#raspberrypi IRC Log

Index

IRC Log for 2012-02-01

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:00] * ushioet (9720aa7f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.32.170.127) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:00] * koaschten_ (~koaschten@31-16-0-231-dynip.superkabel.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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[0:05] * LiENUS (~yes@2001:470:bbb3:12:f85b:8a8f:62e7:e6b9) has joined #raspberrypi
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[1:03] * ksaua (~saua@193.81-167-3.customer.lyse.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[1:03] * AlexanderS (AlexanderS@2a01:4f8:120:7061::5:46a0) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:04] <AlexanderS> hi
[1:04] <AlexanderS> is there something wrong with the website?
[1:05] <tntexplosivesltd> yes
[1:05] * feep (~feep@p5B2B398E.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[1:05] <tntexplosivesltd> yes there is =(
[1:05] <AlexanderS> okay
[1:05] <tntexplosivesltd> looks like a server error
[1:06] <AlexanderS> I thought, I missed the launch and the site just got some overload XD
[1:06] <tntexplosivesltd> heh no
[1:06] <Thorn_> nope, that was yesterday
[1:07] <tntexplosivesltd> they announced on twitter and stuff when
[1:07] <tntexplosivesltd> it came out
[1:08] <hamitron> tntexplosivesltd, you are joking?
[1:08] <hamitron> :|
[1:08] <tntexplosivesltd> hamitron: ??
[1:09] <Byan> no way
[1:09] <tntexplosivesltd> what?
[1:09] <Byan> http://twitter.com/raspberry_pi
[1:09] <Thorn_> too easy
[1:09] <vgrade> they were planning a bigger machine for website
[1:09] <hamitron> Thorn_, pfffffffft ;/
[1:09] <Thorn_> is it out yet
[1:09] * PiBot slaps Thorn_ across the face with a cast iron pan.
[1:10] <Byan> apparently they dropped support for mpeg2...
[1:10] <Byan> thats a bummer...
[1:11] <Byan> I wonder if there will be a way to enable it..
[1:11] <hamitron> probably still play ok in software
[1:11] <Byan> no it won't..
[1:11] <Byan> 1080p mpeg2?
[1:11] <hamitron> just no hardware acceleration?
[1:12] <hamitron> oh, HD
[1:12] <hamitron> :/
[1:12] <Byan> mpeg2 is easy to decode.. but it becomes very hard at high bitrates..
[1:12] <Byan> harder than equivilent quality x264
[1:12] <hamitron> well, never had a 1080p video tbh
[1:13] <Byan> really? thats how almost all tv rips are released.
[1:13] <Byan> (the lossless ones)
[1:13] <Ben64> 1080i
[1:13] <hamitron> I can't download such huge files
[1:13] <hamitron> take forever
[1:13] <hamitron> :/
[1:13] <Byan> err, yeah, 1080i
[1:13] <Byan> you're right
[1:13] <Ben64> and yeah, 4GB per hr
[1:13] <tntexplosivesltd> interlaced is more common for TVs yes
[1:13] <hamitron> the ones I have downloaded, have been SD
[1:13] <Byan> Ben64: thats just for american rips
[1:14] * ali1234 (~ajbuxton@robotfuzz.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[1:14] <tntexplosivesltd> but it probably depends on where you are
[1:14] <Byan> asian ones are higher bitrate depending..
[1:14] <tntexplosivesltd> I think we use progressive here
[1:14] <Ben64> 720p x264 is less than a quarter of the file size, and plays fine on rpi
[1:14] <hamitron> and is dvd quality? so ok
[1:14] <Byan> yeah.. but I am suppose to convert all my 1080i mpeg2's?
[1:14] <Byan> meh
[1:14] <Ben64> 720p is significantly higher than dvd
[1:15] <Byan> 1080p x264 will play just fine on rpi
[1:15] <tntexplosivesltd> for 720 you're looking at blu-ray
[1:15] <Byan> and so will mpeg2.. they just don't have the liscense for it
[1:15] <Byan> bluray isn't 720p...
[1:15] <Ben64> bluray can be
[1:15] <hamitron> tbh, I'd rather have less license, and a cheaper device ;)
[1:15] <Byan> give me an example
[1:15] <Ben64> put 720p video on bluray, bam
[1:16] <Byan> >_>
[1:16] <Byan> I still challenge you to give me an example
[1:16] <Ben64> just did
[1:17] <Byan> no you didn't.. you gave me a hypthetical situation resolving it
[1:17] <tntexplosivesltd> Byan: metalocalypse season 3 is 720p, on blu-ray
[1:18] <tntexplosivesltd> I meant you're looking at at least blu-ray
[1:18] <tntexplosivesltd> def. not DVD
[1:18] <Ben64> dvd is 480p
[1:18] <Ben64> at best
[1:19] <Byan> http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Metalocalypse-Season-III-The-Dead-Man-Blu-ray/14118/
[1:19] <Byan> according to this.. it's 1080p
[1:19] <Byan> or is "the dead man" something else
[1:21] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, I have it in 720
[1:21] <tntexplosivesltd> this is a rip off =(
[1:21] <tntexplosivesltd> onowait
[1:22] <tntexplosivesltd> I ripped it in 720
[1:22] <tntexplosivesltd> never mind me
[1:22] <Byan> >_>
[1:22] <Ben64> http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Highlander-Season-One-Blu-ray/3155/
[1:22] <Ben64> there, now stop being silly
[1:23] <Byan> mmk
[1:23] <hamitron> Ben64, Error: Unknown State
[1:23] <hamitron> ;/
[1:23] <Ben64> Video resolution: 720p
[1:23] <Ben64> read harder
[1:23] <Byan> http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/2370_7_large.jpg
[1:24] <Byan> lol, I am not sure that /counts/ as 720p
[1:24] <Byan> but technically you win
[1:24] <Ben64> hey i have that same sword
[1:24] * mrdragons-away is now known as mrdragons
[1:36] * cerberos (~cerberos@118.173.86.85.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:36] * saua (~saua@193.81-167-3.customer.lyse.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:39] <LiENUS> liz on January 31, 2012 at 9:17 pm said:
[1:39] <LiENUS> Indeed ? we have to use an x-ray machine with microscopy to ensure all the pads are connected properly. And NOBODY has one of those at home.
[1:39] <LiENUS> HAHAHAH
[1:39] <LiENUS> i have both at home
[1:39] <SpeedEvil> :)
[1:39] <MystX> 0.o
[1:39] <SpeedEvil> And you don't actually need XRM
[1:40] <MystX> Do you live at broadcom?
[1:40] <LiENUS> i've got a fancy digital one
[1:40] <SpeedEvil> You need XRM if you want to do more than hope.
[1:40] <LiENUS> MystX, veterinary clinic
[1:40] <MystX> Ah
[1:40] <SpeedEvil> In addtion, I have been pondering making an XRM.
[1:40] <LiENUS> making?!
[1:40] <LiENUS> i wouldnt
[1:40] <SpeedEvil> I note that cheap chinese x-ray units are _really_ cheap on ebay.
[1:40] <LiENUS> ITS RADIATION
[1:40] <IT_Sean> WOOT! Package arrived today! http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4278/dscn2375q.jpg :D
[1:40] <LiENUS> you know
[1:41] <SpeedEvil> I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them
[1:41] <LiENUS> once somthings been hit by radiation
[1:41] <LiENUS> its contaminated
[1:41] <LiENUS> and the contamination spreads!
[1:41] <azalyn> is it out yet? trololol ;P
[1:41] * PiBot slaps azalyn across the face with a cast iron pan.
[1:41] <tntexplosivesltd> IT_Sean: mhm.....
[1:41] <SpeedEvil> But - for operation at several meters, through a wall.
[1:41] <LiENUS> azalyn, no he took the preorder money and ran away to mexico
[1:41] * azalyn dodges.
[1:41] <LiENUS> SpeedEvil, btw i was joking bout the contamination
[1:41] <LiENUS> id be more afraid of them exploding than radiation
[1:41] <SpeedEvil> LiENUS: Indeed.
[1:41] <LiENUS> as i recall the voltages are at quite unfriendly levels
[1:41] <IT_Sean> examining boards via xray is very common
[1:42] <LiENUS> and amperage to match
[1:42] <azalyn> what's wrong with the website
[1:42] <LiENUS> its not rly at my home its at work
[1:42] <LiENUS> but work is 5 mins away
[1:42] <azalyn> it's just a blank page
[1:42] <LiENUS> and weirdly enough
[1:42] <LiENUS> i have a bedroom there
[1:42] <LiENUS> i guess i could have an x-ray at home
[1:42] <LiENUS> if i felt like living there
[1:42] <SpeedEvil> LiENUS: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Low-Dose-Dental-Portable-Mobile-X-Ray-Unit-Macine-Equipment-Digital-/260906465351?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Medical_Equipment_Instruments_ET&hash=item3cbf3cb847
[1:42] <IT_Sean> somebody buggered up the website.
[1:43] <LiENUS> but id rather have the 5 minute drive and not have dogs barking all night long
[1:43] <MystX> everyone loves living at wrk
[1:43] <LiENUS> IT_Sean, anonymous
[1:43] <LiENUS> i wouldnt mind
[1:43] <LiENUS> its just the dogs barking
[1:43] <LiENUS> plus itd be awkward when i stumble out in the morning to go shower followed by two girls
[1:43] <MystX> lol
[1:43] <LiENUS> not to mention id have to cross client area to get there
[1:43] <MystX> Youd get hi fives form me
[1:43] <MystX> from*
[1:44] <victhor> ooh, so it seems I'm not the only one getting a blank page from raspi's site
[1:44] <IT_Sean> victhor nope
[1:44] <SpeedEvil> They're clearly updating it for some reason.
[1:44] <LiENUS> walk accross the hall they lead clients down when bringing them back
[1:44] <IT_Sean> we've extended the blank page service to all users
[1:44] <LiENUS> behind the reception desk
[1:44] <LiENUS> and then accross the hall the clients stand in when checking out
[1:44] <MystX> Or they're migrating to the new server
[1:44] <SpeedEvil> (I wonder if that reason is beyond /.)
[1:44] <LiENUS> woo
[1:44] <traeak> cool site is toast
[1:44] <IT_Sean> relax all... it will (hopefully) be back up soon.
[1:44] <traeak> hehe
[1:45] <MystX> And then the boards will be released
[1:45] <IT_Sean> MystX, don't hold your breath.
[1:45] <MystX> lol
[1:45] <traeak> so is there any reason to believe apple's macbooks are any more reliable then say an ibm stinkpad ?
[1:45] <MystX> I dunno, i have a large lung capacity
[1:45] <azalyn> SpeedEvil: i've always wondered if cheap xray units like that could be adapted somehow for verifying electronics. if not now, then maybe in future..
[1:45] <LiENUS> MystX, i would cummed
[1:45] <SpeedEvil> azalyn: In principle, as I understand it, possibly.
[1:45] <MystX> 0.o
[1:46] <MystX> traeak: mocbooks have terrible reliability
[1:46] <SpeedEvil> azalyn: You will need a reciever of some form, I was wondering about a simple scintillator, with a scope pointed at it
[1:46] <MystX> macbooks*
[1:46] <SpeedEvil> With a scanning platform
[1:46] <azalyn> SpeedEvil: it would be nice if *one day* bga verification could become more affordable. and hobbyists could get more into reballing stuff, while being able to verify their work.
[1:46] <SpeedEvil> azalyn: Destructive is easy
[1:46] <azalyn> i've seen people turning toasters into reflow ovens.
[1:46] <SpeedEvil> azalyn: belt sander
[1:46] <IT_Sean> heh... reballing
[1:46] <IT_Sean> :p
[1:46] <LiENUS> moc books?
[1:46] <LiENUS> wat
[1:46] <LiENUS> moc boks!
[1:46] <victhor> do you need a receiver? I mean, isn't film enough?
[1:47] <SpeedEvil> victhor: In principle, yes
[1:47] <traeak> MystX: not surprised...then again sony, dell don't have good recent track records
[1:47] <victhor> ok, it involves chemical processes and dark rooms and stuff like that...
[1:47] <LiENUS> geef my an moc bok pro
[1:47] <SpeedEvil> victhor: But film requires development at least, and makes scanning larger areas really awkward
[1:47] <MystX> bor
[1:47] <victhor> yes...
[1:47] <MystX> bro*
[1:47] <MystX> Dammit
[1:47] <traeak> the lenovo 'x' series then ?
[1:48] <SpeedEvil> I love my x60s
[1:48] * IT_Sean is looking at the lenovo x series for his next laptop
[1:48] * SpeedEvil is annoyed at market failures.
[1:48] <LiENUS> wrkn n a cl mn gn dwn dwn dwn wrkn n a cl mn gn dwn dwn dwn wps bt 2 slp
[1:48] <victhor> every time I see those X-ray "digital" systems, I think "that thing probably costs more than the house I live in" lol.
[1:48] <azalyn> if imaging is poor, you could use some computer heuristics maybe.. to compensate
[1:48] <SpeedEvil> WTF can't I buy a 4:3 laptop.
[1:48] <victhor> it looks so large and expensive.
[1:48] <IT_Sean> Looking at anX220
[1:48] <azalyn> maybe some algorithm that could see things you can't.
[1:49] <azalyn> 4:3 sucks. :(
[1:49] <azalyn> i want my 16:10 back though..
[1:49] <azalyn> i hate 16:9
[1:49] <traeak> SpeedEvil: 4:3 is overrated just like optical drives
[1:50] <SpeedEvil> traeak: Which would be fine.
[1:50] <SpeedEvil> traeak: I have no problem with it being a choice.
[1:50] <SpeedEvil> But the fact that I cannot purchase one irritates.
[1:51] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[1:51] * tlf82 (~TLF@99-64-51-130.lightspeed.lbcktx.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:51] <Tachyon`> hrm
[1:52] <Tachyon`> I'm unable to access the site
[1:52] <Tachyon`> I'm just getting 500
[1:52] <SpeedEvil> OMG! The store is live!
[1:52] <traeak> howahh
[1:52] <SpeedEvil> (not really)
[1:52] <tlf82> yeah i just tired too...
[1:52] <tlf82> its down
[1:52] <tntexplosivesltd> there's no server error cide
[1:52] <tntexplosivesltd> * code
[1:52] <Tachyon`> there is, 500
[1:52] <Tachyon`> internal server error
[1:52] <tntexplosivesltd> just a blank page
[1:52] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:52] <traeak> SpeedEvil: ahh...we have an old pentiumM 12" at home that's int he corner. the 4:3 ratio really irritated me
[1:53] <tlf82> i think someone is just trying to tease us.
[1:53] <Tachyon`> well, your client is broken then, it is a 500
[1:53] * cerberos (~cerberos@118.173.86.85.adsl.dynamic.totbb.net) Quit (Quit: cerberos)
[1:53] <tntexplosivesltd> Tachyon`: what client?
[1:53] <tntexplosivesltd> are you using?
[1:53] <traeak> the x220 keyboard looks pretty interesting...still from the 90's it seems
[1:54] <Tachyon`> chrome
[1:54] <Tachyon`> and yes, I mean browser, although it technically is a client, I'm tired
[1:54] <tntexplosivesltd> I get a 500 in lynx, firefox is blank lol
[1:54] <tntexplosivesltd> but I have seen 500s before
[1:54] <Tachyon`> oh, odd
[1:54] <SpeedEvil> wget says 200
[1:54] <SpeedEvil> In wierd encodings
[1:54] <Tachyon`> strange, that's normally no error
[1:54] <traeak> wish they did laptops with keyboard cherry blue switches
[1:55] * flexd (~flexd@dev.flexd.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[1:55] <IT_Sean> traeak.. IMO, thinkpad keyboards are heaven to type on.
[1:55] <SpeedEvil> <head>
[1:55] <SpeedEvil>
[1:55] <SpeedEvil> <title>Raspberry Pi Store</title>
[1:55] <SpeedEvil> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
[1:55] <SpeedEvil> From wget
[1:55] <SpeedEvil> Odd
[1:56] <piofcube> store works for me but only stickers available
[1:56] <Tachyon`> hrm
[1:56] <Tachyon`> it's a site hosted on a virtual server farm
[1:56] <Tachyon`> and attempting to get that site results in a closed connection
[1:56] <Tachyon`> attempting to get anything else yields a response
[1:56] <Tachyon`> that does not bode well
[1:57] <traeak> IT_Sean: you mean the x220 ones? it looks like the x120 uses different keys
[1:57] <IT_Sean> Justy about any thinkpad keyboard i've used is heavenly.
[1:57] <traeak> IT_Sean: any big diff? i have a nasty old dell here thats a 600p3 with a keyboard like the x220
[1:57] <IT_Sean> My work issued laptop is an SL410. Great keyboard on that.
[1:57] <traeak> IT_Sean: i only break that laptop out for when someone makes me join webex
[1:58] <Tachyon`> my old 486 laptop was a thinkpad (for 64HDD Pro)
[1:58] <Tachyon`> had a strange two part keyboard
[1:58] <Tachyon`> it expanded and slid together so it was actually wider than teh machine when opened
[1:58] <IT_Sean> weeeeird
[1:58] <Tachyon`> yeah, never seen another like that
[1:59] <IT_Sean> I used to have an old thinkpad T20. Great little machine.
[1:59] <traeak> IT_Sean: SL compared with X ?
[1:59] <IT_Sean> I haven't typerd on the X series yet.
[1:59] <IT_Sean> *typed.
[1:59] <traeak> ahh okay
[1:59] <traeak> looks like the x220 is more like your SL key wise compared to the x1xx series ones
[2:00] <IT_Sean> It does look like a similar keyboard
[2:00] <traeak> http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/thinkpad/x-series/
[2:00] <merlin1991> raspbpi down, yay
[2:00] <IT_Sean> I'm looking at the X Series convertable tablets, actually.
[2:00] <traeak> they hit the screensizes for these just right
[2:00] * heraclitus_ (~heraclitu@sa-167-29.saturn.infonet.ee) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:00] <tntexplosivesltd> traeak: cherry blues are god tier =D
[2:00] <Tachyon`> this expanding thinkpad is the 701CS
[2:01] * IT_Sean googles
[2:01] <IT_Sean> That is weeird
[2:01] <MystX> Mm yeah. I use a keyboard
[2:01] <Tachyon`> aye, an interesting way to keep the machine small but with full size keys
[2:02] <IT_Sean> I suppose. Although, one good drop and you would be hosed.
[2:02] <Tachyon`> I dunno, it worked for many years as my 64HDD server
[2:02] <Tachyon`> it finaly gave up the ghost last year
[2:02] <Tachyon`> and has been replaced with a P3 800, lol
[2:02] <IT_Sean> what died?
[2:02] <Tachyon`> I don't know, it got increasingly difficult to get it to power up
[2:02] <IT_Sean> bummer
[2:02] <Tachyon`> often it'd just sit there on but not doing anything
[2:02] <Tachyon`> and take several restarts before it'd start counting memory, booting etc.
[2:02] <traeak> tntexplosivesltd: think of how it woudl go over if you had cherry blue switches and were typing on an airplane ?
[2:03] <IT_Sean> heh
[2:03] <tntexplosivesltd> traeak: that's why I have browns =)
[2:03] <Tachyon`> shame really as it was a very reliable computer for 64HDD and the current one is anything but, too fast you see, it's a dos app with fine timing and doesn't like fast machines, unfortunately this P3 800 is the slowest I could find
[2:03] <tntexplosivesltd> good for the office enviroment
[2:04] <traeak> tntexplosivesltd: i use ancient silitek 6000 keyboards that are membrane....have to have a split ergo or i toast my wrists
[2:04] <piofcube> Tachyon: You could glue a button on your new machine and label it "Turbo"... like in the ole' days ;-)
[2:04] <tntexplosivesltd> =(
[2:05] <Tachyon`> lol, it wouldn't really help
[2:05] <Tachyon`> I really need something 486 based
[2:05] <Tachyon`> but who has 486 laptops these days
[2:05] <tntexplosivesltd> traeak: a friend of mine has a kinesis ergo with browns
[2:05] <IT_Sean> heh... turbo button :p
[2:05] <traeak> tntexplosivesltd: actually i hvae an old IBM M series sitting at the other computer here
[2:05] <tntexplosivesltd> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg
[2:05] * IT_Sean types on a Logitech Illuminated Keyboard at home
[2:05] <tntexplosivesltd> traeak: mmmmmmmm
[2:05] <tntexplosivesltd> =|
[2:05] <traeak> that's a bit too much
[2:05] <Tachyon`> heh, I used to have a logitech G15
[2:05] <Tachyon`> but now all I hav is the screen
[2:05] <tntexplosivesltd> hahahaha
[2:05] <tntexplosivesltd> ricer
[2:05] <Tachyon`> the tracks were water soluble -.-
[2:05] <Tachyon`> in the membrane
[2:06] <IT_Sean> haha
[2:06] <Tachyon`> didn't take well to being cleaned
[2:06] <tntexplosivesltd> =|
[2:06] <SpeedEvil> I recently imported two PS/2 IBM space-saver keyboards from canada to the UK.
[2:06] <tntexplosivesltd> that's dumb
[2:06] <traeak> yup, tagged as IBM even
[2:06] <tntexplosivesltd> SpeedEvil: =D
[2:06] <Tachyon`> I always liked hte model m keyboards
[2:06] <SpeedEvil> With the trackpoint.
[2:06] <IT_Sean> nipplemouse FTW
[2:06] <tntexplosivesltd> ps/2 is awesome. n-kro ftw
[2:06] <traeak> i had to throw anohter one away...somehow the case cracked that was a lexmark model i thnk
[2:06] <traeak> or something like that
[2:06] <traeak> yeha, this one is ps3
[2:06] <traeak> ps2 i mean
[2:06] <traeak> heh
[2:07] <traeak> i never used trackpoints so i have no clue, never go tuse to them
[2:07] <tntexplosivesltd> I have an adapter for my das ultumate s silent that takes the USB to PS/2
[2:07] <IT_Sean> I prefer a trackpad, to be honest.
[2:07] <SpeedEvil> I find it awesome for my use-case.
[2:07] <IT_Sean> The nipplemouse takes getting used to
[2:07] <SpeedEvil> At the moment, I'm operating the keyboard under the blankets.
[2:07] <traeak> tntexplosivesltd: as much as i would hate it, i would need to buy MS's copy of the keyboards i have...the natural 4000 or something
[2:07] <tntexplosivesltd> frees up a USB port
[2:07] <MystX> relevant: http://xkcd.com/243/
[2:07] <piofcube> Sounds like some kind of fetish
[2:08] <SpeedEvil> (heating issues, it's 5C in here)
[2:08] <IT_Sean> MystX, i was JUST about to post that :p
[2:08] <MystX> Ninja'd
[2:08] <IT_Sean> :p
[2:08] <IT_Sean> heh... clitmouse
[2:08] <MystX> Im 12 and i dont get it
[2:08] <tntexplosivesltd> traeak: why MS?
[2:09] <traeak> tntexplosivesltd: because that particular keyboard has the correct angle posture, etc
[2:09] <tntexplosivesltd> ah
[2:09] <SpeedEvil> I utterly, utterly hate the MS natural keyoard.
