#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2012-01-05

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:01] * jmichaelx (~james@ has joined #raspberrypi
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[0:07] * gomiboy (~frodone@ppp-110-31.21-151.libero.it) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[0:08] <mdavey> chris_99: I think mainly computer collectors although it is a possibility that museums, other wealthy individuals and even companies that want early or cheap access to broadcom development board are also bidding.
[0:08] * hopsy is now known as Hopsy
[0:09] <chris_99> yeah that sounds about right
[0:09] * curlybob (~blue@cpc3-ward8-2-0-cust346.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:10] <mdavey> Its quite a nice way to give some money to a charity you want to support - and you get a little gift to say thanks. Apparently the Foundation has raised over ??6000 selling stickers at ??1.20 each.
[0:10] <chris_99> wow, nice
[0:10] <WASDx> wow..
[0:11] <WASDx> can't imagine how quick the boards will sell out
[0:11] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[0:12] <mdavey> Over 50k people have registered on the mailing list apparently.
[0:12] <WASDx> i decided to not buy a sticker because the shipping made it several times more expensive. I'll buy one together with the board if they are both in stock
[0:12] <Thorn_> in another news: spamhaus blocks raspberry pi smtp for high email traffic :P
[0:13] <WASDx> I got a linux-sticker already that i will use on my chassi :D
[0:13] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[0:14] * tom_say (~pain@cpe-68-203-248-184.stx.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[0:39] * wwalker (~wwalker@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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[0:44] * Cheery (~cheery@a88-113-48-33.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
[0:56] * roman3x (~roman3x@bband-dyn157.95-103-232.t-com.sk) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:01] <Jarii> #01 is on ebay! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raspberry-Pi-Model-B-beta-board-01-limited-series-10-/180786868894?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a17bcb29e
[1:02] <WASDx> yay
[1:02] <WASDx> was just about to check
[1:03] <WASDx> rising fast
[1:03] <Jarii> hehe yeah
[1:04] * feep (~feep@p5B2B2641.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[1:10] <mdavey> its already up to ??1300
[1:11] <Jarii> ?2000 now !
[1:15] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[1:18] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:18] <traeak> woah
[1:18] <traeak> someone has too much money
[1:20] <traeak> board 10 2100L
[1:20] <mdavey> the average commercial development board sells for ??2000-5000. Anyone else willing to bet #1 exceeds ??5000?
[1:21] <Thorn_> no, last time i bet on the value of the auction boards i lost
[1:21] <vvvfjjuoghg> traeak: L?
[1:22] <traeak> i don't have a european keyboard
[1:22] <mdavey> used: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-2-Sets-Freescale-i-MX31-ARM11-Development-board-/180786766075?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item2a17bb20fb
[1:23] <vvvfjjuoghg> traeak: GBP
[1:23] <vvvfjjuoghg> also, neither I have an european keyboard and I can go ?????? all day long.
[1:24] <Thorn_> im pretty sure even lithuanian keyboards have ??
[1:24] <Thorn_> and there's a damn good reason for that
[1:24] <Thorn_> because the british empire run the world
[1:24] * themArt (~themArt@94-195-254-156.zone9.bethere.co.uk) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238])
[1:24] * curlybob (~blue@cpc3-ward8-2-0-cust346.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[1:25] <mdavey> Thorn_: or at least those parts not run by the US or China.
[1:25] <mdavey> Thorn_: and then it would be the English :P
[1:26] <vvvfjjuoghg> mdavey: I have a US Keyboard and I can ??
[1:26] <Thorn_> mdavey: ;P
[1:26] <vvvfjjuoghg> But, it's US International keyboard.
[1:27] * mdavey is now known as mdavey_asleep
[1:28] <vvvfjjuoghg> Also I found a Cortex M3 developement board for 30USD
[1:28] <vvvfjjuoghg> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-STM32F103RBT6-development-board-2-8-TFT-true-color-touch-screen-module-/250962288484?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6e849f64
[1:28] <mdavey_asleep> (nn)
[1:28] <vvvfjjuoghg> Good night mdavey_asleep
[1:31] * EastLight (t@5ac4af22.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:32] <piofcube> The cortex m3 usually come in Micro LQFP or BGA packages, right?
[1:36] <Thorn_> nope, they come in cardboard boxes like most packages
[1:36] * Thorn_ ducks
[1:37] <piofcube> Could be plastic :P
[1:37] <vvvfjjuoghg> piofcube: Yep, it look like the development board I linked is using a QFP packaged chip.
[1:38] <piofcube> I'm going to stick with DIP for a while... Until I get most of the basic tutorials done anyway
[1:39] <vvvfjjuoghg> I wonder if the LCD is available separately. If I'm reading the description correctly it looks like it is SPI interface; that can be interfaced with by the r-pi's GPIO, right?
[1:44] <piofcube> If you're going to use a Dev kit, you could send output from the R-Pi through the M3. I'm going to do the same but with the MSP430G on a media streamer so the LCD can display time when the R-Pi is off and also manage the power so I can turn on the R-Pi with a remote. I should also be able to get a RTC made available to the R-Pi with that also.
[1:45] <vvvfjjuoghg> Aha.
[1:45] <vvvfjjuoghg> What's your planned application for the r-pi?
[1:46] <piofcube> LOL... I have many applications. Most for the Non-Profit I'm involved with... Some fun ones I'm doing as myself.
[1:48] <piofcube> Just received some supplies today from Rapid for the tutorials... Disposable etching kits, some copper board etc etc... will be fun
[1:50] <piofcube> New protobloc because most of mine have vanished :S all but one which has seen better days :(
[1:50] <vvvfjjuoghg> I'm a CS/CE student in university and I'm basically getting a raspberrypi because it's cheap and not x86
[1:50] <piofcube> good reasons ;-)
[1:51] <piofcube> I'm doing a comparison between two media streamers... Celeron M Minit-ITX versus R-Pi... I think the R-Pi might just beat it... definately on cost anyway
[1:52] <vvvfjjuoghg> I don't really have an application determined for it, but I have a couple ideas of automotive entertainment and small servers
[1:53] * roman3x_ (~roman3x@bband-dyn157.95-103-232.t-com.sk) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:53] <piofcube> We'll be releasing all of the documentation etc for projects done by the non-profit under Open Source so anyone can make use of them
[1:54] <vvvfjjuoghg> Why Celeron M and not Atom or Zacate or some ARM-based NAS?
[1:54] <piofcube> That was on the board that I could get cheap...
[1:55] <piofcube> I wanted to compare the R-Pi vrs x86 and that was one of the cheapest on offer
[1:56] <Thorn_> ARM ftl, etrax is the way forward
[1:56] <piofcube> hell yeah ;-)
[1:57] * roman3x (~roman3x@bband-dyn157.95-103-232.t-com.sk) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[1:59] <vvvfjjuoghg> etrax?
[1:59] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[1:59] <piofcube> axis do extrax stuff
[2:00] <piofcube> etrax**
[2:00] <vvvfjjuoghg> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1GB-mini2440-ARM9-ARM-DEVELOPMENT-Board-3-5-CAM-wifi-/320674575197?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa9b1b35d
[2:00] <vvvfjjuoghg> Fake iPhone OS interface. Classy.
[2:15] * UnaClocker (~unaclocke@24-113-85-150.wavecable.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:17] * zhost (~pp@host- Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[2:22] * EastLight (t@5ac4af22.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[2:26] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Quit: you are doing it wr.... WAIT WHAT ARE YOU DOING ?, meh i am off killing some time by actually killing time)
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[7:04] * ShiftPlusOne (~Shift@203-214-42-73.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:04] <PiBot> ShiftPlusOne| well we're running out of corners and the stoopid people corner is mine! >=/
[7:14] * vgrade (~martinbro@cpc2-nrte22-2-0-cust128.8-4.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[7:23] * jewel (~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:23] * UnderSampled (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[7:29] * Da|Mummy (~veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:43] * Liam` (~quassel@ool-182f5411.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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[8:27] * prebz (~prebz@c83-254-49-189.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #raspberrypi
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[9:26] * ShiftPlusOne (~Shift@203-214-42-73.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[9:37] * mdavey_asleep is now known as mdavey
[9:37] <mdavey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZugwH8HQ6Wk
[9:43] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[9:46] <ahven> nice
[9:46] <ahven> but why is it in a little box, not using the whole screen? performance/memory issues?
