#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2012-01-13

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[0:43] <chris_99> off-topic but amazing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy3SuhEQHVg&feature=related
[0:44] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:44] <PiBot> IT_Sean| As long as the invisible man didn't leave invisible skidmarks on the photocopier, i don't really care.
[0:47] <UnderSampled> filmed sideways
[0:49] <UnderSampled> where are the camera men?
[0:50] <chris_99> no idea, it just epically fast though too
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[3:44] * EiNSTeiN_ (~einstein@unaffiliated/einstein/x-615171) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:45] <EiNSTeiN_> hello people!
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[3:49] <tntexplosivesltd> 0_0
[3:49] <tntexplosivesltd> hi!
[3:54] <EiNSTeiN_> I made this today, i'm looking for anyone who can comment on the design :) http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/projects-and-collaboration-general/first-design-for-an-hdmi-to-lvds-adapter
[3:54] * Laogeodritt (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:56] <tntexplosivesltd> that has already been talked about, MystX and I are bringing up 5 boards
[3:56] <tntexplosivesltd> using a different board/schematic
[3:56] <tntexplosivesltd> can you post a pic of the board layout?
[3:56] <EiNSTeiN_> do you have a link?
[3:56] <tntexplosivesltd> hang on
[3:57] <EiNSTeiN_> sure, just a sec
[3:57] <tntexplosivesltd> I can't open your brd/sch files =( what software is needed?
[3:57] <EiNSTeiN_> Eagle
[3:57] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm
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[4:01] <tntexplosivesltd> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/features-and-requests/lvds-interface/page-2
[4:01] <tntexplosivesltd> on page 4 there is a nice pic of the board we are soldering atm
[4:02] <EiNSTeiN_> http://files.g3nius.org/D44BT
[4:02] * Shy (Shy@pdpc/supporter/professional/shy) Quit ()
[4:02] <tntexplosivesltd> EiNSTeiN_: it is DVI to LVDS, but DVI and HDMI both use TDMS so a change of connectors is all that is required
[4:03] <tntexplosivesltd> EiNSTeiN_: you probably need an EEPROM chip for the EDID
[4:03] <tntexplosivesltd> so the monitor can use different resolutions
[4:04] <EiNSTeiN_> there is an onboard eded eeprom on the ADV7611
[4:04] <tntexplosivesltd> ADV7611?
[4:04] <EiNSTeiN_> the chip on my board
[4:04] <tntexplosivesltd> -.-;
[4:04] <tntexplosivesltd> go on...
[4:04] <tntexplosivesltd> what does it do
[4:05] <tntexplosivesltd> (any datasheet is taking ages to load =( )
[4:05] <EiNSTeiN_> the ADV7611 does the transition from hdmi to 3x8bit
[4:06] <EiNSTeiN_> and then there's a TI chip that transforms that into LVDS
[4:06] <tntexplosivesltd> interesting
[4:07] <tntexplosivesltd> the design we are using does TDMS -> TTL, then TTL -> LVDS
[4:07] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: take a look at this
[4:07] <EiNSTeiN_> altough for the EDID, I believe hooking up the LCD panel's EDID line would be more appropriate than connecting the ADV7611's on-chip EDID because then I wouldn't need to do any programming (hopefully)
[4:08] <tntexplosivesltd> I see
[4:08] <tntexplosivesltd> then you need that part of the LCD controller board =(
[4:08] <tntexplosivesltd> if it's small though
[4:09] <EiNSTeiN_> well ... usually there are test pads on the back of the LCD panel where the LVDS and EDID lines are available
[4:10] <tntexplosivesltd> but the LCD panel needs an EEPROM chip
[4:10] <tntexplosivesltd> it's not built-in
[4:10] <tntexplosivesltd> it's on the LCD's stock controller board iirc
[4:10] <EiNSTeiN_> well I have at least one here which has an onboard EDID eeprom
[4:10] <EiNSTeiN_> it's an lcd panel from a laptop
[4:10] <tntexplosivesltd> interesting
[4:11] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca56ab.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[4:11] <EiNSTeiN_> I haven't looked at all of them, but I have a bunch so I will confirm tomorrow...
[4:12] <EiNSTeiN_> http://g3nius.org/lcd-controller/SDC10739.JPG
[4:12] <EiNSTeiN_> you can't really see on this pic
[4:12] <EiNSTeiN_> but some of these test pads are for the EDID eeprom
[4:13] <EiNSTeiN_> ha, here we go: http://g3nius.org/lcd-controller/SDC10738.JPG
[4:14] <tntexplosivesltd> are those power connectors for power in, or out?
[4:14] <tntexplosivesltd> on the board
[4:14] <tntexplosivesltd> you designed
[4:14] <EiNSTeiN_> test points
[4:14] <tntexplosivesltd> so where's the power supply?
[4:15] <EiNSTeiN_> I use the 5v from the hdmi connector and transform it into 3.3v and 1.8v for the ICs
[4:15] <EiNSTeiN_> there's a dual LDO next to the test points
[4:15] <tntexplosivesltd> where are the regulators?
[4:15] <tntexplosivesltd> OH
[4:15] <tntexplosivesltd> I see
[4:15] <tntexplosivesltd> also that LCD panel has a controller board on it
[4:16] <EiNSTeiN_> I think I made the footprint too small thought I'll have to verify that :p
[4:16] <tntexplosivesltd> I thought you were gonna use just the LCD panel by itself, no controller board
[4:17] <EiNSTeiN_> if you use a panel from a laptop, it will probably have a controller anyway :)
[4:17] <tntexplosivesltd> if you want to use it
[4:18] <tntexplosivesltd> that means you have to salvage one
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> if you want to, for example, buy a new OLED replacement screen to use, you need one woth the controller bpard
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> * board
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> would be interesting to bring both these designs up and see how theu work
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> * they
[4:20] <EiNSTeiN_> the chip you are using is very interesting, much cheaper than the one I'm using
[4:20] <tntexplosivesltd> hehe lol
[4:21] <EiNSTeiN_> and it does essentially the same job ..
[4:21] <tntexplosivesltd> yea lol
[4:21] <tntexplosivesltd> and has the eeprom on-board XD
[4:21] <tntexplosivesltd> Whoever designed it is awesome
[4:22] <EiNSTeiN_> I don't see a CEC interface though
[4:22] <tntexplosivesltd> CEC?
[4:22] * atts (~asheehan@146-115-165-244.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:22] <EiNSTeiN_> Consumer Electronic Control Channel.
[4:23] <EiNSTeiN_> it's one of the pin on the HDMI connector so I assume it does something important :p
[4:23] <Thorn_> Complicated E-diotic conglaboration (of words)
[4:23] <tntexplosivesltd> well it's HDMI-specific
[4:24] <tntexplosivesltd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#CEC
[4:24] <tntexplosivesltd> so DVI doesn't have it
[4:24] <EiNSTeiN_> I'll check if it's mandatory and what happens when it's not connected
[4:24] <tntexplosivesltd> (which is more what the board we are making is for)
[4:24] <EiNSTeiN_> oh it's for the remote ...
[4:25] <tntexplosivesltd> yea lol
[4:25] <tntexplosivesltd> not too important
[4:26] <tntexplosivesltd> what size are your capacitor footprints?
[4:26] <EiNSTeiN_> 0603
[4:26] <EiNSTeiN_> you said there was an on-chip EDID on the TFP401? I don't see it mentionned in the datasheet
[4:27] <Thorn_> bigger than bigfoot
[4:27] <EiNSTeiN_> EDID eeprom sorry
[4:27] * hamitron (~hamitron@just.screw-the.eu) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[4:27] <MystX> anyone know what the average ccfl lcd draws currentwise?
[4:27] <tntexplosivesltd> look like 0603
[4:28] <Thorn_> MystX: they generally draw images
[4:28] <MystX> (at 5v)
[4:28] <MystX> haha
[4:28] <tntexplosivesltd> EiNSTeiN_: there's no on-board, it's a seperate component
[4:29] <tntexplosivesltd> so it's on the PCB
[4:29] <tntexplosivesltd> but not the chip XD
[4:29] <EiNSTeiN_> hmm so the tfp401 is 11$, it's only a 4$ difference and you need an external eeprom too ...
[4:30] <tntexplosivesltd> Or free if you go to a huge company and ask for a sample XD
[4:30] <MystX> yep
[4:30] <MystX> yay TI samples
[4:30] <EiNSTeiN_> yeah, that's one advantage of TI over analog devices
[4:30] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[4:31] <tntexplosivesltd> they don't do samples?
[4:31] <tntexplosivesltd> =(
[4:31] <EiNSTeiN_> not that I could see, not for that chip anyway
[4:31] <EiNSTeiN_> I may simply need an account, not sure ...
[4:32] * djerome (~djerome@ip24-251-139-203.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:33] <tntexplosivesltd> EiNSTeiN_: would you be able to measure the current draw of that LCD panel, assuming it still works?
[4:33] <EiNSTeiN_> the backlight, or just the panel?
[4:33] <tntexplosivesltd> both together
[4:33] <tntexplosivesltd> total draw
[4:33] <tntexplosivesltd> ty =)
[4:34] <tntexplosivesltd> is it a CCFL backlight, or LED?
[4:34] <EiNSTeiN_> the backlight is huge, it needs a separate 12v power supply
[4:34] <MystX> 0.o
[4:34] <tntexplosivesltd> just the LCD then
[4:34] <MystX> lol
[4:34] <EiNSTeiN_> oops I don't have my multimeter here :|
[4:34] <tntexplosivesltd> CCFL is apparently 5mA
[4:34] <tntexplosivesltd> =(
[4:35] <tntexplosivesltd> oh well
[4:36] <f^x> EiNSTeiN_: CEC is just an implementation of av.link, a serial protocol that lets AV devices control one another. you can ignore it
[4:37] <f^x> otoh if you implemented an AV.link controller you could turn compliant monitors on and off from the system
[4:37] <f^x> but that's a lot of work for litte benefit, and monitors are not guaranteed to be compliant. it's optional.
[4:37] <EiNSTeiN_> yeah so that TI chip looks sweet if I can sample it
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[4:39] * relaxed_ is now known as relaxed
[4:40] <tntexplosivesltd> EiNSTeiN_: oh yeah we have 5 spare boards too XD
[4:40] <EiNSTeiN_> tntexplosivesltd: you plan on having a dvi connector and a dvi to hdmi adapter?
[4:40] <tntexplosivesltd> probably
[4:41] <tntexplosivesltd> probablymaybe a right-angle one with a straight connector on the board
[4:41] <tntexplosivesltd> so it could go around the R-Pi
[4:41] <tntexplosivesltd> lol we paid for 5 boards and they sent us 10
[4:41] <tntexplosivesltd> no idea why
[4:41] <tntexplosivesltd> batchpcb ftw
[4:41] <Thorn_> so they can sue you for the other 5 later
[4:42] <EiNSTeiN_> heh nice of them
[4:42] <tntexplosivesltd> Treybuchet: bastards >.<
[4:42] <tntexplosivesltd> whoops
[4:42] <tntexplosivesltd> fail
[4:42] <tntexplosivesltd> Thorn_: bastards >.<
[4:42] <tntexplosivesltd> tab-complete fail
[4:42] <MystX> na were not in the US =P
[4:43] * tradiuz (~boredbard@cpe-72-177-192-128.satx.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:43] <EiNSTeiN_> I'll redesign my board with the chip from yours :p
[4:44] <tntexplosivesltd> note that we didn't design it XD
[4:45] <EiNSTeiN_> I like the dvi connector better, and I don't need an edid eeprom, altough I could make it optionnal for those odd lcd panels that don't have one
[4:46] <tntexplosivesltd> and programming it is easy
[4:46] <tntexplosivesltd> the comp does it through the DVI connection =D
[4:46] <DoctorD> how raspbbery is doing ?
[4:47] <tntexplosivesltd> EiNSTeiN_: althought with HDMI it can be directly connected to the R-Pi
[4:47] <tntexplosivesltd> * although
[4:47] <EiNSTeiN_> hmm yes, I meant hdmi (the one on my board :p)
[4:47] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[4:47] <EiNSTeiN_> i'm always confused between those two.
[4:50] <tntexplosivesltd> well they're practically the same XD
[4:51] * DoctorD (~DoctorD@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[4:52] <EiNSTeiN_> nice chatting with you guys, gtg
[4:52] <tntexplosivesltd> cya man
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[7:20] <pygo> who wants pi?
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[7:21] <tntexplosivesltd> pygo: guess >.>
[7:22] <pygo> :D
[7:22] <pygo> I'm excited
[7:27] <tntexplosivesltd> that's the natural reaction
[7:29] <pygo> I wonderhow much longer we'll have to wait.
[7:29] <pygo> and I wonder how long shipping to the land of Canadia will take
[7:29] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm
[7:29] * jmichaelx (~james@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[7:44] * Behold is now known as BeholdMyGlory
[7:59] * billy2 (billy@sevn.org) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:59] <billy2> morning :)
[8:00] <tntexplosivesltd> evening
[8:00] * R` (~RHA@ip7.j-k.kund.riksnet.nu) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:25] * EiN_ (~einstein@75-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:28] * EiNSTeiN_ (~einstein@unaffiliated/einstein/x-615171) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[8:45] * barr5790 (~alan@cpc1-belf7-0-0-cust981.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:03] * izua (~izua@unaffiliated/izua) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:08] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[9:13] * helge (~helge@g230231012.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:14] <RaTTuS|BIG> morning
[9:15] <billy2> morning :)
[9:27] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-71-194-107-12.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:27] * barr5790 (~alan@cpc1-belf7-0-0-cust981.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[9:30] * Cracknel (~cracknel@unaffiliated/cracknel) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[9:31] * vexorg (~vexorg@h216-18-7-221.gtconnect.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[9:31] * Cracknel (~cracknel@unaffiliated/cracknel) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:31] * Laogeodritt (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[9:36] * vexorg (~vexorg@h216-18-7-221.gtconnect.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:41] * stev (stev@114-42-69-179.dynamic.hinet.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:42] * nr_ (~nr@ has joined #raspberrypi
[9:46] <ahven> hello
[9:46] <billy2> hi
[9:48] <stev> hi
[9:52] <helge> hi
[9:57] * pygo throws pis at everyone
[9:58] * billy2 runs
[9:58] <tntexplosivesltd> ...
[9:58] * nr_ realises that's the plural of pi, not what I first thought.
[9:59] <tntexplosivesltd> NO
[9:59] <tntexplosivesltd> NOT THE GREEK
[9:59] <billy2> i read it as pigs
[9:59] <billy2> :p
[9:59] <pygo> xD
[9:59] <tntexplosivesltd> same lol
[9:59] <pygo> lol
[9:59] <billy2> haha
[9:59] <billy2> ok phew
[9:59] <billy2> im not alone :)
[10:02] * MystX (~MystX@ has joined #raspberrypi
[10:03] <tntexplosivesltd> wb
[10:03] <MystX> Sup
[10:03] <MystX> Someone please entertain me, I live in a 3rd word country and my power went out
[10:03] <MystX> Prbly wont be back for a while
[10:03] * billy2 dances for pennies
[10:04] <MystX> =D
[10:04] <tntexplosivesltd> 3rd world my arse
[10:05] <MystX> It pretty much is
[10:05] * LiENUS (~whodat@ip68-11-254-175.br.br.cox.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[10:05] <tntexplosivesltd> We have power like 2km away
[10:05] <tntexplosivesltd> man up
[10:05] <MystX> That dosnt change the country's status
[10:05] <tntexplosivesltd> >.>
[10:06] <MystX> We should get invaded by someone who will change things around here
[10:06] * meltwater (22fd03c9@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[10:06] <MystX> Get us this broadband ive been hearing about
[10:06] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm yes
[10:07] <meltwater> hi everyone from the R-Pi forum! Thought I'd come and have a look around.
[10:07] <billy2> oh hai
[10:08] <billy2> we are playing tiddly winks
[10:08] <tntexplosivesltd> ah, seen you a bit
[10:08] <meltwater> good plan, although don't wanna scratch the lcd
[10:09] <meltwater> yep released I've been a little obsessive about the R-Pi, can't keep away
[10:10] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: guess what im adding to the site =D
[10:10] <pygo> 3rd world country? the US is quickly heading there it seems
[10:10] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: I have no idea
[10:10] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: its typically me
[10:11] <tntexplosivesltd> pygo: well, new zealand
[10:11] <pygo> ah
[10:11] <MystX> You have one guess
[10:11] <tntexplosivesltd> so not really 3rd word
[10:11] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: designey stuff
[10:11] <MystX> mysql
[10:11] <pygo> new zealand I've heard isn't bad
[10:11] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[10:11] <billy2> pygo: its NZ
[10:11] <billy2> its bad :p
[10:11] <tntexplosivesltd> pygo: no
[10:11] <billy2> too many sheep
[10:11] <tntexplosivesltd> nope
[10:11] * Guest98727 is now known as yang
[10:11] <billy2> NZ and wales go well together
[10:11] <pygo> haha
[10:11] <meltwater> NZ, what are the hobbits like? friendly?
[10:11] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[10:12] <pygo> sheep and gingers?
[10:12] <MystX> Lololol sheep everywhere derp
[10:12] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX's power is out
[10:12] <billy2> unfortunately iv been to NZ too many times :p
[10:12] <pygo> how does mystx have intertubes?
[10:12] <billy2> being so close
[10:12] <billy2> lol
[10:12] <tntexplosivesltd> lolol yeah I have several in my house herpa derp
[10:12] <tntexplosivesltd> pygo: I don't know, 3G?
[10:12] <tntexplosivesltd> pygo: I don't know, 3G??
[10:12] <billy2> least you guys joined the 2 RWC crew :p
[10:12] <tntexplosivesltd> (??????????????????? ?????????
[10:12] <billy2> took ya 30 years!
[10:13] <billy2> :)
[10:13] <pygo> ah
[10:13] <tntexplosivesltd> billy2: =D
[10:13] <billy2> troll troll troll
[10:13] <billy2> lol
[10:13] <billy2> couldnt help it
[10:13] <billy2> we shoulda been in the 3 RWC club
[10:13] <tntexplosivesltd> owel we dominated you
[10:13] <billy2> cept for stupid england! :p
[10:13] <MystX> yeah, 3g
[10:14] <billy2> i actually left australia quite a while ago, but i still support em :)
[10:14] <tntexplosivesltd> billy2: you fool
[10:14] <billy2> hehe
[10:14] <billy2> i moved to Canada then the UK
[10:15] <meltwater> must be dizzy with all that moving
[10:16] <billy2> not really :p
[10:16] <billy2> was in canada 3 years, i had enough time to spin the other way a few times
[10:16] <billy2> undizzy myself
[10:16] <billy2> lol
[10:16] <tntexplosivesltd> you miss christmas during the summer
[10:16] <tntexplosivesltd> it's awesome
[10:17] <billy2> ha
[10:17] <billy2> i dont mind either way
[10:17] <billy2> i dont like the hot
[10:17] <billy2> and im from queensland, too fuckin hot :p
[10:17] <billy2> too humid
[10:27] * mjorgensen (quassel@nat/nokia/x-errchobjrgufgmkk) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:28] * zag (526f17c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[10:28] * Chump_ (5755ff52@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[10:30] * evert (~evert@xvm-30-94.ghst.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:32] * EiNSTeiN_ (~einstein@unaffiliated/einstein/x-615171) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:33] * Jimf82 (Jimf82@5e0ab7b5.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:33] <MystX> 3g is so sloooooooow
[10:33] <Jimf82> hello peoples
[10:34] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: mine's all good, on HSDPA
[10:34] <Jimf82> 3g is terrible for me on Orange
[10:34] * EiN_ (~einstein@75-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[10:35] <Jimf82> i see some 4g stuff on the gadget show though, It was like 80mbits
[10:35] <tntexplosivesltd> heh we are working on some 4g backhaul at work
[10:36] <Jimf82> gunna make my broadband feel really really slow
[10:36] * Davespice (~david.hon@host213-123-203-206.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:36] <tntexplosivesltd> ooh yes
[10:36] <Davespice> good morning all
[10:36] <Jimf82> i remember spending about ??100 on a 56k modem, was state of the art lol
[10:37] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice: good evening
[10:37] * Davespice grins
[10:37] <Davespice> I'm in the UKK, where are you?
[10:37] <tntexplosivesltd> nz
[10:37] <tntexplosivesltd> so the opposite
[10:37] * GizmoB (5c14fe85@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[10:37] <Davespice> good evening then =)
[10:38] <Jimf82> im in the Uk (sussex)
[10:38] <evert> i'm wondering about the performance numbers of the rpi (and how it compares to x86)
[10:38] <evert> are there any numbers out there?
[10:40] <Jimf82> is there some benchmarks for the broadcom cpu?
[10:41] <meltwater> hi Davespice/Jim etc
[10:41] <Jimf82> hey :)
[10:41] <Davespice> I expect there must be, hi meltwater
[10:41] * Heppie (~Heppie@5ac92fc4.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:41] <Jimf82> I'm wondering how well Java will run on the Pi
[10:41] <meltwater> Jim: I think there were some mentioned in the forum, but not for the GPU as far as I know
[10:41] <Davespice> I know they've posted a video of it running Quake 3 - maximum graphics detail at 1920x1080
[10:41] <tntexplosivesltd> why?
[10:41] <tntexplosivesltd> why java?
[10:41] <tntexplosivesltd> it's.. ugh
[10:42] <Jimf82> i know the most java thats all.
[10:42] * domble (50b09220@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[10:42] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[10:42] <meltwater> It'll do java, how well I guess will have to suck it and see
[10:42] <Davespice> I'm sure Java supports arm
[10:42] <tntexplosivesltd> but will it eat all the pi's resources
[10:42] <Jimf82> Will make me start coding more efficient then hehe, Im going to look into assembly as well
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> ima say it will
[10:43] * Dienyddio (~Dienyddio@pdpc/supporter/active/dienyddio) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:43] * hopsy (20027@ninthfloor.org) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> w2ow everyone's joining
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> * wow
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> must be all the UK guys
[10:43] <meltwater> yeah post on the forum, it's out!
[10:44] <tntexplosivesltd> hmmm?
[10:44] <Davespice> meltwater, what is out?
[10:44] * CaptZero (~CaptZero@mobos-zen.penrillian.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:44] <meltwater> details on the irc sorry!!
[10:44] <Davespice> Christ!
[10:45] <Davespice> you made me panic! =)
[10:45] <meltwater> sorry sorry, didn't think!!
[10:45] * hopsy (20027@ninthfloor.org) has left #raspberrypi
[10:45] <Davespice> I just checked the front page and the shop haha whilst biting my lower lip
[10:45] <meltwater> could kill the site by saying things like that
[10:45] <Jimf82> Its crazy to think that the Raspberry will do quake 3 in 1080p when i remember spending loads on a pc about 12 years ago that would struggle on 800x600
[10:46] * Chump_ (5755ff52@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[10:46] <Davespice> indeed Jim
[10:46] <meltwater> The GPU is a beast it seems
[10:46] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:46] <Davespice> I remember the first 3dfx voodoo card costing about ??250
[10:46] <Jimf82> Its impressive
[10:46] * CaptZero (~CaptZero@mobos-zen.penrillian.com) Quit (Client Quit)
[10:46] <Jimf82> I wanted a voodoo2 card so bad
[10:46] <meltwater> 3dfx and carmageddon blood patched...couldn't get better
[10:46] <Davespice> yeah, I had two of those with the ribbon joining them together
[10:47] <Davespice> carmageddon, what a game...
[10:47] <Davespice> Cunning Stunt Bonus! =)
[10:47] <billy2> ha
[10:47] <billy2> it was epic :)
[10:47] <Jimf82> for me it was a choice between the voodoo and a n64, sadly the n64 won as i wanted Zelda and goldeneye
[10:47] <billy2> voodoo 2 sli
[10:47] <billy2> ftw
[10:47] <billy2> epic
[10:47] <Davespice> Dungeon Keeper was one of my favorites back then
[10:48] <billy2> oh man i loved that game too
[10:48] <billy2> and rise of the triad
[10:48] * myf (~myf@li245-175.members.linode.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:48] <Davespice> I have it still, works well through DosBox
[10:48] <Jimf82> seems long ago checking if your graphics card did 3d :)
[10:48] <billy2> shadow warrior
[10:48] <Davespice> woyyaaarr!
[10:48] <billy2> or not be able to load windows as you only had a 3d card :p
[10:48] <Jimf82> lol
[10:48] <meltwater> think may have to put a sd card aside for old games on the R-Pi
[10:48] <billy2> hehe
[10:48] <Davespice> you want to wash wang? or watch wang wash wang? or you want to watch wang wash wangs wang? =) haha another seminal game
[10:49] <billy2> hahaha
[10:49] <Jimf82> i like editing the Duke Nukem3d game, gives some funny results
[10:49] <billy2> i used to love multi player shadow warrior
[10:49] <billy2> sticky bombs
[10:49] <billy2> so much fun
[10:49] * M0GHY (~peterholl@ has joined #raspberrypi
[10:49] * M0GHY (~peterholl@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[10:49] * devyx (~devyx@ has joined #raspberrypi
[10:50] <Davespice> yeah, I actually thought Shadow Warrior was a better game than Duke 3D
[10:50] <Davespice> same software house, same game engine
[10:50] <billy2> yeah me too :)
[10:50] <billy2> i used to have fun playing both
[10:50] <billy2> but shadow warrior was just too much fun
[10:50] <Davespice> will there be a Shadow Warrior Forever though... THAT is the question =)
[10:50] <billy2> haha
[10:50] <Jimf82> I never had shadow warrior, I just got duke3d when i was like 13 and loved it
[10:50] <billy2> one can only hope
[10:50] <meltwater> maybe in 20 years
[10:50] <Jimf82> didnt play the new duke looked shocking
[10:51] <Davespice> well, Rock Star games made Duke Forever didn't they? which could mean that have rights to all the old 3D Realms games
[10:51] <tntexplosivesltd> was it rockstar?
[10:51] <Jimf82> wasnt it valve
[10:51] <tntexplosivesltd> no
[10:52] <Davespice> 2k games....
[10:52] <meltwater> it was sold loads of times, so probably went through most of the houses
[10:52] <Davespice> and gearbox software
[10:52] * M0GHY (~peterholl@ has joined #raspberrypi
[10:52] <Jimf82> yeh gearbox, i was closeish lol
[10:52] <tntexplosivesltd> 3D realms and Triptych
[10:52] <Jimf82> so if we are going to get an Acorn OS on the PI, Will it be possible to run AMiga software in the future etc Workbench :)
[10:52] <tntexplosivesltd> finished by gearbox XD
[10:52] <tntexplosivesltd> and piranah
[10:53] <Davespice> it wasn't a bad game actually, I enjoyed it - it was old school, no helpful game aids or anything - just point and shoot, use the cover, just like the old days
[10:53] <Davespice> *cough*not like call of duty modern tickling competition*cough*
[10:53] <Jimf82> i finished Half life 2 episode 1 yesterday, Really want ep2
[10:54] <tntexplosivesltd> you don't have it?????!?!!?!?!!??!
[10:54] <Jimf82> no :(
[10:54] <tntexplosivesltd> It's awesome!!!
[10:54] <Davespice> thats the one where you havethe fight all those walker's at the end isn't it?
[10:54] <Jimf82> i bet, I finished portal1 only last week and on last part of portal2
[10:54] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: mysql works =D
[10:54] <tntexplosivesltd> =O
[10:54] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: for doing what?
[10:54] <nr_> as long as I can play Oolite I'll be happy
[10:54] <MystX> Does anyone know how you could get usage stats out of a list of mysql dates?
[10:55] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: recording dates, image names, IPs atm
[10:55] <tntexplosivesltd> ah
[10:55] <Jimf82> im not good with mysql sorry
[10:55] * robde (~robde@pC19F77AE.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:56] * devyx (~devyx@ Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[10:56] <Jimf82> Ive not used Irc since about 1999 lol, I blame the raspberriPI for this.
[10:56] <Davespice> ah, I've just found there is a new downloadable campaign for Duke Forever coming soon
[10:56] <Davespice> The Doctor Who Cloned Me
[10:57] <meltwater> Jim, yeah me neither. The old days of online chat
[10:57] <tntexplosivesltd> irc is the best
[10:57] <billy2> aye
[10:57] <billy2> irc is win!
[10:57] <Jimf82> I love and hate Steam at the same time, but it really really anoys me that you can go to a shop and buy a game for nearly 50% of the price
[10:57] <billy2> steam stuff is cheap as?
[10:57] <Jimf82> And it must cost more for a physical copy
[10:58] <Jimf82> Sometimes/Sometimes not
[10:58] <tntexplosivesltd> steam is always cheaper
[10:58] <meltwater> you get sales in store to move stock
[10:58] <Jimf82> Skyrim was like 29.99 on play and 39.99 on steam etc
[10:58] <meltwater> not I've used steam much, perhaps On-Live will work on the R-pi
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> but it's also crap
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> it crashes all the time
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> oh gosd
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> * god
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> Origin
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> anyone use that?
[10:59] <Jimf82> I dont like skyrim much hehe, waste of money, same with star wars mmo paid 45 quid for it and its crap
[10:59] <meltwater> yeah I read they have backwards flying dragons...
[10:59] <Jimf82> yeh i got origin for Battlefield3
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> it is the worst
[11:00] <Jimf82> yeh
[11:00] <Davespice> last MMO I played was LOTRO, that ended up a total grindfest in the end +/
[11:01] <billy2> hehe
[11:01] <billy2> EQ was where it was at :p
[11:01] <Jimf82> you know a game will be crap when its titled "Better than Warcraft"
[11:01] <Jimf82> I loved everquest, played for ages
[11:01] <billy2> aye me too
[11:01] <billy2> eq was why i didnt get laid till i was 18
[11:01] <billy2> lol
[11:01] <Jimf82> lol
[11:01] <Jimf82> i made it till 20 without that Achivement
[11:01] <tntexplosivesltd> everyone has their reasons >.>
[11:01] <billy2> hehe
[11:02] <billy2> did you pick a second name at 20? :p
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> programming =(
[11:02] <billy2> see what i did thar!
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> that gets in the way
[11:02] <billy2> tntexplosivesltd: hehe
[11:02] <Jimf82> lol yeh programming books dont do it for the ladies
[11:02] <billy2> :p
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> or a stuffed android XD
[11:03] <Davespice> I know lots of people who thing Lotro was better than Warcraft, in many ways it was, but the problem was with the people who owned the servers
[11:04] <Jimf82> I think with Warcraft it did what it did well, you know?
[11:04] <ahven> as I heard the AI is still the same crap in Skyrim like elsewhere
[11:04] * stev (stev@114-42-69-179.dynamic.hinet.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[11:05] <ahven> you sneak behind someone with an axe and he/she just greets you merrily :P
[11:05] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[11:05] <ahven> AI doesn't care if you are pointing a knife towards it, doesn't take that into consideration
[11:06] <billy2> ahven: in skyrim they do
[11:06] <Jimf82> if (hand == knife) { Attack() } lol
[11:06] * someboy (~someboy@cpc24-bagu10-2-0-cust168.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:06] <Davespice> yeah, Wow did kind of passed me by though - I have a long term fondness of the Tolkien world though - and it was so great to actually go to and explore the places of the books
[11:06] <billy2> all elder scrolls games they dont like it when you have weapons out in public
[11:06] <billy2> im not saying AI in it is perfect
[11:07] <Jimf82> Its funny how a 700Mhz ARm chip doesnt need any Fans on it, I remember my 200Mhz Cyrix chip needed loads or it would be cooking
[11:07] <billy2> haha
[11:08] <billy2> not to meantion hdd's hot as hell :p
[11:08] <tntexplosivesltd> cmos ftw
[11:08] <tntexplosivesltd> TTL can stand aside
[11:08] <billy2> lol
[11:08] <Jimf82> But then my android phone has a 1ghz chip and it doesnt need cooling
[11:09] <tntexplosivesltd> Cmos has way lower compensation
[11:09] <haltdef> 600mhz armv6 in my android phone ????
