#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2011-08-29

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:01] * ccxvi (~tsuuyou@99-130-104-157.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[0:02] * ccxvi (~tsuuyou@99-130-104-157.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:03] * ccxvi (~tsuuyou@99-130-104-157.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[0:15] * frafra (~frafra@net-188-153-21-176.cust.dsl.teletu.it) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[0:26] * ahven (~ahven@jutukas.saarlane.ee) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:27] <Thorn_> did anyone get that rootfs up for qemu? ;p
[0:27] <ahven> hello :)
[0:27] <Thorn_> hi
[0:28] <ahven> I thought this place would be crowded already but guess that will change when the device becomes available to the general public :)
[0:33] <ahven> aha, the rootfs question is pretty new
[1:00] <ReggieUK> if you've got the necessary libs/modules/scripts/busybox, can't you just mkdir all the necessary folders, give them the correct permissions and that's your rootfs?
[1:00] <ukscone> ReggieUK: sorry was napping -- nope i just checked it ran -- i didn't build it for me but a friend so didn't bother checking it and are you sure that the sky isn't wrong?
[1:01] <ReggieUK> oh my bad, I was upside down when I looked at the sky... ;)
[1:01] <ReggieUK> If you get the opportunity, can you ask your friend what he thinks of it?
[1:02] <ReggieUK> tell him you won't be annoyed if he says it's weird :D
[1:02] <ukscone> well he's french so he might not think it's weird
[1:03] <ReggieUK> not sure whether that's a joke or your misunderstanding of space?
[1:03] <ukscone> a bit of both
[1:03] <ukscone> ok aboriginal linux built, now onto scratchbox2
[1:04] <ReggieUK> for the former, hehehehehe, for the latter, shouldn't matter where you are on the planet, the constellations will always draw the same outline, it might be a different way up or you won't necessarily see the same constellations but their shapes will be uniform
[1:06] <ukscone> depends on which noxious substances you have ingested
[1:06] <ReggieUK> would have to be some prettty strong noxious substances
[1:07] <ukscone> theakstan's old peculiar
[1:07] <ReggieUK> how old and how peculiar?
[1:32] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:33] <IT_Sean> 'ello?
[1:34] <Thorn_> velcome
[1:37] <IT_Sean> o/
[1:53] <ReggieUK> applefritter, sounds tasty, or is it a euphamism?
[1:56] <IT_Sean> It's a vintage Apple Computer community.
[1:56] <ReggieUK> ahh
[2:06] <ReggieUK> time for bed I think, g'night all
[2:16] * diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[2:26] * IT_Sean is rahter anxious for RaspPi release... Can't wait to get a hold of one.
[2:26] <IT_Sean> *rather
[2:29] * jimerickson (~jimericks@97-125-248-104.desm.qwest.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[2:30] * _Lucretia_ (~munkee@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:30] <_Lucretia_> is the arm on this, big or little endian?
[2:36] * jimerickson (~jimericks@97-125-248-104.desm.qwest.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:38] <IT_Sean> hawha?
[2:39] <Thorn_> we dunno where it ends
[2:39] <Thorn_> bad joke? :P
[2:40] <_Lucretia_> bi-?
[2:40] <_Lucretia_> bring back big-endian!! :D
[2:47] * IT_Sean has noooo idea what you are on about
[2:48] <Thorn_> IT_Sean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
[2:49] <ukscone> w00t! looks like my build of git qemu is working with the aboriginal rootfs
[2:49] <ukscone> (and kernel)
[2:50] <ukscone> using the 1178 cpu
[2:50] <ukscone> 1176 even
[2:54] <IT_Sean> oooh
[2:56] <ukscone> ok two development environments working (in theory) now onto the third
[2:58] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: off)
[4:44] * atts (~adam@146-115-165-244.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com) has left #raspberrypi
[5:54] * spvensko (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:11] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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[8:24] * spvensko (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
[8:31] <ahven> hmm, website down with database error?
[8:38] <ahven> and up again
[8:46] * spvensko (~spvensko@ has joined #raspberrypi
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[9:59] * ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-168-72-125.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[10:01] <mdavey> ukscone: excellent progress!
[10:02] <mdavey> anyone awake?
[10:02] <mdavey> Roku2 has the same processor as R.Pi: http://www.roku.com/
[10:05] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[10:06] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:07] * ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-168-118-249.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:16] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5ac9ad24.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[10:17] <ahven> hmm, why does that remote have a strip attached to it? :)
[10:21] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5ac9ad24.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:28] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5ac9ad24.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[10:32] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5ac9ad32.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:42] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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[10:45] * spvensko (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
[10:55] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, how are the dev environments coming along?
[10:59] * diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) has joined #raspberrypi
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[11:09] <mdavey> I wonder if the problems on the website last night were because of the slashdotting. The site held up okay the last four times.
[11:20] * diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[11:23] <ahven> it was ok fine yesterday, but it was down for a bit 3 hours ago
[11:23] * zz_RobinJ is now known as RobinJ
[11:25] * spvensko (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
[12:20] <ReggieUK> g'morning all
[12:25] <ahven> morning
[12:53] <ShiftPlusOne> 'morning
[13:00] <jzu> morning too (although it's technically pm in my spacetime region :-)
[13:03] <ShiftPlusOne> unless you're a time traveller you could just say space region. >.>
[13:03] <amandarn> afternoon'
[13:04] <amandarn> Then...
[13:04] <amandarn> Hello, past people !
[13:05] <ShiftPlusOne> Actually, I think I am from the future here... it's 9pm on monday here.
[13:06] <amandarn> Australia ?
[13:06] <ShiftPlusOne> yup
[13:12] <mdavey> didn't realise you were located in Australia, ShiftPlusOne
[13:13] <ShiftPlusOne> Does that... change things between us? =(
[13:14] <mdavey> no :D But what is your perception of R.Pi - are the Aussie press giving it a lot of coverage? I'm located in Cambridge so it is pretty hard to gauge just how Cambridge-centric or UK-centric the project is perceived as being.
[13:15] <mdavey> Certainly it is getting great UK press coverage.
[13:17] <ShiftPlusOne> What sort of press coverage are you talking about?
[13:18] <mdavey> any really. The tech sections of a couple of national newspapers have covered R.Pi, its been on BBC news and on a lot of the online tech. magazines.
[13:21] <ShiftPlusOne> I can't say I've seen it mentioned anywhere
[13:21] <ShiftPlusOne> news.com.au doesn't find anything and neither does Sydney Morning Herald (which normally has a decent technology section)
[13:23] <mdavey> That's interesting. Presumably you didn't get a chance to meet up with Eben when he was over you way a couple of weeks ago?
[13:23] <mdavey> This is the only article I cound find: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/397693/q_eben_upton_from_raspberry_pi_foundation
[13:24] <ShiftPlusOne> Nope, I had no idea he was here.
[13:25] <mdavey> I love that they call R.Pi a "London-based charity" ;)
[13:25] <ShiftPlusOne> isn't it?
[13:26] <mdavey> Nope, its in Cambridge, about 60 miles away.
[13:27] <ShiftPlusOne> that's walk-about distance
[13:27] <mdavey> yea yea
[13:27] <mdavey> About 18 hours on foot.
[13:28] <mdavey> ...according to Google ;)
[13:33] <ShiftPlusOne> UK is a lot better in that sense. You see a problem and you want to fix it. Australians are just "meh, it'll be alright" about it.
[13:35] <ShiftPlusOne> I also think the universities are more concerned with 'research' to get more money from the Government rather than education.
[13:41] <mdavey> I think it is more the cambridge geek mentality than UK. People that have been trained to fix problems tend to try to apply that everywhere. That's why its dangerous to have support engineers idle and why they tend to be a bit rubbish at relationships.
[13:44] <ShiftPlusOne> ah ok, I know nothing about Cambridge.
[14:00] <ShiftPlusOne> In that last video, Eben was talking about how their are primarily interested in old TVs. TVs with HDMI inputs aren't that common. Is there something I am missing?
[14:02] <ReggieUK> yeah, these things are for developing nations too
[14:02] <ReggieUK> Hd didn't hit the 3rd world properly yet
[14:03] <ReggieUK> it's about education, not necessarily the latest whiz bang technology
[14:03] <ReggieUK> these things could well end up being the $100 laptops that were touted a few years back
[14:04] <ReggieUK> not quite as portable as you need a TV from somewhere
[14:04] <ShiftPlusOne> HD hasn't his our hose properly yet! I don't have anything with HDMI input.
[14:05] <ReggieUK> there ya go then, exactly his point
[14:06] <ShiftPlusOne> No, he didn't mention the HDMI thing, he was just talking about the abundance of TVs. I am asking why that matters since those TVs can't be used with raspi.
[14:07] <ReggieUK> which tv's can't be used with the raspi?
[14:08] <ShiftPlusOne> the ones in abundance
[14:08] <ReggieUK> eh?
[14:08] <ReggieUK> anything in the last 10-15 years wil have composite on it
[14:08] <ShiftPlusOne> the ones without HDMI inputs
[14:08] <ReggieUK> if it's got a scart socket then that can be adapted too
[14:09] <ReggieUK> raspi has composite video out and hdmi out
[14:09] <ShiftPlusOne> oh.... =D
[14:09] <ShiftPlusOne> I always thought it was HDMI only
[14:09] <ReggieUK> so you're covered dude and you don't need anything special to run it
[14:09] <ReggieUK> even a 7/10" lcd off ebay will do it
[14:10] <ReggieUK> I've got a wharfedale portable dvd player that has composite in
[14:11] <ShiftPlusOne> isn't the hardware required to get composite output fairly bulky?
[14:11] <ReggieUK> how do you mean bulky?
[14:12] <ShiftPlusOne> I see the connector on the alpha board and there's pretty much nothing around it
[14:12] <ShiftPlusOne> Not complaining 'course, but that's why I was mislead... I didn't think you could get composite output on such a small board.
[14:12] <ReggieUK> and no, not as far as I know, if you can do it on an arduino then you can do it on a raspi
[14:12] <ReggieUK> http://code.google.com/p/arduino-tvout/
[14:12] <ReggieUK> 2 gpio, 2 resistors and gnd
[14:13] <ShiftPlusOne> well then... that's awesome.
[14:13] <ReggieUK> very
[14:17] <ShiftPlusOne> Think I might buy 10 of them and see how they sell on ebay locally. Maybe it will cover the shipping costs.
[14:19] <ReggieUK> shipping costs shouldn't be too bad
[14:19] <ReggieUK> I think he quoted something ridiculous like ??2 to new zealand
[14:20] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah I saw that as well, but I am a little skeptical.
[14:20] <ReggieUK> of course that would be without tracking
[14:21] <ShiftPlusOne> given the size of the board, they should be able to send it as a regular letter actually.
[14:21] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:21] * zgedneil (~rus@cpc1-cbly2-0-0-cust455.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:21] <ReggieUK> the alpha boards are 55gm and bigger than the projected size for the release models as I understand things
[14:21] <ShiftPlusOne> should be good enough
[14:22] <ShiftPlusOne> we sell rings, leather wallets, handbags and so on. We can send some wallets as plain letters. There's just a thickness restriction, but it sames a lot of money on shipping.
[14:22] <ReggieUK> tbh ??2 to new zealand is negligible
[14:23] <ReggieUK> I'm not sure what standard letter size is in the UK
[14:23] <ReggieUK> it'll be on the post office website
[14:23] <ReggieUK> I suspect they'll have options too
[14:23] <ReggieUK> for registered mail
[14:23] <ShiftPlusOne> I'd be surprised if it was actually ?2 though. If it is... that's great.
[14:24] <ReggieUK> I would actually want the device in a small amount of packaging
[14:24] <ReggieUK> he quoted that price from the post office website
[14:24] <ReggieUK> it wasn't a guess
[14:24] <ShiftPlusOne> I know, but I am still skeptical, lol. I've ordered stuff from the UK and shipping cost much more than that.
[14:25] <ReggieUK> http://pricefinder.postoffice.co.uk/portal/po/PriceFinder;jsessionid=ELJXDDQQJ0U0MFB2IGKUPLQ;jsessionid=ELJXDDQQJ0U0MFB2IGKUPLQ?catId=91100756&reset=true&campaignid=PR0233&gear=pricingcalc
[14:27] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: the composite connector is a single (usually yellow) RCA connector. People sometimes call them a 'Phono' connector.
