#raspberrypi IRC Log

Index

IRC Log for 2011-08-26

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:48] * ukscone (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:49] <DaQatz> Wb ukscone
[9:32] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[10:09] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[11:36] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[14:49] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[15:33] <ukscone> morning all
[16:01] * ctyler_unplugged (~chris@global.proximity.on.ca) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[16:03] * ctyler_unplugged (~chris@global.proximity.on.ca) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:04] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[16:04] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:36] * zz_RobinJ (~RobinJ@unaffiliated/robinj) Quit (*.net *.split)
[16:36] * RobinJ (~RobinJ@unaffiliated/robinj) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:07] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca5672.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:08] <ReggieUK> hi all
[17:09] <ReggieUK> Just seen this project on hackaday, read the forums a bit and thought I'd show my face here :)
[17:11] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:13] <ReggieUK> Rpi looks like a very interesting project, I'm currently working on linux/bootloader stuff for the leapfrog didj/explorer/Lpad consoles
[17:13] <ReggieUK> we're on freenode, #didj
[17:13] <ReggieUK> http://elinux.org/LeapFrog_Pollux_Platform
[17:13] <ReggieUK> it's an arm9 unit running at 393Mhz
[17:15] <ReggieUK> I'm currently working on a method to reflash the didj consoles with an explorer kernel and rootfs without needing a usb to serial adapter
[17:16] <ReggieUK> the rasberry pi project boards look like something I could get a lot of use from.
[17:32] <ukscone> ugh been on hold for 75 minutes so far -- my phone is almost too hot to hold
[17:36] <ReggieUK> :/
[17:46] * RobinJ is now known as zz_RobinJ
[17:53] <ukscone> stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil on hold
[17:53] <ukscone> i need to go to bed in about 12 hours i hope i'm not still on hold
[18:00] <DaQatz> WHo aer you on the phone with?
[18:00] <ukscone> la dah dum di lah di dum di thank for holding please continue to hold and the next availablee operator will be with you dum de dah la ti di dum da da la tee
[18:01] <ukscone> i think i could do a passable impersonation of the hold message now
[18:01] <ukscone> including the music
[18:01] <ukscone> DaQatz: hp
[18:01] <ukscone> :)
[18:01] <ukscone> we paid for 1 day shipping and they took the money but no shipping email or sign of it
[18:02] <DaQatz> Ah, in that case what's taking so long is their leg breakers getting to your house.
[18:02] <Thorn_> hewlett knackered?
[18:02] <ukscone> but we got our order in before thee date they cancelled si just need them to refund the shipping part as they didn't ship it in one day
[18:02] <ukscone> Thorn_: yep
[18:03] <ukscone> if your order was processed after 4am cst on the 22nd tough shit before you are ok
[18:07] <ukscone> oooooo back to the bouncey muzak
[18:08] <ukscone> i have done another complete run through their hold muzak cd
[18:08] <DaQatz> Plus you are now in the noon hour
[18:08] <DaQatz> Se they all went to lunch
[18:14] <ukscone> nope they are in central so they went for 11's
[18:15] <ukscone> wife just emailed and said don't bother to stay on hold but it's the principle of the thing now. i could be the next person to be answerd and as i hang up they could be about to pick up
[18:15] <DaQatz> You don't understand. They take a break on everyones noon hour globally.
[18:15] <ukscone> :)
[18:27] <ukscone> back to the bouncey muzak
[18:27] <ukscone> so it's a 20minute loop for the hold music
[19:28] * rcblob (8b8507ed@gateway/web/freenode/ip.139.133.7.237) has joined #raspberrypi
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[19:30] * traeak (~bolsen@75-151-91-165-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:30] <traeak> wow tons of lurkers
[19:30] <traeak> or is this active?