[9:47] <Stskeeps> does it look like 800x480? think that's cos of the way the qt guys initialize the screen
[9:55] * roman3x (~roman3x@bband-dyn157.95-103-232.t-com.sk) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:26] * BjornW (~bjorn@miniski.xs4all.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:32] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:46] <ahven> so the battle of #10 vs #1 has begun
[10:46] <ahven> which one will have the highest price :)
[10:50] * themArt (~themArt@87-194-162-126.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:50] <RaTTuS|BIG> #1
[10:51] <ahven> thinking the same, but I would have expected a bigger difference
[10:52] <ahven> still, a week to go
[11:05] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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[11:39] * Jarii (~Jarii@host139-135-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[12:09] * mdavey_ is now known as mdavey
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[13:50] * kcj (~casey@unaffiliated/kcj1993) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:57] * IT_Sean (~sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:57] <PiBot> IT_Sean| Wahey! Sean is here! :D
[13:59] <WASDx> both board #10 and ??1 at ??2100 now
[14:00] <IT_Sean> too rich for my blood
[14:00] <WASDx> anything beyond $35 is for me
[14:00] <WASDx> :P
[14:01] <IT_Sean> spending that sort of cash on a raspi seems a bit silly to me. ::shrug::
[14:04] * Faperdaper (~Faperdape@dhcp-077-250-027-109.chello.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:06] <friggle> it's for a very good cause :)
[14:08] * Hopsy|2 is now known as Hopsy
[14:08] <IT_Sean> Yes. It is. And I agree it's a good cause. It's just too rich for my wallet.
[14:14] * RaTTuS|BIG is going to try for #11 .... btu 'm more likely to get #10001
[14:15] <RaTTuS|BIG> though hopefully in the 1st 10k ....
[14:17] <WASDx> i'm unsure if i'm quick enough to get from the 10000 first
[14:17] <WASDx> how will they payments be handled? paypal?
[14:21] <RaTTuS|BIG> dunno - I've got an account on the shop but not bought anythign yet ... probably CC / paypal .... but ..... dunno
[14:22] <IT_Sean> I would imagine paypal, either via account xfer or cc
[14:30] <RaTTuS|BIG> it is setup for paypal ... I wish it would use cc also ...
[14:30] <RaTTuS|BIG> as I dont get along with paypal that much ..... grrr
[14:34] <WASDx> i'm having paypal problems right now. I was gonna donate $1 to a guy but it just said Error and it took $1 from my account twice
[14:34] <WASDx> and i've just heard bad thing about them
[14:35] * RobinJ1995 (robinj@net.freebnc.freebnc.net) Quit (Excess Flood)
[14:35] <WASDx> hmm not sure what has happened now
[14:35] <WASDx> those two dollars are not in my bank history any more
[14:36] <WASDx> I think i still have them
[14:38] * RobinJ (robinj@unaffiliated/robinj) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:39] <ahven> you *think* that they are yours :)
[14:40] <WASDx> my bank history says they never were withdrawed now. For at week it has said "hidden outcome" or something
[14:40] <WASDx> silly banks
[14:44] * roman3x (~roman3x@bband-dyn157.95-103-232.t-com.sk) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:45] <IT_Sean> banks are ____ers
[14:45] <WASDx> yep
[14:45] <WASDx> paypal too
[14:45] <WASDx> i'm afraid they will freeze the RPi payments like they did with minecraft when it got big
[14:45] <WASDx> also they froze some accounted that collected donations to buy christmas presents to poor kids
[14:46] <WASDx> never hear anythin positive about them
[14:47] <IT_Sean> I've never had a problem with paypal. But, i have heard alot of other people complaining about them.
[14:47] <IT_Sean> I don't use it all that much. Just for fleebay.
[14:48] <IT_Sean> I'd much prefer to just slap the raspi on plastic, then deal with paypal, to be quite honest.
[14:49] <WASDx> do you mean buy it in a regular store?
[14:49] <IT_Sean> I mean just be able to use a credit card, as opposed to paypal fund transfer
[14:49] <WASDx> yeah me too
[15:01] <WASDx> I have a feature called "e-card" that lets me create virtual bankcards with any amount
[15:01] <WASDx> i use that when i pay online
[15:01] <IT_Sean> groovy
[15:12] <ahven> WASDx: we have it here as well
[15:12] <ahven> much more secure than a permanent card
[15:12] <WASDx> where is "here" :P
[15:12] <ahven> Estonia :P
[15:13] <WASDx> ok sweden here
[15:13] <WASDx> would be fun if we were from the same country
[15:13] <WASDx> "hey we have e-cards here" "so do we!"
[15:14] <IT_Sean> My bank hasn't got those
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[15:22] * qzx (ze@anime.is) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[15:23] <ahven> only one back, SEB, offers this
[15:24] <ahven> probably the same bank as well, WASDx?
[15:24] <WASDx> I thought SEB was swedish
[15:24] <WASDx> however that's not the one i have
[15:24] * qzx (ze@anime.is) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:24] <ahven> SEB is swedish
[15:24] <WASDx> but international?
[15:24] <ahven> yep
[15:25] <ahven> my money is actually in sweden :(
[15:25] <WASDx> hehe
[15:25] <WASDx> where? ;)
[15:25] <WASDx> not that I would go and take it or anything...
[15:25] <ahven> if I only knew myself
[15:25] <WASDx> Probably a number in a database
[15:25] <WASDx> that's what money is today
[15:25] <ahven> remove power and you are broke :P
[15:26] <WASDx> yup
[15:26] <IT_Sean> well... broke + whatever notes are in your pocket :p
[15:26] <IT_Sean> so... yeah... broke.
[15:27] <ahven> physical currency isn't so lasting too, inflation is the biggest killer
[15:27] <IT_Sean> indeed. :/
[15:28] <IT_Sean> If the worst should happen... food, medical supplies, and mechanical skills would be the new currency.
[15:29] <ahven> my skills would go down the drain
[15:29] <IT_Sean> I would hope that my technical skills would be useful.
[15:29] <ahven> there is always pure physical labor
[15:30] <ahven> you always need that after cataclysm :)
[15:30] <IT_Sean> I'm pretty good at mending electronics, and at figuring out ways to repurpose sutff for new uses.
[15:30] <IT_Sean> I'm crap at manual labor, though.
[15:30] <IT_Sean> I'm pretty sure i'm allergic to heavy lifting.
[15:30] <IT_Sean> :p
[15:30] <ahven> sneeze all the time? :P
[15:31] <IT_Sean> only when i'm lifting something heavy.
[15:31] <IT_Sean> ;p
[15:31] * cerberos (~cerberos@ has joined #raspberrypi
[15:39] <WASDx> you could use a physical currency that can't be printed, like gold
[15:39] <WASDx> i'm not into that stuff but i've heard it has benefits
[15:39] <WASDx> no inflation for instance, unless much new gold is found
[15:40] <IT_Sean> I wouldn't recommend using leaves for currency, though, as they do, quite litterally, grow on trees.
[15:40] <IT_Sean> You'd end up with someting on the order of an entire african rainforest to buy one peanut.
[15:41] <WASDx> haha
[15:44] <azalyn> canada has plastic money now..
[15:44] <azalyn> they're starting to roll it out.
[15:44] <azalyn> the first bill is the $100 bill.
[15:44] <azalyn> by like 2013 or 2014 or something, all the money will be plastic.
[15:44] <WASDx> they/you also have milk in plastic bags..
[15:45] <azalyn> it's kind of nifty.. it's far more resilient. and apparently it's waterproof
[15:45] <azalyn> so when you go swimming, you can tuck it inside your bathing suit
[15:45] <IT_Sean> Australian money is plastic, iirc.
[15:45] <azalyn> http://www.gtglobaltrader.com/news/canada-switches-plastic-money
[15:46] <IT_Sean> But, they've got toilets that swirl the wrong way, so... take that for what it's worth. :p
[15:46] <azalyn> yes, but do they have TRANSPARENCY!?
[15:46] <azalyn> :P
[15:46] <IT_Sean> I don't think so.
[15:46] <azalyn> that part on the right is see-through
[15:46] <IT_Sean> I don't have any aussi notes on me at the moment to check.
[15:47] <IT_Sean> :p
[15:47] <azalyn> i'd prefer if we just switched completely to digital currency personally, but at least this will improve things a bit.
[15:47] <azalyn> it's supposed to save a bunch of money.
[15:48] <IT_Sean> meh... I prefer having cash on me for small purchases.
[15:49] <azalyn> also, the gold/silver/etc crap is somewhat silly... it's kind of a loony sort of thing.
[15:49] <azalyn> and not really based on sound economics from my understanding.
[15:49] <azalyn> gold historically was only valuable because it's 'shiny'
[15:49] <azalyn> and that is still pretty much true now.
[15:50] <IT_Sean> Besides... there are some things i wouldn't want an electronic record of :p Like the time in college that my roommate and i bet the girls across the hall that they wouldn't make naked snow angels in the quad. :p Be a bit hard to do that without cash.
[15:50] <azalyn> it's kind of useless... apart from gold plating stuff.. like pins on electronics.
[15:51] * Hopsy|2 (~kvirc@ has joined #raspberrypi
[15:51] <azalyn> IT_Sean: i don't want records either.
[15:51] <azalyn> you don't need records in order to have digital currency.
[15:51] <IT_Sean> That bet cost me $50, but it was sooooooooo worth it. :D
[15:52] * Hopsy (~kvirc@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[15:52] <azalyn> records exist because the companies in charge of digital systems make more money by tracking what you do.
[15:52] <azalyn> and of course, the government wants to track you as well.
[15:52] <azalyn> a cryptocurrency like bitcoin is pretty much completely untraceable.
[15:53] <azalyn> just like cash.
