#raspberrypi IRC Log

Index

IRC Log for 2011-09-01

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:06] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[0:07] * ReimuHakurei (~kudo@wireless.sit-co.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:09] <ukscone> rehoi all
[0:11] <ShiftPlusOne> hey
[0:11] <ukscone> oats
[0:13] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: how goes the purple prose?
[0:14] <ShiftPlusOne> oats? O_o
[0:14] <ShiftPlusOne> and the tutorials are coming along slowly... I got sucked into youtube and the forum for a while.
[0:21] <ukscone> :)
[0:22] <ukscone> just posted about the targus usb2 port replicator instead of building a dock for the raspi. it works really well on other linux arm devices i havee and you can find them if you look for between $10 and $79
[0:22] <ukscone> and you say hey (hay) so the approriate response is oats or barley
[0:23] <ukscone> s/say/said
[0:24] <ShiftPlusOne> ok, must be a yank thing I guess.
[0:24] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:25] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: no it's a brit thing stop accusing me of being american
[0:25] <ukscone> next you'll accuse me of having 4 arms and a 12 foot nose
[0:28] <ShiftPlusOne> 'foot' sounds like an Imperial unit to me.
[0:29] <ukscone> well i never agreed with the metric system anyway
[0:29] <ukscone> nd things went to hell after decimalization
[0:30] <traeak> hay is for horses
[0:30] <IT_Sean> down with metric!
[0:30] <ukscone> give them an inch and they'll take 25mm
[0:30] <IT_Sean> exactly!
[0:33] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
[0:41] <ShiftPlusOne> Should I put the information about various linux filesystems and how to create and use them with qemu into a separate page or under "Working with QEMU"?
[0:43] <ukscone> working with qemu
[0:44] <ShiftPlusOne> thanks
[0:53] <ukscone> i wonder if the \\.\PhysicalDrive? thing would work for using an sd card as the rootfs for qemu -- done it with real disk before but never tried with sd cards or usb drives
[0:53] <ukscone> if it did that would be supercool and pretty useful too
[0:54] <ShiftPlusOne> /dev/sdXX would.
[0:55] <ShiftPlusOne> should work on windows as well
[0:55] <ukscone> yup that's what the physicaldisk thing is
[0:55] <ShiftPlusOne> I know, I just don't know about Windows and its' permissions for such things
[0:55] <ShiftPlusOne> Anyway, I've already written all there is to know about using Windows for such things.
[0:56] <ukscone> just not sure if windows addresses sd cards and usb storage like that too as they are "removable"
[0:56] <ShiftPlusOne> it does
[0:56] <ukscone> the problem with sd card readers and virtual box is that most builtin ones don't work
[0:57] <ukscone> usb sd card readers normlly do but not the builtin ones especially not ones made by ricoh
[0:57] <ukscone> which is almost all hp's
[1:02] <ReggieUK> cirtual box is an ass with usb
[1:02] <ReggieUK> virtual box*
[1:04] <ShiftPlusOne> ReggieUK, how long ago have you used it for USB?
[1:05] <ReggieUK> now
[1:05] <ShiftPlusOne> VirtualBox is much more usable than it was a while ago. Better than VMWare, I'd say.
[1:06] <ReggieUK> It mainly has issues with the didj/explorer and usb gadget, g_ether being plugged in
[1:06] <ReggieUK> every so often I'll reboot the didj/explorer and it will just nail the vm
[1:07] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: it's still iffy on a windows host but then again windows is iffy as a os anyway
[1:08] <ukscone> not tried linux guest on linux host in a few years
[1:09] <ShiftPlusOne> with direct CPU virtualisation, it's great.
[1:10] <ShiftPlusOne> Just need them to develop proper, stable 3d hardware acceleration and I am set.
[1:10] <traeak> virtualbox is x86/amd64 only though from what i see
[1:10] <ShiftPlusOne> yup, it's used for virtualisation, not emulation
[1:11] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:12] <ukscone> of course virtualbox is based on qemu :)
[1:13] <ukscone> i've had vb running qemu runing windows running qemu running linux running xtrs which is fun
[1:14] <ukscone> but it was on a day i forgot to take my meds so that would probably explain it
[1:15] <ShiftPlusOne> I think that's the sort of thing that any rational person would do after learning about emulation and virtualization.
[1:16] <ukscone> it actually isn't too bad xtrs ran at about the real speed of a model 3
[1:17] <ukscone> i normally won't go deeper than 3 layers of emulation though
[1:18] <DaQatz> Tomorrow I will make soup with the mushrooms I picked.
[1:18] <ukscone> vb hosting linux hosting mame or mess or z80pack (or another emulator)
[1:18] <ukscone> DaQatz: sure they are mushrooms?
[1:18] <DaQatz> Yes
[1:18] <ukscone> ok send me some then i like mushroom soup
[1:19] <DaQatz> Giant puffball mushrooms
[1:19] <DaQatz> Very tasty.
[1:19] <ukscone> have to have some nice crusty bread and real butter to go with it
[1:20] <DaQatz> Hmm sadly someone killed my wild sourdough starter.
[1:20] <DaQatz> Else I could make a good sourdough loaf.
[1:21] <ukscone> ooooo sourdough i love that especially with clam chowder and lots of salted butter on the bread
[1:28] * gomiboy (~frodone@ppp-41-18.21-151.libero.it) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[1:38] <ShiftPlusOne> what are some useful linux filesystems? ext2, squashfs, cpio...?
[1:39] <ShiftPlusOne> (for qemu... ext3 and such are pointless)
[1:40] <ukscone> cpio because that's normally appended to the kernel for the initramfs and ext2
[1:40] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, I've mentioned cpio, I mean which other ones
[1:42] <ukscone> thats welly all i ever use except fat
[1:43] <traeak> cpio ?
[1:43] <ShiftPlusOne> ok, thank you
[1:43] <ukscone> really even
[1:43] <ReggieUK> ubifs
[1:43] <ReggieUK> jffs2
[1:43] <ukscone> not really much use on sd cards
[1:43] <ukscone> again really not that much use on sd cards
[1:43] <DaQatz> cpio is pretty much for initfs
[1:43] <traeak> interesting nilfs didn't get much traction
[1:43] <ReggieUK> oh yeah, dang, forgot about the no nand pi
[1:43] <ShiftPlusOne> I was thinking of UnionFS, which would be very handy, but it looks unmaintained now.
[1:44] <ReggieUK> what's fuse?
[1:44] <DaQatz> ShiftPlusOne, try AUFS
[1:44] <ShiftPlusOne> DaQatz, that actually says it's unmaintained on the homepage
[1:44] <DaQatz> Heh
[1:44] <ukscone> but of course you might want other fs as you might plug in a harddisk to the r-pi
[1:44] <DaQatz> What happened to all the union file systems?
[1:45] <traeak> another one came out
[1:45] <traeak> can't remmeber the name of the newest one
[1:46] <ukscone> dominos mediterain veeggie sandwich is really good
[1:47] <DaQatz> AUFS site says it's still active
[1:48] <DaQatz> vers 2.1 and lower aren't supported
[1:48] <DaQatz> but 2.2 and 3+ are
[1:48] <ShiftPlusOne> DaQatz, yeah, follow some of the tutorial links, they're down. It says it's maintained, but I think it's not unmaintained that they forgot to mention it.