[19:33] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[19:34] <Thorn_> *continues lurking*
[19:36] <traeak> heh
[19:36] <traeak> i guess not much to do while no one has hands on the hardware
[19:36] <Thorn_> yep
[19:37] <Thorn_> they are purely evil making us wait this long
[19:38] <traeak> actually they are going pretty fast honestly
[19:38] <traeak> dunno how much you followed the pandora
[19:38] <traeak> i'm just curious about the price difference between the 128MB and 256MB
[19:38] <traeak> from what i udnerstand they're pretty close for POP
[19:39] <traeak> then again, it probably makes sense to target model 'A' for general consumers
[19:39] <traeak> and use model 'B' for development purposes
[19:40] <Thorn_> afaik model b is for general consumers
[19:40] <Thorn_> model a is mostly for educational establishments to buy in bulk at a lower price
[20:06] <ukscone> i'm actually thinking of redistributing the cash (that i have to extract from 'er indoors) to be weighted more towards the model a than model b i was thinking of going 2 model a's and 4 model b's i think i might reverse that
[20:11] <ukscone> and spend the difference on beer
[20:12] <traeak> heh
[20:13] <Thorn_> 2 model b's and a model a for testing here :>
[20:13] <Thorn_> to start with, anyway :D
[20:14] <traeak> depends on what you want to use it for then
[20:14] <traeak> if use it for a "game console" that plugs into HDMI
[20:15] <traeak> there's no use for the ethernet necessarily
[20:15] <traeak> actually that's the core of the question: is the ether and extra USB really necessary ?
[20:16] <Thorn_> keyboard & mouse with no usb hub/splitter required
[20:16] <Thorn_> also the model B is a usb hub, which afaik means it can supply powered USB devices, not sure if the model A can do that
[20:16] <traeak> if BT devices weren't so damn expensive ....
[20:16] <traeak> a single BT dongle would suffice for most use
[20:17] <traeak> including proxying thorugh a PC for network capability (bluetooth pan is it?)
[20:18] <datagutt> !logs
[20:18] <datagutt> RaspberryPiBot: logs
[20:18] <datagutt> hm
[20:18] <traeak> already been discussed?
[20:18] <datagutt> !help
[20:19] <traeak> i guesds the 2 usb's would be required for "bootstrapping" BT devices
[20:19] <Thorn_> no idea
[20:20] <traeak> oh well
[20:20] * Thorn_ waits patiently for the q3 video they were supposedly uploading 'near the end of this week'
[20:20] <traeak> exactly
[20:21] <traeak> IMHO this is entirely too cool, the rpi i mean, hoping it's a game changer in general
[20:22] <Thorn_> Yep, compared to this, all those other smallform boards/devices are ridiculous in price
[20:22] <Thorn_> And this is a dream for letting the hobbyist add features himself :)
[20:22] <Thorn_> almost bought a dreamplug for ??150 ;p
[20:24] <traeak> exactly
[20:24] <traeak> IMHO it's real commiditization
[20:31] <traeak> i thoguth the ND was cool when it was announced but i'm pretty convinced its pure vapor
[20:37] <atts> can you redistribute the boards (with modifications) as another product?
[20:40] <traeak> probably post that to the forums...you mean resale basically
[20:40] <traeak> i'm guessing large orders would be scrutinized
[20:41] <atts> ok, i'll post to the forums
[20:42] <atts> i was thinking if it was repackaged as a retro game console
[20:42] <traeak> sounds logical
[20:42] <traeak> that would require breaking out some of the pins ?
[20:43] <atts> not sure, just thinking about it
[20:44] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:44] <atts> if it has video and audio out, and usb ports for controllers, what would the pins be needed for?
[20:44] <traeak> boards (with modifications)
[20:44] <traeak> that's quoting your question :-p
[20:45] <traeak> sorry i didn't directly ask what you meant by modifications
[20:45] <atts> ah true
[20:45] <atts> i guess in my mind the mod was adding a case and controllers
[20:45] <atts> but that's not really modifying the board itself
[20:46] <traeak> that's integration
[20:47] <atts> good to know
[20:48] <traeak> which makes me wonder if the "secure" part of the SDHC spec can be used to emulate flash carts
[20:52] <traeak> that's not interesting to me personally for now
[21:03] * ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-168-72-125.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:04] <ShiftPlusOne> 21 people. Not bad =). Good to know I'll have place to bug people when things don't work the way I expect them to.
[21:04] <Thorn_> heh
[21:05] <traeak> place to mostly bitch about why these aren't shipping yet
[21:05] <ShiftPlusOne> heh, I am sure people are more reasonable than that (for now)
[21:06] <ShiftPlusOne> I am still patiently waiting for my Pandora I ordered 3 years ago!
[21:06] <traeak> heh
[21:06] <ShiftPlusOne> Do you see me bitching? Well yes, but I normally don't.
[21:06] <traeak> i referenced that above b4 you came here, these guys are frankly "pretty fast" in comparison
[21:06] <traeak> i'm guessing they must have broadcom's cooperation
[21:07] <ShiftPlusOne> and industry experience
[21:07] <ShiftPlusOne> for the Pandora guys it was a learning experience... everyone at Raspberry Pi seems to know exactly what they're doing already
[21:08] <Thorn_> Wondering if they'll be able to handle the initial demand on the first batch they sell :D
[21:08] <traeak> IMHO the pandora guys overestimated the iomportance of a hardware keyboard
[21:09] <ShiftPlusOne> I think for a device like theirs it is fairly important. It's a good selling point and a lot of people would complain if they didn't make that effort.