[14:27] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: And why are you skeptical about the postage?
[14:27] <ReggieUK> and sometimes mix them up with component connections
[14:28] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, because I am used to being raped with shipping charges.
[14:28] <mdavey> Reggie: The problem with the standard letter size when it comes to R.Pi is the thickness.
[14:28] <ReggieUK> yes, that's something I was going to mention mdavey
[14:28] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: what is the import limit for not paying tax and duty?
[14:30] <ReggieUK> http://www2.postoffice.co.uk/letters-parcels/mailing-guide/weight-size-guide
[14:30] <mdavey> ReggieUK: 25mm max for a large letter. Larger than that and it counts as a parcel.
[14:30] <ShiftPlusOne> I don't know... never hit it. I think we avoid it by sending things as 'gifts'
[14:30] <ReggieUK> could also get it as a packet
[14:33] <mdavey> I *think* in the UK its around ??25. In a lot of european countries it is 25 euro.
[14:34] * Anppa (~attuomin@scoville.pc.hiit.fi) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:34] <mdavey> plus quite a lot of parcel companies charge a minimum ??15 or ??25 'administration' fee on top.
[14:35] <mdavey> ...when collecting the duties on behalf of the Government.
[14:36] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah, I've just done some calculation... it wouldn't make sense to distribute them locally if uk shipping is so cheap
[14:36] <ReggieUK> it depends ShiftPlusOne, they might give you a price break on 10
[14:37] <ReggieUK> these things feel like they're going to be incredibly versatile
[14:37] <zgedneil> I see from the site that power is settled on being an AC adaptor now, is it just a matter of using one you have around or will there be a standard one?
[14:38] <ReggieUK> I know they're aimed at progamming education but it seems like they could be applied to teaching in so many different areas
[14:38] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, you should have a compatible adaptor at home.
[14:38] <mdavey> yea, comes out at ??1.58 first class UK as a packet.
[14:39] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: I was thinking of the connecter mainly
[14:39] <mdavey> zgedneil do you have a link?
[14:39] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, I know, but the voltage range is so high, that you should have something with the right connector and within the voltage range.
[14:39] <ReggieUK> there are some great little adapters I've seen for CCTV power
[14:39] <ReggieUK> standard 2.1 or 2.5mm
[14:40] <zgedneil> mdavey: um, to what?
[14:40] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: I hope so but there are a LOT of different shapes and sizes
[14:40] <mdavey> Liz has said there will be no price breaks on goods. There may be bulk savings on postage because they'll charge at cost for P&P.
[14:40] <ReggieUK> they've got screw terminals, so I just find a compatible voltage/amperage ac adapter, snip the cable and fit one of these adapters
[14:40] <ReggieUK> hopefully they'll use something that size
[14:41] <zgedneil> lol, that's one way to do it
[14:41] <ReggieUK> anyone know off hand what power regulator they will use onboard?
[14:41] <ReggieUK> cos that gives options too
[14:41] <mdavey> zgedneil to where you are looking that says the power is settled on being an AC adaptor.
[14:41] <ReggieUK> if the regulator can handle 7.4V,12v etc. in
[14:42] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, I am sure they'll use a common enough connector. The whole idea is that you'll already have the necessary peripherals. They won't add some obscure connector and make a monopoly on selling the adaptors.
[14:43] <zgedneil> mdavey: FAQ under power requirements - http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=8
[14:43] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, they've got two SMP's on there. No I think one steps down to 5v and another to 3.3.
[14:43] <ShiftPlusOne> *one
[14:43] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: yes, but many of the adaptors you might have DO have some silly thing on the end :-)
[14:43] <ReggieUK> what is an SMP?
[14:43] <zgedneil> anything from Sony for example springs to mind
[14:44] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, switchmode power supply
[14:44] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, I don't know, I've got a box of various adaptors, I am 100% sure one of them will fit.
[14:44] <ReggieUK> zgedneil, which is why I mentioned these cctv power adapters
[14:44] <ReggieUK> if they go for a standard connector these are ideal
[14:44] <mdavey> ReggieUK last I heard they were going to use a cascade of LDOs, probably with fixed 5v input and have an accessory board that could take 6-18v or so. But still undecided.
[14:45] <ReggieUK> ahh, ok, no worries
[14:45] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, oh, so theyr'e switching to LDO?
[14:45] <mdavey> zgedneil: ah, thanks!
[14:45] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne does the Alpha not have an LDO cascade?
[14:45] <ReggieUK> I have a 12v 7ah battery that will give me 3,6,9v @ 1amp
[14:46] <zgedneil> ReggieUK: really I'm just hoping to avoid using a "universal" one with the interchangeable parts, those tend to be kind of unreliable
[14:46] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, I dont know, it's ahrd to keep track of all the info.
[14:46] <mdavey> yea and yea
[14:47] <ReggieUK> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CCTV-Camera-10-Pcs-2-1x5-5mm-Male-Jack-DC-Power-Adapter-/150647368576?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item2313486b80
[14:47] <zgedneil> is the closed-source graphics driver just for 3D, or is there an open 2D one?
[14:48] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, I think everything media related is in the closed firmware.
[14:48] <ReggieUK> but it will be exposed to the user though?
[14:48] <mdavey> My understanding is that there will be open source libraries that talk over a (possibly proprietary API) to a small binary blob on the GPU.
[14:48] <ShiftPlusOne> Yes, the interface is GPLed
[14:48] <zgedneil> ah, that sounds better than I thought
[14:48] <ReggieUK> o real worries there then really
[14:49] <ReggieUK> no*
[14:49] <mdavey> Son in practice, unless you want to fix an obscure rendering bug in the implementation, its not going to be a limitation.
[14:49] <zgedneil> though the size of the closed-source bit is kind of crazy :-)
[14:49] <ReggieUK> it's not 100% open but as this is their bleeding edge? gpu you can understand them protecting it a little bit
[14:49] <zgedneil> 18 megs!
[14:49] <ShiftPlusOne> where did 18 megs come from?
[14:49] <zgedneil> ReggieUK: personally I can't, but I know what you're saying
[14:49] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: comment on the forum IIRC
[14:50] <mdavey> Its really no different to any of the other ARM licensees - TI , Zii, Nvidia, etc.
[14:50] <mdavey> s/Son/So/
[14:50] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, 18 megs... interesting. I thought it was in the 1-2meg range.
[14:51] <mdavey> I thought it was 4meg ;)
[14:51] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: I think they were talking about minimum sizes of SD required etc., pretty sure it was 18
[14:51] <zgedneil> I'll try and find it
[14:52] <ShiftPlusOne> surely the GPU firmware is not larger than the whole linux kernel
[14:52] <mdavey> Ah, that could make sense. The partition probably has more than the binary blob on it.
[14:52] <ShiftPlusOne> how many lines of code would that be!?
[14:52] <zgedneil> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=247
[14:52] <zgedneil> "The GPU blob is an 18MB as an elf file, plus libraries. It does an awful lot."
[14:53] <ShiftPlusOne> jesus
[14:53] <zgedneil> to be fair it does sound like the Pi is basically this mad chip plus a few wires :-D
[14:53] <ShiftPlusOne> true
[14:54] <ShiftPlusOne> I wonder if anyone is going to reverse engineer the firmware and get an open alternative out.
[14:54] <ReggieUK> I wonder exactly why they've gone for 2GB as their image rootfs size?
[14:54] <zgedneil> the only thing I'm concerned about is maintainability, but if the interface is open then hopefully that might be adequate
[14:54] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: at that size I would say zero chance, but who knows
[14:55] <mdavey> Well my libc library is 1.2meg, my bash executable is 600k.
[14:55] <ReggieUK> apart from the gpu blob and the kernel, the rootfs size should be negligible, unless it's jampacked with software?
[14:57] <ReggieUK> the pi sounds like a lot of other SoC's out there
[14:57] <mdavey> "It does an awful lot".
[14:58] <mdavey> 18meg - it bloody needs to!
[14:58] <ReggieUK> the LF1000 does a lot in the didj/explorers
[14:58] <ReggieUK> opengl es lite
[14:58] <ReggieUK> 2 video outputs (internal LCD and TV out)
[14:58] <ReggieUK> i2s
[14:58] <ReggieUK> usb host/client
[14:59] <ReggieUK> sd/mmc (2x)
[14:59] <ReggieUK> nand
[14:59] <ReggieUK> ram
[14:59] <ReggieUK> spi
[14:59] <ReggieUK> i2c
[14:59] <ReggieUK> 4x uarts
[14:59] <ReggieUK> erm , nor
[15:00] <ReggieUK> boot from nand, nor, uart
[15:00] <ReggieUK> without a bootloader
[15:00] <ReggieUK> that's another reason why I'm quite excited about the raspi
[15:01] <ReggieUK> it's a didj without all the guff
[15:01] <ReggieUK> bare
[15:01] <zgedneil> it does sound very much like the old 80s computers in a number of ways, it's surely no coincidence there's a model A and model B
[15:01] <ReggieUK> of course
[15:01] <ReggieUK> BBC micro
[15:01] <zgedneil> (which I admit I found hilarious :-))
[15:01] <ReggieUK> where arm has some roots to say the least I believe
[15:02] <ReggieUK> I found it hugely attractive :D
[15:02] <ReggieUK> as I had a BBC micro at home
[15:02] <ReggieUK> as a kid
[15:03] <zgedneil> hmm, I don't suppose it would it run RISC OS natively?
[15:03] <zgedneil> that would be entertainingly bizarre at least
[15:03] <mdavey> should do, with a little work. ROOL are one of the teams expressing an interest in doing a port.
[15:04] <zgedneil> I had a feeling the "little work" might be involved somehow :-)
[15:04] <mdavey> Some of their guys are in Cambridge and Cambridge community feels very small - everyone knows everyone else. Jack Lang used to work for Acorn.
[15:05] <mdavey> And was (maybe still is) a consultant for Amadeus Capital.
[15:08] <mdavey> Hermann is co-founder of Amadeus and was a co-founder of Acorn.
[15:08] <mdavey> (Jack is one of the Trustees of R.Pi)
[15:10] <mdavey> And RiscOS should be less work to port than many other distributions. It already runs on Armv6.
[15:13] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:23] <zgedneil> Re: talking about power supplies earlier, it looks like appropriate ones will be available if you haven't got something that works already - http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=126
[15:26] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, ah sorry, I didn't realise that's what you were asking. yeah they'll be providing them as well
[15:26] * yang (yang@freenode/sponsor/cacert.assurer.yang) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:27] <yang> hi
[15:27] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: it wasn't really, just something else I thought I'd bring up :-)
[15:29] <zgedneil> will it be possible to completely control the boot process via serial link? I think I got that impressive from somewhere but can't remember where.
[15:29] <zgedneil> I suppose I mean "see" more than control, but serial-console-ish is what I'm thinking
[15:30] <zgedneil> lol, s/impressive/impression/
[15:31] <ReggieUK> the boot process is apparently handled by code on the gpu, it boots 'something' from the fat32 partition on the sd card
[15:31] <mdavey> yea, Eben was talking about the ftdi serial debug cables they are using, on the Forum only yesterday
[15:31] <ReggieUK> I find it slightly annoying that it requires SD to boot
[15:31] <mdavey> but I don't know at what point you start to see stuff - presumably from the point the GPU bootstraps the ARM Linux kernel.
[15:32] <ReggieUK> but they did say that you can boot whatever app. you like (bootloader, kernel, something else) from the SD card
[15:32] <mdavey> ReggieUK: You could always put the R.Pi in a box that doesn't give you access to the SD card, and put grup on it so it loads the OS from USB ;)
[15:32] <ReggieUK> you'd see serial data at the earliest point their drivers provide access to the serial
[15:32] <mdavey> *grub
[15:33] <ReggieUK> mdavey, of course
[15:33] <ReggieUK> but it stil requires an SD card
[15:33] <ReggieUK> however, if you could uart boot it, then you wouldn't need *any8 storage connected directly to the unit itself
[15:34] <mdavey> yea but the alternative would be to put NOR or NAND on the device then have the hastle of what if it becomes corrupted. At least this way, insert a card with a known good imae and you are up and running again.
[15:34] <ReggieUK> sure
[15:34] <ReggieUK> but you don't need nor/nand to boot either
[15:34] <ReggieUK> once the bootloader is on there, you could do, say, an NFS boot
[15:34] <mdavey> Would be good to know if the SoC is able to boot directly from network or USB if the SD card wasn't present.