[15:56] * Hopsy|2 (~kvirc@ Quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
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[16:38] <ahven> http://gizmodo.com/5873268/someone-is-paying-3000-for-this-computer-with-a-700mhz-processor-and-128mb-of-ram
[16:39] <WASDx> haha
[16:39] <ahven> atleast their facts are straight there :)
[16:40] <WASDx> I wonder if you can buy a minicomputer for $35 in 20 years that is as powerful as what we have today
[16:40] <ahven> old used i7...
[16:41] <IT_Sean> About a year ago, i purchased an old P4 for less than $20. Sold it six months ago for over $100.
[16:41] <WASDx> their facts are not straight however, they are talking about model A when it's B being auctioned
[16:41] <ahven> aah, missed that one
[16:42] * jewel (~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:46] * IT_Sean found the perfect power switch for his as of yet unbuilt raspi case yesterday
[16:46] <IT_Sean> salvaged it from a device that was bound for the recycler.
[16:47] <IT_Sean> metal case... matte black finish... SPST key switch, and the key is removable in both the on and off positions
[16:48] <piofcube> There should be an exchange site... swap old bits for other old bits... even if you have to pay a couple of quid for to cover the site's expanses and the true cost of postage ;-)
[16:49] <IT_Sean> that would be pretty neat.
[16:49] <IT_Sean> :p
[16:49] <IT_Sean> this siwtch is nicely clunky, and they key is still shiny.
[16:49] <piofcube> Nice
[16:50] <piofcube> Anyone remember Saturday Swapshop? LOL
[16:50] <ahven> WASDx: commented on the subject over there
[16:50] <IT_Sean> There is no rating on the switch body. But, the device i pulled it from ran on 48v DC, the switch was jsut interupting the positive lead, and the device had to be pulling more current than a raspi, so... I should be golden :p
[16:50] * piofcube looks over there
[16:51] <ahven> @ gizmodo.com article :)
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[17:00] <LiENUS> lol #1 and #10 are both 2100 right now
[17:01] * RobinJ (robinj@unaffiliated/robinj) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:01] <IT_Sean> How much to you want ot bet it's people bidding on both, trying to get whichever is cheaper.
[17:01] <IT_Sean> i.e. as soon as one becomes more aspensive, people start bidding on the other.
[17:06] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:07] <wwalker> game theory.... yum
[17:07] <IT_Sean> huh?
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[17:35] <WASDx> Does anyone know of the network-port has a led? So it flashes when it's working
[17:36] * Maroni (~user@109-126-110-191.dyn.orange.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:36] <IT_Sean> iirc, there are three LEDs. One for power, one for SD card ACT, and one for network (connected and ACT in one LED)
[17:36] <IT_Sean> but, do not quote me on that.
[17:37] * curlybob (~blue@cpc3-ward8-2-0-cust346.10-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:37] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/PC236526.jpg <- from that yes
[17:38] <IT_Sean> so, it tics all the right boxes in the blinky LED column :p
[17:38] <WASDx> I ment like http://idoc.vsb.cz/miranda2/export/sites-root/idoc/en/okruhy/cit/tuonet/pripojeni/studenti/koleje/problem/images/nic_led1.png
[17:39] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/PC236526.jpg looking at that no
[17:39] <IT_Sean> No. As far as i know, it hasn't got them on the port itself.
[17:39] <RaTTuS|BIG> umm
[17:39] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te8jt-jUkm8&feature=player_embedded <- that one
[17:39] <WASDx> RaTTuS|BIG: you can't see the front of the port there
[17:39] <WASDx> will check the video now
[17:40] <IT_Sean> RaTTuS|BIG: IS there one on the port?
[17:40] <RaTTuS|BIG> yeah synergy_+ brokem my copy paste
[17:40] <RaTTuS|BIG> no there is not one on the port
[17:40] <IT_Sean> i didn't think so
[17:40] <IT_Sean> iirc, there is ONE network LED on the _board_. It lights for connectivity, and blinks on activity.
[17:47] <IT_Sean> WASDx: it should be relativly easy to desolder the board network LED and relocate it with some leads soldered to the LED pads.
[17:49] <WASDx> not for me :P
[17:49] <IT_Sean> why not?
[17:49] <WASDx> no experience in soldering
[17:49] <IT_Sean> oh
[17:49] <IT_Sean> bugger.
[17:49] <IT_Sean> I need to better hone my SMT skills (that's an understatment), but, i'm not completly useless w/ an iron.
[17:50] <IT_Sean> That said, i do plan on relocating all three LEDs to the outside of the case i make.
[17:50] <WASDx> good idea
[17:51] <IT_Sean> i thought so.
[17:51] * IT_Sean debates what colol LEDs to use
[17:51] <IT_Sean> *color
[17:52] <WASDx> infrared
[17:52] <WASDx> so when you process something, your TV reacts in a random way
[17:52] <ahven> hmm, just had an interesting idea
[17:52] <WASDx> as if it were a remote
[17:53] <IT_Sean> no
[17:53] <IT_Sean> something visible to the human eye.
[17:53] <ahven> tricolour hdd activity led and colour varies dependantly of system load :)
[17:55] <RaTTuS|BIG> red write / green read ...
[17:55] <IT_Sean> My thought was more along the lines of just relocating the existing LEDs to the case, but... That's a ctually a pretty neat idea.
[17:56] <IT_Sean> but, on the basis of just using single color LEDs for now, i'm leaning towards red, or orange.
[17:56] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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[17:57] <IT_Sean> And i'll probably use large dome style LEDs and sand the top of the casing down to be flush with the surface of the raspi case.
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[18:36] <azalyn> wait, is the r-pi 700MHz?
[18:36] <azalyn> i thought it was like 500
[18:36] <azalyn> or something.
[18:36] <WASDx> it's 700
[18:37] <Thorn_> 700
[18:37] <IT_Sean> woah
[18:37] <IT_Sean> that's a fuck of a lot of hertz
[18:37] <WASDx> indeed
[18:37] <azalyn> that's a better deal than i thought. i thought it was 500 or something.
[18:39] <azalyn> we might have terahertz CPUs one day. if they can figure out how to use graphene for integrated circuits.
[18:39] <azalyn> ibm apparently showed off a graphene transistor that was doing like 300GHz. and that's just a first-gen attempt.
[18:40] <traeak> silicon is prolly close to its limits
[18:40] <traeak> GaAs is a small gain
[18:40] <traeak> etc
[18:41] <traeak> i want to be able to build chips in my garage
[18:41] <azalyn> that's only going to happen with advanced nanotechnology... and that shit is extremely dangerous.
[18:42] <IT_Sean> dangerous, aye? :p
[18:42] <azalyn> nanotechnology could destroy us if we don't phase it in carefully.
[18:42] <IT_Sean> danger fun.
[18:42] <IT_Sean> oooh
[18:42] <IT_Sean> yeah, okay, that sort of danger isn't fun.
[18:43] <azalyn> well, think of this... we're talking about a factory that can sit on your desk, and assemble things at the atomic level (or molecular level perhaps at first.. but eventually atomic)
[18:43] <azalyn> which of course includes the ability to build another nanofactory with the first one.
[18:43] <IT_Sean> that would be bad.
[18:43] <IT_Sean> We wound need some sort of anti-nesting protocol :p
[18:44] <azalyn> it only takes like one sociopath out of 7 billion people on earth to create a doomsday weapon using that technology..
[18:44] <IT_Sean> Although, it would be awesome if you could justh ave a little box in your garage that would make stuff :p
[18:44] * IT_Sean would spend the day at home pressing the "Make Raspi" button
[18:44] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev)
[18:45] <azalyn> heh, forget the ras-pi. you could make a computer the size of a human cell that is more powerful...
[18:45] <azalyn> way more
[18:46] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:46] <azalyn> honestly, i'm not sure how we'll get around these issues. i tend to be an optimist, but this stuff is very difficult to figure out. i'm not sure how we can make it work..
[18:47] <azalyn> IT_Sean: http://www.crnano.org/dangers.htm
[18:47] <IT_Sean> <-- at werk, can't click
[18:48] <azalyn> it's worksafe though
[18:48] <IT_Sean> ah... okay. s'long as it's SFW
[18:49] <azalyn> it's mostly just text.
[18:49] * IT_Sean 'll read it later
[18:50] <azalyn> i think one solution to this problem is to just not keep any secrets long-term... make the technology open, and then just use crowdsourcing to create defensive strategies for all possible offensive uses of the technology...
[18:50] <IT_Sean> What we really need is star-trek like replicator technology. use it to make crap, then, instead of tossing it in a landfill, idsassemble it to it's component elementsand use it to make other crap. :p
[18:50] <azalyn> in theory... if you have millions of people working to create countermeasures to abusive uses... and so on, then the few bad apples will always be one step behind.
[18:51] <IT_Sean> 'less you get a laod of bad apples, working together in secret.
[18:52] <IT_Sean> like... in a secret lair, inside a hollowed out volcano.