[21:09] <traeak> Thorn_: be interesting to know how many they plan to run
[21:09] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, yea, I've wondered that too. =/
[21:10] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: the pandora keyboard made the case hugely more complex, and the pcb as well
[21:10] <traeak> the plastics i think were killer bad for pandora
[21:11] <ShiftPlusOne> Plastics were the initial delay... now it's their PCB manufacturer and faulty boards
[21:11] <traeak> which are huge partly due to supporting the keyboard
[21:11] <traeak> amongst other things
[21:12] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, hopefully we'll be able to snatch up the first batch.. I expect their mailing list to be smaller than the first batch, so if you're on there you should have an advantage.
[21:12] <traeak> anyways, i feel kind of bad for those guys
[21:12] <traeak> any announcements on how big they anticipate the first batch to be?
[21:12] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: Yeah I joined the mailing list... never had a mail though :P
[21:12] <Thorn_> traeak: don't think they've mentioned it, but considering their charity standpoint i guess it will be something like 50k runs
[21:13] <Thorn_> considering they still need large orders to get the manufacturing price down
[21:14] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, they haven't sent any out yet, it's a "just in case" thing I guess.
[21:15] <ShiftPlusOne> (the emails... not the boards.... obviously)
[21:16] <traeak> Thorn_: i think their backer has lots of $$$ to bankroll runs like that
[21:17] <ShiftPlusOne> Anyone have experience with compiling linux kernels for ARM?
[21:17] * ShiftPlusOne looks at ukscone
[21:17] <traeak> not here
[21:18] <traeak> :-p
[21:18] <traeak> openpandora, etc
[21:19] <traeak> and 256MB ram is an obscene amount for something like the 'pi', but no complaining here
[21:19] <traeak> how much more does 256 cost than 128 ?
[21:19] <Thorn_> $5-10
[21:20] <traeak> POP module :-p
[21:23] <ShiftPlusOne> Any idea why linux's menuconfig doesn't have the ARM1176JZF-S support option for Versatile boards?
[21:24] <ShiftPlusOne> ARM lists it as an option, but the kernel only has ARM1176JZF-S for RealView
[21:25] * ShiftPlusOne looks at ukscone again
[21:26] <ShiftPlusOne> Ah well
[21:27] * fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:28] <ShiftPlusOne> Hello, fuzzyone... you know a lot about the linux kernel, dont' you?
[21:28] <fuzzyone> not a thing :)
[21:29] <traeak> pandora guys, dingoo folks (although they are messing with mips)
[21:29] <ShiftPlusOne> I am disappointed... =(
[21:29] <ShiftPlusOne> ah yeah... the 100s of other embedded channels I could try.
[21:29] <traeak> hehe
[21:42] <ShiftPlusOne> OK, nobody knows. Trial and error it is then.
[21:44] <ShiftPlusOne> ARGH! MIIIIINGLE!!!! >=/ they've removed the "mark all read" button D=
[21:44] <ShiftPlusOne> Anyone else have a problem with the forum not tracking read/unread posts?
[21:52] <Thorn_> yep
[21:55] <ShiftPlusOne> How do you use the forum then?
[21:56] <Thorn_> I correlate the time of the last post in a thread vs the last time I visisted ;p
[21:56] <ShiftPlusOne> lol, good idea.
[22:01] <mdavey> Hands up if you've got an Alpha board
[22:01] <Thorn_> Sorry, I stole one on my trip down to england
[22:01] <Thorn_> :D
[22:01] <mdavey> Anyone else?
[22:02] <Thorn_> I thought nobody had alphaboards apart from the broadcom devs :D
[22:02] <mdavey> Bueller? Bueller?
[22:02] <ShiftPlusOne> lol
[22:03] <mdavey> Now keep your hands up if you've actually edited http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoardBeginners
[22:04] * mdavey looks at Thorn_
[22:04] <ShiftPlusOne> http://elinux.org/index.php?title=RaspberryPiBoardBeginners&action=history
[22:04] <mdavey> ...And I don't even have an Alpha board ;)
[22:05] <ShiftPlusOne> I can make stuff up and present it as fact if that will help
[22:05] <mdavey> No point. That's how I made the pages in the first place ;)
[22:06] <mdavey> Okay, rant over :D
[22:06] <ShiftPlusOne> lol
[22:06] <ShiftPlusOne> mkcard.txt should probably be mkcard.sh
[22:07] <mdavey> And I don't mean to single Thorn_ out - it applies to the lurkers equally.