[2:09] <piofcube> I can't get used to those erganomic keyboards.. they hurt too much when I use them O_o
[2:09] <traeak> i haven't used one, the other models are uber suck, the 4000 lifts in the front, not the back
[2:10] <traeak> i first started wokring wiht sun stuff and woudl get really sore wrists
[2:10] <traeak> after that i supplied all my own stuff for the jobs i've been at
[2:10] <SpeedEvil> Then again, my typing position is odd. At the moment, I'm lying down flat, witht he keyboard in my lap.
[2:10] <Tachyon`> grr
[2:10] <Tachyon`> it should be legal to shoot eBayers who don't list details of machines or take a picture of the back so I can see what ports it has
[2:10] * DexterLB (~angel@77-85-4-201.btc-net.bg) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[2:10] <piofcube> I have a case stuck in front of this kayboard so it's difficult to type on this PC
[2:10] <traeak> i hate the thoughto f spending uber $$$ for a keyboard
[2:11] <SpeedEvil> Wrists absolutely flat.
[2:11] <traeak> "it should be legal to shoot eBayers" there, fixed that for you
[2:11] <IT_Sean> hahaha
[2:11] <SpeedEvil> I only paid $30 or so per
[2:11] <IT_Sean> balls... raspi site still down! O_O
[2:11] <traeak> per ?
[2:11] <Tachyon`> tiny P133 libretto
[2:12] <SpeedEvil> This was under 1/2 the price of the newer, suckier one
[2:12] <Tachyon`> doesn't look much bigger than my pandora
[2:12] <Tachyon`> but if it has a real parallel port would work nicely for 64HDD
[2:12] <SpeedEvil> treak I imported 2 ps/2 trackpoint keyboards to the UK from canada.
[2:13] <Tachyon`> 32MB expandable to 64MB, those were the days, lol
[2:13] <SpeedEvil> I have a PII/300 laptop in an awesome form-factor
[2:13] * IT_Sean thinks he might go and play a game
[2:13] <MystX> IT_Sean: keep your balls to youself in this r13 channel please =P
[2:13] <mrdragons> I liked when it was just 3 or 4 transistors
[2:13] <SpeedEvil> 192M limit though.
[2:13] <Tachyon`> I remember someone spending ?800 to upgrade his 486 to 32MB, in the form of 8 4
[2:13] <Tachyon`> 4MB 30 pin SIMMs
[2:13] <IT_Sean> MystX, hush.
[2:13] <SpeedEvil> I got partway through a mod to make it go to 512
[2:13] * DexterLB (~angel@77-85-4-201.btc-net.bg) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:13] <SpeedEvil> Which involved lifting the chipset BGA, and routing out the extra CS pins.
[2:13] <Tachyon`> I don't see how you could do such a mod
[2:14] <Tachyon`> oh right, like that
[2:14] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi
[2:14] <Tachyon`> BGA is evil to work with -.-
[2:14] <mrdragons> There were so few bugs back in those days; especially compared today's computers
[2:14] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[2:14] <traeak> SpeedEvil: so they're mini keyboards without the num pad ?
[2:14] <Tachyon`> I fix xboxes and ps3s, I know -.-
[2:14] <SpeedEvil> traeak: yes.
[2:14] <MystX> Tachyon`: can you fix mine?
[2:14] <traeak> mrdragons: dunno, i opened up enough old computers and found plenty of (dead) bugs
[2:14] <MystX> (360)
[2:14] <piofcube> I used to run a 3-line BBS off an 8086 LOL
[2:14] <Tachyon`> what's wrong with it?
[2:14] <Tachyon`> red ring of death?
[2:14] <traeak> SpeedEvil: yeah, that's totally ideal. small keyboards rule
[2:15] <MystX> Uhm. Scalar chip/HANA needs reballing
[2:15] <Tachyon`> you'll need to get the extended error code, it can be made to flash it in base 4
[2:15] <Tachyon`> ah right
[2:15] <SpeedEvil> traeak: The only way it's annoying is that I can't play nethack on it.
[2:15] <mrdragons> traeak: No, those are too new. I've never had any software issues with a handful of MOSFETs.
[2:15] <Tachyon`> what error are you getting? 0102?
[2:15] <MystX> The error code is 1022 from memory
[2:15] <Tachyon`> ahh
[2:15] <MystX> yeah =\
[2:15] <Tachyon`> don't mean to ask a silly queston
[2:15] <MystX> Tbh, everything needs reballing
[2:15] <Tachyon`> but have you tried a different video cable?
[2:15] <traeak> the trackpoints are spring switches?
[2:15] <MystX> Tachyon`: Yeah its definately a BGA problem
[2:16] <Tachyon`> as a faulty cable can produce that error on non HDMI xboxes
[2:16] <Tachyon`> ah, okay
[2:16] <Tachyon`> I could do it but where are you?
[2:16] <MystX> Heatgunned it, it worked for a while
[2:16] <SpeedEvil> traeak: they're an analog joystick implemented using strain guages.
[2:16] <MystX> Im in NZ =P
[2:16] <Tachyon`> oh right, then I won't do it
[2:16] <MystX> aww =(
[2:16] <Tachyon`> attacking them with heatguns just does more damage
[2:16] <Tachyon`> plus I'm in england, lol
[2:16] <Tachyon`> so the postage, heh
[2:16] <MystX> Yeah im just going to buy a jasper
[2:17] <traeak> SpeedEvil: it does seem that the keys are still buckling ones
[2:17] <SpeedEvil> traeak: I like the keyboard - it's not quite as aggressive as some of the older IBM ones.
[2:17] <SpeedEvil> traeak: And the stroke isn't quite as long.
[2:17] <SpeedEvil> But I find these to be positive.s
[2:17] <Tachyon`> probably best, I don't even have a 360 anymore
[2:17] <Tachyon`> I only like RPGs so the Wii and PS3 are fine
[2:18] <Tachyon`> nothing on the 360 that appealed to me -.-
[2:18] <Tachyon`> had a couple but it seems to be mostly shooters and racing games and so on
[2:18] * CustomTronics (~mjtessmer@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[2:19] <Tachyon`> I know there are RPGs on it but not enough to be worth the trouble, lol, the last one I was sold turned out to be banned from xbox live and microsoft refused to put it back on despite it being a second hand machine and the ban being nothing to do with me, heh
[2:19] <Tachyon`> so I'm not really anxious to give them a penny of my money for games either
[2:19] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: could just use our 360 XD
[2:20] <tntexplosivesltd> but it's not jasper =(
[2:20] <Tachyon`> bans should apply to the person, not the machine, wtf is that
[2:20] <piofcube> Another way to make more money.
[2:20] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: True. Should we just plug my HDD into yours?
[2:20] <Tachyon`> oh well, probably
[2:21] <traeak> it seems like the games industry is more than prepared to drive out its market
[2:21] <MystX> Kinda want one soonish to play on though =(
[2:21] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, well depends on whether or not you're okay with a falcon
[2:21] <traeak> all this wierd crap with crippling "used games"
[2:21] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: its not mine. No loss to me if it breaks
[2:21] <tntexplosivesltd> and ours is apart
[2:21] <tntexplosivesltd> needs the coolrunner and stuff
[2:21] <tntexplosivesltd> which I cbf doing atm
[2:22] <MystX> Hurry up and install it then =P
[2:22] <traeak> seems you're better off just pirating shit instead of getting it legitimately.... at least you know the pirated stuff has a much better chance of actually working
[2:22] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, matbe later
[2:22] <tntexplosivesltd> * maybe
[2:22] <MystX> Im not sure on whether to just use yours or not
[2:22] <tntexplosivesltd> well we'll probably use ours for the rest of the hols
[2:22] <mrdragons> traeak: Heh, yeah... It's kind of bad when the pirated version works better than the retail version.
[2:22] * tlf82 (~TLF@99-64-51-130.lightspeed.lbcktx.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
[2:22] <MystX> It is only 4 weeks or so extra
[2:22] <piofcube> I have a jasper... That's the one with the 150w power supply?
[2:23] <MystX> Mmmyes i think so
[2:23] <piofcube> Haven't used it for ages
[2:23] <MystX> Lol. I miss forza =(
[2:24] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: if i have my own i can keep it in my room =D
[2:24] <tntexplosivesltd> true
[2:24] <MystX> also: foosball?
[2:24] <tntexplosivesltd> nah
[2:24] <MystX> Others keen?
[2:25] <DaQatz> !w
[2:25] <PiBot> DaQatz: in Berwick, ME on Wed Feb 1 05:51:00 2012. Temp 25??F. Condition: Overcast, Humidity: 92%, Later 32??F - 31??F. Condition: Snow.
[2:25] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit ()
[2:25] <DaQatz> !channels
[2:25] <DaQatz> !channel
[2:25] <PiBot> DaQatz: #raspberrypi #raspberrypi-dev #raspberrypi-bots
[2:25] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: they're already there
[2:25] <MystX> oh
[2:26] <Tachyon`> !e(i*pi)+1
[2:26] <Tachyon`> bah
[2:26] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: was your xbox a falcon?
[2:31] * feep (~feep@p5B2B5598.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:32] * Jaseman (5f93f1d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.147.241.208) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:32] <Jaseman> the website seems to be down
[2:32] <Jaseman> did they go on sale?
[2:33] <SpeedEvil> It seems to have just broken.
[2:33] <Jaseman> ah
[2:33] <Jaseman> well in that case im going sleep
[2:33] <Jaseman> gnight
[2:33] <feep> it occurs to me
[2:33] <traeak> ahh the sound of server fans whining
[2:33] * imnichol (~ian@199.17.154.115) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[2:33] <feep> if somebody spread the rumor that razpis are out now
[2:33] <feep> they could probably keep the site down for days
[2:34] <Jaseman> maybe
[2:34] <traeak> actually i got in the site and made my order just before the site went down
[2:34] <traeak> reminds me of when the HP touchpads went on sale
[2:34] * piofcube refreshes... refreshes... refreshes ;-)
[2:34] <traeak> you'll have to wait for the next batch
[2:35] <Jaseman> did you really get one?
[2:35] <tntexplosivesltd> !w
[2:35] <PiBot> tntexplosivesltd: in Upper Hutt, Wellington. Temp 18??C. Condition: Rain Showers, Humidity: 94%.
[2:35] <tntexplosivesltd> =(
[2:36] <tntexplosivesltd> fuck off, rain
[2:36] <Jaseman> its replying to ping requests
[2:36] <traeak> Jaseman: just keep on refreshing and you might get in to grab one before they run out
[2:36] <Jaseman> yeah right
[2:37] <Jaseman> ill just wait
[2:37] <Jaseman> byeeee
[2:37] * Jaseman (5f93f1d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.147.241.208) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[2:37] <tntexplosivesltd> web gateway n00bz
[2:37] * cerberos (~cerberos@58.137.9.242) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:39] <traeak> those ibm mini keyboards with the joystick don't look like they have a lot of travel
[2:39] <traeak> anyways gtg or wife kills me
[2:39] <traeak> just keep refreshing and you might get in on the first batch ;-)
[2:43] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: yes, falcon
[2:43] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm
[2:43] <MystX> Played one game of foosball. Lost, sadface
[2:44] <tntexplosivesltd> against who?
[2:44] <MystX> I dunno, poeple
[2:44] <tntexplosivesltd> ...
[2:44] <MystX> I was wish josh though
[2:44] <tntexplosivesltd> sam and boris?
[2:44] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[2:44] <MystX> na
[2:44] <tntexplosivesltd> ben and liam?
[2:44] <tntexplosivesltd> * benjamin
[2:45] <MystX> ben. and i honestly cant remember who the other guy was. Im quite tired
[2:45] <tntexplosivesltd> hahahaha
[2:48] * LiENUS (~yes@2001:470:bbb3:12:f85b:8a8f:62e7:e6b9) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[2:52] <MystX> Might have been liam
[2:54] <MystX> On topic: Would a good quality USB flash drive have better radom access than the SD card for a R-Pi rootfs?
[2:54] <MystX> random*
[2:56] <SpeedEvil> It depends.
[2:56] <SpeedEvil> Maybe.
[2:56] <SpeedEvil> You can't really make generalisations alas.
[2:56] <SpeedEvil> Other than there are some very speed optimised USB cards.
[2:57] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: TLS packet ect messages)
[3:00] * rpe_ (62d465ab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.212.101.171) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:01] <rpe_> site down?
[3:01] <feep> yes
[3:01] <feep> they're not out
[3:01] <feep> it's just an error
[3:03] <rpe_> any mirrors? want to read the latest post
[3:09] * KrimZon_2 (~krimzon2@super.duper.reetleet.org) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[3:12] * KrimZon_2 (~krimzon2@super.duper.reetleet.org) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:12] <feep> I don't think google cache is that up to date
[3:13] <feep> ah
[3:13] <feep> rpe_: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xSlPN7Hc2c0J:www.raspberrypi.org/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk
[3:13] * jmontleon (~jason@c-76-19-35-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[3:13] <rpe_> oh of course, thanks
[3:15] * koaschten (~koaschten@31-16-0-231-dynip.superkabel.de) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[3:15] * imnichol (~ian@8.24.97.104) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:16] * heraclitus_ (~heraclitu@sa-167-29.saturn.infonet.ee) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[3:20] <MystX> https://twitter.com/#!/MystX1/status/164533036531195904
[3:21] <tntexplosivesltd> ...
[3:21] <tntexplosivesltd> well look at you
[3:22] <MystX> Its funny because thats why everyone else is doing to them on twitter
[3:22] <tntexplosivesltd> haven't seen
[3:22] <MystX> "why isnt there MPEG2 support" "why isnt it out yet"
[3:23] <MystX> "why no more ram"
[3:23] <MystX> Uhg
[3:23] <feep> to be fair
[3:23] <feep> I'd rather have more ram than any video codecs
[3:23] * P4R4N01D (~johndoe@189.83.154.102) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:23] <feep> but yeah, basically That Twit.
[3:23] <victhor> people don't want a cheap computer - they want a cheap computer that does absolutely everything
[3:23] <SpeedEvil> I'd rather have it able to suspend.
[3:24] <feep> ... suspend? o.o
[3:24] <victhor> does suspend need a power button? :P
[3:24] <SpeedEvil> I question if the SoC can do really deep suspend though
[3:24] <tntexplosivesltd> erm...
[3:24] <SpeedEvil> feep: yes - my phone can do ~3mA suspend
[3:24] <victhor> only some mean of generating a wake event
[3:24] <feep> SpeedEvil: I think if you put the cpu in idle and um
[3:24] <SpeedEvil> feep: idle generally uses lots of power. You need to actually shut off the clocks.
[3:24] <feep> I don't anticipate it of drawing, you know, significant amounts of power even without soooooh
[3:24] <SpeedEvil> Significant varies.
[3:25] <feep> SpeedEvil: suspend generally means saving RAM to a hard drive and powering off
[3:25] <tntexplosivesltd> from memory the GPU has very aggressive power saving
[3:25] <feep> what you mean is standby
[3:25] <tntexplosivesltd> at least
[3:25] <victhor> if you are running off AC this doesn't mean much. On battery power it's a lot different
[3:25] <MystX> feep: no, thats hibernate
[3:25] <SpeedEvil> For example, you need on the order of 100W solar panel to run the pi, idle, 24*7*365
[3:25] * Datum_Errata (~ivarr@66.129.61.31) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:25] <feep> MystX: hibernate on win, suspend on lin
[3:25] <feep> afaik
[3:25] <SpeedEvil> And a 500Wh battery
[3:25] <tntexplosivesltd> feep: nope
[3:25] <feep> tntexplosivesltd: swsusp?
[3:25] <MystX> feep: well, there's suspend to disk and suspend to ram
[3:25] <feep> right, that
[3:25] <victhor> my linux boxen all refer to "power down system but keep RAM powered" as suspend
[3:26] <feep> ooh
[3:26] <feep> I see, yeah
[3:26] <SpeedEvil> And yes, I meant to ram.
[3:26] <feep> victhor: curious
[3:26] <SpeedEvil> Oh - and 24*7*52
[3:26] <MystX> Generally i call suspending to disk 'hibernating'
[3:26] <feep> oh I think the differentiating factor is if the cpu is completely powered down
[3:26] <feep> that'd make sense with the term
[3:26] <tntexplosivesltd> I have pm-suspend/pm-hibernate. They do s2ram/s2disk repectively
[3:27] <MystX> But i dont really see much point in hibernation other than for power loss situations
[3:27] * rpe_ (62d465ab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.212.101.171) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[3:27] <feep> faster boot~
[3:27] <MystX> Not really =\
[3:27] <SpeedEvil> Wakeup on timer is great for power saving.
[3:27] <feep> used to be important.
[3:27] <SpeedEvil> If the platform can't do it properly.
[3:27] <MystX> Still have to load everything from disk
[3:27] <feep> MystX: not so important with modern boot times
[3:27] <MystX> Id rather have a really good s2ram tbh for the R-Pi
[3:28] <MystX> That'd be neat
[3:28] <SpeedEvil> It's going to depend on the implementation.
[3:28] <MystX> Yeah
[3:28] <SpeedEvil> The datasheet for the SoC is as far as I understand - completely closed.
[3:28] <victhor> the less crappier RTCs have alarm functions and NVRAM. I don't know how wake events are handled in software, but AFAIK on hardware you just need 1 extra GPIO for the alarm pin.
[3:28] <MystX> In totally going to try s2ram when i get arch on one though =P
[3:28] <SpeedEvil> So we're stuck (largely) with the suspend/standby/low-power modes they give us.
[3:29] <victhor> program the alarm before sleep, and when the RTC hits that moment, it sends a "alarm" event through the alarm pins.
[3:29] <MystX> victhor: you could have a point there
[3:29] <Datum_Errata> So, rasberrypi.org is down. I'm wondering if it's just traffic from news or if they're doing an update.
[3:29] <MystX> Datum_Errata: Its probably not due to an announcement
[3:30] <Datum_Errata> bummer
[3:30] <MystX> Doesnt require taking down the whole site =P
[3:30] <feep> it's not down
[3:30] <feep> it's broken
[3:30] <feep> afaik
[3:30] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah, seems that way
[3:31] <Datum_Errata> broken is like down
[3:31] <tntexplosivesltd> if it was down surely they would hve a redirect
[3:31] <tntexplosivesltd> * have
[3:31] <tntexplosivesltd> Datum_Errata: down = intentional = prior warning
[3:32] * jardiamj (~jardiamj@rdbk.p1-144.molalla.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:32] <Datum_Errata> fair enough
[3:32] <jardiamj> is the Pi's website down?
[3:32] <mrdragons> Yep
[3:32] <jardiamj> the .org one...
[3:32] <Datum_Errata> it's broken
[3:32] <victhor> yes
[3:33] <jardiamj> ok, that explains why I cannot access it then... lol
[3:34] <Datum_Errata> I have a feeling when they do go on sale they are going to sell out like The Beattles reunion tickets
[3:34] <mrdragons> I guess getting too much traffic is a much more desirable problem than not getting enough
[3:35] <MystX> Not for us =P
[3:35] <mrdragons> tr00
[3:35] <SpeedEvil> Have to wait a bit for Beatles reunion tickets.
[3:35] <MystX> Ew.
[3:35] <Datum_Errata> Oh? You have an 'in'?
[3:38] <Datum_Errata> Thin clients, clusters, project boards, saltstack - I'm looking forward to it
[3:39] <Dagger2> .com is on different servers to .org though, so it's entirely possible it'll be less flakey
[3:40] <MystX> OH MAN i forgot about this song
[3:41] <MystX> Carl Sagan - Glorious Down (ft. Stephen Hawking)
[3:41] <MystX> Thats right
[3:41] <MystX> Dawn*
[3:41] <Datum_Errata> Hawking was the man
[3:41] <MystX> Is*
[3:41] <Datum_Errata> err, Sagan
[3:41] <Ben64> sagan was the man
[3:42] <MystX> Oh yeah
[3:42] <Ben64> I really like Tyson
[3:42] <MystX> Who?
[3:42] <Ben64> Neil deGrasse Tyson
[3:43] <MystX> Oh, yeah of course
[3:43] <Ben64> he's brilliant
[3:43] <Ben64> http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpqi2spuug1qa0qzpo1_500.jpg
[3:43] <Ben64> and he could kick ass
[3:44] <Datum_Errata> except he's supported Pluto's demotion.
[3:45] <MystX> Well, most people did
[3:46] <Datum_Errata> It has moons. It counts
[3:46] <MystX> Thats not what classifies a planet though
[3:47] <MystX> some large asteroids have moons
[3:47] <Datum_Errata> It has atmosphere
[3:48] <MystX> It does? 0.o
[3:48] <Datum_Errata> "Pluto's atmosphere consists of a thin envelope of nitrogen, methane, and carbon monoxide gases, which are derived from the ices of these substances on its surface"
[3:48] <MystX> And then i was retweeted by @Raspberry_Pi. I can die now
[3:49] <SpeedEvil> that sounds unlikely
[3:49] <SpeedEvil> I'd have thought methane would have completely frozen out
[3:50] <Datum_Errata> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto#Atmosphere
[3:50] <MystX> There's probably a little in the atmosphere. still doesnt make it a planet
[3:50] <SpeedEvil> The moon has atmosphere too.
[3:50] <MystX> The sun has an atmosphere =P
[3:51] <Datum_Errata> If an asteroid has moons and atmosphere it's just a planet with a larger orbit.
[3:51] * hamitron (~hamitron@just.screw-the.eu) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[3:51] <MystX> Tell that to NASA
[3:51] * Soul_Est (~nolanhayn@CPE0017f2324fce-CM0012250096a8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:52] * UnderSampled|tab (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:56] * Liam` (~quassel@ool-4a5ac772.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
[3:57] * Liam` (~quassel@ool-4a5ac772.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:58] * nsc (~nsc@tardis.chantrell.net) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[3:58] * nsc (~nsc@tardis.chantrell.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:59] * customtronics (~puppy@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:07] <Dagger2> UnderSampled|tab: my TL-WR703N has arrived!
[4:07] <Dagger2> it seems to work, and this one came with openwrt installed
[4:08] <Dagger2> ... assuming I'm connected to the right network; it's kinda hard to tell...
[4:09] * UnderSampled|tab (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[4:11] <Dagger2> was it something I said? :(
[4:12] <mrdragons> You have brought great dishonor upon our family
[4:13] * Simon- (simon@proxima.lp0.eu) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[4:14] * Simon- (simon@proxima.lp0.eu) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:17] <tntexplosivesltd> a planet is a planet if it has cleared its orbital path, which pluto hasn't
[4:17] <mrdragons> Has uranus?
[4:18] <tntexplosivesltd> yes
[4:18] <mrdragons> Huh, I thought it had an orbit of 700 years or something?
[4:18] * mchou (~quassel@unaffiliated/mchou) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:18] <tntexplosivesltd> so?
[4:18] <tntexplosivesltd> http://www.astronomycast.com/2010/08/ep-194-dwarf-planets/
[4:19] <mrdragons> How have we seen it complete it's orbit?
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> that explains it all
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> we don't need to?
[4:19] <mchou> hey, so did pi go on sale? raspberrypi.org web site is down
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[4:19] <mrdragons> Is it out yet?
[4:19] * PiBot slaps mrdragons across the face with a cast iron pan.