[1:48] <ShiftPlusOne> *so, no not.
[1:48] <ShiftPlusOne> *not
[1:49] <ShiftPlusOne> ok, awful typing means I need to go sleep soon.
[1:51] <ShiftPlusOne> (I am sure it works fine and everything, I just don't trust sites with so many dead links)
[1:52] <DaQatz> http://aufs.sourceforge.net/
[1:52] <DaQatz> Dead links?
[1:53] <ShiftPlusOne> hmm, I must be confused, the dead links are on the unionfs website.
[1:54] <ShiftPlusOne> will have to look into aufs
[2:01] <ShiftPlusOne> Ok, it has happened... there are too many forum posts for me to keep up with.
[2:02] <DaQatz> That's good for the pi though
[2:04] <ShiftPlusOne> I don't see how me reading or not reading the forum posts affects the pi!
[2:04] <ShiftPlusOne> (yeah, I know what you meant)
[2:05] <ShiftPlusOne> We'll probably need a raspberrypi-dev channel eventually as well.
[2:06] <DaQatz> Yeah I see tis empty
[2:07] <ukscone> yup that's what we did with the zipit -- a general/help channel and a devs channel -- works well
[2:07] <ShiftPlusOne> is the zipit community still active?
[2:08] <DaQatz> I should reg it so trolls won't
[2:08] <ukscone> yup
[2:08] <ShiftPlusOne> Ok, so I'll have people to annoy about it when I get it.
[2:08] <ukscone> not as much as 5 months ago but yes we just ported dd-wrt to it
[2:08] <ukscone> well not we but a user did
[2:09] <ShiftPlusOne> do you still use it?
[2:09] <ukscone> dd-wrt might be a good non-debian distro for the raspberry pi -- it works well on the nanonote and so far it's pretty good on the zipit and it runs well in low mem situations
[2:10] <ukscone> it? the zipit? yes i still have a client who uses over 300 of them
[2:10] <ShiftPlusOne> do you work for the company or something?
[2:10] <ukscone> i have to migrate him from iz2s/ez2s to a u-booted rootfs
[2:11] <ukscone> nope i did help them with some other hardware and s/w and was under an nda but i didn't work for them
[2:11] <ShiftPlusOne> ok, sounds confusing.
[2:12] <ukscone> basically they asked me questions about subjects in my field of expertise and i gave them answers
[2:12] <ShiftPlusOne> so you were an unpaid consultant?
[2:12] <ukscone> paid in kind
[2:12] <ShiftPlusOne> ok
[2:13] <ukscone> that is why i still have alot of zipits in the other room :)
[2:14] <ShiftPlusOne> I am just worried I won't find any practical uses for them.
[2:15] <DaQatz> There reg'ed #raspberrypi-dev So no worry of trolls getting it.
[2:15] <ShiftPlusOne> Unless you turn troll.
[2:15] <ukscone> you just wantd op status :)
[2:16] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: well it's a nice little box for sshing into stuff and ppl have mad eit into robots and stuff
[2:16] <DaQatz> ukscone, I have ops in many chans on various networks.
[2:16] <DaQatz> Evem IRCops
[2:16] <ShiftPlusOne> DaQatz, you've registered many channels then?
[2:16] <DaQatz> Lol
[2:18] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, also, I haven't really looked into the device much, does it have just wifi or GSM as well?
[2:19] <ukscone> just wifi
[2:20] <ukscone> b/g
[2:20] <ukscone> http://www.junklet.net/html/make_page.php?n=zipitbot that might be a fun project for you
[2:21] <ShiftPlusOne> thanks
[2:22] <DaQatz> Pi should be pretty handy for robotics.
[2:23] <ukscone> ShiftPlusOne: how many did you end up ordering?
[2:23] <ShiftPlusOne> 5, I think
[2:23] <ukscone> ok so 3 bots to chase cats with and 2 for spares
[2:24] <ShiftPlusOne> Damn wiki... I can't make up my mind whether to use "we", "you" or be neutral, so I keep changing throughout. When teaching people to do things I tend to say "we", especially when people are intimidated by the subject. I find 'you' kind of rude, and neutral complicates the grammar (which I suck at anyway).
[2:26] <ReggieUK> I tend to use we so the reader doesn't feel alone
[2:26] <ReggieUK> actually, that's probably a lie, I more than likely interchange between you/we
[2:26] <ReggieUK> deal with it :D
[2:26] * ReggieUK goes to check a tutorial he wrote
[2:31] <ukscone> http://www.explosm.net/comics/2534/ lol
[2:36] [DaQatz VERSION]
[2:57] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
[3:00] <ShiftPlusOne> do you need to be root to mount an ext2-formatted disk image to a directory?
[3:01] <ShiftPlusOne> nvrm, seems so.
[3:13] <ukscone> yup at least on ubntu/debian
[3:13] <ukscone> oh nm didn't see the next linee
[3:40] <ReggieUK> How is the audio handled on the raspi?
[3:42] <ShiftPlusOne> binary blob, I think. Liz said all multimedia is handled that way.
[3:44] <ReggieUK> I notice it says i2s in the FAQ/spec but nothing on what codec it will be using
[3:45] <ShiftPlusOne> codec?
[3:45] <ShiftPlusOne> *I2C?
[3:45] <ReggieUK> or if it's internal, which drivers it will be using, alsa/oss/something else
[3:45] <ReggieUK> i2s != i2c
[3:45] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah, I was just wondering if you misread, guess not.
[3:45] <ReggieUK> ahh :)
[3:49] <ReggieUK> didj/explorer use i2s from the lf1000 chip going to a cirrus logic CS43L22 codec chip
[3:49] <ukscone> without linux i expect it'll be something similar to this http://linux.zipitwireless.com/projects/z2kernel/wiki/WikiStart#AudioRegisterSetup
[3:50] <ukscone> oooo better make note to myself to build i2ctools for armv6 sometime
[3:51] <ReggieUK> leapfrog use a big fat script to setup the audio
[3:51] <ReggieUK> they only do it once per boot and never mess with it
[3:51] <ShiftPlusOne> that sounds awful
[3:51] <ReggieUK> everything they do is at 32000Hz
[3:51] <ReggieUK> it's got better
[3:51] <ReggieUK> we at least have an alsa driver now
[3:52] <ReggieUK> although it's had issues
[3:52] <ReggieUK> like they didn't work properly when leapfrog released them
[3:52] <ReggieUK> anything that changed the samplerate, seg faulted
[3:53] <ReggieUK> got that sorted but it still bugs out but at least makes a noise now :D
[3:54] <ShiftPlusOne> noise is good
[3:54] <ReggieUK> are there any spare gpio on the zipit?