[22:07] <ShiftPlusOne> Are you suggesting more people should be contributing to the wiki?
[22:07] <Thorn_> Actually, I'm not sure what you're getting at all
[22:09] <Thorn_> I mean, I missed what you were saying
[22:09] <mdavey> I'm just teasing really. But it would be nice to get to the point where there is a bunch of prople regularly contributing to the wiki.
[22:10] <ShiftPlusOne> ... the board isn't out.... what's there to contribute?
[22:10] <ReggieUK> idle banter?
[22:10] <ShiftPlusOne> I am working on getting a good distro development environment by testing out various tools out there. Maybe once I am happy with my setup I can do a tutorial or something.
[22:11] <Thorn_> There's probably a fair bit that can be added to the wiki even without the boards
[22:11] <ReggieUK> is there anyone on this channel that's played with a board/involved in the dev?
[22:12] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey you're from broadcom, aren't you?
[22:12] <mdavey> well presumably several of the alpha board people have successfully got their boards booting, connected serial console, etc. It looks like a few have successfully compiled apps - either directly on the board or using a cross compiler.
[22:12] <mdavey> Nope, I'm not from Broadcom.
[22:13] <mdavey> And personally I'm finding it hard to keep up with the drip-fed information being posted on the forums by Liz, Eben and Gert and getting it copied into the wiki. I'm sure I've missed some juicy stuff.
[22:13] <ShiftPlusOne> Ah ok, I thought all the mods were people from broadcom
[22:14] <mdavey> I *think* all the Admins are. The mods are volunteers.
[22:15] <ShiftPlusOne> got it
[22:15] <mdavey> (or the Admins are R.Pi people - there are R.Pi people who don't work for Broadcom - like Jack and David)
[22:15] <Thorn_> It would be neat if the broadcom guys/guys with the alphaboards were more open on all the cool stuff they are doing with the alpha boards
[22:16] <ShiftPlusOne> heh, I have no idea who the people involved are other than Liz and Eben.
[22:16] <ReggieUK> what's the major toolchain/ide that these will be used with?
[22:16] <Thorn_> - the terrible grammar & puntuation in that sentence :D
[22:16] <ShiftPlusOne> heh "broadcom guys/guys"
[22:16] <Thorn_> yeah, i failed english ;p
[22:17] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, for what purpose?
[22:17] <ReggieUK> "broadcom guys/guys with alphaboards" english was fine, ShiftPlusOne's understanding of context sucks ;)
[22:17] <mdavey> ReggieUK: I dunno. IDE will probably be up to individuals. I'm getting the toolchain will be something built by Broadcom and based on GNU.
[22:18] <ReggieUK> for compiling the kernel, rootfs and any apps./libs that would be necessary
[22:18] <mdavey> s/getting/guessing/
[22:18] <ShiftPlusOne> ah ok, I read it as if it was meant to be "broadcom guys/gals" like he was trying to be all gender inclusive
[22:18] <mdavey> yea, so did I :D
[22:19] <ReggieUK> We have the option to use 3-4 toolchains for building stuff but the IDE in general for me is gedit and kate :D
[22:19] <Thorn_> geany :D
[22:19] <ShiftPlusOne> I like gedit for basic things, otherwise I'll jump into codeblocks or kdevelop
[22:20] <ShiftPlusOne> *geany
[22:20] <ReggieUK> sorry, I should add that I do some amateur dev. work on leapfrog kids consoles
[22:20] <ShiftPlusOne> I keep writing gedit when I mean geany.
[22:20] <mdavey> The named trustees are David Braben, Jack Lang, Pete Lomas, Robert Mullins, Alan Mycroft and Eben Upton. (http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2011/05/26/51140/in-depth-raspberry-pi-the-computer-on-a-stick.htm)
[22:21] <ReggieUK> for the most part we've settled on using a pre-compiled ridgerun toolchain
[22:21] <ReggieUK> which is gcc based
[22:22] <ReggieUK> leapfrog are really neat in so much that they actually provide us with GPL source code for most of the console (except their proprietary crud (Brio, their gui system)).