[11:09] <tntexplosivesltd> * consumption
[11:09] <Jimf82> im awaiting icecreamsandwich on my phone like a nerd i check everyday
[11:10] <haltdef> yeah me too
[11:10] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't like the ui buttons
[11:10] <Jimf82> on ics?
[11:10] <haltdef> cyanogen will have them configurable no doubt
[11:10] <haltdef> my phone has clicky buttons so I might keep the soft ones
[11:11] <tntexplosivesltd> yea
[11:11] <Jimf82> i only used ICS on my android emulator, not really possible to make judgement with buttons on that
[11:11] <tntexplosivesltd> I like the clicky ones
[11:11] <tntexplosivesltd> don't need to be careful about pressing them
[11:11] <haltdef> tru
[11:11] <tntexplosivesltd> I need that part of by whone to hold it
[11:11] <tntexplosivesltd> * phone
[11:14] * nr_ (~nr@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[11:14] <Jimf82> i got a sky HD box to fix here, Keeps crashing when recording guess its the drive
[11:15] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[11:15] <haltdef> I only used a sky hd box so sky believe I'm using one
[11:15] <haltdef> card's in a dreambox
[11:16] <Jimf82> whats a dreambox
[11:16] <haltdef> satellite receivers not from sky
[11:16] <haltdef> run linux, recordings are unencrypted
[11:16] <tntexplosivesltd> I never got the idea of sky
[11:16] <Jimf82> nice
[11:16] <tntexplosivesltd> you pay for ads
[11:17] <Jimf82> i like sky although it is expensive now
[11:17] <tntexplosivesltd> and here the only thing worth watching is discovery
[11:18] <haltdef> sky1 are coming out with some decent comedies nowadays
[11:18] <Jimf82> i like sky atlantic, broadwalk empire was really good
[11:18] <haltdef> mine's a multiroom card that parents pay for, can't complain
[11:18] <haltdef> sky world hd with tons of sport I don't watch
[11:19] * Dienyddio (~Dienyddio@pdpc/supporter/active/dienyddio) has left #raspberrypi
[11:19] <haltdef> got some card sharing going on to dad's pc with a pci satellite tuner too :P
[11:20] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:20] <Jimf82> Im so glad they are changing ICT in schools, it was so boring for me at school and i loved computers
[11:20] <Jimf82> learning excel and word come on.
[11:20] <tntexplosivesltd> well changing for you
[11:20] * spikey (50471d41@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[11:21] <tntexplosivesltd> it was shit when I did it
[11:21] <haltdef> yeah, after a few lessons on excel and word you're pretty much set
[11:21] <haltdef> I did an a level in applied ict in college .. big mistake
[11:21] <Jimf82> saying that i remember the mini doom game in excel 95 we use to play
[11:21] <haltdef> failed it pretty spectacularly because I was so bored
[11:21] <haltdef> except the networking bit, got a C in that :P
[11:21] <Jimf82> i failed level2 Admin NVQ lol cause i got bored
[11:21] <haltdef> working for a comptia a+ now, supposed to be useful
[11:24] <Jimf82> I miss the old BBC micro computers at school & the Acorn A3000 or whatever
[11:25] <haltdef> I'm not old enough to know what those are
[11:25] <Jimf82> Think they was 80's and early 90s
[11:25] <haltdef> I was born in 1990 :P
[11:25] * Davespice too
[11:26] <Jimf82> ahh
[11:26] <Davespice> no I was born in 1977
[11:26] <Jimf82> 82 here
[11:26] <Davespice> I was sayign me too in response to "I'm not old enough to know what those are"
[11:26] <Davespice> confusing =)
[11:26] <tntexplosivesltd> heh just think
[11:26] <tntexplosivesltd> we are around for this computer
[11:26] <Davespice> My shcool had two BBC Micro B's
[11:27] <Davespice> never used the Acron though, that was a green screen one wasn't it?
[11:27] <Jimf82> it had some green keys or orange
[11:27] <haltdef> there was a win98 pc in every classroom at my primary school :P
[11:27] * rodrigo_golive (~quassel@ has joined #raspberrypi
[11:27] <Jimf82> I had an Amiga A500+ at home loved it, Learned basic on that
[11:28] <Jimf82> i say learned/ i think i mean copied lots of code onto it and changed some
[11:28] <gobby> lol, my education was over by 98
[11:28] <gobby> My first computer was a Dragon 32
[11:28] * gobby feels old now
[11:29] <Jimf82> i dont know that one :)
[11:29] <Jimf82> I had one of them rubber keyed spectrums first
[11:29] <RaTTuS|BIG> we had PET's none of those new fangled bbc's///
[11:29] <MystX> My first PC I payed for was a 1.6Ghz P4 =P
[11:29] <MystX> Dell, too
[11:29] <haltdef> the first computer of my own was an athlon xp 2400+, 512MB ram, 120GB hdd
[11:30] <Jimf82> my first pc was a 486 dx4
[11:30] <RaTTuS|BIG> my 1st HD cost me ??500 and was 50MB
[11:30] * br0tkasten (~slobo@www.br0tkasten.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:30] <gobby> The ZX
[11:30] <haltdef> I'm still using the first pc I bought :P
[11:30] <MystX> Then i started building PCs..
[11:30] <haltdef> i7 920 with 6GB ram, 120GB ssd and 3 500GB spinners
[11:30] <gobby> Mine was a 486 DX2 66
[11:30] <Jimf82> I did a job building PC's when i was at school, taught me alot
[11:31] <Jimf82> think my DX4 was like 75mhz or around that
[11:31] <haltdef> hm, I did have a PDA when I was 11, palmOS think
[11:31] <haltdef> 16mhz
[11:31] <haltdef> overclock it to 32mhz and it'd fly
[11:32] <tntexplosivesltd> hehehe PDAs
[11:32] <tntexplosivesltd> those kids were so up themselves
[11:32] <gobby> It's funny to think my phone is more powerful that lots of the computers I've owned
[11:32] <Jimf82> I think the same thing gobby my android is more powerful than my Main computer from 10 years ago easy
[11:32] <tntexplosivesltd> "look at me, I have rich parents"
[11:32] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[11:32] <haltdef> I was only ever after a pocketable computer with my PDAs .. none of them really did it for me
[11:33] <haltdef> palm zire 72 after that, then dell axim x50v, HTC universal, xperia x1 then viliv n5 - *that* has pleased me
[11:33] <haltdef> full blown win7
[11:33] <Jimf82> I like Windows7, I think its the first Windows ever that i actually like *
[11:34] <haltdef> almost forgot the n900, that came damn close and it's a shame maemo 5 is dead
[11:34] <haltdef> solid OS
[11:34] <tntexplosivesltd> it's not absolutely shit
[11:34] <tntexplosivesltd> win 7
[11:34] <Jimf82> i never had a problem with it at all
[11:34] <tntexplosivesltd> no, but it is windows
[11:34] <Jimf82> I mean it uses way to much Ram
[11:34] <tntexplosivesltd> I much prefer Arch linux
[11:34] <haltdef> it runs fine on my umpc with a gig of ram
[11:34] <haltdef> so did vista ????
[11:35] <Jimf82> 1gb on ram? my windows uses 1.5gb just to boot lol
[11:35] <Jimf82> i installed vista and removed it in the same day :)
[11:35] <haltdef> it does spread out if it can, if there's only 1GB it won't fill it up instantly
[11:35] <tntexplosivesltd> Jimf82: how much RAM was available?
[11:35] <haltdef> see I've always liked vista, never looked back when I installed the first release version
[11:36] <Jimf82> 4gb on this
[11:36] <tntexplosivesltd> Jimf82: it would have taken up a lot of that
[11:36] <tntexplosivesltd> it does that for some reason
[11:36] <haltdef> windows defaults to using almost all of it for caching
[11:36] <haltdef> since vista anyway
[11:36] <Jimf82> i used windows2000 for ages quite liked that
[11:37] <GizmoB> anyone know when the GPIO module will be released? I am thinking of using this as a replacement for all my Arduino's.
[11:37] <Jimf82> I used to like OS x but i dunno anymore seems a bit clunky to me
[11:37] <haltdef> I've never tried osx
[11:37] <haltdef> never will at those prices either
[11:37] <tntexplosivesltd> GizmoB: make your own XD
[11:38] <tntexplosivesltd> also the programming is way different
[11:38] <haltdef> an ever so slightly better macbook pro was one *grand* more than this dell XPS
[11:38] <tntexplosivesltd> that's why I don't like arduinos
[11:38] <haltdef> by slightly better I mean slightly higher clocked cpu and memory, slightly bigger hdd
[11:38] <haltdef> for a grand!
[11:38] <tntexplosivesltd> they take you so far away from proper programming
[11:39] <Jimf82> Everytime i walk past a starbucks it makes me laught that 95% of the people use Apples
[11:39] <Jimf82> i think its the law otherwise ur an outcast
[11:39] <tntexplosivesltd> heh yeah
[11:39] <tntexplosivesltd> damn hipsters
[11:39] <MystX> Jimf82: Didnt you know that steve jobs revolutionised the market?
[11:39] <Jimf82> :)
[11:40] <Jimf82> i has my 3rd gen Ipod still but the battery is brokes
[11:40] <MystX> You should show respect by paing inflated proces for poorly designed, outdated hardware
[11:40] <MystX> I rest my case
[11:40] <MystX> I dont think ive even met someone with an apple product that was working flawlessly at the time
[11:40] <gobby> My laptop has 16GB ram in it
[11:41] <Jimf82> Id like an imac i must say, But when i look at specs and see how much i could make a pc for i change my mind
[11:41] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[11:41] <tntexplosivesltd> gobby: for what?
[11:41] <gobby> and it's running Gentoo so at least it's capable of using it efficiently
[11:41] <tntexplosivesltd> why so much
[11:42] <tntexplosivesltd> over-compensating?
[11:42] <Davespice> is anyone here a fan of tracker music? as in Scream Tracker, Impule Tracker?
[11:42] <Davespice> ImpulSe*
[11:42] <MystX> HEY!
[11:42] <gobby> I do a lot of Java development and have a few VMs to emulate the production environment
[11:42] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[11:42] <tntexplosivesltd> oh java
[11:42] <MystX> POWER'S BACK ON!
[11:42] <tntexplosivesltd> 'nuff said
[11:42] <tntexplosivesltd> gobby: also why
[11:42] <tntexplosivesltd> it's java...
[11:42] <tntexplosivesltd> it's... eww
[11:43] <meltwater> i can see tnt is not a fan of java
[11:43] <MystX> I can go back to watching porn now
[11:43] <tntexplosivesltd> unless it's for a job
[11:43] <tntexplosivesltd> in which case I feel sorry for you
[11:43] <meltwater> lol
[11:43] <tntexplosivesltd> meltwater: nope
[11:43] <gobby> Yeah it's for work
[11:43] * MystX_ (~MystX@121-73-41-249.cable.telstraclear.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:43] <Jimf82> I like java and c# did quite alot in Xna just for my own testing
[11:44] <MystX_> hey..
[11:44] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[11:44] <tntexplosivesltd> Jimf82: that's worse
[11:44] <gobby> Means I can also keep things like /usr/portage & /var/tmp/portage in tmpfs so compiling is very quick
[11:44] <Jimf82> hehe
[11:44] * MystX (~MystX@ Quit (Disconnected by services)
[11:44] <tntexplosivesltd> restricted platform
[11:44] * MystX_ is now known as MystX
[11:44] <meltwater> it's what you do with the code more than the language surely
[11:44] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: what was that
[11:44] <MystX> Switching to wifi
[11:45] <gobby> Also It's a work laptop, so their money not mine!
[11:45] <tntexplosivesltd> meltwater: not really, I take into account how the code performs
[11:45] <gobby> It's more powerful than anything I've got @ home
[11:45] <tntexplosivesltd> I hate large dependencies (e.g. the entire JDK)
[11:45] <gobby> i7-2630QM
[11:45] <MystX> <tntexplosivesltd> Not really, i take into account how elitest I can be about my language choice
[11:46] <Jimf82> i started learning some 6502 assembly awhile ago
[11:46] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: nope
[11:46] <meltwater> thats fair enough i suppose. sometimes its easy to knock something up in something you know, performance isn't always important
[11:46] <gobby> Java works quite well for the project in question
[11:46] <tntexplosivesltd> I do it for the users
[11:46] <MystX> the users is you
[11:46] <gobby> A RESTful CMDB
[11:46] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah, there is the case of the right tool for the job
[11:47] <MystX> aight im off to watch tv
[11:47] <MystX> then slee
[11:47] <MystX> p
[11:47] <meltwater> must admit programming for android seems like a hell of a pig compared to other platforms
[11:47] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, it's easy
[11:47] <tntexplosivesltd> it's harder on iOS
[11:47] <tntexplosivesltd> but it's easier to make money from iOS
[11:48] <tntexplosivesltd> dv
[11:48] <tntexplosivesltd> * dev
[11:48] * gobby actually submitted a patch to the ASOP project!
[11:48] <tntexplosivesltd> ASOP?
[11:48] <meltwater> guess it gets easier as you go
[11:48] <gobby> Android
[11:48] <gobby> AOSP even
[11:49] <gobby> Android Open Source Project
[11:49] <tntexplosivesltd> oh
[11:49] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[11:49] <gobby> So I contributed a tiny change to ICS
[11:50] <tntexplosivesltd> I have no idea how people are going to get a java VM going on r-pi
[11:50] <gobby> Or more specifically the Email app on ICS
[11:50] <tntexplosivesltd> it will crawl
[11:50] <tntexplosivesltd> and eat up all the memory
[11:50] <tntexplosivesltd> om nom nom
[11:50] <meltwater> lol
[11:51] <meltwater> what do you prefer to use then tnt
[11:51] <tntexplosivesltd> depends on the job
[11:51] <meltwater> not used ICS, fingers crossed the emails will come through! ;)
[11:51] <tntexplosivesltd> mainly C/C++
[11:51] <tntexplosivesltd> I have used python and perl before, and use python at work
[11:51] <meltwater> sounds fair enough.
[11:52] <tntexplosivesltd> and have done an android app
[11:52] <tntexplosivesltd> python is annoying when trying to read someone else's code
[11:52] <meltwater> i've done windows mobile apps, they weren't too painful, except the issues within .net itself.
[11:52] <tntexplosivesltd> all dynamically typed >.<
[11:53] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:53] <Jimf82> I did a windows7 mobile game in c# too
[11:54] <tntexplosivesltd> C# is okay
[11:54] <tntexplosivesltd> had to do it a couple of years ago
[11:54] <meltwater> yeah didn't see too much problem with it, it was just the whole WM compact .net which was broken by MS in the run up to WP7
[11:55] * billy2 (billy@sevn.org) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[11:55] * GizmoB (5c14fe85@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[11:55] <tntexplosivesltd> The thing I hate is the lack of cross-platform support
[11:55] <tntexplosivesltd> I mean there's mono, but it's so annoying and large
[11:55] * gobby has an aversion to all things M$
[11:55] <meltwater> yeah that would be handy
[11:56] <Jimf82> i like c# and xna but i dont like the fact u are tied to microsoft so much
[11:56] <tntexplosivesltd> should be able to compile for the native platform
[11:56] <tntexplosivesltd> but M$ are all like "Nope lol"
[11:56] <meltwater> i'm on the fence with WP7, didn't like it before, but waiting to see how Windows8 turns out with it.
[11:56] <tntexplosivesltd> oh god
[11:56] <tntexplosivesltd> not keen at all for win8
[11:57] <Jimf82> i had a copy of windows8 for my pc but couldnt get it to copy the iso to my usb stick lol
[11:57] <meltwater> it could turn into vista and ME again I guess
[11:57] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: problems with netframe
[11:57] <tntexplosivesltd> it had a "moment"
[11:57] <MystX> Go on
[11:57] <tntexplosivesltd> -137763KBps
[11:58] <MystX> lol
[11:58] <tntexplosivesltd> "Error uploading"
[11:58] <MystX> try now
[11:58] <tntexplosivesltd> also it's real slow
[11:58] <MystX> i was updating shit
[11:58] <tntexplosivesltd> ah
[11:59] <tntexplosivesltd> it's a real good pic
[11:59] <Jimf82> i gotta go face the real world now.. :( nice talking speak later :)
[11:59] <tntexplosivesltd> some idiot I know
[11:59] <MystX> While im gone you guys should try break this: http://netfra.me
[11:59] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: take a look
[11:59] * Jimf82 (Jimf82@5e0ab7b5.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[11:59] <MystX> Its first priority for my first R-Pi
[11:59] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: i saw
[11:59] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[12:01] * Martix (~martix@4.177.broadband3.iol.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:01] <tntexplosivesltd> inb4 everything breaks
[12:01] <MystX> i dont think anyone's here =(
[12:01] <tntexplosivesltd> it's like lunch time in the UK
[12:02] <Davespice> 11 am
[12:02] <tntexplosivesltd> oh true we're GMT+13
[12:02] <tntexplosivesltd> daylight savings
[12:03] <Davespice> I've been sitting on a question that I want to ask, but I think I'm going to sound like a total n00b by asking, so don't all judge me okay =)
[12:03] <tntexplosivesltd> go ahead
[12:03] <tntexplosivesltd> we are all noobs at something
[12:03] <pygo> :)
[12:04] <Davespice> okay, hypothetical scenario - when get say Debian up and running on the Raspberry Pi, the number of packages shown in Aptitude are going to be a lot less on the normal x86 distro's right? because it is so new...
[12:05] <Davespice> at lot less than*
[12:05] <tntexplosivesltd> because what is new?
[12:05] <tntexplosivesltd> the ARM port?
[12:05] <Davespice> the arm version
[12:05] <tntexplosivesltd> I would assume so
[12:05] <Davespice> so for example, VLC media player probably won't be there and other things like that
[12:05] <tntexplosivesltd> mplayer
[12:05] <tntexplosivesltd> done
[12:05] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[12:06] <pygo> to start with anyways. things will likely get ported over time
[12:06] <Davespice> I am guessing this is also true for device drivers?
[12:06] <tntexplosivesltd> but yeah, most of the core functionality stuff should be ported already
[12:06] <pygo> lots yes
[12:06] <tntexplosivesltd> hehe
[12:06] <pygo> depends on the devices
[12:06] <Davespice> so my question is;
[12:06] <tntexplosivesltd> we won't really need many device drivers
[12:06] <tntexplosivesltd> if any at all
[12:06] <pygo> usb 802.11n dongles, webcams and other things
[12:06] <tntexplosivesltd> oh true lol
[12:07] <pygo> maybe printers for print servers and all that
[12:07] <tntexplosivesltd> forgot about those >.>
[12:07] <Davespice> when we find an unsupported device, what is the process for reporting it back? or do you even bother? is that considered rude to do so
[12:07] <pygo> or usb over ip stack :)
[12:07] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice: for a start, are you fixed on debian?
[12:07] * kcj (~casey@unaffiliated/kcj1993) Quit (Quit: Procrast...)
[12:07] <pygo> that's more upstream I think. debian has forums and should be able to assist in compiling. or the raspberry pi forums
[12:08] <tntexplosivesltd> I have no experience myself, can't comment here
[12:08] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice: as in, does the distro matter?
[12:09] <Davespice> I suppose not, as a driver should work accross various distros
[12:10] <tntexplosivesltd> no I mean the distro you are gonna use
[12:10] <Davespice> is the general practice to roll the driver yourself then?
[12:10] <Davespice> oh
[12:10] <Davespice> I was going to use Debian or Fedora
[12:10] <tntexplosivesltd> because with Archlinux arm, it's rolling release so you could expect divers wuite quickly =D
[12:10] <tntexplosivesltd> * quite
[12:11] <Davespice> yeah, the same is true for Debian I know - you just update the package list
[12:11] <tntexplosivesltd> but surely everything needs to be all test and stuf
[12:11] <tntexplosivesltd> f
[12:11] <tntexplosivesltd> what I've experienced is that it's way behind everything
[12:11] <Davespice> yeah, so that is the one you would go for?
[12:11] <tntexplosivesltd> arch yeah
[12:12] <tntexplosivesltd> plus I already use it quite a bit
[12:12] <Davespice> right okay, and I would prob put LXDE on top
[12:12] * ratxue (~chatzilla@host-89-241-166-147.as13285.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:12] <Davespice> I am hoping to download one of the pre-made SD card images to use
[12:12] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah true
[12:13] * billy2_ (billy@sevn.org) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:13] <tntexplosivesltd> Why'd you ping me?
[12:13] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice:
[12:13] * billy2_ (billy@sevn.org) Quit (Client Quit)
[12:14] <tntexplosivesltd> also why is that number so large?
[12:14] <tntexplosivesltd> that is worrying...
[12:14] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm bed time
[12:15] <Davespice> I wanted to see how long it took to get over to the other side of the world and back
[12:15] <Davespice> I got 1 second, what did you get?
[12:16] <Davespice> you are in Nz right?
[12:17] <tntexplosivesltd> yea
[12:17] <tntexplosivesltd> I haven't got anything back
[12:17] <tntexplosivesltd> owait
[12:17] <Davespice> okay maybe you need to ping me
[12:17] <Davespice> 1000 milliseconds is great for that distance
[12:17] <tntexplosivesltd> nope nothing
[12:17] <tntexplosivesltd> that doesn't make sense
[12:18] <pygo> that's a bit huge... for regular icmp that is
[12:18] <tntexplosivesltd> hang on
[12:18] <MystX> lol boobies
[12:18] <tntexplosivesltd> well actually my client is in the US
[12:18] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: ah goo
[12:18] <tntexplosivesltd> d
[12:19] * Davespice nods
[12:19] <tntexplosivesltd> I see it's doing what it was meant to
[12:20] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, she's hot
[12:20] <tntexplosivesltd> good choice anonymous poster
[12:21] <pygo> 1.7 seconds
[12:21] <pygo> my irc client is in the US somewhere. don't remember where
[12:21] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[12:21] <tntexplosivesltd> I am in nz, but ssh to a US server
[12:21] <pygo> I pinged myself and it was 3.4 seconds
[12:21] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice: 0.508 secs
[12:21] <pygo> yeah. me too. but form Canadia
[12:21] <pygo> from*
[12:22] <tntexplosivesltd> pygo: lol yeah 3.4 to myself
[12:22] <tntexplosivesltd> right, bed time properly now
[12:22] <tntexplosivesltd> night all
[12:24] <meltwater> night
[12:25] <meltwater> forgot it is friday...yey
[12:25] * chickey (02d969d6@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[12:26] <zag> http://www.raspberrypiforums.com/
[12:26] <zag> anyone intersted in writing some guides?
[12:26] <zag> I've added a few I found on the official forums
[12:26] <zag> for anyone who is already testing or using virtualbox of course
[12:27] <meltwater> oh a new forum nice
[12:27] <meltwater> one with structure! :)
[12:27] <zag> yeh got annoyed with official forums
[12:28] <zag> simplepress is S**t lol
[12:28] <zag> looks like 10 year old forum software
[12:28] <meltwater> the no editing of posts is really annoying too
[12:28] <zag> yeh and the double quotes
[12:28] <zag> and the horrible font
[12:28] <zag> and the fixed width....
[12:28] <zag> I could go on :)
[12:29] <meltwater> what are the servers you are running on?
[12:29] <meltwater> i.e. sturdy?
[12:29] <zag> I run my own webserver
[12:29] <zag> got an ssd :p
[12:29] <zag> so its blazingly fast
[12:29] * Heppie (~Heppie@5ac92fc4.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[12:29] <meltwater> just wondering about traffic etc, since they've been offered a proper host for theirs
[12:30] <zag> yeh i saw a lot of traffic on mine already so I guess they have millions of hits
[12:31] * Lakes (577f9dbd@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[12:31] <meltwater> humm i would expect an awful lot more traffic then
[12:32] * Lakes (577f9dbd@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Client Quit)
[12:32] <zag> yeh keep getting db errors, shows their popularity
[12:32] <zag> its linked from bbc, slashdot ect so not suprising really
[12:32] <zag> they have 10's of millions of users
[12:32] <meltwater> yep and thats before it is released
[12:33] <dmsuse> :)
[12:34] <zag> I wonder what distributer they are going to use
[12:34] <zag> and what webservers they have for ordering
[12:34] <zag> I can see a crash coming lol
[12:34] * Skummel (~Mats@ Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[12:34] <meltwater> will your cope with the traffic do you think?
[12:35] <meltwater> the shop is done through a e-selling site
[12:35] <meltwater> so it'll be some big servers (and lots of other shops) which will be killed...lol
[12:36] <zag> mines dedicated and I have experience with high volume sites.
[12:36] <zag> ssd really makes the difference on a webserver
[12:36] <zag> and 16gb ram and a stupid fast xeon :p
[12:37] * Stskeepz (~cvm@monster.tspre.org) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:37] <meltwater> fair enough, no problem then, can only imagine how big the R-Pi will be if they can produce them fast enough.
[12:37] * zgreg (greg@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[12:37] <dmsuse> they should run the sales server from the pi, itself.
[12:37] <izua> lol
[12:37] * zgreg (greg@ has joined #raspberrypi
[12:38] <zag> haha not a good idea
[12:38] * Stskeeps (~cvm@Maemo/community/distmaster/Stskeeps) Quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
[12:38] <meltwater> dms...lol yeah should be nice and quick sale that way.
[12:38] <dmsuse> lol
[12:38] <izua> the single sale?
[12:38] <izua> yeah, it will probably be very quick :P
[12:38] <meltwater> would be surprised if it made it into the cart.
[12:39] <zag> a normal webserver can only handle about 1000 requests a second, its suprising how bad they actually are before the db or io flatlines
[12:40] <meltwater> it's probably the automated bots which do most the damage
[12:40] <dmsuse> i think with lighthttp it would get a few more k, probably
[12:41] <zag> yeh googlebot does get a bit agressive sometimes
[12:41] <meltwater> i expect using simplepress isn't that good at handling things anyway
[12:41] <zag> but easily controlled with robots.txt
[12:41] <zag> or their web tools
[12:41] <zag> simplepress is aweful but it does integrate nicely with wordpress i guess
[12:42] <zag> but then so does phpbb, vbullitin and xenforo
[12:44] * Stskeepz is now known as Stskeeps
[12:44] * Stskeeps (~cvm@monster.tspre.org) Quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
[12:44] * stev (stev@114-42-69-179.dynamic.hinet.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[12:46] * Heppie (~Heppie@5ac92fc4.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:47] <meltwater> lol, yeah obviously a nice easy option, but kinda puts a less polished finish on things.
[12:47] <meltwater> hopefully the wiki can be improved somewhat too, as things progress
[12:48] <zag> http://www.raspberrypiforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=41&p=65#p65
[12:48] <zag> so i dont forget the irc details :p
[12:50] <meltwater> i guess talk to them about the forum, they may well be keen to offload it to you.
[12:50] <dmsuse> we are about to be flooded with millions of users :P
[12:51] <dmsuse> oh that is not posted on the real raspberrypi site?
[12:51] <zag> nah its on my site
[12:51] <zag> its an unnoficial forum
[12:51] <dmsuse> ok
[12:51] <zag> hoping just to get loads of guides together basically
[12:51] <zag> all in one place and easy to discuss
[12:52] <zag> as the linux community is very fragmented
[12:52] <zag> and hard to find even the most basic guides sometimes
[12:52] * RaTTuS|BIG (~Rattus.bi@ipv4-91-143-179-181.static.as8844.net) Quit ()
[12:52] <meltwater> it was posted on the R-Pi forum this morning, how i found it
[12:52] * bennoir (~ben@host81-148-1-84.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:53] <zag> http://www.raspberrypiforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38 <--here is an example. Using GPS on raspberry pi
[12:53] <chris_99> hi guys, this would work on the raspberrypi right - http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/armel/iso-dvd/
[12:54] <Stskeeps> right, debian armel works on rpi
[12:54] <zag> yup
[12:54] <chris_99> cool, so do you just create a disk image, thats the same size as your sd card
[12:54] <chris_99> then dd the disk image to the sd card
[12:54] <chris_99> for the Pi
[12:54] <zag> you can get it up and running on a virtual machine to test
[12:54] <meltwater> zag: sounds good to me
[12:55] <izua> what should one use for a vm?
[12:55] * devyx (~devyx@76.116.broadband4.iol.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:55] <chris_99> Qemu i believe works
[12:56] <chris_99> going to try in a bit
[12:56] <izua> anything for the less priviledged os-es?
[12:56] <dmsuse> im going with gentoo, once i get mine
[12:56] <zag> use a vm if you want to test distros before raspberry pi is released
[12:56] <chris_99> i was wondering about gentoo too, dmsuse
[12:56] <chris_99> thats what i'm running as my desktop OS
[12:57] <dmsuse> i checked yesterday, they fully support arm :)
[12:57] <chris_99> yup
[12:57] <dmsuse> oh cool
[12:57] <zag> I thought it was just Arch, Fedora and Debian?
[12:57] <dmsuse> i am sure there are many more
[12:57] <zag> got a link to the arm compile of gentoo?
[12:57] <izua> nah
[12:57] <izua> gentoo is the one that supports the most iirc
[12:58] <dmsuse> well it doesn't work like that
[12:58] <meltwater> a VM section for your forum zag perhaps?
[12:58] <meltwater> ;)
[12:58] <dmsuse> one sec ill get you a link
[12:58] <dmsuse> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-arm.xml
[12:58] <dmsuse> if you have not used gentoo before, i would not recommend it
[12:58] <izua> what should one use to emulate that on windows?
[12:58] <zag> I think i will leave it meltwater, I have some youtube guides already and raspberry is not far away :)
[12:59] <chris_99> you can get Qemu for windows i think izua
[12:59] <meltwater> yeah i guess vm's will be less useful by then.
[12:59] <dmsuse> i use vmware
[12:59] <izua> couldn't find it on their official page
[12:59] <chris_99> does vmware work with arm though dmsuse
[12:59] <izua> vmware? is it simulating across archs?
[12:59] <zag> virtualbox also works
[12:59] <dmsuse> good question lol
[12:59] <dmsuse> probably not
[13:00] <izua> virtualbox too?
[13:00] <chris_99> yeah i don't think vmware does arm tbh
[13:01] <meltwater> there were guides on the forum about using qemu with arm, but I don't know enough about linux to worry about the difference
[13:01] <izua> what target should i aim for? armv7, right?
[13:01] <izua> gentoo has stage3 envs starting at armv4
[13:02] <bennoir> I was always slightly confused about whether the rasbpi was Arm v6 or v7... can anyone clarify?
[13:03] <izua> dmsuse: you plan on building a gentoo for the raspberry?