[18:52] <IT_Sean> or somtin like tha.t
[18:52] <azalyn> it'll be like a global think tank, constantly looking to preempt the bad guys, trying to discover the potentially bad uses first, and coming up with countermeasures.
[18:52] <azalyn> IT_Sean: or north korea...
[18:52] <azalyn> :|
[18:52] <IT_Sean> bloody north kooreens
[18:53] <azalyn> honestly, a nanotech society may lead to human extinction unless we all unify into one nation... because with this sort of dangerous technology, it may be impossible to tolerate rogue states like north korea anymore..
[18:53] * adolf33 (~adolf33@243.145.broadband12.iol.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:54] <adolf33> Hi all
[18:54] <IT_Sean> human extinction would put a bit of a damper on my day.
[18:54] <IT_Sean> :(
[18:54] <Thorn_> am i the only one who saw subtle sick humour in what just happened ?
[18:54] <IT_Sean> dunno... what just happened?
[18:54] <azalyn> because for my crowdsourcing idea to work, it would require that the 'bad guys' never have funding or support. ideally they are individuals and have very little power to organize.
[18:54] <IT_Sean> oooooooooh
[18:54] <IT_Sean> HAHAHAHAAH!
[18:55] <IT_Sean> I totally missed that!
[18:55] <Thorn_> :D
[18:55] <IT_Sean> Good call Thorn_
[18:55] <azalyn> if you have entire rogue nations like north korea out there, it could be bad.
[18:55] <azalyn> Thorn_: lolz... i didn't notice.
[18:55] <adolf33> Do yo guys know some exact date of start selling the Pi?
[18:56] <Thorn_> not exact, end of jan we hope
[18:56] * IT_Sean saves a screenshot of that
[18:56] <azalyn> IT_Sean: by the way... nanotechnology *would* essentially be like star trek replicators... :|
[18:56] <azalyn> that's why it's so dangerous.
[18:56] <azalyn> the main difference is that nanotech wouldn't make stuff in "thin air" or whatever...
[18:56] <azalyn> but the result is essentially the same.
[18:56] <adolf33> I hope so :D I wanna be first owner of this in my country :D
[18:57] <azalyn> adolf33: there's some units selling on ebay i think..?
[18:57] <IT_Sean> azalyn: ST replicators didn't make stuff out of "thin air". Have you even READ the ST:TNG tech manual!?
[18:57] <azalyn> maybe they're sold out
[18:57] <azalyn> IT_Sean: no... :P
[18:57] <IT_Sean> azalyn: you should.
[18:57] <IT_Sean> 's a good read
[18:57] <adolf33> yeah but $3000 is much money for that istn't it?
[18:57] * IT_Sean has it on his iPad
[18:58] <adolf33> And it doesn't have INTL shipping
[18:58] <IT_Sean> adolf33: yes it does
[18:58] <IT_Sean> read the website
[18:58] <azalyn> i didn't mean that there wasn't some kind of matter involved, IT_Sean... i'm saying that you don't see a machine assembling anything.. you just see it 'appear' in the replicator.
[18:58] <azalyn> although technically, nanomachines might be so small that you could simulate the same effect..
[18:59] <IT_Sean> the "machine" that assembles it is a matter-energy translator, similar, but less precise, than the ones in transporter pads.
[18:59] <azalyn> honestly, nanotech would allow us to actually exceed some of the technology in star trek...
[18:59] <azalyn> for example, in star trek, they seem to still have strange medical limitations, at odds with their level of technology.
[18:59] <adolf33> And I'm looking for some monitor for this... Not big, maximaly 10 inches... And with supported resolution
[18:59] <azalyn> nanotech would almost certainly lead to immortality.
[18:59] <IT_Sean> Just don't let wesley crusher (that wanker) leave a jar of nannites open!
[19:00] <azalyn> of course we still don't have a solution for faster than light travel..
[19:00] <IT_Sean> That's the biggie in my book.
[19:00] <azalyn> or interstellar travel i should say..
[19:01] <IT_Sean> fast, reliable interstellar travel would be A Good Thing.
[19:01] <azalyn> but for everything else that star trek has, nanotech alone could give us that level of tech.
[19:01] <IT_Sean> I mean... fat lot of good it does discovering another earth-like planet if we cannot GET to it.
[19:01] * cryptix (~cryptix@g224133185.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:03] <azalyn> well, short-term, you can look forward to us colonizing our own solar system
[19:03] <azalyn> not just planets
[19:03] <azalyn> but massive space stations
[19:03] <azalyn> etc
[19:04] <azalyn> nanotech would make that kind of stuff easy.
[19:04] <azalyn> like trivial almost.
[19:04] <azalyn> as long as you have the matter, you're good to go.
[19:04] <IT_Sean> Setting foot on another planet (or a moon, etc..) would be the ultimate adventure.
[19:04] <IT_Sean> Lets colonize the moon!
[19:04] <IT_Sean> I mean, why not! It's only just there.
[19:04] <azalyn> IT_Sean: let's put it this way... nanotechnology could make developing any real world machine or device as easy as developing software.
[19:05] <IT_Sean> It doesn't take very long to get to it.
[19:05] <azalyn> within the confines of the laws of physics of course..
[19:06] <IT_Sean> of course.
[19:07] <mdavey> IT_Sean: A lunar equivilent of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eden_Project would be a good start.
[19:07] <IT_Sean> And if we had the infrastructure on the moon, it'd serve as a jumping off point for larger spacecraft. Ones too big to easily escape earth's gravity. We could, from that point, colonize other planets, once we'd found a way to get to them fairly quickly.
[19:07] <mdavey> Actually, space elevator should be our first goal.
[19:08] <azalyn> yeah, i agree. space elevators would be far more realistic.
[19:09] <mdavey> http://www.physorg.com/news151938445.html
[19:09] <azalyn> a moon base has other issues. like it would be hard to leave people there for really long periods.. we'd need some sort of artificial gravity..
[19:10] <azalyn> maybe using centrifugal force?
[19:10] <azalyn> i know that's possible for a space station
[19:10] <azalyn> if it rotates, like in space odyssey.
[19:10] <azalyn> but i don't know if you can hack together something similar on the surface of a planet
[19:11] <azalyn> or a moon. whatever
[19:11] <IT_Sean> bugger... forgot about that
[19:11] <adolf33> What's minimal resolution for the Pi monitor?
[19:11] <IT_Sean> anywhoo... work to be done. Its been fun, but, i am off a bit
[19:11] * IT_Sean (~sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi
[19:12] <azalyn> carbon nanotubes would also be trivial to manufacture with the use of nanotechnology.
[19:12] <azalyn> oddly enough, with nanotech we might just end up using carbon for almost everything... it's an extremely versatile element...
[19:13] <traeak> and there's lots of carbon around
[19:13] <azalyn> not surprising that it's the main element in life, given it's properties.
[19:13] <azalyn> and abundance.
[19:14] <adolf33> Can anybody answer my question?
[19:14] <azalyn> adolf33: i don't know.
[19:14] <azalyn> personally i'm curious if the pi can do 1920x1200 ... a lot of people say '1080p' for marketing reasons, but they can usually do 1920x1200.
[19:15] <azalyn> i'm curious if that's the case here
[19:15] <traeak> appaerntly it can't do 1920x1200 just 1080p
[19:15] <traeak> i asked that a long time ago
[19:15] <traeak> or just wait :-p
[19:15] <traeak> worst case is you get bars
[19:15] <mdavey> I think minimum resolution is more likely to depend on the display device than the R.Pi. It can certainly do PAL SD, NTSC SD and various HD.
[19:16] <azalyn> yeah, i don't mind bars too much. i was just curious.
[19:16] <azalyn> the pi is already pretty awesome for price vs functionality
[19:16] <adolf33> So any resolution Higher than VGA?
[19:16] <mdavey> traeak: can't do 1920x1200 for graphics, or just not for video?
[19:16] <azalyn> adolf33: it can do 1080p at least.
[19:16] <piofcube> I thought 1920x1200 was 8:5 not 16:9?
[19:16] <azalyn> it's 16:10
[19:17] <azalyn> which i guess is the same as 8:5 ?
[19:17] <piofcube> LOL... yeah
[19:17] <azalyn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg
[19:17] <azalyn> useful ^
[19:17] <azalyn> 16:10 is closer to the 'golden ratio'
[19:18] <mdavey> Remember thou that PAL and NTSC don't have square pixels.
[19:19] <piofcube> and it's really 3 dots per pixel for the colour
[19:20] <azalyn> isn't NTSC 480i ?
[19:21] <mdavey> adolf33: I suspect it can do VGA and lower. Remember, it is a mobile 'phone chip so can likely do small, low resolution LCD displays.
[19:21] <mdavey> Not all resolutions are supported on all outputs.
[19:21] <azalyn> is there any good reason that chipset vendors don't just allow you to use arbitrary resolutions/timings?
[19:22] <azalyn> both on the display side, and the gpu side.
[19:22] <azalyn> i mean in theory the scaler should be able to figure out the aspect ratio on the fly and just scale it properly.
[19:22] <azalyn> what's the problem?