[22:23] <ReggieUK> I think that is probably one of the main reasons I'm interested in the R-pi
[22:23] <ReggieUK> oh and that incredible price point
[22:23] <ReggieUK> and the fact that they named the models after my first computer
[22:23] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, I've always wanted something like a beagleboard or a gumstix board, but didn't want to pay so much for them.
[22:24] <ReggieUK> yrah, the price of a cheap PC for a dev board just doesn't cut it for me I'm afraid
[22:24] <mdavey> David works for a games company (Frontier Developments). Jack is a serial entrepreneur and lecturer, ex-Acorn. Rob and Alan are lecturers. Pete works for Norcott (an Electronics Design company).
[22:24] <ShiftPlusOne> I was under the impression it was just a bunch of guys at broadcom who decided to work on a side-project.
[22:25] <mdavey> Liz and Eben work for Broadcom and Eben lectures also.
[22:25] <ReggieUK> I'm incredibly glad they did
[22:25] <mdavey> Rob is also a Broadcom employee.
[22:25] <ReggieUK> these leapfrog consoles are ok, arm9 393Mhz units, 32MB ram and 256MB nand
[22:25] <ShiftPlusOne> I wonder if Broadcom could claim that all of Eben's work, for example, actually belongs to them.
[22:26] <mdavey> Gert I think is a Broadcom contractor but I could be wrong about that.
[22:26] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, ukscone mentioned Zipit Z2, you might want to check them out... they're practically handing them out.
[22:27] <ReggieUK> meh, sore point :)
[22:27] <ReggieUK> I've been in contact with the guy that's selling them for peanuts in the states
[22:27] <ReggieUK> and the shipping costs double the price
[22:27] <mdavey> I believe that Broadcom is one of the investors in Raspberry Pi.
[22:27] <ReggieUK> so I'd really rather save my money and buy 2 model B's
[22:28] <ReggieUK> $18 each + $20 shipping
[22:28] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, ah ok. 'cause Steve Wozniak had to make sure HP didn't want to claim the Apple 1 as their own before him and Steve started selling them properly.
[22:29] <ShiftPlusOne> (the second Steve being Jobs)
[22:30] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, ah ok, yeah I ordered 5 I think and paid as much in shipping
[22:31] <mdavey> Liz has just posted on the Forums
[22:31] <ReggieUK> link?
[22:32] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, raspberrypi.org >.>
[22:32] <mdavey> ...from a Raspberry Pi! http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=254.0
[22:32] <ReggieUK> :D
[22:32] <ReggieUK> yeah, sorry, reflex ask on the url :D
[22:33] * just (Nick@71-35-197-222.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:35] <traeak> z2 is connectivity challenged :-p
[22:36] <ShiftPlusOne> I barely even know what the z2 is meant to be, but it's a good way for me to get into embedded linux.
[22:37] <traeak> gotcha....it's pretty screen limited
[22:37] <ShiftPlusOne> psh, who needs a screen when you have imagination.
[22:38] <ReggieUK> it's a little 300mhz arm 9 unit with sd and a keyboard, 3.5" screen, usb client
[22:38] <traeak> i guess that couldbe enough to screw with OS development
[22:38] <ReggieUK> might scrape a gba emulator out of it
[22:38] <traeak> usb client i'm assuming allows it to act sort of lke a jtab ?
[22:38] <traeak> jtag ?
[22:39] <ShiftPlusOne> I've seen it run a NES emulator at full speed as well
[22:39] <traeak> controls are lacking
[22:39] <ReggieUK> it's a little IM client with sms gateway stuff for free messaging (us only I'm betting though)
[22:39] <ReggieUK> nah, usb client will allow it to use 'usb gadget' to connect to PCs
[22:40] <ReggieUK> so you can make the host PC think it's an ethernet connection or uart (or both), or midi, or printer
[22:40] <ReggieUK> or a mass storage device
[22:40] <ReggieUK> you could probably setup gdb across it, so not jtag but still useful for debugging
[22:41] * just (Nick@71-35-197-222.slkc.qwest.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:42] <ReggieUK> I thought it would be useful on the rpi, with g_ether setup you could do an NFS root, boot the kernel from SD and run the rootfs via a network
[22:42] <ReggieUK> which is nice
[22:43] <ReggieUK> anyone got any idea on theoretical transfer rates from the SD card?
[22:48] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has left #raspberrypi
[22:49] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[22:50] <ReggieUK> 'Our obvious competitors are devices like Beagleboard and Arduino. We???re cheaper than Beagleboard, and offer better processing and multimedia capabilities than either. Our interfacing is weaker than Arduino, but we???ll be addressing this through add-on boards.'