[3:55] <ReggieUK> I got mpg123 to work on it without issue
[3:55] <ReggieUK> didj/explorer that is
[3:57] <ukscone> yes a few and because it's a pxa you can reassign some from their proper use to what you want them to be used for
[4:03] <ReggieUK> :)
[4:17] <ShiftPlusOne> echo "test" | gzip > test.gz; zcat test.gz; rm test.gz;
[4:17] <ShiftPlusOne> ignore that
[4:40] <ShiftPlusOne> FUUUUUU....inally
[4:40] <ShiftPlusOne> http://raspi.springnote.com/pages/8235930
[4:45] <ShiftPlusOne> *updated to fix some formatting errors*
[4:48] <ukscone> nice
[4:56] <ShiftPlusOne> *more formatting fixes*
[5:47] <ukscone> nah i think i'll bite my tongue on the r-pi forum -- wish the forum had an iggy button though
[5:56] <ShiftPlusOne> iggy?
[5:56] <ukscone> iggy == ignore
[5:57] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, what happened now?
[5:57] <ukscone> there are about 3 trolls and 1 moron (other than myself) that i'd prefer not to see anything from
[5:57] <ShiftPlusOne> got it
[5:58] <ukscone> i think it's probablly just me but some people really get my goat especially when it comes to the "arguement" about swap on flash memory
[5:59] <ShiftPlusOne> I can see what you mean.
[6:00] <ukscone> for some reason especially when people try to use math to prove their point that really makes me want to smash their head through a plate glass window :)
[6:00] <ShiftPlusOne> the exact post I was reading
[6:00] <ukscone> yes he is right about the math in theory but he's forgetting tht writing a single bit uses a whole block for a start
[6:02] <ShiftPlusOne> I've stopped following that thread a while back, it's kind of moot.
[6:02] <ukscone> and i don't care about the theoretical math as i have 3 to 4 years and a stack of 300plus sd cards as proof of my "facts" :)
[6:03] <ukscone> yeah it is a bit moot
[6:03] <ShiftPlusOne> Why get so heated up about it? If they want to use sd cards for swap, let them.
[6:03] <ukscone> i know i get into this arguement at leeast 3 times a year
[6:03] <ukscone> it's not that i care except they try to prove that i am wrong :)
[6:04] <ukscone> if you want to do it then do it otherwise don't but it's the way people who say it's ok try to always prove it with theoretical math when i'm sitting in front of the facts
[6:04] <ShiftPlusOne> take a photo of the cards
[6:05] <ukscone> i'll have to find a camera with a working sd card hehehehehheheheh :)
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[6:47] <ShiftPlusOne> Found a few more important kernel config options which aren't enabled by versatile_defconfig.... will update once I track them all down and test them.
[6:49] <ukscone> well i wouldn;t spend too much time faffing around with thee kerneel until you have the hardware
[6:49] <ukscone> something that boots and has the standard modules eenabled should be good eenough for now
[6:49] <ShiftPlusOne> for emulation, I'd like to have things like sound and USB working, then it's possible to test USB support for various devices
[6:50] <ukscone> well usb should be ok but sound won't be correect anyway so any old thing will do
[6:52] <ShiftPlusOne> well no, since qemu only emulates the 'PL181 MultiMedia Card', so sound doesn't work with anything else.
[6:53] <ukscone> i wonder if you asked nicely they;d let you have a copy of the .config for the kernel they aree using?
[6:53] <ukscone> nothing propritory about that
[6:54] <ShiftPlusOne> someone has already asked, Liz said she'll get it from someone, but I don't think that got lost in the things to do
[6:55] <ShiftPlusOne> either way, obviously there will be a lot of different settings, the point is to get the correct qemu settings so that software can be tested. I don't care so much about the 'real' hardware other than the CPU.
[6:59] <ukscone> that's my point -- you can't test sound as who knows how it works so you just have to use what's available in qemu
[6:59] <ukscone> you can't test graphics because who knows how the kernel will talk to the blob
[6:59] <ukscone> so just use whatever
[7:00] <ukscone> usb is sort of generic enough that you can test
[7:00] <ShiftPlusOne> well that's the problem, you can't just use whatever
[7:00] <ukscone> yes you can
[7:00] <ShiftPlusOne> qemu only emulates 1 of each
[7:00] <ShiftPlusOne> you've got sound working in qemu-system-arm?
[7:00] <ukscone> never not had it working
[7:00] <ShiftPlusOne> manually compiled kernel?
[7:01] <ukscone> it just works if you have the right libs and sound working on your system
[7:01] <ShiftPlusOne> you're 100% sure you're talking about ARM and the default versatile defconfig settings?
[7:02] <ukscone> i don't use versitile because i use z2 but same diff
[7:02] <ukscone> as z2 is based on versitile
[7:02] <ShiftPlusOne> no, not same diff.
[7:02] <ukscone> it's good enough
[7:02] <ukscone> don't worry about the details the details will follow later
[7:03] <ukscone> you can't know the details so you get soemthign that works and then work from that
[7:03] <ShiftPlusOne> I don't think you're following me
[7:03] <ukscone> yes i am -- you want to build and test s/w
[7:03] <ShiftPlusOne> and why am I so concerned about sound?
[7:03] <ukscone> well you can do that all you want until you have the device in hand you won't know if your assumptions were right
[7:04] <ShiftPlusOne> again, I don't care about the actual device for now.
[7:04] <ukscone> neither do i
[7:04] <ukscone> as long as i get a display and something that resembles a workign kernel and some sort of sound out put it'll do for checking there are no major problems porting stuff
[7:05] <ukscone> the problamatic bits will be the multimedia stuff which we can't test correctly anyway
[7:05] <ukscone> so why bother sweating it
[7:05] <ShiftPlusOne> yes, an qemu only emulates one chip... if you enable 50 sound devices in the kernel to just 'use whatever' and miss that 1 device that it actually emulates, it won't work.
[7:05] <ukscone> as long as qemu makes a beep and displays a pixel it's good enough for now
[7:06] <ShiftPlusOne> yes, and qemu doesn't make a beep
[7:06] <ukscone> compile qemu with the sound stuff enabled and it pretends to be the sound chip it does and passes it to the sound lib that your system is using
[7:06] <ShiftPlusOne> and it just so happens that versatile_defconfig skips that one device, which is PL181.
[7:07] <ukscone> then don't use versitile defconfig write your own machine definition
[7:07] <ukscone> use versitile def config as you base and modify it
[7:07] <ShiftPlusOne> now you're getting it
[7:07] <ukscone> that's what the zipit people did
[7:09] <ukscone> i always got it it's just in the grnd scheme of things for 90% of the s/w people will want to check can be ported or will start to port the actual machine emulation doesn't matter it's the processor emulation that is the big thing. everything else will come in time
[7:09] <ShiftPlusOne> sure, no disagreement there.
[7:10] <ukscone> porting lua -- sound doesn't matter neither do graphics as such
[7:10] <ukscone> porting perl -- again sound doesn't matter
[7:10] <ShiftPlusOne> playing doom 'cause I am bored -- need sound
[7:11] <ukscone> well i never play doom with sound
[7:11] <ukscone> i don't thnk they had sound on that quake demo -- did they?
[7:11] <ShiftPlusOne> I think they did
[7:11] <ShiftPlusOne> I don't recall thinking "hey, where's the sound!?"