[19:23] <azalyn> (that's on the display side)
[19:23] <mdavey> They usually specify minimum and maximum pixel clocks and line clock rates for the various outputs. This ends up defining what each output can actually do.
[19:23] <azalyn> i never understood why displays don't just accept anything you throw at them.
[19:23] <azalyn> CRTs used to be better in this regard as i recall
[19:24] <mdavey> I'm mainly taking about analog.
[19:25] <piofcube> Because once upon a time you could damage your monitor that way... Back in the early days of Linux you could do some nasty stuff if you didn't setup x correctly... I had a monitor I nearly killed that way.. LOL I still remember to sound it made when I accidently put the graphics setting too high.
[19:25] * Hopsy (~kvirc@ Quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
[19:26] <azalyn> piofcube: yeah, but that's not really the case anymore, and even so, back then when it *did* matter, they let you override anyways... if you had the right tools.
[19:26] <azalyn> these days displays are just stubborn.
[19:27] <piofcube> I think it's more a case of "normal" end-users not knowing what they're doing and wanting to return monitors that don't work. New monitors have safety cut-outs to prevent damage etc...
[19:27] <piofcube> new = anything since the stone age ;-)
[19:28] <azalyn> edid takes care of that.
[19:28] <DaQatz> No so companies are pretty cheap.
[19:28] <DaQatz> And have no issues skipping that.
[19:29] * vgrade (~martinbro@cpc2-nrte22-2-0-cust128.8-4.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:29] * mdavey (~chatzilla@visitor-net.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[19:30] <piofcube> However, I do think that in more and more cases, when monitor manufacturers are using the same PCB for different models, they can disable certain "features" so they can sell better models for higher prices while keeping costs down... Just a wild ass opinion but I've seen it in many other markets.
[19:34] <duckinator> piofcube: it's almost guaranteed to happen. whether it's common is a different story
[19:36] * adolf33 (~adolf33@243.145.broadband12.iol.cz) Quit (Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/)
[19:36] <piofcube> I made a nice profit once with the old analogue Sky tv boxes... I think it was Amstrad... The 16 channel model, if you typed in a certain set of remote control button sequences you turned it into a 48 channel model... They were half the price of the full unit LMAO.
[19:39] * Faperdaper (~Faperdape@dhcp-077-250-027-109.chello.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:44] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:45] <duckinator> piofcube: nice :D
[19:45] <duckinator> also, AGH. i just read the dailymail article about the Pi
[19:45] <duckinator> i wanted to gouge my eyes out with a fork. luckily, i'm too lazy to get one.
[19:45] <chris_99> haha, link?
[19:46] <duckinator> fair warning, it's painful: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2082556/The-pocket-sized-16-gizmo-turns-television-PC.html
[19:46] <duckinator> the comments are the worst part, as usual
[19:47] <duckinator> priceless example: "Britain is stuck in the 1980s with this contraption - it is ZX80 style minimalism got potty. Yes a great piece of kit for ?16, I think shoppers would be happy paying ?50 though for something 10 times better."
[19:47] * xlq (~apropos@89-168-178-110.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:47] <chris_99> "Britain is stuck in the 1980s with this contraption - it is ZX80 style minimalism got potty. Yes a great piece of kit for ?16, I think shoppers would be happy paying ?50 though for something 10 times better."
[19:47] <chris_99> goodness help us all
[19:47] <duckinator> lol
[19:48] <chris_99> heh
[19:48] <duckinator> chris_99: in case you're like me and didn't nkow the specifics of the ZX80, wikipedia is there for us: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX80
[19:48] <xlq> Yes, I probably would pay ??50 for something 10 times better. Pity such a thing doesn't exist.
[19:48] <duckinator> "[...] a Z80 central processing unit with a clock speed of 3.25 MHz, and was equipped with 1 kB of static RAM and 4 kB of read-only memory (ROM). The ZX80 was designed around readily available TTL chips; [...]"
[19:50] <duckinator> TIL that people consider 3.25MHz systems w/ 1kB RAM (which is apparently $408 USD/319 EUR when you adjust for inflation and such) to be equivalent to a 700MHz system w/ 128MB RAM (~$20 USD/16 EUR)
[19:50] <chris_99> i'm pretty certain the zx80 didn't come with a digital tv output
[19:50] <chris_99> could be wrong however ;)
[19:50] <duckinator> yea, i mean, who cares about that D;
[19:51] <azalyn> to be fair, they probably meant relative to the era.
[19:51] <azalyn> although even so, they are totally missing the point.
[19:51] <duckinator> yea no kidding
[19:51] <azalyn> maybe they don't understand what a "foundation" is.
[19:51] <chris_99> well he said 'stuck in the 1980s'
[19:51] * alan_ (~alan@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:51] <LiENUS> ok
[19:51] <azalyn> people keep treating it as if it's just a normal product
[19:51] <azalyn> from some corporation.
[19:51] <azalyn> trying to make profit.
[19:51] <LiENUS> so 50lbs for something 10x better
[19:51] * alan_ is now known as Guest3112
[19:51] <azalyn> i really dislike when people do that.
[19:51] <LiENUS> thats 3.1x the cost
[19:52] <LiENUS> at 16lbs for the rpi
[19:52] <LiENUS> BUT
[19:52] <LiENUS> how am i going to hook that 50lbs machine up to 3 diff tvs at the same time like you can with the rpi
[19:52] <duckinator> LiENUS: magic
[19:52] <azalyn> that's probably also why linux has had a difficult time gaining mainstream acceptance, everyone treats it the same way they would treat a proprietary product. which is the wrong way to think about it.
[19:52] <azalyn> i really dislike that way of thinking.
[19:53] <duckinator> azalyn: tbh, with Linux the issue seems (to me at least) to be that people are too stubborn to give anything a try even when offered a way to do so without the remote chance of screwing up their main system
[19:54] <LiENUS> tbh the problem with linux is people call it linux
[19:54] <duckinator> as opposed to GNU/Linux, i'm assuming? :P
[19:55] * alan_b (~alan@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:55] * Guest3112 (~alan@ Quit (Client Quit)
[19:55] <LiENUS> as opposed to calling it anything else
[19:55] <LiENUS> call it something else no one gives a fluck
[19:55] <LiENUS> they use it
[19:55] <LiENUS> androdo
[19:55] <LiENUS> linksys
[19:56] <duckinator> ...Ubuntu? :P
[19:56] <duckinator> (i've rarely heard it referred to as 'Ubuntu Linux')
[19:56] <LiENUS> i know plenty of people who use ubuntu too i was just thinking of more mainstream uses of linux
[19:57] * alan_b (~alan@ has left #raspberrypi
[19:57] <duckinator> i think part of the issue is that there's so many dingbats going "oh that's what hackers use"...someone actually called the cops on me when i told them i used linux. needless to say, i've not bothered talking to them since...
[19:57] <LiENUS> lol
[19:58] <LiENUS> thats awesome
[19:58] <LiENUS> next time someone says they use linux ima call the cops
[19:58] <duckinator> and, also needless to say, the most that happened was them getting fined for using 911 for non-emergency purposes...
[19:58] <LiENUS> whatd the police do?
[19:58] * alan_b (~alan@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:58] <LiENUS> oh lol
[19:58] <LiENUS> worth it
[19:58] <LiENUS> totally
[19:58] <duckinator> lol
[19:58] * alan_b (~alan@ Quit (Client Quit)
[19:58] <duckinator> LiENUS: the sad part is the dude thought he was totally doing the right thing :|
[19:58] <LiENUS> no
[19:58] <LiENUS> the sad part would have been if he didnt get fined
[19:59] <LiENUS> or worse
[19:59] <duckinator> true
[19:59] * alan_b (~alan@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:59] <LiENUS> if the police actually arrested you
[19:59] <LiENUS> but if he hadnt gotten fined that alone would have been bad enough
[19:59] <xlq> Lol, wonder what would've happened if you said you used HP-UX!
[19:59] <duckinator> yea
[19:59] <LiENUS> i kinda wanna do that now here
[19:59] <LiENUS> to see if the police are smart enough to fine me
[20:00] <duckinator> careful, or they might pull out their ZOOM ZOOM ENHANCE or similar on your ass D;
[20:00] <LiENUS> lol
[20:02] * duckinator wanders off to play Portal 2
[20:02] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:03] <LiENUS> h8 chu
[20:03] <azalyn> LiENUS: just don't let them see your ~/.horsepr0n/ directory.
[20:03] <LiENUS> my computer cant handle portal one much less two
[20:03] <LiENUS> azalyn, i run windows xp lol
[20:04] <cryptix> if somebody fluent in javascript is as excited about the beta board auctions as me, id love to see some help with this little ploting side i set up: http://lima204.server4you.de:8080/
[20:04] <LiENUS> i wanna use a usb frame grabber when i get a rpi
[20:04] <LiENUS> and use it as an instant ipcam device
[20:05] <LiENUS> im running all of our new cams over twisted pair with baluns
[20:05] <LiENUS> then when i get a rpi set up poe and convert them to ethernet
[20:05] <azalyn> LiENUS: i think calling it "linux" might be a small part of the problem, but not completely. like i said, the main issue i think is people's expectations are based on their experience with windows.