[22:51] <ShiftPlusOne> Ah, interesting
[22:51] <ReggieUK> I'd say that the interfacing on the rpi matches the arduino or at least it's very very close
[22:51] <ShiftPlusOne> I thought they'd leave the whole add-on board stuff entirely up to the community.
[22:51] <ReggieUK> might be missing some libs? but 16 gpio, + spi, ethernet and usb = better than normal arduinos and comparable to arduino uno
[22:53] <ReggieUK> + the amount of ram and SD makes it a 'duino killer as long as there is the software is easy to get to grips with for programming the gpio/spi etc
[22:55] <ShiftPlusOne> When it comes to using r-pi instead of arduino, "overkill" comes to mind. Then I remember that it's somehow cheaper
[22:56] <ShiftPlusOne> my brain refuses to wrap around the $25 price for what it is.
[22:57] <traeak> exactly
[22:58] <traeak> finally commodity open stuff
[22:58] <ReggieUK> not sure if you've messed with arduino or not but my biggest thing is the 20Mhz cpu and the lack of flash/ram on them, so all of a sudden the RPI seems like you've got stuff in reserve rather than overkill
[22:58] <traeak> rpi can be a general computer but IMHO it's an awesome general purpose appliance system
[22:59] <ShiftPlusOne> For everything I've done with arduino, it has been more than enough. I've had to use mbed once though.
[22:59] <ShiftPlusOne> (mbed is pretty awesome)
[22:59] <traeak> and i'm a scientific applications developer
[22:59] <traeak> not embedded guy
[23:00] <ReggieUK> I'm an amateur with electronics and programming in general, still feel quite n00bish even after a couple of years messing with this stuff
[23:01] <ShiftPlusOne> I am pretty much a hobo (student)
[23:01] <ReggieUK> 1/2 of the stuff I've done on arduino, it's coped with but there really are things that I'd like to do that the arudino just couldn't cope with, no matter how hard I wish
[23:01] <traeak> well now there's hope for an MS free future :-p
[23:01] <traeak> how much ar the arduinos?
[23:01] <Thorn_> an ARM and a leg
[23:02] <ShiftPlusOne> abou $35
[23:02] <ShiftPlusOne> you can get various clones, or make your own though
[23:03] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, that's 'cause you're a noob who uses bloated languages like C instead of pure assembly, clearly.
[23:03] <ShiftPlusOne> (sarcasm)
[23:03] <ReggieUK> you can get the older arduinos (pre uno) for between ??10-??15
[23:04] <ReggieUK> ShiftPlusOne, you're bang on the money actually :)
[23:04] <Thorn_> assembly is for n00bs, real men find a way to write hardware drivers in java
[23:04] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, don't even joke about that! Java is evil!
[23:05] <ReggieUK> but if you can come up with a an arduino that will run a 320x240 24bit lcd and a usb webcam, do image processing and control some motors and temperature sensors I'd love to see your code ;)
[23:07] <ShiftPlusOne> I wouldn't even attempt the usb webcam and image processing parts.
[23:08] <mdavey> ReggieUK what was that quote from re competitors to R.Pi
[23:08] <ShiftPlusOne> (...unless that was a joke that went over my head.)
[23:12] <ReggieUK> mdavey, http://journaltec.com/2011/08/04/raspberry-pi-interview-with-eben-upton.html
[23:13] <ReggieUK> Interview with Raspberry Pi Foundation Director, Eben Upton
[23:13] <mdavey> thx
[23:13] <ReggieUK> about 2/3rds down the page
[23:14] <mdavey> re transfer rates, the SD card association defines classes of card.
[23:14] <traeak> class10 is fastest ?
[23:15] <mdavey> class 2 is 2MB/s. class 10 is 10MB/s.
[23:16] <mdavey> There is a company marketing class 16.
[23:16] <traeak> no matter
[23:16] <ShiftPlusOne> wouldn't there be a hardware limit or are we just limited by the card itself?
[23:16] <traeak> it's almost insane to be having gigabytes worth of OS + packages
[23:17] <Thorn_> Nah
[23:17] <Thorn_> I can see opensource game projects that use OpenGL GLSL renders going 'Not got a computer fast enough to run our game? Buy one here for $25!'
[23:17] <Thorn_> renderers*
[23:17] <traeak> exactly
[23:18] <mdavey> You can typically read 8x faster than you can write. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital#Speed_Class_Rating
[23:18] <traeak> i'll be eevil here, but how difficult is it to utilize the "S" part of the SD card?