[13:03] <dmsuse> arm11
[13:03] <dmsuse> izua: yes
[13:03] <izua> let me know what kernel modules you plan on using :)
[13:03] <dmsuse> the modules you need a are listed somewhere
[13:03] <dmsuse> i forget where i saw them
[13:04] <meltwater> arm11 = armV6 apparently
[13:04] * someboy (~someboy@cpc24-bagu10-2-0-cust168.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit ()
[13:04] <zag> so its arm v6 then?
[13:04] <izua> not v7?
[13:04] <meltwater> v7 is cortex
[13:05] <meltwater> mind you only getting that from wiki
[13:05] <Stskeeps> rpi is armv6
[13:05] <zag> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM11
[13:06] * Heppie (~Heppie@5ac92fc4.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[13:06] * RaTTuS|BIG (~Rattus.bi@ipv4-91-143-179-181.static.as8844.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:07] <dmsuse> i think people are going to have alot of problems trying to find drivers for their hardware
[13:08] <Stskeeps> why? it's a standard linux usb stack
[13:08] * MystX (~MystX@121-73-41-249.cable.telstraclear.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[13:08] <Stskeeps> if it works for linux without x86 binaries, you're fine :P
[13:08] <zag> indeed
[13:08] <dmsuse> well people will be expecting plug and play
[13:08] * izua is really curious about the gpio part
[13:08] <zag> maybe I should start a list of peripherals that are officially working :)
[13:09] <izua> raspberry pi is bringing back the parallel port, sort of.
[13:11] * bloke (559f8015@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[13:11] <bloke> mmmm pi
[13:12] <dmsuse> :)
[13:12] * nichobb (~nichobb@host109-145-47-201.range109-145.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:12] <nichobb> ?
[13:12] <dmsuse> has anyone found a reasonibly prices screen for their pi yet? i was wanting something very energy efficient
[13:12] <nichobb> Hello
[13:12] <dmsuse> hi
[13:13] <nichobb> Ah, new client is poor. Let me try another.
[13:13] * bloke (559f8015@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Client Quit)
[13:13] <zag> http://www.raspberrypiforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=43&p=67#p67
[13:13] <zag> i started a list here
[13:14] <nichobb> Quit
[13:14] * nichobb (~nichobb@host109-145-47-201.range109-145.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Client Quit)
[13:16] <zag> even if its not actually verified yet :p
[13:16] <zag> unless some ebay hero wants to lend me a raspberry pi!!
[13:16] * Davespice has just ordered a HDMI to DVI cable from Amazon
[13:16] * Ogoshi (~Ogoshi@ has joined #raspberrypi
[13:17] <haltdef> my monitor has like 3 hdmi ports ????
[13:17] * Ogoshi (~Ogoshi@ Quit (Client Quit)
[13:17] <haltdef> only spare hdmi cable I have is 5m though, mebbe a bit long
[13:17] * helge (~helge@g230231012.adsl.alicedsl.de) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
[13:18] <dmsuse> ah found it
[13:18] <dmsuse> http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoardVerifiedPeripherals
[13:20] * victhor (~victhor@ has joined #raspberrypi
[13:21] * nichobb (~nichobb@host109-145-47-201.range109-145.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:23] <nichobb> Hello again, just trying out IRC. How is everyone
[13:23] <dmsuse> good, you?
[13:23] <RaTTuS|BIG> \o
[13:23] <Davespice> hi Nichobb, good thanks
[13:23] <meltwater> hi nich
[13:23] <zag> perfect thanks dmsuse
[13:24] <dmsuse> zag: np :p i knew i saw it somewhere :P
[13:24] <nichobb> Not to bad thanks. Trying to relax whilst off and watching daily politics
[13:25] <bennoir> Andrew Neil? Ugh!
[13:29] <nichobb> I know, I get the feeling he does it because he's lonely :-)
[13:29] * matt0 (~matt0@60-241-58-23.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:31] <bennoir> Yep definately
[13:33] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/12/vuzix-augmented-reality-smart-glasses-prototype-hands-on-video/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
[13:33] <RaTTuS|BIG> oops wrong window - but cool anyway
[13:35] <matt0> Am I the only one thinking of putting a R-Pi in their car, attaching a touchscreen etc... ? I think a full fledged computer(sort of :p) in your car is a dream
[13:35] <izua> dmsuse: suggestions for the first environment, where to build the stage3?
[13:35] <izua> i'm messing with qemu on windows right now, not sure if i should build in a debian, hehe
[13:38] <meltwater> matt, yep planning on doing something along those lines if i can
[13:38] <haltdef> you talking about gentoo, izua?
[13:38] <izua> yeah
[13:38] <meltwater> one of the many projects
[13:38] <izua> i'm planning on compiling everything before i get my hands on a rasp
[13:38] <matt0> meltwater, what are your plans for power?
[13:38] <izua> but i'm not really sure what to use for the live env to build my kernel and system
[13:38] <haltdef> yeah I tried that, kernel booted but couldn't get it to recognize the rootfs
[13:39] <haltdef> there's some helpful but tucked away documentation somewhere, dunno if you've seen it
[13:39] <izua> what did you boot? as in, a live cd, etc?
[13:39] <haltdef> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/index.xml
[13:39] <izua> essentially i'm looking for a live iso that can boot under raspberry
[13:39] <haltdef> I booted a regular amd64 install
[13:39] <nichobb> When I was using a PPC, I looked at software to reverse the screen and display it on windscreen for a tomtom HUD. Wonder if projector would work and not be too distracting.
[13:39] <haltdef> in a VM too, I don't use linux on any physical machines yet
[13:39] <izua> erm
[13:39] <izua> and you crossbuilt the arm stage
[13:40] <izua> and then booted in arm emulation mode? ._.
[13:40] <haltdef> I've only managed kernel so far, that booted
[13:40] <haltdef> regular armv6 stage3 should work
[13:40] <meltwater> @matt0 ideally it'll detect ign off and shutdown, then restart when it's back
[13:40] <izua> yeah, but i need a working kernel and minimal environment to build the stage3
[13:40] <haltdef> you should be able to cross compile your own
[13:41] <haltdef> or just extract the regular one on your pc to a virtual hdd
[13:41] <matt0> meltwater, nono I mean power source. I don't know enough about electronics but I was thinking some how connecting to the cigarette lighter if thats possible
[13:41] <izua> yeah, i was hoping to boot directly into an arm kernel, and just compile
[13:41] <haltdef> I've given up on qemu, rather wait for physical hardware
[13:41] <izua> i guess crosscompiling also works
[13:41] <izua> oh?
[13:41] <izua> why did oyu give up?
[13:42] <haltdef> the hardware qemu emulates is very different to what the raspi will be, all that tinkering to make various things work is a bit of a waste of time
[13:42] <meltwater> @matt0 yeah cigarette lighter should be fine, but if it's not switched on ign it'll drain your battery
[13:42] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[13:42] <haltdef> I'm sure it'd be more fun to work all this out on a physical raspi too
[13:42] <meltwater> @matt0 or if it is, it'll hard kill it before it is able to shutdown
[13:43] * robde (~robde@pC19F77AE.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Quit: Gone.)
[13:43] <haltdef> portage works as normal under a crossdev environment izua, surely there's a portage package that'll build a rootfs from scratch?
[13:44] * zear_ is now known as zear
[13:44] <haltdef> emerge-wrapper --root /mnt/sd system or something
[13:44] * robde (~robde@pC19F77AE.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[13:50] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:50] * IT_Sean (~sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:50] <PiBot> IT_Sean| Well hello Sean. How are you today?
[13:51] <nichobb> @matt0 the cigarette lighter thing, look for a phone charger perhps?
[13:51] <IT_Sean> There are loads of USB chargers that go into an automotive 12v socket
[13:51] <IT_Sean> I assume that is what you are looking for?
[13:52] * Caver (~Caver@nat1.nipltd.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:54] <meltwater> @matt0 Yeah a phone charger will power it, try to make sure it can supply a reasonable amount of current, say 1A (you may get away with 500mA)
[13:54] <matt0> Okay, cool. Thanks for the info
[13:54] * devyx (~devyx@76.116.broadband4.iol.cz) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[13:55] * NazarUkraine (2513be45@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[13:56] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:56] <haltdef> this microsd does 4 iops random :/
[13:56] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:57] <Caver> ouch .. thats not so quick
[13:57] <haltdef> 17KB/s
[13:57] <matt0> wow
[13:57] <haltdef> it was faster in my phone's reader when tethered, 200KB/s
[13:58] <Caver> does it say what class it is?
[13:58] <haltdef> 12MB/s read 7MB/s write, class 4
[13:58] <Caver> nods .. so about it's spec then
[13:59] <haltdef> class system doesn't take randoms into account, was designed for cameras that need a certain sequential write wasn't it
[13:59] <haltdef> think my card reader just sucks
[14:00] <Caver> thats true .. camera's write data in a very different fashon, to a linux general purpose os file system
[14:00] <haltdef> my ssd does 50MB/s random write <3
[14:00] <Caver> is it a external usb reader or .. ?
[14:00] <haltdef> internal laptop reader
[14:00] <haltdef> most likely uses usb internally
[14:00] * GO_otd016_AUTO_Y (vilkovo@ has joined #raspberrypi
[14:01] <Caver> lspci / lsusb ought to confirm :)
[14:01] <haltdef> I don't use linux
[14:01] <Caver> ah
[14:02] <RaTTuS|BIG> ^ you will
[14:02] <haltdef> I'm familiar with linux, I don't like it as a laptop or desktop OS
[14:02] <izua> not on a desktop
[14:02] <izua> linux sucks on that part
[14:02] <haltdef> or server OS come to think of it, win2k8 r2 nowadays :P
[14:03] <Caver> in that case open up Device Manager, View --> Devices by connection
[14:03] <matt0> Are you a gamer by any chance? haltdef
[14:03] <Caver> then find it .. will show which bus it's attatched to
[14:03] <haltdef> very casual I suppose
[14:03] <izua> toying with an embedded device doesn't qualify as hardcore linux usage, i guess
[14:03] * NazarUkraine (2513be45@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[14:03] <haltdef> I don't game at all on my laptop, windows is still my OS of choice
[14:03] <Caver> each to their own ...
[14:04] <izua> haltdef: do you work in engineering, perchance?
[14:04] <haltdef> unemployed but never had a job outside of retail yet
[14:04] <izua> ah, lol
[14:04] <matt0> haltdef, are you human, perchance?
[14:05] <Caver> lol
[14:05] <haltdef> yes!
[14:05] <matt0> YAAAA
[14:05] <Caver> make him take a turing test
[14:05] <izua> the only linux fans that don't use linux permanently are either into engineering or gaming
[14:05] <izua> so, what's your excuse? *grin*
[14:06] <haltdef> ah, the sd card reader's PCI-e based
[14:06] <Caver> well some people it's just a means to a end
[14:06] <haltdef> was using generic drivers
[14:06] <Caver> aha .. interesting info though
[14:06] <haltdef> might be a bit quicker now
[14:06] <dmsuse> i intent to use my pi as my main computer :P
[14:06] <Caver> the sort by connection thing, is kinda interesting - lets you see how your machine is wired up
[14:06] <Davespice> guys, some of the UK people might like to read this - its Micheal Grove's full speech (the Education Minister) and he mentions the Raspberry Pi -> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jan/11/digital-literacy-michael-gove-speech
[14:06] <haltdef> I can't put my finger on why i want a raspi
[14:07] <haltdef> I just really want one, no specific use in mind, at least not yet
[14:07] <Caver> same here
[14:07] <Caver> though I do like the GPIO + girt board idea - a lot
[14:07] <dmsuse> haltdef: home automation?
[14:08] <Caver> I fancy making a automated garrage door opener, that will make it open, when my mobile phone has logged into the home wifi network
[14:08] <haltdef> my only plan atm is "get gentoo on it"
[14:09] <izua> Caver: sounds like wasting a lot of silicon for something very simple :P
[14:09] <dmsuse> Caver: wouldn't that mean your garage door opens whenever your phone loses wifi signal ?
[14:09] <matt0> rofl
[14:09] <matt0> wouldn't gentoo take a very long time to compile?
[14:09] * cmg (~androirc@ has joined #raspberrypi
[14:09] <haltdef> not on an i7
[14:09] * izua compiled it on a 300MHz mendocino
[14:09] <pygo> I want a dozen or so... over the next year. for building a couple robots and home automation and for print servers/netflix device
[14:09] <Caver> dmsuse: well with a bit more logic than that
[14:09] <dmsuse> Caver: ok :)
[14:09] <dmsuse> i would do it so the garage door opens when i send it an email
[14:10] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca56ab.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:10] <Caver> and no not at all, because it can also be the garrage internet/pdf manuals machine
[14:10] <pygo> I may try my hand at gpgpu programming (finally)
[14:10] <pygo> and real C programming.. not just using C as a workaround because a bash script isn't enough
[14:10] <pygo> herp derp I'm a newb. lol
[14:11] <dmsuse> pygo: did you ever play a game called bz?
[14:11] <pygo> nah
[14:11] <dmsuse> kk
[14:11] <pygo> why?
[14:11] <dmsuse> your name looks firmiliar
[14:11] <pygo> ah
[14:11] <pygo> what's bz?
[14:11] <dmsuse> nothing important :)
[14:11] <pygo> k
[14:12] * robde (~robde@wlan-93-121.uni-koblenz.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:13] <haltdef> 6.1MB/s random read now, still 17KB/s random write
[14:13] <haltdef> hmm!
[14:13] <Davespice> does anyone here play Hedgewars? It's a clone of Worms 2 - but with hedgehogs instead of Worms, was wondering how well that would run on Pi - well I am guessing by the strength of the GPU
[14:13] * spikey (50471d41@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
[14:13] <Caver> interesting - what did you change?
[14:13] <pygo> have you tested same sd card on a normal card reader with same tests?
[14:13] <haltdef> installed jmicron drivers, was using generic windows ones
[14:13] <haltdef> I've seen 200KB/s random write using my phone's reader though
[14:14] * nrdb (~neil@CPE-124-187-137-199.lns16.ken.bigpond.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:14] <Caver> I wonder was it caching, when you were doing it on the phone?
[14:15] <haltdef> 23MB/s read 10MB/s write sequential though, not bad for a class 4
[14:15] <haltdef> that's my thinking
[14:15] <pygo> inded
[14:15] <pygo> +e
[14:15] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:17] <victhor> Davespice, don't know if this will be useful but there is a port of Worms for the iPhone
[14:17] <Caver> I guess you could try setting up qemu and see if you can make it compile
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[14:22] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) has joined #raspberrypi
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[14:28] <nichobb> With Govies speach to bet, seems he's enthusiastic but laking lots of other peoles ideas - not sure focus there. Think he listens to freakanomics as well :-)
[14:28] <nichobb> Wwwfreakonomics.com/2011/12/21/how-is-a-bad-radio-station-like-our-public-school-system-a-freakonomics-radio-podcast-encore/
[14:30] <haltdef> wow, the 2GB card that came with my ??100 android phone does 200KB/s random write
[14:30] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[14:30] <haltdef> not sure if it's worth trading 6MB/s rando read for 4MB/s though
[14:30] * RITRedbeard__ (~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:31] * GO_otd016_AUTO_Y (vilkovo@ Quit (Quit: Kernel panic!)
[14:36] * UnderSampled|tab (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:36] <Caver> it'll be interesting to see what kind of iops are possible with the pi's sd card reader
[14:37] * Roon (~Roon@cpc9-bedf3-2-0-cust6.9-1.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:37] <Caver> haltdev: what program are you using to get your iops reading?
[14:40] * meltwater (22fd03c9@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[14:42] <haltdef> crystaldiskmark
[14:42] <haltdef> seems the 2GB one is my best bet, best random writes of any card I have
[14:44] * t_dot_zilla (~t_dot_zil@firewall-a.buf.ny.i-evolve.net) Quit (Changing host)
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[14:45] * hetii (~lew@ has joined #raspberrypi
[14:45] <hetii> Huh
[14:45] <hetii> Hello :)
[14:46] <hetii> such amount of plp was unexpected by me :)
[14:46] * Miek (~mike@unaffiliated/mikechml) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:46] <Caver> hi
[14:46] <nichobb> Hi, how's it going hetii
[14:46] <UnderSampled|tab> hetii: many of them have joined, and have lurked without saying much
[14:47] <hetii> nichobb: thx :) everything ok :)
[14:47] <hetii> i suppose wait like many of you till be able to get on my hand some board
[14:48] <nichobb> Yes shouldn't be long yet.
[14:48] <hetii> its amazig that there is so much tables on the market with similart hardware possibility and they are less popular then this simple raw board :)
[14:48] <UnderSampled|tab> hetii: do they compete on price?
[14:48] <hetii> sure not :)
[14:49] <UnderSampled|tab> most of the projects people want their raspi for could easily be done with a smartphone
[14:49] * nrdb (~neil@CPE-124-187-137-199.lns16.ken.bigpond.net.au) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[14:49] <hetii> unfortunatly i suppose the shipping cost will be higher then the board.
[14:49] <UnderSampled|tab> but not everyone has a running smartphone that they can just toss in a project-box
[14:49] <nichobb> Also generally not open (not comment on lack of case) - hackers dream with the price.
[14:50] <nichobb> Shipping should be okay, can't say about the tax/duty in your country.
[14:50] <Caver> smartphones don't usually come with a GPIO port sadly
[14:51] <Caver> and far too easy to brick if you screw something up, the pi .... it'd be sad but buying a new one won't be too hard
[14:51] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: they have bluetooth (which is just wireless usart), USB, Wifi
[14:52] <UnderSampled|tab> and you just run an app on it
[14:52] <Caver> how do I connect a motor to bluetooth - cheaply?
[14:52] <UnderSampled|tab> not easily, sadly
[14:53] <UnderSampled|tab> however, the raspi only has 8gpio, so you're going to be using serial out anyway (the gert-board uses spi)
[14:53] <piofcube> There's IOIO but I haven't had time to look into it much
[14:53] <nichobb> Bluetooth projector would connect (not cheap). We need a pi phone ;-)
[14:53] <Caver> with the Gertboard, looks to be very nice solution ... plus I can put a little web server on it and do all sorts of remote control ideas to work
[14:53] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: have you looked at google's ADK?
[14:53] <folays> hello, could someone tell me if raspi will be subject to duty in france? they are shipped from england so i think i should not get any duty right?
[14:54] <UnderSampled|tab> it's not cheap, but you can find alternatives to it
[14:54] <Dagger2> folays: if indeed they ship from England you should be fine
[14:54] <Caver> yeah I've done a few things with it ... www.phonegap.com is a bit easier IMHO
[14:54] <Dagger2> folays: since they're being made in China though, the sensible thing might be to ship directly from there rather than relaying via the UK
[14:54] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: not SDK, ADK
[14:55] <Caver> plus you can cross compile to a iPhone - thats what I'm going to use to make my front ends, and the Pi as the back end to do the physical side of things
[14:55] <hetii> please look at this project: http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/projects.html if you have USB on your device then its not a problem at all to add atmega and have many GPIOs and other stuff that you need
[14:57] <Caver> UnderSampled: ADK no not really - you think it's a better idea?
[14:57] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: my point is not that you shouldn't use an raspi, but that if you have an old smartphone laying around, it may be more convenient or possibly cheaper
[14:57] * t_dot_zilla (~t_dot_zil@unaffiliated/t-dot-zilla/x-2830497) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner])
[14:57] <Caver> if I had any old smartphones - yes ... I don't!
[14:57] <UnderSampled|tab> me neither
[14:58] <Caver> or you don't think I should develop with a Pi for some reason?
[14:58] <UnderSampled|tab> no, I'm looking forward to the raspi to :P
[14:59] <Caver> the main reason I love the Pi is I can prototype all my programming in Python, and that makes it easy to make a webserver which I can put on my LAN
[14:59] <nichobb> I don't have a new smart phone :-P
[14:59] * domble (50b09220@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit ()
[14:59] <Caver> if the project works out I can perhaps make something a bit more dedicated, and then free up the Pi for next project :)
[15:00] * piofcube (~piofcube@piofcube.1billionhex.com) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[15:00] <UnderSampled|tab> What would you make more dedicated?
[15:00] <UnderSampled|tab> to replace the raspi?
[15:01] <nichobb> @Caver if it works will you really port to a new device or just end up buying a new pi?
[15:01] <Caver> I want to make a garrage door opener
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[15:01] * hetii (~lew@ Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[15:01] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: a controller, or the actuall motion assembly?
[15:01] <Caver> so use the motor drive that gert showed in his demo , and perhaps make it do somethign clever like open, when my phone comes back in range of the wifi network
[15:01] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: you could use an arduino with an ethernet sheild
[15:01] * Unagichan (ae3b22f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[15:02] <Caver> so when I'm off for a ride on my motorbike, and the door opens automatically - james bond style :)
[15:02] <UnderSampled|tab> I doubt the motor driver on the gertboard is very strong
[15:02] <Caver> watch gert's youtube demo .. it is :)
[15:03] <Caver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UK4mKBpTBE
[15:03] <UnderSampled|tab> ok
[15:03] <UnderSampled|tab> though I would guess that it would be easier to buy a retail garage opener
[15:04] <Caver> that talks to a computer?
[15:04] <Caver> I doubt it!
[15:04] <UnderSampled|tab> you probably could control it with only one gpio
[15:04] * Jimf82 (Jimf82@5e0ab7b5.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:04] <Caver> anyway - where's the fun in that?
[15:04] <UnderSampled|tab> I mean, they have radio controlled remotes
[15:04] <piofcube> You could hack the board on the door opener to operate via relays from the gert board easily enough
[15:04] <Jimf82> hello peoples
[15:04] <RaTTuS|BIG> Hi there Jimf82
[15:04] <nichobb> Hi person
[15:04] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: you can do what you want
[15:05] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: I'm just suggesting any alternative that comes to my mind, in case you haven't already thought of it
[15:05] <Caver> oh - more than welcome
[15:05] <IT_Sean> My recommendation would be to use the raspi to control an off the shelf opener unit.
[15:05] <IT_Sean> As thoser have all the safety stuff built in already
[15:05] <Caver> I enjoy making things
[15:05] <piofcube> If you did that, you wouldn't have to worry about manufacturing the steel hardware on the opener.
[15:06] <UnderSampled|tab> plus, you wouldn't need the gertboard
[15:06] <IT_Sean> if you use your own motor controlled directly from the raspi, and then you ever do any work on your house, you will NEVER get a CofO
[15:06] <nichobb> Caver: you going to link it to phone gps as well? So when you hit a couple of points in order it starts opening?
[15:07] <Caver> nichobb: yup ... probably have a little app on the phone, which I swtich on when I leave for my ride, so it doesn't like ... open when ever my phone has a wifi loss
[15:07] * Unagichan (ae3b22f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[15:07] <UnderSampled|tab> the cool thing with the raspberry pi is that it's probably cheaper than an arduino and an ethernet sheild
[15:07] <Caver> yeah .. that was my attraction to it
[15:08] <UnderSampled|tab> though you could easily make your own arduion+ethernet on a breadboard for way less
[15:08] <Caver> yeah but harder to I'd imagine integrate with a wifi app on my google phone
[15:09] <nichobb> Sounds like a cool idea, shame I don't have a car/bike or garage ;-)
[15:09] * t_dot_zilla (~t_dot_zil@firewall-a.buf.ny.i-evolve.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:09] <Caver> where as ... phonegap to make the app on the phone, and a pi with gertboard, is going to work quite nicely
[15:09] * Jimf82 (Jimf82@5e0ab7b5.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[15:09] <Caver> realistically the price of the pi is nothing compaired to the steel/gearbox for the actual door
[15:09] * Julian94 (~langlo94@ti0159a380-dhcp2028.bb.online.no) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:09] <UnderSampled|tab> do we have any idea what the gerboard will cost?
[15:09] <Caver> $35 I think
[15:09] <piofcube> I might be wrong here... probs am but what the heck LOL... The add-ons for the arduino are pretty expensive but since the R-Pi has came along, there's many people coming up with cheap self-build interfaces etc... Why wasn't there so much of a push with the arduino? There might be but I haven't seen much.
[15:11] <victhor> if people are still buying them, no reason to lower the price
[15:11] <piofcube> very true
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[15:11] <hetii> Sorry i lost connection
[15:11] <Caver> wb
[15:11] <hetii> so i just repeat again
[15:11] * datagutt_ is now known as datagutt
[15:11] <hetii> I hope that i can count on some of you from UK, if there will be some trouble with ordering directly to Europe :>
[15:11] <hetii> but its another subject. So as we know RPi will be able to do a lot of nice stuff for us
[15:11] <hetii> but i really consider how it will works with simple web browsing ... What will be the system responsive time
[15:11] <hetii> and also how long the SD card will survive when it will works as a system source and swap file area:)
[15:11] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: do you already have the motor?
[15:11] <hetii> The box from http://www.solid-run.com/ is also cool but the price is to hight.
[15:11] <hetii> and thy want to add extra 35$ shipping cost
[15:12] <victhor> thought they were on pre-order
[15:12] <victhor> which is why I gave up on it
[15:12] <Caver> UnderSampled: no
[15:12] <Caver> just an idea in my head so far
[15:12] <dmsuse> hetii: i suppose it depends what web browser you use
[15:13] <hetii> firefox or chrome
[15:13] <dmsuse> they are bloatware :P
[15:13] <Caver> well in theory you can run with out a swap file
[15:14] <IT_Sean> Urf... screw you HP. Why do i need to pull the PSU to get to the PCI slots in your dammed case!!!! :/
[15:14] <Caver> browsing I'd imagine simular to a android phone speed - as it's the kind of think they'd use that SoC for usually
[15:14] <hetii> you know for me its not so much important till most site will be rendered fine and will support some adblock
[15:14] <dmsuse> links in graphical mode would be fast :D
[15:15] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: well, you can get a consumer garage door opener for $140
[15:15] <victhor> good luck using firefox on 256 MB of RAM
[15:15] <Caver> with ethernet on it?
[15:15] <Caver> or get that and interface the pi to it?
[15:15] <UnderSampled|tab> I wasn't going to include the price of the raspi
[15:16] <victhor> forget about using any fancy browser with plugins on a computer with 256 MB of RAm
[15:16] <UnderSampled|tab> you could easily interface it with just the raspi
[15:16] <Caver> nods
[15:16] <dmsuse> victhor: that is not to say it wouldn't work
[15:16] <dmsuse> with a class 10 sd card, the swap should be ast enough
[15:16] <dmsuse> *fast
[15:16] <victhor> firefox would eat the RAM all by itself
[15:16] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: if you think you can get a motor, a track, a chain, and any safety measures required for less than 110
[15:17] <victhor> and if the system begins to swap, it becomes unusable.
[15:18] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: the designers for the opener would have also thought about all the mounting required
[15:18] <Caver> chain - got my old motorbike chain - will be fine, track - don't need, the door opens horizontally and already has one ... motor .. will have to buy, safety ... not sure on that one yet
[15:18] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: the door opens horizontally?
[15:18] <Caver> yes ...
[15:18] <UnderSampled|tab> like a sliding door?
[15:18] <Caver> yes
[15:18] <UnderSampled|tab> that's weird
[15:19] <Caver> hehe I'm british - comes with the territory :)
[15:19] * muhaa (55ede038@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[15:19] <UnderSampled|tab> well, none of the garage door openers here are designed that way
[15:20] <Caver> yeah ... I know!
[15:20] * Roon (~Roon@cpc9-bedf3-2-0-cust6.9-1.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit ()
[15:20] <Caver> though I think it makes the safety easier, as nothing can fall on your head
[15:20] <hetii> I have no garage but such simple think you can do by some small uC like attiny or atmera or even by usign just ethernet <-> rs232 interface
[15:21] <victhor> um, I never saw any garage doors that open vertically where I live
[15:21] <victhor> they all slide horizontally
[15:22] <Caver> different countries do things different ways I guess
[15:22] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: http://videosift.com/video/BMW-F800S-Garage-Door-Opener-british-style
[15:23] <Caver> yeah thats a 1970's style thing .. mine I think was installed about 1910!
[15:23] <RaTTuS|BIG> also depends on space .,.,..
[15:23] <UnderSampled|tab> victhor: I know of barn doors that open that way
[15:23] <UnderSampled|tab> all of the residential garages open up
[15:23] <UnderSampled|tab> saves on space
[15:23] <UnderSampled|tab> you have have two next to each other
[15:24] <UnderSampled|tab> instead of having to save a place for the door to slide to
[15:24] <IT_Sean> mine opens upwards.
[15:24] <Caver> yeah .. mine sort of slides down the side wall as it opens
[15:25] <IT_Sean> (assuming it opens, that is. it doesn't like the cold.
[15:25] <IT_Sean> )
[15:25] <Caver> which is great as I can always get/store stuff in the loft space
[15:26] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: down?
[15:26] <Caver> sort of like this - http://www.thegaragedoorcentre.co.uk/feature_details.php?featureid=11
[15:27] <Caver> except mines wood
[15:27] <hetii> Caver: you could also bay some cheap router that will support https://openwrt.org/ distribution and you be able control your door lights etc in your garage and even you don`t need the network cable but use wifi
[15:27] <Caver> cool - can you get a openwrt router for less than ??25?
[15:28] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: rolls up?
[15:28] <hetii> I suppose yes
[15:28] <Caver> rolls sideways
[15:28] <dmsuse> openwrt isn't great
[15:28] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: the raspi's 15 pounds
[15:28] <Caver> for the A
[15:28] <Caver> I want the B
[15:28] <Caver> which is ??22 + p&p
[15:28] <Caver> I think
[15:28] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: heh, by up that time I meant together (following the idiom)
[15:28] <dmsuse> plus unless u have a router with a sd slot which most don't you can't install software on openwrt anyway
[15:29] <haltdef> plus VAT
[15:29] <Caver> because I'll want the ethernet
[15:29] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: ah, right
[15:29] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: you might be able to get a router
[15:29] <haltdef> I was hoping to get znc compiled for my router
[15:29] <UnderSampled|tab> for that price
[15:29] <hetii> Caver: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A5928&rt=nc&_nkw=wrt54g&_dmpt=COMP_EN_Routers&_sticky=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=15&_sc=1
[15:29] <haltdef> nightmare
[15:29] <Dagger2> Caver: well, there's http://www.volumerates.com/product/tp-link-tl-wr703n-openwrt-compatible-pocket-11n-150m-3g-mobile-wireless-broadband-router--blue-ship-with-openwrt-pre-installed-upon-customers-request-103048
[15:30] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: since you have to make your own opener anyway, why not have some fun with it? : http://hackaday.com/2011/11/27/star-trek-style-pneumatic-doors-that-dont-require-a-stagehand/
[15:30] <Caver> erm ... ok .. how do I do the hardware control with it though? or was this to link into the main houses network
[15:31] <UnderSampled|tab> you'd have to use a relay of some sort
[15:31] <UnderSampled|tab> if you what his video, he should show his setup
[15:31] <Caver> ahahah ~ star trek doors
[15:31] <UnderSampled|tab> it does involve 5v logic somewhere
[15:31] <hetii> you don`t need SD card inside router just put firmware into router and use solder to connect some GPIO to your driver and thats it
[15:31] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: it would be a lot faster at opening
[15:31] <hetii> simple shell script and you can control it
[15:32] <Caver> ROFTL .. very cool
[15:32] <Caver> I like that
[15:32] <Caver> well I do have a compressor already ahahah
[15:33] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: then you wouldn't have to get a motor
[15:34] <Caver> yup
[15:34] <Caver> realistically the piston's going to cost loads more than a motor - unless I can find a scrap one
[15:34] <dmsuse> what windows manager is everyone going to be using?