[20:05] <azalyn> and other proprietary products.
[20:06] <azalyn> like for example, on linux you don't need to hunt down software on cnet or some other random sites... you have the repository with nearly everything you'll ever need, right at your fingertips
[20:06] <LiENUS> linux is used in plenty of propriatary products
[20:06] * alan_b (~alan@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[20:06] <azalyn> but someone who doesn't know about that.. will try to google for software
[20:06] <piofcube> I think I have a copy of OS2 Warp 3.0 somewhere
[20:06] <azalyn> and then not understand why it's asking them to compile from source
[20:06] <azalyn> and will be confused as hell
[20:07] <duckinator> azalyn: yea that's probably at least part of it
[20:07] <azalyn> linux is easier in many ways, but you have to understand how stuff works.
[20:07] <duckinator> LiENUS: what are your specs? i'm managing to play Portal 2 in WINE of all things
[20:07] <LiENUS> 1.4ghz iirc
[20:07] <LiENUS> dual core
[20:07] <LiENUS> 1gb ram
[20:07] <LiENUS> some shitty intel gfx
[20:07] <duckinator> oh, bahaha. RAM would probably be your biggest issue
[20:08] <duckinator> DDR1, 2, or 3?
[20:08] <duckinator> DDR3 is cheap as hell now
[20:08] <azalyn> another problem is drivers, with linux, if it's not in the kernel, it's not supported yet. but some people might go looking for drivers, then try to install them, only to just end up breaking everything.. you're *not* supposed to do that..
[20:08] <LiENUS> 2 i think
[20:08] <azalyn> wine is very sophisticated these days.
[20:08] <duckinator> azalyn: i've never actually ran into something that was entirely unsupported, but i may just be weird
[20:08] <LiENUS> ima just buy 3 gigs of ddr3
[20:09] <LiENUS> and cut off a gig of it
[20:09] <LiENUS> then it'll fit
[20:09] <LiENUS> right?
[20:09] <duckinator> LiENUS: of course
[20:09] * barr5790 (~alan@ has joined #raspberrypi
[20:09] <duckinator> LiENUS: assuming you don't want anything to work, that is
[20:09] <azalyn> duckinator: wifi used to be bad.
[20:09] <LiENUS> why would i want things to work?
[20:10] <azalyn> GPUs are... difficult. the linux video stack is in the process of being completely obliterated and replaced with new stuff...
[20:10] <azalyn> so things right now are a bit hectic.
[20:10] <duckinator> azalyn: ah, yea, it was. i got lucky with those and it was mostly just silly defaults when i installed archlinux on my old laptop
[20:10] <azalyn> not sure if you heard, but we're finally getting rid of X11 soon.
[20:10] <azalyn> there's this new thing called wayland
[20:10] <azalyn> which will replace X.
[20:10] <duckinator> yea i've messed with it a bit. are people actually switching to that? :D
[20:11] <duckinator> also, i was surprised this little cheap ATi/AMD card actually worked. picked it up for $40 on newegg and it worked with both catalyst and xf86-video-ati without any non-flash-related issues (flash explodes everywhere though, so it's hard to pin down what caused those...)
[20:13] <azalyn> ati/radeon is the best option these days for out-of-the-box support.
[20:13] <azalyn> because AMD has been opening their documentation, since 2008 or so.
[20:13] <duckinator> it was this little one, i believe: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150469
[20:13] <azalyn> and the community has been writing opensource drivers for radeon cards
[20:13] <azalyn> amd is the only company that is providing full docs i believe.
[20:13] <azalyn> intel instead provides a mix of code snippets and developer help i think... no docs.
[20:14] <duckinator> azalyn: and that shows! i found xf86-video-ati to work far better than catalyst
[20:14] <azalyn> stability/security/etc wise, it's better. and even 2d performance exceeds the proprietary ati drivers.
[20:14] <azalyn> but 3d performance is going to take time.
[20:14] <duckinator> whereas even my old 8400GS had bizarre graphics-related bugs...i'd have expected *THAT* to be well supported
[20:14] <azalyn> for now the proprietary drivers still have better performance, and likely will keep having better performance for awhile more..
[20:14] <duckinator> (of course, that could've just been its fan breaking sooner than i thought it broke...)
[20:15] <LiENUS> aww bout to shut down my bnc :(
[20:15] <azalyn> nvidia opensource efforts are reverse-engineered.
[20:15] <azalyn> nvidia provides zero help to the developers.
[20:15] <azalyn> nvidia only has proprietary driver support.
[20:16] <duckinator> LiENUS: btw, if you're in the US and have ~$350 you can get a pretty decent mostly-AMD/ATi system
[20:16] <azalyn> duckinator: the fan could be the problem.. that happened to me too.. on my 7900GS. fan failed.. overheated.. and stuff desoldered i think..
[20:16] <LiENUS> i have a 1.5 year old daughter and am in college lol
[20:16] <LiENUS> i aint got 350$
[20:16] <LiENUS> i have 1500 in debt tho
[20:16] <duckinator> well that's no good :D
[20:17] <LiENUS> swhy im looking forward to the rpi so much lol
[20:18] <azalyn> it's a shame that the raspberry pi will have a proprietary driver for the GPU.
[20:18] <azalyn> but i suppose that can't be avoided.
[20:18] <duckinator> azalyn: my 8400GS still works. it reached 147C(!) and still worked, aside from a few patches of wrong-colored pixels....but i'm sure you can see why i stopped using it ;P
[20:18] <Stskeeps> it's one of the less evil ones, tbh
[20:18] <azalyn> AMD is the only company right now doing full specs.
[20:18] <Stskeeps> libGLESv2/EGL closed, open kernel module, no xorg module that can be closed source
[20:18] <duckinator> besides, this little ATi/AMD card outperforms it many times over
[20:18] <azalyn> and an amd fusion chip would likely cost an order of magnitude more than the broadcom chip.
[20:19] <duckinator> i think the Pi's GPU will end up being reverse engineered eventually
[20:19] <duckinator> if they can at least give us nice APIs for it, i'll be happy
[20:19] <azalyn> well, maybe......
[20:19] <azalyn> the 2D stuff will probably be done pretty easily.
[20:19] <duckinator> nice APIs for anything that needs some sort of API because i remember them mentioning that but i know nothing about GPUs*
[20:19] <azalyn> or rather, everything except 3D will likely be reverse engineered fairly quickly i expect.
[20:20] <azalyn> but 3D will take... a long ass time.
[20:20] <azalyn> duckinator: a 3D driver is about as complicated as the whole linux kernel.
[20:20] <azalyn> it's not for the faint of heart.
[20:20] <duckinator> azalyn: oh i'm sure :D
[20:20] <azalyn> it's not impossible, but it certainly takes doing.
[20:20] <LiENUS> im not planning on using it for gaming
[20:20] <LiENUS> just a buncha futuristicy home automation schmit
[20:21] <azalyn> LiENUS: yeah but it's nice to have 3d accel.
[20:21] <LiENUS> i REALLY REALLY REALLY want to build a table pc
[20:21] <azalyn> at least for compiz
[20:21] <azalyn> and stuff
[20:21] <LiENUS> and use a raspi to power it
[20:21] <LiENUS> for my daughter to play on
[20:21] <azalyn> let her write her own drivers. ;)
[20:21] <duckinator> i plan on designing 3 open-hardware desktops, 1 open-hardware laptop, and a open-hardware cluster. got rough designs figured out for all of them already :)
[20:21] <azalyn> she could be the next linus torvalds.
[20:22] <duckinator> i just need to get some 3D CAD (or similar) software for linux that actually works...since i have no native Windows installs, and 123D won't work in WINE or VirtualBox
[20:22] * Maroni (~user@081-003-243-080.dyn.orange.at) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[20:22] <azalyn> some community people are working on reverse engineering powervr. so if r-pi had powervr it would probably get done eventually.. but alas..
[20:23] <azalyn> wine won't work on the raspi though.
[20:23] <azalyn> since it's arm.
[20:23] <azalyn> linux's graphics stack is getting pretty badass now.
[20:24] <duckinator> azalyn: isn't there some ARM fork of wine, but only able to run Windows ARM executables?
[20:24] <azalyn> with GEM/TTM, KMS, DRI2, Gallium3D.
[20:24] <azalyn> and soon, wayland will replace X11.
[20:24] <traeak> hmm
[20:24] <traeak> hvaen'gt reviewed wayland enough yet
[20:24] <traeak> hopefully its leaner
[20:24] <traeak> and simpler
[20:24] <duckinator> isn't Gallium3D that thing that lets drivers work on any OS supporting that standard?
[20:24] <piofcube> Well that's interesting... The Mini-ITX motherboards I got came with some USB addon cards... these cards have ARM7 chips along with darlington arrays and 8bit latches and also a serial supervisor/RTC chip. Just got round to having a look now LOL
[20:25] <duckinator> piofcube: sounds like you're in for a lot of fun
[20:25] * RobinJ (robinj@unaffiliated/robinj) Quit (Excess Flood)
[20:25] <piofcube> heheh
[20:25] <azalyn> traeak: it's *very* simpler... it doesn't even do rendering. it's just a set of libraries. it's basically like a canvas. the window manager becomes the display server, by using the wayland libraries and the wayland protocol.