[4:19] <mchou> just wondering if the site got hammered
[4:19] <mrdragons> that's a nope
[4:19] <mrdragons> Site's down, yes
[4:19] <tntexplosivesltd> follow them on twitter for goes sake
[4:20] <tntexplosivesltd> * gods sake
[4:20] <mchou> shit man
[4:20] <mchou> who uses twitter
[4:20] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[4:20] <mchou> it ain't some teenybopper joint :)
[4:21] <tntexplosivesltd> obviously everyone on here who keeps asking the same question, that has been asked and answered A MILLION times
[4:21] <ctyler> pfft, it's just the .org that's down. If the .com was down, that would be interesting.
[4:21] <feep> yeah
[4:21] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: how else are you expecting to keep up to date?
[4:21] <EiNSTeiN_> I read that as "You have brought great dinausors upon our family"
[4:21] <EiNSTeiN_> i lol'd
[4:21] <tntexplosivesltd> coming in here and asking every 5 minutes?
[4:21] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: if it's been asked a billion times, how about changing the topic to announce that?
[4:21] <ctyler> that's it!
[4:22] * prbz_ (~prebz@c83-254-51-59.bredband.comhem.se) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[4:22] <tntexplosivesltd> we can't change the topic
[4:22] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: I didn't ask YOU to change the topic
[4:22] <mrdragons> topic *slaps you across the face with a lukewarm fish*
[4:22] <tntexplosivesltd> 16:21 < mchou> tntexplosivesltd: if it's been asked a billion times, how about changing the topic to announce that?
[4:22] <mrdragons> That'd work, right?
[4:22] <tntexplosivesltd> yes you did
[4:23] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: tell me where I explictly said "you" in that quote
[4:24] * prbz (~prebz@c83-254-51-59.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:24] * cerberos (~cerberos@58.137.9.242) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[4:24] <MystX> The point is, no one here can. No its not on sale. If you dont want to piss people off, at least CHECK the R-Pi twitter account before asking
[4:25] <mrdragons> Or ask if it's out yet, the bot handles that one
[4:25] <Dagger2> or the store, which is where they'll be if they start selling them
[4:25] <MystX> ^truth
[4:25] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: also I never said I can't change it, I said WE can't change it
[4:26] <tntexplosivesltd> so you invalidated your own point
[4:26] <mrdragons> Although I suspect DaQatz will be too busy ordering a pi to update the bot the minute it comes out. :P
[4:26] <mchou> who is "we"? someone has op to the channel
[4:26] <mrdragons> Just ask ukscone when he returns
[4:26] <tntexplosivesltd> mrdragons: probably yes
[4:26] * MystX checks /who
[4:27] <tntexplosivesltd> .who
[4:27] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[4:27] <tntexplosivesltd> lolololol
[4:27] <MystX> fail
[4:27] * cerberos (~cerberos@58.137.9.242) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:27] <DaQatz> Hmmm
[4:27] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: /names is faster XD
[4:27] <MystX> True
[4:28] <DaQatz> Sites down, think they are just switching hosting.
[4:28] <tntexplosivesltd> dawwwwwwwww http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epUk3T2Kfno
[4:28] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: go time in a few minutes?
[4:28] <tntexplosivesltd> mhm
[4:30] <MystX> Actually, packing up now
[4:30] * MystX (~MystX@ec2-107-21-100-215.compute-1.amazonaws.com) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[4:37] * victhor (~victhor@177.19.55.116) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[4:43] * LiENUS (~yes@2001:470:bbb3:12:705d:61e8:de8b:9e55) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:47] * cdaly (416efe9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.110.254.157) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:49] * ukscone1 (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) has left #raspberrypi
[4:49] * ukscone1 (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:50] * UnderSampled|tab (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:51] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: do you think it could work easily as a repeater?
[4:53] <Dagger2> what does it need to do to do that?
[4:54] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: I don't know, I think that most routers can do it
[4:54] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: how does the signal strength seem?
[4:54] <UnderSampled|tab> does it have an antenna port?
[4:55] <Dagger2> no antenna port, just the onboard tiny PCB copper square thing
[4:56] <Dagger2> my tests are a bit stalled at the moment because the wireless network has disappeared, and it's not set up (?) to work through the ethernet port
[4:56] <Dagger2> which is... a bit of an issue
[4:57] <UnderSampled|tab> interesting
[5:02] <UnderSampled|tab> what are the dimensions of it compared to a raspi?
[5:03] <UnderSampled|tab> Dagger2: ^
[5:03] <Dagger2> let me get my raspi out to compare it with...
[5:04] <Dagger2> 57mm square and 18mm thick
[5:05] <Dagger2> the RPi will be about the same thickness if you put it in a case, since the height on both is bounded by the network port
[5:07] <Datum_Errata> It says it's a 3G mobile wireless router, but it looks like it's just a regular wireless router with a USB port and DD-WRT
[5:07] * customtronics (~puppy@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[5:08] <SpeedEvil> There are lots of that sort around now.
[5:08] <Dagger2> the original firmware (not DD-WRT, some chinese thing) takes a 3G USB stick and can use that for the WAN
[5:08] <Dagger2> bit of a cop-out, but I suppose software support is needed
[5:09] <Datum_Errata> it's still pretty cool having a USB port. You can do cool things like wireless printer and scanning
[5:09] <DaQatz> openwrt on a router rocks
[5:11] <Dagger2> I'm trying to install/find drivers for my USB wireless stick... Ralink want me to fill out my name and email address at the bottom of http://www.ralinktech.com/en/04_support/license.php?sn=5012
[5:11] <Datum_Errata> Also, stick a USB drive on there and make like an intranet at random places - like a subway car or an airport
[5:12] <Dagger2> if you hit Accept without filling those out, it says "Your name cannot be Null!". if however you put "Null" in the name field, it accepts it just fine, so apparently it /can/ be Null
[5:12] * Hesmon (~fp@p4FDB6305.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[5:12] <Datum_Errata> oh Ralink...
[5:13] <Datum_Errata> Now I want to name my dog or kid Null
[5:14] <Datum_Errata> middle name: chemiluminescence
[5:15] * cdaly (416efe9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.110.254.157) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[5:15] * Hesmon (~fp@p4FE3A94D.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:20] <UnderSampled|tab> I know for the sprint 3g/4g usb stick I have used in the past, all it took to get working on linux was to modprobe usbserial on it
[5:26] <Dagger2> ok, the ethernet does work, it's just configured as a LAN port rather than WAN port (i.e. it's giving rather than requesting leases)
[5:26] <Dagger2> and apparently I'd accidentally disabled the wireless
[5:27] <Datum_Errata> That would do it.
[5:27] <Dagger2> the web UI has a choice of AP, Client, Ad-Hoc, 802.11s, "Pseudo Ad-hoc (ahdemo)", Monitor, AP (WDS) and Client (WDS) modes, if one of those does what you wanted
[5:28] <Datum_Errata> Client WDS is probably similar to a repeater
[5:31] <Datum_Errata> Ad-Hoc sounds like a wierd option on an AP. I guess that might be for just the one connection when using 3G on the USB
[5:32] <Datum_Errata> Client connects to another access point so you can connect through the RJ45. You can't connect wirelessly to an AP in Client mode
[5:33] <Dagger2> it's using the OpenWRT web interface, so that's just one more feature of OpenWRT rather than something intended for this specific device
[5:33] * imnichol_ (~ian@8.24.97.104) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:34] * imnichol_ (~ian@8.24.97.104) Quit (Client Quit)
[5:35] <Dagger2> ah, multi-SSID mode works too, so you can connect to an upstream AP while having your own local one as well
[5:35] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca5640.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[5:35] <Datum_Errata> nice
[5:36] * LiENUX (~yes@ip68-11-254-175.br.br.cox.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:36] <Dagger2> there's no IPv6 in the firmware it came with, so I'm going to have to compile my own :(
[5:38] <Datum_Errata> Might try dd-wrt too
[5:39] * LiENUS (~yes@2001:470:bbb3:12:705d:61e8:de8b:9e55) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[5:39] <Datum_Errata> Can you get root?
[5:40] <Datum_Errata> I haven't played with OpenWRT, but I have DD-WRT. In DD-WRT you can telnet to the router (when enabled). User: root Password: whateveryousetup
[5:40] <Dagger2> it's running OpenWRT, of course I can :P
[5:40] <Henchman21> ddwrt is lame
[5:40] <Dagger2> had to set a password in the web UI, but then you just ssh in
[5:40] <Datum_Errata> okay, didn't know if it was a custom OpenWrt build
[5:41] <Dagger2> and yeah, I roughly agree with Henchman21, so I'm not trying DD-WRT on here
[5:41] <Datum_Errata> Henchman21: why's that? From everything I've read it's just a preference thing
[5:41] <Henchman21> its like the ubuntu of router firmwares
[5:41] * EastLight (t@5ac4afd7.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[5:42] * relaxed (~relaxed@unaffiliated/relaxed) Quit (Quit: ??????)
[5:42] <Henchman21> great for windows tards
[5:42] <Dagger2> (it's not in their router database either, and I get the impression DD-WRT has roughly died. pretty sure they've been at v24 preSP2 for a year or two now)
[5:42] <Datum_Errata> Eh, maybe I should check out OpenWRT again.
[5:42] * UnderSampled|tab (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[5:42] <mchou> Henchman21: haha, and buggy as hell, just like ubuntu
[5:42] <Henchman21> god forbid you use openwrt and learn something about gnu/linux
[5:43] <Dagger2> openwrt has a web interface nowadays (called LuCI), which appears to work fine
[5:43] <Dagger2> though this is the first time I've used it
[5:43] <Henchman21> i dont include the webif on my builds
[5:43] <Henchman21> takes up precious space
[5:43] <mchou> Henchman21: openwrt is so easy these days. no learning really needed
[5:43] <Datum_Errata> gui and cli both have their places.
[5:44] <mchou> Datum_Errata: openwrt gui is a bit heavy
[5:44] <Datum_Errata> Ahh
[5:44] <Henchman21> anyone else getting a blank page visiting raspberrypi.org ?
[5:44] <mchou> Henchman21: yup, website is down
[5:45] <mrdragons> I might put talkbot back on just to answer that question
[5:45] <Henchman21> raspberrypi.com is working (webstore)
[5:45] <mchou> Henchman21: I've already asked for topic to be updated but some smartass told me to check tweet
[5:45] <Datum_Errata> I'm just comparing setting up VLANs on several interfaces through a cli or gui. The gui is so much faster and easier. Just a glance and a bunch of clicks. CLI is a lot more powerful, though.
[5:45] <Henchman21> but still no board in the webstore
[5:46] <mrdragons> Smartass, or words of wisdom?
[5:46] <mchou> mrdragons: lol. looking for wisdom in tweets?
[5:46] <mchou> mrdragons: most of us have progressed beyond our teenage years
[5:46] <Dagger2> /dev/sda1 on /mnt type ntfs (ro,relatime,uid=0,gid=0,fmask=0177,dmask=077,nls=iso8851-1,errors=continue,mft_zone_multiplier=1)
[5:47] <Dagger2> so... it has NTFS support, but no IPv6. how useful in a router.
[5:47] <Henchman21> i have a Wrt54GL and wndr3700
[5:48] <Datum_Errata> NTFS! They should print that right on the box as a feature
[5:48] <mchou> pfft
[5:48] <mrdragons> Checking for news updates on twitter seems logical.
[5:48] <mrdragons> "site is down, should be back up whenever" could fit in 140 chars.
[5:48] <mchou> mrdragons: no, checking topic for news updates is even more logical
[5:48] <Henchman21> GL has a mmc mod with like a 2gb card i use for the rootfs and the wndr has a usb port i use for root
[5:49] <mrdragons> Not really, because there's not always someone with ops on here
[5:49] <mrdragons> "topic" is not supposed to be a constant news stream
[5:49] <mchou> an op just showed up half an hour ago
[5:49] <mrdragons> Ok, cool, did he change the topic?
[5:50] <mrdragons> Nope
[5:50] <mchou> mrdragons: nope
[5:50] <mrdragons> Oh well
[5:51] <mrdragons> Besides, the topic can only be 160 chars
[5:51] <mrdragons> How is that better than a twitter post?
[5:51] * relaxed (~relaxed@unaffiliated/relaxed) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:51] <mchou> because engineering types don't use twitter
[5:51] <tntexplosivesltd> oh god still this
[5:52] <tntexplosivesltd> i am an engineer
[5:52] <mrdragons> He has something to prove I guess
[5:52] <mchou> mrdragons: it's not about proving anything. Some people don't use twitter
[5:52] <mchou> that's a simple fact
[5:52] <Dagger2> uh, the topic is currently 378 bytes. it's probably limited by the 512 character limit on messages in IRC (though the limit will be less than 512 bytes)
[5:53] <Henchman21> or bookface
[5:53] <Datum_Errata> "Can't ping the machine the website lives on at all; it's like it's not there. Support ticket in; hopefully it'll be fixed in the morning."
[5:53] <Datum_Errata> https://twitter.com/raspberry_pi
[5:54] <tntexplosivesltd> an irc channel isn't the only way to stay up to date
[5:54] <Datum_Errata> !!!
[5:54] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: I didn't claim it was
[5:54] <tntexplosivesltd> then why expect it to
[5:55] <Datum_Errata> It's probably the most textually conversational way to stay up to date
[5:55] <Dagger2> I 'm getting about 16 MB/s dding from the NTFS USB drive to /dev/null
[5:55] <Henchman21> i tend to check the site daily
[5:55] <Dagger2> and 6 MB/s using md5sum
[5:55] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[5:55] <mchou> but to EXPECT people to go to twitter first is beyond all lameness, like expecting people to use bookface
[5:55] <Datum_Errata> or the most conversationally textual way...
[5:55] <mrdragons> He just said to check twitter for info
[5:55] <mrdragons> That's all
[5:55] <mrdragons> Christ
[5:55] <Henchman21> cant wait to order a raspberry pi to play with
[5:55] <mchou> mrdragons: scroll up
[5:55] <Dagger2> (the processor is a 400 MHz MIPS core, but I don't know how that stacks up against the RPi)
[5:56] <mchou> mrdragons: he said it with attitude
[5:56] <mrdragons> Is this jersey shore or something?
[5:56] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, getting annoyed at people coming on here and shit-stirring
[5:56] <tntexplosivesltd> just get over it
[5:56] <mrdragons> "He said that funny"
[5:57] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: billions of flies eat shit doesn't mean shit is good eats
[5:58] * LiENUX (~yes@ip68-11-254-175.br.br.cox.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[5:58] <Datum_Errata> yeah, how bout them chrome plated MHz
[5:58] <tntexplosivesltd> your point being?
[5:58] <mrdragons> Twitter is too mainstream
[5:59] <mchou> mrdragons: nope, that's not the point
[5:59] <mchou> got nothing to do with mainstram
[5:59] <mrdragons> Do you even know what your point is...?
[5:59] <mchou> got nothing to do with mainstream
[6:00] <tntexplosivesltd> the point was lost hours ago
[6:00] <Datum_Errata> I think the point is that someone was potentially rude and dismissive
[6:00] <mrdragons> This is fucking childish.
[6:00] <DaQatz> I can be rude and dismissive.
[6:00] <DaQatz> It's fun!
[6:01] <tntexplosivesltd> it is...
[6:01] * mrdragons (~lucas@175.45.25.92) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[6:01] <Datum_Errata> like when you have a bad day and someone asks "oh, that's so sad, are you going to blog about it?"
[6:02] <DaQatz> When I have a bad, I'm lucky someone doesn't spit in my face when I mention it.
[6:02] <tntexplosivesltd> why should they care lol
[6:02] <Datum_Errata> exactly
[6:04] <Datum_Errata> life sucks. Wear a helmet
[6:05] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, wonder what caused the site outage in the first place
[6:05] <mchou> a foam lid aint gonna protect yer noggin from concussions :)
[6:06] <tntexplosivesltd> unless it's soft foam
[6:06] <SpeedEvil> mchou: It can, in some cases.
[6:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjSYfwZpj3U
[6:06] <Datum_Errata> it didn't sound like they knew. There's a ticket open with their host. They suspect it was overloaded.
[6:06] <mchou> SpeedEvil: pfft. That's like an act of god corner case
[6:07] <mchou> SpeedEvil: a helmet might have its place, but don't expect it to be the be all end all
[6:07] <tntexplosivesltd> heh overloaded now? have they changed host yet?
[6:08] <tntexplosivesltd> oh god stop arguing every point
[6:10] <Datum_Errata> It's probably good they saw it overload before they start selling the things. It gives them time to either get a new host or to fix their crap
[6:10] <mchou> Datum_Errata: yeah, dry run :)
[6:11] <mchou> hammered site won't be good for blood pressure
[6:12] <Datum_Errata> meh, when there's nothing you can do it's better not to worry about it
[6:13] <Datum_Errata> don't sweat the petty things; pet the sweatty things
[6:13] <mchou> hyperhydrosis ftw
[6:14] <Datum_Errata> The pi's are going to sell like hot cakes - raspberry hot cakes. It really won't matter much if it goes down for a bit. In fact, it could even be a good thing. It shows demand
[6:14] * qptain_Nemo (~qN@81.200.28.83) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:15] <mchou> mpeg2 license option would have been nice tho
[6:16] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, saves transcoding
[6:17] <tntexplosivesltd> tbh I haven't seen mpeg2 in ages
[6:18] <tntexplosivesltd> what's it used for?
[6:18] <mchou> TV in US and Korea
[6:18] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[6:18] <mchou> probably some other countries too
[6:19] <Datum_Errata> mpeg4 - good stuff
[6:20] * jmontleon (~jason@c-76-19-35-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:20] <Datum_Errata> you can just install it after you get it, right? Or am I missing something?
[6:20] <mchou> Datum_Errata: doubtful
[6:21] <tntexplosivesltd> why not?
[6:21] <tntexplosivesltd> if it's been ported to linux
[6:21] <mchou> oh lord
[6:21] <tntexplosivesltd> which it has
[6:22] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: now I know you are no engineer
[6:22] <tntexplosivesltd> it might not be hardware accelerated
[6:22] <Dagger2> it needs to be ported to the *GPU* to have any hope of playing non-SD videos
[6:22] <Datum_Errata> I only know as much about video as to play the videos I want. I don't know if there's a hardware requirement that would need to be build in. That doesn't seem likely, though.
[6:22] <mchou> if you have to ask that
[6:22] <Dagger2> and nobody can do that because the GPU is closed-source etc
[6:22] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: good luck rendering mpeg HD w/o HW
[6:22] <tntexplosivesltd> i know it can't be hardware accolerated
[6:23] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[6:23] <Dagger2> well, if you're happy with CPU-only decoding then there's no problem
[6:23] <tntexplosivesltd> some people here have high hopes for the r-pi
[6:24] <Dagger2> but the maximum resolution you can decode in real-time is going to be limited
[6:24] <Datum_Errata> so, it's a driver issue?
[6:24] <tntexplosivesltd> i thought you were one of them
[6:24] <relaxed> It has hardware accelerated h264 decoding. I saw the youtube videos where it was playing the video.
[6:24] <mchou> Dagger2: yeah, if it doesn't SKIP
[6:24] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: i am an engineer yes
[6:25] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: apparently not a very good one
[6:25] <Datum_Errata> mchou - there are tons of types of engineers
[6:26] <tntexplosivesltd> i don't specialise in dardware-accelerated video numbnuts
[6:26] <mchou> Datum_Errata: yup, indeed
[6:26] <tntexplosivesltd> * hardware
[6:27] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: no, but I'd expect you to be familiar with what you're buying
[6:27] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: and not be a tard about it
[6:27] <tntexplosivesltd> i am familiar with it
[6:27] <DaQatz> !g raspberrypi
[6:27] <PiBot> DaQatz: http://www.raspberrypi.org/ - "Raspberry Pi | An ARM GNU/Linux box for $25. Take a byte!"
[6:29] <Datum_Errata> I'm a network engineer. I can route your packets, but I'll fumble when talking about video specifics.
[6:29] <Datum_Errata> For $25 you can afford to be a tard about what you're buying
[6:30] <tntexplosivesltd> lol I am in packet radio
[6:31] <Datum_Errata> sweet. I've been wanting to play with that stuff
[6:31] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: interesting that you think I am a tard. you came in here and argued about twitter for 2 hours
[6:31] <DaQatz> !g candied habaneros and jalapenos
[6:31] <PiBot> DaQatz: http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/18572-candied-jalapenos-habaneros/ - "Candied Jalapenos &amp; Habaneros - The Hot Pepper"
[6:32] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[6:32] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: I KNOW you are a tard
[6:32] <tntexplosivesltd> oh okay
[6:32] <Datum_Errata> I'd like to play with a Ettus Gnu Radio. I can't justify the cost right now, though
[6:32] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[6:32] <mchou> your cluelessness tells me all I need to know
[6:33] <tntexplosivesltd> oh cool
[6:34] <Datum_Errata> I've still got this reprap to work on, anyway
[6:34] <tntexplosivesltd> aww I want one of those
[6:35] <Datum_Errata> I love the concept. I'll be happy when I'm printing. I'm almost done. I just have to mount the bed and put the electonics on
[6:35] <tntexplosivesltd> mean
[6:35] <tntexplosivesltd> how much was it all up?
[6:36] <Datum_Errata> around $650 USD
[6:36] <tntexplosivesltd> not bad
[6:36] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: are you from america?
[6:36] <Datum_Errata> yeah, that's the cheapest I've seen. A few things weren't right, though. If I paid for a better kit it would have cost more. there's give and take
[6:38] <Datum_Errata> I got the hardware kit here: http://www.mixshop.ca/store/ I got the plastic parts somewhere else.
[6:39] <Datum_Errata> I'm curious if the Pi will replace the Arduino for some things. I saw some kind of add-on for the Pi
[6:39] <Tobias|> Depends on the cost of the gertboard in my opinion
[6:39] <tntexplosivesltd> or you can make your own
[6:40] <tntexplosivesltd> but mainly yes it will depends on that
[6:40] <Tobias|> If it's too expensive, I'd just get a beaglebone
[6:40] <tntexplosivesltd> not many will have the know-how (or time) to make their own XD
[6:40] <Datum_Errata> yeah, the gertboard. That's what I was thinking of.
[6:41] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, I don't think it will entirely replace the arduino (although I wish it would)
[6:42] <Tobias|> I doubt it will
[6:42] * jmontleon (~jason@c-76-19-35-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:42] <Tobias|> Both are way different styles of development
[6:42] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah
[6:42] <tntexplosivesltd> the r-pi will be more low-level
[6:42] <tntexplosivesltd> yay
[6:43] <tntexplosivesltd> =)
[6:44] <Datum_Errata> I've never played with a gertboard - or really much in hardware like that. It's fun to dig into new stuff
[6:45] <Datum_Errata> cheap, powerful, flexible stuff. I'm glad it's finally the future.
[6:45] <Datum_Errata> I can't wait until the future's future
[6:45] <tntexplosivesltd> yuuup
[6:45] <tntexplosivesltd> flying cars
[6:45] <Tobias|> I don't think anybdoy here has played with a gertboard, Datum_Errata
[6:46] <tntexplosivesltd> I would rather not >.>
[6:46] <Tobias|> anybody*
[6:46] <tntexplosivesltd> the interesting part will be the GPIO drivers
[6:49] <Datum_Errata> I've never made a cluster, either. Pi will be a good excuse to try
[6:49] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[6:49] <Datum_Errata> Also, cloud stuff - Chef, Salt, etc
[6:49] <tntexplosivesltd> been trying to find some good distributed processing software
[6:49] <tntexplosivesltd> chef? salt?