[15:35] <mdavey> The question has been asked, but the answer was vague.
[15:35] <zgedneil> I was just curious because I expect I'd mostly be using it via serial until I finally convince the ethernet to work :-)
[15:35] <ReggieUK> with the right bootloader you could expose a ramdisk as a mass storage device
[15:36] <ReggieUK> then boot totally from that
[15:36] <mdavey> Yea, ability to uart boot would also be useful. But I suspect that feature isn't there as the device has JTAG so within broadcom they would just jtag the image on there.
[15:36] <ReggieUK> gives lots of options for testing
[15:37] <mdavey> Should still be able to do that: create an sdcard image that loads the OS into a ramdisk and runs from there, then you can remove the sdcard.
[15:37] <ShiftPlusOne> wget http://download.berlios.de/bitbake/bitbake-1.10.2.tar.gz
[15:37] <ShiftPlusOne> ahmm... ignore that
[15:38] <ShiftPlusOne> You're not Terminal.... silly XChat.
[15:38] <zgedneil> I don't see any huge problem with running from SD, the main annoyance is no swap
[15:39] <ReggieUK> you can still do swap but it's not avisable
[15:39] <zgedneil> hence no swap for sane people, yes
[15:39] <zgedneil> the SD lifetime would be measurable in months if you do swap I expect :-)
[15:39] <ReggieUK> indeed
[15:40] <ReggieUK> as for ramdisk image from SD, kind of defeating the object, the object would be to mount the ramdisk on a host pc, dump your kernel and maybe rootfs onto the ramdisk and run it, no swapping out SD cards
[15:41] <ReggieUK> I have a unit that does this already
[15:54] <atts> is there any info on how the GPU boots, or what hooks would be required to create a bootable application?
[16:04] <zgedneil> hmm, does it actually have a serial port as standard? The forum has talk on soldering one on, unless I'm misreading :-/
[16:05] <ahven> no serial connector on board
[16:20] <ShiftPlusOne> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=294.0
[16:20] <ShiftPlusOne> .... some people
[16:27] <ukscone> morning all
[16:27] <ukscone> notice the lack of a good prefix
[16:27] <ukscone> the wife stayed home from work and ruined my plans for the day
[16:28] <zgedneil> looks like http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoardBeginners is going in the bin then, that's all about the serial :-)
[16:28] <ukscone> :)
[16:29] <qzx> ShiftPlusOne/ lol, and also good avatar
[16:30] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: i built git qemu lastnight -- has explicit 1176 support
[16:31] <ukscone> so using that with aboriginal rootfs
[16:32] <ShiftPlusOne> qzx, yes game of life is awesome >.>
[16:32] <ShiftPlusOne> <.<
[16:33] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, any luck with OE?
[16:33] <qzx> c(^_^*)b
[16:33] <ShiftPlusOne> and 'morning
[16:37] <ShiftPlusOne> And what sort of plans can get ruined by the missus being around? O_o
[16:39] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: not bothered. i am not really that much of a fan of oe for most people. it's good and everything but upstream breaks things quite often
[16:39] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: staying in bed, ignoring the housework, playing on the computer and working. i can't concentrate when she is around as she is always talking or asking questions and asking me to fetch her things
[16:40] <ukscone> i get to a really complicated piece of code and she asks me to charge her ipod
[16:40] <ShiftPlusOne> heh, got it
[16:40] <ukscone> or for the cheese
[16:41] <mdavey> cheese?
[16:41] <ShiftPlusOne> did that happen just then?
[16:42] <ukscone> well cheese is an example but some form of snackage
[16:42] <ukscone> and well cheese is good
[16:42] <ukscone> isn't it gromet
[16:42] * mdavey is confuzled
[16:43] <ukscone> mdavey: wallace and gromet
[16:43] <ukscone> omg nancy gracee is going to be on dwts
[16:44] <ShiftPlusOne> I think I'll try it your way and compile the latest qemu as well. Any patches needed?
[16:44] <mdavey> yes, I get the cheese reference to gromet. What I don't get is the snackage.cheese reference to anything that's come before :D
[16:45] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, the missus asks him to get things for her... like cheese.
[16:45] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: nope i just used the git ver and it was in the list of cpu
[16:45] <mdavey> okaaay
[16:45] <mdavey> lol at the randomness.
[16:45] <ukscone> mdavey: wife is annoying pita tha's all
[16:45] <mdavey> ah, pita with chsses
[16:45] <mdavey> *cheese
[16:46] * mdavey wonders how Liz is getting on with the R.Pi fashion clothing line
[16:47] <ukscone> i'm wondering who she will get to model the r-pi bikini
[16:48] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne has already volunteered to model the speedos
[16:48] <ShiftPlusOne> (it's true)
[16:49] <ukscone> although he did only volunteer after 3 bottles if the r-pi branded raspberry wine
[16:49] <ukscone> s/if/of
[16:50] <mdavey> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=293.0
[16:50] <mdavey> I've been to trade shows like that.
[16:51] <ukscone> :) the not remembering how you got underwear part?
[16:51] * amandarn (~mandarine@unaffiliated/amandarn) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[16:52] <mdavey> Gives a whole original meaning to the phrase "getting into bed with <insert-competitor-here>"
[16:52] <ukscone> lol
[16:53] <ukscone> mdavey: i was at pcw expo in earl's court in 85 and the only thing i remember is going into the exhibitors bar at around 1pm. can't remember anything until noon the next day
[16:53] <mdavey> lol
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[16:54] <mdavey> I think in '85 I was blagging my way into Acorn Expo Olympia without paying. Too young to be served at the bar, thou.
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[16:54] <ukscone> we were placed next to the amstrad user group booth we had lots of fights about bank switching :)
[16:55] <ukscone> shows how nerdy we were
[16:55] <Thorn_> 30 users, not bad :)
[16:56] <mdavey> think that's more than yesterday.
[16:56] <ukscone> Thorn_: minus two for the bot and chanserv
[16:56] <ukscone> yup highest before that was 26 humans
[16:56] <Thorn_> i don't discriminate against bots
[16:57] <Thorn_> they have feelings too
[16:57] <zgedneil> is there likely to be a "standard" USB wi-fi dongle? I wonder if I might go that way rather than ethernet
[16:57] <ukscone> here an i brain the size of a planet
[16:57] <zgedneil> it's just I know wi-fi can be a bit hit-and-miss support-wise on Linux
[16:57] <mdavey> I think it is likley that R.Pi will offer one that's known to work.
[16:57] <zgedneil> yeah, hopefully
[16:58] <ukscone> jamesh tested with a cheapo one that is pretty bog standard so i think most will work
[16:58] <zgedneil> I just remembered I don't actually have ethernet on the PC I'd probably connect it to
[16:58] <zgedneil> (bizarrely)
[16:59] <zgedneil> plus I suppose wi-fi ties it down a bit less :-)
[16:59] <zgedneil> I've used a zd1211 one for quite a while, it's just you never know from minute to minute which chipset ends up in anything
[17:00] <ukscone> zgedneil: ugh i have had no ends of trouble with zd1211 on a mipsbook netbook
[17:01] <zgedneil> ukscone: you do have to make sure you get the right firmware in place, it can be iffy otherwise
[17:01] <zgedneil> though I wouldn't imagine that's to blame really
[17:01] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, any note-worthy configure options to pass to qemu's ./configure?
[17:02] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: not really i just turned everything on after making sure i had all the dependencies installed sdl, zlib......
[17:02] <ShiftPlusOne> ok, I think I'll just go with the defaults
[17:03] <ukscone> zgedneil: it wasn't the firmware it was just the gpio to turn it on and off and init it and the kernel modules -- right pita
[17:03] <zgedneil> oh I see, yeah
[17:03] <Thorn_> did anyone get a rootfs for qemu-arm going? :p
[17:04] <ukscone> when using the run-emulator script from aboriginal i just changed the cpu name to test none of the other options other than trying to see if sdl would work right inside virtualbox -- didn't change it to output to graphics screen
[17:04] <ukscone> Thorn_: yes that's what we are talking about (sortof)
[17:04] * ctyler_summer is now known as ctyle
[17:04] * ctyle is now known as ctyler
[17:05] <mdavey> I think "more RAM" has become the new MFAQ.
[17:05] <ukscone> of course no way to really test we are right but aboriginal and qemu seem to be an ok setup for now
[17:05] <Thorn_> :D
[17:05] <zgedneil> mdavey: 128MB should be enough for anyone
[17:05] <ukscone> mdavey: just to punish everyone they should lower the amount of ram on the device
[17:05] <Thorn_> nah
[17:05] <Thorn_> 256mb is plenty
[17:05] <ukscone> i'm thinking 32meg and 64meg
[17:05] <Thorn_> enough memory to push some juicy highres textures through that gpu
[17:05] <zgedneil> 64MB fits the "quote" better at least :-)
[17:06] <ReggieUK> I wouldn't do 32nb on one of those
[17:06] <mdavey> you would think. The number of people that want to use this to run their application server or be their NAS or be their firewall. ::rolleyes::
[17:06] <zgedneil> it would be fun attempting to run firefox on it, especially with no swap
[17:06] <ReggieUK> unless you plan on doing bugger all of any worthy note with 3d
[17:06] <ukscone> ok the next time someone asks for more ram they remove 1meg from the r-pi
[17:06] <mdavey> lol
[17:06] <ukscone> soon we'll have a 4k r-pi
[17:06] <traeak> how much RAM depends on what somenoe wants to do with it
[17:07] <traeak> replacing a core i7 desktop with rpi ain't gonna happen
[17:07] <ukscone> and then they can sell rampacks that wobble
[17:07] <zgedneil> ukscone: just as long as it gets a hex-entry pad
[17:07] <ReggieUK> I don't think anyone expects it to replace a core i7
[17:07] <ukscone> zgedneil: oooo talk about flashy we had to use front panal toggle switches
[17:07] <ReggieUK> but when it's capable of 1080p @ 30fps, someone will try and do something on it
[17:07] <zgedneil> ukscone: and it was uphill both ways
[17:08] <mdavey> ReggieUK: No, really, some people do!
[17:08] <traeak> driving 1080p is going to be interesting
[17:08] <Thorn_> well, it has openGLES support, i bet it can run doom3 at 15fps
[17:08] <traeak> the ps3 and xb360 can't properly drive 1080p
[17:08] <zgedneil> I believe Wipeout HD does from time to time
[17:08] <ReggieUK> sorry to rattle on about the lepfrog products but I only know those and a parrot photoframe internally
[17:09] <mdavey> Yea, BCM2835 is an interesting SoC as it is much more 'unbalanced' than most of the ARM SoC out there.
[17:09] <mdavey> It basically has a next-generation GPU bolted to a legacy CPU.
[17:09] <ReggieUK> didj/explorer reserve 18MB for 2d/3d (also has 3 hardware layers on the chip)
[17:09] <ReggieUK> depends what that nexgen gives us really
[17:10] <Thorn_> an arm build of crysis
[17:10] <mdavey> (prefix both GPU and CPU with embedded in that sentance)
[17:10] <ReggieUK> I'm guessing it won't be giving us cuda style calculations directly on the gpu?
[17:10] <Thorn_> there's no opencl interface i guess
[17:11] <mdavey> Not sure about CL. VG is there.
[17:11] <zgedneil> how about a USB-based rampack to use as swap? (I think I'm kidding)
[17:11] <ReggieUK> ewwwww
[17:11] <ReggieUK> although......
[17:11] <zgedneil> ReggieUK: that was precisely my thought process, lol
[17:11] * spvensko (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
[17:12] <ReggieUK> I wonder what those 16 GPIO will do
[17:12] <zgedneil> kind of like a faster HD without having to be a HD, you have to wonder
[17:12] <mdavey> whatever you want them to ;)
[17:12] <ReggieUK> on the didj SoC they've got multiple uses
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[17:12] <mdavey> which SoC do they use?
[17:12] <ReggieUK> LF1000
[17:13] <ReggieUK> which is a magic eyes (pollux)
[17:13] <ReggieUK> arm9 w/ a bunch of other stuff built in
[17:13] <zgedneil> so what's the problem with the ARMv6 then, is it "too old" or "too new" as it were?