[15:35] <Caver> probably LXDE
[15:35] <victhor> not gnome, for sure :)
[15:36] <dmsuse> Caver: cool
[15:36] <dmsuse> victhor: lol
[15:36] <Caver> it seems to work on my lubuntu setup running on a old P3-600MHz, 256Mb laptop alright
[15:36] <Caver> which had to be broadly simular performace
[15:36] <dmsuse> can the p3 600mhz compare speedwise, given that is is similar mhz?
[15:37] <dmsuse> you answered before i asked :P lol
[15:37] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: the one used in the video http://www.pneu-store.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=4347&category_id=299&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2 is 98 pounds
[15:37] <Caver> I don't know I think a ARM MHz is a bit more efficent than a Intel MHz .. as it's got a shorter pipeline
[15:38] <Caver> UnderSampled - plus hoses etc ..
[15:38] <rm> hm
[15:38] <UnderSampled|tab> the older processors are older :P
[15:38] <rm> p3 600 MHz will be faster
[15:38] <rm> or... maybe about the same
[15:38] <rm> thing is, it's a full-blown desktop CPU (~25+ watt just for the CPU)
[15:38] <Caver> yeah .. it'll be simular not the same .. plus the Pi is 700MHz not 600
[15:38] <dmsuse> i remember my old 233 mhz being fast enough many years ago..
[15:38] <Caver> but I figure .. it can't suck anyhow
[15:38] <rm> whereas ARM employ all kinds of things to simplify, make it cheaper and save power
[15:38] * IT_Sean is always releaved after a computer he has just been working on boots up
[15:39] <rm> also P3 perhaps cost something like $200 at launch
[15:39] <victhor> ARM11 is incredibly slow...
[15:39] <Caver> how ever the Pi will have a *much* more accelerated GPU, compared to my old laptop ...
[15:39] <UnderSampled|tab> 10 years ago
[15:39] <victhor> so yeah the P3 is much faster.
[15:39] <rm> GPU-wise - sure
[15:39] <dmsuse> i would love to find out exactly how this arm compares to an only intel in terms of mhz
[15:40] <dmsuse> only = old
[15:40] <victhor> MHz != performance
[15:40] <UnderSampled|tab> run a cpu benchmark
[15:40] <victhor> a standard benchmark must be used to compare different architectures
[15:40] <Caver> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BogoMips
[15:40] <dmsuse> victhor: 10 years ago it was true that mhz does = performance
[15:40] <victhor> uh BogoMIPS isn't a benchmark
[15:40] <UnderSampled|tab> we can test it when we get the raspi :P
[15:40] <Caver> annoyingly they say ARM = not enough data (yet) grrrr
[15:40] * robde (~robde@wlan-93-121.uni-koblenz.de) Quit (Quit: Gone.)
[15:40] * IT_Sean (~sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi
[15:41] <victhor> on the ARM boards I've worked with, BogoMIPS is always = clock speed
[15:41] <victhor> 500 BogoMIPS = 500 MHz and so on.
[15:41] <Caver> it does say in the wiki somewhere - just looking
[15:41] <Caver> 700Bogomips
[15:42] <victhor> I had a Cortex A8 board that was rated at 600 MHz... it would eat that ARM11 for lunch.
[15:42] <victhor> 600 BogoMIPS*
[15:42] <victhor> even though the ARM11 had "more BogoMIPS" - meaningless.
[15:42] <dmsuse> how did you test the speed?
[15:42] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: have you used that?
[15:42] <victhor> running something such as linpack or any other benchmark that does tests such as Dhrystone and Whetstone would be meaningful, though.
[15:43] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: the openwrt box
[15:43] <Caver> A8 is faster I believe - more expensive too
[15:43] <victhor> dmsuse, the Cortex A8 is much, much faster than the ARM11. ARM11 is rated at 1.2 MIPS/MHz, Cortex A8 at 2 MIPS/MHz
[15:43] <Dagger2> UnderSampled|tab: no, mine's still on order :/
[15:43] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: when did you purchase?
[15:43] <dmsuse> victhor: ok
[15:44] <Dagger2> Time: 2012-01-07 0:03 Total: $ 26.4 Status: Verified
[15:44] <Dagger2> (still only "verified" after 6 days? :/)
[15:44] <Caver> well according to wiki, the Intel III is clock * 1.00 for bogomips (I know highly unscientific) ...
[15:45] <Caver> so my 600MHz intel should be slower than the Pi, and I know LXDE works ok on it
[15:45] <Caver> http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiPerformance <-- interesting
[15:45] <victhor> uh, the P3 is a lot faster.
[15:45] <victhor> run linpack on it and compare the numbers
[15:46] <Caver> I will - have to wait until I'm home though
[15:46] <dmsuse> i will be interested to see the results of that Caver :P
[15:46] * matt0 (~matt0@60-241-58-23.static.tpgi.com.au) Quit (Quit: the game)
[15:47] * pizza-dude (~fake@dhcp-077-249-161-109.chello.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:47] * robde (~robde@wlan-93-121.uni-koblenz.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:47] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[15:48] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: well, I think I'll hold off until you get yours
[15:49] <Caver> can you get linpack for linus?
[15:49] <Caver> *linux
[15:49] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: how else could they have gotten those benchmarks?
[15:50] <UnderSampled|tab> Caver: read the page, it tells you where to get it and how to compile it
[15:50] <Caver> hehe fair point
[15:50] <dmsuse> http://www.netlib.org/lapack/lapack.tgz
[15:50] <Dagger2> UnderSampled|tab: fair enough. I'll try and remember to mention once/if it arrives
[15:51] <dmsuse> wait thats not it
[15:51] <victhor> apparently a P3 600 can do 1684963 Dhrystones/s optimized
[15:51] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: you should include my nick when you do
[15:51] <UnderSampled|tab> so I notice
[15:52] <victhor> that is Dhrystone 2.1 - http://www.roylongbottom.org.uk/dhrystone%20results.htm
[15:52] <victhor> About 2x faster than the Pi
[15:52] <UnderSampled|tab> the wiki has dhrystone 1.2
[15:53] <victhor> that site has 1.1 numbers, but they are even higher
[15:53] * Julian94 (~langlo94@ti0159a380-dhcp2028.bb.online.no) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 9.0.1/20111220165912])
[15:54] <Caver> right ... the laptop is being switched on ... .. the joys of ssh ought to mean I can test this from here
[15:54] * robde (~robde@wlan-93-121.uni-koblenz.de) Quit (Quit: Gone.)
[15:54] * jzu (~jzu@sete.opentrust.com) Quit (Quit: Kick out the jams, motherfuckers!)
[15:54] <Dagger2> UnderSampled|tab: I've set a reminder for it... hopefully a) it'll arrive and b) I actually get around to doing something with it soon
[15:54] <victhor> but it is worth considering that the Model B consumes 700 mA @ 5V, while the P3 alone consumes a lot more than that...
[15:55] <victhor> so the Pi is way more efficient, and the comparison above isn't even fair - comparing the whole Pi consumption with the P3's consumption
[15:55] * Pirx-Danford (5098eb11@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[15:55] <victhor> just the processor, I mean.
[15:55] <Dagger2> UnderSampled|tab: there's a thread about it on the openwrt forums where they were getting it working, if you haven't found it yet: https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=31729
[15:55] * sg3809 (~sg3809@78-105-89-111.zone3.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:56] <Caver> too right!
[15:56] <sg3809> hello!
[15:56] <RaTTuS|BIG> hilow
[15:56] <Caver> plus the wifi doesn't have sucky graphics
[15:56] <Caver> plus the *Pi doesn't have sucky graphics
[15:57] <sg3809> just bought the tenda wireless adapter for my pi!
[15:57] <Caver> I would love to explore the DSP installed on it too, but I suspect that will come a while later on
[15:57] <chris_99> will it definitely workin ARM sg3809
[15:57] * spiderdijon (~spider@spiderdijon.irconan.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:59] <sg3809> well in the raspberry pi wiki it says it will work
[15:59] <Caver> the DSP?
[15:59] <Caver> oh right - last I saw there was no interface to it ... well *yet*
[16:00] <hetii> did some of you know some other board that have better performance then RPI and cost not more then 100$ ?
[16:00] <Caver> quite :)
[16:01] <Caver> if you want fast - there a lot of things to choose from out there, they just cost more
[16:01] * t_dot_zilla is now known as vipkilla
[16:01] <dmsuse> hetii: but anywhere near 100$ is too much
[16:01] <dmsuse> i want the raspberry for one reason.. low power consumption
[16:01] <victhor> there is a faster board for $89
[16:01] * vipkilla is now known as group
[16:01] <hetii> could you provide link ? i need mount one to my monitor :)
[16:01] * group is now known as vipkilla
[16:02] <muhaa> truly want all of Rpi aircraft
[16:02] <Pirx-Danford> did any news site publish a story about the insane 3500 pounds bid on board #01?
[16:03] <victhor> hetii, http://beagleboard.org/bone
[16:03] <spiderdijon> hetii: what uses to you have for a RPi form factor device that needs more performance than the RPi (If you don't mind me asking)
[16:03] <victhor> more than double the price, still 256 MB but at least it uses a cortex a8...
[16:04] <muhaa> not to you as if you bought a Mars bar which is the only one in the world, and it only got you
[16:04] <hetii> spiderdijon: could you clear your question ?
[16:05] * stev (stev@114-42-69-179.dynamic.hinet.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[16:05] <spiderdijon> sorry, basically why do you need a higher performance than what the RPi offers?
[16:05] <Caver> ok just compiled linpack ... and it's now running :)
[16:05] <victhor> did I also mention the bone has only 1 USB port? :)
[16:05] <dmsuse> Caver: cool
[16:05] <Caver> Reps Time(s) DGEFA DGESL OVERHEAD KFLOPS
[16:05] <Caver> ----------------------------------------------------
[16:05] <Caver> 128 0.78 89.74% 3.85% 6.41% 240803.653
[16:05] <Caver> 256 1.55 89.68% 1.29% 9.03% 249342.790
[16:05] <Caver> 512 3.10 86.45% 3.55% 10.00% 252023.895
[16:05] <Caver> 1024 6.19 85.78% 2.42% 11.79% 257562.882
[16:05] <Caver> 2048 12.39 86.20% 3.23% 10.57% 253843.562
[16:06] <Stskeeps> linpack on where?
[16:06] <Caver> my P3 600MHz laptop
[16:06] <victhor> at least it has a real ethernet port - not a USB adapter.
[16:06] <Caver> which I reckoned was similar in performance to a Pi
[16:06] * Jimf82 (Jimf82@5e0ab7b5.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:06] <Stskeeps> Caver: ah, on hardfp armv6+vfp we get like 27000 kflops on it
[16:07] <Stskeeps> i think, let me check the stats
[16:07] <dmsuse> the raspberry only has 22000
[16:07] <dmsuse> that's a huge difference
[16:07] <hetii> spiderdijon: just as i said before i want to use it instead regular pc
[16:07] <Stskeeps> 256 13.43 90.84% 2.76% 6.40% 27969.239
[16:07] * Hopsy (~kvirc@ has joined #raspberrypi
[16:08] <spiderdijon> hetii: ah ok sorry I joined after that I think :P
[16:08] <Caver> hetii: I agree
[16:08] <Caver> but always nice to confirm things
[16:08] <dmsuse> Caver: what cpu did you just test?
[16:08] <Caver> so .. not a good test of speed then
[16:08] <Jimf82> im gunna use mine as a programming platform, no unlimited resources that way :)
[16:08] <Caver> model name : Pentium III (Coppermine)
[16:08] <Caver> stepping : 10
[16:08] <Caver> cpu MHz : 597.074
[16:08] <Stskeeps> also a lot less watt usage than a p3 ;)
[16:09] <dmsuse> so the p3 is 10x faster..
[16:09] <Caver> heheh yeah it defo uses a *lot* more than 1W
[16:09] <dmsuse> that is really dissapointing :P
[16:09] <victhor> it uses over 10x more power too
[16:10] <Caver> I'd imagine part of it, is that the Intel will have a real FPU isn't it?
[16:10] <Caver> label on the laptop says 40W
[16:11] <hetii> ok i need to go :)
[16:11] <Caver> but I can tell you one thing ... it can't play a 1080p movie ....
[16:11] <hetii> Cu :)
[16:11] <Caver> see you hetii
[16:11] * hetii (~lew@ Quit (Quit: Wychodzi)
[16:11] * nichobb (~nichobb@host109-145-47-201.range109-145.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
[16:11] <victhor> I think the VFP on that ARM11 is a "real FPU"
[16:11] <sg3809> exit
[16:11] * sg3809 (~sg3809@78-105-89-111.zone3.bethere.co.uk) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[16:11] <spiderdijon> Caver: The Rpi offloads that the the GPU I believe
[16:11] <victhor> what is missing on the ARM11 - which the P3 has - is SIMD instructions (SSE)
[16:12] <victhor> now if a floating point benchmark that made use of SIMD instructions was used instead... poor Pi.
[16:13] <Stskeeps> no NEON on armv6
[16:13] <victhor> yeah
[16:13] <Caver> whats NEON?
[16:13] <victhor> SIMD instructions for ARM
[16:14] <Caver> nods
[16:14] <victhor> it would be equivalent in purpose to SSE or 3DNow! on x86
[16:14] <Caver> anyway certainly for what I want it for, I don't need speed
[16:15] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca56ab.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[16:16] * Treybuchet (~treybuche@c-71-204-66-8.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:16] * BarryK (5211f3ec@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[16:16] <Caver> offloading maths to the GPU - not heard of that before
[16:16] <RaTTuS|BIG> ^ see opencl
[16:17] <BarryK> or CUDA
[16:18] <Caver> I meant on the Pi
[16:18] <RaTTuS|BIG> aha - not yet ...
[16:18] <Caver> bum
[16:20] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca56ab.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:20] <Jimf82> cold today :(
[16:20] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:20] <izua> winter is due march
[16:23] * Treybuchet (~treybuche@c-71-204-66-8.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: No route to host)
[16:24] <dmsuse> will gnash work with raspberry?
[16:24] * Jimf82 (Jimf82@5e0ab7b5.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[16:25] <RaTTuS|BIG> !w
[16:25] <PiBot> RaTTuS|BIG: in Runcorn, Halton on Fri Jan 13 14:50:00 2012. Temp 7??C. Condition: Partly Cloudy, Humidity: 71%. Later 7??C - 2??C. Condition: Fog
[16:26] <RaTTuS|BIG> fog - no! get away - bright and sunny
[16:26] <RaTTuS|BIG> aha later
[16:28] <atts> !w
[16:28] <PiBot> atts: in Waltham, MA on Fri Jan 13 18:56:00 2012. Temp 34??F. Condition: Fog, Humidity: 100%. Later 43??F - 23??F. Condition: Showers
[16:28] <gobby> !w
[16:29] <BarryK> !w
[16:29] <BarryK> boo
[16:29] <atts> type !weather_set loc <your zip>
[16:29] <RaTTuS|BIG> need to set yourself up with the bot
[16:29] <atts> or type /msg PiBot !help
[16:29] <Caver> gnash .. can't imagine why not
[16:29] <gobby> ah, was wondering how it knew where you were
[16:30] <atts> once you set up pibot he stalks you
[16:30] <BarryK> !weather_set loc BT54GW
[16:30] <PiBot> BarryK: You're location has been set to BT54GW.
[16:30] <BarryK> !w
[16:30] <PiBot> BarryK: in BT54GW on Fri Jan 13 14:50:00 2012. Temp 46??F. Condition: Partly Cloudy, Humidity: 71%. Later 46??F - 36??F. Condition: Fog
[16:30] <BarryK> thanks atts
[16:30] <Caver> one idea I like the idea of a *lot* is the add a camera and use opencv to do some funky recognition ... which might push it for CPU speed - but we'll see
[16:31] * devyx (~devyx@ip-89-176-58-212.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:31] <atts> np
[16:39] * spikey (50471d41@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[16:41] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:44] <Caver> hmm what do you think the collective noun for several Pi's is?
[16:45] <victhor> Pies
[16:45] <RaTTuS|BIG> or a wigan
[16:45] <Caver> a Bramble?
[16:45] <Caver> or a Tart ...
[16:45] <RaTTuS|BIG> a tart I like it - baked pi's
[16:46] <BarryK> Pi I'd imagine
[16:47] <Caver> mind you I gather the Pi bit if from "Python" ... so a hiss of pi's?
[16:47] <Caver> hmm
[16:48] <RaTTuS|BIG> rhyming ....
[16:48] <atts> they've been calling a cluster of pi's a bramble
[16:49] <Caver> cool
[16:49] <Caver> just me trying to kick off some conversation in here ...
[16:49] <RaTTuS|BIG> yeah .... though that should really be blackbreeys but i can live with it ....
[16:50] <Dagger2> well, whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it shouldn't involve an apostrophe -.-
[16:50] <Caver> ahahah .. yeah I thought that one, but might be some copyright issues with that one ...
[16:50] <BarryK> Well where does the Pi in Raspberry Pi come from? If it's from the Greek letter then the plural is pis and if it's from the mathematical value it'd have no plural
[16:50] <azalyn> Caver: no... i'm pretty sure the 'pi' is for ??
[16:50] <Caver> It's from the fact they're planning to use Python - it was in the BBC thing
[16:50] <atts> pi was for python i believe
[16:51] <azalyn> :|
[16:51] <Caver> http://t.co/XOOesZlp around 2:30 in
[16:51] <azalyn> but python is 'py' not 'pi'
[16:51] <Caver> thats what was said ...
[16:51] * Treybuchet (~treybuche@c-71-204-66-8.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:51] <victhor> I thought it was a pun on the pronunciation of "pi" - "pie"
[16:52] <Caver> that too
[16:52] <Caver> went very nicely with the fruit theme :)
[16:53] <victhor> I'm thinking of reasons to install superfluous hardware on the raspberry pi
[16:53] <Caver> *grins* well with USB there is no shortage of options
[16:54] <UnderSampled|tab> you need to be able to power the periferals
[16:54] <victhor> I have a extra 3.3V regulator on order :)
[16:54] <victhor> I already want to install as many temperature sensors as I can on the I2C bus :)
[16:54] <UnderSampled|tab> so either a powered hub or a better microusb power supply
[16:54] <Caver> I was thinking a nice powered hub would do well
[16:54] <victhor> I have 4 sensors on I2C already.
[16:55] <RaTTuS|BIG> if you have several pi's can you dasiy chain them via the usb ?
[16:55] <Caver> in power terms - yes
[16:55] <BarryK> yeah I'd have thought a decent powered hub would solve most of those problems
[16:56] <victhor> maybe I should install a little text-only LCD and ... more temperature sensors perhaps
[16:57] <Caver> nice I seem to remember something on the forums about a nice 2 line LCD you can add with out too much trouble
[17:00] <UukGoblin> hrm, lack of audio input is quite disappointing, actually :-S
[17:00] <UukGoblin> kinda rules it out for my radio transceiver project, or I'd have to fiddle around with usb :-S
[17:01] <Caver> yeah I guess USB audio card in, is the only option there
[17:01] <UukGoblin> also, skype-like apps will not be as easy
[17:01] <spiderdijon> maybe with the GPIO header?
[17:01] <Caver> as if the DSP side ever gets opened up, could be a very cool
[17:01] * prebz_ is now known as prebz
[17:01] <UukGoblin> spiderdijon, no, they're digital only, would need an analog one
[17:02] * Pirx-Danford (5098eb11@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[17:02] <UukGoblin> I'm pretty sure these cortex chips have audio in... pandora console, which is on a very similar chip, has a built-in mic as well as a line-in port
[17:03] <Caver> I thought the audio was str8 from the main SoC
[17:03] <Caver> which doesn't have a audio in to expose
[17:04] <victhor> the OMAP3 (Pandora) has no integrated audio
[17:04] <victhor> it requires a codec to be connected via McASP/I2S
[17:05] <spiderdijon> USB would seem the least hassle then
[17:05] <victhor> the SoC on the Pi apparently has I2S too (which is not surprising) and some forum posts suggest that some of the pins connected to the expansion header can be multiplexed to I2S
[17:06] <spiderdijon> maybe in the form of a shield?
[17:07] <Caver> ebay seem to do a cheap 'n' nasty linux compatible USB audio for ??2.99
[17:08] * IT_Sean (~sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:08] <PiBot> IT_Sean| Wahey! Sean is here! :D
[17:10] * chickey (02d969d6@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[17:10] <IT_Sean> nice older thinkpad just landed in my office.
[17:10] <IT_Sean> an R60
[17:11] <Caver> uhuh ..., what spec?
[17:11] <IT_Sean> 1/66 GHz. 1 gig ram. great display
[17:11] <IT_Sean> *1.66
[17:11] <IT_Sean> Intel Core2
[17:13] * br0tkasten (~slobo@www.br0tkasten.de) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[17:14] * IT_Sean would love to toss linux on it and make it his daily machine :p
[17:14] <Caver> do it :)
[17:15] * pizza-dude (~fake@dhcp-077-249-161-109.chello.nl) Quit ()
[17:15] <IT_Sean> Can't. 's a company machine
[17:15] <Caver> ah right
[17:15] * zag (526f17c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[17:15] <Caver> yeah I have a collection of work laptops on my desk I'd love to repurpose too
[17:16] <IT_Sean> I wouldn't mind the current standard issue ThinkPad SL410 either :p
[17:16] <IT_Sean> Sadly, company machines need to run Windows
[17:16] <Caver> well ... put vmware on top ... they'd never notice
[17:16] <IT_Sean> My personal machine is a 1.33GHz PowerPC laptop
[17:16] <IT_Sean> they would
[17:16] <haltdef> powerpc? :O
[17:16] <IT_Sean> yes.. powerpc
[17:17] <Caver> what Mac's used to run
[17:17] <Caver> IBM design isn't it?
[17:17] <victhor> let me see... you think people would try to kill you if you said you own a Mac? :)
[17:17] <IT_Sean> Yup. It's a 17" G4 PowerBook. Running Ubuntu 10 PPC
[17:17] <IT_Sean> victhor: i know there is no mac love in this channel. :p
[17:18] <Caver> heehh the *only* reason I've got a Mac here is so I can compile iPhone apps
[17:18] <victhor> x86 Mac != Mac
[17:18] <IT_Sean> i do have a brand spanking new iMac at home.
[17:18] <victhor> Macs are supposed to be PowerPC FFS! They were great! :P
[17:18] <victhor> now they're just PCs in fancy cases...
[17:18] <IT_Sean> But, my laptop is a PPC PowerBook
[17:18] <Caver> which OS version do you run on it?
[17:19] <IT_Sean> Ubuntu 10 PPC, i just said it up there ^ :p
[17:19] <haltdef> only ever used x86
[17:19] <Caver> 10.04 or 10.10?
[17:19] <IT_Sean> Ah, sorry. 10.10
[17:20] <Caver> :)
[17:20] <Caver> I know ubuntu stopped offically supporting it, and couldn't remember which release it happened on
[17:22] <Caver> I use the boot disk as a data rescue thing for ill mac's on occasion :)
[17:22] <IT_Sean> It happened a while before this release, iirc. Just because it isn't officially supported doesn't mean it is no longer available :p
[17:22] <victhor> 6.06 was the last official PPC release I think
[17:22] <IT_Sean> something like that.
[17:22] <victhor> there are PPC builds though
[17:22] <Caver> one of the huge joys of linux really ... just because the supplier stopped - doesn't mean your screwed
[17:22] <victhor> there used to be the "target disk mode" on Macs with firewire ports... I used to think this was one of the best ideas ever
[17:22] <UukGoblin> victhor, oh... I thought it was on the SoC... weird.
[17:23] * Coes` (~cxp@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[17:23] * Coes` (~cxp@ has joined #raspberrypi
[17:24] <IT_Sean> victhor: yup. And before firewire, we had SCSI Disk Mode. But you needed a very specific cable for it to work
[17:25] <Thorn_> is it out yet
[17:26] * Crippen (~yaaic@ has joined #raspberrypi
[17:26] <IT_Sean> Thorn_: NO!
[17:26] <haltdef> not long now
[17:27] <Caver> has anyone started a sweep stake on the release date?
[17:27] * Caver bets Thur 26th Jan
[17:27] <atts> feb 10th
[17:27] * IT_Sean has ??10 on the 31st
[17:27] <dmsuse> april 28th :P
[17:27] <Caver> ahahah
[17:27] <IT_Sean> dmsuse :|
[17:28] <dmsuse> i guarantee they will find some reason to delay it ;)
[17:28] * Coes`_ (~cxp@ has joined #raspberrypi
[17:28] * Coes` (~cxp@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[17:28] * IT_Sean makes that ??50 on the 31st and gives dmsuse a dirty look
[17:28] <dmsuse> lol
[17:28] <haltdef> rather it's delayed than ship with some terrible bug
[17:29] <wwalker> haltdef: aye
[17:29] <Thorn_> naw
[17:29] <Thorn_> i'd just buy another without the bug
[17:29] <Thorn_> later on
[17:29] <dmsuse> that's true, however those that paid 2-3k for their's on ebay will be mad :P
[17:29] <haltdef> they were manually repaired
[17:29] <Caver> ahahah true
[17:29] * Coes`_ is now known as Coes`
[17:29] <dmsuse> haltdef: repaid for known faults, but it's possible there are more :P
[17:29] * jmichaelx (~james@ has joined #raspberrypi
[17:30] <dmsuse> repaired *
[17:30] <IT_Sean> nah.
[17:30] <haltdef> those bugs will be in the final versions too then
[17:30] <IT_Sean> It's a raspi! it just works! :p
[17:30] <Caver> perhaps a better sweep stake would be in how fast the 1st batch will sell out
[17:30] <IT_Sean> hush you.
[17:30] <IT_Sean> I want one from the 1st batch
[17:30] * jmichaelx (~james@ has left #raspberrypi
[17:31] <IT_Sean> i've been waiting long enough
[17:31] <dmsuse> will they be accepting paypal as payment?
[17:31] <haltdef> I'm not holding my breath, can see them selling out so fast
[17:31] <Caver> paypal - yes
[17:31] <haltdef> if the server doesn't catch fire with the load
[17:31] <haltdef> especially once slashdot finds out :P
[17:31] <IT_Sean> dmsuse: payment can be made with paypal, credit card, or sexual favors
[17:31] <Caver> I know .. will be sad if I miss the 1st batch, but the level of interest does seem to be close to insane
[17:31] <dmsuse> ah cool, i know which method i will be using
[17:32] <Caver> LOL @ sexual favours
[17:32] <Thorn_> i don't think liz would be too amused there
[17:32] <dmsuse> k, ill take gert :)
[17:32] <Caver> awwww
[17:32] <chris_99> i bet they're going to sell out in 5 minutes
[17:32] <Caver> that was my plan
[17:32] <haltdef> a new batch could be ready within 3 weeks or so won't it
[17:32] <Caver> I'll take 15 mins
[17:32] <Caver> yup
[17:33] <dmsuse> how are they getting these batches? i mean surely it must be sent by boat not air, that takes a long time..
[17:33] <haltdef> good question
[17:33] <chris_99> maybe they're coming by air then
[17:33] <Caver> 1st batch subsidises the 2nd batch - hopefully they can do more than 10k's worth in the 2nd batch
[17:33] <victhor> like, 10 million
[17:33] <IT_Sean> not ten million
[17:33] <Caver> I gather they have to sell at least 30k's worth to make their investment back
[17:33] <IT_Sean> but, more than 10k
[17:33] <folays> maybe the raspi will have a flight module and so they will come to us by themselves
[17:34] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:34] <chris_99> i hope they release the schematic so others can fab them
[17:34] <IT_Sean> probably not going to happen
[17:34] <Thorn_> folays: now that is an idea
[17:34] <dmsuse> i think they have already made their investment back
[17:34] <IT_Sean> dmsuse: how, they haven't sold anything yet!
[17:34] <Caver> no ... Liz said somewhere on the forum ... they've morgaged their house for the inital run
[17:35] <Caver> and they break even about 30k
[17:35] <RaTTuS|BIG> ^ that will not be hard to achive
[17:35] <dmsuse> they sold those on ebay and have probably signed up advertising deals by now
[17:35] <IT_Sean> i think you are un derstimating the cost and complexity of desgning a new board. esp one as complex as a raspi
[17:35] <Thorn_> yeah it costs a good 50p or ??1 even to design a new board
[17:36] <Thorn_> the cost of designing the pi was free manhours
[17:36] <dmsuse> ^^
[17:36] <Caver> from what I gather, the idea of the Chinese copying them, isn't a huge worry, as it's unlikely they'd get the SoC chips from Broadcom as cheap as the Pi foundation has
[17:36] * Coes` (~cxp@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[17:36] <Thorn_> (and the alphaboard/betaboard manufacture costs)
[17:36] <IT_Sean> the chinese 'll just copy the SoC. They copy everyhting. Bloody chinese.
[17:36] <ahven> Caver: they aren't worrying at all
[17:36] * Coes` (~cxp@ has joined #raspberrypi
[17:37] <Caver> IT: heheh and then be unable to buy *any* broadcom chips ever again - thats a *huge* risk for any manufacturer
[17:37] <dmsuse> they can get a third party to supply them
[17:37] <IT_Sean> Caver: i bet they have already done it.
[17:37] * nichobb (~nichobb@host109-145-47-201.range109-145.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:37] <IT_Sean> That's what the chinese DO. Copy shit.
[17:37] <Thorn_> yep
[17:37] <Caver> copying chips - much less so
[17:37] <IT_Sean> Pretty much all of their really technical technology is copies of american and russian designs
[17:37] <Thorn_> they even copied the japanese' eyes
[17:37] * Thorn_ ducks
[17:38] * RaTTuS|BIG look for the ignore button
[17:38] <Caver> errr no
[17:38] <Caver> I think a lot of chinese are incredibly intelligent
[17:39] <dmsuse> i really hope i can get flash running on this
[17:39] <IT_Sean> Give it six months. You'll see an ad for the "New FungPoo Dev Board" that looks suspiciouslly like a raspi. 'sept it'll cost 10x as much, and stop working as soon as you plug it in.
[17:39] <Thorn_> smart maybe, intelligent no
[17:39] <nichobb> Well /ignore thorn_ didn't work what's the command?
[17:39] <dmsuse> i have never known a chinese copy to cost more than that it is copying?
[17:39] <IT_Sean> Credit where it is due. they are pretty good at reverse engineering and copying stuff. They just need to copy themselves some origionality.
[17:40] <Caver> IT: why would anyone buy the more expensive one though?
[17:40] <nichobb> After all what have the Chinese ever invented?
[17:40] <Caver> remember it's the cheapness of the SoC that makes all this work so well
[17:40] <Caver> bahahahah erm ... plenty
[17:40] <Thorn_> noodles
[17:40] <IT_Sean> nichobb: fireworks
[17:41] <Thorn_> laziness
[17:41] <IT_Sean> bad pornography
[17:41] <BarryK> Its hardly their fault they have a much better manufacturing infrastructure than we have in the UK
[17:41] <Caver> IT: porn - thats japan
[17:41] <IT_Sean> shit... right. nevermind.