[6:50] <Tobias|> tntexplosivesltd, virtualbox + several VMs <_<
[6:50] <tntexplosivesltd> ...
[6:50] <tntexplosivesltd> I mean parallel too
[6:50] <Datum_Errata> it's not just for VMs
[6:50] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[6:51] <Datum_Errata> Salt was made basically for people that have to run lots of tasks on lots of computers. People usually write their own scripts for that jazz. Salt makes it easier
[6:51] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm
[6:52] * izua (~izua@188.26.167.135) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:52] * izua (~izua@188.26.167.135) Quit (Changing host)
[6:52] * izua (~izua@unaffiliated/izua) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:52] <Datum_Errata> http://saltstack.org/
[6:52] <tntexplosivesltd> I pretty much want some software that lets me run one process across multiple computers XD
[6:52] <Datum_Errata> yeah, check it
[6:52] <tntexplosivesltd> but it's pretty darn difficult
[6:53] <Datum_Errata> oh, more like a cluster?
[6:53] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah lol
[6:53] <Datum_Errata> like the SETI project and human genome project?
[6:54] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah, but much smaller XD
[6:54] * Soul_Est (~nolanhayn@CPE0017f2324fce-CM0012250096a8.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[6:54] <tntexplosivesltd> can't find any damn software for it
[6:54] <tntexplosivesltd> the only solutions we've found are writing our own
[6:56] <Datum_Errata> I could see that being a problem. I have tried it, but I can imagine it might be similar to working on several cores. I guess it's all where and how you balance the load
[6:58] <tntexplosivesltd> heh yeah
[6:58] <tntexplosivesltd> might mave to give up
[6:59] <Datum_Errata> looks like Seti@home uses Bionic. It's open source
[7:00] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm
[7:00] <SpeedEvil> There is no 'run one process across multiple computers' generic solution that exists.
[7:01] <tntexplosivesltd> no, didn't think so
[7:01] <SpeedEvil> You pretty much have to understand your problem, and work out which of the many sorts of segmentation - if any - suit.
[7:01] <SpeedEvil> In some cases, the answer is basically, that you can't.
[7:01] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah
[7:01] <tntexplosivesltd> opel
[7:01] <tntexplosivesltd> * owel
[7:01] <SpeedEvil> In others, it's nearly trivial.
[7:02] <SpeedEvil> For example, searching for cryptographic matches, you can simply divide up the keyspace between n CPUs with perfect performance gain, and no fidelity issues.
[7:02] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm
[7:02] <SpeedEvil> And need nearly no bandwidth betwen them.
[7:03] <SpeedEvil> For computational fluid dynamics where there are in addition to 'adjacent cell' - long range forces, it can get very messy indeed.
[7:03] <SpeedEvil> As you need huge amounts of fast bandwidth between nodes.
[7:03] <tntexplosivesltd> short answer: use AI
[7:03] <tntexplosivesltd> got it
[7:03] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[7:03] <SpeedEvil> Use someone with a clue.
[7:04] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[7:04] <tntexplosivesltd> damn
[7:04] <tntexplosivesltd> don't have one of those
[7:04] <Datum_Errata> heheh
[7:04] <SpeedEvil> What specific problem?
[7:04] * Da|Mummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:04] <tntexplosivesltd> SpeedEvil: nothing specific
[7:05] <Da|Mummy> ok, who took the site down?
[7:05] <tntexplosivesltd> that was the idea
[7:05] <tntexplosivesltd> Da|Mummy: the host are having problems
[7:05] <Da|Mummy> because orders started, and its facing the slickdeals, woot BOC effect?
[7:05] <SpeedEvil> No
[7:05] <Datum_Errata> neh
[7:05] <tntexplosivesltd> ......
[7:06] <tntexplosivesltd> before the orders start, there will be a lot of publicity about it
[7:06] <SpeedEvil> I setup a script, and have secured 9990 of the first batch. To hit ebay tomorrow.
[7:06] <Datum_Errata> Just enough people wanted to make raspberry pie, but found that site instead
[7:06] <tntexplosivesltd> they will send a message to the mailing list and everything
[7:06] <SpeedEvil> tntexplosivesltd: In addition - #physics-software or something
[7:06] <Da|Mummy> how many on mailing list as of now?
[7:07] <tntexplosivesltd> quite a lot
[7:07] <Da|Mummy> 7?
[7:07] <tntexplosivesltd> x 2000
[7:07] <Da|Mummy> thats not "quite a lot" by internet standards, but enough to make sure i dont get one from first batch... :{
[7:08] <tntexplosivesltd> well raspberry pi on twitter has 16,000 followers
[7:08] <tntexplosivesltd> so lots of people are interested -(
[7:08] <tntexplosivesltd> * =(
[7:08] <Da|Mummy> i thought twatter was for the iphone crowd?
[7:08] <tntexplosivesltd> nah, not really specific to anyone
[7:09] <Datum_Errata> also, several people want to buy a lot of them. I'd like to buy at least 5, myself
[7:09] <Dagger2> the BBC reported over 50,000 users on the mailing list, and that was three weeks ago
[7:09] <Da|Mummy> please only buy one from first batch
[7:09] <tntexplosivesltd> it lets us know what's going on without coming on here and asking what has already been asked a million times
[7:09] <Datum_Errata> If schools are awesome they'll want to buy a bundle
[7:09] <tntexplosivesltd> Da|Mummy: that's what they're enforcing yes
[7:10] <Da|Mummy> enforcing to one address isnt really enforcing
[7:10] <tntexplosivesltd> it's more than nothing
[7:10] <Da|Mummy> true
[7:10] <Ben64> theres no way to enforce it 100%
[7:10] <tntexplosivesltd> I would personally do per credit card
[7:10] <tntexplosivesltd> but meh
[7:10] <Ben64> i have multiple credit cards
[7:10] <Da|Mummy> because nobody owns more than one CC?
[7:10] <Datum_Errata> credit card is easier to fake, I think
[7:10] <tntexplosivesltd> well exactly
[7:10] <tntexplosivesltd> erm...
[7:10] <tntexplosivesltd> not to fake
[7:10] <Da|Mummy> and digital CCs are easy to get to use for one day
[7:11] <tntexplosivesltd> to have more than 1 of maybe
[7:11] <Datum_Errata> I can get a bunch of prepaid CC's at a store
[7:11] <tntexplosivesltd> Da|Mummy: hmm, never heard of that
[7:11] <Da|Mummy> ya, they have those
[7:11] <tntexplosivesltd> must be an american thing
[7:11] <Da|Mummy> for people that dont trust the interwebs stores
[7:11] <Da|Mummy> arent CC an american thing? why else is everyone poor?
[7:11] <Ben64> they're gift cards
[7:12] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[7:12] <tntexplosivesltd> we have eftpos here
[7:12] <tntexplosivesltd> it's good
[7:12] <Da|Mummy> no, they really have "virtual credit cards"
[7:12] <tntexplosivesltd> that's interesting
[7:12] <Ben64> i know, i was referring to the prepaid CC at stores
[7:12] <Tobias|> https://www.entropay.com/
[7:12] <Tobias|> ^ example virtual credit card
[7:13] <Da|Mummy> so how well do android/iOS/WebOS xmbc remotes work RPi XMBC?
[7:13] <tntexplosivesltd> no-one has tried
[7:13] <Datum_Errata> So, you buy a virtual credit card so that your wife doesn't see when you subscribe to gay porn sites? I don't really get virtual cards. You have to give them money some how
[7:13] <tntexplosivesltd> I would imagine they work if the software supports
[7:14] <Da|Mummy> Datum_Errata, it helps when you want to purchase something online from a questionalble "store" and want to make sure they dont steal your CC info, but your money is still save the same way CC are
[7:14] <Datum_Errata> I get the prepaid cards. You give them cash at the store so you can use it for online purchases.
[7:15] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[7:15] <Da|Mummy> i dont get gift cards, whats wrong with just using the money you have instead of buying a card first so you can use the card you paid for
[7:15] <tntexplosivesltd> cash = secure
[7:16] <Datum_Errata> eh, I'll never get bitcoin, either
[7:16] <Da|Mummy> not online...
[7:16] <tntexplosivesltd> no
[7:16] <tntexplosivesltd> Da|Mummy: buying online cards = giving someone else your cc detaild
[7:16] <tntexplosivesltd> * details
[7:17] <Da|Mummy> which is kind of what virtual CC eliminates
[7:17] <tntexplosivesltd> no
[7:17] <tntexplosivesltd> you still give them your details
[7:17] <Tobias|> To one party only
[7:17] <tntexplosivesltd> getting a gift card means you give no-one your details
[7:17] <tntexplosivesltd> that's why it's somewhat better
[7:18] <Da|Mummy> but how many random untrusthworth online stores accept gift cards?
[7:18] <Datum_Errata> exactly my point. I like the Visa gift card. I don't get the virtual card
[7:18] <tntexplosivesltd> they act as credit cards
[7:18] <tntexplosivesltd> they work in exactly the same way
[7:18] <tntexplosivesltd> they are just prepaid
[7:18] <tntexplosivesltd> and when it's used, that's it
[7:18] <tntexplosivesltd> you need to get another one
[7:19] <tntexplosivesltd> (also they're completely anonymous, but keep that quiet)
[7:19] <tntexplosivesltd> if paid for my cash that it
[7:19] <tntexplosivesltd> * by
[7:19] <tntexplosivesltd> * is
[7:21] <Da|Mummy> right, so no other RPi news other than site beign down?
[7:21] <Datum_Errata> check twitter
[7:22] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[7:22] <tntexplosivesltd> that
[7:22] <Datum_Errata> ;)
[7:22] <tntexplosivesltd> if you want to stay in the know
[7:22] <tntexplosivesltd> and possibly get one when they come out...
[7:23] <Da|Mummy> irc isnt the place for latest/best info?
[7:23] <Datum_Errata> Do we know how many the ordered to be made?
[7:23] <Datum_Errata> lol
[7:23] <tntexplosivesltd> only 10,000
[7:24] <tntexplosivesltd> Da|Mummy: if you're on here 24/7, yeah
[7:24] <Datum_Errata> ack!
[7:24] <Datum_Errata> That's going to sell out in an hour
[7:24] <tntexplosivesltd> Datum_Errata: that's all they had the money for
[7:25] <Da|Mummy> when is batch 2 planned, taking in mind that the first 10k would sell first week
[7:25] <Da|Mummy> which i wouldnt be surprised at that price
[7:26] <tntexplosivesltd> not sure, as soon as they have enough money
[7:26] <tntexplosivesltd> from the first sales
[7:26] <Datum_Errata> sell out of stuff, ship all the stuff, order more stuff
[7:26] <Datum_Errata> it's a good plan
[7:26] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah, it's all they can dop
[7:26] <tntexplosivesltd> * do
[7:26] <tntexplosivesltd> =(
[7:26] <tntexplosivesltd> I wish less people knew about it
[7:27] <tntexplosivesltd> like, exactly 10,000 people
[7:27] <tntexplosivesltd> that would be sweet
[7:27] <Datum_Errata> yeah, don't tell your friends
[7:27] <tntexplosivesltd> too late -(
[7:27] <tntexplosivesltd> * =(
[7:27] <Datum_Errata> oh no!
[7:27] <tntexplosivesltd> they found out at the same time
[7:27] <tntexplosivesltd> ages back
[7:27] <Datum_Errata> stupid slashdot
[7:27] <Da|Mummy> im sure servers will crash like no tomorrow, hopefully they prepare
[7:28] <Da|Mummy> and have an automated system to take orders
[7:28] <tntexplosivesltd> they have the store hosted elsewhere
[7:28] <Da|Mummy> thats not gonna matter
[7:28] <tntexplosivesltd> it still works
[7:28] <tntexplosivesltd> it will yes
[7:28] <tntexplosivesltd> why would it not matter?
[7:28] <Da|Mummy> ive seen ebay shut down when HP touchpads went back on sale.....
[7:29] <Datum_Errata> I wonder how much it costs to make. I'm betting $250,000 will buy a lot. Hold on to $100,000 for sexy time
[7:29] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm, that's a good point
[7:29] <Da|Mummy> ebay.com, .uk. .ca.....
[7:29] <tntexplosivesltd> maybe they went down on purpose
[7:29] * tntexplosivesltd shrugs
[7:30] <tntexplosivesltd> eww HP webOS
[7:30] <tntexplosivesltd> (off topic)
[7:32] <Da|Mummy> have you tried webos?
[7:32] <tntexplosivesltd> nope
[7:32] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:32] <tntexplosivesltd> don't want to
[7:33] <Da|Mummy> dont judge till you try, while it lacks the apps ios and android have, the OS is vastly superior
[7:33] <The_Ball> What's up with the website? (has this been asked a thousand times already?)
[7:33] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[7:33] <tntexplosivesltd> yes it has
[7:33] <tntexplosivesltd> use twitter
[7:34] <tntexplosivesltd> Da|Mummy: the fact it has "web" in it, and it's an OS, makes me doubtful
[7:35] <Da|Mummy> theres nothing cloud about it
[7:35] * jardiamj (~jardiamj@rdbk.p1-144.molalla.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[7:35] <tntexplosivesltd> no, not what I mean
[7:37] <Datum_Errata> heh, looks like the .org has been parked
[7:37] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[7:37] <Datum_Errata> that's what my traceroute says anyway
[7:39] <tntexplosivesltd> probably to take the load off while they fix it
[7:41] <Datum_Errata> or the pi people put too much money into raspberries and not enough into hosting ;)
[7:41] <tntexplosivesltd> they were donated a host
[7:43] <Datum_Errata> btw, what is it with tech companies using way too common names now? Raspberry Pi isn't bad because of the missing 'e', but there's Chef, Puppet, Salt, Blackberry, Blueberry, what else? There's been a bunch lately
[7:43] <Datum_Errata> it makes googling hard
[7:43] <Da|Mummy> its funny how much free stuff comes your way when you label yourself a foundation
[7:44] <Da|Mummy> what would you use? everything is taken and copyrighted
[7:44] <Datum_Errata> Errata Foundation...I like that
[7:44] * imnichol (~ian@8.24.97.104) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[7:44] <tntexplosivesltd> entropy
[7:44] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[7:45] <SpeedEvil> Apple.
[7:45] <Datum_Errata> My favorite acyonym has always been TWAIN
[7:45] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[7:45] <SpeedEvil> Apricot
[7:45] <Da|Mummy> wait a min....between the 10k, how will they split between Ver A and Ver B?
[7:45] <Datum_Errata> Technology without an interesting name
[7:45] <SpeedEvil> Da|Mummy: all B
[7:45] <Da|Mummy> really?
[7:45] <tntexplosivesltd> Da|Mummy: mainly yeah
[7:45] <Datum_Errata> It's a 0/100 split
[7:45] <Da|Mummy> hmm, didnt know that
[7:46] <Da|Mummy> i was rather comtemplating which one to get, i guess that takes that guess work out
[7:46] <Datum_Errata> It probably costs similar to make and it would cost more to have two models. First deployment and all
[7:47] <tntexplosivesltd> and the model b looks better XD
[7:47] <Datum_Errata> no doubt
[7:47] <Da|Mummy> ya i know manufacturers will only take large quantity minimum orders
[7:48] <Da|Mummy> so release is planned this month?
[7:48] <tntexplosivesltd> check twitter
[7:48] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[7:49] <Datum_Errata> It's as soon as the Chinese make em and ship em
[7:49] <tntexplosivesltd> they'll be released when they get made
[7:49] <tntexplosivesltd> ninja'd
[7:49] <Da|Mummy> tntexplosivesltd, sad to say it, but im not even sure i know how to use twitter
[7:49] <Datum_Errata> It should be within a week or three
[7:49] <tntexplosivesltd> eh
[7:49] <tntexplosivesltd> or maybe a few months
[7:49] <tntexplosivesltd> we'll see
[7:49] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[7:50] <Datum_Errata> just point your webulator to twitter.com
[7:50] <Da|Mummy> under qemu?
[7:50] <Datum_Errata> no, over
[7:50] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[7:51] <Da|Mummy> is the dsp enabled in kernal?
[7:51] <tntexplosivesltd> dps?
[7:51] <tntexplosivesltd> * dsp?
[7:51] <Da|Mummy> dsp
[7:52] <tntexplosivesltd> why is everyone talking about a DSP?
[7:52] <Da|Mummy> makes big difference
[7:52] <tntexplosivesltd> why is everyone talking about a DSP?
[7:52] <Da|Mummy> makes big difference in media playablility
[7:52] <tntexplosivesltd> what are you talking about when you mean DSP?
[7:52] <tntexplosivesltd> the GPU?
[7:53] <Da|Mummy> makes big difference in power consumption
[7:53] <tntexplosivesltd> what are you talking about when you mean DSP? The GPU?
[7:53] <Da|Mummy> the dsp!
[7:53] <tntexplosivesltd> there isn't one
[7:53] <tntexplosivesltd> there's a GPU
[7:53] <Da|Mummy> the thing between the cpu, the gpu, and the dsram
[7:53] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[7:53] <Da|Mummy> sdram
[7:54] <tntexplosivesltd> this was talked about on the forum
[7:54] * uen (~uen@p5DCB178E.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[7:54] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't think you uderstand what a DSP is
[7:54] <tntexplosivesltd> a digital signal processor?
[7:54] * pnunn (~pnunn@58.108.220.221) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:55] <tntexplosivesltd> that takes analogue signals and turns them into digital information?
[7:55] <tntexplosivesltd> on the forum they said there's a gpu
[7:55] <tntexplosivesltd> that's it
[7:56] <tntexplosivesltd> it's part of the GPu
[7:56] <tntexplosivesltd> * GPU
[7:56] <tntexplosivesltd> it can't be controlled directly
[7:56] <Da|Mummy> wiki says theres a DSP
[7:56] <Da|Mummy> :|
[7:57] <tntexplosivesltd> hang on
[7:57] <Datum_Errata> hmm, I thought a DSP was a general thing. I thought a GPU was a DSP. Shows what I know
[7:57] <tntexplosivesltd> https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NBc3rgRq4BcJ:www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/dsp-and-memory-allocation+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a
[7:57] <Da|Mummy> its all on the SOC
[7:57] <tntexplosivesltd> read that
[7:57] <tntexplosivesltd> "And it"s not really a DSP. It"s a multiple core GPU with extra hardware blocks for dedicated processing of image data and other stuff."
[7:57] <Datum_Errata> Broadcom BCM2835 (CPU + GPU + DSP + SDRAM) [3]
[7:57] <The_Ball> haha, "And I hate to disappoint, but no, this is not a sign that we have units ready (they're still in China)" I was sure that was what had happened
[7:58] <Da|Mummy> oh my its Pickle, good peoples that old cucumber
[8:00] <Da|Mummy> right, good old Pickle thought the same thing as me
[8:00] <Datum_Errata> Sometimes I talk to people online and feel dumb for not knowing more. Then I go to work and I feel super smart. Maybe I work with dumb people?
[8:01] <SpeedEvil> Oh for a decent datasheet and programming manual.
[8:01] <SpeedEvil> (and while we're dreaming of stuff, a way to order them.
[8:01] <Da|Mummy> you cant judge intelligence by a dolphin not knowing how to climb a tree
[8:02] <Datum_Errata> I'd like to pre-order it. Although it's probably more responsible of them to not do pre-orders
[8:02] * R` (~RHA@ip7.j-k.kund.riksnet.nu) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:02] <Da|Mummy> because they learned a lesson from another UK person...
[8:03] <Datum_Errata> Da|Mummy: but if a dolphin did know how to climb a tree you might think it's super smart
[8:03] * djazz (~djazz@static-212.214.85.166.addr.tdcsong.se) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:03] <Da|Mummy> sure, but i dont, and just because i dont know any dolhins, doesnt make me dumb
[8:04] <Datum_Errata> well, it doesn't help
[8:04] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:07] * uen (~uen@p5DCB198D.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:12] * zma (~zmac@c2s31-2-83-152-88-41.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:13] * zma (~zmac@c2s31-2-83-152-88-41.fbx.proxad.net) has left #raspberrypi
[8:15] * pistacik__ (~root@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[8:16] * pistacik__ (~root@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:25] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[8:26] <tntexplosivesltd> suddenly zoology
[8:27] * pistacik1_ (~root@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:29] * pistacik__ (~root@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[8:34] <RaTTuS|BIG> has the website died
[8:36] <tntexplosivesltd> yeeees
[8:36] <tntexplosivesltd> 's on twitter
[8:38] * izua (~izua@unaffiliated/izua) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[8:39] <RaTTuS|BIG> kk just seen
[8:40] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[8:40] <RaTTuS|BIG> I see they are still in china also :(
[8:40] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah =(
[8:41] <Ben64> does audio come out via hdmi?
[8:41] <RaTTuS|BIG> yes
[8:41] <tntexplosivesltd> yeaha
[8:41] <Ben64> oh, really? i kept seeing things about the 3.5mm jack
[8:41] <tntexplosivesltd> there's a vid from ages ago on the site... owait
[8:42] <tntexplosivesltd> yea it does both
[8:42] <Ben64> awesome
[8:42] <Ben64> i was worried about audio on my tv, it doesn't have any audio for hdmi
[8:42] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v6FOji3lq8
[8:44] <tntexplosivesltd> RaTTuS|BIG: I meant the one of the trailer
[8:44] <tntexplosivesltd> but the cows will do
[8:44] <RaTTuS|BIG> yeah
[8:52] * paul- (u4804@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lyfvllkguslhxbqy) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[8:59] * gabriel9 (~quassel@92.241.143.37) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:01] <tntexplosivesltd> then it was dead
[9:01] <tntexplosivesltd> the silly people must be asleep
[9:01] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:10] * diplo (~diplo@cpc1-trow1-0-0-cust13.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:15] <RaTTuS|BIG> https://twitter.com/#!/Raspberry_Pi
[9:16] <Davespice> hey guys. good morning o/
[9:16] <tntexplosivesltd> hey
[9:16] <Davespice> just seen the main Raspberry Pi site is down for maintenance...
[9:16] * Davespice holds his breath
[9:16] <Davespice> :)
[9:16] <RaTTuS|BIG> no
[9:16] <RaTTuS|BIG> Raspberry_Pi Raspberry Pi
[9:16] <RaTTuS|BIG> And I hate to disappoint, but no, this is not a sign that we have units ready (they're still in China)
[9:17] <RaTTuS|BIG> 5 hr ago
[9:17] <Davespice> it's cool... I just thought, for a moment, I would spread some panic =)
[9:17] <tntexplosivesltd> you wouldn't be the first
[9:17] <RaTTuS|BIG> shop sit eis up but not the forums
[9:17] <tntexplosivesltd> probably the millionth -/
[9:17] <tntexplosivesltd> * =/
[9:17] <RaTTuS|BIG> ^ scuse the speeling
[9:18] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[9:18] <Davespice> it looks like we're in for some terrible weather here, so I doubt they'll get any aircraft through for a while
[9:18] * cosh (~cosh@gateway/tor-sasl/ryld) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:18] <Davespice> tnt, I'm doing in a jovial way though... which makes it okay :)
[9:18] <tntexplosivesltd> true
[9:19] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[9:19] <smw> oh wow...