[17:13] <ReggieUK> old I guess
[17:13] <ReggieUK> the magic eyes chips are supposed to go up to 800Mhz
[17:14] <ReggieUK> but I can't work out how we manage that
[17:14] <mdavey> yea beagleboard does a pin mux so many of the balls have multiple uses - which is essentially the same thing.
[17:14] <ReggieUK> the didj/explorer are supposed to do 533Mhz
[17:14] <ReggieUK> but it just borks when I compile for that speed
[17:14] <ReggieUK> they hint at it being doable in their source code
[17:14] <mdavey> zedneil: There's no problem with it as such - just hat there are more sophisticated and more performant ARM cores now.
[17:15] <ReggieUK> I'm just wondering if any of the gpio would give us access to nor/nand
[17:15] <zgedneil> mdavey: it sounded a bit like there was a problem with debian?
[17:15] <zgedneil> like they were dropping support or something?
[17:15] <mdavey> zedneil: and some distros have dropped support for it.
[17:15] <ReggieUK> but we're still bound by the restricted boot from the gpu
[17:15] <mdavey> or not added support.
[17:15] <ReggieUK> explorer is restricted compared to the didj, we had to do a hardware mod to enable uart boot on it
[17:16] <mdavey> debian might be one that's dropped support. Android is an example of one that added support for ARMv7 but not ARMv6
[17:16] * spvensko (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) Quit (Client Quit)
[17:18] <mdavey> ReggieUK: yes it is possible that you could use the GPIOs for NOR or NAND, depending on which specific GPIOs they've chosen to expose. NAND might be a problem as I think you need more than 16 lines. But serial NOR might well be possible.
[17:19] <ReggieUK> I'm posing a question on the forum now :)
[17:19] <ShiftPlusOne> Well compiling qemu made my desktop unusable. Filled up all the RAM and swap. =/
[17:20] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: try compiling with just -O rather than the usual -O3847928734
[17:21] <ShiftPlusOne> Nuh, it should finish up soon anyway
[17:21] <zgedneil> if it's filled up all the RAM and swap then yes, it should be "finishing" quite soon
[17:22] <ShiftPlusOne> and it's done
[17:22] <ShiftPlusOne> (properly)
[17:22] <ReggieUK> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=296
[17:22] <ukscone> the problem with using the aboriginal rootfs is that getting files out of it is a pain in the nether regions
[17:22] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, just mount the filesystem on your host?
[17:22] <ReggieUK> why?
[17:23] <ReggieUK> yeah :D
[17:24] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: yes but it's not as easy as with scratchbox wher ei just symbolic link a directory to /var/www
[17:24] <ShiftPlusOne> by the way, what's the difference between scratchbox and scratchbox2?
[17:24] <Thorn_> 2
[17:26] <ShiftPlusOne> actually it's 1
[17:26] <ShiftPlusOne> you lose
[17:26] <Thorn_> 1
[17:27] <ShiftPlusOne> you win!
[17:28] <ukscone> scratchbox1 is a complete chroot environment and aimed at building stuff scratchbox2 is really for building sdk's and more modern and easier to setup and use
[17:28] <mdavey> ReggieUK: Geekbeat.tv/roku2review
[17:28] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, ok, thanks
[17:29] <mdavey> ^^ link to the PoP device that Roku2 is using, plus alternatives. R.Pi is probably using the same.
[17:29] <ukscone> that is a very simplied explanation but it's good enough
[17:31] <mdavey> ReggieUK: sorry wrong link, here's the correct one: http://www.mycablealternatives.com/2011/07/roku-2-xs-teardown/
[17:34] <ShiftPlusOne> liz doesn't seem to be in a great mood right now =(
[17:35] <ReggieUK> there seem to be a lot of unreasonable questions/expectations
[17:35] <ReggieUK> on the forums
[17:36] <ReggieUK> how much are they expecting to sell the roku2 for mdavey?
[17:36] <mdavey> Wow, there are a *lot* of people lurking on the forum. Your post already has 17 reads :D
[17:36] <mdavey> that particular model: $99.
[17:36] <ReggieUK> more inclined towards the raspi at those prices
[17:37] <ReggieUK> not supremely botherd about bluetooth/wifi (at least not on some projects)
[17:38] <Thorn_> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=294 lol'd
[17:40] <mdavey> it does show you just how much more costly things get when you add bluetooth, wifi, NAND, Ethernet and USB hub. Probably doubles the price.
[17:41] <ukscone> mdavey: yes. i actually like what they have actually limited themselves to. i'd actually prefer a slightly different config with alot less stuff but then noone else would want it
[17:42] <ukscone> i.e. composite video, speaker jack and usb hub -- that'd do me for a model a
[17:43] <mdavey> Agreed, they have done a supreme job. Like I said in one of the other posts, you won't please all the people all the time. I too would have preferred a slightly different config but what they've ended up with is going to be awesome.
[17:44] <mdavey> And people have the choice: a basic model for the price of a typical paperback school book, or a more capable model for the price of the same book in hardback.
[17:46] <ReggieUK> is the model B using dedicated ethernet or does it steal a space on the USB hub?
[17:46] <Thorn_> it's handled by the lan9512 which is also the usb hub
[17:46] <ukscone> i know i am in a minority but i'd have gone the whole bbc micro (and other british home micros from the 80s) bit. expose video, sound and an expansion bus (and serial or equiv) and leave it at that
[17:47] <traeak> rpi is potentially bandwidth limited
[17:47] <ReggieUK> no reason you couldn't run beebem on it
[17:47] <mdavey> it is a specialist IC. It steals the usb provided by the SoC and which is taken directly to a USB socket on the model B and then provides Ethernet and two USBs, which physically are located at the same place as the single USB on the model A.
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[17:48] <Thorn_> isn't the max practical throughput of usb 2 around 50mbit?
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[17:49] <Thorn_> therefore, won't the 100mbit lan actually be limited to around that same number (assuming there aren't any other high bandwidth usb devices plugged in)
[17:49] <ReggieUK> 480Mbit usb2
[17:49] <Thorn_> that's theoretical
[17:49] <mdavey> ukscone: The route I would have gone would have been to keep the prototype form factor for the model-A but put either an Arduino or Gumstix style expansion socket on the PCB. Then have the model B be the same thing but plugged into a second PCB which provides the Ethernet and second USB.
[17:49] <Thorn_> you'll never close to that
[17:50] <mdavey> ukscone: My other wish is for PoE.
[17:50] <ctyler> Thorn_: but you'll get a lot more than 50 mbps
[17:50] <traeak> for usb2.0 on intel hardware i see consistently 32mb/s sustained (or about 256Mbit/s)
[17:50] <traeak> for hard drive transfers
[17:50] <ukscone> mdavey: yes the daughter board thing would have been quite a good idea
[17:50] <ReggieUK> and I get 25MB/s read from a usb stick
[17:51] <ShiftPlusOne> Dear God, that last slashdotting brought in a lot of.... people I don't have nice things to say about =/... the questions on the forum are getting sillier and sillier.
[17:51] <traeak> hehe
[17:51] <traeak> hehe /. effect
[17:51] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: yes we need a ban hammer on the forums :)
[17:52] <ukscone> or at least a lower mental age limit for posting
[17:52] <ukscone> maybe not because then i wouldn't be able to post
[17:52] <ShiftPlusOne> heh
[17:52] <ukscone> just ask everyone to act their age not their shoe size :)
[17:53] <ReggieUK> euro, uk or us shoesize?
[17:53] <ShiftPlusOne> depends on the shoe sizing standard you're talking about
[17:53] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah... what he (or she?) said.
[17:54] <ukscone> :)
[17:55] <ukscone> ok then. no posting unless it is legal in your country for you to drink alcohol
[17:55] <ShiftPlusOne> So women in certain countries can't post!?
[17:55] <mdavey> ReggieUK: when you say about using hot air to remove the chips, are you talking about harnessing the power of slashdot?
[17:55] <ShiftPlusOne> shame on you
[17:55] <Thorn_> that doesnt work
[17:56] <Thorn_> afaik in some states in the US you can drink at 14
[17:56] <Thorn_> in the UK it's 21
[17:56] <mdavey> (as an aside, it is not practical to remove PoP chips in anything but the most state of the art rework factories)
[17:56] <ukscone> Thorn_: federal age limit for alcohol and well do we really want women clogging up the forum with isn't it pretty and shiney posts? :) /me ducks
[17:57] <ukscone> Thorn_: when did they raise that? it was 18 when i was 18 :)
[17:57] <Thorn_> few years ago
[17:57] <Thorn_> it's 21 for tobacco and alcohol here now
[17:57] <ctyler> Maybe we just need a Captcha where the answer is buried in the FAQ. If you don't read the FAQ you can't post.
[17:57] <Thorn_> and it seems a law to put a HUGE POSTER in every shop window, near every shop till, explaining that ;p
[17:58] <mdavey> I did not know that. I know most pubs haven't served anyone under 21 for a few years, but thought that was still voluntary.
[17:58] <ukscone> what about using the jet set willy method -- the colour square (retangle)
[17:58] <ShiftPlusOne> Or a poll on whether the device should have a built in 5 port USB 3.0 hub and if you answer yes, you get blocked.
[17:58] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: why shouldn't it?
[17:58] <ukscone> or you need to look up a word in the elite manual -- that would mean only people over about 35 who are ocd can post
[17:58] <Thorn_> you didn't mention any drawbacks of having a usb 3.0 hub, therefore it's the person who put up the polls own fault
[17:59] <mdavey> ukscone: yes!
[17:59] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, 'cause it would derail the project as it is.
[17:59] <ukscone> mdavey: still got your elite manual?
[17:59] <ukscone> i'd need to ring my step father and ask him to go through my pile of s*** to find it
[17:59] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: indeed, a 6 port would be much more effective
[17:59] <traeak> i wonder if the Rpi's cpu is even fast enough to handle more than usb2 speeds
[17:59] <ShiftPlusOne> was elite big back int he day?
[17:59] <mdavey> actually know. But I have aenough clue to try and find one on the interweb.
[17:59] <mdavey> s/know/no/
[18:00] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: yes. it, chuckie egg and manic miner/jet set willy were probably the biggest games back in the day
[18:00] <mdavey> I 'haven't been drinking, honest. s/aenough/enough /
[18:00] <ukscone> the only reason i used a beed at college was to play elite or chuckie egg
[18:00] <ukscone> s/beed/beeb
[18:01] <ShiftPlusOne> haven't heard of any of those... I started with Prince of Persia.
[18:01] <ukscone> almost everyone had pirate copies of them
[18:01] <ukscone> mdavey: you ever have/use a speccy?
[18:02] <ukscone> ok history question. can anyone name the piece of software anyone aged from 12 to 30+ in the 80s who owned or had access to a sinclair spectrum had a copy of
[18:02] <zgedneil> ukscone: you'll have to narrow it down
[18:03] <mdavey> yes. ZX80, 81, then the spectrum 48k (rubber keys, rainbow in the corrner), then the +2.
[18:03] <traeak> the free60 link IMHO is a better overview and contains lists of stuff you need
[18:04] <traeak> oops
[18:04] <ukscone> ok if you didn't posses a tape to tape cassette recorder
[18:04] <Thorn_> taper
[18:04] <ukscone> mdavey: so you know the answer then
[18:04] <zgedneil> ukscone: I can't think of one game that everyone had, really
[18:04] * mdavey is thinking
[18:04] <ukscone> zgedneil: wasn't a game
[18:04] <zgedneil> ah
[18:04] <zgedneil> sinclair basic
[18:04] <mdavey> yup
[18:05] <ukscone> zgedneil: well that too but this was a utility
[18:05] <mdavey> BBC basic was better thou. As was sharp basic.
[18:05] <zgedneil> pffft, cheating now
[18:05] <ukscone> and i don't think i ever met anyone that didn't have a legit or pirate copy
[18:05] <mdavey> In fact, the sharp was the best computer ever.
[18:05] <zgedneil> devpac?
[18:05] <ukscone> mdavey: no lynx basic -- had floating point line numbers :)
[18:05] <ukscone> zgedneil: nope
[18:06] <ukscone> mdavey: them's fighting words
[18:06] <zgedneil> oh, maybe that tape copier thing? lerm was it?