[7:12] <ukscone> i don't remember thinking " oh theres sound"
[7:12] <ukscone> checking
[7:12] <ShiftPlusOne> ok no sound, but I don't see speakers either
[7:13] <ukscone> yup i was checking too
[7:13] <ukscone> nope nothing that i immediatly recognise as speakers
[7:14] <ukscone> but isn't audio part of the hdmi spec so the monitor shoudl be doing sound
[7:14] <ukscone> if they have sound
[7:15] <ukscone> it's a samsung lcd so that's a tv isn't it i don't think samsung make monitors (do they?)
[7:18] <ShiftPlusOne> http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/pc-peripherals/monitor/index.idx?pagetype=type_p2&
[7:18] <ShiftPlusOne> plenty
[7:18] <ukscone> i haven't bought a monitor in over 20 years so i don' know who makes what these days
[7:20] <ShiftPlusOne> pretty much everyone makes everything
[7:20] <ShiftPlusOne> or get it from the same factory in China anyway
[8:32] <ahven> samsung makes everything :P
[8:32] <ahven> morning
[8:33] <ahven> ah, you already said that :)
[8:43] <ahven> debian inside debian it is :)
[8:43] <DaQatz> Yo dog, I heard you like debian
[8:44] <ahven> I don't remember now if linux has pathname length limits
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[9:20] <jzu> it depends on the filesystem you use
[9:21] <jzu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems#Limits
[9:25] <ahven> ext4 has none :)
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[11:14] <ahven> ShiftPlusOne: btw, what did you choose as the serial port in buildroot?
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[13:23] <ReggieUK> g'morning
[13:27] <sueaarggg> morning
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[14:57] <ukscone> morning all
[14:57] <IT_Sean> good morning ukscone
[14:58] <ukscone> ugh start of 6 days of hell -- wife is on vacation :(
[14:58] * IT_Sean walks over to the server rack and pokes Larry with a hammer
[14:58] <IT_Sean> the can't be that bad?
[14:58] <ukscone> want to bet
[14:59] <ukscone> she's annoying and i can't work when she's home as she's always talking at me
[14:59] <ukscone> 6 days of QVC, BigBrother and rubbish tv shows on the tv
[14:59] <ukscone> thank god for bittorrent and uk tv trackers
[14:59] <IT_Sean> THERE YOU GO!
[14:59] <IT_Sean> (i was just about to suggest you torrent some good television)
[15:00] <ReggieUK> morizon did a good one last night
[15:00] <ReggieUK> core
[15:00] <ReggieUK> horizon*
[15:00] <ReggieUK> about what goes on in the centre of the earth
[15:00] * IT_Sean is still trying to get radius authetication working on this dammed switch
[15:01] <ReggieUK> and how our magnetic field flips over different parts of the plaent
[15:01] <ReggieUK> planet*
[15:01] <IT_Sean> Doe the earth have a soft nuget middle?
[15:01] <IT_Sean> *does
[15:01] <ReggieUK> metal crystals apparently
[15:01] <ReggieUK> that all point north
[15:02] <IT_Sean> How do they know which way is north? :p
[15:02] <ReggieUK> hehe, it's a bit like the bible, they sat down and decided it would be so
[15:03] <ReggieUK> magnetic north wanders
[15:04] <IT_Sean> Does it pop down to the pub every day ,around 4ish? Or is that just all the support people in our UK office? :p
[15:04] <sueaarggg> so its more like gipsy voodoo than christianity?
[15:04] <ReggieUK> then again, so does everything, tectonic plates aren't static
[15:04] <ReggieUK> ZOMG, I HAS NO IDEA WHERE I AM ANYMORE
[15:05] <IT_Sean> WARNING: Use of tectonic plates in your microwave oven may cause damage not covered by the mfgr warrenty.
[15:05] <sueaarggg> ReggieUK: just read your nick
[15:05] <ReggieUK> that's just where I'm from not where I'm at
[15:05] <IT_Sean> Where are you at?
[15:05] <ReggieUK> england
[15:05] <sueaarggg> Noooo, now my reality crashed and burned!
[15:06] <IT_Sean> ??????
[15:06] <ReggieUK> bbiab
[15:07] * IT_Sean power-cycles Larry
[15:08] <IT_Sean> (i should clarify... Larry is one of our test switches... the other two are Moe, and Curly)
[15:11] <IT_Sean> I think cisco go out of their way ot intentionally make configuring their equipment a pain in the arse so the can charge laods of money to train people to do it properly.
[15:12] <ukscone> IT_Sean: you only just realised that
[15:12] <IT_Sean> No, i've known it for a long time
[15:12] * sueaarggg (d47b018c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.123.1.140) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[15:14] <IT_Sean> It's just that it has really started to irritate me lately
[15:15] <ukscone> IT_Sean: go shoestring on the switch
[15:16] <IT_Sean> wha?
[15:16] <ukscone> sorry you are probably too young to know who showstring was
[15:17] <IT_Sean> Possibly.
[15:17] <IT_Sean> If you meant for me to murder it, i can't
[15:17] <ukscone> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoestring_(TV_series)
[15:17] <IT_Sean> We have a company policy that forbids violence towards company owned equipment, until it has been officialy EOL'd
[15:17] <ukscone> the wiki doesn't mention it but he took a fire axe to the computers
[15:17] <IT_Sean> and we /JUST/ got these, so....
[15:18] <IT_Sean> We ususally go with the good old deer slug to the motherboard method
[15:18] <IT_Sean> (you probably thought i was joking about the company shotgun, didn't you?)
[15:19] <ukscone> no we had a company sledgehammer at one company i worked at
[15:19] <IT_Sean> niice
[15:19] <ukscone> came in useful when trying to lay cable or move things
[15:19] <ukscone> anmd even more use when the traders on the trading floor asked you to do anything
[15:20] <ukscone> just wander in with the sledgehammer over your sholder and they soon decided it wasn't worth it
[15:21] <ukscone> "oh the key is stuck. hold on a sec" as you lift the hammer off your sholder and prepare to swing
[15:21] <IT_Sean> I'll have to try that the next time i get a call to the production floor to deal with a computer issue. Just walk in with a large hammer
[15:22] <ukscone> we actually needed it to free stuck arms on one of the printing machines. a quick tap in just the right place would free it
[15:23] <ukscone> otherwise it was a 3 hour job to dismantle and put back together
[15:27] <IT_Sean> ouch
[15:28] <ukscone> if you really tried hard you could mske the dismantling take 6 hours until the pubs opened
[15:29] <IT_Sean> If you stopped to photograph each step for reassembly reference, you could probably stretch that to 7 or 8 hours.
[15:30] <ukscone> yes but then i'd miss my train home
[15:30] <ukscone> i had a 109.37mile commute
[15:30] <IT_Sean> oooouch
[15:30] <IT_Sean> how long did that take?
[15:31] <ukscone> 5 miles by bus from my home to the train station train to kings cross then tube to covent garden
[15:31] <IT_Sean> my commute is about 30 minutes, by car.