[9:20] <Davespice> I wonder how many people will come in here and say the same thing that I just did :)
[9:20] <smw> raspberrypi.org is down for maintenance and the RP is going to be shipped "in February"
[9:20] <Davespice> hAAAHAHAHA :)
[9:20] <smw> And it is Feb 1 :-D
[9:20] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice: millions
[9:20] <Davespice> brilliant ;)
[9:20] <Davespice> smw just proved the point for me
[9:20] <smw> Davespice, :-D
[9:21] <smw> Davespice, just noticed. I was already here :-P
[9:21] <Davespice> no worries, I expect this is going to be the topic of the morning
[9:21] <smw> Davespice, yep
[9:21] <Davespice> we need an IRC "don't bat"
[9:21] <smw> don't bat?
[9:22] <Davespice> yeah, it's a bat you hit someone with to tell them "don't do that!"
[9:22] <tntexplosivesltd> ah
[9:22] <tntexplosivesltd> someone add "the site is down" to pibox
[9:22] <tntexplosivesltd> * pibot
[9:22] <Davespice> good idea
[9:22] <tntexplosivesltd> is it out yet?
[9:22] * PiBot slaps tntexplosivesltd across the face with a cast iron pan.
[9:23] <tntexplosivesltd> like that
[9:23] <Mowee> Morning
[9:23] <smw> is it out yet?
[9:23] * PiBot slaps smw across the face with a cast iron pan.
[9:23] <Davespice> yeah, that'll do
[9:23] <tntexplosivesltd> or "is the site down"
[9:23] <smw> I really want to know
[9:23] <smw> is it out yet?
[9:23] * PiBot slaps smw across the face with a cast iron pan.
[9:23] <smw> is it out yet?
[9:23] * PiBot slaps smw across the face with a cast iron pan.
[9:23] <smw> hm...
[9:23] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[9:23] <smw> PiBot, needs new phrases :-P
[9:23] <Ben64> is it out yet?
[9:23] * PiBot slaps Ben64 across the face with a cast iron pan.
[9:23] <Davespice> okay chaps, I need to jump in the shower, back in a bit
[9:23] <tntexplosivesltd> cool....?
[9:24] <Ben64> ????
[9:24] <smw> now PiBot needs kick powers
[9:26] <smw> Davespice, "And I hate to disappoint, but no, this is not a sign that we have units ready (they're still in China)"
[9:26] <smw> :-(
[9:26] <Ben64> so.. at least a week
[9:27] <smw> "We think it's merely that the server was overloaded earlier and went down while the guys at our host were asleep, so hasn't been brought up."
[9:27] <smw> it seems the "scheduled maintenance was not so scheduled"
[9:28] <smw> or it is a ruse!
[9:28] <tntexplosivesltd> nope
[9:28] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't see them doing any secret release
[9:29] <tntexplosivesltd> they would never hear the end of it
[9:29] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, yeah. I expect they are the type of people who would post pictures of them in the boxes from the factory
[9:29] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[9:29] <Ben64> prediction made
[9:29] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, am I wrong?
[9:29] <Ben64> now we wait
[9:30] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: nope
[9:30] * djazz (~djazz@static-212.214.85.166.addr.tdcsong.se) has left #raspberrypi
[9:31] <smw> Ben64, yep. I expect credit for this prediction when it comes true :-P
[9:31] <smw> on the off chance it doesn't... forget I said anything
[9:31] <Ben64> i'll be looking for you
[9:31] <tntexplosivesltd> it's almost a given though
[9:31] <tntexplosivesltd> it's hardly a prediction...
[9:31] <smw> lol
[9:31] <smw> yeah, pretty safe bet
[9:32] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, next question. Do you think they will sell out quickly?
[9:32] <tntexplosivesltd> definitely
[9:33] <Henchman21> not before i order mine
[9:33] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, and I mean that as sell all the units, not the other meaning ;-)
[9:33] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[9:33] <Ben64> maybe people won't buy them because they "raised the price" to $35
[9:33] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[9:33] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, although right now, what I really want are dev tools for the broadcom videocore iv :-)
[9:34] <Henchman21> they did? or you mean the first run is "B" boards
[9:34] <smw> Ben64, yeah. And EVERYTHING is extra
[9:34] <tntexplosivesltd> Ben64: that's kinda inaccurate
[9:34] <smw> Ben64, that is what ticks me off more
[9:34] <Henchman21> which cost ~35$
[9:34] <Ben64> Henchman21: they're all B
[9:34] <smw> want an SD card (required)? Power supply?
[9:34] <tntexplosivesltd> I was always gonna get a B
[9:34] <Henchman21> fine by me i was planning on getting a b
[9:34] <Ben64> but every site says its a $25 computer
[9:34] <Ben64> so people are gonna be like !?!
[9:34] <tntexplosivesltd> every site is stupid
[9:34] <Henchman21> double ram is nice but the shared bus makes me a sad panda
[9:35] <Ben64> shared bus?
[9:35] <smw> how much is it after you buy the required supplies?
[9:35] <smw> and still no case
[9:35] <Henchman21> yeah the ethernet bus is shared with usb
[9:35] <smw> Henchman21, yikes
[9:35] <Henchman21> last i checked
[9:35] <Ben64> sd card ~15, power supply ~2
[9:35] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: that's always ben the case
[9:35] <smw> $15?!
[9:36] <Ben64> for a good sized one yeah sure
[9:36] <Henchman21> so the i have a few dozen usb power supplies
[9:36] <tntexplosivesltd> and a good class
[9:36] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, I used to think it came with everything except keyboard, mouse, and monitor
[9:36] <tntexplosivesltd> class 4 or 6
[9:36] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[9:36] <tntexplosivesltd> noooope
[9:37] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, in other words, I thought someone with a computer would not need to buy anything else.
[9:37] <tntexplosivesltd> well...
[9:37] <tntexplosivesltd> I already have an SD card for a camera
[9:37] <tntexplosivesltd> and a PSU for my phone
[9:37] <tntexplosivesltd> so I'm set
[9:38] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: and I meant that the shared bus was always the case
[9:38] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, ah, just never heard about it
[9:38] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[9:38] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, not important
[9:38] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[9:38] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, it is a $35 computer. They can take shortcuts
[9:38] <tntexplosivesltd> loool
[9:39] <tntexplosivesltd> well, not shortcuts
[9:39] <tntexplosivesltd> it's all they had to work with yes
[9:39] <smw> but the locked up GPU is not ok!
[9:39] <tntexplosivesltd> try telling that to broadcom
[9:39] <smw> not even dev tools?
[9:39] <tntexplosivesltd> they got a very good deal, that was a condition of the contract
[9:39] <slaeshjag> smw: Try finding a ARM device with a Open GPU
[9:40] <Davespice> I don't think the GPU being non open source is going to prevent it from achieving it's goals
[9:40] <tntexplosivesltd> shouldn't need to dev for the GPU
[9:40] <smw> slaeshjag, I understand it is difficult. I am not saying I can do better
[9:40] <smw> still ticks me off
[9:40] <tntexplosivesltd> what would you dev for it?
[9:40] <Davespice> hmmm, thats a point...
[9:40] <Davespice> I am not sure if we're going to get accelerated X drivers
[9:40] <smw> Davespice, I think it is
[9:40] <tntexplosivesltd> it supports OpenGl ES and all that
[9:41] <slaeshjag> Davespice: The drvers are accelerated and we get the GL|ES-libs
[9:41] <smw> Davespice, allowing GPU programming would mean people could make more codecs for it
[9:41] <smw> I want xvid and divx!
[9:41] <tntexplosivesltd> codecs schmodecs
[9:41] <Davespice> oh I see, so we're only getting mpeg4 and h.264 or something?
[9:41] <tntexplosivesltd> it's not really media-centre oriented
[9:41] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, Is it so wrong to want a $35 htpc?
[9:41] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, I know, but it would be nice :-P
[9:42] <slaeshjag> Davespice: R-pi only licenses those two, yes
[9:42] <tntexplosivesltd> it's wrong that you want a $35 HTPC that does all codecs under the sun yes
[9:42] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[9:42] <Davespice> but the goal is to create a new generation of programmers, and I don't think we need to have video codecs galore to achieve that?
[9:42] <slaeshjag> Davespice: Other codecs can still be used, they just won't be hardware accelerated
[9:42] <Davespice> ah right I see, thanks slaeshjag
[9:42] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, why?
[9:43] <tntexplosivesltd> because it's a $35 computer
[9:43] <tntexplosivesltd> =D
[9:43] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, I don't ask that they program it or include it. Just that they don't prevent it :-P
[9:43] <Davespice> it's for teaching programming, tinkering with, building robots, hacking etc
[9:43] <tntexplosivesltd> but it's broadcom
[9:43] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, as far as I am concerned, that is locking down the hardware
[9:43] <tntexplosivesltd> the foundation can't help it
[9:43] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, I understand, I don't have anger at RP
[9:43] <Henchman21> yeah i hate broadcom
[9:43] <rm> it's getting old that people throw the price around as the justifier of any possible evil
[9:43] <smw> +1 rm
[9:43] <mchou> no, it'd be much better if broadcom or whoever gave us the option to get a license pak
[9:43] <Davespice> yeah, I agree with rm there
[9:44] <Henchman21> stallman would not be pleased
[9:44] <rm> can't you agree YES IT'S BAD IT'S NOT OPEN
[9:44] <tntexplosivesltd> broadcom are locking it down because theu are giving the foundation a VERY good deal
[9:44] <Davespice> the price is amazing given whatever circumstances come
[9:44] <tntexplosivesltd> Henchman21: stallman sucks
[9:44] <rm> instead of repeating like a parrot $35 $35 $35
[9:44] <tntexplosivesltd> he's a deluded idealist
[9:44] <Henchman21> nah broadcom locks everything in proprietary blobs
[9:44] <smw> +1 tntexplosivesltd :-)
[9:44] <mchou> rm: most codecs aren't open
[9:44] <tntexplosivesltd> Henchman21: true
[9:44] <rm> Allwinner A10 somehow manages to provide GPL source for their drivers
[9:44] <rm> at $7 per chip
[9:44] <mchou> rm: patent encumbered
[9:45] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, the price does not make locking the hardware any more wrong :-P
[9:45] <rm> how? maybe they're not broadcom.
[9:45] <Henchman21> for all we know theres a secret backdoor in there relaying everything back to broadcom via satelite or somethin
[9:45] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, can it even play dvds with hardware acceleration?
[9:45] <smw> lol
[9:45] <rm> mchou, patents are a different issue
[9:45] <rm> some countries do not recognize sw patents
[9:45] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: what's the point of innovating if someone's just gonna steal it and make money off the millions you spent on R&D?
[9:45] <Ben64> <smw> I want xvid and divx!
[9:45] <rm> if you have even a 'patent-encumbered' source, you can use it in those countries
[9:45] <Ben64> both of those should be supported under mpeg4
[9:45] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, I am willing to forgive the same bus thing because of the price tag :-P
[9:46] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[9:46] <smw> Ben64, eh?
[9:46] <slaeshjag> if you don't like closed source blobs, go get a stallmanBook :P
[9:46] <Henchman21> talking bad about rms is a fast way to get /ignored
[9:46] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[9:46] <Ben64> smw: xvid and divx are both mpeg4
[9:46] <mchou> rm: umm, it's not sw in this case. mpeg-la is going to want a license fee
[9:46] * smw starts chanting "Stallman is Stalin. Stallman is Stalin."
[9:46] <rm> mchou, I believe the topic was the lack of programming documentation for the GPU
[9:47] <Henchman21> bill gates is hitler
[9:47] <smw> mchou, there are no dev tools or anything for the GPU
[9:47] <tntexplosivesltd> and likes men
[9:47] <Ben64> bill gates isn't bad
[9:47] <Ben64> steve jobs was worse
[9:47] <smw> mchou, you can't accelerate your own programs.
[9:47] <tntexplosivesltd> yes
[9:47] <Henchman21> nah he just wants you to take your vaccines
[9:47] <mchou> rm: no amount of documentation is going to provide that decode path
[9:47] <smw> mchou, only use what they give you
[9:47] <smw> mchou, what?
[9:47] <mchou> rm: you need a license. PERIOD
[9:48] <tntexplosivesltd> it's fine, someone will reverse engineer it
[9:48] <tntexplosivesltd> just you wait
[9:48] <Henchman21> http://www.naturalnews.com/029911_vaccines_Bill_Gates.html
[9:48] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[9:48] <mchou> lol
[9:48] <smw> Ben64, how is xvid and divx mpeg4?
[9:48] <tntexplosivesltd> Henchman21: what's bad about that?
[9:48] <mchou> reverse engineer my ass
[9:48] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't want to touch your donkey
[9:48] <rm> mchou, there is not a 'decode path'
[9:48] <smw> Ben64, if you told me that somehow mpeg4 included mpeg2, I might believe you, but xvid and divx, no way
[9:48] <mchou> go fab anothe SoC would be your answer?
[9:48] <rm> VideoCore is just a very fast specialized number cruncher
[9:48] <Ben64> smw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DivX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XviD
[9:49] <rm> it can be programmed to do any codec
[9:49] <rm> e.g. people would have no problems adding WebM and Theora, if they had means to program it
[9:49] <mchou> rm: yes it can, but you need apprpriate licenses because those codecs are patent encumbered
[9:49] <rm> oh, here we go
[9:50] <smw> Ben64, interesting
[9:50] <slaeshjag> mchou: Not WebM and Theora
[9:50] <mchou> WebM and Theora are not patent encumbered as far as I know
[9:50] <rm> you just said they are?
[9:50] <SphericalCow> ^
[9:50] <smw> mchou, and yet, the videocore can not decode them
[9:50] <mchou> you responded before I finished typing
[9:50] <smw> mchou, and it will not be able to because no one with the dev tools has a reason to.
[9:50] <rm> mkay
[9:51] <mchou> smw: what???
[9:51] <rm> point is, having documentation on how to program VideoCore has nothing to do with patents on codecs
[9:51] <smw> mchou, don't press enter until you have finished typing :-P
[9:51] <tntexplosivesltd> I wonder if broadcom will release further binary blobs
[9:51] <rm> or lack of them
[9:51] <tntexplosivesltd> with more codecs
[9:51] <tntexplosivesltd> just sayin'
[9:51] <Ben64> h264 and mpeg4 is fine for me
[9:51] <mchou> rm: baloney
[9:52] <Ben64> covers just about everything i'd ever want to play on it
[9:52] <rm> mchou, do they withhold x86 ASM docs from you
[9:52] <RaTTuS|BIG> tntexplosivesltd I recon they will
[9:52] <smw> mchou, WebM is not supported by videocore because no one with the tools to program for it cares
[9:52] <mchou> rm: documentation has nothing to do with it
[9:52] <rm> just becasue you can write an H264 decoder
[9:52] <rm> in x86 ASM
[9:52] <smw> mchou, I am sure others who will get an RP would do it
[9:52] <Dagger2> you do realize you can just... buy these licenses? so even if you're going to care about them, it's possible to get them, and then you're back at the "but I can't write any code for the damn thing" problem
[9:52] <rm> same situation here :)
[9:53] * TonyHoyle (~TonyHoyle@82.144.254.130) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:53] <mchou> Dagger2: you as "end user" don't get the opportunity to buy those licenses
[9:53] <tntexplosivesltd> but it's possible to
[9:53] <smw> mchou, why the hell not?
[9:53] <Dagger2> then that's a separate problem
[9:54] <tntexplosivesltd> so there could be a community-driven development initiative
[9:54] <smw> mchou, and who knows what else I would want to program with it?
[9:54] <mchou> smw: cause that's not the way licensing works
[9:54] <Dagger2> you *still* have the "GPU isn't open" problem, which still needs to be solved, so needing licenses or not is still irrelevent
[9:54] <tntexplosivesltd> a few people buy a licence with community funding
[9:54] <smw> mchou, and it is not just codecs
[9:54] <tntexplosivesltd> then they develop other codec support
[9:54] <smw> mchou, and some codecs are free
[9:54] <smw> mchou, we are conflating two issues
[9:55] <tntexplosivesltd> so go back to the start
[9:55] <tntexplosivesltd> everyone
[9:55] <mchou> no SoC manufacturer is going to sell you a swiss army knife so you can enable individual blades later
[9:55] <smw> SoC?
[9:56] <tntexplosivesltd> system on a chip
[9:56] <tntexplosivesltd> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_on_a_chip
[9:56] <smw> mchou, what the hell? It is my hardware. I should be able to use it how I want.
[9:56] <tntexplosivesltd> that's not how it works ._.
[9:56] <mchou> no, it's not your hardware
[9:56] <smw> mchou, holding back info so they can sell razor blades is very wrong.
[9:56] <tntexplosivesltd> you buy a user licence
[9:56] <mchou> you didn't pay for the license
[9:56] <tntexplosivesltd> effectively
[9:57] <tntexplosivesltd> you are allowed to use the hardware
[9:57] <smw> mchou, wait, what?
[9:57] <tntexplosivesltd> but they own it
[9:57] <smw> mchou, what license?
[9:57] <mchou> license to whatever codecs
[9:57] <mchou> or whatever patent encumbered stuff
[9:57] <smw> mchou, that is a separate issue for two reasons
[9:57] <smw> 1. there are other codecs
[9:57] <smw> (not patented)
[9:57] <smw> 2. there are other uses for a number processor
[9:58] <mchou> smw: considering you don't know what an SoC is you're hardly in a position to argue
[9:58] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: stop for just a second and listen
[9:58] <smw> ah, system on a chip. I do know what that is :-P
[9:58] <mchou> smw: learn how the world works before arguing
[9:58] <smw> mchou, excuse me?
[9:58] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: learn how to be wrong sometimes
[9:58] <tntexplosivesltd> it's okay
[9:59] <tntexplosivesltd> it doesn't matter
[9:59] <tntexplosivesltd> we all do it sometimes
[9:59] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: why dont you go back to your brainless tweeting
[9:59] <smw> mchou, are you saying that they should not let people program the GPU because people might use something they don't have the rights to? (according to US law)
[9:59] <smw> mchou, in that case, how about we ban all non-sanctioned programming?
[9:59] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: this is more fun, seeing you panic and lash out =)
[10:00] <mchou> lol
[10:00] <mchou> panic
[10:00] <mchou> it's a thankless job trying to educate the mob
[10:00] <smw> mchou, and what exactly are you trying to educate us about?
[10:00] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: yes, it really is. you just won't listen...
[10:01] <mchou> smw: how licensing works
[10:01] <tntexplosivesltd> yet you can't even spell it...
[10:01] <tntexplosivesltd> learn to spell it before you try to teach it
[10:01] <Henchman21> http://i.imgur.com/RNoJ7.png
[10:01] <smw> mchou, um.. what does licensing have to do with my ability to program the GPU in the computer I buy?
[10:02] <tntexplosivesltd> I really have no idea where he's going
[10:02] <tntexplosivesltd> licences don't stop programming
[10:02] <tntexplosivesltd> or development
[10:02] <mchou> smw: the point is you're buying functionality
[10:02] <mchou> not a computer
[10:03] <tntexplosivesltd> the difference being?
[10:03] <smw> mchou, and that is what is seriously wrong. They are crippling the device they sell.
[10:03] <tntexplosivesltd> all vendors do that
[10:03] <mchou> nobody is preventing you from developing mpeg decoder in SW
[10:03] <smw> mchou, they are preventing me from using all the hardware.
[10:03] <mchou> you just don't get to access the souped up HW
[10:03] <smw> mchou, in other words, they crippled it
[10:04] <tntexplosivesltd> well you get access to using it for what it's sett up to do
[10:04] <tntexplosivesltd> * set up
[10:04] <mchou> you didn't pay for the functionality
[10:04] <mchou> so you get crippled HW. simple as that
[10:04] <slaeshjag> mchou: But having this very powerful peice of hardware just sitting there making faces at you is just retarded
[10:04] <smw> mchou, and you think this is right?
[10:04] <smw> mchou, right as in morally right
[10:05] <mchou> I'm just telling you that's how it works
[10:05] <SphericalCow> I think people here know how it works. They're disagreeing with how it works.
[10:05] <smw> mchou, I know how it works. That is why I am angry at it
[10:05] <slaeshjag> This is really putting me off buying a rpi :/
[10:05] <tntexplosivesltd> we know how it works man
[10:05] <mchou> all the standard bodies work this way
[10:05] <tntexplosivesltd> WE KNOW
[10:05] <Henchman21> thats the plan
[10:05] <tntexplosivesltd> we're arguing for/against it
[10:05] <mchou> if you don't like it go implement your own HW
[10:05] <Ben64> then don't buy it, more pi for me
[10:06] <Henchman21> step one underpants; step 3 profit
[10:06] <mchou> smw: I don't see why you get all worked up
[10:07] <Dagger2> mchou: implementing my own hardware isn't going to magically make broadcom's hardware open though
[10:07] <smw> mchou, because they intentionally cripple the goods they ship?
[10:07] <Dagger2> and it's broadcom's hardware we were complaining about
[10:07] <mchou> tell raspi you want whatever license pak, and have them go to broadcom and negotiate price
[10:07] <smw> mchou, what?
[10:07] <Henchman21> forget broadcom alltogether
[10:07] <mchou> Dagger2: that's the point, you implement your own SoC, no need for broadcom
[10:07] <smw> mchou, I don't want licenses, I want to know how to program the hardware
[10:07] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: everyone does that tbh
[10:07] <rm> I don't want any licenses for codecs from broadcom, I want the ability to write programs for the computer I bought
[10:08] <Ben64> and you can on the rpi
[10:08] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, afaik, my laptop is not crippled :-P
[10:08] <mchou> rm: I already said, you never paid for that functionality
[10:08] <Dagger2> mchou: but that doesn't fix broadcom's hardware, which still exists and still isn't open, so it doesn't fix the problem
[10:08] <slaeshjag> A general purpose peice of hardware locked down into a special purpose appliance, doesn't that just sound *so* good? :P
[10:08] <Henchman21> FPGA
[10:08] <mchou> Dagger2: no, but it puts pressure on broadcom to open up
[10:08] <Dagger2> mchou: it means there's *a* SoC I can use, but I still can't use Broadcom's, and I should be able to
[10:09] <Henchman21> oh my next project is a reprap 3d printer
[10:09] <SphericalCow> Seeing people argue against their interests as computer users to freely reprogram chips that they own makes me want to slam my head on my desk repeatedly.
[10:09] <tntexplosivesltd> it's frustrating
[10:09] <smw> SphericalCow, against our interests?
[10:10] <mchou> SphericalCow: if you're so smart feel free to go develop your own SoC
[10:10] <Henchman21> i think theres a company you can send the chip to to have it reverse engineered
[10:10] * stereohead-away is now known as stereohead
[10:10] <mchou> and not use any patents
[10:10] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: oh god enough of the childish personal attacks
[10:10] <smw> SphericalCow, ah, you are on my side, nm :-P
[10:10] <SphericalCow> mchou I would love to, but there is more to it than that
[10:10] <mchou> tntexplosivesltd: bullshit. That's precisely the point
[10:10] <jzu> please remember this is first and foremost an education device, *using* F/LOSS, and has never been intended as a piece of open hardware
[10:11] <Henchman21> watch the lang /topic
[10:11] <SphericalCow> I'd need loads of time, significant investment, fabricating the hardware would be expensive. You know that's an impractical thing for me to do
[10:11] <jzu> it's sad, but that's the way it is
[10:11] <smw> jzu, we know this
[10:11] <Ben64> what would you want to do on the rpi that you can't because of broadcom?