[23:18] <Thorn_> With the release of the idtech4 source, I bet the raspberry pi can run doom3 :D
[23:18] <traeak> i guess you need a license or something
[23:20] <ReggieUK> I was asking about SD speed on the PI itself, forget the card speeds, that's down to the user to sort out :)
[23:20] <Thorn_> one would assume that bandwidth between the sdcard reader and the processor is not limited
[23:22] <ReggieUK> ok, so NFS root could be a viable use and probably wouldn't show much of a performance hit depending on the SD cards used (for comparison)
[23:23] <ReggieUK> couple of switches and the whole class could run their pi off a central server box
[23:24] <traeak> not sure how that might be more useful than just an old PC lab
[23:24] <traeak> hmm
[23:25] <ReggieUK> if we're talking electronics interfacing then it's a cost thing + connectivity
[23:25] <traeak> yeah there is that
[23:25] <ReggieUK> or they could palm off their code for compiling to the server, learn how to do distributed processing
[23:26] <traeak> i'm not familiar with teaching an interfacing class is all
[23:26] <ReggieUK> just a myriad of stuff that you could just play with
[23:26] <ReggieUK> I have no idea about teaching stuff either
[23:26] <ReggieUK> but just seeing ideas for these little units
[23:27] <ShiftPlusOne> Do you guys think that r-pi will actually take off as an educational tool rather than a hobbyist toy?
[23:27] * Ross_ (~ross@188-221-247-176.zone12.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:27] <ReggieUK> I think that all depends on media penetration
[23:28] <ReggieUK> I looked at the bbc article on the rpi, which was ok but the thing that struck me were the comments section
[23:28] <ReggieUK> they didn't seem to 'get it'
[23:28] <ReggieUK> then again, I'm guessing a lot of them wouldn't get arduino either
[23:29] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, that's what I mean. It's an excellent idea, but I don't think that it's easy to 'sell'.
[23:29] <ReggieUK> show a few r-pi's messing with rockets, uavs, lasers, rc stuff and you might get the kids interested
[23:29] <ReggieUK> but just showing them some blinkys won't cut it
[23:29] <ShiftPlusOne> it's easy to sell to hobbyists 'course, but I don't know about teachers
[23:30] <ReggieUK> well, from what I read of brabens articles, in the UK, EE/programming just does not figure in the standard curriculum
[23:30] <ShiftPlusOne> hell, even the Slashdot crowd is pretty harsh about it calling it "a crippled version of a PC"
[23:31] <ReggieUK> we got ICT which is just teaching kids how to use office
[23:32] <traeak> yes to hobbyests absolutely a sale
[23:33] <traeak> nothing wrong with a "crippled" PC....appliances are great
[23:33] <ReggieUK> indeed
[23:33] <ShiftPlusOne> Hmm, I never had an option of engineering or programming at school. In primary school, we played around with Logo and I know that some high schools offer engineering as a subject. Also, we had a few classes in combinational logic and basic robotics (using pre-made kits). So yeah, schools could really improve on the EE and programming side of things.
[23:34] <traeak> for OS development you can run a system on a VM
[23:34] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, it was more along the lines of the device being useless and students being taught 'wrong'.
[23:34] <ReggieUK> I guess slashdot aren't impressed unless it's using 12l of liquid nitrogen a second to cool it
[23:34] <ShiftPlusOne> who said what about OS development? =D
[23:35] <ReggieUK> we have plenty of OS's so we're really talking about driver development
[23:35] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: when i had lower education it was more basic stuff...although i did take a course in typing and another in programming
[23:35] <traeak> I mean stuff like "write your own basic scheduler"
[23:35] <traeak> i forget the name of what was used
[23:35] <ReggieUK> when I was at school we actually got to do programming but my son just doesn't get to do it
[23:36] <ReggieUK> the thing with the pi is it's not far off what the kids have in their hands every time they text someone
[23:36] <traeak> on an apple IIe i learned to overwrite all the memory with a for loop :-p
[23:37] <ReggieUK> but no one calls a mobile phone a 'crippled pc'
[23:37] <ReggieUK> it only seems crippled because someone didn't write some software
[23:37] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, sure, but nobody is trying to get mobile phones into the classrooms.
[23:37] <ShiftPlusOne> apart from the students 'course.