[15:31] <ukscone> up by 5am to get to the train by 6:30 am on the 7 or 7:30 tran to be at my desk by 9:30am
[15:32] <ukscone> then leave around 6ish to be on the 7pm or 7:30pm train back home in bed by 10 to 11pm
[15:32] <IT_Sean> (although, with all the road closures from Irene, it's taken a lot longer these past few days)
[15:32] <ukscone> i was the longest serving employee in my dept. i lasted 9 months
[15:34] <ukscone> none of us in thee 5 man dept had less than a 50 mile commute and it was 5 of us to support 30,000 pc's in thee uk and 150,000 in europe, middle east and africa
[15:34] <IT_Sean> That sounds rough.
[15:35] <IT_Sean> I support a propritary encrypted communications device, used worldwide. I am the sole support tech in this office.
[15:38] <ukscone> we both must have done something terrible in a previous life for karma to punish us so -- i had to support merchant bankers and stock market traders and the rhyming slang is correct for merchant bankers
[15:38] <IT_Sean> It's actually not that bad. Our device is pretty foolproof once it's up and running.
[15:38] <ukscone> you were probably jack the ripper or something
[15:39] <Thorn_> gee
[15:39] <Thorn_> i'm absolutely knackered
[15:39] <IT_Sean> Most of my time is spent testing new versions of the software, and dealing with device RMAs. I occasionally have to handhold someone through an initial setup.
[15:39] <ukscone> yeah i've been up for two hours already. time for a nap i think
[15:39] <Thorn_> nothing like realising at 5am that you have to get up for work at 6am as your brain seems to be on the wrong day
[15:40] <Thorn_> went to bed and ended up getting back up and doing crap all for the entire day
[15:42] <IT_Sean> I've been getting up at 5 to be able to get to work on time (as the roads, as i said, are all screwed up), but, it is starting to catch up with me, i think.
[15:45] <IT_Sean> I may sleep late (i.e. get up at my normal time) tomorrow. If i get stuck in traffic, so be it. It's the friday before a long weekend anyway
[15:46] * IT_Sean caffinates himself with a cup of tea
[15:53] <ukscone> pity the formfactor of the r-pi is no nger usb stick sized. just had a look at the space inside a targus usb2 port replicator -- that form factor would have fit really well inside
[15:54] <ukscone> so the whole thing would have been about 6" x 3" x 1.5" with serial, ethernet, printer , keyboard port, mouse port and 2 usb slots
[15:54] <IT_Sean> they did say all along it wouldn't be USB stick sized, though, didn't they?
[15:55] <IT_Sean> Still lots of places you could "hide" one
[15:55] <ukscone> not inside the port replicator but i have a small box it will fit in that can be velcro's to the port replicator
[15:56] <ukscone> not the first posts were usb stick sized (in april/may) iirc but they did say credit card size when they really started ramping up
[15:56] <IT_Sean> I cant help but think that one of these, attached to the VESA mounts on an LCD, laoded with presentation software would be great to have @ trade shows
[15:56] <ukscone> IT_Sean: yes i sent a friend who runs trade shows to the site
[15:57] <ukscone> he is really interested
[15:57] <IT_Sean> Once i get my hands on one (or two) i might suggest that to The Boss, since we do do trade shows
[15:57] <ukscone> if i wangle it right he might pay for my bunch of raspi's
[15:58] <IT_Sean> The Boss won't like the not-Windows-ness of it, but...
[15:58] <ukscone> the lack of onboard wifi is a teeny bit of a downer but if it keeps the price down then it can be dealt with
[15:58] <IT_Sean> USB WiFi adapter.
[15:58] <ukscone> IT_Sean: mod a wm theme to be all windowy he'll never know the difference
[15:58] <IT_Sean> Yes, he would.
[15:58] <IT_Sean> He is very anti-linux. Not entirely sure why.
[16:00] <ukscone> bitten by a penguin as a kid?
[16:00] <IT_Sean> possibly.
[16:00] <IT_Sean> He is the outdoors-ey type.
[16:01] <IT_Sean> urrrgh... Thing. not. working.
[16:01] <ukscone> IT_Sean: the lack of onboard wifi is actually a blessing in the long run anyway as he is using at least 300 wifi devices in most of the exhibition halls as it is
[16:01] <ukscone> and even with multiple routers it's a pig when 300 devices all decide to associate with an ap at the samee time
[16:02] <IT_Sean> right
[16:02] <IT_Sean> I'm not entirely sure what i'll use an r pi for, but, i do know i want one. To tinker with, at the very least.
[16:02] <ukscone> and let me just say one thing -- he is using consumer routes not industrial grade :)
[16:02] * IT_Sean shudders
[16:03] <ukscone> i'm actually leaning towards having 4 of the model a's and 2 or 3 of the b's to start with as i have uses for the model a's straight away the b's will be nice but the a's are more suitable for what i want
[16:03] <ukscone> at least he did install dd-wrt on them
[16:03] <IT_Sean> If they do manage to keep the price in the ~$30 range, i plan to pick up at least one, possibly 2, model Bs
[16:05] <ukscone> i can't know until i have one in my hands but the targus port replicator is supported complely in linux so although it's moree expensive than the price difference between an a and b it gives me more
[16:05] <IT_Sean> One of those, combined with a touchscreen LCD (plus drivers, which would be the tricky bit) would make for a great trade-show kiosk and/or network information display here in the office
[16:05] <ukscone> there are lots of things they can be used for but i hope people who are buying them to tinker with don't forget the aims of the foundation
[16:05] <IT_Sean> Of course.
[16:06] <ukscone> they are nice for us to have but that's not what the foundation wants
[16:06] <IT_Sean> I plan to di at least one buy one / give one. I am totally for the foundations goals.
[16:06] <IT_Sean> *do
[16:08] <ukscone> me too if i can loosen the household purse from the current holder of said purse
[16:08] <IT_Sean> Got to run it past the accounting department, aye?
[16:09] <ukscone> i just see alot of people on the forum forgetting the aims
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[16:16] * IT_Sean wanders off to go run a telco line
[16:21] <ukscone> datagutt: any chance your logging bot could go into #raspberrypi-dev? DaQatz created the chan last night but we have no logging bot in there yet
[16:21] <datagutt> Hmm
[16:21] <datagutt> not quite sure if this supports 2 channels
[16:21] <ukscone> ok
[16:21] <datagutt> but meh, it gotta do that
[16:21] <ukscone> i would have thought it would but what do i know
[16:22] <ukscone> maybe a channellist in its config
[16:24] -sendak.freenode.net- *** Looking up your hostname...
[16:24] -sendak.freenode.net- *** Checking Ident
[16:24] -sendak.freenode.net- *** No Ident response
[16:24] -sendak.freenode.net- *** Found your hostname
[16:24] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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[16:24] * Topic is 'currently "unofficial" discussion channel for the RaspberryPi http://www.raspberrypi.org/ the $25 computer -- FAQs: http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=8 -- Wiki & Specs: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard -- logs available at http://srv.datagutt1.com/'
[16:24] * Set by ukscone!~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com on Sun Aug 28 17:07:01 CEST 2011
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[16:24] * Topic is 'Unofficial Raspberrypi Dev channel.'