[17:41] <IT_Sean> it's the japanese that do the awful porn.
[17:41] <Caver> aparently
[17:41] <nichobb> Www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions
[17:42] <IT_Sean> nichobb: 404 not found
[17:42] * IT_Sean hides
[17:42] <IT_Sean> :p
[17:42] <Caver> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions
[17:42] <nichobb> Drat
[17:42] <IT_Sean> i was just being silly... i didn't even see that he'd screwed up the URL. :p
[17:43] <Thorn_> so everything china ever 'invented' fits on one page
[17:43] <Thorn_> i rest my case, right?
[17:43] <IT_Sean> yup
[17:43] <Caver> a very long page yup
[17:43] <IT_Sean> the list of stuff they copied from the rest of the world would take 14 hours tod download over a dual T1 line, however.
[17:43] <Thorn_> and that's just for the text
[17:44] <Caver> but anyway back to the point ... Boardcom are not going to sell the SoC chip that makes it all work cheap to anyone else ...
[17:44] <IT_Sean> Thorn_: exactly.
[17:44] <Caver> so any copy isn't going to make them money, so unlikely they will bother
[17:44] <wwalker> Caver: marketing can get people to buy the more expensive but poorer quality product every time.
[17:44] <BarryK> yeah but then again they actually produce products, the UK is essentially a giant call centre
[17:44] <dmsuse> how much are these chips?
[17:45] <Thorn_> china will just find a way to put children inside CPU's rather than transistors, since childlabour is cheaper
[17:45] <Crippen> sadly, we brits have always been good at inventing stuff, but useless at monopolising on said inventions
[17:45] <Caver> shut up Thorn
[17:45] * IT_Sean (~sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi
[17:46] <Caver> Crippen: so goes the myth, I think we do ok personally
[17:46] * jmissao (~jmissao@unaffiliated/sundial) Quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
[17:46] <azalyn> japanese pr0n isn't awful.
[17:46] <Caver> LOL
[17:46] <azalyn> well... except for the censoring. :(
[17:46] <Caver> I think that was his point
[17:47] <Caver> even if he did get the wrong country
[17:47] <azalyn> apparently the censoring is the reason the porn is so 'creative' though.
[17:47] <Caver> ahahah ok thats a new one
[17:47] <azalyn> because since they can't show naughty bits, they have to find other ways to titillate.
[17:48] <Caver> meh ... you don't have to squint very hard ... so they not pizelate a while lot
[17:48] <azalyn> so they come up with strange plots, and really 'out there' concepts and fetishes to compensate for having censoring.
[17:48] <Caver> :)
[17:48] * Thorn_ (~thorn@osirion.org) has left #raspberrypi
[17:48] <azalyn> well, the mosaics are pretty bad.
[17:48] <azalyn> it's like running into a wall in doom.
[17:49] <azalyn> or a minecraft texture.
[17:49] <wwalker> anyone got a link to the pinouts of either the rpi or the gert board?
[17:49] <azalyn> the censor bars you see in manga are less annoying though, i don't mind those that much.
[17:49] <Caver> I defer to your experence
[17:49] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[17:50] <azalyn> you know, speaking of minecraft... wouldn't be awesome to have it running on the r-pi?
[17:50] <azalyn> it's a neat tool. might even be handy for education.
[17:50] <azalyn> people have built CPUs with redstone and stuff
[17:50] <Caver> wwalker: http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard#General_Purpose_Input.2FOutput_.28GPIO.29.2C_I2C.2C_I2S.2C_SPI.2C_UART
[17:50] <Caver> not sure the gert board is finalised as yet
[17:52] <dmsuse> i wonder how much the gert board will cost
[17:52] <Caver> heheh ... minecraft .. I guess if there is a opensource port for it
[17:52] <Caver> dmsuse: about $35 I gather
[17:52] <azalyn> minecraft runs on linux already. and uses java.
[17:53] <_inc> in regards to SD cards, what would be a good size to use considering average distro size and misc software install?
[17:53] <azalyn> although they use a library that needs to be native. but that library is opensource.
[17:53] <dmsuse> surely it can't cost more than the pi ?
[17:53] <WASDx> i'm intending to get an 8GB card
[17:53] <wwalker> azalyn: there is the problem. java will never fit in the Rpi's 256 MB
[17:53] <azalyn> maybe java embedded.
[17:53] <azalyn> ;P
[17:53] <wwalker> Caver: thanks
[17:54] <victhor> minecraft requires a lot of CPU and RAM to work...
[17:54] <azalyn> there's an android port i think
[17:54] <victhor> Java. :P
[17:54] <WASDx> wwalker: I guess it will run but not leave much space for the actual application
[17:54] <_inc> i have loads of sd cards somehwere in this room...
[17:54] * robde (~robde@p57903C80.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:54] <azalyn> by the way..
[17:54] <azalyn> [11:49:05] <Caver> but anyway back to the point ... Boardcom are not going to sell the SoC chip that makes it all work cheap to anyone else ...
[17:54] <azalyn> this may be true.. ^
[17:54] <azalyn> however...
[17:55] <azalyn> if the r-pi succeeds, some other companies might try to make their own really cheap boards..
[17:55] <Caver> well whats wrong with that?
[17:55] <traeak> c++ minecraft implementation
[17:55] <traeak> that woul dbe awesome
[17:55] <traeak> race to the bottom extreme
[17:55] <Caver> as long as they don't sell it as a Pi clone
[17:56] <azalyn> even though r-pi is from a foundation, many companies will smell money, and try to compete i bet.
[17:56] <traeak> the easy next one would be to sell a fully cased and power supplied rpi type system for about the same price
[17:56] <dmsuse> azalyn: that has already happened, a company is making a device similar for half the price of the pi
[17:56] <azalyn> OMAP would be a likely candidate. we might see a lower spec OMAP SoC.
[17:56] <Caver> there are lots of people making these kind of boards anyway
[17:56] <azalyn> dmsuse: who?
[17:56] <dmsuse> one sec
[17:56] <traeak> armv7 is the biggest missing piece on the rpi
[17:56] <azalyn> the specs are probably far worse though
[17:56] <dmsuse> specs are twice the speed
[17:56] <Caver> Pi just seems to be quite good performance for the price
[17:56] <RaTTuS|BIG> and it's not as cheep or available
[17:57] <dmsuse> http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/allwinner_a10_gplcompliant_computer_15
[17:57] <traeak> get under $50 on an armv7 type system with a decent open gpu
[17:57] <azalyn> open GPU?
[17:57] <traeak> dmsuse: that's been laughed at as pure vapor, those guys have no clue what they are doing
[17:57] <Caver> e.g. ...http://www.mini-box.com/pico-SAM9G45-X
[17:57] <azalyn> is there such a thing outside of radeon? :|
[17:57] <victhor> hahaha, "open GPU" - is that a joke? :)
[17:57] <traeak> open GPU, open enough to actual have drivers for it that don't suck
[17:57] <victhor> there's no such thing on ARM.
[17:58] <nichobb> Foundation has advantage in it's not looking to make major profit (other than to reinvest) and tallented people involved for free.
[17:58] <traeak> nichobb: they're paving the way to show others how to also do the same
[17:58] <azalyn> some people are working on reverse engineering powervr for drivers. but that will take awhile.
[17:58] <traeak> but i could see the chinese try this for $50 ... look at all those cheapo routers out there
[17:58] <vvvfjjuoghg> azalyn: intel has a poulsbo binary blob
[17:58] <azalyn> but such a project will probably get more steam than reverse engineering broadcom's proprietary GPU.
[17:58] <traeak> not a far step to just tweak the router case and the SOC and you have rpi
[17:59] <Caver> well I reckon if you think you can do better - go for it, and let us know how you get on
[17:59] <traeak> faster generalized CPU would make the GPU less critical as well
[17:59] <Caver> router's don't usually have a graphics chip/card
[17:59] <traeak> rpi is best out there for now....the next 6-12 months will tell if there's any competition
[18:00] <wwalker> WASDx: true enough, hello world will fit in 256 MB
[18:00] <Caver> I love that I can plug my TV in and be able to debug the thing fairly easily
[18:00] <traeak> Caver: it's all on the SOC..yeah, diff traces
[18:00] <azalyn> long-term it seems like ideally, CPU and GPU will not just merge on the same die, like they are now, but will really merge into one unit.. SSE/Altivec/etc will vanish and you'll just use the GPU directly instead of an FPU.
[18:00] <azalyn> for that though, the whole GPU would have to be documented.
[18:00] <haltdef> I am curious what the state of kernel drivers is for the videcore iv
[18:00] <traeak> azalyn: or more likely there will be a very wide vector unit available
[18:01] <vvvfjjuoghg> azalyn: also the New Cedar trail atoms have PowerVR graphics cores, so likely Linux PowerVR support will improve.
[18:01] * dattaway (~dattaway@adsl-66-142-233-129.dsl.kscymo.swbell.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[18:01] <azalyn> vvvfjjuoghg: i'm not sure how the poulsbo blob was relevant to what i said earlier. what were you responding to?
[18:02] <vvvfjjuoghg> azalyn: Bad PowerVR driver support on Linux
[18:02] <azalyn> hm, i didn't say anything about that though.
[18:02] <vvvfjjuoghg> Poulsbo is Atom with a PowerVR graphics IP
[18:02] <vvvfjjuoghg> s/a //
[18:02] <traeak> somebody had started reverse engineering the powervr gpu
[18:02] <traeak> but i forget how far he got
[18:02] <azalyn> i just suggested that people have started reversing it.
[18:02] <traeak> that was like 3 years ago or so
[18:02] * UriFabi (urifabi@office2.de.urifabi.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:02] <azalyn> well, it's a "high priority project" from the FSF to reverse engineer powervr.
[18:03] <traeak> i think about the early days of the pandora
[18:03] <victhor> of course, Imagination provides no drivers
[18:03] <victhor> the ones for the Beagle are very old
[18:03] <traeak> powervr has *always* been problematic with drivers
[18:03] <traeak> even in the old days when they were on the PC
[18:03] <dmsuse> where is the "bios" on the pi?
[18:03] <traeak> zero drivers
[18:03] <traeak> dmsuse: i think the GPU handles that
[18:03] <RaTTuS|BIG> dmsuse there isn't one
[18:04] <azalyn> i actually have a standalone powervr card somewhere.. it doesn't have any outputs or anything.. :D
[18:04] <azalyn> it's just a gpu on a card, with no connectors.
[18:04] <vvvfjjuoghg> traeak: PowerVR had PC graphics? What were they previously known as?
[18:04] <dmsuse> on the illustration it doesn't show the gpu, is it built into the processor?
[18:04] <victhor> "PowerVR"
[18:04] <azalyn> vvvfjjuoghg: as powervr.. same thing. :P
[18:04] <traeak> vvvfjjuoghg: kyro is the first one that comes to mind, that was the latest one i think
[18:04] <victhor> ST sold them. It was also used on Dreamcast
[18:05] <traeak> yeah
[18:05] <azalyn> i don't know if all the cards are like mine, but like i said, mine has no video outputs or anything.
[18:05] <traeak> screamcast
[18:05] <azalyn> so you still needed a 2D GPU card.
[18:05] <azalyn> for video.
[18:06] <vvvfjjuoghg> aha
[18:06] <vvvfjjuoghg> Yeah, I've heard of the STMicroelectronics Kyro
[18:06] <Crippen> azalyn, got one of those powervr cards too
[18:07] <traeak> i wnted one, but no linux drivers meant nogo
[18:07] <traeak> the architecture semed cool
[18:07] <azalyn> i wonder if r-pi will become popular enough for someone to try reverse engineering the gpu. heh
[18:07] <azalyn> 2D support probably will appear fairly quickly.. i'd expect.
[18:08] <azalyn> which is going to be crucial for kernel mode setting and wayland in the future.
[18:08] <azalyn> etc
[18:08] <victhor> the kernel drivers are GPL
[18:08] <victhor> the Open* libraries are not, though
[18:08] <atts> is anyone going to use the raspberry pi for game development?
[18:08] <azalyn> victhor: my understanding is that 3D is completely proprietary.
[18:08] <Caver> dmsuse: the isn't a bios as such - it a kinda weird boot
[18:09] <wwalker> dmsuse: the Allwinner... looks good but "mass-volume pricing ...$15" probably means sungle unit pricing around $30.
[18:09] <Caver> it actually boots the GPU 1st which starts the SD cardreader, reads in the kernel, and then boots the CPU with it
[18:09] * UnderSampled|tab (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[18:09] <victhor> azalyn, from what I read on the forums it's much like ATI graphics/"radeon(hd)", except with no open source GL libraries
[18:10] <traeak> azalyn: reverse engineering the GPU, no. reverse engineering the binary blob interface: yes
[18:10] <Caver> heheh from what I gather the Allwinner doesn't actually exist ... the $7 price is for the raw board, not populated with working chips ....!!!
[18:10] <azalyn> victhor: i don't think so.. i would expect it to be more like nvidia. because otherwise it doesn't make sense.
[18:10] <traeak> wwalker: they're full of crap, if you look at that link they have no clue what they are doing
[18:10] <azalyn> the *GL libraries are not the hard part..
[18:10] <azalyn> we already have mesa for that
[18:10] <victhor> my Radeon HD requires a proprietary firmware file to get acceleration on radeonhd.
[18:10] <azalyn> the gallium state trackers, etc.
[18:11] <traeak> the firmware file provides an interface though, that's good enough
[18:11] <victhor> the kernel drivers are GPL, but there's this proprietary file you need to make it work
[18:11] <traeak> considering all the GPU guys change everything all the time
[18:11] <Caver> Pi will have effectively accelerated OpenGL won't it?
[18:11] <victhor> I don't bother with it.
[18:11] <vvvfjjuoghg> traeak: link the allwinner again? I am too laggy to scrooll up
[18:11] <traeak> it would be wasted work
[18:11] <traeak> vvvfjjuoghg: i didn't post that link in the first place :-p
[18:12] <victhor> as long as there is open source drivers it should be possible to make the GPU work elsewhere.
[18:12] <vvvfjjuoghg> But you might be on a less latent connection than I am? ;)
[18:12] <Caver> http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/allwinner_a10_gplcompliant_computer_15 that what you wanted?
[18:12] <vvvfjjuoghg> Caver: Yeha, that's it. Thank you
[18:12] <Caver> though the comments at the bottom are a good read
[18:12] <victhor> the GPU firmware is "cross-platform".
[18:12] <wwalker> traeak: yes they are "evaluating CPUs"....
[18:12] * Laogeodritt (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:12] * nichobb (~nichobb@host109-145-47-201.range109-145.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
[18:12] <Caver> http://www.mini-box.com/pico-SAM9G45-X is better, but no accelerated GPU
[18:12] <Caver> plus it's intel
[18:13] <wwalker> RaspberryPi still sounds like the winner, although that pico looks nice if you don't need video.
[18:13] <victhor> "ARM9, 400Mhz, ARM926EJ-S"
[18:13] <vvvfjjuoghg> Caver: xscale?
[18:13] <victhor> Intel?
[18:13] <vvvfjjuoghg> victhor: Intel makes ARM processors too, the XScale series
[18:13] <Caver> hold on ... no it's not I got the wrong link lol
[18:13] <victhor> Intel sold XScale to Marvell
[18:14] * NIN101 (~NIN101@2001:530::216:3cff:fe71:5e1e) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:14] <vvvfjjuoghg> And that board has an Atmel SOC anyway
[18:15] <victhor> why do people keep fiddling with that "GPU firmware" thing? :P
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[18:16] <traeak> wwalker: "evaluating cpus" don't mean jack. if you follow the rpi and the pandora a *TON* of the work is in designing a stable PCB. what expertise to dthese guys have?
[18:16] <vvvfjjuoghg> Caver: Is that Allwinner... in a PCMCIA formfactor...?
[18:17] <Caver> no idea ... I know as much as you do
[18:17] <traeak> consider the allwinner stuff to be vapor, if they even get it going it'll be a year or more
[18:17] <Caver> for all I know it's vapour-wear
[18:17] <traeak> examples as always: pandora and rpi ... took months
[18:17] * bennoir (~ben@host81-148-1-84.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:17] <traeak> i dn't know how long it took TI to design the beagleboard, beaglebone, pandaboard pcbs
[18:17] <Caver> I agree
[18:17] * Treybuchet (~treybuche@c-71-204-66-8.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[18:17] <Caver> personally I think the Pi is going to be great .. and incredibly for that price point
[18:18] <Caver> and open from the start
[18:18] <traeak> and aparently haveing the memory on as POP makes the PCB immensely complex
[18:18] <vvvfjjuoghg> I agree.
[18:18] <traeak> which means these guys have no clue
[18:18] <vvvfjjuoghg> I'd like to see the Rhombus Tech one go somewhere though.
[18:18] <traeak> so if you guys don't mind waiting 1year plus for somethign that won't materialize, go with them :-p
[18:18] <victhor> if their board goes final, it will cost at least $40
[18:19] <rm> that's fairly optimistic :P
[18:19] <Caver> like I say the cheap prices were just for a raw board - no silicon on it
[18:19] <vvvfjjuoghg> I also find it very hard to believe that the PRC has produced a 1.5GHz CCortex A8 with hardware accelerated 2160p video playback for seven bucks.
[18:19] <traeak> the rhombus tech stuff will be vapro
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[18:20] <rm> vvvfjjuoghg, what's to believe there, you can order products with it today
[18:20] <traeak> when
[18:20] <rm> seven bucks or not, I dunno, complete tablets with that CP will be $130+
[18:20] <azalyn> victhor: i don't think people are concerned about the 'firmware' .. but rather, the driver blob, which will almost certainly exist from everything i've read thus far.
[18:20] <vvvfjjuoghg> It just seems too good to be true. I'd like to see 2160p30 video playback from it >.>
[18:21] <victhor> azalyn, "driver blob"?
[18:21] <traeak> when the RAM is included on the CPU package itself hopefully things get easier for making these quick rpi knock offs
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[18:21] <azalyn> yes, like the nvidia proprietary drivers on linux.
[18:21] <victhor> closed source modules?
[18:21] <traeak> victhor: apparently the vidcore needs ot have a binary blob loaded....it's like an OS for the GPU, that handles the binary interface
[18:22] <azalyn> yes... otherwise known as blobs. :P
[18:22] <victhor> yeah, but what's the problem in that?
[18:22] <traeak> victhor: from what i understand the GPU maps the rpi's ram into linear address space or something like that
[18:22] <victhor> you need that to get it to boot
[18:22] <victhor> it's not OS dependent or anything
[18:22] <traeak> victhor: i think the binary blob has to be loaded by the OS or something
[18:22] <azalyn> i think you're still thinking of firmware.
[18:22] <victhor> azalyn, explain what you are saying, I don't understand.
[18:23] <azalyn> victhor: closed-source drivers. :|
[18:23] <victhor> What I know is that 1. GPU firmware is required for boot 2. Drivers are GPL
[18:23] <azalyn> drivers are OS-dependent. firmware isn't.
[18:23] <azalyn> i do not think the drivers are GPL.
[18:23] <Caver> aren't all ati and nvidia pc graphics cards closed source too?
[18:23] <azalyn> Caver: not ati/amd.
[18:24] <azalyn> ati/amd has their own proprietary driver, but they also provide full open documentation.
[18:24] <traeak> i think it works this way: the gpu boots up, boostraps the CPU. the cpu then boots, then the binary blob firmware needs to be loaded into the GPU to interface with it
[18:24] <azalyn> for both 2D/3D
[18:24] <Caver> *ish* trust me my HD3450 board I have here does not work with the open source ones ...
[18:24] * vvvfjjuoghg would like to see a Cedar trail mini itx board.
[18:24] <Caver> and 3D tends to be much slower for the ones that do
[18:24] <Caver> trust me I'd love pure open source too, but defo not happening at this price point
[18:24] <traeak> Caver: that's not true. I have a 4670 card here that works just fine with the open source drivers
[18:25] <azalyn> Caver: i'm talking about documentation, not support. the docs are not "out-ish", they are out.
[18:25] <azalyn> amd also hires devs to work on the opensource drivers.
[18:25] <azalyn> and yes, 3D performance lags behind, but reliability is superior.
[18:26] <azalyn> 2D performance is also better in the open drivers than in the proprietary ones
[18:26] <wwalker> traeak: I meant "they've picked price points while still "evaluating CPUs"" which means they are just spouting dribble
[18:26] <traeak> i guess some of the secret sauce of the binary userspace driver involves packaging up the openglES calls into something that can be passed to the GPU interface
[18:26] <azalyn> even the 3D is good enough for compiz/etc. i can play doom3 and ut2004 on my radeon hd 4850
[18:27] <Laogeodritt> Question: Any idea whether the Pi (on Debian) will provide or have available low-latency drivers for the audio device?
[18:27] <vvvfjjuoghg> azalyn: Intel 945 is good enough for Compiz.
[18:27] <traeak> the newest open source radeon drivers are pretty good speed wise.
[18:27] <traeak> Laogeodritt: search on the forums for that. check the audio chipset, then look if the x86 drivers are low latency
[18:28] <Caver> I sit corrected ... RV620 support had finally been added *yay* ... took them long enough
[18:28] <Laogeodritt> traeak: Sure, thanks.
[18:28] <Caver> (my card) last looked about 6 months ago and it defo wasn't
[18:28] <traeak> hmmm
[18:28] <victhor> azalyn, http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/features-and-requests/bcm2835-datasheet/page-8/#p25804
[18:28] <traeak> must be more than 6 months :-p
[18:28] <traeak> i traded my 46670 out for a gf240 so i could run dolphin
[18:29] <traeak> probably will put that back in again
[18:29] <victhor> there are no X11 drivers as with PC graphics cards - same problem I had in PowerVR
[18:29] <azalyn> Caver: i'm pretty sure support has been there for a long time.. i've been using a radeon hd 2400 on another machine for well over a year now... with open drivers.
[18:29] <traeak> victhor: powervr was totally closed down, even getting 2d specs out of them was murderous
[18:29] <azalyn> Caver: perhaps it was just some bug with your card.
[18:30] <traeak> powervr was pretty innovative for its time
[18:30] <Caver> well all I can say was it spat out error's saying card unsupported
[18:30] <traeak> its just that they pulled an apple and basically forced themselves out of the market to some degree
[18:30] <azalyn> well, it could also just be your distro shipping an old version of the driver.
[18:30] <Caver> no this was compiling from the latest at the time source
[18:30] <traeak> caver: i have a 3450 somewhere and i vaguely remember early on that card may have reported a bad card id
[18:30] <Caver> aha
[18:31] <Caver> which could well explain things
[18:31] <azalyn> yeah. that could be it.
[18:31] <traeak> Caver: i vaguely remember for a while having to hack the kernel source code to add another entry into the kernel device ids or something
[18:31] <Caver> anyway I suppose my point is ... binary blobs for gpu's are sadly not unusual
[18:31] <traeak> Caver: but that was a really long time ago
[18:31] <azalyn> that's one of the most annoying things that the opensource community has to deal with... hardware that doesn't do what it's supposed to.
[18:31] <traeak> Caver: binary userspace blob
[18:31] <azalyn> reporting bad IDs... missing functionality... broken ACPI.
[18:31] <traeak> Caver: the rpi has a binary blob that loads into the GPU itself, not so different from a USB wireless stick
[18:31] <Caver> tell me abou tit
[18:32] <azalyn> hardware vendors have gotten in the habit of designing broken hardware, and working around the problems in software drivers.
[18:32] <Caver> yup ... one of the ways they stay cheap
[18:32] <azalyn> if linux became the dominant OS, that shit would probably change in a hurry.
[18:32] <Caver> even Intel do it for their CPU's
[18:32] <azalyn> since they wouldn't be able to hide their horrible designs anymore
[18:32] <Caver> what do you think microcode does
[18:32] <traeak> azalyn: not sure if that's true...android hasn't really made things any better
[18:33] <Caver> switch off the hardware that didn't quite work right
[18:33] <azalyn> traeak: that's because it's still in it's infancy.
[18:33] <azalyn> and android still mixes proprietary components.
[18:33] <traeak> azalyn: and companies are playing fast and loose with the GPL
[18:34] <Caver> I confused ... you think Pi is playing fast and loose with GPL?
[18:34] <Caver> or who?
[18:34] <azalyn> there's already pressure to provide more openness.. hence the whole "unlocking" stuff that htc and others are doing now.. where you can get a key to unlock the bootloader.
[18:34] * dnova_ (~don@static-64-115-137-219.isp.broadviewnet.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:34] <azalyn> Caver: mobile IHVs. who make android phones and tablets.
[18:34] <dmsuse> that is a good question, how is it raspberry pi can use linux but not release the code to the bootloader stuff?
[18:35] <victhor> you can use OSes other than linux
[18:35] <dnova_> also, what does the bootloader have to do with linux (or gpl which is probably where you are going with that)
[18:35] <azalyn> dmsuse: bootloader is not in the same code as the linux kernel. so it's outside of the GPL's reach.
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[18:35] <Caver> um because thats down to the people who make the chip - broadcom
[18:36] <azalyn> dmsuse: as for code that IS in the kernel, and not released, they're probably just relying on the legally-untested nvidia loophole.
[18:36] <victhor> besides it is pretty "dumb" and will load the ARM "kernel" executable regardless of what it is
[18:36] <Caver> victhor: I gather RISC OS (if you remember the Acorn Archimedes days) might appear for it!
[18:36] <victhor> I heard.
[18:36] <azalyn> nvidia loophole = link a binary blob to an opensource 'glue' module, and then link that to the kernel.
[18:37] <victhor> I wonder how much time it will take until someone makes a U-boot version for it.
[18:37] <azalyn> the theory is that since the binary blob links to the glue, and not to the kernel directly, it's not affected by the GPL.
[18:37] <azalyn> but this has never been legally tested..
[18:37] <Caver> what's U-boot?
[18:37] <azalyn> and it could very likely be found as infringing if brought to court.
[18:37] <Caver> binary blob isn't in the kernel at all .. if you want you can boot it just fine, you just won't have graphics
[18:38] <Caver> binary blob is to make the GPU work
[18:38] <victhor> no, it is to make the whole system work
[18:38] <azalyn> as i said earlier, eventually i expect to see a completely opensource stack for 2D-only functionality.
[18:38] <victhor> without it, it won't boot
[18:38] <Caver> ?
[18:38] <Caver> the BIOS is in the GPU's start rom
[18:39] <Caver> got a link for this - I'd like to read more
[18:39] <victhor> it just looks for the GPU firmware to load. The firmware does the real stuff
[18:39] <victhor> such as set up memory areas and load the "kernel.img" executable, then start the CPU
[18:40] <victhor> azalyn, JamesH posted on the forums something about the GPU drivers being GPL. http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/features-and-requests/bcm2835-datasheet/page-8/#p25804
[18:40] <traeak> crap the faq is too big now
[18:40] <traeak> noi...the faq page shouldn't have comments loaded into it, that's the problem
[18:41] * IT_Sean (~sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:41] <PiBot> IT_Sean| As long as the invisible man didn't leave invisible skidmarks on the photocopier, i don't really care.
[18:41] <Stskeeps> GPU drivers, in kernel, is gpl, the userland libraries, such as EGL/GLESv2 API is unlikely to be
[18:41] <IT_Sean> !w
[18:41] <PiBot> IT_Sean: in Boonton, NJ on Fri Jan 13 20:53:00 2012. Temp 34??F. Condition: Mostly Cloudy, Humidity: 50%. Later 40??F - 22??F. Condition: Chance of Snow Showers
[18:41] <PiBot> Sat: High 31??F Low 13??F :Condition Mostly Sunny
[18:41] <PiBot> Sun: High 25??F Low 13??F :Condition Mostly Sunny
[18:41] <PiBot> Mon: High 34??F Low 29??F :Condition Clear
[18:41] <vvvfjjuoghg> !w
[18:41] <IT_Sean> BOOO! COLD! :/
[18:41] <PiBot> vvvfjjuoghg: in BT54GW on Fri Jan 13 16:50:00 2012. Temp 43??F. Condition: Partly Cloudy, Humidity: 81%. Later 46??F - 36??F. Condition: Fog
[18:41] <vvvfjjuoghg> How do I set my location for weather?
[18:41] <haltdef> as long as I can use my own kernel with the binary drivers I'm happy
[18:41] <IT_Sean> vvvfjjuoghg: i forget. try !help
[18:41] <traeak> Is there a GPU binary?
[18:41] <traeak> Yes. The GPU binary also contains the first stage bootloader
[18:41] <vvvfjjuoghg> !help
[18:42] <victhor> libraries are not kernel dependent
[18:42] <traeak> now i'm curious what the step by step boot process is
[18:42] <victhor> nor X11 dependent
[18:42] <vvvfjjuoghg> !weather_set
[18:42] <vvvfjjuoghg> !weather_set Flint, MI
[18:42] <vvvfjjuoghg> !w
[18:42] <PiBot> vvvfjjuoghg: in BT54GW on Fri Jan 13 16:50:00 2012. Temp 43??F. Condition: Partly Cloudy, Humidity: 81%. Later 46??F - 36??F. Condition: Fog
[18:42] <Caver> right so I guess it sets a load of stuff up and then quits?
[18:42] <vvvfjjuoghg> !help weather_set
[18:43] <Caver> (the binary blob)
[18:43] <IT_Sean> try using a post / zip code
[18:43] <vvvfjjuoghg> !weather_set loc 48504
[18:43] <PiBot> vvvfjjuoghg: You're location has been set to 48504.
[18:43] <traeak> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/how-does-it-boot
[18:43] <vvvfjjuoghg> !weather_set c
[18:43] <victhor> it stays loaded on memory, because the GPU needs it to work
[18:43] <PiBot> vvvfjjuoghg: You're now using celsius.
[18:43] <vvvfjjuoghg> Sweet.
[18:44] * xe4l (~xe4l@gateway/tor-sasl/xe4l) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[18:45] <Caver> sure but you can dump it, and just work with the ARM CPU ... once your booted
[18:45] <Caver> with 100 GPL
[18:45] <Caver> with 100% GPL
[18:46] <BarryK> "We're not currently using a bootloader ??? we actually boot via the GPU, which contains a proprietary RISC core (wacky architecture ;) . The GPU mounts the SD card, loads GPU firmware and brings up display/video/3d, loads a kernel image, resets the SD card host and starts the ARM. You could replace the kernel image with a bootloader image, and that would work fine."
[18:46] <Caver> nods - thats my understanding too
[18:48] * izua (~izua@unaffiliated/izua) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[18:48] <Caver> "Yes, dumb framebuffer is mappable from the CPU. VC3 and VC4 coprocessor GPU 's don't have this as there wasn't an Arm to require the mapping!"
[18:48] <Caver> so by the sounds of it, you can still drive the screen with out the blob ... just not accelerated
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[18:49] <Dagger2> and you can't boot without it, but other than that
[18:49] <haltdef> are you talking about a dofferent blob to the one required to boot?
[18:50] <Caver> sure ... you need it to boot .. to be honest I don't see that any different than my lovely binary BIOS
[18:50] <Caver> it just happens to be read in from the SD card
[18:50] <haltdef> agree
[18:50] * spikey (50471d41@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
[18:50] <azalyn> binary bios sucks too though. ;P
[18:50] <azalyn> see ACPI.