[23:38] <ReggieUK> no but portable devices are undeniably a big part of every day life, so a route in to schools might be focusing on the stuff kids use every day
[23:38] <ShiftPlusOne> hmm
[23:39] <mdavey> i think the key is primary schools. Did you watch the bbc click R.Pi video? With the section on kodu
[23:39] <ReggieUK> nope, didn't see that one
[23:39] <mdavey> kodu: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/
[23:40] <mdavey> BBC Click video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/9504208.stm
[23:41] <traeak> provide "basic" or something on this thing
[23:42] <traeak> LCD monitors aren't 25USD cheap
[23:43] <ReggieUK> depends what size you're going for
[23:43] <ReggieUK> http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Ego-China-Electronics/3-2-TFT-LCD-/_i.html?_fsub=1941344014&_sid=500403464&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
[23:44] <ShiftPlusOne> Wouldn't quite call those monitors
[23:44] <ReggieUK> :)
[23:45] <ReggieUK> it's another opportunity to use them elsewhere
[23:45] <ShiftPlusOne> though I did just order a cheap keyring digital photo frame to try it out as a display
[23:45] <ReggieUK> was that from the forum post about them?
[23:45] <ShiftPlusOne> yup
[23:46] <ShiftPlusOne> I've seen them mentioned ages ago on hackaday, but didn't give it much thought
[23:46] <traeak> handheld raspberry pi carriage :-p
[23:46] <ReggieUK> sprite_tm does arm and other dev work
[23:46] <ShiftPlusOne> with the r-pi though it might actually be pretty useful.
[23:48] <traeak> watching that video
[23:49] <traeak> not sure where they'll find resources to do something like kudo for the rpi
[23:49] <mdavey> no. But perhaps an Open Source clone will emerge in time.
[23:50] <traeak> to get this adopted into classrooms someone has to present a prototype working cirriculum
[23:50] <traeak> not just hope it happens
[23:51] <traeak> that probably requires some serious resources
[23:51] <Thorn_> Even with one it probably won't happen. UK education & curriculum is as stale as last months bread
[23:51] <ukscone> this is the only type of hurricane i like http://birch.co/post/9424098950/how-to-make-a-proper-hurricane
[23:52] <traeak> the rpi will be a huge huge hit
[23:52] <traeak> just not in the way the envision
[23:52] <traeak> however
[23:53] <traeak> if you can get a gaming console into everyone's hands that's less than the cost of a modern game itself
[23:53] <traeak> that "base platform"
[23:53] <traeak> could result in critical mass for the rpi
[23:53] <traeak> which would maybe result in it being the "goto" platform for hobbyist game development
[23:54] <traeak> get something like pocket legends on it and there's a killer app
[23:55] <traeak> anyways
[23:55] <mdavey> I really think we could be seeing a return to the 80s - children actually doing programming; with R.Pi being present in most homes with primary school-age children
[23:55] <ReggieUK> I think you could be right there traeak
[23:55] <ReggieUK> that really p's me off though
[23:56] <ReggieUK> that you have to lure people in with free gaming
[23:56] <Thorn_> Can't see it. Society is too focussed on simplicity atm
[23:56] <traeak> most home have a PC already though don't they ?
[23:57] <ReggieUK> kids want a decent job, programming should give them slightly better than average chances
[23:57] <traeak> at least understanding of it
[23:57] <mdavey> my concern is that it will mainly get traction in middle class tech-saavy homes.
[23:57] <traeak> not sure programming is *that* great a job
[23:57] <Thorn_> i don't know any kid that wants a decent job anymore
[23:57] <ReggieUK> some homes do have PCs but not all do
[23:57] <ReggieUK> my son wants a decent job
[23:57] <Thorn_> you can get far more off the dole/jairo than any junior tech/programming position.
[23:57] <mdavey> like those electrical/electronics kits you get from maplin or Innovation magazine.
[23:58] <traeak> but honestly the rpi is a superior university tool
[23:58] <ReggieUK> yeah but the dole won't get exponentially better as the years go on
[23:58] <Thorn_> neither do jobs
[23:58] <ReggieUK> you won't get a wage rise for obesity programming
[23:58] <ReggieUK> eep, remove the programming from that last statement
[23:58] <Thorn_> We already keep hearing stories of workplaces that refuse to recruit kids that have only just finished modern education, because the education system is so bad :)
[23:58] <traeak> in the UK even ?
[23:59] <Thorn_> yes
[23:59] <traeak> or just the US (where it's super super super shitty)
[23:59] <ReggieUK> sure which is why I encourage my child to ask for more work as soon as he's finished what they've given him
[23:59] <traeak> or perhaps you spend more time filling in the educational holes yourself

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