[20:25] <azalyn> and rendering is just handled by the clients.
[20:26] <traeak> and we just require network transparency
[20:26] <traeak> i do all my development work remote
[20:26] <azalyn> when i first heard of wayland i was resistant to change, as usual... but after looking it up, it's pretty neat.
[20:26] <duckinator> azalyn: same
[20:27] * Maroni (~user@091-141-074-070.dyn.orange.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:27] <duckinator> ah ha! found that little message hiding in dmesg... "[ 4.850175] SP5100 TCO timer: mmio address 0xfec000f0 already in use"...now to figure out what the hell it means
[20:27] <azalyn> well, wayland's protocol isn't network transparent, but that's not a bad thing, because it's actually out of the scope of wayland's functionality. since as i said, wayland is a set of libraries, the display *server* is actually the window manager.
[20:27] <azalyn> and it uses a standard protocol (wayland protocol)
[20:27] * barr5790 (~alan@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[20:27] <traeak> sure, so stuff should be built on top
[20:28] <traeak> haven't looked into that lately
[20:28] <LiENUS> duckinator, i thin the raspi would be awesome in a microsoft surface style setup
[20:28] <azalyn> yeah. so the window manager could in theory have the protocol for remote applications.
[20:28] <azalyn> or you could use stuff like vnc.. although that isn't as elegant of course as X11.
[20:28] <duckinator> LiENUS: there's tons of things the pi would be awesome as part of :P
[20:28] <traeak> vnc doesn't behave very seamlessly
[20:29] <azalyn> yeah, vnc is essentially just streaming your desktop..
[20:29] <traeak> and a minority report type interface would kill MS surface any day :-p
[20:29] * RobinJ (robinj@unaffiliated/robinj) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:29] <azalyn> i guess it just falls to freedesktop guys to come up with a standard protocol that mimics the way that X11 works over the network.
[20:29] <traeak> the problem is that the interface management would likely suck all the resources
[20:30] <traeak> yeah, can't say about that. an x11 layer will exist for a long while
[20:30] <azalyn> yeah, it's actually not a layer though. it's a full X server that would run as a wayland client.
[20:30] <azalyn> for backwards-compat
[20:30] <traeak> i'm just a touch pissed off that the Qt guys destroyed remote X11 behavior then go on to blame the X11 protocol for the problems they introduced
[20:31] <azalyn> traeak: hm, do you have a link about that? i haven't heard of this.
[20:31] <traeak> when it seems the running fltk applications remotely performs better than running their Qt equilvalents locally
[20:31] <azalyn> i've only ever tried to use GTK apps over the network.
[20:31] <traeak> gtk suffers also somewhat
[20:31] <azalyn> it was slow for me though.. over ssh.
[20:31] <azalyn> i wanted to try nomachines nx.
[20:31] <traeak> qt3 ran fine, qt4 got massively chatty between client and server
[20:31] <azalyn> but i never got around to it.
[20:32] <LiENUS> welp off to go nap my babby
[20:32] <traeak> azalyn: ugh, time to go digging again for where i started seeing those claims
[20:32] <azalyn> traeak: perhaps it would be possible to do something like vnc, only per-application.. like you stream just the GUI of that app, and then paint it on the remote desktop.
[20:33] <azalyn> it would look and work just like x11 remote. only it would be different under the hood.
[20:33] <traeak> azalyn: would be nice....i saw something a while back that wrapped several different protocols, tried to do remote display cross platform wise
[20:34] <duckinator> azalyn: should be possible -- if you never resize the app it can be done using plain old VNC, so i imagine with a bit of trickery it could be done with resizing working
[20:34] <traeak> azalyn: i also know remote terminal tanks with qt as well...rdesktop doesn't but taht works like vnc
[20:34] <azalyn> and you could implement compression as a result.. and only update areas of the app interface that have changed.. so for irc for example, only the text buffer would have to repaint.
[20:34] <azalyn> duckinator: yeah, the problem with vnc is it has no knowledge of X11 windows i believe.
[20:35] <azalyn> so it can't see them. it just sees the whole desktop
[20:35] <traeak> i just know now with Qt running remotely (with our CAD type applications) rendering stuff saturates gigabit networks for several seconds each redraw
[20:35] <azalyn> but if you built this protocol into the window manager (which is now the display server and the compositor in wayland)
[20:35] <azalyn> then you could do it.
[20:35] <duckinator> yea
[20:35] <azalyn> since the window manager already is managing windows, it understands resizing, etc.
[20:36] <azalyn> so it can draw only the application.
[20:36] <traeak> sure...i think when they fully implement/emulate the X11 protocol then wayland is ready to go live
[20:36] <traeak> even if they just provide a library to do it (reference implemenation)
[20:36] <azalyn> they aren't really implementing X. they are just running the same old X server. only it's running as a wayland client.
[20:37] <azalyn> for gtk/qt/etc apps, X will not be used..
[20:37] <azalyn> but then when you run something that needs it, like maybe a game with GLX.
[20:37] <azalyn> then it just loads up the X server as a wayland client
[20:37] <azalyn> and runs the app
[20:37] <traeak> sure
[20:38] <duckinator> azalyn: interestingly, that *also* helps with one of the main issues i've had with Xorg: when things break, they sometimes take over half the desktop forever
[20:38] <azalyn> they said at first it will be like xnest. but eventually the x11 apps will be able to sit on your desktop like normal.
[20:39] <azalyn> duckinator: half the desktop?
[20:40] <duckinator> azalyn: for some reason Xorg never redraws it if things die in a certain manner, never been able to find any reason for it, and it seems to happen with random programs (almost always games)
[20:40] <azalyn> hm, i dunno.
[20:40] <azalyn> i haven't seen that.
[20:40] <azalyn> although i have seen strange issues with games of course.
[20:41] <azalyn> but never that specific one.
[20:41] <duckinator> it's become far less common recently, but it still happens off and on
[20:41] <duckinator> so i guess they know about it, or it just happened to be partially fixed by fixing other things :P
[20:42] <azalyn> games are known to misbehave. ideally the system should always restore your desktop state and so on when an app crashes.
[20:42] <azalyn> like resolution and what not
[20:42] <azalyn> but it doesn't always seem to happen
[20:42] <azalyn> i'm hoping wayland will fix some of those woes.
[20:43] <azalyn> http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html
[20:43] <azalyn> this is a pretty good read, duckinator.
[20:43] <azalyn> you might like it.
[20:43] <azalyn> they also explain some of the issues with X11
[20:48] <duckinator> huh
[20:48] <duckinator> azalyn: the idea of being able to share a window on-the-fly with someone else could prove rather awesome
[20:48] <azalyn> yeah
[20:49] <duckinator> especially if you get the choice of making it view-only or letting them interact with it
[20:50] <traeak> i can't remember what the name of that program was
[20:50] <traeak> it wrapped like 7 different protocols
[20:50] <traeak> there's some x11 program that alows you to push around x11 windows
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[21:19] <ahven> bah, nobody wnats to bid over ??2100 :P
[21:19] <ahven> wants even
[21:20] <traeak> heh
[21:20] <traeak> that's a lot of money when you can just wait and get one for ~L20 or whatever
[21:20] <traeak> :-p
[21:23] <wwalker> X11 isn't too bad since it was designed in like 1985...
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[21:31] <wwalker> traeak: xmove? xpra?
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[21:32] <wwalker> looks like they have enough money to cover 600 model Bs
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[21:39] <chris_99> lets hope they don't decide to auction the first 10,000 ;)
[21:40] * datagutt is now known as TheMayne
[21:40] * TheMayne is now known as datagutt
[21:42] <wwalker> chris_99: :)
[21:42] <wwalker> They could do a dutch auction...
[21:43] <chris_99> thats where the lowest unique price wins right?
[21:45] <wwalker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_auction#A_second_item_auction
[21:46] <wwalker> apparently "dutch auction" is a misnomer eBay uses for a "second item auction"
[21:46] <wwalker> chris_99: highest bidders get how many they bid on, at the price that the lowest _winning_ buyer bid,
[21:47] <chris_99> ah yeah i get how it works now
[21:48] <azalyn> hm, the board they fixed in the recently uploaded video is apparently this one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180786867900
[21:48] <azalyn> it has the most bids out of any other..
[21:48] <azalyn> 62 bids.
[21:49] * vgrade (~martinbro@cpc2-nrte22-2-0-cust128.8-4.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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[21:59] <WASDx> people have been increasing the bids in really small steps on that one
[21:59] <WASDx> like ??56 to ??58 if you check the history
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[22:20] <azalyn> WASDx: some bidders may not have seen the video yet. or may not have read the post which actually mentions that it's the one in the video.
[22:20] <azalyn> long-term i would expect #3 to be worth more than #1 and #10
[22:20] <azalyn> just because it's the one featured in the video.