[18:06] <ukscone> zgedneil: correct
[18:06] <zgedneil> I never saw that
[18:06] <zgedneil> to be fair I was actually relatively legit in those days, boring I know :-)
[18:06] <ukscone> at my college the A/V library tech would make copies of it on the library tape to tape machine for you if you asked niceely
[18:07] <traeak> putting an apple2e type operating system and programming environment on the rpi would be nice starting point
[18:07] <ukscone> but the only speccy was in the library
[18:07] <zgedneil> ukscone: lol
[18:07] <traeak> you could resurrect the old 1980s computer cirricula
[18:07] <ukscone> the rest of the computers were a few beeb's in the prebusiness and pre-nursesing dept. the res tof us used tandy model 3's with a corvus 10meg winchester drive
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[18:08] <ReggieUK> mdavey, no I'm talking about harnessing the power of my aoyue hot air station downstairs
[18:08] <mdavey> I can see a whole new industry being spawned by R.Pi. And it isn't the one the team had in mind.
[18:08] <zgedneil> the one game I played a lot and (whispers) never actually bought until years later was Match Day 2
[18:08] <ukscone> traeak: one of my aims for the r-pi is to boot directly into a basic interpreter without a linux overhead -- not sure if it's doable but i'll try
[18:09] <zgedneil> ukscone: you could have a binary run straight from the kernel I suppose, that not good enough?
[18:09] <traeak> ukscone: i think that would be very worthwhile. unix isn't the end all be all of the command line (although I love unix i realize it has a bit of kruft)
[18:09] <mdavey> Already the Sinclair QL, Electron and Archimedes fans are talking about getting emulators running and putting R.Pi inside the old cases. Now you and the Apple2e :~
[18:09] <ukscone> traeak: looking at something like blassic or bywater or writing my own basic interpreter but depends if i can get the binary blob needed for the gpu to be usable in a baremetal app
[18:10] <ShiftPlusOne> ...=/ you guys are old.
[18:10] <zgedneil> mdavey: I was a little surprised there wasn't any talk of putting it inside a keyboard somehow, presumably I just missed it :-)
[18:10] <traeak> ukscone: what's your goal? getting a cirricula for the rpi as quickly as possible ?
[18:10] <ukscone> mdavey: a couple of my r-pi's will be going in cases. the big thing i need is to turn matrix keyboard into usb but shoudl be doable as it's been done for other computers (amiga, commodore, apple....
[18:10] <mdavey> yea there's been a couple of posts about putting it inside keyboards or mice.
[18:11] <zgedneil> I never would have thought of mice
[18:11] <ukscone> traeak: my aim is the feel of using an circa 80s british home micro with "instant on" and basic language as the os
[18:12] <atts> would the r.pi be suitable for learning OS development, or is the GPU expecting to find a specific unix kernel or bootloader on startup
[18:12] <mdavey> ReggieUK: those balls are very fine pitch and you'll need to replace the CPU as you replace the PoP memory.
[18:12] <zgedneil> ukscone: no problem, just model it after the Sharp MZ700 - five minutes to load basic from tape
[18:12] <ukscone> zgedneil: and use the spectrum loading bars? :)
[18:12] <zgedneil> well obviously
[18:13] <mdavey> ReggieUK: getting the replacements lined up just so and getting good contacts between CPU and mainboard and CPU and memory witout disturbing anything else will be a challenge.
[18:13] <ShiftPlusOne> atts, I think it's too early to say, but OS development isn't the sort of thing it's designed for. The GPU will load anything that it can, it doesn't have to be a kernel. Anyway, you're much better off with qemu.
[18:13] <zgedneil> atts: from what I gather it's basically a matter of running a binary from a FAT32 partition on the SD card
[18:14] <ukscone> zgedneil: even if it isn't possible to do it how i want using u-boot should be almost as good as u-boot will load and execute any kernel or elf binary
[18:14] <atts> ok cool
[18:14] <zgedneil> I'm really thinking of the driver hassle, it might be easier to just use Linux and have your basic as a program that runs as init, in effect
[18:16] <zgedneil> I imagine the kernel itself would boot within ten seconds or so
[18:16] <ukscone> yup. the onyl thing that will be a problem is the firmware blob for the gpu but until we get a real device and the blob not sure how much hassle it'll be or how to even do it
[18:16] <ukscone> might be able to mmap the blob and use it like a shared lib but might not be able to
[18:16] <traeak> ukscone: is source available for (*any* of those environments (apple 2e, c64, etc?)
[18:17] <ReggieUK> mdavey, tin foil ala xbox 360 / ps3 fixes
[18:17] <zgedneil> it sounds like the open bit is just a wrapper for the calls in the blob really
[18:17] <traeak> personally i'd love to play with something like plan9 on one of these
[18:17] <ReggieUK> not sure I'm necessarily capable of doing it just yet myself
[18:17] <ReggieUK> but I know about 8 people that are :)
[18:17] <traeak> although i guess that can be done on a virtual machine as well
[18:18] <traeak> plan9 is not exactly every day user friendly
[18:18] <ukscone> (Although, in closing, I would like to note that I can put any tool to malicious use. Right now I'm thinking about a dinner fork, and the soft parts of everyone who took part in this thread.) -- love liz's comment :)
[18:19] <zgedneil> that was a strange thread
[18:19] <traeak> heh
[18:19] <traeak> and exokernels seem interesting, then again, a virtual machine can do those as well
[18:19] <zgedneil> exokernel? is that military hardware?
[18:19] <zgedneil> (and if not why not)
[18:20] <ReggieUK> on a personal level, with the bootloader, it just seems a little restrictive to be forced to use an SD card with the chip
[18:20] <mdavey> ukscone: yes mee too!
[18:21] <zgedneil> I hope it will have a variant of the Amiga's insert-disk screen if the SD is absent
[18:21] <ReggieUK> but I'm not going to be too worried over it, I'll live
[18:21] <ukscone> zgedneil: well there is no non-volitile storage on the r-pi so where would it load that errormessgae from
[18:21] <traeak> exokernel is an interesting kernel architecture where the kernel itself just acts as a resource broker instead of provided an abstract hardware layer
[18:22] <traeak> providing i mean
[18:22] <mdavey> Actually, I'd like to know which RISC architecture the GPU uses. All they've said is that is it a prorpietary RISC core and is capable of general-purpose compute.
[18:22] <zgedneil> ukscone: well you use a custom chip for it obviously, this is important stuff
[18:22] <mdavey> Its VideoCore IV - anyone know anything about that architecture?
[18:22] <ShiftPlusOne> Looks like I was right about the power supply.... In your face... whoever said something else.
[18:23] <ReggieUK> part of the gpu boot code maybe mdavey?
[18:23] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: tell us!
[18:23] <ShiftPlusOne> oh, I just meant that they won't be using switchmode supplies, not linear regulators.
[18:23] <traeak> likely its wise for broadcom to do the binary blob firmware. it allows them more freedom to jack with the hardware itself with every revision and not have to generate more user documentation and deal with multiple drivers, etc
[18:24] <traeak> support costs really suck
[18:24] <mdavey> traeak: yes
[18:24] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: do you have a typo in that last sentance?
[18:25] <ShiftPlusOne> as always
[18:25] <ShiftPlusOne> *will
[18:25] <mdavey> okay. What does the Alpha board use?
[18:25] <ShiftPlusOne> linear
[18:25] <ShiftPlusOne> "ShiftPlusOne is right - what you see on the alpha board isn't necessarily a good indicator of what you'll see in the final version!" -Liz
[18:25] <zgedneil> I was hoping it would be USB or Ethernet power for maximum trolling value
[18:26] <ShiftPlusOne> straight from the horse's mouth... though it's not nice to call Liz a horse.
[18:26] <mdavey> the LDO info was from Eben a few days after the Alpha boards turned up.
[18:26] <mdavey> but he did say it was all up in the air
[18:27] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, did he say they'll be using them in the final version though? it can't be good for power consumption
[18:27] <traeak> mdavey: the question is how much support does broadcom provide and can they give us more binary blobs that could be loaded to repurpose all/part of the gpu
[18:28] <ReggieUK> the answer to that will probably be, not if it isn't useful to the purpose of the raspi
[18:28] <zgedneil> traeak: if they're not telling you how to use it that suggests they want it to be a magic black box
[18:28] <mdavey> the power regulation stuff was turning out to be one of the most costly bits. I couldn't spot the BCM59002 on the Alpha board, either.
[18:29] <zgedneil> traeak: so, "none whatsoever" is my guess
[18:29] <traeak> zgedneil: yup, support.
[18:29] <traeak> i wonder what broadcom expects from the rpi ?
[18:29] <traeak> and more importantly, what they want to do if this is a success
[18:30] <traeak> i'm sure they would stand to grab a bunch of embedded contracts if more people are familiar with their architecture in general
[18:30] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, then they'd have to change the operating voltage... stepping 20v down to 5v like that?
[18:30] <atts> do you think they'll provide documentation on how to interface with the blob? or will they just support a set of known kernels/bootloaders?
[18:30] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: yes, that's what he was implying. At the time they were looking at putting a switchmode on a expansion board for those that needed flexible voltage input.
[18:31] <ShiftPlusOne> atts, the kernel module is gpled.
[18:31] <traeak> if there aren't good power regulators on the rpi how easy would it be to blow it up ?
[18:31] <atts> ok
[18:31] <traeak> or oculd they just put some minimal protection circuitry in there to just not operate if the input power is bad ?
[18:31] <mdavey> overvold crowbar at 6v
[18:31] <ShiftPlusOne> mdavey, I must've missed that whole discussion somehow O_o. Was this recent?
[18:31] <mdavey> *overvolt
[18:32] <mdavey> might have not been a discussion on the forums ;)
[18:32] <ShiftPlusOne> oh, I see how it is
[18:33] <traeak> i kind of like microusb for power input because it does force the power issue
[18:34] <mdavey> Yea that was where the discussions were going at one point. But you have to realise that they are also doing a lot of research into what kit is available around the world and in developing countries.
[18:34] <zgedneil> I'm a little surprised it doesn't have an RF out, is composite really that universal globally?
[18:34] <traeak> microusb is just a recent cell phone standard
[18:34] <mdavey> Several people speculated that 5v mini-USB PSUs were probably almost as easy to find as PSUs with 2.5mm or 2.1mm DC jacks.
[18:35] <traeak> seriously though developing nations seemt o be bypassing hard telephone wires and just going direct to cell phones
[18:35] <mdavey> RF modulators are stuplidy expensive.
[18:35] <zgedneil> mdavey: because nobody uses them any more, or...?
[18:35] <traeak> also with micro USB you can use a computer USB port to power it
[18:36] <mdavey> no, because they have a lot of components inside them and just heppen to be stuplidy expensive.
[18:36] <traeak> i can walk down to the dollar store and buy a microusb cable for 1 dollar
[18:36] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, and how much would it cost with the wall wort for it?
[18:36] <mdavey> You are talking 2-4 $ for a modulator. When it comes to this project, that's a lot. More than 10% of your budget gone.
[18:37] <ReggieUK> but providing it as an add on unit would seem like a decent option for rf modulator
[18:37] <zgedneil> mdavey: I was just surprised that composite is considered sufficiently universal, I'm sure it's fine for the UK
[18:37] <ReggieUK> not raspi but the community
[18:37] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: looks like $4 for a car plug -> microusb for that type of power
[18:38] <ShiftPlusOne> well the car plug is already taking 12v dc, how much for 110-240v AC?
[18:38] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne: depends where you go. Straight from the manufacturer, they are almost the same price as any other type of tip.
[18:39] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: looks like $7.25 for a nokia microusb wall wart (1.2A at 5V)
[18:39] <mdavey> zgedneil: Most TVs have composite or scart input unless you go older than 1980s.
[18:39] <traeak> how many tv's have usb out ?
[18:40] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, then there's a good reason to go for a standard dc jack.
[18:40] <mdavey> about $3.5 for 5v 1A PUS with micro USB, from China.
[18:40] <mdavey> in quantity.
[18:40] <mdavey> *PSU
[18:41] <traeak> mdavey: yeah, i was just looking at dealextreme
[18:41] * Ross_ (~ross@188-221-247-176.zone12.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:41] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: cell phone chargers at .75/1A are extremely common
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[18:42] <traeak> I don't honestly know where i woudl go to buy a 5V barrel plug DC adapter
[18:42] <traeak> that wouldn't charge me an arm and a leg for it
[18:42] <traeak> and there's the stupidity of all the different barrel sizes in use
[18:42] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, and you'd still have an arm and a leg to spare, stop complaining.