[16:24] * Set by DaQatz!~DB@2001:55c:1822:86bf:bad:1dea:feed:face on Thu Sep 01 02:11:58 CEST 2011
[16:24] -NickServ- You are now identified for DataBot.
[16:24] <datagutt> blablabla test
[16:24] <ukscone> so you can tell ppl to search the logs for standard repeat questuions and for info people might discover so we don't lose it
[16:24] <datagutt> test
[16:24] <datagutt> nah doesnt work
[16:24] <ukscone> hi rpibot
[16:24] <datagutt> http://srv.datagutt1.com/index.php?date=2011-09-01
[16:24] <ukscone> oh well
[16:24] <datagutt> only logs 1 channel
[16:25] <datagutt> this thing only logs 1 channel
[16:25] <datagutt> so yeah
[16:25] <ukscone> it isn't that important yet but eventually but by then liz will have set up their server for logging
[16:26] -hubbard.freenode.net- *** Looking up your hostname...
[16:26] -hubbard.freenode.net- *** Checking Ident
[16:26] -hubbard.freenode.net- *** No Ident response
[16:26] -hubbard.freenode.net- *** Found your hostname
[16:26] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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[16:26] * Topic is 'currently "unofficial" discussion channel for the RaspberryPi http://www.raspberrypi.org/ the $25 computer -- FAQs: http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=8 -- Wiki & Specs: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard -- logs available at http://srv.datagutt1.com/'
[16:26] * Set by ukscone!~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com on Sun Aug 28 17:07:01 CEST 2011
[16:26] -NickServ- You are now identified for DataBot.
[16:27] <ukscone> ugh that tastes foul :(
[16:27] <ukscone> need to go to the dentist and get some antibiotics yuk
[16:28] <ukscone> i had an abcess and it just burst -- yuk yuk yuk with a capital yuk
[16:28] <ctyler> ukscone: Just curious about which communities those are. Fedora/Mozilla/tos.o/webwork/libvirt etc. where I generally hang out only log meetings (intentionally).
[16:29] <ukscone> zipit, ubertooth, pentoo.......
[16:30] <ukscone> the ones where hsckers are discovering thing all the time about the device or s/w
[16:30] <ukscone> where any info is good info and you don't want ppl to have to rediscover it
[16:31] <ctyler> that does happen in e.g. #fedora-arm all the time too :-) I've heard arguments both ways, was just curious about which communities went the other direction
[16:31] <ukscone> if you look at your list of channels you'll notice they are all big not really community driven ones
[16:32] <ukscone> (i don't mean that as a bad thing but they are all mostly consist of a core of devs plus others) mine are all ones that are completly community driven with no hierarchy
[16:34] <ukscone> i'm not saying not logging is a bad thing either as most ppl keep their own logs anyway but in dev channels at least better to have logs and not need then rather than not have logs and need them
[16:38] * ctyler is fascinated by your characterization of communities. Many of the channels I'm in have (/me looks) 14, 19. 27, 32, 34, 58 users. One of the largest has 315, but that's in a community of 1200 active packagers, so I don't see the core+edge distinction there.
[16:39] <ukscone> i'm not being disparaging
[16:40] <ShiftPlusOne> ahven, ttyS0, I believe... or maybe just tty0
[16:40] <ShiftPlusOne> 'morning
[16:40] <ukscone> by community i mean that in the channels i am in all are equal. there is no -ocracy at all
[16:40] <ukscone> heck in most of the chans there isn't even anyone able to go op
[16:41] <ctyler> ukscone: no, I understand that you're not disparaging, just intrigued by perceptions that exist
[16:41] <ukscone> in mozilla, debian, fedora...... there are devs, leadeers..... and users and users aren't equal to devs
[16:43] <ukscone> for example in zipit and zipit-dev there isn't really a central distribution point for h/w and s/w anyone can post their stuff to anywhere they want
[16:43] <ukscone> in mozilla if i had a patch i'd have to send it to someone in core with commit privs and they'd have to review it in zipit-dev other than uboot patches and kernel patches that we want to get into mainline we can post anywhere
[16:45] <Thorn_> anyone here have experience with JTAG?
[16:46] <ctyler> Thorn_: some
[16:47] <Thorn_> http://opengemini.free.fr/wiki/lib/exe/detail.php?id=planex_mzk_nas&media=mzk-nas02sg_top.jpg can you tell me which one is the jtag on this board?
[16:47] <Thorn_> not sure whether it's the 4 pin at the top that he has plugged in (with only 3 pins, seems that's actually a serial interface)
[16:47] <Thorn_> or that large header next to the battery
[16:48] <ctyler> there is no standard Jtag connector, but 20-pin is not uncommon
[16:49] <ctyler> so my guess would be the 20-pin unpopulated header
[16:49] <Thorn_> weird
[16:49] <Thorn_> in this version of that board, that header itself doesnt exist
[16:49] <Thorn_> but there's a 10-pin in its place
[16:49] <ShiftPlusOne> ahven, you can always pass the kernel the console= parameter. if you make it console=ttyAMA0, that will route everything back to you terminal window.
[16:50] <ctyler> the Jtag interface actually requires 5 wires (plus ground)
[16:50] * IT_Sean is back
[16:51] <ctyler> TDI, TDO, TCK, TMS, (TRST optional), GND
[16:52] <Thorn_> hmm
[16:52] * Stskeeps (~cvm@Maemo/community/distmaster/Stskeeps) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:53] <ctyler> I have a TinCanTools flyswatter, and it starts with a 20pin header and then has adapters for all the wonky pinouts that various boards use
[16:54] <ukscone> can you read german? http://forum.nas-forum.org/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=439
[16:57] <Thorn_> great
[16:57] <Thorn_> the 4 pin serial interface is a dummy header on this board
[17:07] <ukscone> debricking or new firmware loading?
[17:09] <Thorn_> debricking
[17:09] <Thorn_> if i can debrick it... then it leads to new firmware loading :P
[17:53] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi
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[18:48] <ahven> hmm, the aboriginal image has a separate init, might have to whip up something like that too then
[18:50] <ShiftPlusOne> btw for ttyAMA0 to work you need to use -nographic
[18:53] <ahven> yay
[18:53] <ahven> that finally worked :)
[18:53] <ahven> ty
[18:53] <ahven> tried those combinations separately, but not together
[18:53] <ShiftPlusOne> no worries
[18:53] <ShiftPlusOne> and in buildroot I used tty0
[18:54] <ahven> the login wouldn't appear with tty0
[18:55] <ShiftPlusOne> works for me
[18:55] <ahven> trying again in a sec, maybe I didn't wait long enough
[18:56] <ShiftPlusOne> do you see any text at all?
[18:56] <ahven> with ttyAMA0 and nographic I don't see any kernel messages
[18:56] <ahven> but init appears
[18:56] <ahven> and can log in etc
[18:57] <ShiftPlusOne> which kernel are you using?
[18:57] <ahven> 3.0
[18:57] <ShiftPlusOne> aboriginal's or your own?
[18:57] <ahven> buildroot
[18:58] <ahven> with nographic I can see kernel messages
[18:58] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[18:58] <ShiftPlusOne> did you do make linux_menuconfig and add the other settings?