[22:21] <WASDx> I don't get that mentality :/ There is no difference other than you trust them saying that that specific board was on a video
[22:21] <azalyn> well, i'm not buying any of the betas, so whatever. ;P
[22:21] <azalyn> i'll probably wait until batch #2 of the retail ones.
[22:21] <WASDx> i'll probably have to do so too
[22:22] <WASDx> but i think i will get the first batch
[22:22] <WASDx> depends on luck
[22:22] <WASDx> i'm gonna try to order it asap
[22:22] <azalyn> eventually there will be more info about what the shipping costs and such will be to certain places.
[22:22] <azalyn> i'm in canada.
[22:22] <WASDx> sweden
[22:22] <azalyn> not sure how much it'll cost to ship here
[22:23] <WASDx> probably less since it's closer
[22:23] <azalyn> i figure by the time the second batch is out, there will be much more information.
[22:23] <WASDx> it was ??4 for a sticker...
[22:24] <mdavey> azalyn: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard#Shipping
[22:25] <WASDx> ??2 to the other side of the world? then why did it say ??4 for my sticker... maybe mixed it up
[22:27] <azalyn> hopefully arch linux arm will also have a port up and running fairly soon after launch.
[22:28] <WASDx> yeah, that's what i'm gonna use
[22:28] * vvvfjjuoghg likes arch so far
[22:28] <WASDx> If i get it a week after everyone else, the internet would be full of resources for me
[22:28] <vvvfjjuoghg> I just installed it yesterday on an old laptop.
[22:28] <WASDx> nice
[22:28] <WASDx> i love pacman
[22:28] <WASDx> and the arch wiki
[22:29] <vvvfjjuoghg> I've been an ubuntard and debianite for over half a decade
[22:29] <WASDx> me too. Well not a tard but that's what i've been using
[22:30] <WASDx> in a short time i knew more about pacman than what i've learn about apt-get in a year
[22:30] <ahven> I'm GMT +2 so I hope I can get my byte out of batch #1
[22:30] <WASDx> but that's not neccesarily because of pacman. It could have been that i simply decided to learn it
[22:31] <WASDx> I wonder how they will handle it. If they say a release date then everyone will sit at their computer refreshing their page :P
[22:32] <WASDx> so it will overload more than it already has
[22:34] <ahven> I hope they will send out the mail telling buy now!
[22:34] <mdavey> WASDx: it should be the same as the sticker. One price is parcel post, postage only, the other is letter post, P&P. Also letters to ROW are more expensive than small packets for some reason. Go figure.
[22:34] <ahven> not that day # will be the release day
[22:34] <vvvfjjuoghg> mdavey: ROW?
[22:34] <mdavey> rwst of the world
[22:34] <mdavey> *rest
[22:35] * wwalker hits reload on raspberrypi.org
[22:35] <wwalker> still no production units for sale :(
[22:36] <mdavey> http://c435158.r58.cf3.rackcdn.com/pricing_made_easy.pdf
[22:36] <WASDx> anyone know a good way to subscribe to rss stuff? Preferably something that uses libnotify
[22:37] <mdavey> wwalker: February.
[22:37] <mdavey> (or late Jan)
[22:37] <xlq> WASDx: What, a piece of software? A library?
[22:38] <WASDx> software
[22:38] <WASDx> libnotify is a library to send nice little popups
[22:38] <WASDx> and it would be nice if i could get that from rss updates
[22:39] <vvvfjjuoghg> mdavey: p&p is post and packing, right?
[22:39] <mdavey> yes
[22:39] <xlq> I think Akregator does notifications, but it's rather big.
[22:39] <vvvfjjuoghg> Also why does royal mail deliver the post whereas in the US postal service deliver the mail
[22:39] <xlq> vvvfjjuoghg: And ships carry cargo, cars carry shipment.
[22:40] <vvvfjjuoghg> I've carried cargo in my car but never shipment
[22:40] <WASDx> xlq: yeah looks big, and it's for KDE that i don't have
[22:40] <vvvfjjuoghg> And I think of ships as carrying shipment.
[22:40] <WASDx> Maybe i should create a software myself
[22:40] <mdavey> vvvfjjuoghg: xlq :D
[22:40] <Thorn_> royal mail dont deliver your post
[22:40] <Thorn_> they steal it
[22:41] <Thorn_> run by crooks and thieves
[22:41] <Thorn_> and i've met many of them to prove it!!
[22:41] <mdavey> Thorn_: now, you can't go around saying that about the Queen's service.
[22:41] <Thorn_> it hasn't been the queens service for a long time
[22:41] <Thorn_> :P
[22:41] <Thorn_> it was privatised
[22:41] <mdavey> She uses UPS?
[22:42] * NIN101 (~NIN101@2001:530::216:3cff:fe71:5e1e) Quit (Quit: NIN101)
[22:42] <vvvfjjuoghg> mdavey: This is not Thailand, l??se majest?? isn't punishable by Catherine wheel.
[22:43] <mdavey> You can still be beheaded thou. Or shot by longbow if you are a Scot in York.
[22:44] * mdavey isn't actually sure about either of those.
[22:45] <vvvfjjuoghg> Do they actually do that though?
[22:45] <Thorn_> oh all the time
[22:45] <ukscone> thought it was a welshman in chester after midnight in chester
[22:45] <Thorn_> britain is a savage place
[22:46] <ukscone> but you are allowed to kick Thorn_ in the butt anytime of the day
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[23:18] <traeak> lovely vs2010 is a broken compiler
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[23:18] <Samkov> got a question, after the first batch of (10000) boards are shipped when will the next batch be available. and just so I understand this correctly, the first batch are considered beta boards, correct?
[23:19] <Thorn_> the first batch arent beta boards afaik
[23:20] <Thorn_> and after the first batch it's continuous production
[23:20] <Samkov> ahh that I did not know that
[23:22] <Samkov> the 10 boards put on ebay were the beta boards then?
[23:22] <WASDx> Samkov yes
[23:22] <Samkov> gotcha :)
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[23:31] <mdavey> Samkov: The first batch will not be considered beta boards
[23:33] <mdavey> Once the Foundation has enough money for a further batch, they'll press the button. Worst case, that'll be when the first 10k are sold. But could be sooner depending on how much money the ebay auctions raise and how many people ordering from the first 10k do buy one gift one.
[23:34] <Thorn_> buy-one-gift-one is optional?
[23:34] <mdavey> It could be a few weeks before the second batch are in store, depending on suppliers.
[23:34] <mdavey> Thorn_: Yes
[23:34] <Thorn_> nice to know
[23:34] <Thorn_> because charity starts at home, not giving pi to some school :D
[23:35] <wwalker> the real challenge I've not heard about (but I'm not paying attention to the forums) will be getting enough qualified people to help the schools teach the kids
[23:35] <ahven> well, I have understood that it isn't optinal in the very start?
[23:36] <Thorn_> wwalker: there's a law in UK schools
[23:36] <mdavey> Well that's the current and longer-term plan. I guess that the Foundation might be thinking about making it compulsary for a very limited time.
[23:36] <ahven> limit 1 per order and it is buy-one-give-one
[23:36] <Thorn_> well, in the UK education sector
[23:36] <Thorn_> * All teaching stuff must be unqualified and clueless
[23:36] <mdavey> ahven: I hadn't heard that, but it makes sense as it really helps to prime the pump early on.
[23:37] <Thorn_> dont they want rid of them fast anyway? so they can start the next batch
[23:37] <Thorn_> i agree with the only-1 limit
[23:37] <Thorn_> but buy-one-give-one is silly, it restricts the first batch to better-off people
[23:37] <wwalker> if it were me, I'd accept either type of order, but the buy-one-gift-one orders would get precedence. If there were more than 10K ordered, the bogo orders would go out first, then the "just for me" orders sorted by request time until supply is depleted.
[23:37] <Thorn_> and stops some kid who saved up with his pocket money from buying one
[23:38] <mdavey> Thorn_: Think of it this way, if everyone did buy one gift one, the Foundation could order 20k as the second batch instead of 10k.
[23:38] <Thorn_> that makes no sense
[23:39] <wwalker> Thorn_: my statement or mdavey's statement?
[23:39] <Thorn_> i thought the "gifted" one was for the charity to go into education? i'm sure Liz said that somewhere
[23:39] <wwalker> Thorn_: I would _assume_ that the L22 unit doesn't cost a full L22.
[23:40] <mdavey> They don't have to gift the other one immediately. They can use the money to order a further 10k that, if they don't sell, get gifted and if they do sell, the money can be used to order the 10k to gift.
[23:40] <wwalker> so the more are ordered the more "profit" there is to subsidize the expenses of the next batch
[23:40] <wwalker> ah, or that....
[23:40] <Thorn_> hmm
[23:41] <ahven> profit = free resources for next batches :P
[23:41] <Thorn_> fair enough
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[23:47] <wwalker> they should definitely sell at a small profit to fund the charity side, and encouraging excessive profit from those of us that can afford it in exchange for bertter chance of receiving one of the first 10K units :)
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