[18:42] <Ross_> Some background on older VideoCore devices: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1550682
[18:43] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[18:44] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: excwept the problem of buying the *wrong* barrel adapter because of all the different barrel sizes out there ... i've been burned by this before
[18:45] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, as someone else has said, you can always attach the wires directly.
[18:48] <ShiftPlusOne> Lol.... reading an old journal of the guy who wrote Prince of Persia. "But it would take time away from screenwriting. In the time it?ll take me to do a new game, I could write three screenplays. And? the games business is drying up."
[18:49] <ShiftPlusOne> Almost didn't write the game to do screenplays >_<
[18:50] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: the only way you can convince me that a barrel is better than a microusb for power in is if the cost of the adapter is dramatically different
[18:51] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, I am not trying to convince you, I understand it's more convenient for many people. I've just got a box of old adaptors, so it's not a problem for me.
[18:51] <mdavey> Ross_ thanks. So was the die based on any other architecture, or was it entirely homegrown as CC/Alphamosaic?
[18:51] <mdavey> s/as/at/
[18:53] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: i'm not sure how it's not more convenient for all people, also since a microusb by definition has a unique connector and a hard specified voltage it seems a no brainer. It also means for me i can play with an rpi with just reusing a microsd, getting a $1 usb cable since i wouldn't need an external power supply.
[18:53] <Ross_> From scratch, homegrown CPU arch.
[18:53] <mdavey> okay
[18:54] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, the developing world comes to mind.
[18:55] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: which is going with cell phones in place of hard wired telephone lines...those cell phones use microusdb for their charging ports
[18:55] <mdavey> Is that arch used by anything else other than VideoCore?
[18:55] <Ross_> Not that I am aware
[18:55] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: i don't see where they would be able to as easily find a barrel charger
[18:56] <ShiftPlusOne> traeak, do you think there are presently more dc adaptors around there or smartphones?
[18:57] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: not smartphones...stupid cell phones where the current standard is microusb...
[18:57] * Ross_ (~ross@188-221-247-176.zone12.bethere.co.uk) has left #raspberrypi
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[18:57] <rm> http://gizmodo.com/5389063/united-nations-approves-microusb-universal-phone-charger-standard
[18:58] <rm> btw I have a totally dumb cheapest phone which uses Mini-USB for charging
[18:58] <rm> it doesn't even detect when plugged into a PC
[18:58] <rm> just draws the current
[18:58] <traeak> rm: exactly
[18:58] <rm> extremely convenient, don't have to carry a charger around, mini-usb cable is easy to find and/or have in places you usually stop
[18:59] <rm> I don't like they went with microus
[18:59] <rm> b
[18:59] <rm> it looks smallish and fragile
[18:59] <mdavey> ShiftPlusOne/traeak: I think the point is it is hard to second-guess. My best guess would be with traeak, but the R.Pi team are doing masses of homework so if they select a barrel connector it will be because their research has shown that in developing countries its much easier to source a PSU with that type of connector.
[18:59] <traeak> rm: apparently microUSB can withstand a LOT more plug/unplug cycles
[18:59] <ShiftPlusOne> I am not going to pretend I know anything about the developing world, I haven't been to many countries, but I am sure that.... well what mdavey said.
[18:59] <rm> also I recently bought a cellphone charger locally, for about $3
[18:59] <rm> it came with several changeable 'heads' for its cellphone-side connector
[19:00] <rm> to support several kinds of phones
[19:00] <traeak> rm: because i also wondered why micro usb even exists, i thougth mini was just fine
[19:00] <rm> actually the problem with those is the voltage
[19:00] <rm> this one has 4.5V, the shop also had 6V etc
[19:00] <rm> no, this one is 5V actually
[19:00] <rm> they had 4.5, 5, 6
[19:03] <traeak> one point peopel were making on the forums...and no comment was made in reply...was that a powered USB hub could also power the rpi itself (power only mode) and all the connected peripherals. not sure how cheap you can get a powered usb hub for though
[19:03] <mdavey> Interestingly, beagleboard xm and pandaboard continue to use a DC jack.
[19:04] <traeak> beagleboard and pandaboard have much larger power requirements, i don't think a microusb phone charger could power them
[19:04] <Ross_> I thought the reply was to do with USB being a USB Host on the board rather than a USB slave?
[19:04] <traeak> use microusb port for charge only, not usb slave
[19:04] <traeak> i mean power only (hehe)
[19:05] <mdavey> Yes, I think its very non-standard for a USB hup to power the upstream device - normally you would expect the upstream device to power the hub.
[19:05] <mdavey> *hub
[19:05] <traeak> yes, that's why powered usb hubs exist..that would have the wall wart with it
[19:06] <traeak> pandaboard needs 5V/4amps
[19:07] <traeak> interesting, that's 20W
[19:07] <mdavey> traeak: they would still normally only power the downstream ports. One option would be to loop back one of the downstream ports to the R.Pi.
[19:08] <traeak> mdavey: exactly, the rpi would have 2 connections to the hub. one upstream (power only),one downstream (signal only)
[19:08] <mdavey> ^^ like this: http://specialcomp.com/beagleboard/
[19:08] <mdavey> yup
[19:09] <traeak> this all depends on the rpi being able to run on 5V/750mA ...
[19:09] <Ross_> You could still do this with a USB A to barrel plug style cable (like you sometimes see with external USB hdd cases)
[19:10] <traeak> i've honestly never seen one of these
[19:10] <traeak> but that would be a good solution
[19:10] <Ross_> http://www.amazon.co.uk/StarTech-com-Type-Barrel-Power-Cable/sim/B003MQO96U/2
[19:13] <traeak> and then there's the barrel size confusion (no thanks to the cell phone manufacturers)
[19:13] <traeak> and polarity is another one they screwed with
[19:16] <ctyler> alas, this was a mess long before cell phones
[19:17] <traeak> defintely. the EU did some good pushing *something* as a standard
[19:22] <ukscone> quick straw poll -- what os will you be using for r-pi development when you get your sticky mitts on one?
[19:22] <ShiftPlusOne> I'll stick with my OpenSUSE
[19:22] <DaQatz> Deb and gentoo here.
[19:22] <ShiftPlusOne> or gentoo... I tend to come back to Gentoo quite often.
[19:22] <traeak> http://www.amazon.com/USB-Highspeed-Port-Adapter-Silver/dp/B002FFZGCU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1314638466&sr=8-3
[19:22] <traeak> i switched from gentoo over to arch
[19:23] <ShiftPlusOne> "Spent much of today working on the logistical problem of how to get the footage from a VHS tape into the computer. I finally (tentatively) settled on photographing the frames one by one with a regular 35mm camera, getting prints made, then (after retouching as needed) digitizing the prints with a regular Sony video camera. It sounds like a pain but I think it?s the best way."... Heh... we have it so easy nowadays.
[19:24] <DaQatz> Gentoo at it's "high end" often has issues, but "closer to the metal" it is wonderful.
[19:24] <traeak> they screwed up the 'use flags'
[19:24] <traeak> there's about 10x too many
[19:25] <DaQatz> Their baselayout2 "upgrade" was a real mess.
[19:25] <ShiftPlusOne> ...heathens.
[19:26] <traeak> DaQatz: hehe, there's the fiasco with jpeg upgrade, libpng12 upgrade, it goes on and on with gentoo's mass breakage
[19:26] <DaQatz> Use flag issues tend to be easy to fix.
[19:26] <traeak> i also recall the openssl train wreck
[19:26] <traeak> i had a couple of machines go unbootable due to that
[19:27] <DaQatz> The baselayout2 issue ended up being a "Huh wow everything seems to be ok" but wow you network access is "haywire"
[19:27] <DaQatz> Ended up having to switch that box to deb
[19:27] <traeak> DaQatz: so i went over ot arch...although it has its own headaches
[19:27] <DaQatz> They all do
[19:28] <DaQatz> No such thing as a perfect OS
[19:29] <traeak> my quibble with arch has more to do with some of their choices about packages, what binary compatibility they chose for glibc (affects using arch as a release build machine), etc
[19:30] <traeak> and the stubbornness of the maintainers to budge on those things
[19:30] <traeak> i would hope to have an rpi specific targeted "de facto" linux release to go to
[19:32] <ukscone> ReggieUK: you see that liz said jamesh is goign to give stellerarium a go
[19:32] <mdavey> yea, I just read that :D
[19:33] <traeak> sweet, very good use for the rpi
[19:33] <traeak> hopefully the gpu is good at vector stuff as well
[19:33] <mdavey> its a good follow up to the quake / -dont-use-it-for-games-youre-supposed-to-be-an-educational-charity debacle
[19:34] <ukscone> i've just finished rebuilding alot of ncurses based apps that i had built for pxa270 that in theory shoudl work plus busybox and dropbear
[19:34] <traeak> except games is what gets kids interested :-p
[19:34] <ukscone> so we'll have tons of s/w
[19:35] * mdavey is wishing really hard for an OSS kodu clone
[19:35] <ukscone> wth is kodu?
[19:36] <mdavey> it is a games creator for the Xbox: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/
[19:37] <mdavey> a visual programming language
[19:37] <ukscone> ah ok
[19:37] <mdavey> watch this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/9504208.stm
[19:38] <ukscone> http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2030 this would be fun
[19:38] <ukscone> except not opensource
[19:39] * diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:39] <ukscone> we just broke your old users in irc channel record
[19:40] <ukscone> 32 humans, a bot and chanserv
[19:42] <mdavey> ukscone: Yup, not open source. But hopefully a clone or similar OSS app will appear on the scene in the near future. At least, that's what I'm hoping.
[19:43] <ukscone> mdavey: what was the name of that text adventure game writer thing for the specrum? the quill or something wasn't it?
[19:44] <mdavey> ukscone no idea, sorry.
[19:44] <ukscone> mdavey: so what use are you? you are supposed to be my memory bank for all things 1980s s/w related :D
[19:45] <mdavey> unaligned address
[19:45] <zgedneil> ukscone: quill or GAC
[19:45] <amandarn> dunet was an awesome adventure game
[19:45] <amandarn> also... zork :x
[19:46] <amandarn> But they were not for the spectrom
[19:46] <zgedneil> amandarn: you can run zork on the spectrum +3
[19:46] <amandarn> The original one ?
[19:46] <zgedneil> yes, it can run CP/M
[19:47] <amandarn> I wonder if there is a port of zork
[19:47] <amandarn> No matches found.
[19:47] <zgedneil> amandarn: it was in the last CoD game :-)
[19:47] <amandarn> ?
[19:47] <zgedneil> call of duty, it was an easter egg in black ops
[19:47] <amandarn> Seriously
[19:47] <zgedneil> well, activision own the rights, so...
[19:48] <amandarn> Damn, I have to buy blackops and a windows to play zork !
[19:48] <zgedneil> lol
[19:48] <amandarn> About games
[19:48] <zgedneil> there are plenty of things that run z-code though
[19:48] <amandarn> Any idea of a game that cannot run without a graphic card under GNU/Linux ?
[19:49] <zgedneil> most 3D things would be unplayable without hardware 3D, if that's what you mean
[19:49] <amandarn> Because... I can play teeworlds pretty nicely but I'm not even sure the graphic card is used
[19:49] <zgedneil> tuxracer springs to mind I guess, not really familiar with many 3D games on Linux
[19:49] <amandarn> So about any 3D games would do, i guess :)
[19:49] <amandarn> Thanks
[19:50] <zgedneil> anything above about PS1 level will generally be a bit too much for software-only, depending on CPU
[19:50] <zgedneil> you could probably do quite a bit more on something modern actually, but you get the idea
[19:51] <amandarn> Okay
[19:52] <amandarn> How comes the R.Pi can run Quake 3?
[19:52] <amandarn> Or maybe just Quake ?
[19:52] <zgedneil> amandarn: the main chip is ARM + hardware 3D + other bits
[19:52] <amandarn> okay
[19:52] <zgedneil> it's a system-on-a-chip job
[19:53] * diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[19:53] <zgedneil> to be fair quake 3 was on the dreamcast so it's not some ultimate benchmark or anything, but not a bad demo at least
[19:54] * spvensko (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
[19:54] * spvensko_ (~spvensko@nom24312b.nomadic.ncsu.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:54] <amandarn> I may download warsow
[19:54] * spvensko_ (~spvensko@nom24312b.nomadic.ncsu.edu) Quit (Changing host)
[19:54] * spvensko_ (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:54] * spvensko_ (~spvensko@unaffiliated/spvensko) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:55] <amandarn> to test if my graphic card is alive
[20:06] <amandarn> ok, seems my graphic card is not alive :(
[20:06] <ReggieUK> kobo deluxe will run on linux without a gfx card
[20:07] <ReggieUK> it'll need a framebuffer driver though
[20:07] <traeak> what kind of card ?