[10:11] <mchou> SphericalCow: that's right. so you realize there is value ther
[10:11] <mchou> SphericalCow: that's right. so you realize there is value there
[10:11] <smw> jzu, we are right now 1. pissed off at broadcom and 2. pissed off at the who system :-P
[10:12] <Byan> what're you guys talking about.
[10:12] <mchou> Byan: licenses
[10:12] <RaTTuS|BIG> ^ no they not
[10:12] <smw> jzu, I hold nothing against RP choosing the broadcom videocore.
[10:12] <mchou> Byan: codecs
[10:12] <tntexplosivesltd> half the reason the hardware is "locked down" is so people don't go and destroy it, then blame broadcom for making it not work
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[10:12] <smw> mchou, no, we are talking about locked down hardware
[10:12] <slaeshjag> Byan: More specifically: Licenses to use the hardware
[10:12] <Ben64> is everyone just mad because you can't play mpeg2
[10:12] <smw> mchou, not just codecs
[10:12] <jzu> otoh, I'm sure people *will* reverse engineer this stuff
[10:12] <SphericalCow> mchou sure, and the chip manufacturers wouldn't lose anything by letting users reprogram whatever specialized video decoding chip we're discussing
[10:12] <smw> mchou, licenses have nothing to do with this.
[10:13] * stereohead is now known as stereohead-away
[10:13] <mchou> which part dont you get? Chip manufactures don't "own" the codec tech
[10:13] <Byan> I doubt that it would be illegal to use the hardware mpeg2 codec on the boardcom, if you found your way into it
[10:13] <mchou> they licensed it from mpeg-la
[10:13] <mchou> as an example
[10:13] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: so to establish where we're at, we're arguing that the hardware shouldn't be locked down
[10:13] <smw> ok, now I think mchou is mentally challenged
[10:13] <tntexplosivesltd> nothing to do with codecs at all
[10:14] <smw> mchou, nothing to do with any type of licensing or codecs
[10:14] <mchou> bwhahah!!
[10:14] <slaeshjag> mchou: We're not tanking about the stupid codecs, we're talking about the DSP not being very programmable
[10:14] <mchou> if the raspi.org page were up you'd see it's ALL about licensing
[10:15] <tntexplosivesltd> that's not what WE are arguing
[10:15] <mchou> baloney
[10:15] <markvandenborre> this is why stuff like http://fosdem.org/2012/schedule/event/mali is so important
[10:15] <mchou> you are arguing exactly that
[10:16] <tntexplosivesltd> my god...
[10:16] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, "mentally challenged"
[10:16] * MartijnVdS (~martijn@2001:41c8:1:5d04::121) has left #raspberrypi
[10:16] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: stop and read for a moment would you please
[10:16] <tntexplosivesltd> we are talking about the ardware being locked down
[10:16] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, I think he just wants to steer the conversation to licenses
[10:16] <tntexplosivesltd> * hard
[10:17] <mchou> I already gave you the swiss army knife analogy
[10:17] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: because that's all he knows
[10:17] <mchou> youe didn't pay for all the blades or tools in it
[10:17] <smw> mchou, I paid for the hardware they worked so hard to make
[10:17] <mchou> you want to use the specialized ISA, no can do
[10:17] <tntexplosivesltd> we're arguing that the chip should be provided with access to all the "blades and tools"
[10:18] <tntexplosivesltd> from the start
[10:18] <smw> you should not need to pay to sharpen the blade of the swiss army knife
[10:18] <smw> or replace it with a better one
[10:18] <mchou> and like I said, you, and more importantly, broadcom in this case, didn't pay for it
[10:19] <smw> mchou, what do you mean broadcom did not pay for it?
[10:19] <tntexplosivesltd> we're arguing that that's how the chip should have been designed
[10:19] <Byan> who says that the hardware is locked down anyways?
[10:19] <tntexplosivesltd> Byan: it is...
[10:19] <Byan> in what way?
[10:19] <smw> mchou, broadcom did not pay for what exactly?
[10:19] * djazz (~djazz@static-212.214.85.166.addr.tdcsong.se) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:19] <mchou> because if order for bcom to give you that ISA they have to pay upstream to the licensee
[10:19] <smw> mchou, they don't need to pay for something to make their hardware usable
[10:20] <smw> mchou, ISA?
[10:20] <mchou> smw: that's precisely the part you missed
[10:20] <RaTTuS|BIG> forum is back
[10:20] <Byan> tntexplosivesltd: can you explain how it's locked down?
[10:20] <smw> mchou, what is an ISA?
[10:20] <mchou> smw: it's not their "HW"
[10:20] <tntexplosivesltd> Byan: in that there is no access to being able to program it
[10:20] <slaeshjag> Byan: Only with a license do you get access to the tools needed to program it
[10:20] <smw> mchou, wait, what/
[10:20] <smw> ?
[10:21] <smw> mchou, whose is it then?
[10:21] <tntexplosivesltd> or change how it works
[10:21] <tntexplosivesltd> Byan: ir look at the datasheet/specs
[10:21] <mchou> I already told you, for example, mpeg-la
[10:21] <Byan> but thats not really locked down at all? is there a secure mechanism stopping you from writing your own tools from programming it?
[10:21] <Byan> where is this datasheet?
[10:21] <smw> mchou, no, mpeg-la does not own the hardware specs
[10:21] <slaeshjag> mchou: It's not a hardware decoder
[10:21] <mchou> smw: they own the tech that made that hw possible
[10:22] <tntexplosivesltd> Byan: there's no way for anyone to find out how to program it
[10:22] <smw> mchou, it is not a hardware decoder. It is a general purpose CPU that is very good at certain types of number crunching
[10:22] <tntexplosivesltd> in the first place
[10:22] <mchou> no, it's specialized isa
[10:22] <smw> mchou, what is an ISA
[10:22] <smw> mchou, please define the words you use. Especially when asked multiple times
[10:22] <mchou> and you don't get to use that isa
[10:22] <tntexplosivesltd> I google ISA and get nothing to do with a technology
[10:22] * smw stops talking
[10:23] <slaeshjag> VideoCore is a low-power mobile multimedia processor architecture originally developed by Alphamosaic Ltd, now owned by Broadcom. Its two-dimensional DSP architecture makes it flexible and efficient enough to decode as well as encode a number of multimedia codecs in software, while maintaining low power usage.
[10:23] <Byan> tntexplosivesltd: doesn't it grab from the firmware from the SD card?
[10:23] <mchou> smw: you guys talk DSP and don't even know what an isa is
[10:23] <tntexplosivesltd> Byan: yes, it grabs a binary blob
[10:23] <Byan> if thats the case.. go read the firmware..
[10:23] <smw> mchou, you have yet to explain it and yet, still use it in EVERY line
[10:23] <tntexplosivesltd> it's a binary blob
[10:23] <tntexplosivesltd> you can't read a binary blob
[10:24] <slaeshjag> tntexplosivesltd: you can, just don't expect it to make any sense :P
[10:24] <Byan> so, we don't know the instruction set?
[10:24] <mchou> smw: goggle cpu isa
[10:24] <SphericalCow> mchou: so, the situation is that the MPEG-LA licenses patents to Broadcom that specifically cover some part of the ISA of the VideoCore chip?
[10:24] <Dagger2> Byan: I *think* there is signing to prevent you from loading your own firmware blob onto the GPU. but even if there isn't, there's no way to compile your own blobs so you're stuffed anyway
[10:24] <slaeshjag> Byan: nope, and we probably don't know other things needed to program it
[10:24] <smw> mchou, why not just say architecture like a normal person?
[10:24] <mchou> SphericalCow: no, not the isa, but the tech behind the isa
[10:24] <smw> mchou, why do you think mpeg-la owns the ISA?
[10:25] <mchou> smw: go read the mpeg standards
[10:25] <smw> mchou, why not say "instruction set" or "architecture"
[10:25] <smw> mchou, I would have understood both of those :-P
[10:25] <mchou> cause isa is 3 letters
[10:25] <RaTTuS|BIG> mp3 is not free also
[10:26] <smw> mchou, yes, but when no one knows what it means except you... you are allowed to use a few letters to explain it
[10:26] <mchou> correct
[10:26] <SphericalCow> mchou: Do you happen to know some specific patent numbers? It would be interesting to take a look.
[10:26] <smw> mchou, and arch is only 4 :-P
[10:26] <mchou> SphericalCow: it's all disclosed in the mpeg spec
[10:26] <mchou> (as an example)
[10:27] <tntexplosivesltd> so no
[10:27] <tntexplosivesltd> the answer is no
[10:27] <mchou> has to be because it's part of the standards
[10:27] <smw> mchou, I do not believe the mpeg-la owns it and is forbidding its use as a general processor.
[10:27] <mchou> sigh
[10:27] <mchou> go believe whatever you want
[10:27] <smw> mchou, I would like some proof of that
[10:27] <smw> mchou, I reference somewhere?
[10:27] <smw> mchou, how do you know it?
[10:28] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: he has said to look at the spec
[10:28] <mchou> mpeg spec, I already told you
[10:28] <tntexplosivesltd> a lot of your answers will be there
[10:28] <tntexplosivesltd> and will make more sense than mchou
[10:28] <smw> lol
[10:29] <smw> mchou, how do YOU know this
[10:29] <mchou> oh lord
[10:29] <smw> mchou, you must have found some sort of evidence
[10:29] <tntexplosivesltd> by reading the standard I would assume
[10:29] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/new-blog-post-from-jamesh-on-the-main-page/page-2#p36952
[10:29] <smw> mchou, there must be something you saw that makes you think this.
[10:29] <mchou> because I've participated in standard bodies
[10:29] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, of course
[10:30] <Byan> so, just so we're on the same page..
[10:30] <mchou> any engineer would know this
[10:30] <smw> mchou, what exact part of the videocore instruction set is the problem?
[10:30] <mchou> whichever ones you need a license for
[10:30] <Byan> mchou is saying that there are instructions that, in themselves, us a patented process. As such, those instructions can't be available for common use.
[10:30] <smw> mchou, that is what I am asking
[10:31] <tntexplosivesltd> Byan: I think so
[10:31] <smw> Byan, yes, but I have yet to hear which ones those were
[10:31] <SphericalCow> It wouldn't surprise me if mchou was correct on this. The MPEG-LA patent pool is huge (48 pages long) and they probably have a few things they can pull on hardware manufacturers
[10:31] <tntexplosivesltd> a lot of it has been lost in insults
[10:31] <Dagger2> Byan: even if that's true, it's not a reason to keep the architecture a secret
[10:31] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, yep. And the fact that he is so vague does not help
[10:31] <Ben64> a lot of hardware is like that
[10:31] <Ben64> its not really a big deal
[10:31] <Byan> but it's their rigth to keep the hardware a secret..
[10:32] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, I have no intention of reading the videocore isa (which I can not obtain) and the mpeg-la spec to find the overlap
[10:32] * Kostic (~Kostic]@net132-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:32] <Dagger2> Byan: yes, it is. but they shouldn't.
[10:32] * djazz (~djazz@static-212.214.85.166.addr.tdcsong.se) has left #raspberrypi
[10:32] <smw> mchou must have some reason he can point to as the reason he believes there is overlap
[10:32] <Ben64> smw: you could just google for it
[10:32] <smw> perhaps an article/statement? A specific feature he knows the videocore to support
[10:33] <mchou> you don't need a reason. go read the raspi.org page when it comes back up
[10:33] <smw> Ben64, google for what?
[10:33] <tntexplosivesltd> the site is back uo
[10:33] <tntexplosivesltd> * up
[10:33] <tntexplosivesltd> THE SITE IS UP!!!
[10:33] <Ben64> i had to google for you to show xvid and divx are mpeg4
[10:33] <smw> it isup
[10:33] <tntexplosivesltd> (as was said warlier)
[10:33] <smw> mchou, link please
[10:33] <tntexplosivesltd> * earlier
[10:33] <mchou> so go read the first post regarding licensing
[10:34] <smw> on their blog?
[10:34] <mchou> yup
[10:34] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/new-blog-post-from-jamesh-on-the-main-page/page-2/#p36952
[10:34] <mchou> where the dude from broadcom talks about it
[10:34] <smw> mchou, how about providing a link
[10:34] * Kostic (~Kostic]@net132-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has left #raspberrypi
[10:34] <mchou> dude
[10:34] <SphericalCow> It's a crappy situation but the reality probably means they can't do much about it
[10:34] <mchou> it's on their front page
[10:34] <smw> mchou, the blog post is on their front page?
[10:35] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: help yourself please
[10:35] <mchou> yup
[10:35] <mchou> click on "Home"
[10:35] <smw> ah, first post
[10:35] <smw> I see it
[10:35] <smw> I thought it was old
[10:35] <mchou> freaking A
[10:37] <Davespice> wow, are we still arguing about open source blobs? :)
[10:37] <tntexplosivesltd> * closed source
[10:37] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice: yeaha
[10:37] <mchou> Davespice: nope
[10:38] * Davespice shrugs
[10:38] <Davespice> change the record! :)
[10:38] <tntexplosivesltd> Davespice: mchou spent 2 hours earlier arguing about twitter XD
[10:38] <mchou> Davespice: trying to educated the unwashed masses regarding how licensing works
[10:38] <Davespice> oh right I see, to do with codecs?
[10:38] <mchou> Davespice: yup
[10:38] <tntexplosivesltd> that wasn't what we were talking about
[10:38] <Davespice> right e o
[10:38] <tntexplosivesltd> my god
[10:39] <smw> mchou, just read the post... it says nothing about licenses on the hardware
[10:39] <Davespice> sorry to butt in rudly, carry on :)
[10:39] <mchou> oh lord
[10:39] <smw> mchou, just what software they could provide...
[10:39] <tntexplosivesltd> it was indirectly linked to any licence whatsoever
[10:39] <smw> mchou, did I miss something here?
[10:40] <mchou> yes you did
[10:40] * qptain_Nemo (~qN@81.200.28.83) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:40] <smw> mchou, it said nothing about broadcom being able to give us access
[10:40] <mchou> it aint about broadcom
[10:40] <Ben64> ???_???
[10:40] <smw> mchou, just which ones they could make official software for
[10:40] <mchou> sigh
[10:41] <mchou> read the part in italics where it says what the chip is capable of
[10:41] * tsdedst (~tsdedst@188.250.212.252) Quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
[10:41] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[10:41] <smw> mchou, that is just what software they made for it!
[10:41] <mchou> and then figure out why those parts aren't ENABLED
[10:41] <smw> mchou, those "parts"?
[10:41] <mchou> sheesh
[10:42] <smw> mchou, it is a general purpose cpu
[10:42] <smw> mchou, that is software that is supporting those codecs
[10:42] <mchou> lol
[10:42] <Ben64> ????????
[10:42] <tntexplosivesltd> the problem in this case is that the CODECS are restricted due to licence issues
[10:42] <mchou> tweet-tweet
[10:42] <smw> Ben64, I don't have chars for those
[10:42] <tntexplosivesltd> the hardware can do it
[10:42] <Ben64> nobody can probably see them, but its true
[10:42] <tntexplosivesltd> Ben64: lol
[10:42] <Ben64> first one is a horse, second one is a hammer
[10:43] <Ben64> because you're beating a dead horse
[10:43] <Ben64> :|
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't beleive you
[10:43] <Ben64> get better fonts
[10:43] <smw> Ben64, lol
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> Ben64: what font pack?
[10:43] <Ben64> its unicode
[10:43] <Ben64> but way way high up
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> or are you windows?
[10:43] <Ben64> linux
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> what font/
[10:43] <smw> Ben64, I can see it is up high
[10:43] <tntexplosivesltd> * ?
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[10:43] <smw> Ben64, it is a whole 3 bytes
[10:43] <Ben64> i have a frankenfont
[10:44] <Ben64> combine fonts in fontforge = uber font
[10:44] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[10:44] <Ben64> apparently there is no complete unicode font anywhere
[10:44] <tntexplosivesltd> so it's ultimately pointless XD
[10:44] <smw> mchou, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. We are done :-)
[10:44] <Ben64> although, i think iphone people can see them :(
[10:44] <mchou> I see dead people :)
[10:45] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: what's your problem now?
[10:45] <tntexplosivesltd> "Dom adds: As an aside, the GPU can hardware decode H264, MPEG1/2/4, VC1, AVS, MJPG at 1080p30. It can software (but still vector accelerated) decode VP6, VP7, VP8, RV, Theora, WMV9 at DVD resolutions. We are restricted due to licensing what we can support. We should be able to support VP8, MJPG and Theora, as I believe they are license free."
[10:45] <Ben64> someone on an iphone tweeted ???? recently, I had to look it up and add it to my android font
[10:45] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[10:45] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, lol
[10:46] <tntexplosivesltd> what is the issue now?
[10:46] <smw> same as it was originally?
[10:46] <smw> and what, no WebM?
[10:46] <tntexplosivesltd> restate for clarity please
[10:47] <markvandenborre> does anyone know if there will be raspberry pi devices around at FOSDEM this weekend?
[10:47] <Ben64> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f40e/browsertest.htm http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f528/browsertest.htm
[10:47] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, the problem is the hardware is locked down :-P
[10:47] <tntexplosivesltd> so what would you hope to achieve by having it open?
[10:47] <markvandenborre> http://fosdem.org
[10:48] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, 1. support for more codecs. 2. who knows what else you could program on it. Perhaps it could speed up encryption?
[10:48] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, par2 checking
[10:48] <markvandenborre> I'd love to see some there
[10:48] <Ben64> you can already do that on the cpu
[10:48] <smw> Ben64, but if you don't do it on the CPU, the CPU can do other things
[10:48] <mchou> that part isn't patent encumbered :)
[10:48] <tntexplosivesltd> so as a small tangent, it CAN do MPEG-2
[10:49] <tntexplosivesltd> markvandenborre: haven't heard anything
[10:49] <smw> mchou, but it still can't do it.
[10:49] <smw> mchou, that is the problem
[10:49] <markvandenborre> and it just might actually _help_ with driver issues, seeing there's some of the top xorg, wayland and embedded people around
[10:49] <Ben64> until recently, you couldn't do that on an nvidia gpu
[10:49] <smw> mchou, and it isn't a part
[10:49] <Ben64> did you not buy gpus because of it?
[10:49] <mchou> that's like saying my i386 can decode mpeg2 1080p
[10:50] <markvandenborre> I've been too shy about asking in the past few months
[10:50] <mchou> go ahead and try it
[10:50] <tntexplosivesltd> markvandenborre: maybe make a post on the forum?
[10:50] <mchou> see what kind of "experience" you get
[10:50] <markvandenborre> tntexplosivesltd: already happened weeks ago
[10:50] <markvandenborre> no answer
[10:50] <tntexplosivesltd> ah
[10:51] <tntexplosivesltd> =(
[10:51] <markvandenborre> but you're right, should have another go and hope liz isn't too extremly insanely busy working on the launc
[10:51] <markvandenborre> h
[10:51] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[10:51] * Kostic (~Kostic]@net132-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:51] <smw> Ben64, but you can do it on an nvidia gpu :-). Not to mention that the main processor is slow :-(
[10:52] <tntexplosivesltd> *sigh*
[10:52] <Ben64> smw: couldn't always do it
[10:52] <smw> Ben64, I know.
[10:52] <tntexplosivesltd> so you want to effectively use OpenCV
[10:52] <Ben64> so did you yell at nvidia for years
[10:52] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, yes
[10:52] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, that would be awesome
[10:53] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, if they supported it I mean. If not, using it the same way they do is good enough
[10:53] <Byan> I wonder if someone can somehow extract the blob from the roku firmware..
[10:53] <Byan> does roku distribute firmware..
[10:53] <markvandenborre> there _is_ http://fosdem.org/2012/schedule/event/towards_accelerated_uis_on_mobile_linux_qt5
[10:54] <smw> Ben64, I guess the issue is that I am seeing what it can do and I am seeing them say "sorry, we will only let you use certain software".
[10:54] <Ben64> smw: i don't think you really understand what they're saying
[10:54] <tntexplosivesltd> markvandenborre: close enough XD
[10:54] <smw> Ben64, ok, what are they saying?
[10:55] <Ben64> the gpu is closed
[10:56] <mchou> smw: you canstill run a (SW) mpeg decoder\
[10:56] <smw> Ben64, I knew it was closed
[10:56] <mchou> smw: whether it provides a usable experience is another story
[10:56] <Henchman21> jeez you all still talking about the GPU?
[10:56] <smw> mchou, but I can't run a SW mpeg decoder on the videocore :-P
[10:56] <tntexplosivesltd> mchou: there's gonna be an mpeg lib anyway =D
[10:57] <smw> mchou, and it is not mpeg that matters :-P
[10:57] <mchou> Henchman21: tell you, tards!
[10:57] <Ben64> smw: you can do anything you want on the cpu
[10:57] <Ben64> go crazy
[10:57] <smw> Ben64, but the videocore is a cpu too :-P
[10:57] <Ben64> gpu
[10:57] <RaTTuS|BIG> gpu
[10:57] <tntexplosivesltd> smw: it's not really a CPU
[10:57] <Henchman21> somone on a few days ago was trying to RE the GPU blob
[10:57] <Dagger2> Ben64: you'll note it's the VideoCore we're complaining about, not the ARM
[10:57] <smw> same difference :-P
[10:57] <tntexplosivesltd> it's much much more specialised
[10:57] <Ben64> Dagger2: i know
[10:57] <smw> it runs software :-P
[10:57] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[10:57] <RaTTuS|BIG> magical_tux was working on it
[10:58] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, yes, that is true
[10:58] <Henchman21> probably had it loaded up in a hexeditor trying to decompile it
[10:58] <Dagger2> Ben64: we know you can do stuff on the CPU, you don't need to remind us. it's the VideoCore you can't, which is why we're complaining about that
[10:58] <Ben64> but theres a perfectly good cpu
[10:58] <Ben64> don't worry about the gpu
[10:58] <tntexplosivesltd> what about zpidberg?
[10:58] <smw> Ben64, but it is slow.
[10:58] <tntexplosivesltd> * zoidberg
[10:58] <Henchman21> 700mhz is barely slow
[10:59] <Dagger2> Ben64: there's a perfectly good CPU in my desktop too; it's irrelevant because I still can't run code on the VideoCore
[10:59] <mchou> pfft
[10:59] <Henchman21> although my old xbox is 700mhz
[10:59] <Ben64> you don't need to run code on the videocore
[10:59] <Dagger2> and being able to run code on the RPi's ARM doesn't magically make me able to run code on the VideoCore
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> Henchman21: lol and it was quite optimised XD
[10:59] <smw> Ben64, I don't need to run code at all
[10:59] <Dagger2> I'm not saying I need to or not, I'm complaining that I *can't*
[10:59] <tntexplosivesltd> try running GTA3 on an r-pi XD
[10:59] <Ben64> and if you could, the likelihood would be you couldn't write anything for it either
[11:00] <Ben64> smw: then don't complain?