[18:50] <Caver> *groans*
[18:50] <Caver> do I have too?
[18:51] <azalyn> hopefully coreboot takes off.
[18:51] <victhor> my ACPI works fine...
[18:51] <Caver> are we picking holes in all this for a reason?
[18:51] <victhor> maybe you use a crappy foxconn mobo with a screwed up BIOS
[18:51] <azalyn> i thought they were crazy at first, but seriously, coreboot is the future. it's the only "correct" way to design a computer in my opinion.
[18:52] <victhor> it doesn't matter - as long as it works...
[18:52] <azalyn> victhor: you think your ACPI works... but that's just what it wants you to think.
[18:52] <BarryK> yeah I don't see a problem with the current set up, it's just used to get things in order to start up the ARM
[18:52] <azalyn> it's luring you into a false sense of security.
[18:52] <victhor> huh
[18:52] <azalyn> just waiting to beat you up in an alley and mug you.
[18:52] <victhor> lol, none of my ACPI functions have broken so far
[18:52] <azalyn> because that's just what ACPI does.
[18:53] <Caver> oooh ACPI rape ...
[18:53] <victhor> so I guess you must have one of those Foxconn mobos lol
[18:53] <azalyn> like i said, false sense of security.
[18:53] <Caver> because it's going to break on me in the future??
[18:53] <victhor> because you can't see what it is doing?
[18:54] <victhor> I doubt it
[18:54] <Caver> I can't see the internals of the ethernet chip either ... why does it matter?
[18:54] <Dagger2> victhor: actually, yes, it *does* matter (but much has been said on this topic by people far more capable of explaining it than I am, so I'm afraid I'm going to bail out of the ensuing argument)
[18:54] <azalyn> acpi in linux only 'works' because of the ridiculous hacks that the linux kernel devs have done to make linux's acpi work like microsoft's broken implementation.
[18:55] <traeak> well MS is more than excited to make sure things are obfuscated in their favor
[18:55] <victhor> not my problem... bitch with mobo manufacturers
[18:55] <traeak> that's just PC stuff...
[18:55] <traeak> this new UEFI stuff is going to cause untold grief in the PC world
[18:55] <azalyn> it's everyone's problem.
[18:55] <victhor> if they follow M$'s implementation, that's because they expect most people will use M$'s implementation
[18:55] <traeak> apparenlty MS is demanding it for windows8 ARM tablets
[18:55] <traeak> that's really bad news
[18:56] <azalyn> traeak: are you referring specifically to secure boot? or uefi in general?
[18:56] <azalyn> uefi has been around for awhile now.
[18:56] <Dagger2> traeak: they're demanding UEFI Secure Boot for Windows 8 certification, regardless of processor architecture
[18:56] <Caver> I think he means secure boot
[18:56] <traeak> yeah secure boot
[18:57] <azalyn> depending on how stuff plays out, uefi could *maybe* turn out in linux's favor.. it could create more demand for linux-certified hardware. stuff like system76 maybe, or whatever.
[18:57] <azalyn> which could drive a "linux hardware" industry.
[18:57] <Caver> as far as I know there isn't ACPI on arm
[18:57] <traeak> thank god....i think it's because ARM has these built into the whole architecture so it's all automatic
[18:57] <azalyn> acpi is just software. so you could implement it on anything that has power management functionality.
[18:58] <Dagger2> azalyn: perhaps, but basically the end effect is going to be a) people locked into Windows, and b) the people who aren't are instead paying more money for the "special" motherboards
[18:58] <azalyn> Dagger2: yeah. but notice how apple has been pretty successful selling their own hardware.
[18:58] <Caver> dagger2: any reason we can't do the whole loadlin approach again?
[18:58] <azalyn> so i'm thinking maybe we could duplicate the same level of success.
[18:58] <azalyn> and kind of turn things around
[18:58] <Caver> it's not like linux uses the bios once it's up
[18:59] <azalyn> Caver: yes it does.
[18:59] <azalyn> because of ACPI.
[18:59] <azalyn> and some other stuff too perhaps.
[18:59] <azalyn> but ACPI essentially ensures that the BIOS actually owns the system, not linux.
[18:59] <azalyn> since the bios has to sit there in memory, outside of the kernel's control
[18:59] <Dagger2> Caver: loadlin... where you load a Linux kernel from in Windows? I guess that requires a kernel-level driver, which will need to be signed
[18:59] <Caver> if the OS (say windows 8) has started and we do a loadlin type boot, the hardware will all be setup already
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[19:00] <azalyn> loadlin was for dos i believe..
[19:00] <Dagger2> Caver: and besides, that still has the issue that you need to buy and run Windows just to boot Linux. that's not acceptable
[19:00] <azalyn> and dos had very low level access
[19:00] <Caver> originally
[19:00] <azalyn> it was realmode.
[19:00] <azalyn> that won't work in windows with memory protection.. i'm pretty sure.
[19:01] <azalyn> and with usermode/kernelmode separation.
[19:01] <azalyn> a usermode program won't be able to just load another OS.
[19:01] <azalyn> as Dagger2 mentioned, that would have to be a kernel driver of some sort.
[19:02] <traeak> our only hope is that hackers find a way to disable it
[19:02] <azalyn> we may have to just accept that microsoft has succeeded in fucking the linux world over on this one. for the PC market..
[19:02] <Caver> nonsence - has it happened yet? no
[19:02] <traeak> azalyn: actuallly this is *MUCH WORSE* for the hardware manufacturers
[19:02] <azalyn> all we can do now is focus on embedded, as well as creating a market for linux hardware.
[19:02] <Caver> might it happen - yes
[19:02] <traeak> MS is forcing them to limit their market
[19:02] <azalyn> traeak: how naive of you, to think that the hardware vendors have ever been on our side.
[19:02] <traeak> who in their right mind wants to artificially tell people you can't run what you want on their hardware
[19:02] <victhor> oh so you're one of those paranoid people that think the "evil corporations" are trying to lock you out of linux?
[19:02] <victhor> that is not happening
[19:02] <Caver> I can see various people in DOJ taking a very dim view, if they tried it
[19:03] <traeak> i wonder if gigabyte is happy they are losing sales, etc
[19:03] <Caver> or OEM's just provide the damn password with your computer ...
[19:03] <Caver> for the secure boot
[19:03] <Dagger2> victhor: they absolutely will. as my reference, see the various laptops that would support VT, except it's disabled by the BIOS and there's no option to turn it back on
[19:03] <traeak> yeah
[19:03] <victhor> so...
[19:04] <traeak> laptop manufacturers are bastards about that...they probably want to lock out anything but windows
[19:04] <Dagger2> (nitpicker's corner: obviously not ALL of them will. we get that.)
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[19:04] <azalyn> think very carefully about this, traeak. microsoft has just given hardware vendors a guaranteed way to do forced obsolescence of hardware, therefore forcing people to buy new computers. since when microsoft disables updates, it's permanent. and the new windows OS may not have the same keys, and therefore may not install on your existing hardware.
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[19:04] <azalyn> that can only be a good thing for hardware vendors.
[19:04] <Caver> you reckon?
[19:04] <Caver> bahahahahahha
[19:04] <traeak> azalyn: that's pretty cynical in worst case, but could very well result in the market rejecting these guys outright
[19:04] <Caver> talk about the sky is falling
[19:05] <Caver> I agree ... they'd be sued before you can say knife!
[19:05] <Caver> or certainly in the UK .. can't say for USA
[19:05] <azalyn> Caver: it's a pure logical analysis though... you're the one being a little too optimistic here.
[19:05] <azalyn> all you have to do..
[19:05] <azalyn> is ask yourself what makes money.
[19:05] <victhor> there's nothing the hardware manufacturers can do to prevent people from doing what they want with their hardware
[19:05] <Caver> I'll place ??5 that in 5 years time I can still boot my PC into linux
[19:05] <azalyn> because that's what business is all about.
[19:05] <victhor> if one of them does it, there are plenty to choose from
[19:06] <victhor> no users = no sales = no money
[19:06] <traeak> azalyn: business is about making money, sure, but the best way to do that is to let everybody win
[19:06] <azalyn> business is all about money. corporations have no morals, they live to make money. so if selling out linux and using windows to create forced obsolescence works, they'll do it.
[19:06] <Caver> I buy machines, if they tried that, I'd tell them I'm not buying that, and try again
[19:06] <azalyn> it's that simple.
[19:06] <victhor> making your users happy = users buy more products from you = more money
[19:06] <traeak> azalyn: when the strong arming starts, that's when adjustments are necessary, and propping up old business models is very harmful
[19:06] <azalyn> Caver: yeah, and you're not an important customer to them. because you're not the majority.
[19:07] <Caver> corperations are rappidly finding out that non-moral things, = bad rep = bad sales
[19:07] <azalyn> all of us here are a small minority that isn't even worth considering in their eyes.
[19:07] <Caver> azalyn: do you know how many machines I buy?
[19:07] <azalyn> i know that all of linux's desktop market combined is around 1% or so...
[19:07] <azalyn> so yeah. heh
[19:07] <victhor> no one wants to be forced to buy a new computer every year
[19:07] <traeak> exactly...the natural business cycle is that small companies who are successful are allowed to grow and replace dinosaur companies. it's a constant bubbling up
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[19:07] <victhor> no one will buy computers like that
[19:07] <azalyn> victhor: it won't happen overnight...
[19:07] <victhor> result = they lose
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[19:08] <traeak> when government interferes with the bubbling up with propping up certain models then the damage kicks in
[19:08] <Caver> sure .. but the *server* market
[19:08] <azalyn> like most stuff, it will just happen very very slowly
[19:08] <Caver> is a lot bigger
[19:08] <Caver> the money is in the server market
[19:08] <victhor> since they have no money, they need to cater to user's demands.
[19:08] <Dagger2> victhor: I'm pretty sure that at least 50% of people *will* buy systems like that (especially when it's advertised as a security feature)
[19:08] <azalyn> think of the whole directx situation... microsoft used to provide upgrades to older versions of windows... then they stopped. now they use it to force gamers to upgrade..
[19:08] <traeak> the server market will definitely reject that...but the server market doesn't care about formal windows8 certification
[19:08] <azalyn> i mean it's just going to be a slow transition.
[19:08] <azalyn> right now secure boot will be able to be disabled...
[19:09] <azalyn> but already there are vendors that have said they plan not to allow that
[19:09] <azalyn> and that will likely become more common as time passes.
[19:09] <traeak> here's teh funny part....intel's new medfield mobild processor *doesn't* support directX compliance, only opengles 2.0
[19:09] <victhor> it's not like "oooh it's the end of the world, I cant disable xyz on my bios"
[19:09] <traeak> definitely a shot at microsoft
[19:09] <victhor> no one will do that
[19:09] <azalyn> in 10 years, it could be that the majority of machines are locked.
[19:09] <Dagger2> victhor: heck, I've been in a good few discussions about secure boot, and I've always had people arguing that secure boot isn't a problem. apparently there are people that really, really like it! so yes, people are going to buy them
[19:09] <Caver> traeak: the server market *does* care about win 8 certification and also linux certication
[19:10] <traeak> azalyn: if in 10 years the locked machines cost $25 or less then who cares ?
[19:10] <Caver> and anyone who doesn't manage it, isn't going to sell many servers
[19:10] <victhor> idc, I can just hit "delete" on the POST screen, turn it off and act like it wasn't there
[19:10] <traeak> Caver: it seems like you can't be windows8 certified and linux certified at the same time
[19:10] <azalyn> victhor: by the way, no i'm not paranoid. i'm just a realist. like i said, this is just simple business. as far as they're concerned, this is just the best way to make profit. they care only about catering to the majority.
[19:10] <azalyn> and we're not it.
[19:10] <victhor> the hardware manufacturers are not going to give the finger to their user - except ATI
[19:10] <Caver> traeak: which will then have to force something to change, because I'm not buying machines that can't do both and neither will many
[19:10] <azalyn> except ati? what?
[19:11] <traeak> Caver: and we hope it isn't in microsoft's favor
[19:11] <victhor> cutting support on fglrx for old cards
[19:11] <azalyn> AMD is the one company that *ISNT* giving the finger to the user.
[19:11] <victhor> some of which don't have proper support on radeon either.
[19:11] <victhor> Nvidia at least maintains the "legacy" driver.
[19:11] <Caver> problem with ATI and they are owned by AMD and AMD are far from healthy at the moment
[19:11] <traeak> azalyn: not sure about that....amd isn't in any position to do anything for the users
[19:11] <traeak> their new processors are pure junk, intel's stuff destroys them
[19:12] <victhor> Intel is also 2x more expensive
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[19:12] <azalyn> that's because AMD is a really small fucking company compared to both intel and nvidia, and could not afford to maintain ATI's shitty driver for older cards. they decided to cut their losses and place their bets on the open drivers.
[19:12] <azalyn> a long-term strategy instead of short-term.
[19:12] <azalyn> they're only worth 3.5 billion or so, and they're competing with intel. which is like 100+ billion, or twice that much, i forget.
[19:12] <Caver> something like that yes
[19:12] <victhor> they screwed over their users
[19:13] <victhor> ATI sucks.
[19:13] <azalyn> no they didn't.
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[19:13] <victhor> their drivers suck... how am I expected to use their products with crappy drivers?
[19:13] <Caver> ironically nvidia linux drivers tend to work better
[19:13] <victhor> I just go to Nvidia... they actually work.
[19:13] <Caver> snap
[19:13] <victhor> I don't care about "open blablabla". I want my hardware to work.
[19:13] <Caver> the open source ones are as mentioned above slowely getthing there
[19:14] <victhor> if it doesn't work, I don't buy hardware from that manufacturer anymore
[19:14] <azalyn> well, some people care about openness. because that's where the future lies.
[19:14] <traeak> victhor: i can say with firm authority that a single socket sandy bridge e system 6/12 cores outruns a 48 core 4 socket amd server system it's really really sad
[19:14] <azalyn> lack of openness is likely the key reason why the industry has gotten so fucked, and why the r-pi project is necessary in the first place.. because PCs are now black boxes, and no one knows how they work. you don't have the control you used to have with stuff like the commodore 64.
[19:15] <azalyn> so no one is learning anything.
[19:15] <Caver> lol this is some way off anything to do with the Pi
[19:15] <azalyn> no it isn't, as i just stated. it's very important. and related.
[19:15] <traeak> azalyn: correct on those counts, the rpi is open enough to make it interesting
[19:15] <traeak> if i had time i'd love to explore experimental otheros onthe rpi
[19:15] <Caver> really - sounds just like your hobby horse that you like to give a good airing
[19:16] <traeak> the discussion we had about the gpu firmware is probably the only thing interfering with otheros development
[19:16] <azalyn> yeah but that is a tradeoff. in terms of cost.
[19:16] <Caver> can it be booted with the firmware into any kernel we like for ever ... yes
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[19:16] <victhor> the drivers are open
[19:16] <azalyn> so there is not much they could've done about it.
[19:16] <Caver> can I compile any kernel I like .. yes
[19:16] <traeak> and the newest announcement on liliputing.com omap5 is now at engineering sample stage
[19:17] <traeak> which means omap3 is just about on life support
[19:17] <victhor> I have a ATI computer... I have tried fglrx and it screwed up Gnome 3. I stopped using it and went back to radeonhd.
[19:17] <azalyn> by the way, while i do think microsoft *is* conspiring to stiffle linux development/investment with secure boot. i don't think it's relevant whether they are or not doing it. because the result is the same.
[19:17] <traeak> victhor: yup, binary ati drivers are problematic
[19:17] <azalyn> whether or not they are doing it on purpose or not... the result, that linux growth will be stifled as a result... doesn't change.
[19:18] <traeak> azalyn: we can only hope the mobile market explosion makes MS mostly irrelevant
[19:18] <victhor> nah
[19:18] <azalyn> so calling people "paranoid" or whatever doesn't really get to the heart of the issue. it's one of those "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you" sort of things.
[19:18] <victhor> I don't think M$ can do anything to prevent linux from growing.
[19:18] <traeak> and the mobile market creeps into the PC market and starts eating it's lunch from the low end with a new type PC that isn't running MS stuff
[19:18] <azalyn> victhor: i don't think they can *stop* linux, but i do think they can slow it down.
[19:18] <azalyn> and i believe they already have done so.
[19:18] <victhor> only building their own proprietary architecture that only licensed OEMs can use.
[19:19] <azalyn> see the OLPC fiasco.
[19:19] <azalyn> and other similar situations with poor countries.
[19:19] <traeak> the big kicker here: MS can't afford to lose market, their investors will freak freak freak if they can't show growth
[19:19] <victhor> OLPC was a stupid idea since the beginning. Too expensive.
[19:19] <victhor> extremely underpowered
[19:19] <azalyn> they've routinely interfered whenever poor countries announce linux programs, to try and get them to use windows.. like "we'll upgrade your whole network for free if you use windows", etc.
[19:19] <victhor> not useful for anything beyond "education"
[19:20] <dmsuse> i doubt windows will be around in 10 years
[19:20] <victhor> M$ can't afford to lose their market
[19:20] <victhor> so they need to convince people to use their products
[19:20] <victhor> it happens all the time...
[19:20] <azalyn> yes... but that's what i'm saying. they can slow it down.
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[19:20] <azalyn> and secure boot will be just another thing that severely slows down linux adoption.
[19:20] <azalyn> it will never stop it, ever.
[19:20] <victhor> how many offers I've got by calling companies to cancel some service they provide...
[19:21] <traeak> oh here's question: what percentage of clouds are running linux vs running windows ?
[19:21] <victhor> such as discount on Nextel by saying "I'm cancelling my account and going to xyz" on the customer support... :_)
[19:21] <traeak> these cloud guys are probably directly impacted by win8 and secure boot, etc
[19:21] <azalyn> linux owns the server world.
[19:21] <azalyn> secure boot likely will have zero impact there.
[19:21] <traeak> and the high performance computing world as well
[19:21] <azalyn> which is at least one point of relief.
[19:22] <victhor> so M$ offering free updates so that big customers don't switch is not uncommon
[19:22] <victhor> everyone does it - I had it with several phone companies, cable providers, etc.
[19:23] <Caver> large company does everything it can to keep customer shocker ..
[19:23] <azalyn> yeah but it takes a special kind of asshole to interfere in a charitable project.
[19:23] <azalyn> in order to promote their own products.
[19:23] <_inc> have i missed some important news?
[19:23] <azalyn> i'm curious how the r-pi folks will react if MS were to offer them to port windows to it. heh
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[19:24] <BarryK> _inc: No
[19:24] <traeak> azalyn: look at all the WINCE request pages
[19:24] <azalyn> i would hope they'd tell them to get stuffed. but the realist in me thinks that isn't likely to happen.
[19:24] <dmsuse> ms on a pi would be useless, it's just not powerful enough
[19:24] <traeak> it's probably unlikely
[19:24] <traeak> dmsuse: yeah, the MS software has tha tproblem, it's now powerful enough to do much of anything :-p
[19:24] <azalyn> dmsuse: the olpc wasn't powerful enough for windows either, really. but yeah.
[19:24] <Dagger2> traeak: thing is, people running servers will just buy expensive server motherboards, which will allow you to disable secure boot... I'm more concerned about the general public, who will be using Windows but might be interested in trying Linux out
[19:25] <traeak> Dagger2: definitely that's the problem market...however that market could start a class action lawsuit
[19:25] <Dagger2> traeak: if they discover it doesn't work, they'll blame it on Linux sucking and carry on with Windows
[19:25] <azalyn> Dagger2: for sure it will ruin the magic of livecd's and liveusb... :\
[19:25] <dmsuse> i don't mean the hardware isn't powerful enough, i mean windows isn't powerful enough lol
[19:25] <azalyn> we had a really great thing going there.
[19:25] <azalyn> with livecd's.
[19:25] <BarryK> You can't blame microsoft for peoples general ignorance
[19:25] <Dagger2> traeak: I don't see how they could... who would they sue?
[19:25] <azalyn> just pop it in, try it out.. beautiful.
[19:26] <Dagger2> traeak: motherboard manufacturers are in China/Korea, and Microsoft will just go "it's not our fault, blame the motherboard manufacturers"
[19:26] <azalyn> microsoft could be sued for making it a requirement.
[19:27] <_inc> linux is going the same as always though. the only people that use it are the tinkerers and the tinkerers families. joe average doesnt use it because its so confusing for joe average
[19:27] <BarryK> There is no chance even Microsoft would get away with locking motherboards to only approved certified OSs
[19:27] <Dagger2> azalyn: "we only required that they support it, not that they make it impossible to disable"
[19:27] <azalyn> Dagger2: still though.
[19:28] <dmsuse> _inc: that is far from true, android, chrome os, even apple is helping gain linux popularity
[19:28] <Dagger2> azalyn: yeah, in a sane world that wouldn't go through... but in ours? it'll work as a defence
[19:28] <traeak> here's the possible kicker...what if people want to run android on their PC's? isn't this push more a shot a google than at linux ?
[19:28] <traeak> i mean a copule years back google started chrome OS, etc
[19:28] <_inc> dmsuse: sorry for being vague, i mean desktop linux
[19:28] <dmsuse> _inc: oh true
[19:29] <traeak> and MS is all about stopping google
[19:29] <azalyn> Dagger2: well, antitrust in general is very subjective territory. i mean with the IE suit, microsoft basically got sued for bundling a browser.. which today seems like a silly offense.
[19:29] <traeak> so it might be that linux is just a side casualty in the MS/google war
[19:29] <Caver> or ... the chinese will provide 2 bios's
[19:29] <azalyn> in the end, this all depends more on who sues them, and on what territory
[19:29] <Caver> the MS secure booting one .. and the linux one
[19:29] <azalyn> if an american company sues them, or a group of american corps
[19:29] <Caver> sueing china .. that always goes well for the americans
[19:29] <azalyn> then there's a better chance than if it's a foreign company
[19:30] <BarryK> There is 0% chance of that happening, maybe in the US where consumers have no rights but here in the UK a manufacturer gets no legalling binding right to decide what software runs on hardware after its been sold
[19:30] <traeak> in asia they don't care...everyone pirates windows there so that's not an issue
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[19:30] <Caver> correct!
[19:30] <Caver> is china about to piss on that market? I don't think so
[19:30] <dmsuse> i have never purchased linux, i am disgusted that i have paid anything to ms whenever i buy a new computer
[19:30] <Dagger2> azalyn: slight hope in that they're required to offer a choice of browsers here in Europe... but that doesn't help Americans, and I'm not so selfish as to say that Europe will protect *me* so everything's fine
[19:30] <dmsuse> linux = windows
[19:31] <Caver> LOL
[19:31] <muhaa> uh what is the compensation for ARM repost openoffice?
[19:31] <_inc> will it see the light of day though? i mean this seems like the same controversy we had when plans for the paladium was introduced almost a decade ago. that didnt see the light of day
[19:31] <azalyn> pirate windows is very bad. all those pirates could be linux users instead.
[19:32] <azalyn> hopefully locking down of the OS will drive more people to linux
[19:32] <azalyn> if they can no longer pirate windows as easily.
[19:32] <haltdef> I'm able to use linux and pirate windows
[19:32] <haltdef> I don't ant linux
[19:32] <haltdef> want
[19:32] <Dagger2> _inc: this pretty much is Paladium, or rather one of the links in the chain
[19:32] <victhor> hmm, let's see.. I'm pretty sure that if e.g. I buy a dell computer and it refuses to boot into linux, I can just call their support, say I want to return the computer. They will do anything I want lol.
[19:32] <BarryK> no it wont, the general public will believe because it's locked down it's "more secure"
[19:32] <victhor> it always works.
[19:32] * rodrigo_golive (~quassel@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[19:32] <traeak> azalyn: i think MS realizes that they could lose asia to linux that's partly why they turn a blind eye
[19:33] <victhor> Nextel was too expensive. I called them, said I wanted to cancel my line, and they gave me a discount lol!
[19:33] <azalyn> Dagger2: yeah, it is. you can then establish a chain of trust all the way into userland. and then essentially your PC is an xbox.
[19:33] <_inc> secure boot hmmm. im going to read up on thi
[19:34] <azalyn> traeak: kind of ironic that china, a country known for human rights violations, might be a huge ally in this situation... if we could convince the government to just push linux everywhere.
[19:34] <azalyn> instead of pirate windows.
[19:34] <Caver> why is the government doing to do this?
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[19:35] <traeak> azalyn: dn't bet on that...they are more likely to steal linux, close it up and sell that instead with their own desire to lock in the hardware to their own spyware
[19:35] <azalyn> victhor: that is so naive. most people that call tech support and say they use linux just basically get told that it's not supported, etc. this isn't like getting a discount for nextel.
[19:35] <Caver> close linux?
[19:35] <azalyn> discounts are easy to provide.
[19:35] <Dagger2> azalyn: to be honest, everything's in place now... Windows has long supported a white-listing mode for executables, which could trivially make the run/don't run decision on a digital certificate if it doesn't already
[19:36] <traeak> azalyn: for them it might be more interesting to get the code from MS, recompile windows with their government backdoors then force UEFI on their population to only allow spyware laden windows to be installed
[19:36] <azalyn> opening up their keys to you instead would not be straightforward at all.
[19:36] <victhor> LOL they do not want you to return your computer and never buy from them.
[19:36] <victhor> they always say "It's not supported" until you say "I'm returning the computer"
[19:36] <Dagger2> azalyn: and of course we have the enforced kernel driver signing, which means you can't work around that with a kernel driver
[19:36] <azalyn> ... they're not going to leak their master keys just for one customer, dude.
[19:36] <azalyn> get over yourself.
[19:36] <azalyn> you're not that important.
[19:37] <victhor> you think so... well... they don't :)
[19:37] <Caver> surely the way aronud this is I as a MSDN subscriber compile the driver that allows a loadlin style boot, then submit it to MS ... *if* they refuse to sign it, I report them to DOJ
[19:37] <BarryK> traek: There's no need to do that Microsoft already sell backdoors to govs for market share and licenses
[19:37] <victhor> just saying. It always works.
[19:37] <muhaa> Over the space of a couple of days last week, I interviewed Peter Naulls of the Debian project about the recently completed port of OpenOffice.org 1.1.x to the ARM processor running Debian.
[19:37] <traeak> i'm shocked openoffice would even run on rpi
[19:37] <traeak> it's a bloated POS
[19:37] <Caver> DOJ not going to be impressed
[19:37] <BarryK> mobile manufactures do it too
[19:37] <traeak> i prefer abiword any day to oo writer
[19:37] <Dagger2> Caver: when your "way around" involves buying and running Windows, it's not a way around
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[19:38] <Caver> sure but I only have to do it once, for all people who want to run linux
[19:38] <victhor> no one wants to screw their users over.
[19:38] <muhaa> http://www.openoffice.org/editorial/peter_naulls.html
[19:38] <victhor> their users are their source of income
[19:38] <Caver> which is a little different to half planet unable to run linux
[19:38] <duckinator> traeak: you may like LibreOffice -- it's just as bloated as OpenOffice, but it seems to be less...broken... :P
[19:38] <azalyn> Caver: that is not a solution. we want to eliminate windows from our systems. not turn windows into a bios. :|
[19:38] <Caver> by your logic you won't be able to buy a machine without windows anyway
[19:39] * Ogoshi (~Ogoshi@5ad41351.bb.sky.com) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:39] <duckinator> the answer is to just not buy systems that force you to use windows. that simple.
[19:39] <Caver> I agree, I'm just refusing to think it's anywhere near as black as you think
[19:39] <traeak> duckinator: i actually meant libreoffice then i noticed openoffice was the one ported
[19:39] <DaQatz> PiBot now also supports Rankine.
[19:39] <Caver> anyway I presume from that you agree it would work - *assuming* secure boot comes out how you think it will, which is conjecture anyway
[19:40] <duckinator> traeak: ah :P they're both pretty bloated, i think...libreoffice just doesn't seem to barf in my documents whenever i have to resort to using it
[19:40] <Caver> everyone has woken up and realised that it could have happened that way
[19:40] <traeak> duckinator: i probably agree, doen'st mean i like it :-p
[19:40] <azalyn> secure boot won't be locked down completely from day 1.. but it will eventually get more locked as time goes on.
[19:40] <victhor> http://ozlabs.org/docs/uefi-secure-boot-impact-on-linux.pdf
[19:40] <victhor> if 4.1 is true, then I'm not affected
[19:40] <Caver> duckinator: Abiword is a bit lighter
[19:40] <traeak> "a bit" hehe
[19:40] <Dagger2> Caver: I *know* it'll happen, the only real question is how many computers will be locked down
[19:40] <Caver> and will probably get used instead - just like it is in lubuntu
[19:41] <victhor> otherwise, M$ is going to prevent anyone but OEMs from buying hardware components lol
[19:41] <traeak> Dagger2: i would bet almost all laptops
[19:41] <azalyn> also, you have to think more openly here... the fact is, vendors may not really MAKE it known which machines let you disable, and which don't.
[19:41] <BarryK> it wont because the second it becomes locked it creates a new market for unlocked boards
[19:41] <Caver> Dagger2: did you see my bet earlier?
[19:41] <azalyn> there is no guarantee that they'll tell you.
[19:41] <Dagger2> traeak: yeah, that's my bet too. at least out of consumer laptops
[19:42] <azalyn> so you'll end up having to look at some hardware compatibility database..
[19:42] <_inc> hey, is someone working on a RPi distro?
[19:42] <traeak> Dagger2: sadly that's probably what my next purchase would be...an 11.6" laptop with a 2xxx series i3 or something
[19:42] <azalyn> from the community
[19:42] <azalyn> to know what is 'unlocked' and what isnt
[19:42] <azalyn> :\
[19:42] <Dagger2> Caver: erm... the 26th of January one?
[19:42] <duckinator> honestly, if it ends up getting to the point that i can't go out and buy the parts to build my own system, and then put whatever OS i want on it...i'd honestly resort to building my own system from the lowest level i can pull off, without a care in the world as to if it's faster than something made 30 years ago
[19:42] <victhor> there's no such thing as a "Black box"
[19:42] <traeak> _inc: i think deadhat/fedora is ported
[19:42] <victhor> PS3's have been made to run unsigned code
[19:43] <victhor> and it was thought to be "ooooooh impossible to hack"
[19:43] <azalyn> victhor: you are so naive... you don't seem to understand IT that well.
[19:43] <traeak> victhor: with enormous effort and the platform is totally uninteresting today
[19:43] <azalyn> the PS3 was a stroke of luck.
[19:43] <victhor> nah, I don't care about this sillyness. Someone will find a way around it
[19:43] <azalyn> not every company is stupid enough to basically mathematically leak their private keys to the public.
[19:43] <BarryK> You wouldnt need to go trawling for that info, if company A is selling locked boards, company B will make sure damn sure you know about it and that theirs are unlocked
[19:43] <azalyn> i mean that is just epic stupidity on sony's part.
[19:43] <traeak> none of us here today will change the current market direction so it's a wait and see
[19:43] <azalyn> they just didn't know what they were doing.
[19:44] <azalyn> the xbox360 hasn't been hacked to run unsigned code.
[19:44] <victhor> it has
[19:44] <victhor> I know people who do it.
[19:44] <victhor> I have seen it.