[20:07] <ShiftPlusOne> Anyone here play Dwarf Fortress?
[20:07] <Thorn_> a bit
[20:09] <ShiftPlusOne> Would there be any legal issues in making a game inspired by another game and completely stealing the main concept?
[20:09] <Thorn_> not really
[20:09] <ukscone> frmebuffer is something i need to check how to use on the r-pi -- i think i saw that it is exposed from the booting messages on the alphaboards post
[20:09] * xlq (~apropos@89-168-180-243.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:09] <Thorn_> afaik there is an american look and feel act that you can get done under, that's about it.
[20:09] <Thorn_> and if it's a game, nobody really cares
[20:09] <Thorn_> e.g look at terraria and minecraft
[20:10] <ShiftPlusOne> I've got a really strong urge to re-write DF in multiplayer
[20:10] <Thorn_> the 'core' concept is really identical :P
[20:10] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: that's not a ripoff, that's called good thinking :P
[20:11] <Thorn_> need to make it server based
[20:11] <Thorn_> have 6000 people on one server :P
[20:11] <ShiftPlusOne> lol, the game can barely handle 1 player
[20:11] <Thorn_> poor code, fixing that would come with the rewrite :P
[20:12] <Thorn_> you could probably host a 6000 player server on an rpi if it was written properly
[20:12] <ShiftPlusOne> Also the level of complexity is amazing... it would be hard to preserve that
[20:13] * diggy (~UNIX@178-52-123.dynamic.cyta.gr) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:13] <ShiftPlusOne> Also the character based graphics have something to them. All you see is a little letters or symbols moving around, but you have vivid imagery of a dragon ripping your poor dwarves to pieces leaving a bloody mess of body parts around.
[20:16] <ShiftPlusOne> C++/SDL should do, I think
[20:17] <Thorn_> what are you going to use SDL for?
[20:17] <Thorn_> network layer?
[20:17] <ShiftPlusOne> and graphics... and sound
[20:17] <Thorn_> df has sound?
[20:17] <ReggieUK> and input?
[20:17] <Thorn_> and doesnt it run in a terminal
[20:18] <ShiftPlusOne> ...and input
[20:18] <ukscone> http://www.tmz.com/2011/08/29/justin-bieber-music-video-vevo-youtube-hacked-ilcreation-baby-somebody-to-love-that-should-be-me/ lol give the guy a medal and get him to do riana and britney videos next
[20:19] <ReggieUK> http://lazyfoo.net/SDL_tutorials/index.php
[20:20] <ShiftPlusOne> I am really excited about this DF-like game idea. =)
[20:21] <Thorn_> so i just downloaded df again
[20:21] <Thorn_> i don't remember it being anything like this :D
[20:21] <ShiftPlusOne> so.... fortress mode, not adventure mode, right?
[20:21] <ShiftPlusOne> multiplayer adventure df would be a bit too MUDdy
[20:23] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[20:23] <zgedneil> I never knew seeing how much disk space you were using could be so exciting
[20:24] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, what are you using? windirstat?
[20:24] <zgedneil> um... df
[20:24] <ReggieUK> what's df?
[20:24] <ShiftPlusOne> OH
[20:24] <ShiftPlusOne> I see what you did there
[20:24] <ReggieUK> dog fart?
[20:24] <zgedneil> I must be missing the multiplayer options
[20:24] <ShiftPlusOne> lol
[20:24] <Thorn_> lol
[20:24] <zgedneil> maybe that's NFS :-)
[20:25] <zgedneil> that said, maybe the other df could do with the --human-readable option too
[20:25] <ShiftPlusOne> what is that option?
[20:25] <zgedneil> also, what does it say about GNU that human readable is NOT the default?
[20:26] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: give them in "sensible" units
[20:26] <zgedneil> like the most appropriate so you have less than 4 digits, e.g. 123MB
[20:26] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, >_<
[20:27] <zgedneil> I prefer machine-readable df TBH
[20:27] <ShiftPlusOne> I keep forgetting you're not talking about dwarf fortress, so in my mind I am thinking "yes, DF could be a bit more user-friendly... perhaps a simcity-like interface... of wait, he's talking about the other df"
[20:27] <ShiftPlusOne> *or
[20:27] <ShiftPlusOne> **oh
[20:27] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: that's actually what I was going for
[20:27] <amandarn> traeak: a radeon one
[20:28] <zgedneil> I thought it was hilarious when I tried DF and it needed SDL or something just to show me a text interface
[20:28] <amandarn> ShiftPlusOne: DwarfFortress is a roguelike isn't it ?
[20:28] <ShiftPlusOne> amandarn, I wouldn't call it roguelike, no.
[20:28] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:28] <Thorn_> pretty sure it used to run in a terminal
[20:29] <atts> SDL can be used as a multithreading lib too, maybe they used it for that
[20:30] <zgedneil> I wonder what kind of emulation you could do on a pi where the 3D hardware would help, but I can't help thinking the processor would hold it back
[20:30] <zgedneil> atts: the game started in a window
[20:30] <zgedneil> and ran slowly IIRC
[20:31] <zgedneil> I wouldn't be surprised if it was using OpenGL or something
[20:32] <ReggieUK> sdl can use open gl
[20:32] <zgedneil> well, yes
[20:32] <ReggieUK> and the raspi will have open gl es 2 on it
[20:32] <zgedneil> I was talking about DF still
[20:32] <Thorn_> which will rock
[20:32] <atts> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_Fortress#History
[20:33] <atts> sounds like it uses opengl and the text is composed of bitmaps
[20:33] <zgedneil> that's awesomely bad
[20:33] <zgedneil> maybe nobody cares under windows though
[20:33] <ShiftPlusOne> yes, it can do with a re-write
[20:34] <zgedneil> oh, is the first lot of pis really not going to have any kind of case? That seems tremendously odd to me
[20:34] <ShiftPlusOne> historically it was text-only, but people started making new character sets for it and now they have opengl mode and can use proper bitmaps for the characters
[20:34] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, why is that? cases are for the weak
[20:34] <Thorn_> well.. if it's using opengl, better to have the fonts as bitmapfonts rather than converting to glTexture when you render through opengl
[20:34] <ShiftPlusOne> in fact my main PC is missing half of the case
[20:34] <ctyler> and those with metal tables
[20:35] <ReggieUK> brb, dinner time
[20:35] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: well it's just a PCB, it makes any talk of robustness elsewhere kind of absurd
[20:35] <ReggieUK> like hammer time but smaller trousers
[20:35] * Ross_ (~ross@188-221-247-176.zone12.bethere.co.uk) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:35] <ShiftPlusOne> zgedneil, don't understimate the PCB.
[20:35] <zgedneil> lol
[20:35] <zgedneil> I've trod on PCBs in my time
[20:35] <ukscone> nooooooooo someone left now we aren't at our highest user number
[20:35] <zgedneil> and yes, ouch
[20:35] <ukscone> quick grab someone and log them in
[20:35] <ctyler> I think the packaging for the PCB should be something that can serve as a basic case
[20:35] <ctyler> even if cardboard
[20:36] <ukscone> ctyler: you mean like what i'm working on atm
[20:36] <zgedneil> I think media coverage of the release is going to be a bit "WTF" if there's no case
[20:36] <ukscone> except it's a cerael box
[20:36] <zgedneil> maybe that doesn't matter
[20:37] <Thorn_> zgedneil: the ones aimed at education will have a case afaik, the first ones are just hobbyist boards
[20:37] <ukscone> the hd is in a tupperware bowl
[20:37] <zgedneil> Thorn_: they're still the first ones though, how much coverage would "now we're doing some more!" going to get in comparison :-)
[20:37] <zgedneil> s/would/is/
[20:37] <ShiftPlusOne> ctyler, that's an interesting idea. SparkFun have those cool little carbboard boxes they ship stuff in. They use them as cases in some demos. It would be cool to have something similar where the thing in which the raspis ship can be used as a case.
[20:38] <zgedneil> ukscone: just add milk
[20:38] <zgedneil> maybe they could give them away free with cornflakes?
[20:38] <ukscone> it goes snap, crackle and pop then futzzzzzzz
[20:39] <zgedneil> my last HD died on my in approximately that timeframe at least
[20:39] <zgedneil> me*
[20:39] <mdavey> That's when you'll really know: when you can send off weetabix barcodes and get one
[20:39] <ctyler> no, it's when the wheetabix barcode *is* one
[20:40] <ukscone> it's when the weetabix IS the raspberry pi -- yum crunchy
[20:40] <zgedneil> I'm not sure I'm really convinced that hobbyists don't care about a case, frankly
[20:40] <ukscone> i went looking for a box of weetabix a few weeks ago -- nearly $10 for an 18 count box -- talk about price gouging
[20:40] <zgedneil> not everyone is gagging to attack one with a soldering iron
[20:41] <mdavey> cases will appear just in time. Or just out of time. Its one of the easiest things for the community to provide.
[20:41] <Thorn_> well afaik the first boards are erally just test boards...
[20:41] <ctyler> I think a printable origami one will appear quickly
[20:41] <zgedneil> liz said they'd be "finished", so - finished without a case?
[20:41] <mdavey> plastic ones will appear quickly
[20:41] <Thorn_> zgedneil: soldering iron? no, welders torch.
[20:42] <ShiftPlusOne> Hmm... just fired up my wiki where I keep my "I have an idea" notes (which I haven't used in years). Seems like I was working on a portable linux system which would be kept on the USB and could be booted into directly or through qemu and coLinux. Is there anything like that out right now?
[20:42] <ukscone> no not a welder torch. a thermonuclear bomb -- need to really vapourize the solder
[20:42] <ukscone> don't need no solder sucker then
[20:42] <zgedneil> ShiftPlusOne: that sounds like a first
[20:42] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: lots of thinix like it
[20:42] <zgedneil> or would if I wasn't lying
[20:42] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[20:42] <ukscone> cheix is a new one
[20:42] <ukscone> then there is portable ubuntu
[20:43] <Thorn_> PortableUbuntu?
[20:43] <Thorn_> do they call it poobuntu?
[20:43] <Thorn_> it matches the brown colour theme they always use...
[20:43] <ShiftPlusOne> heh
[20:43] <zgedneil> so much for ShiftPlusOne "I have an idea" speech
[20:44] <zgedneil> has a nice ring to it
[20:44] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:44] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah I remember the problem I had. I wanted it to be a full-featured distro, but qemu was too slow and colinux needed admin rights.
[20:44] <zgedneil> I don't suppose user-mode linux runs on Windows?
[20:44] <ShiftPlusOne> that would be colinux
[20:45] <zgedneil> yeah, I knew that
[20:45] * zgedneil shifts uneasily
[20:46] <ShiftPlusOne> Anyway... to get the dwarfs-like game notes written down while I am still excited about it.... quick what's a good non-legally-troubling name for it?
[20:46] <zgedneil> midget mansion
[20:46] <ShiftPlusOne> no, I don't like midgets.. but the mansion has a nice ring to it... though it does sound like maniac mansion... awesome game that.
[20:47] <zgedneil> you don't like midgets? what did they ever do to you?
[20:47] <ShiftPlusOne> exactly, what have they ever done for me?
[20:48] <Thorn_> stood behind you in line and smelled your ass
[20:48] <ShiftPlusOne> never happened
[20:48] <zgedneil> I wasn't aware that was regarded as a service
[20:48] <Thorn_> there's a niche market for everything
[20:49] <ShiftPlusOne> there was a video up a while ago captured on CCTV. A supermarket employee was stacking shelves and some customer kept sniffing his arse while he wasn't looking, so I think Thorn_ might be right.
[20:49] <zgedneil> I blame the internet
[20:49] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: virtically challenged homestead?
[20:50] <Thorn_> DaftFortress
[20:50] <zgedneil> beardy workhouse
[20:51] <ShiftPlusOne> it seems like Dwarf Fortress have the ideal name, you can't out-do it.
[20:51] <atts> dwarf fortress 2
[20:51] <zgedneil> dwarf fortress 3: dwarf with a vengeance
[20:51] <ukscone> dwarf mott and bailey castle?