[11:00] <Dagger2> and saying that I should be able to, regardless of need, want, skill, motivation or any other reason that might get in the way
[11:00] <smw> Ben64, I have been playing with gpu programming
[11:00] <Ben64> smw: videocore gpu programming?
[11:00] <smw> Ben64, although, I must say that all I have done is stuff like finding prime numbers
[11:00] * Kostic (~Kostic]@net132-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has left #raspberrypi
[11:00] <smw> no, not video
[11:00] <Ben64> then its irrelevant
[11:00] <smw> not videocore*
[11:01] <smw> Ben64, I could adapt
[11:01] <smw> Ben64, especially if I had a $35 one
[11:01] <smw> Ben64, it would give me real projects to use it for :-)
[11:01] <tntexplosivesltd> unfortunately it's not a GPU dev computer. Would be cool if it was
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> tl;dr you can't have everything in life
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> the end
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> next topic
[11:02] <Ben64> new topic - why is my firefox taking 4GB of memory
[11:02] <smw> tntexplosivesltd, next topic. ETHERNET AND USB ON THE SAME BUS?!
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> Ben64: lots of tabs?
[11:02] <Ben64> 3 tabs
[11:02] <tntexplosivesltd> Ben64: what version?
[11:02] <Ben64> 9
[11:03] <tntexplosivesltd> mine's taking 300MB
[11:03] <Ben64> i think something broke
[11:03] <tntexplosivesltd> been watching youtube vids?
[11:03] <RaTTuS|BIG> becase ff is rubbish
[11:03] <Ben64> nope
[11:03] <tntexplosivesltd> or other flash stuff?
[11:03] <Henchman21> Model A: 1000mA - 500mA -> max power draw: 500mA
[11:03] <Henchman21> Model B: 1000mA - 700mA -> max power draw: 300mA
[11:03] <Ben64> its lagging mm right now
[11:03] <tntexplosivesltd> mm?
[11:03] <Ben64> mm = my whole system
[11:03] <Henchman21> http://elinux.org/Rpi_Low-level_peripherals
[11:03] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[11:03] <Ben64> messing with input too...
[11:03] <tntexplosivesltd> =(
[11:03] <tntexplosivesltd> kill it with fire
[11:04] <Ben64> sh: fire: command not found
[11:04] <tntexplosivesltd> aww
[11:04] <tntexplosivesltd> make an alias to kill -9
[11:04] <tntexplosivesltd> so fire does kill -9
[11:04] <Ben64> 26094: no process found
[11:04] <Ben64> wtf
[11:04] <tntexplosivesltd> ACTUALLY
[11:04] <tntexplosivesltd> doing that now
[11:05] <tntexplosivesltd> Ben64: sudo?
[11:05] <Ben64> i just did /exec -o killall `pidof firefox`
[11:05] <Ben64> oh duh, can't killall pids
[11:05] <Ben64> /exec -o kill `pidof firefox`
[11:05] <Ben64> problem solved
[11:05] <slaeshjag> killall takes program name as arg :P
[11:05] <RaTTuS|BIG> sudo shutdown -r now
[11:05] <Ben64> no way
[11:06] <Ben64> total used free shared buffers cached
[11:06] <Ben64> Mem: 3961 1088 2872 0 7 489
[11:06] <Ben64> memory is lookin good now
[11:06] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[11:06] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[11:06] <tntexplosivesltd> killall firefox
[11:06] <slaeshjag> Ben64: Uh... remember that it's the numbers on the +/- buffers row that matters :P
[11:07] <Ben64> -/+ buffers/cache: 592 3369
[11:07] <tntexplosivesltd> yay
[11:07] <Ben64> i have a memory graph in my panel
[11:07] <Ben64> shows cache a lighter color
[11:07] <tntexplosivesltd> alias fire='kill -9 '
[11:07] <tntexplosivesltd> =D
[11:07] <slaeshjag> since buffers and cache are just there to make use of the memory you don't use. They are reduced as the memory usage goes up
[11:08] <smw> I don't understand why caches count as used memory in reports :-
[11:08] <smw> :-\
[11:09] <tntexplosivesltd> because it's not "free"
[11:09] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[11:09] <Ben64> i like cache
[11:09] <slaeshjag> It's used for something, but it is freed when needed
[11:10] <Henchman21> alias fire='for pid in $(ps ax|awk '{print $1}'); do kill -KILL $pid; done'
[11:10] <smw> slaeshjag, yes, but by default, no one cares how much cache is being used :-P
[11:10] <Ben64> 339103232 bytes (339 MB) copied, 2.95231 s, 115 MB/s
[11:10] <Ben64> 339103232 bytes (339 MB) copied, 0.311671 s, 1.1 GB/s
[11:10] <Ben64> yay cache
[11:10] <smw> slaeshjag, Mem: 3761 3458 302 sounds very awful
[11:10] <slaeshjag> smw: That's why there's a second row ;)
[11:10] <smw> slaeshjag, (total, used, free)
[11:10] * schigndix (~schigndix@89.204.154.204) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:11] <smw> slaeshjag, yes
[11:11] <Ben64> also a cached column
[11:11] <smw> slaeshjag, but most systems show including cache more prominently :-)
[11:11] * schigndix (~schigndix@89.204.154.204) Quit (Client Quit)
[11:11] <smw> or if they choose one, that is what they choose
[11:12] <slaeshjag> What does "most" systems include?
[11:13] <ahven> I dislike the forums ticker removed from the main page
[11:13] <smw> slaeshjag, everything I have ever come across :-P
[11:13] <tntexplosivesltd> ahven: it was putting load on the database
[11:13] <tntexplosivesltd> lots of load
[11:13] <ahven> then cache it? :)
[11:14] <tntexplosivesltd> but it's a live ticker...
[11:14] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[11:14] <smw> slaeshjag, wow, I stand corrected. htop is smarter :-D. Another reason to love htop
[11:14] <tntexplosivesltd> caching makes sense if it hardly changes
[11:14] <Ben64> yeah, htop is awesome
[11:14] <tntexplosivesltd> +1 that
[11:14] <tntexplosivesltd> crap, bed timw
[11:14] <tntexplosivesltd> night all
[11:14] * M0GHY (~peterholl@188.65.96.15) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:15] <tntexplosivesltd> * time
[11:15] <tntexplosivesltd> >.>
[11:15] <slaeshjag> smw: I don't know what others do, since I've pretty much used one type of system for about four years now :P
[11:16] <Ben64> slaeshjag: what do you run
[11:16] <slaeshjag> Debian
[11:16] <RITRedbeard> C64
[11:16] <RITRedbeard> 2600 with homebrew bit-banging modem
[11:17] <slaeshjag> I once had a hobby that consisted of me calling a modem-pool with my cellphone and made noises to try keeping up the connection as long as possible
[11:17] <smw> slaeshjag, system == program
[11:18] <slaeshjag> smw: for memory, only free
[11:18] <smw> slaeshjag, yeah, my dad loved to do that :-P
[11:18] <RITRedbeard> that's BS right there
[11:18] <slaeshjag> My record is 5 minutes 28 seconds :)
[11:18] <RITRedbeard> system != program
[11:18] <smw> slaeshjag, not see how long he could keep a connection. But try to get it to respond :-)
[11:19] <smw> RITRedbeard, I am saying that is what I meant to say
[11:19] * piofcube (~piofcube@piofcube.1billionhex.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[11:19] * piofcube (~piofcube@piofcube.1billionhex.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:19] <slaeshjag> smw: Do I need to say my friends stopped talking to me? :)
[11:20] <smw> slaeshjag, you once had friends?!
[11:20] <slaeshjag> yus
[11:21] <smw> slaeshjag, I have heard that is possible :-P
[11:21] <RITRedbeard> might have to rethink memory management/source allocation with Raspberry.
[11:21] <slaeshjag> meh, 256 MB is plenty
[11:22] <RITRedbeard> for 20 browser tabs?
[11:22] <RITRedbeard> I dunno about that.
[11:22] <slaeshjag> who uses browser tabs?
[11:22] <smw> slaeshjag, me
[11:22] <RITRedbeard> Chrome, Firefox, IE, Opera
[11:22] <RITRedbeard> ummm
[11:22] * slaeshjag has a browser that doesn't even support tabs
[11:22] <slaeshjag> I like it like that :)
[11:22] <smw> slaeshjag, you are missing out
[11:23] <RITRedbeard> PITY FOR YOU! SUCH SQUALLORED COMPUTING CONDITIONS GOOD SIR!
[11:23] <slaeshjag> smw: http://slaeshjag.org/?viewpost=18 <- messy ramblings about it :)
[11:24] * victhor (~victhor@177.19.55.116) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:26] <smw> slaeshjag, I have been wanting to try a tiling windows manager
[11:26] <smw> slaeshjag, window*
[11:26] <smw> slaeshjag, I heard they are good :-)
[11:26] <smw> slaeshjag, you suggest dwm?
[11:26] <RITRedbeard> interesting
[11:26] <slaeshjag> that's what I'm using ;)
[11:27] <RITRedbeard> so why dwm versus LXDE?
[11:27] <smw> The following NEW packages will be installed:
[11:27] <smw> dwm suckless-tools
[11:27] <smw> RITRedbeard, I have a couple reasons for disliking lxde
[11:27] <slaeshjag> I wouldn't recommend installing it from a repo
[11:27] <RITRedbeard> did it pour sugar down your gas tank and fondle your mum again? :(
[11:27] <smw> athough I think I will have some of the same problems with lxde :-\
[11:27] <slaeshjag> All configuration is done in the source code
[11:27] <RITRedbeard> damn that lxde!
[11:27] <smw> same problems with dwm I mean
[11:28] <smw> RITRedbeard, lxde's panel kept hanging
[11:28] <smw> RITRedbeard, happened twice a week or so
[11:28] <RITRedbeard> damn communist software
[11:28] <RITRedbeard> damn Stallman!
[11:29] <smw> Stallman is Stalin in disguise!
[11:29] <Henchman21> shut your whore mouth
[11:30] <slaeshjag> in capitalist amerika, software owns you!
[11:30] <RITRedbeard> chop off bits of the l to form an i and disregard the unnecessary letters
[11:30] <smw> Henchman21, what then what should I do with my whore?
[11:30] <Henchman21> stallman preaches freedom not bondage
[11:31] <smw> Henchman21, preaches is a good word
[11:31] <RITRedbeard> He probably drops LSD every weekend too.
[11:31] <smw> Henchman21, at the same time, he does stuff like support the GPL
[11:31] <smw> Was he involved in writing the original?
[11:31] <smw> I am not sure
[11:31] <RITRedbeard> Well, that's just like
[11:31] <RITRedbeard> your
[11:32] <RITRedbeard> opinion...
[11:32] <RITRedbeard> ...man.
[11:32] <victhor> does he have a water supply?
[11:32] <smw> RITRedbeard, don't make fun of my man, Stalin!
[11:33] <victhor> or does he think the water utility's water isn't "free as in free speech" and refuses to use it for anything...? :P
[11:33] <victhor> it certainly isn't free as in free beer :P
[11:33] <slaeshjag> Water is included in my rent \o/
[11:34] <RITRedbeard> I like the default window manager that comes with Ubuntu (no, not Unity ribbon crap either, the one before that)
[11:34] <smw> <flamebait>Damn commies and their GPL. Use BSD like real Americans@</flamebait>
[11:34] <smw> that @ should be a ! :-P
[11:34] <RITRedbeard> I think slaeshjag's complaint would be filled with the virtual desktops
[11:34] <RITRedbeard> which is brilliant, especially if you're coming from Mac OS X or Windows land.
[11:35] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: I use tags
[11:35] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: They are like virtual desktops, but awesome
[11:35] <RITRedbeard> Picture required.
[11:36] <RITRedbeard> You have half a minute to comply.
[11:36] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: None needed. You assign tags to windows. Then you can bring up any of those windows by activating it's tag.
[11:36] <RITRedbeard> Stalin demands it.
[11:37] <RITRedbeard> Tags like this window is assigned ctrl-1?
[11:37] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: yes
[11:37] <smw> RITRedbeard, you know, Stallman is right on a few things
[11:37] <RITRedbeard> so on ctrl-1, this window will be visable and on ctrl-alt-1 this window will be visible AND in focus?
[11:37] <smw> it is just lost in all his nonsense
[11:38] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: yes.
[11:38] <jzu> no real difference with virtual desktops then, since I can map hotkeys to switch to whichever desktop I want
[11:38] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: I can also bring in windows from other tags
[11:38] <RITRedbeard> damn son
[11:39] <jzu> any decent window manager lets you do that
[11:39] <RITRedbeard> smw, I know. I jest.
[11:39] <smw> RITRedbeard, he is overall an idiot though
[11:39] <slaeshjag> jzu: Can you show the windows from two virtual desktops at the same time, using only one command?
[11:40] <jzu> no - but do I need it often? no.
[11:40] <RITRedbeard> no but you can slide the window over to the same desktop
[11:40] * kcj (~casey@unaffiliated/kcj1993) Quit (Quit: Procrast...)
[11:40] <smw> RITRedbeard, he is just right on a few things that other people don't step back and look at. Mostly because people who would realize it have a vested interest in the current system :-P
[11:40] <jzu> RITRedbeard: I do that quite often
[11:40] <smw> RITRedbeard, like the fact that moving everything to websites causes serious loss of freedom/power
[11:41] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: But that requires you to first slide it to that desktop, and then going to that desktop
[11:41] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: And it probably involves using you mouse as well
[11:42] <RITRedbeard> actually you might be able to focus it with staying in the same desktop
[11:42] <RITRedbeard> because if you have the preview boxes on
[11:42] <RITRedbeard> you can select that window and then do the hotkey to move it left/right desktop
[11:43] <RITRedbeard> smw, I think much of what he says in on the money, the delivery sometimes fails the message big time.
[11:45] <RITRedbeard> like it or not the whole linux and open source thing is in the spirit of Stallman, even if people didn't get the "message"
[11:45] <RITRedbeard> even if emacs sucks and Hurd too :)
[11:48] <RITRedbeard> slaeshjag, you could probably do some wizardry to be able to move windows with hotkeys or console but you're saying you like dwm because no-nonsense does that stuff out of the box?
[11:48] <victhor> the awkward moment when you suggest a feature that is too similar to what exists on the device already.
[11:49] <slaeshjag> RITRedbeard: dwm does everything I need and nothing more, what's not to love about that?
[11:49] <RITRedbeard> Simplicity is beauty. Do one thing and do it well.
[11:49] <slaeshjag> same with surf
[11:49] <smw> RITRedbeard, and I hate that it is in the spirit of stallman. Specifically the GPL :-\
[11:50] <slaeshjag> It shows a webpage, that's it
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[11:50] <RITRedbeard> GPL and similiar licensing make headaches for businesses.
[11:50] <RITRedbeard> It is such a pain in the ass to incorporate some open source code into product.
[11:51] <RITRedbeard> Every feature is basically a three way conference call with the developers of the code, yourself, and legal.
[11:51] <slaeshjag> well, there's LGPL for libraries. And if you make modifications to a program, it's only fair that you contribute back the changes
[11:52] <Dagger2> or you could look at it the other way and say that it solves headaches because it makes open source code available to them that they can use
[11:52] <smw> slaeshjag, lgpl has other issues
[11:52] <RITRedbeard> Or you could just pull a Google.
[11:52] <smw> slaeshjag, using lgpl libs with go is a gigantic pain
[11:52] <RITRedbeard> Wait what? Portable Java? No, we developed our own JVM!
[11:52] <RITRedbeard> Google is the enemy.
[11:52] <smw> RITRedbeard, "bytecode interpreter"
[11:52] <smw> it isn't a JVM
[11:53] <smw> RITRedbeard, google is the enemy?
[11:53] <RITRedbeard> Yes.
[11:53] <slaeshjag> smw: go as google's programming language?
[11:53] * cerberos (~cerberos@58.137.9.242) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[11:53] <smw> slaeshjag, yes
[11:53] <RITRedbeard> Google is the enemy.
[11:53] <slaeshjag> smw: heh, I didn't know anyone actually used Go
[11:53] <smw> slaeshjag, any statically compiled code does not play nice with the LGPL
[11:53] <smw> slaeshjag, I do :-P
[11:54] <slaeshjag> So, LGPL taints if it's statically compiled?
[11:54] <smw> well, if you need to provide a way to replace the LGPL code in the program
[11:55] <smw> if the program is statically compiled, this is relatively easy
[11:55] * cerber0s (~cerberos@58.137.9.242) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[11:55] <smw> err
[11:55] <smw> dynamically linked it is easy
[11:55] <smw> you just relink it
[11:55] <RITRedbeard> They keep track of anything and everything. I wouldn't be surprised if the NSA has contract with them for assisted data mining.
[11:55] <smw> replace the lib, whatever.
[11:55] <RITRedbeard> That just isn't the paranoia talking.
[11:55] <smw> RITRedbeard, go is still a good language :-P
[11:56] <Dagger2> I think it's still *possible* with static code, by distributing your .o files
[11:56] <Dagger2> though there are probably issues with doing that
[11:56] <smw> Dagger2, yes, it is
[11:56] <slaeshjag> smw: Ah, yes
[11:56] <smw> Dagger2, you need to provide a way to replace the LGPL code
[11:56] <smw> Dagger2, giving out .o files is one way of course
[11:57] <RITRedbeard> The only "cloud" should be on your LAN, lord knows computing power and disk space is cheap enough.
[11:58] <smw> RITRedbeard, my company uses AWS extensively
[11:58] <smw> RITRedbeard, AWS (EC2) really is a great "cloud" service
[11:59] <RITRedbeard> well, company different than individual
[11:59] <RITRedbeard> I'm not saying it cannot be helpful
[11:59] <smw> not that cloud has a definite meaning ;-)
[11:59] <RITRedbeard> it just sucks being reliant on outside party
[11:59] <smw> yes it does
[11:59] <slaeshjag> I have all my stuff on my own personal server, it's kinda scary
[11:59] <RITRedbeard> good
[11:59] <RITRedbeard> it ought to be scary
[12:00] <slaeshjag> because I
[12:00] <slaeshjag> 'm not sure I know what I'm doing
[12:03] <Henchman21> http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/133/626/130663041612.jpg
[12:05] <slaeshjag> who are the big ponies?
[12:07] * RITRedbeard pony sounds
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[12:25] * gobby chuckles (thinking of the cockney meaning of pony)
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[13:46] <zgreg> GPL/LGPL are such a pain since they're so complicated
[13:46] <zgreg> I think copyleft licenses with less bullshit exist
[13:46] <zgreg> but yeah, BSDL (or permissive) for the win
[13:48] <Caver> I've heard of BSD ... whats BSDL?
[13:48] <Dagger2> I think the GPL is about as simple as it can get for meeting its goals though
[13:49] <Dagger2> (its goals being to guarantee that all users of the software have access to their essential freedoms with respect to it)
[13:49] <Caver> I remember the bad old days before GPL when everything was locked down
[13:50] <Dagger2> BSD-style licenses don't give that, because someone can just give them a binary with no obligation to provide source, which stuffs up their ability to analyse and modify it
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[13:53] <smw> Caver, what?
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[13:54] <smw> Caver, before the GPL, code was not locked down. At least, not in most of the time leading up to it.
[13:54] <smw> Caver, the GPL was a response to a shift towards not giving out source
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[13:55] <smw> Caver, it was a completely different time though :-P
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[13:58] <vipkilla> where can i buy a raspberrypi ?
[13:58] <vipkilla> are they released yet?
[13:58] <smw> vipkilla, nope
[13:58] <vipkilla> any ETA?
[13:59] <smw> "some time in February"
[13:59] <RaTTuS|BIG> 2 weeks
[13:59] <RaTTuS|BIG> 3days
[13:59] <RaTTuS|BIG> 17hrs
[13:59] <RaTTuS|BIG> 13 sec
[13:59] <smw> lol
[13:59] <vipkilla> i'll set my alarm
[13:59] <smw> vipkilla, it is EXPECTED this month
[13:59] <vipkilla> they said it would be end of jan
[13:59] <ReggieUK> set your phaser to kill and aim it at the next person that asks for a release date
[13:59] <smw> no promises of course ;-)
[14:00] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.raspberrypi.org/ it will be annouced there then it will be out of stockl before you can get to the shop
[14:00] <smw> lol
[14:00] <smw> I am deciding if I want one or not
[14:00] <smw> trying to figure out what I would do with it ;-)
[14:00] <Dagger2> well, the status is that they're in China, and still have to ship here, be tested and then put on sale
[14:00] <RaTTuS|BIG> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA1MTc
[14:00] <Dagger2> also they may or may not exist yet, I'm not sure if that's been confirmed either way
[14:00] <merlin1991> smw: if you're on this channel you want one, if not gtfo ;)
[14:01] <smw> merlin1991, why do you want one?
[14:01] <ReggieUK> 2-3 weeks shipping by freight then?
[14:02] <Dagger2> so you can work out the ETA yourself from all that
[14:02] <smw> ReggieUK, plus testing time
[14:02] <smw> What do people here plan to do with it?
[14:02] <smw> :-)
[14:03] <merlin1991> smw: want to build a lonworks based home automation gadget out of one :)
[14:03] <ReggieUK> I'm gonna use mine as a ninja throwing star
[14:03] <Dagger2> ReggieUK: I've had stuff from china show up in 5 days, and other stuff in 3 weeks. kinda hard to tell what will happen without confirmation either way
[14:03] <ReggieUK> 700mhz of pointy edged pain
[14:04] <smw> I am still not sure what I would do with one :-P
[14:07] <Caver> lol
[14:07] <Caver> smw: hrm well when I started playing with computers in the 1990's anything you did with windows either cost you a fortune or you had to pirate it
[14:08] <smw> Caver, at that point. I don't think it was really windows :-P
[14:09] <Caver> oh win 3.1 was around
[14:09] <smw> yeah, exactly ;-)
[14:10] <Caver> lol ... well at the time thats what things were ... mind you I had a archimedes A340, with a DOS emulator :)
[14:10] <Caver> I did get the C compiler, which cost a fortune
[14:10] <Caver> only to find the ANSI C it ran, wasn't the same as the Borland C I was learning on my course :(
[14:15] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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[14:49] <zgreg> Caver: BSDL is short for BSD license
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[14:57] <zgreg> Dagger2: re: GPL. depends, I think the GPL includes too many restrictions for its own good, especially v3.
[14:57] <zgreg> maybe GPL popularity is declining for a reason
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[14:59] <Dagger2> I think the extra v3 restrictions were necessary. it basically just closes loopholes that are of the form "sure, you have the code, but you can't actually /use/ it in any meaningful way"
[15:00] <zgreg> IMO that's not what software licenses should care about
[15:00] <Dagger2> it's no use having the code, being able to compile it but not being able to actually /use/ it because you need a signing key you don't have (ala TiVo that triggered the whole thing)
[15:05] <Dagger2> hmm... the license describes the terms under which the author is happy for you to use the software. it seems reasonable to use it to enforce the intent of "only if you're nice"
[15:06] * Caver (~Caver@nat1.nipltd.com) Quit (Quit: Bye)
[15:07] <zgreg> anyway, the best license is of course WTFPL :)
[15:08] <chris_99> whats te ETA at the mo' 1 week or so?