[18:59] <ShiftPlusOne> (the last question isn't relevant, just making sure)
[18:59] <ahven> made it apply the patch and use your .config
[18:59] <ahven> while building it
[18:59] <ShiftPlusOne> ah right... my .config may very well be messed up
[18:59] <ahven> oh
[18:59] <ahven> now it works
[18:59] <ahven> without nographic and with tty0
[19:00] * ahven scratches head
[19:00] <ShiftPlusOne> so what's the problem?
[19:00] <ahven> it wasn't bringing up the init loop in the end of the script execution
[19:00] <ahven> network etc
[19:01] <ShiftPlusOne> is it now?
[19:01] <ahven> yep
[19:01] <ShiftPlusOne> awesome
[19:02] <ahven> with the build-yourself-a-toolchain I saw the opportunity to select bash
[19:02] <ahven> but with the premade one I can't see one
[19:03] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[19:03] <ShiftPlusOne> what?
[19:03] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:05] <ukscone> ok found the best packing material for when they start shipping the raspi's http://russelldavis.org/Stuff/S1050447.JPG
[19:05] <ahven> hehe :D
[19:06] <ukscone> might be a bit sticky when it arrives though
[19:06] <ukscone> but it'll definatly not be damaged by the post office
[19:07] <traeak> hmm..looking at "slim binaries" i wonder why google didn't go for those instead of the java stuff
[19:07] <traeak> heh
[19:07] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, would you happen to have a good scratchbox tutorial?
[19:08] <ukscone> well i have MY tutorial which might or might not be good
[19:08] <traeak> although instead of loading slim binaries at run time i'd prefer to ship a compiler on each platform and finishing assembling an application as part of install
[19:09] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, is that easy to find on your blag?
[19:09] <ukscone> http://russelldavis.org/2010/10/20/setting-up-scratchbox2-to-build-software-for-zubuntu/
[19:09] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, thanks
[19:10] <ukscone> change all refences to zipit and z2buntu to other things and ubuntu name to whatever and it should be ok
[19:13] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[19:13] <ShiftPlusOne> ukscone, what's the best way to get a native glibc toolchain on arm?
[19:14] <ukscone> codesourcery or crosstool-NG
[19:15] <ShiftPlusOne> codesourcery have a native toolchain?
[19:15] <ukscone> codesourceery is the standard toolchain for non-built yourself
[19:15] <ukscone> oh you mean arm on arm
[19:15] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah
[19:15] <ukscone> ok then it's aboriginal
[19:15] <ShiftPlusOne> glibc
[19:15] <ukscone> should put one in the rootfs
[19:16] <ukscone> you then use it to build one or you could use crosstool-NG which builds most combos
[19:16] <ShiftPlusOne> ok, thanks.
[19:17] <ukscone> but most cross tool things don't build for glibc by default
[19:17] <ShiftPlusOne> doesn't cs?
[19:18] <ukscone> yes but thats the exception that proves the rule
[19:19] <ukscone> most arm devices are space constrained so not using glibc is a smart move just which of the other libs do you use?
[19:20] <ShiftPlusOne> I am not sure yet, just trying to avoid uclibc
[19:20] <ukscone> uClibc in theory is source compatable with glibc in practice less so. eglibc is supposed to be binary compatable but again practice it's less so and not many distros use it
[19:20] <traeak> what about google's version of libc ?
[19:20] <ukscone> think only debian/ubuntu use eglibc but i am probably wrong with that statement
[19:21] <ukscone> google is evil
[19:21] <ukscone> do they have one? dietlib or newlib?
[19:21] <traeak> but their code is freely usable
[19:21] <traeak> yes wait one
[19:21] <traeak> caveat: it *only* supports utf8
[19:21] <traeak> that's so eevil (actually it's awesome)
[19:21] <traeak> libc Bionic library
[19:22] <traeak> http://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2008/11/six-million-dollar-libc.html
[19:22] <traeak> a bit old of an article probably still applies
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[19:27] <ahven> argh, had ccache not installed in my chroot :P
[19:27] <traeak> anyways i would definitely push to at least evaluate bionic for use instead of full glibc for the rpi
[19:28] <traeak> the only problem is that it seems the whole android toolchain has to be downloaded to get bionic
[19:29] <traeak> crap they added wchar_t back into android :(
[19:30] <traeak> wrong, someone did their own android ndk and added that crap, okay time toshut up :-p
[19:32] <traeak> http://glandium.org/blog/?p=2146
[19:33] <ukscone> ok i pong time for a shower bbiab
[19:47] <ahven> http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43&mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=67.0
[19:48] <ahven> finally a nice topic to answer the primary questions
[19:48] <ahven> the FAQ was bit too limited for my taste, if I wanted to know in more detail
[19:49] <traeak> exactly
[19:49] <ahven> oh...August 4 :)
[19:49] <ahven> don't know how I missed it before
[20:03] * Zetetic (~root@unaffiliated/elench) Quit (Quit: Bye)
[20:04] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:10] <ahven> aha, no volume discounts, atleast that were Eben's words in the August 28th summit video
[20:11] <traeak> we're getting volume discounts
[20:11] <traeak> perhaps there's a volume discount for shipping but that's just rates i'm sure
[20:14] <ahven> "there isn't really a volume discount"
[20:14] <ahven> 10:40, http://www.raspberrypi.org/?p=112
[20:15] <traeak> ie: we're getting the best price we can get
[20:16] <mdavey> yup, its being sold at close to cost
[20:17] <ahven> best for the little consumer :)
[20:26] <Thorn_> gonna be pretty ready on the buy button tbh
[20:26] <ahven> oh yeah
[20:26] <Thorn_> i hope their not selling them from the server that rpi is currently running on
[20:26] <Thorn_> it wont handle the burst traffic :D
[20:26] <Thorn_> from that website, i mean
[20:30] <ahven> but rpi has thrown away my ideas android as a desktop replacement
[20:30] <ahven> stick a touchable screen and voila, do practically whatever you want
[20:31] <ShiftPlusOne> maybe because android is awful?
[20:31] <ahven> it's better than the s60 platform, atleast :)
[20:32] <ahven> atleast in terms of pocket mobile devices
[20:32] <ShiftPlusOne> depends on what you need
[20:32] <ShiftPlusOne> s60 isn't bad for a dumbish phone
[20:34] <ahven> e-mail, im, little web, some specific applications
[20:36] <ukscone> pity epoc/symbian are dead -- would have been interesting on the rpi
[20:36] <ShiftPlusOne> I hate it when software developers don't care about efficiency saying "it doesn't matter, (insert resource here) is so cheap" ok, that might work on the desktop, but don't use the same logic on mobile phones. "Android is bloated? No, you just don't have a dual core 2ghz CPU and 2gb of RAM in your phone, get with the times"
[20:37] <ShiftPlusOne> it's great for phone manufacturers I guess 'cause they can compete on specs
[20:37] <ahven> market is good for one thing - if the application is clearly not optimized at all, people will notice and write it down :P
[20:38] <ShiftPlusOne> people will notice and buy a new phone
[20:38] <ahven> hehe
[20:39] <ShiftPlusOne> Well, to be fair, I still think Android is by far the best phone OS out there right now... it's just far from what it should be.