[20:51] <Thorn_> set it in germany and call it dwarfenstein ?
[20:52] <ShiftPlusOne> >_<.... I think I'll codename it Dwarfenstein for now.
[20:52] <ukscone> just call it duke nukem forever reloaded
[20:52] <zgedneil> the duke nukem jokes kind of withered after it was actually released though
[20:52] <ukscone> yeah i know really ruined my stand up routine
[20:52] * xlq (~apropos@89-168-180-243.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has left #raspberrypi
[20:53] <zgedneil> unless you regard the game itself as the joke at this point
[20:53] <ShiftPlusOne> damn Duke Nukem forever sucks =(
[20:53] <Thorn_> it was pretty bad
[20:53] <ukscone> http://www2.b3ta.com/heyhey16k/ everyone seen this before?
[20:53] <Thorn_> i want an inline-browser for irssi
[20:53] <Thorn_> so i dont have to click links
[20:53] <zgedneil> ukscone: I don't have the words to express how old that is
[20:54] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[20:54] <ukscone> zgedneil: yup but still fun
[20:54] <zgedneil> in other news, I heard about this great website called google.com
[20:54] <ukscone> no i use altavista
[20:54] <Thorn_> askjeeves
[20:54] <ukscone> and lycos if really stuck
[20:54] <zgedneil> gopher FTW
[20:55] <ukscone> gopher is too flashy
[20:55] <mdavey> ah, they don't make games like that any more
[20:55] <ukscone> minitel (and prestel) via IPSS ftw
[20:56] <zgedneil> UK broadband does a pretty good impression of 1200/75 as it happens
[20:56] <zgedneil> just check your upload rates
[20:57] <ukscone> zgedneil: i would but i ain't in the uk :)
[20:57] <zgedneil> I caught that earlier, I should have said "the" :-)
[20:57] <ukscone> i have 10Mb down 512Kb up
[20:57] <ukscone> well actually nearer 15 down
[20:57] <ukscone> but the 512 up sucks
[20:58] <zgedneil> that's actually a bigger disparity than 1200/75
[20:58] <ukscone> friend is a lucky ba***** and gets 50up 50down
[20:58] <zgedneil> plus ca change
[20:58] <ukscone> and he's 4 streets away
[20:59] * gomiboy (~frodone@ppp-41-18.21-151.libero.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:59] <zgedneil> I think they tend to be "only" 10:1
[20:59] <ukscone> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=303.0 sometimes i wish it was legal to hunt humans
[21:00] <zgedneil> much beyond that and I think you're actually throttling your download with it
[21:00] <Thorn_> you can get 50mbit fiber here
[21:00] <Thorn_> 50mbit down/ 892kbit up
[21:00] <zgedneil> lol
[21:01] <ReggieUK> meh
[21:01] <Thorn_> notably, i outperform everyone round here on fiber with my dsl max
[21:01] <ReggieUK> they missed loads of titles on that 16k song
[21:01] <ReggieUK> pacman, space panic, scramble
[21:01] <zgedneil> they probably remember them on worldofspectrum.com though
[21:02] <zgedneil> or do I mean .org, it's been a while
[21:02] <DaQatz> ukscone, but you can hunt people on the internet. We just call it stalking.
[21:02] <Thorn_> erm
[21:02] <Thorn_> 'Hackerspace' ?
[21:02] <zgedneil> apparently I do mean .org
[21:04] <ukscone> DaQatz: but i haven't perfected sending a 50 calibre round through a cable modem yet
[21:04] <ukscone> i keep trying but it doesn't make it passed the circuit board
[21:04] <DaQatz> ukscone, For that caliber you need more "band width"
[21:04] <DaQatz> >.>
[21:05] <ukscone> it's the same problem with trying to email beer. not enough bandwidth
[21:13] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, did you say that the exact raspi cpu is available in git's qemu under -cpu?
[21:14] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has left #raspberrypi
[21:15] <ukscone> well near enough in the git version
[21:15] <ukscone> 1176
[21:15] <ukscone> arm1176 even
[21:15] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, i don't have it for some reason... is there some special branch?
[21:15] <ukscone> nope i just pulled git
[21:16] <ukscone> it saws it's 0.15.50
[21:16] <ukscone> s/saws/says
[21:16] <ShiftPlusOne> =/
[21:16] <ShiftPlusOne> hmmmmmm
[21:17] <ShiftPlusOne> why the hell is my version 0.13.50 then
[21:18] <ShiftPlusOne> git://git.savannah.nongnu.org/qemu.git ?
[21:18] * ReimuHakurei_ (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:18] <ShiftPlusOne> "Current branch master is up to date."
[21:18] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:19] <ukscone> git clone git://git.qemu.org/qemu.git
[21:19] <ukscone> the savannah git is depricated i believe
[21:19] <DaQatz> V 0.15.0 doesn't support 1176
[21:19] <ShiftPlusOne> that would make sense
[21:19] <ShiftPlusOne> DaQatz, yup, that's why we're using git
[21:20] <ukscone> DaQatz: they started adding it in junee this year
[21:20] <ukscone> the git has it
[21:21] <ukscone> http://pastebin.com/eSgTrCYR
[21:23] <ShiftPlusOne> isn't the compile time a bit annoying working from virtualbox?
[21:23] <ukscone> nah not really
[21:24] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah, i can't say I've noticed much of a difference after switching
[21:24] <ukscone> oe is a pain as 24 hours for a full rootfs but buildroot is about 1 to 4 hours and scratchbox2 is hardly anytime at all
[21:26] <ukscone> ok all the people in the uk can get a chance to play with an alpha board -- i call discrimiation and bias against ex-pats i want compensation
[21:26] <ukscone> i've turned all a,merican :) sue anyone you can if they slight you or make your coffee too hot or discriminate
[21:27] <ShiftPlusOne> no need to be mean to the yanks.
[21:27] <Thorn_> (there's always a reason to be mean to muricans)
[21:27] <ukscone> yes there is. it's fun
[21:27] <ukscone> almost as much fun as telling old aussie jokes about britain's largest open air prision :)
[21:28] <Thorn_> btw that transfersummit site is revolting
[21:28] <Thorn_> raspberrypi is all the way at the bottom!
[21:29] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, sure, but Australians can laugh at themselves (we have to), Americans get all defensive.
[21:29] <Thorn_> so, need to get down to oxford, and not get caught with a raspberrypi in my pocket on the way out...
[21:30] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, the trick is to walk out with it like you own it.
[21:30] <ukscone> is that a raspberry pi in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me
[21:30] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: I did that with a ??500 AV meter from rosyth dockyard
[21:31] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: they remove the sense of humour from americans at birth. it's a manditory opeeration
[21:31] <Thorn_> when they fired me
[21:31] <ukscone> Thorn_: what did they fire you for? walking out with tools and hardware?
[21:31] <Thorn_> no :P
[21:32] <Thorn_> absence, lateness
[21:32] <Thorn_> was still in my teens
[21:32] <Thorn_> avometer*
[21:33] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah, i've done a lot of things I wouldn't admit to in my teens
[21:33] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: yes that sheep is still in therapy
[21:33] <ShiftPlusOne> lol, no that's not public record
[21:33] <ShiftPlusOne> *on
[21:34] <ShiftPlusOne> So... why the sheep jokes? We don't even have that many Sheep.
[21:34] <ShiftPlusOne> I thought your sheep jokes were saved for the Welsh (over here, it's NZ)
[21:35] <ukscone> yes they are for the welsh but they have sheep in australia
[21:36] <ukscone> and well thee only other australian jokes i know are kylie mini-hog and jason donoven
[21:37] <ShiftPlusOne> no idea what you're talking about, lol.
[21:38] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: you don't know jason donovan and kylie minouge or however you spell it -- neighbours, everyone needs good neighbours. sons and daughters and prisioner cell block h and all those other aussie soaps
[21:38] <Thorn_> my god git is slow
[21:39] <Thorn_> i started a git clone of qemu about 2 hours ago
[21:39] <Thorn_> it downloaded all that stuff in about 30 seconds... then gets stuck "Compressing objects"
[21:39] <ShiftPlusOne> no, Australians don't actually watch crappy shows like Neighbours, we just export it to England, where people actually watch it.
[21:39] <ukscone> :)
[21:39] <Thorn_> it's at 6% now, seems to be doing 1 file every 2 seconds.... only 30000 files to go
[21:39] <Thorn_> and it's using 0% cpu usage...
[21:39] <ukscone> Thorn_: wth are you cloning because it took about 10 minutes here
[21:40] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, same here.... the savannah repo downloaded almost instantly... this is taking ages.
[21:40] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: where did it slow down for you?
[21:40] <ukscone> building qemu with lettign qemu build everything it could on this system took about 40 mins give or take
[21:40] <Thorn_> it was fine... until git got to "Remote: Compressing objects"
[21:41] * ReimuHakurei_ (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[21:41] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, it hasn't been fast..."remote: Counting objects: 87627, done." and now it's doing nothing.
[21:41] <Thorn_> ah yeah
[21:41] <Thorn_> it hung for about 20 minutes there for me
[21:42] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:43] <ShiftPlusOne> I blame ukscone
[21:43] <ShiftPlusOne> he downloaded all the files first, so now there's a deficit of files.
[21:44] <ukscone> it is slower today -- just doing a test clone
[21:45] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:45] <Thorn_> seems 'Compressing Objects' is done on the server, I guess the cpu is being hammered... shouldn't they keep that in memory rather than recompressing everytime someone does a gitclone ?
[21:45] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:50] <ukscone> hmmmm the whole of qemu.org is slooooooow
[21:51] <ShiftPlusOne> who's jamesh? is he working on the board? is he from broadcom or cambridge?
[21:51] <Thorn_> are they on dreamhost or something? :P
[21:54] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: think he is part of the foundation and one of the core engineers of the device along with eeeben
[21:54] <ukscone> eben even stupid e key
[21:54] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[21:55] <ShiftPlusOne> Ah ok
[22:03] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[22:05] <ShiftPlusOne> What are some of the problems with dwarf fortress?
[22:25] <ReggieUK> it's the wrong genre for my liking?
[22:26] <ukscone> dwarfist
[22:26] <ReggieUK> hardly, I don't like fortresses
[22:27] <ukscone> ok forttressist
[22:27] <ukscone> try saying that 3 times fast
[22:27] <ReggieUK> done
[22:27] <ReggieUK> tbh I'm not really into man with pointy hat and stick games
[22:28] <ReggieUK> give me an fps any day
[22:28] <ReggieUK> preferably with frag grenades of some sort
[22:39] <zgedneil> my main complaint about dwarf fortress is that it doesn't tell you how much disk space you're using
[22:53] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[22:53] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:00] <ShiftPlusOne> making progress.... int main(){system("df");return 0;}
[23:00] <DaQatz> ?
[23:00] <DaQatz> What is you're doing?
[23:01] <ShiftPlusOne> DaQatz, if I explained then it would defeat the purpose
[23:02] <Thorn_> well it's moved on to Receiving Objects for the git clone
[23:02] <Thorn_> 1KiB/s
[23:02] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, nice.. I cancelled mine and will retry tomorrow
[23:02] <DaQatz> Speedy!
[23:02] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne: i'm persistent :P
[23:02] <Thorn_> 2% already
[23:03] <ShiftPlusOne> ok... when you're done, upload them for me to steal >.>
[23:05] <DaQatz> I plan on cross compiling that version for windows32 and windows64 too.
[23:05] <DaQatz> A lot of the people who want r-pi are windows users.
[23:09] <traeak> hmm....just as long as there isn't a forced windows development eco system
[23:09] <traeak> that would be very very very bad
[23:13] <DaQatz> traeak, I'm only doing that so I can give the bins to people using windows.
[23:13] <DaQatz> traeak, That way they can run an emu for the R-pi's cpu too.
[23:15] <ShiftPlusOne> Anyone use KDevelop here?
[23:32] * ShiftPlusOne (~shift@124-168-118-249.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[23:34] * shift_ (~shift@124-168-118-249.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:34] * shift_ is now known as ShiftPlusOne
[23:37] <traeak> DaQatz: good about emus, yeah.
[23:43] <traeak> vim :-p
[23:58] <Thorn_> oh wow, it sped up
[23:59] <Thorn_> for a few seconds anyway
[23:59] <Thorn_> done!

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