[19:44] <duckinator> victhor: i agree. even if said way is to create an entirely new platform ('sif we need another reason to axe x86?), someone will find a way around it
[19:44] <BarryK> yes it has, like 3 years ago
[19:44] <victhor> People booting games in DVD-Rs.
[19:44] <azalyn> games are not unsigned.
[19:44] <victhor> it was hacked long before the PS3
[19:44] <azalyn> they are signed.
[19:44] <azalyn> games are easy as fuck.
[19:44] <Dagger2> traeak: well, I'm hoping the discussion will educate at least one person in the audience. that's why I take part in them... since it's about all I can do
[19:44] <azalyn> precisely because they are signed.
[19:44] <BarryK> xell
[19:45] <victhor> so...
[19:45] <victhor> duckinator, that is the only may M$ has to lock the platform down
[19:45] <traeak> victhor: it's a huge PITA to do it, same with the wii
[19:45] <Caver> Dagger2:no in 5 years time I will be able to boot my machine into linux no problem
[19:45] <victhor> but it is possible to do it.
[19:45] <azalyn> unsigned code is not going to boot on a 360. i believe there were a few breaks, but they easily just revoked the keys, and then poof. no problem.
[19:45] <Caver> for which I bet ??5
[19:45] <victhor> that was my point - it can be circumvented
[19:45] <azalyn> they use efuses to pop the old keys.
[19:46] <victhor> I know people who have been into XBOX Live with copied games!
[19:46] <azalyn> no. it cannot be circumvented, not on a 360.. not permanently.
[19:46] <BarryK> azalyn: they cant revoke the keys if you dont update
[19:46] <victhor> They haven't been banned yet!
[19:46] <azalyn> copied games are EASY.
[19:46] <azalyn> get that into your head.
[19:46] <victhor> so?
[19:46] <azalyn> games are already signed.
[19:46] <victhor> these are copies
[19:46] <azalyn> linux isn't signed.
[19:46] <victhor> it won't run copies.
[19:46] <azalyn> ...
[19:46] <azalyn> the copies are just as signed as the original
[19:46] <victhor> it doesn't work like the original.
[19:47] <victhor> You need something to convince the console to run the software
[19:47] <azalyn> that's only because you can't craft special sectors with dvd burners.
[19:47] <BarryK> azalyn, there are ways of making a 360 run unsigned code (NOT GAMES) get over it
[19:47] <azalyn> you need a dvd pressing factory to make an exact copy.
[19:47] <Dagger2> Caver: if you're careful about the mobo/system you buy (and possibly pay more for the priveledge)
[19:47] <victhor> they can try to lock down whatever they want - someone will find a way around it
[19:47] <azalyn> so instead they place the signing code from the special sectors into another area of the disc
[19:47] <victhor> it happened with everything so far
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[19:47] <victhor> get over it, secure boot won't lock you out.
[19:47] <azalyn> and then have to modify the dvd drive firmware to read the security data from there.
[19:48] <victhor> besides, it's not like *everyone* will prevent you from turning it off. Maybe Dell, HP, but not others
[19:48] <Dagger2> Caver: but you absolutely will be able to buy locked-down hardware, and I'm expecting a lot of people will
[19:48] <BarryK> Um yeah that has nothing to do with signed vs unsigned code, thats just copy protection, those arent the same thing
[19:48] <azalyn> BarryK: sorry, that is incorrect. the few times it's been broken have been isolated non-permanent hacks that go nowhere. and can be *permanently* patched away without the possibility of firmware downgrading later. this is done using eFuses.
[19:49] <azalyn> you cannot permanently hack a 360 for unsigned code. end of fucking story.
[19:49] <azalyn> unless their private keys get leaked, like the PS3
[19:49] <victhor> http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2007/Feb/514
[19:49] <victhor> XBOX 360 - broken
[19:49] <victhor> Wii - broken
[19:49] <Caver> nope I'd saying all encryption gets broken eventually
[19:49] <victhor> PS3 - broken
[19:49] <BarryK> of course I can all I need to do is crack one and stop updating it
[19:49] <victhor> secure boot - will be broken
[19:49] <Dagger2> victhor: the end-game for secure boot is obviously to prevent ways around it. it's not secure if you can get around it!
[19:49] <Caver> yes it's a pain in the butt
[19:49] <victhor> after all, they're "defective by design" :)
[19:49] <BarryK> MS cant magically reach into it to fix it lol
[19:50] <victhor> if you want more examples:
[19:50] <victhor> DVD - broken
[19:51] <victhor> Blu-ray - broken
[19:51] <victhor> heck even Macrovision was broken.
[19:51] <duckinator> victhor: i do believe you're referring to copy protection, which isn't exactly the same thing
[19:51] <duckinator> by the very nature of 'copy protection', the only way for it to succeed is to never make it. if it's out there, it can be copied.
[19:52] <azalyn> BarryK: that's not really pragmatic though... because if you bring it online, they can patch it. it's not a silver bullet. right now the percentage of those 'non-updated' units is extremely small... and anyone who's updated will never be able to hack it unless a new exploit is found.. it's not a permanent hack. unlike the PS3 case.
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[19:52] <victhor> I was thinking of those attempts to prevent users from doing what they want with their stuff
[19:52] <duckinator> the 'secure boot' thing, however, could be possible if they're bored enough and believe nobody will care
[19:52] <azalyn> where sony's private keys are out there.
[19:52] <victhor> they succeed for a few months.
[19:52] <Caver> the problem is the cat is out the bag and people guess what ... do care
[19:52] <azalyn> victhor: none of those examples are even remotely the same as what we're talking about.
[19:52] <BarryK> Why would you bring it online though? Its for unsigned code not copies of games
[19:52] <victhor> some are
[19:53] <victhor> Xbox, Wii and PS3 all can run unsigned homebrew
[19:53] <azalyn> secure boot is in the tivoization family of protection schemes. where you simply don't allow unsigned code to run. and that *is* a secure protection scheme that is unbreakable unless you get the keys leaked.. or you find a temporary exploit which is a pain in the ass to use, and gets fixed immediately in the next update.
[19:54] <Caver> yes little chicken
[19:54] <azalyn> anyone that says otherwise is simply uninformed on the matter, and on how encryption works in the first place.
[19:54] <victhor> ah I don't care.
[19:54] <victhor> someone will break it anyway
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[19:55] <traeak> boy i hope the rpi could capture the xbox, ps3 and wii homebrew crowds
[19:55] <victhor> besides, like I said before, only 2 or 3 OEMs with big enough customers will prevent the user from disabling secure boot on some devices (e.g. laptops meant for corporate user)
[19:55] <Dagger2> anyway, why are we discussing how breakable secure boot is?
[19:55] <Caver> I've no idea
[19:55] <Caver> was meant to be relating to the binary blob of the Pi
[19:56] <Dagger2> your own hardware shouldn't be doing things to you that require you to break things
[19:56] <azalyn> by the way, blu ray isn't permanently broken either. it's an arms race basically. aacs keys can be leaked, and so as long as we keep leaking them on time, and updating the rogue players, that will be broken indefinitely, but bd+ is a much harder beast to tackle. it requires implementing a java vm, and a specialized bd+ vm.
[19:56] <azalyn> and they use executable code to examine the vm(s) and make sure they're legit.
[19:56] <traeak> azalyn: i agree about that...breaking security is like an endless treadmill of one upsmanship
[19:56] <Caver> azalyn: whats blueray got to do with Pi again?
[19:56] <traeak> that's why i ohpe the rpi would be able to capture the homebrew crowds from the ps3/xbox/wii stuff
[19:56] <azalyn> so you have to constantly update your implementation of the VM to keep up with their ability to detect it.
[19:57] <azalyn> Caver: ask victhor, he brought blu-ray up.
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[19:57] <Caver> for a ??25 card to beat xbox????
[19:57] <traeak> i broke my wii but it was PITA, i'd never ask a normal consumer to ever do that
[19:57] <haltdef> slysoft seem to have blu-ray decryption covered
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[19:57] <traeak> Caver: the L25 rpi can beat out a wii for certain
[19:58] <BarryK> you do know the wii sold like 80+ million units right lol
[19:58] <azalyn> Dagger2: i'm discussing it because i want people to understand that there *is* a possibility for things getting locked down too much for even hackers to be able to solve the problem. people depend too fucking much on hackers to solve every problem imaginable.
[19:58] <azalyn> and in the case of tivoization, no one seems to understand just how bad it can get.
[19:58] <azalyn> because no one actually understands the technology.
[19:58] <traeak> BarryK: for $25/ea the door is open for the rpi
[19:58] <atts> traeak: that's my primary use case for the rpi, as a cheap homebrew console with good graphical capabilities and networking
[19:58] <traeak> BarryK: although a wiimote isn't exactly dirt cheap
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[19:59] <Caver> tivoization is all about trying to repurpose comsumer tech ... fair enough ... Pi is *designed* to be a hackers tool
[19:59] <traeak> atts: that's the rpi's foot in the door and IMHO the one chance it has for *going big*
[19:59] <Caver> why on earth would they lock us out?
[19:59] <azalyn> i had one of the original xbox hackers explain this to me, as well as having read a lot of stuff about it. and read a lot about the PS3 hacks.
[19:59] <azalyn> that's why i understand the nature of the problem.
[19:59] <traeak> atts: but to "go big" rpiv2 would have to have a cheap option for a nice functional case
[20:00] * Caver has tivo, and xbox with hacks on too, and understand it as well
[20:00] <azalyn> Caver: we weren't talking about the pi. this topic just branched off of the secure boot topic.
[20:00] <Dagger2> azalyn: my point was that "someone will be able to break it" is an invalid path to take the discussion down, because your own hardware should never need breaking
[20:00] <Caver> yeah I'm trying to unbranch it
[20:01] <BarryK> yeah my point isnt that someone will break it but more in that it will NEVER be implemented for general purpose computers sold to consumers
[20:01] <azalyn> Dagger2: yeah, but that's precisely why i'm arguing. i'm trying to get people to understand that if they want change, they need to vote with their dollar for open technology.
[20:01] <atts> traeak: at this point it still needs a community of developers to create and port games and provide a good interface
[20:01] <azalyn> not just pray that the hackers will fix everything.
[20:01] <azalyn> hackers are like a new religion... "oh, they'll hack it eventually."
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[20:02] <atts> i'd like to see maybe a standardized distro for a homebrew console
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[20:03] <BarryK> atts: the zerogame project for the PS3 from back when the "Other OS" option was still there might be a good place to start
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[20:04] <duckinator> Dagger2, azalyn: i agree. if an OEM does something you don't like, just don't buy from them. if enough people do that, the message will get through (even if they don't admit it).
[20:04] <victhor> ^exactly
[20:04] <traeak> atts: which would require good virtual machines, a good workflow for building and transferring to the rpi, etc
[20:04] <duckinator> that applies to all companies, really, but of course with some things the situation is a bit more complex
[20:05] <traeak> atts: i haven't looked into that much really
[20:05] <atts> BarryK, thanks ill check it out
[20:05] <traeak> atts: too busy with other stupid crap (well crap that makes me a living)
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[20:06] <atts> traeak: yeah gamedev is fun but doesn't exactly pay the bills, but it's been floating around my mind for a while
[20:06] <BarryK> it was a great project though I think Wah!Cade the front end it uses has been neglected for a while and might need some love
[20:06] <Dagger2> duckinator: yeah, I'll be doing that. but like I said, I'm not completely selfish -- I'm concerned about everybody *else's* computing freedom too, not just my own
[20:07] <azalyn> me too.
[20:07] <azalyn> which is why i think this "the hackers will break it" meme needs to stop.
[20:07] <azalyn> it's not promoting computing freedom to do that.
[20:07] <traeak> atts: getting hte humble bumble guys on board for rpi releases would be a very good first step
[20:08] <duckinator> Dagger2: yea, i get that. i've been trying to get some of my friends to try Linux just so they know there's usable alternatives if they start getting pissed at Microsoft. it's better than them sitting there complaining that their computer is (quite literally, in some cases) fighting them
[20:08] <azalyn> duckinator: be careful when you do that though. they have to understand that not all hardware will necessarily work out of the box.. sometimes wifi is an issue for example..
[20:09] <azalyn> you don't want to set them up for disappointment.
[20:09] <azalyn> that's what makes livecd's so nice i find
[20:09] <azalyn> since you can try before installing
[20:09] <traeak> liveusb's
[20:09] <traeak> cd's are so 00's
[20:10] <atts> traeak: interesting, might require some sort of payment system though which would complicate things at first
[20:10] <traeak> atts: yeah i haven't burned much thought on how to make that happen honestly
[20:11] <traeak> atts: lack of usb ports for having semi permanent external storage is a PITA
[20:12] <traeak> and frankly i doubt an 8GB sd card is big enough to hold an acceptable nubmer of games
[20:12] <duckinator> azalyn: yea, i've been talking them through getting their own livecd/liveusb setups to play with for both archlinux and ubuntu, since those are the two i can help them with. i figure if they don't like ubuntu, arch's probably a bit easier for them to tweak. i usually end up having to get games working for them, but i figure that's a small price to pay considering one steam works in wine it tends to continue working
[20:13] <duckinator> once*
[20:13] <duckinator> (and only one of them plays games on something besides steam :P)
[20:13] <atts> traeak: it would be cool to have an online repository of games that you can swap out on your sd card, similar to apt-get or yum
[20:14] <ReggieUK> wubi is easy to use too
[20:15] <duckinator> atts: you can create a third-party repository (i've done that on arch, but know it's possible for the other two as well). not sure what you mean by 'that you can swap out on your sd card', though
[20:15] <ReggieUK> allows them to try the full experience without affecting their windows OS (apart from the virtual disk space that you would need)
[20:15] <ReggieUK> or better still, use a VM
[20:16] <atts> duckinator: swap out games so you only have to keep a single game on your SD card at a time, allowing them to use most of the 8GB or however big your card is
[20:16] <duckinator> ReggieUK: yea, i've just been having them use that for ubuntu, and just letting them use one of my old HDs when trying arch (since afaik nothing similar to wubi exists)
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[20:16] <traeak> duckinator: decent games with good art tend to push hundreds of megabytes, that can push an sd-card's capacity
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[20:16] <atts> but yeah, creating a third-party repository for raspi games would be a good idea
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[20:17] <duckinator> atts, traeak: ah. gotcha ;P
[20:17] <traeak> you'd want to do something like what theND guy wanted to do, have an app store where games can be purchased
[20:17] <traeak> but i really hate giving out my credit card for stuff like that
[20:17] * duckinator doesn't really think much about the size of games since he's got a 1TB hd. might need to change that ^^
[20:19] <atts> when money is involved, liability also goes up a bit too
[20:19] <atts> making sure that the whole process is secure
[20:22] <duckinator> well we could always go the simple way, at least at first, and just add free/open-source games (possibly one repo for free-but-proprietary and one for FOSS, to keep the people who are really picky about open-source stuff happy?)
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[20:27] <atts> duckinator: sounds like a good idea
[20:27] <azalyn> gaming is one of those businesses that just maps so elegantly to opensource. it's actually shocking that it hasn't taken off...
[20:28] <victhor> Didn't ubuntu have something like that?
[20:28] <azalyn> i guess that's why microsoft spends so much in directx, to discourage competition.
[20:28] <victhor> on the "software center" thing you can buy some paid games
[20:28] <duckinator> archlinux actually had a third-party game repository at one point, might still exist. let me check
[20:28] <azalyn> even the FSF has never requested that *content* needs to be opensource. only the engine source code.
[20:28] <azalyn> so you could still make money with opensource games.
[20:29] <azalyn> by selling the content which is proprietary
[20:29] <azalyn> and have an open engine.
[20:29] <victhor> ID does that. it works for them, apparently
[20:29] <victhor> guess other people don't do it because they don't want people seeing their messy coding :P
[20:29] <azalyn> yeah, although it's different because they wait at least like 4-5 years before opening up the engine.
[20:29] <piofcube> You don't even have to do that... you can make money from OpenSource as long as it does not exclude commercial use.
[20:30] <piofcube> The licence does not exclude it I mean
[20:30] <victhor> maybe there is the "I don't want the competition to figure out how I implemented xyz feature"
[20:30] <victhor> reason
[20:30] <azalyn> piofcube: yeah but with usual software, if it's opensource, then the code is free. you can only sell services really..
[20:30] <azalyn> to make money.
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[20:30] <azalyn> with games, the fact that the content is the actual game makes it a little easier to monetize.
[20:31] <BarryK> that and making a "full" game is incredibly time consuming and very complex for a small team
[20:31] <piofcube> azalyn: Ture but look at the typical business model of many games these days... Buy the game then buy extra weapon slots or the ability to wear a hat (at a price).
[20:31] <piofcube> true**
[20:31] <victhor> I see no reason to close source other than to "prevent liability such as patent infringement" or "I don't want the competition to figure out how I implemented xyz feature"
[20:32] <duckinator> atts: seems the game repo for arch died out years ago :\
[20:32] <azalyn> piofcube: that's why i'm saying that game business models map very nicely to opensource.
[20:32] <azalyn> since the engine isn't as important
[20:32] <BarryK> "I don't want the competition to figure out how I implemented xyz feature" should not be a reason to close source, it's why we're in this hole to begin with
[20:33] <piofcube> azalyn: That's one of the purposes of the non-profit I am chair of... Providing a repository of OpenSource content that can be used in games and other media.
[20:33] <traeak> i really do like rpg's ,etc i liked the baldur's gate stuff on console
[20:33] <duckinator> atts: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Games could be of interest. apparently arch has more games than i thought (which is funny, since it's the only OS i've used [outside of a VM] for years ;P)
[20:33] <victhor> when 80% of their public cares about this, they will do it. Otherwise, it just isn't worth it :P
[20:33] <traeak> buying something like taht doesn't bother me
[20:33] <azalyn> piofcube: what is it?
[20:33] <atts> duckinator: is there any info on hosting third-party repos for arch? i tried finding it a while ago with no luck
[20:34] <piofcube> Open Indie Project Dot Org
[20:34] <piofcube> We're just in Alpha at the moment
[20:35] <azalyn> piofcube: you really should support CC0 also.
[20:35] <azalyn> not just cc-by-sa.
[20:35] <azalyn> cc0 = public domain
[20:35] <duckinator> atts: it's pretty simple, let me see if i can find something on their wiki
[20:35] <traeak> you would hope these big game studios would like being able to sell their games without worrying if the end user has spent $400 on console + all the extra crap
[20:35] <piofcube> For the repository... That could start causing confusion though.
[20:35] <traeak> oh well
[20:37] <duckinator> atts: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman_Tips#Custom_local_repository looks to be what you need
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[20:38] <atts> duckinator: thanks
[20:38] <BarryK> Well the move towards digital stores for the larger publishers is good in their eyes because it allows them more control over the selling price of their software (artificially inflating it), it's pretty much the sole reason for their demonising 2nd hand sales and why the digital stores don't release sales figures
[20:38] * ShiftPlusOne (~Shift@124-168-216-94.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:38] <PiBot> ShiftPlusOne| well we're running out of corners and the stoopid people corner is mine! >=/
[20:40] <duckinator> well that's fun...apparently ArchLinux runs on the Gamecube and the Wii
[20:45] <traeak> neither piece of hardware is interesting for anythiong other than games
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[20:48] <ShiftPlusOne> I don't think they're interesting for games either =/
[20:48] <BarryK> the wii is kind of cool for messing with the wiimote but it has a very small amount of ram and there are tools now for using a PC to do that
[20:48] <traeak> which also means the wiimote will work on an rpi
[20:49] <ShiftPlusOne> I think the only cool thing I've seen the wiimote used for was 3d modelling when used with a kinect and a 3d monitor.
[20:49] <ShiftPlusOne> but that might not have been a wiimote
[20:50] * kcj (~casey@unaffiliated/kcj1993) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:51] <BarryK> Ive seen some pretty cool uses for the wiimote like head tracking and as a presentation mouse
[20:51] <haltdef> so guys, anyone experienced linux runnong off of an SD card before? any recommended brands? all cards I have now have pretty bad random write speeds, 200KB/s at best, 17KB/s at worse
[20:51] <ShiftPlusOne> head tracking? you tape it to your head or something?
[20:51] <Stskeeps> haltdef: class 6 and above
[20:51] <BarryK> oddly enough pretty much lol
[20:52] <haltdef> class only guarantees sequential write doesn't it
[20:52] <traeak> haltdef: forums for that one :-p
[20:52] <BarryK> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw
[20:52] <haltdef> my class 4 card does 10MB/s write 25MB/s read but I don't want to think about the randoms :<
[20:52] <traeak> haltdef: someone on the forums posted a link to some real speed tests
[20:52] <haltdef> 2 iops per week
[20:52] <ShiftPlusOne> that's the video I was thinking of... yup, that's a wiimote. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fZJoKRjJBg
[20:52] <haltdef> iopw!
[20:52] <traeak> the problem is that what manufacturers advertise and what they deliver are vastly different
[20:53] <BarryK> uses the wiimote and a 2D screen to redraw the image relative to the persons eye position giving a very convincing 3D effect
[20:53] <haltdef> they don't tend to advertise random at all
[20:53] <haltdef> don't think they ever intended us nutters running our OS on one
[20:54] <traeak> haltdef: mostly true
[20:54] <traeak> probably the nook color folks have a good idea about what cards to use/not use
[20:54] * nils_2 (~nils_2@gateway/tor-sasl/nils2/x-72512466) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:54] <traeak> nook color has an option to run custom firmware from the sd card itself since nook color boots the external card by default
[20:55] <victhor> cool!
[20:55] <victhor> well, I know Sandisk works well with ARM boards, and I heard Patriot cards are finicky
[20:56] <traeak> http://www.reddit.com/r/nookcolor/
[20:56] <traeak> blam, first reddit post...sd card stability (micro, mind you)
[20:57] <haltdef> I'd rather have a micro in an adapter than full sized for raspi tbh
[20:57] <traeak> i have one of those sitting here right now
[20:57] <haltdef> I just bought two from ebay for 99p
[20:57] <traeak> came with my last newegg purchase
[20:57] <traeak> gskill so it's probably junk
[20:57] <haltdef> they die on me a lot for some reason
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[20:58] <traeak> i have arch linux on an original acer aspire one
[20:58] <haltdef> I leave them empty in the laptop's card reader, mebbe it gets more of a beating than I'd think
[20:58] <haltdef> on an sd? :o
[20:58] <traeak> it's possible to tweak linux to keep it from writing like mad internally
[20:58] <traeak> stupid firefox updates turn that crap back on
[20:59] <haltdef> my netbook came with a fairly naff pata zif ssd
[21:04] <Dagger2> haltdef: oh dear, I have one of those (an Acer Aspire One, A110L or something around there)
[21:04] <haltdef> could be worse, still beats a 4200rpm spinner
[21:04] <Dagger2> benchmarks at 50 kB/s random write speed or so, which causes random hanging, and because it's PATA it's a pain to replace :(
[21:04] <Dagger2> no, it doesn't
[21:05] <haltdef> mine still manages a few megs a second random write I think :P
[21:06] <Dagger2> I bought it from a friend, who swapped the SSD out for a 1.8" iPod drive, which was probably 4.2k
[21:06] <Dagger2> and that iPod drive was *way* better than the SSD
[21:07] <haltdef> 1.2MB/s apparently
[21:07] <Dagger2> (I swapped back because the drive kept disconnecting, and because of power/noise... but the SSD is unpleasant to use)
[21:09] <Dagger2> (are you testing on Windows? I need something for testing SD card speed on Linux)
[21:10] <haltdef> yeah I am
[21:10] <Dagger2> I have a card here that gets 80 kB/s in CrystalDiskMark, and 450 kB/s in iozone3. which confuses me a bit
[21:10] <haltdef> seems sandisk 8GB class 2 micro is the way to go
[21:10] <haltdef> I'll see how the cards I have now behave in the raspi when I get it, skint atm
[21:11] <Dagger2> my card is a sandisk 8GB class 4 micro (which I think are relabelled class 2s), so that might not be a guarantee :/
[21:13] * smjms (~janne@dyn2-212-50-133-158.psoas.suomi.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:15] <dmsuse> why not a class 10?
[21:16] <Dagger2> because class 10 cards have random 4k write speeds of around 20 kB/s
[21:17] <chris_99> thats not true Dagger2!!!!
[21:18] <chris_99> maybe you're using very poor memory cards
[21:18] <atts> uh oh
[21:18] <Dagger2> point me to some benchmarks that contradict me then
[21:18] <chris_99> i've used them myself
[21:18] <haltdef> depends on the card probably
[21:18] <WASDx> I think the burden of proof is on Dagger2 actually, you made a statement
[21:18] <Dagger2> http://www.amazon.com/review/RHIFJNKP8RN6J
[21:18] <Dagger2> http://forum.archosfans.com/viewtopic.php?p=293649#p293649
[21:18] <chris_99> please can you stop telling people this, as its blatantly not true Dagger2
[21:18] <Dagger2> http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-3d/351041-micro-sdhc-card-discussion-evo-3d-4.html#post3219489
[21:19] <haltdef> class 10 just means you're guaranteed 10MB/s sequential writes, nothing else
[21:19] <Dagger2> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1549/2/
[21:19] <Dagger2> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=13991898&postcount=144
[21:19] <Dagger2> http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1582172
[21:19] <Dagger2> there's a few
[21:19] <chris_99> did you even read what that amazon link you posted said Dagger2
[21:19] <chris_99> Sequential Read : 19.72 MB/s
[21:19] <chris_99> Sequential Write : 18.52 MB/s
[21:19] <dmsuse> im with chris on this one
[21:20] <Dagger2> yes I read it... sequential write is very much not random 4k write
[21:20] <haltdef> he's talking about randoms, chris_99
[21:20] <Dagger2> and it also says "Random Write 4KB (QD=1) : 0.035 MB/s" right beneath
[21:20] <chris_99> yeah i just noticed that
[21:20] <chris_99> but why does random reads matter so much Dagger2
[21:20] <dmsuse> i was looking at some benchmarks yesterday, shows ext4 can be up to 3x faster than ext3
[21:20] <haltdef> it matters for running an OS on
[21:20] <Dagger2> because all your writes will be random
[21:20] <haltdef> which is what we'll all be doing with our raspis
[21:21] <chris_99> there will still be a lot of sequential reads
[21:21] <chris_99> such as file access
[21:21] <haltdef> doesn't make random writes and reads any less important
[21:21] <chris_99> what SD cards do you suggest Dagger2 ?
[21:22] <dmsuse> it seems to me using sd card to run the os is too slow, ill use usb
[21:22] <Dagger2> (gross approximation, of course, but *any* write to the filesystem requires updating some form of filesystem structure, which means every write is at least 2 IOs, which is a 0.25s when your card can only do 8 IOPS -- and a write probably involves more than 2 IOs)
[21:22] <haltdef> I'd imagine you'll have a similar battle with usb flash drives
[21:22] <haltdef> some unusable, some fantastic
[21:22] <wwalker> Dagger2: you are wrong. YOU may have a cheap SD card with a crappy MM, but random access doesn't slow most SD cards appreciably
[21:23] <haltdef> the fastest I have does 200KB/s 4k
[21:24] <Dagger2> chris_99: if I had an answer to that I'd be happy. the suggestion above of Sandisk C4 cards seems to be reasonable to try for, but of course you never quite know what you're getting when you buy SD cards until you actually get them
[21:24] <chris_99> cheers, will investigate those
[21:24] <dmsuse> 20kb is pointless, no os can work from that
[21:25] <Dagger2> wwalker: well, I did just post a bunch of benchmarks to corroborate my position. if you can find some benchmarks of C10 cards that have decent write speeds, then go ahead and link to them
[21:25] <chris_99> the rasperypi is USB2 right?
[21:25] <dmsuse> yes
[21:26] <chris_99> so a std. laptop harddisk attached to usb would be fast
[21:27] <dmsuse> i don't understand how ssd hard drives are so fast yet sd cards are so slow?
[21:27] <chris_99> must be a completely different tech
[21:28] <victhor> SD is meant for low cost and uses slow, inexpensive memory
[21:28] <victhor> SSD is meant for high speed and uses fast, expensive memory
[21:28] <Dagger2> dmsuse: SD cards are primarily meant for cameras or camcorders, where random write is irrelevent and sequential performance actually matters
[21:28] <haltdef> SSDs have clever controllers, SDs don't
[21:29] <haltdef> also NAND, I don't think SDs use NAND
[21:29] <haltdef> 8 channels as well
[21:29] <victhor> NAND is slow. NOR is fast.
[21:29] <victhor> SDs use NAND
[21:30] <haltdef> ah ok
[21:30] <haltdef> my vertex 3 is far from slow and that uses NAND
[21:30] <pygo> SSD can also be read/written a whole lot more. achieving hundreds of megabytes a second. where as SD is piss poort slow, giving up to 20MB/s at best
[21:30] <haltdef> 50MB/s random writes
[21:30] <haltdef> 400 or so sequential
[21:30] <pygo> ^
[21:30] <pygo> SSD would be a bit of a waste over USB, imo
[21:31] <pygo> don't forget the r-pi has the ethernet and two usb ports shared with one usb2 port
[21:31] <haltdef> yeah
[21:31] <chris_99> oh i didn't know it had two usb ports
[21:31] <pygo> not a big deal though I think, considering it's 700mhz :)
[21:31] <dmsuse> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/microsdhc-memory-card-performance,3011-12.html
[21:31] <pygo> oh the b model has 2
[21:31] <pygo> the a model has one (and no lan)
[21:32] <haltdef> provided by a hub though, they're still sharing one "port"
[21:32] <haltdef> with lan as well
[21:32] <pygo> the b model takes the normal one, and uses a hub to get the lan and two ports
[21:32] <chris_99> oh so you're saying the LAN is actually a usb connection
[21:32] <pygo> yup
[21:32] <chris_99> aha interesting
[21:33] <rm> well
[21:33] <chris_99> hopefully the drivers are in debian for that
[21:33] <rm> I think it's not that bad
[21:33] <pygo> I'm willing to bet one of the usb 10/100 lan ports from dealextreme.com is the same chip
[21:33] <chris_99> yeah it doesnt matter as 100Mbps < 480Mbps
[21:33] <rm> the device is an integrated chip providing USB and LAN
[21:33] <rm> it has to at least not completely suck at LAN
[21:34] <chris_99> i need to check DX for a cheap wifi
[21:34] <chris_99> adapter
[21:34] <dmsuse> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sdxc-sdhc-uhs-i,2940-10.html <--- that is showing 53MB/s for random read/write?