[20:40] <ahven> it was worse a year ago, from the looks of the comments
[20:40] <ahven> in terms of usability
[20:41] <ShiftPlusOne> not so sure about that
[20:41] <ShiftPlusOne> I've still got my G1 =)
[20:41] <ShiftPlusOne> well yeah, the early version lacked features which you'd expect to have on any phone
[20:42] <ShiftPlusOne> for example, ability to set a wifi proxy was not there
[20:42] <ShiftPlusOne> you still can't record phone calls, I think
[20:42] <ShiftPlusOne> things like that... I don't remember all of them, I've learned to do without.
[20:44] <traeak> i wonder if android wouldn't have been better off coming up with a "slim binary" type idea, having a "slim binary -> machine code" compiler as part of the package installer process.
[20:45] <ShiftPlusOne> what's a slim binary anyway?
[20:45] <traeak> it's not a fat binary...
[20:46] <ShiftPlusOne> ah ok... had to wiki that one
[20:46] <traeak> from mac oberon ... it's basically something that's partially compiled ... and then compiled by the loader
[20:46] <traeak> seems to be lower level than what java provides
[20:46] <ukscone> like p-code?
[20:47] <traeak> okay that's a better term
[20:48] <traeak> although the slim binary concept mentioned that it doesn't rely on a stack machine
[20:48] <ShiftPlusOne> How come all the linux-based phone distros don't work out? I mean proper linux running X11. Any idea?
[20:49] <traeak> sorry i'm not super familiar with helping with cross architecture stuff, always worked with cross platform x86 specific
[20:49] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: the applications end up being crappy X11 ports which are poorly suited to touch screens
[20:51] <ShiftPlusOne> I guess that's they need an SDK and standards to follow
[20:51] <ShiftPlusOne> *that's why
[20:53] <traeak> yup, and if it needs a new sdk then why require using x11 ?
[20:55] <ShiftPlusOne> I am thinking something like GTK or Qt, but not either of those... something specific to mobile phones. X11 because it's a standard.
[20:55] <ukscone> bugger i hate setting up networking on qemu
[20:55] <ukscone> i never get it right until about the 15th try
[20:57] <ShiftPlusOne> argh... I have it when reporters say "It begs the question... why?" I don't think anything annoys me as much as misuse of begging the question.
[20:57] <ShiftPlusOne> (sorry, heard it just then)
[20:58] <Thorn_> yeah why do reporters do that
[20:58] <Thorn_> It just begs the question... why?
[20:58] <ReggieUK> supplanting of memes
[20:58] <ReggieUK> if I seem concerned about bugger perhaps everyone watching will
[20:58] <ReggieUK> about bugger all*
[20:59] <ShiftPlusOne> Thorn_, yeah I knew that was coming.. it only annoys me when people do it unintentionally.
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[21:10] <ReggieUK> anyone know much about eMMC?
[21:11] <ukscone> embedded sd card in a device such as a nookcolour
[21:11] <ReggieUK> from what I can gather it's an mmc controller and a nand chip
[21:11] <ukscone> it's basically an sd card
[21:11] <ReggieUK> that's definitely what it is on the new leapfrog tablet unit
[21:12] <ukscone> just it might not be a removable sd card
[21:12] <ReggieUK> emmc controller + nand
[21:12] <ReggieUK> which is the essential components of an sd card too
[21:12] <ukscone> yup
[21:13] <ukscone> all the nand tools in busybox should work on it (if you have built busybox with the correct kernel headers and stuff
[21:13] <ukscone> well mtd tools as some aren't exactly for nand
[21:13] <ReggieUK> I wish they'd give us a pinout of some kind for the raspi chip
[21:14] <ReggieUK> oh sure, as far as the system is concerned on teh tablet, it's an SD card
[21:14] <ReggieUK> oh actually, you saying that, I'm not sure that they do work on it
[21:15] <ReggieUK> as the emmc controller makes the nand appear as SD and mtd-utils doesn't work on sd afaik
[21:16] <ukscone> some do well they don't complain and do seem to do something useful
[21:16] <ReggieUK> oh?
[21:16] <ReggieUK> wery intewesting.....
[21:16] <ukscone> yup ok i have destroyed the sd card on occasion but mostly they don't whine that much and seem to do what they claim to do
[21:16] <ReggieUK> with mtd utils?
[21:17] <ukscone> the biggest whine they make is when actually building busybox with them if you don't have everything setup right
[21:18] <ReggieUK> we have busybox but mtd-utils2 is something we comile seperately
[21:18] <ReggieUK> along with the ubi stuff
[21:18] <ukscone> i'll have to check busybox as the last one i built was a 0.17 one and the ones prebuilt in aboriginal don't have them incl. iirc
[21:20] <ukscone> but i've used on both the internal nand and sd card in a zipit
[21:45] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[21:51] <ShiftPlusOne> what's ifup/ifdown/ifconfig provided by?
[21:55] <traeak> net-tools :-p
[21:56] * fjon (~jon@CPE0026f320f448-CM0026f320f445.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[21:59] <ShiftPlusOne> don't see it in buildroot
[22:00] <ReggieUK> busybox
[22:02] <ShiftPlusOne> without busybox
[22:05] <ukscone> they are debianisms iirc
[22:05] <ukscone> so if you are not using debian or a debian based distro you'll have to do it all manually
[22:05] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, thank you
[22:06] <ShiftPlusOne> I'll just get over it and use busybox for now then
[22:06] <ukscone> you can alias them if you want as they are really only flashy versions of ifconfig eth0 up
[22:07] <ukscone> ifconfig eth0 down.....
[22:07] <ukscone> or as you say use bb
[22:07] <ShiftPlusOne> ifconfig is missing as well though
[22:07] <DaQatz> odd
[22:08] <ShiftPlusOne> maybe not missing, but I can't find it.
[22:08] <DaQatz> It may simply not be in your path?
[22:09] <fossjon_home> echo $PATH :)
[22:10] <ShiftPlusOne> perhaps, the real issue is that sysvinit wouldn't compile, so I was trying to get a proper environment just out of init=/bin/bash ... it'll work fine with busybox.
[22:10] <ukscone> ifconfig is in bb iirc on buildroot
[22:11] <ukscone> it hides everything busybox provides if there is a standalone version too
[22:11] <ShiftPlusOne> i disabled busybox, so it showed everything. there's also a "hide packages provided by busybox" option which can be unchecked.
[22:16] <ShiftPlusOne> this could be cool with a raspberry pi... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2isActDQnw
[23:19] <ukscone> ok it's offical now -- liz and eben will be at maker faire nyc in a couple of weeks
[23:22] <traeak> cool, i guess
[23:25] <ukscone> it is cool especially if you got free tickets from digikey :)
[23:25] <ukscone> helps to live in the nyc tristate area though
[23:26] <ukscone> might not be cool if you live in outer mongolia until they do maker faire Ulaanbaatar
[23:30] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has left #raspberrypi
[23:32] <mdavey> Free tickets for Transfer Summit also up for grabs!

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