[21:34] <pygo> I think it'll depend what you do. I'm sure doing layer 2 and some layer three with connection tracking and NAT you could saturate the 100mbit
[21:34] <haltdef> I have a usb2 gigabit adapter if I need any extra performance
[21:34] <pygo> depending on USB though... that 480mbit is only burst
[21:34] <haltdef> should at least saturate usb2
[21:34] <pygo> I recon you'll only get 30MB/s tops with a gig adapter
[21:35] <haltdef> yea
[21:35] <pygo> one of these would make a great little firewall and access point with extra power to boot
[21:35] <Dagger2> dmsuse: 53 MB for 512 KB reads... the graph at the bottom is the 4k random write graph
[21:35] <pygo> my wrt160n can easily push 100mb on three ports at the same time and it's only 32mb ram and a 250mhz cpu
[21:36] <haltdef> my wnr3500l has 5 gig ports, one lan and 802.11n 2.4ghz, cost ??30 :P
[21:36] <haltdef> don't use it for wifi though
[21:36] <dmsuse> Dagger2: wow that is terrible.. lol
[21:36] <Dagger2> and likewise with your first link; the relevant graph is http://media.bestofmicro.com/L/L/301449/original/crystaldiskmark_random_write_4kb_qd_1.png
[21:36] <pygo> heh haltdef I just had a wnr3500l then bricked it and took it back
[21:36] <haltdef> they're a bugger to recover from a brick I hear
[21:36] <pygo> ended up getting the wndr3700v2 since it was on sale (lucky me)
[21:36] <haltdef> I use a wndr4000 for wifi
[21:37] <haltdef> incredible wifi speeds
[21:37] <pygo> I found out after they're easy to recover from a brick
[21:37] <haltdef> you ende dup with a better router anyway
[21:37] <pygo> just hold down the reset button, power up, wait till the power starts flashing green (about 15-20 seconds, iirc)
[21:37] <haltdef> tftp? :P
[21:37] <pygo> then you can tftp up your image. it'll have to be factory though
[21:37] <pygo> yup
[21:37] <pygo> done it twice now to my wndr3700v2
[21:38] <pygo> after the tftp is done, quit the client and wait about 5 minutes. maybe 10 at most for older slower devices
[21:38] <haltdef> dd-wrt on my wndr4000 was utter pants
[21:38] <haltdef> pppoe didn't work, wifi was dog slow
[21:38] <pygo> I switched to openwrt
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[21:39] <haltdef> had to intentionally brick then tftp to get stock back
[21:39] <pygo> dd-wrt didn't even support vlans for some silly political reason
[21:39] <haltdef> I don't get why it's loved so much
[21:39] <haltdef> never had a positive experience with it, even on a wrt54g
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[21:39] <pygo> so far I <3 openwrt. the luci web gui is so much nicer. dunno why I didn't switch back sooner
[21:39] <haltdef> have you used tomato?
[21:40] <pygo> yeah. was using it on my wrt54gl for the longest time
[21:40] <haltdef> got toastman's tomato on my wnr3500l, it's pretty awesome
[21:40] <haltdef> native ipv6 support, tunnels too
[21:40] <pygo> nice
[21:40] <haltdef> per IP bandwidth monitoring, both realtime and historical
[21:40] <pygo> yeah
[21:41] <pygo> I'm looking to build my own firmware following a guide I found for the wndr3700 on openwrts site.
[21:41] <haltdef> what can building your own firmware get you?
[21:41] <pygo> these little routers have come a long way
[21:41] <pygo> well, ebtables was excluded due to performance impact... which is a total lie, unless you're on a wrt54gl
[21:42] <pygo> tarpit module is already there
[21:42] <haltdef> my wrt54gs v1.1 struggled a bit with my 20mbit and QoS
[21:42] <pygo> and proper ipv6 in iptables (ip6tables)
[21:42] <haltdef> 99% cpu .. this wnr3500l barely hits 15%
[21:42] <pygo> aye
[21:42] <ShiftPlusOne> oh crap
[21:43] <pygo> I think having a second gen CPU and more than twice the speed really helps
[21:43] <ShiftPlusOne> this router talk reminded me I bid on one on ebay
[21:43] <haltdef> definitely
[21:43] <ShiftPlusOne> which finishes soon.. and I need to fight off sniper
[21:43] <ShiftPlusOne> thanks
[21:43] <pygo> yw :)
[21:43] <pygo> what router? _>
[21:43] <pygo> :> promise I wound go bid. haha
[21:43] <ShiftPlusOne> WNR3500L
[21:43] <pygo> won't. damn typos
[21:43] <pygo> ah nice
[21:44] <ShiftPlusOne> 1 hours and 30 minutes to go
[21:44] <haltdef> make sure you put tomato on it!
[21:44] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, I'll have to
[21:44] <pygo> or openwrt :)
[21:45] <pygo> prefer openwrt now as they have a nice packagr manager
[21:45] <ShiftPlusOne> does openwrt allow capping your brother's bandwidth?
[21:45] <pygo> think so
[21:45] <haltdef> I was under the impression it was very commandline heavy
[21:45] <haltdef> I can cap any machine on the lan to any speeds I want through the gui on toastman's tomato
[21:45] <pygo> used to be. seems they have a gui now. last time I used it there was no such thing
[21:45] <haltdef> (and do, nobody pisses me off anymore)
[21:47] * tessier (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:47] <ShiftPlusOne> clearly, he who wields the bandwidth, wields the power.
[21:48] <pygo> I have 50mbit and don't really give a rats...
[21:48] <pygo> it just goes
[21:48] <haltdef> I'm at my upper limit for the forseeable future
[21:48] <wwalker> pygo: 50? where are you and who's the provider, if you don't mind.
[21:48] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, well over here it's worth it's weight in gold.
[21:48] <haltdef> 21mbps sync on adsl2+
[21:48] <pygo> shaw, Canada :)
[21:49] <ShiftPlusOne> actually... it doesn't weigh anything.... bad analogy.
[21:49] <pygo> 50 down and 3meg up
[21:49] <pygo> and it's only $30 Canadian / month
[21:49] <wwalker> I want haltdef's connect. I'm at 24/3 with uverse. I'd prefer 8/8
[21:50] <haltdef> my upload's only 1mbps
[21:50] <wwalker> pygo: wow. I think mine is $55 US
[21:50] <pygo> ouch
[21:50] <victhor> ADSL sucks... you have extremely high download but crap upload
[21:50] <pygo> I'd get both - use the 8/8 connectioin for remote
[21:50] <wwalker> haltdef: oh, when you said sync I was thinking symmetrical
[21:50] <haltdef> I car emore about the download anyway
[21:50] <haltdef> no, synchronisation speed
[21:51] <victhor> yeah I use download mostly so...
[21:51] <victhor> but 1 Mbps upload is annoying sometimes.
[21:51] <haltdef> tis
[21:51] <wwalker> I upload a lot of images and things for offsite storage. Rarely get anything that will push a download faster than 8-10
[21:51] <haltdef> no chance of FTTC any time soon anyway, that should be at 80/20 by the time it's rolled out here
[21:52] <victhor> my ISP actually offers fiber, but only at high speed plans, which cost a lot :/
[21:52] <haltdef> you have no right to moan then
[21:52] <ShiftPlusOne> lol
[21:52] <ShiftPlusOne> we have only one speed
[21:52] <victhor> there is a cable ISP here, but I heard they aren't very good :P
[21:52] <ShiftPlusOne> (crap)
[21:52] <haltdef> it's available and you're still moaning, sod off :P
[21:52] <victhor> lol
[21:52] <victhor> too expensive still
[21:52] <pygo> mine offers fiber also... from 100mbit and up. you can even get 10gig (and higher if you're willing to pay loads)
[21:53] <tntexplosivesltd> morning all
[21:53] <haltdef> I'd happily chuck ??80/mo on faster internets
[21:53] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah? well we have FTTH in Tasmania.... but people don't really know what internet is over there.
[21:54] <ShiftPlusOne> wow... just checked when they aim to actually have ftth available to 'everyone'.... 2021.... =/
[21:55] <ShiftPlusOne> Does it really take that long to lay down some cables? >=/
[21:55] <haltdef> lol, it's a bit more than "some"
[21:56] <ShiftPlusOne> shh
[21:56] <haltdef> absolute fuckton of fibre, which isn't easy to join and terminate
[21:56] <haltdef> plus all the equipment
[21:56] <pygo> yup. super pricey
[21:56] <ShiftPlusOne> no need to get practical >=/ I want it now!
[21:57] <pygo> go google search datacenter and your city
[21:57] <pygo> then go shack up next to them and hope they have free wifi
[21:57] <pygo> if not, bust in a hook yourself in
[21:57] <ShiftPlusOne> hmm
[21:57] <pygo> those always have at least two ISPs and at least gig a better
[21:58] <pygo> most nowadays have 10gig
[21:58] <ShiftPlusOne> I do live down the road from the exchange
[21:58] <ShiftPlusOne> should just dig up their cable and reroute it, hoping nobody notices.
[21:58] <haltdef> *yoink*
[21:59] <pygo> don't look in the fiber for light. you won't see it. but you will go blind
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[21:59] <haltdef> :o
[21:59] <ShiftPlusOne> really? what light do they use?
[21:59] <tntexplosivesltd> IR
[21:59] <tntexplosivesltd> lasers
[22:00] <Jimf82> hallo peoples
[22:00] <tntexplosivesltd> was learning about it at work
[22:00] * piofcube (~piofcube@piofcube.1billionhex.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:00] <pygo> ooo looking at the mouse thread on r-pi forums... gives me an idea for a huge badass steampunk type mouse
[22:00] <pygo> ShiftPlusOne: don't recall. but you can look up the spectrums
[22:00] <pygo> I think 1310nm was one of the wavelengths
[22:01] <pygo> but VERY powerfull as it has to shoot usually tens of KM
[22:01] <pygo> and if it's a fiber between two sites it's usually 50km or more
[22:01] <tntexplosivesltd> they use infra red lasers
[22:01] * robde_ (~robde@p57902BC8.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Quit: Gone.)
[22:02] <ShiftPlusOne> You can go blind from IR?
[22:02] <pygo> yup
[22:02] <victhor> IR = heat :P
[22:02] <pygo> they tend to have two patterns they use for optimal transmission. one is a grid pattern. friend has that burned into his retina now
[22:03] <pygo> on the plus side, eyeballing your home improvement projects is easier ;)
[22:03] <ShiftPlusOne> ouch
[22:03] <tntexplosivesltd> bugger
[22:03] <traeak> chris_99: it depends on how the files end up laid out on disk
[22:03] <pygo> he says he's used to it and just sees past it now. but notices it from time to time
[22:04] <ShiftPlusOne> how much is a used WNR3500L worth anyway? not sure what to put the max bid up to
[22:04] <chris_99> yeah, depnds on whether they're fragmented or not
[22:04] <haltdef> got mine for ??30
[22:04] <tntexplosivesltd> how long did he look for
[22:04] * Jimf82 (Jimf82@5e0ab7b5.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[22:04] <haltdef> they retail for almost ??100 new though
[22:05] <ShiftPlusOne> 100AUD it is then
[22:05] <traeak> ugh i lost my scroll....had to come down tons of pages
[22:05] <haltdef> bit high tbh
[22:05] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, but they're kind of rare on ebay
[22:06] <ShiftPlusOne> locally anyway
[22:06] <haltdef> mm
[22:07] * LiENUS (~whodat@2001:470:bbb3:12:489:4c71:7c0d:64ee) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[22:07] <ShiftPlusOne> do any of the custom firmwares let you set the maximum number of connections per IP?
[22:08] <traeak> no idea...what i'm most interested in for a new super cheap router would be as a repeater
[22:08] <haltdef> there's a TCP limit option on the per IP throttling section
[22:08] <haltdef> I'd imagine that'll do it
[22:08] * Faperdaper (~Faperdape@dhcp-077-250-027-109.chello.nl) Quit (Quit: Quit)
[22:08] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, that should
[22:08] <ShiftPlusOne> thanks
[22:08] <haltdef> traeak, you'll half the speed doing that
[22:08] <haltdef> unless there's two radios you can use
[22:09] <dmsuse> are you sure you can even find a usb wifi that supports repeater mode?
[22:09] <traeak> haltdef: my internet is so bad that doesn't matter
[22:09] <haltdef> wifi to lan speeds matter to me :p
[22:09] <traeak> haltdef: or put it better: half speed wireless is better than constantly dropping wireless
[22:10] <pygo> ^
[22:10] <ShiftPlusOne> is that half speed or half max speed?
[22:10] <haltdef> can't wire anothef AP in?
[22:10] <traeak> having a 1.5MB home connection why should I care ??
[22:11] <haltdef> wifi can be used for things other than web browsing
[22:11] <traeak> haltdef: i try to keep those at work. my 18 month old son finds a way to destroy the "other things"
[22:11] <haltdef> ha
[22:14] <traeak> I *do* get hacked off when tryin to download new snapshots of cyanogenmod but life goes on
[22:14] <traeak> at work i have about 80mb or so
[22:17] * Thorn_ (~thorn@osirion.org) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:17] <PiBot> Thorn_| <Thorn_> omg its november in 9.5hrs is it out yet??
[22:19] * qzx (ze@anime.is) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[22:19] <traeak> !w
[22:19] <PiBot> traeak: in Parker, CO on Fri Jan 13 15:53:00 2012. Temp 5??C. Condition: Cloudy, Humidity: 24%, Later 47??F - 20??F. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[22:19] <haltdef> take a big flash drive and download to it while nobody's looking :>
[22:19] <traeak> woah who changed the forecast to fahrenheit ?
[22:19] <traeak> hehe i'm the only one on this line :-p
[22:20] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has left #raspberrypi
[22:25] * vipkilla (~t_dot_zil@unaffiliated/t-dot-zilla/x-2830497) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner])
[22:31] * sightlight (b84f3609@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[22:31] <sightlight> hello?
[22:31] <dmsuse> hi
[22:32] <sightlight> no body speaks here
[22:32] <ShiftPlusOne> O_o
[22:32] <sightlight> this is raspberry pi stuff
[22:32] <sightlight> ?
[22:32] <dmsuse> it is indeed
[22:32] <pygo> while on the forums "Error establishing a database connection" :'(
[22:33] <haltdef> you concluded nobody speaks here after being in here for under a minute? :P
[22:33] <pygo> lol
[22:33] <sightlight> drivers are fr windows and kernels are for linux?
[22:33] <haltdef> what?
[22:33] <traeak> huh ?
[22:33] <sightlight> I dont get that
[22:33] <ShiftPlusOne> windows? what does windows have to do with anything?
[22:33] <dmsuse> lol?
[22:33] <pygo> windows has a kernel as well.
[22:33] <sightlight> nah
[22:34] <pygo> and linux has drivers. typically as modules or compiled into the kernel
[22:34] <ShiftPlusOne> kernels aren't for linux... linux IS the kernel
[22:34] <traeak> hehe, how old are you ?
[22:34] <dmsuse> ^^
[22:34] <sightlight> 19
[22:34] <traeak> hmm
[22:34] <traeak> know much about OS architecture?
[22:34] <traeak> or english isn't yoru first language?
[22:34] <sightlight> well, i have been with computer since I was litle
[22:35] * PiBot (~Raspberry@c-24-147-35-37.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:35] <sightlight> I switched from windows to linux permanently
[22:35] <traeak> congrats
[22:35] <traeak> i guess you game on other things then
[22:35] <Thorn_> did you grow a hippy beard too
[22:35] <sightlight> and Ive been learing ubuntu
[22:35] * DaQatz (~DB@c-24-147-35-37.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:35] * DaQatz (~DB@c-24-147-35-37.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:36] <ShiftPlusOne> I've tried to grow a hippy beard... instead it turned out a muslim beard =(
[22:36] <traeak> Thorn_: hehe, that's not necessary, i'm no hippy, i own lots and lots of guns :0p
[22:36] <sightlight> i am interested in the Pi.
[22:36] <haltdef> I'm not fond of linux on my desktop or laptop but I'm very glad I used it as my main OS for a while
[22:36] <haltdef> comes in handy knowing my way around it sometimes
[22:36] <dmsuse> why do you not like it as a desktop?
[22:36] <traeak> sightlight: as are the rest of us...but waiting to get our hands on it
[22:36] <ctyler> sightlight: cool!
[22:36] <haltdef> this was a while ago now, but nothing bloody worked
[22:37] <dmsuse> ah, you must have tried gnome
[22:37] <dmsuse> try kde and you will never go back
[22:37] <traeak> haltdef: what were you trying to do?
[22:37] <haltdef> I could probably make it work for me, over time .. but for what?
[22:37] <haltdef> it was kde
[22:37] <dmsuse> lies!
[22:37] <Thorn_> your problem was kde
[22:37] * ushtor_ (~ushtor_@ppp-242-224.32-151.iol.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:37] * traeak kills dmsuse
[22:37] <haltdef> connect to a wpa wireless network
[22:37] <Thorn_> switch to openbox or awesomewm and you'll be happy
[22:37] <relaxed> or fluxbox
[22:37] <ShiftPlusOne> you're all wrong, switch to the command line!
[22:37] <sightlight> my aspire doesnt have drivers for gpu linux ubuntu
[22:37] <traeak> haltdef: wicd handles that nicely nowadays
[22:37] <sightlight> i need a Pi!
[22:38] <haltdef> well, I'm happy now on windows 7 so I'll stay put :P
[22:38] <traeak> what type of aspire? something fancy ?
[22:38] <sightlight> hope I can play warsow and some good games
[22:38] <ctyler> haltdef: must have been a while ago, wireless has been pretty happy for a while
[22:38] <dmsuse> kde did have issues a few years back with wpa
[22:38] <dmsuse> totally fixed now ;)
[22:38] <traeak> kde has a few issues with everything, mostly excessive bloat and idiocy
[22:38] <sightlight> acer aspire one
[22:38] <Thorn_> kde's biggest issue now is kde
[22:38] <traeak> :-p
[22:38] <haltdef> yeah wireless wasn't an issue when I booted a livecd
[22:38] <ctyler> sightlight: it will take time for games to appear that are optimized for the Pi, but it has the horsepower for some serious fun
[22:38] <Thorn_> i miss kde3
[22:39] <traeak> sightlight: hmm...shoudld be standard intel gpu then
[22:39] <dmsuse> i prefer kde over gnome anyday and it's not just me, torvalds tells people to use kde too
[22:39] <traeak> ouch
[22:39] <Thorn_> sure
[22:39] <relaxed> gnome3 is getting better though
[22:39] <traeak> at home i put xfce on stuff for my wife
[22:39] <Thorn_> but the problem is still
[22:39] <ctyler> torvalds have wandered back and forth over the years
[22:39] <Thorn_> * > kde > gnome :P
[22:39] <traeak> i use windowmaker at work
[22:39] <sightlight> linux doesnt suppor GMA 500 GPU...........
[22:39] <traeak> ahh you have one of *those*
[22:40] <traeak> youch
[22:40] <sightlight> yeah i know..
[22:40] <relaxed> sightlight: there's a blob driver
[22:40] <haltdef> intel mended linux drivers for it didn't they
[22:40] <ctyler> sightlight: our condolances
[22:40] <sightlight> yeah
[22:40] * ushtor_ (~ushtor_@ppp-242-224.32-151.iol.it) Quit (Client Quit)
[22:41] <sightlight> blob driver?
[22:42] <relaxed> sightlight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#Linux
[22:42] * __Ross (~ross@188-221-247-176.zone12.bethere.co.uk) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:42] <ctyler> a binary "blob" of code provided without source by the vendor
[22:43] <victhor> GMA 500 = PowerVR - Imagination isn't really known for good drivers :(
[22:43] * __Ross (~ross@188-221-247-176.zone12.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:43] <victhor> I know the PowerVR drivers for the beagle board are really old
[22:44] <zgreg> imgtec's attitude towards drivers is really frustrating
[22:44] <sightlight> hello
[22:44] <sightlight> ?
[22:44] <sightlight> my conection reset
[22:45] <haltdef> got a fresh debian install on my umpc with a gma500
[22:45] * sightlight (b84f3609@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[22:45] <zgreg> powervr sgx is one of the most-used mobile gpus, for good reason, and everyone would like if they opened up a little
[22:46] * sightlight (b84f3609@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[22:46] <sightlight> hello
[22:46] <sightlight> my conection when boom
[22:46] <haltdef> we could hear you just fine before you quit
[22:47] <victhor> it's not "closed driver", it's "no driver at all"
[22:47] <traeak> yeah, that's the truth
[22:47] <sightlight> oh
[22:47] <sightlight> i guess the Pi is cheap..
[22:47] <sightlight> Ill wait for that
[22:48] <haltdef> I do wonder how it'll deal with xvid or mpeg2 videos
[22:48] <sightlight> only if we could run x86 stuff
[22:48] <sightlight> RAWR!
[22:48] <haltdef> no mention of gpu support for those formats
[22:49] <traeak> http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:PowerVR_drivers
[22:49] <ShiftPlusOne> hmm... any idea if it will support flash?
[22:49] <traeak> hmm...any idea if it will run windows ?
[22:49] <ShiftPlusOne> yes, no.
[22:49] <traeak> ShiftPlusOne: :-p
[22:50] <haltdef> there's an arm flash in android, wonder if porting is a job only adobe can do
[22:50] <haltdef> yoink something from maemo 5 as long as it's not compiled for its armv7 chip specifically
[22:50] <haltdef> I have no idea :P
[22:50] <traeak> armv7 is a problem
[22:51] * Construct (~Construct@c-67-172-234-30.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:52] <sightlight> a mod of crysis for quake 3 engine........
[22:52] <sightlight> for the Pi
[22:53] <sightlight> ;(
[22:53] <traeak> hm
[22:53] <traeak> quake3 and derivatives would be interesting
[22:53] <traeak> like getting UrbanTerror, etc going
[22:53] <traeak> although those may use too much CPU
[22:54] <haltdef> sounds like you need a real, mid to high end x86 computer running windows sightlight
[22:55] <traeak> quake3 runs just fine on linux :-p
[22:55] <traeak> in fact better on linux than windows
[22:55] <haltdef> crysis less so
[22:55] <traeak> yeah, i ditched that type of gaming a while ago
[22:55] <haltdef> first person shooters generally bore me
[22:56] <haltdef> give me stealth action like splinter cell or a giant open world game like saints row or gta and I'm happy
[22:58] <zgreg> I'd rather like to see as basic DDX driver instead of a plethora of games
[22:58] <traeak> what's DDX ?
[22:59] <zgreg> the Xorg 2D driver component
[22:59] <traeak> hmm
[22:59] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[22:59] <traeak> that can be done throught opengles
[22:59] * hamitron (~hamitron@just.screw-the.eu) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:59] <traeak> granted its sort of overkill
[22:59] <zgreg> why?
[23:00] <traeak> otherwise you're stuck with using something like SDL for the 2d drive
[23:00] <zgreg> of course I'm talking about accelerated 2D
[23:00] <zgreg> unaccelerated, basic framebuffer already works
[23:00] <traeak> accelerated 2d through opengles backend should be there
[23:00] <zgreg> but that's painful, especially with a CPU that is as slow as a slowly clocked arm11
[23:00] <zgreg> is it?
[23:00] <traeak> hmm
[23:01] <traeak> theoretically (ie, you have to search for that)
[23:01] <victhor> there is OpenVG for 2D, but I don't know if SDL supports that or not
[23:06] <sightlight> i read that the quake 3 engine is more than 10 years old and it looks like crysis lvl
[23:07] <dmsuse> quake 3 is nothing special
[23:07] <sightlight> im talking abot the engine and mods
[23:08] <traeak> mods at that level will require more ram than the pi has
[23:08] <traeak> i'm afraid you'll be stuck with quake3 type textures due to the ram
[23:08] <traeak> i believe crysis requires maybe at least 512MB on the graphics card itself ?
[23:09] <sightlight> I can quality down.
[23:09] <traeak> then what's so special about crysis if you cut out the quailty ?
[23:09] <zgreg> victhor: well, we'd need support for that in a DDX, not SDL
[23:09] <zgreg> but isn't openvg strictly vector graphics only?
[23:10] <traeak> SDL works mostly with frame buffer type semantics
[23:10] <traeak> openvg does tons of stuff...
[23:10] <sightlight> does quake 3 has a story line? SO I need a mod
[23:10] <zgreg> traeak: but that's very useless
[23:11] <zgreg> a basic DDX needs accelerated blitting/blending and pixmap handling
[23:11] <zgreg> opengl is actually quite good for that
[23:11] <traeak> zgreg: yeah, that works with low tech games but not really for general purpose computing
[23:11] <victhor> I'm also hoping for a X11 driver
[23:12] <sightlight> for the Pi? victhor?
[23:12] <victhor> yes
[23:12] <dmsuse> uh?
[23:12] <traeak> i think he means fully accelerated
[23:13] <traeak> most of the demos have shown the frame buffer variation
[23:13] <ctyler> which sucks, tbh
[23:14] * Construct (~Construct@c-67-172-234-30.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[23:14] <ShiftPlusOne> would toastman's tomato run on WNR3500Lv2 or is it WNR3500L only??
[23:14] <traeak> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/performance?value=accelerated%20x11&type=2&include=1&search=1&ret=all
[23:15] <haltdef> I have no idea about that one
[23:15] <haltdef> are you bidding on a v2?
[23:15] <ShiftPlusOne> yup
[23:17] * Cracknel (~cracknel@unaffiliated/cracknel) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:17] <steffen--> i'm using it on a v2, so it'll most likely work : )
[23:17] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, thanks
[23:18] * UriFabi (urifabi@office2.de.urifabi.net) Quit ()
[23:19] <traeak> "The issue is the lack of ways to make money out of games."
[23:19] <traeak> the thing is, rpi *WILL* have an accelerated X11 driver. The question is when will that driver be available?
[23:20] <ShiftPlusOne> 20 seconds till the acution is over
[23:20] <ShiftPlusOne> well 10
[23:20] <ShiftPlusOne> looks like I have a new router
[23:23] * LiENUS (~whodat@ip68-11-254-175.br.br.cox.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:23] <traeak> "Any X drivers developed for this will be community-developed drivers. There are no Broadcom X drivers for this device." <-- quote from liz
[23:23] <traeak> the quake3 demo was run via opengl that didn't require X11 to initialize
[23:23] <traeak> which is good news
[23:27] * tom_say (~pain@cpe-68-203-248-184.stx.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[23:28] <victhor> will there be ELITE for raspberry pi? :P
[23:30] <ShiftPlusOne> maybe
[23:33] <zgreg> traeak: who's working on the driver?
[23:34] <zgreg> you say there will be a driver, but without anyone working on this, there won't be a driver
[23:34] <traeak> zgreg: who all has boards?
[23:35] <traeak> geez, have some patience
[23:35] <zgreg> despite this being extremely important to use raspi for standard tasks like web browsing
[23:36] <sightlight> high end game that can be played on the raspberry pi?
[23:36] <traeak> crap i can't keep firefox under 400MB
[23:37] <dmsuse> why would you want to ?
[23:39] * devyx (~devyx@ip-89-176-58-212.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:39] <traeak> i'm afraid people wanting to use the rpi for anything other than a dumb terminal will be dissapointed in desktop rpi
[23:39] <xlq> Hmm.
[23:39] <traeak> funny, 256MB used to be a ton of ram though
[23:40] <dmsuse> traeak: why?
[23:40] <traeak> i think those were the days when 800x600 was the normal screen resolution
[23:40] <dmsuse> the pi will work find on the desktop...
[23:41] <dmsuse> *fine
[23:41] <xlq> 1920x1080 24-bit = 6M per frame
[23:41] <traeak> IO throughput is really bad, load times for desktop use will be not great
[23:41] <traeak> that's probablyt he achilles heel
[23:41] <ahven> it is not meant to be a desktop replacement :P
[23:41] <traeak> ahven: of course, that's why some peopel will be disappointed :-p
[23:42] <dmsuse> i won't be using anything higher than 800x600
[23:42] <haltdef> I'll certainly see what it can do as a desktop but I plan on using it as a server for my bnc and bitlbee
[23:42] <haltdef> not a necessity at all, just super cool :P
[23:43] <traeak> i'll take a shot too at the desktop side...mostly as a terminal (doing work somwhere else)
[23:43] <dmsuse> i don't understand why the desktop use will be so impossible
[23:43] <dmsuse> i have seen videos of web browsers being used on the pi with a desktop
[23:43] <haltdef> ram hungry browsers and window managers mebbe
[23:44] <FireFly> People probably expect that flash and stuff will work well
[23:44] <dmsuse> midori browser will run on it no problem
[23:44] <FireFly> Well, some people probably do
[23:45] <ShiftPlusOne> also, the broadcom driver will take a big chunk of the memory... I don't think model A would even be usable outside of the command line.
[23:46] <haltdef> are you sure? would have thought such a high performance gpu would have dedicated vram
[23:46] * Ian3 (569bf865@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[23:46] * any1 (~jw@chello212017126126.1.klafu.surfer.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:47] <victhor> hard to put dedicated VRAM in such a small space... :P
[23:47] <Ian3> Hello
[23:47] <ShiftPlusOne> hi
[23:47] <haltdef> hard to put a whole system in such a small place
[23:47] <haltdef> doesn't mean it hasn't been done :P
[23:48] <ShiftPlusOne> and yes, 256mb used to be a lot of RAM, but people used to program within certain parameters and things like efficiency mattered.
[23:48] <ShiftPlusOne> now we have java developers
[23:48] <dmsuse> lol
[23:48] <victhor> true story :P
[23:48] <Ian3> Everyone at the Foundation must be very pleased with the success of the eBay auctions
[23:49] <victhor> but I am not pleased
[23:49] <haltdef> yeah, just under 16 grand altogether I believe
[23:49] <haltdef> mindblowing
[23:49] <victhor> I will be when they start selling them :P
[23:49] <dmsuse> i bet they wish they didn't make it a charity now :P
[23:50] <haltdef> I don't think broadcom would have given them such a good deal on the SoCs if they weren't tbh
[23:50] <Ian3> the pi reminds of my old Sinclair ZX80 - which still works :)
[23:50] <dmsuse> although as with all other charities, sombody always gets paid an extortionate amount
[23:50] <ReggieUK> yuk, how can the pi remind you of a zx80?
[23:51] <dmsuse> the pi reminds me of my android phone...
[23:51] <ReggieUK> pi reminds me of an arm dev board
[23:51] <Ian3> T simple device designed to let people learn programming
[23:51] <traeak> the pi reminds me of....pie
[23:51] <haltdef> mmm pi
[23:52] <Ian3> Cost my dad around ??69 if memory serves
[23:52] <ReggieUK> I might've agreed with you if I'd owned one but I had a bbc so if it was going to remind me of anything nostalgic it would be a bbc
[23:52] <ReggieUK> especially given all of the tie ins :)
[23:52] * any1 (~jw@chello212017126126.1.klafu.surfer.at) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[23:52] <traeak> well i've been using fltk for my software developement, etc
[23:53] <ShiftPlusOne> pi used to be a codeword for sex in my last relationship, so it reminds me of all kinds of things. >.>
[23:53] <Ian3> I remeber the TV series which was created for it.
[23:53] <traeak> much leaner stuff
[23:53] <haltdef> yeah, some things you don't share ShiftPlusOne
[23:53] <Ian3> lol
[23:53] <ShiftPlusOne> some things you *shouldn't* share
[23:54] <ReggieUK> must've been awkward if your mom or dad asked to come round for pie
[23:54] <traeak> somnething like fltk also leans on the x server to do all the rendering
[23:54] <ShiftPlusOne> not pie, pi... there's a difference >=/
[23:54] <traeak> so if the x server is properly accelerated something like fltk (although fltk vanilla has huge issues) should be fast and memory efficient
[23:55] <traeak> and even better...on disk efficient as well
[23:55] <ReggieUK> honey, are we having 3.14 tonight?
[23:56] <victhor> Rofl
[23:56] <ReggieUK> I want you to theorem me, HARD
[23:56] <xlq> Who's eaten 0.0015936535 of my pie?!
[23:58] <ShiftPlusOne> xlq, really? you want to be technically accurate?
[23:59] <victhor> :P

These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.