[15:08] <rm> for toy projects which you don't think anyone will ever use? sure
[15:09] <rm> but might as well not release those at all
[15:09] <rm> chris_99, simply shipping something from china can take 1 week+++
[15:10] <rm> we haven't heard anything was shipped yet, or even finished manufacturing
[15:10] <RaTTuS|BIG> flights
[15:10] <RaTTuS|BIG> last info was they are still in china
[15:10] <chris_99> oh, i thought it had finished manufacturing
[15:10] <zgreg> rm: http://unlicense.org/ is the serious variant of this
[15:11] <zgreg> this kind of license is interesting since the concept of public domain does not exist in many jurisdictions
[15:11] <Dagger2> you of course have free choice in what license you use... but I happen to think that guaranteeing freedoms for the eventual end-users is important; more so than giving someone the freedom to take those freedoms away
[15:12] <rm> Unlicensed Free Software
[15:12] <rm> ha
[15:12] <rm> that title can be misunderstood easily :)
[15:13] <rm> "Your honour, this person was in posession of Unlicensed software on his computer"
[15:13] <rm> zgreg, this is certainly better than WTFPL
[15:13] <rm> I have made something similar myzelf (MIT-Zero)
[15:13] <rm> but for actual usage I prefer GPL
[15:14] <mchou> wtf is up with rasoi.org web site
[15:14] <mchou> raspi*
[15:15] <mchou> multiple complaints about database connection
[15:15] <rm> works
[15:15] <RaTTuS|BIG> small site no able to cope will millions of hits
[15:15] * jmontleon (~jmontleon@c-76-19-35-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[15:15] <Dagger2> BSD/WTFPL/etc licenses do make sense in some cases... like example code, and I think BSD was probably a decent choice for e.g. libpng
[15:15] <rm> but yeah that happens sometimes
[15:15] <mchou> are they running their db of raspi?
[15:15] <Dagger2> but for decent chunks of code? yeah, GPL
[15:15] <mchou> off*
[15:16] <jzu> GPL too
[15:17] <jzu> a "difficult" case was with code I wrote for the Arduino
[15:17] <zgreg> I can't agree with the philosophy of the gpl, and the restrictions it imposes *do* cause many issues even among open source projects
[15:18] <jzu> difficult because it was inspired by a lot of Arduino code without even a copyright
[15:18] <jzu> or anything
[15:18] <zgreg> and that's quite sad, since open source basically should boil down do freely sharing code
[15:18] <jzu> zgreg: if you don't like the GPL, don't use the code
[15:18] <jzu> simple, really
[15:19] <zgreg> jzu: that's the problem, this kind of attitude
[15:19] <jzu> why?
[15:19] <mchou> zgreg: feel free to use BSD
[15:19] <zgreg> it does not exactly encourage sharing code and collaboration :)
[15:19] <mchou> baloney
[15:20] <zgreg> mchou: sure, I do that
[15:20] <rm> if you have concerns agains GPL, then it basically means you want to get other people's stuff, but not share back
[15:20] <Dagger2> zgreg: GPL actually enforces the "freely sharing code" bit though
[15:20] <Dagger2> zgreg: with BSD-style code, the first step is freely shared, but all bets are off after that
[15:20] <mchou> it prevents gpl code from being appropriated by corporate interests
[15:21] <zgreg> Dagger2: yes, but that only works if the whole ecosystem is gpl, which it isn't
[15:21] <Dagger2> zgreg: so if you *actually* care about user freedom, you're stuck with GPL. if you just want to feel good about releasing some code, the BSD will work for you
[15:21] <mchou> zgreg: stop trolling
[15:21] <zgreg> rm: sorry, but that's bullshit
[15:21] <rm> zgreg: stop trolling
[15:22] <zgreg> I'm not trolling, and I don't get it why you accuse me of that
[15:22] <zgreg> rm: point is, there's lots of permissive licensed open source projects that do get code back
[15:23] <mchou> coming to [#raspi complaining about gpl takes the cake
[15:23] <jzu> just use BSD-licensed products
[15:23] <mchou> zgreg: how open is apple's BSD junk?
[15:24] <zgreg> mchou: why? is gpl some kind of holy license? certainly not. I don't particularly like gpl, but I accept the license.
[15:24] <zgreg> mchou: quite open, in fact
[15:24] <mchou> zgreg: you argument saying gpl prevents collab is total BS
[15:24] <Dagger2> zgreg: the goal isn't to make the whole ecosystem GPL, but to make the whole ecosystem *Free*. it just so happens that the GPL aligns very well with Free
[15:25] <mchou> why don't you collab with apple and see how far you get
[15:25] <Dagger2> zgreg: and GPL is compatible with a number of other licenses. if the whole ecosystem were BSD/GPL/Apache, say, that'd be fine
[15:25] <zgreg> Dagger2: free in the gpl flavor, though.
[15:25] <mchou> like try to bring up darwin
[15:25] <mchou> see how much you enjoy that "process"
[15:26] <jzu> GPL is free but forbids certain paths of "collaboration"
[15:26] <Dagger2> zgreg: well, yes. basically free in the "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" sense
[15:26] <jzu> BSD is free too but much of the "collaboration" is one-way
[15:26] <smw> Dagger2, Apache is only compatible with GPL3
[15:27] <Dagger2> zgreg: whereas BSD-style allows you to swing your fist freely, punching whoever you like in the process. that's free, right? but I don't think it's really better
[15:27] <jzu> I, for one, prefer the GPL approach
[15:27] <smw> Dagger2, lolwut?
[15:28] <smw> Dagger2, BSD gives you real freedom. BSD is a big F U to copyright law.
[15:28] <Dagger2> smw: it seemed like a reasonable analogy to me, and I already tried the non-analogy description
[15:28] <smw> Dagger2, it pretty much says "I don't care about copyright, do what you want with it"
[15:28] <zgreg> smw: err, no it's not.
[15:28] <smw> zgreg, really? how so?
[15:28] <zgreg> BSDL requires attribution
[15:29] <Dagger2> smw: no, it doesn't. the BSD gives *someone* real freedom, but not necessarily me. the GPL guarantees that I'll get the freedom too
[15:29] <smw> zgreg, that is true, perhaps I should say "permissive licenses"
[15:29] <zgreg> well, it is a permissive license. but attribution is still required :)
[15:29] <smw> zgreg, they learned their lesson and the "new bsd license" does not have that clause
[15:29] <smw> fine
[15:29] <smw> ISC or MIT :-P
[15:29] <zgreg> smw: no, that's the advertisment clause that you refer too
[15:30] <zgreg> that clause was crap indeed
[15:30] <smw> Dagger2, how often does GPL really force something open?
[15:31] <smw> Dagger2, GPL restricts developers and where code can be used.
[15:32] <Dagger2> smw: yes, yes it does. it does so in order to guarantee that people who receive the code have their essential freedoms with respect to it
[15:32] <smw> Dagger2, of course, companies avoid it like a plague. So what extra freedoms do you get?
[15:32] <Dagger2> smw: (note that "people who receive the code" includes both developers and end users -- it includes everyone)
[15:32] <mchou> that's funny
[15:32] <smw> Dagger2, but how does that give people more freedom?
[15:32] <mchou> cause I have plenty of appliances devices that run linux
[15:33] <mchou> linksys router, my TV, tivo, list goes on
[15:33] <smw> Dagger2, how does requiring code be given give users more freedom?
[15:33] <smw> mchou, and?
[15:33] <mchou> my NAS
[15:33] <Dagger2> smw: anything I say in response to that is going to be arguable
[15:34] <mchou> my phone
[15:34] <mchou> my tablet
[15:34] <Dagger2> smw: but I'll ask you back. how does putting code under the BSD give me more freedom? there's BSD code in Windows, and nobody would argue I have any freedom with Windows at all
[15:34] <smw> Dagger2, the issue is that the GPL restricts where code can go, but does not make life freer.
[15:34] <mchou> yeah, gpl really put a crimp in those companies
[15:35] <smw> Dagger2, people just ignore it :-P
[15:35] <Dagger2> smw: if you want to give people freedom, you have to give people freedom. the GPL ensures that you do that, whereas BSD does not
[15:35] <smw> Dagger2, but if that BSD code was not in Windows, would it matter to you?
[15:35] <smw> Dagger2, the GPL would insure it would never go into windows
[15:36] <smw> Dagger2, and then Microsoft would have made their own version of the tcp/ip stack
[15:36] <smw> Dagger2, or whatever they use bsd code for
[15:36] <smw> Dagger2, how would this code not being there make things better?
[15:36] <zgreg> tcp/ip might not have ended up becoming as widespread with a copy-left license
[15:36] <Dagger2> smw: ok, here's the arguable part. it's possible that, instead of writing their own proprietry code, people would instead decide that it was easier to produce Free code
[15:37] <smw> haha
[15:37] <zgreg> Dagger2: what kind of world do you live in?
[15:37] <Dagger2> smw: now, ok, I guess in the case of Windows that MS is so entrenched in their sekrit code that they'd write their own code before doing something like that
[15:37] <zgreg> there will always be closed-source code, period.
[15:38] <ShiftPlusOne> Why are you guys so opinionated about this? Different developers have their own preferences, and whatever works for them is fine. In some cases one license is more suitable than another. But to say that GPL is too restrictive is just too much of a generalization.
[15:38] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne: right. but that "too restrictive" was an opinion of mine.
[15:38] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, an opinion on a specific license being too restrictive is not exactly a generalization
[15:38] <mchou> ShiftPlusOne: cause these people love stirring crap
[15:38] <rm> GPL was written by people who dream all software in the world should be FOSS
[15:38] <Dagger2> smw: but for smaller projects? this stuff happens. see all the router manufacturers who use Linux instead of writing their own OS
[15:38] <rm> if you don't agree with this premise, it's not surprising you may not like GPL
[15:39] <zgreg> it's definitely acceptable for certain projects, but for others not at all
[15:39] <smw> Dagger2, and? They still don't give out the source!
[15:39] <zgreg> smw: and if they do, it's usually in an unusuable form
[15:39] <Dagger2> smw: yeah, there will always be closed-source code. but there shouldn't be, and the GPL is how you make sure your own code doesn't end up closed-source down the line
[15:39] <smw> Dagger2, if they did not use Linux, they would do it some way else.
[15:40] <smw> Dagger2, why are you afraid of your code ending up in a closed-source product?
[15:40] <mchou> lol
[15:40] <smw> Please don't claim someone is "locking down your code" or "ending up closed source"
[15:40] <mchou> cause I want to be paid
[15:40] <smw> Dagger2, your code is still out there
[15:40] <Dagger2> smw: I want the people who use my code to have those essential freedoms I keep harping on about. if my code ends up in a closed-source, they *can't* have those freedoms, because the source is a prequisite to having them
[15:41] <smw> and it is still under the same license
[15:41] <mchou> if someone is making $$ without sharing they better pay me
[15:41] <zgreg> smw: no, they be stealin my codez!
[15:41] <jzu> yawn
[15:41] <smw> zgreg, oh noes!
[15:41] <jzu> RESISTANCE IS FUTILE
[15:41] <Dagger2> smw: and I do not want to aid someone in producing non-Free programs, because I don't want to do that to the eventual users of my software
[15:41] <jzu> YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED
[15:41] <mchou> yeah, that's called "conversion" and is another name for theft
[15:41] <zgreg> mchou: you can make $$ with code in many ways, and most aren't covered by the gpl
[15:41] <mchou> look it up
[15:42] <mchou> fully prosecutable under the law
[15:42] <smw> Dagger2, I guess that is the difference between us
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[15:43] <ShiftPlusOne> Dagger2, and that's a personal preference. So a certain license suits you more than another. Others might not care and are happy to throw their code out into public domain. In that case 'public domain' is "too restrictive" for you, because it restricts your right to tell how your code can be used.
[15:43] <smw> Dagger2, I would rather see good programs created, regardless of being open or closed.
[15:43] * johnthebear (~Johnthebe@13-164-111.client.wireless.msu.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:43] <Dagger2> as a general point, I absolutely don't mind someone making money off my code. the GPL isn't anti-profit, and if someone else instead of me manages to make the profit, then... well, whoops for me
[15:43] <smw> Dagger2, I figure that those who would share code with me will. And those who won't, won't
[15:44] <mchou> Dagger2: that's not what I meant
[15:44] <mchou> Dagger2: people can profit as long as they share code
[15:44] <mchou> if not then they better pay me
[15:44] <mchou> simple as that
[15:45] <smw> Dagger2, it is a philosophy that we will never agree on.
[15:45] <smw> Dagger2, and I really like the F U copyright :-)
[15:45] <Dagger2> I feel that end users having freedom is more important than more dollars for me (although I suppose if I was starving I might start compromising on that a bit... but the GPL doesn't necessarily lead to that conclusion, since it's still possible to make money even when your software is Free rather than proprietary)
[15:45] <zgreg> well, gpl laden is just full of politics and strong philosophy - that's probably part why I don't like it
[15:45] <smw> Dagger2, I publish my stuff under a BSD like license
[15:46] <zgreg> s/laden//
[15:46] <Dagger2> mchou: ok, well, just throwing that out there to handle the people thinking my issue is that I get butthurt if someone else makes money from it
[15:46] <mchou> Dagger2: that's essentially my point. If someone converts gpl code to proprietary they better pay
[15:46] <smw> zgreg, I like politics and strong philosophy
[15:46] <zgreg> permissive licenses focus on the practical aspects of open source
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[15:46] <smw> zgreg, I am just on the opposite side of gpl ;-)
[15:46] <smw> zgreg, that I agree on.
[15:47] <smw> Dagger2, and you damn gpl people keep stealing our code
[15:47] <smw> Dagger2, I would make a license that says "you may not link this to gpl code". But that would go against my philosophy
[15:47] <Dagger2> and I fully agree that everyone has full freedom to pick what licenses they use for themselves; I just want their choice to result in Free software (which happens to mean the GPL in practice)
[15:48] <smw> Dagger2, I would like an end to copyright. Problem solved and BSD wins :-D
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[15:48] <smw> (or MIT/ISC/whatever)
[15:48] <ShiftPlusOne> smw, but think of all the starving CEOs!
[15:49] * joukio (~joukio@82-171-18-219.ip.telfort.nl) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[15:49] <smw> I would use the creative commons zero license, but it is too damn long and complicated
[15:50] <Dagger2> an end to copyright wouldn't lead to Free software though. you need to be able to see and change the source code for it to be Free; no copyright just leads to no punishment for redistribution (which is part but not all of what Free software lets you do)
[15:50] <ShiftPlusOne> smw, if you'rec ompletly against copyright, why bother with a license? Why not just say it's public domain?
[15:50] <smw> I like my licenses to be so simple that anyone can read and understand them. This way, the license does not get in the way what matters. coding.
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[15:50] <Tachyon`> ahh, the site is back up
[15:51] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, because public domain is not accepted everywhere
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[15:51] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, not every country allows you to put your work in the public domain
[15:52] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, didn't know that. Why on earth would they not allow that?
[15:52] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, not to mention it means I get to attach my name to the source in a way people can't remove :-P
[15:52] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, no idea
[15:52] <zgreg> to protect copyright holders
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[15:53] <ShiftPlusOne> but... you would be the copyright holder.... you can't release other people's work into public domain....how would that even.... what?
[15:53] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, but on one project I have. I wrote that I was putting it in the public domain but if you did not like that answer, you could use the New BSD license
[15:53] <zgreg> e.g. so a company connect force you to transfer the copyright of your works
[15:53] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, what?
[15:53] <zgreg> s/connect/cannot/
[15:53] <ShiftPlusOne> smw, what zgreg said didn't make sense to me
[15:54] <smw> ah
[15:54] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne: let's replace copyright holder with author or producer
[15:54] <ShiftPlusOne> yup
[15:55] <Dagger2> smw: yeah, simplicity is definitely something. but again, keeping my software Free is more important to me than ease of understanding the license
[15:55] <Dagger2> (and I think the GPL is not too difficult to understand. the spirit of it is easy to grasp, and the actual wording just codifies that spirit. and it IS accessible to people without law degrees, although admittedly it does require a bit of effort/time investment to get through)
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[15:55] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, yeah, not every place has copyright the same way the US does
[15:55] <smw> Dagger2, and that gets in the way of the coding
[15:55] <zgreg> in germany, for instance, if you're the author of some work, you're the copyright holder, forever. you cannot transfer the copyright or distance yourself from it.
[15:55] <smw> Dagger2, being able to read and understand a license is important
[15:55] <smw> Dagger2, most people don't understand the GPL or even Apache licenses
[15:56] <smw> Dagger2, even people who use the GPL don't
[15:56] <rm> GPL is easy to understand
[15:56] <smw> Dagger2, I end up having to explain it to them
[15:56] <smw> rm, really?
[15:56] <rm> it even starts with a human readable intro to explain what's this stuff is about
[15:57] <ShiftPlusOne> zgreg, even if you were hired to author that work for someone else? Say you're a developer working for a company. Generally you don't own your code, you write it for the company. So in Germany, you would be the owner even if you write it for the company?
[15:57] <rm> unlike some other licenses which jump into legalese and definitions straight away
[15:57] <zgreg> it's easy to understand the basic idea of the gpl, but the intricacies are quite complex
[15:57] <zgreg> even more so in v3
[15:57] <smw> right, the ideas (preamble) is easy
[15:58] <smw> are*
[15:58] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne: yes
[15:58] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne: usually, you'll grant the company the right to use your work without any restrictions (e.g. you license it)
[15:59] <ShiftPlusOne> zgreg, ah makes sense
[15:59] <smw> rm, I know the GPL much better than most who use it. But I don't even think I know it completely
[15:59] <ShiftPlusOne> smw, that's law in general =/
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[16:00] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, do you think I know the BSD license better than you?
[16:00] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, or better than you would after taking 10 minutes to read it?
[16:00] <Dagger2> GPL is roughly "You may use this code, provided that anybody who ends up with it a) can get the source b) can give it to someone else." is the rough of it. the rest is closing all the loopholes people come up with to try and get around doing that
[16:00] <smw> lol, 10 minutes is a while
[16:00] <ShiftPlusOne> smw, when did I mention the BSD license or knowing much about it? O_o
[16:00] <Dagger2> (whoops, you can tell I edited that line there)
[16:01] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, I am saying that the BSD license is so simple you could read it and know as much as me about it
[16:01] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, no little details. It is a couple clauses
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[16:01] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, you said that happens with "law in general"
[16:02] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, I am saying it does not have to.
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[16:02] <ShiftPlusOne> smw, yeah, but if you study law you'll find that much of it is simple in spirit, yet complicated in details. I was just generalizing.
[16:02] <smw> Dagger2, I have run into many who ask if it is legal that someone is using the code in a BSD program.
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[16:03] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, yep
[16:04] <smw> Dagger2, and when you get into the LGPL, no one has a clue
[16:04] <smw> Dagger2, :-)
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[16:06] <smw> Dagger2, no matter our differences. This is one thing we can agree is wrong :-). http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/01/31/0022235/tenative-ruling-against-kaleidescape-in-dvd-cca-case
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[16:10] <Dagger2> smw: yeah, I'll grant you that
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[16:13] <ShiftPlusOne> Things which trigger a heated debate in #raspberrypi (so far): GPL, internet censorship.
[16:14] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, don't forget the closed source broadcom drivers
[16:14] <CuriosTiger> I think you can just say licensing in general
[16:14] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, and the fact that the broadcom dev tools are hidden
[16:15] <smw> err... not hidden. they are "not for us mere mortals"
[16:15] <ShiftPlusOne> I haven't actually seen anyone get worked up about it on the channel, just their wordpress articles.
[16:15] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, there was a heated debate earlier :-P
[16:15] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, must'be missed it
[16:16] <ShiftPlusOne> was someone actually saying raspberrypi is evil for using the chip?
[16:16] <smw> no
[16:16] <smw> just general frustration at the fact that it was not open
[16:16] <rm> broadcom is evil for being broadcom :)
[16:16] <smw> rm, very true
[16:17] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, I think we all share that frustration to some extent
[16:17] <smw> when trying to define evil, it is easier to just say broadcom
[16:17] <rm> hopefully more of this kind of product appears
[16:17] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, yes, I want to be able to play with the videocore :-(
[16:17] <rm> i.e. cheap but "full computer" boards
[16:18] <rm> and some of them will be more free (Allwinner?)
[16:18] <ShiftPlusOne> lol... allwinner.
[16:18] <rm> what's to lol about
[16:18] <rm> note I did not say Rhombus-tech :)
[16:19] <smw> ShiftPlusOne, imagine how awesome of an htpc this would be with more codecs? :-)
[16:19] * piofcube (~piofcube@piofcube.1billionhex.com) Quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
[16:19] <ShiftPlusOne> rm, ey, Rhombus-tech is legit!
[16:19] <rm> it's legit, buuuuuuuut
[16:19] <ShiftPlusOne> I should go to sleep before I start pissing people off
[16:20] <ShiftPlusOne> 'night
[16:20] <smw> night
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[16:20] <rm> somehow I doubt they will accomplish anything
[16:21] <smw> rm, what do you plan to do with your RP?
[16:22] <rm> an X terminal and/or (if I get two) a standalone desktop PC for web browsing
[16:22] * ghans (~ghans@dslb-092-078-121-125.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:22] <rm> and IM
[16:23] * PiBot (~Raspberry@c-24-147-35-37.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[16:24] <Caver> I'm hoping RDP in the form of rdesktop might work well on it
[16:25] <Caver> worlds cheapest remote terminal :)
[16:25] <rm> there are terminals for $40-50 now, in a case and with PSU
[16:26] <rm> but they run some crap like Windows CE and aren't interesting
[16:26] <Caver> that will run openvpn?!
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[16:28] * koaschten|pad (~wircer@31-16-0-231-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:28] <koaschten|pad> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Controversy-around-Busybox-alternative-1426119.html
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[16:32] <Caver> koaschten|pad, well I guess the answer to to that one, if convince one of the linux kernel dev's to let SFC use their copyright to make the case instead
[16:32] <Caver> the kernel isn't going to stop being GPL v2 for quite a while yet
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[16:34] <koaschten|pad> I wonder if manufacturers really think projects like dd-wrt are bad...
[16:34] * M0GHY (~peterholl@188.65.96.15) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[16:35] <Caver> well some of them make routers designed for it
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[16:35] <koaschten|pad> ... the last years i solely bought compatible devices
[16:35] * Caver pats his Buffalo WHR-HP-G300N
[16:37] <rm> dd-wrt is Dying(tm)
[16:37] * Dagger2 pats his WR703N, or would do if he could find the thing
[16:37] <rm> openwrt is where it's at
[16:37] <DaQatz> Caver, same router I have
[16:37] <rm> Dagger2, couple of online retailers
[16:37] <DaQatz> I have openwrt on it.
[16:37] <rm> it's not like it is Raspberry Pi
[16:37] <Dagger2> ... ok, it's not *that* small, but it's pretty small. basically the height (57mm) of an RPi, squared
[16:37] <rm> you can buy one (or many) today
[16:38] <Caver> lol
[16:39] <Caver> awww ... everyone wishing they were all out yesterday
[16:39] <Dagger2> rm: ah, I do have one; it finally arrived yesterday. came with openwrt too, although it has no IPv6 support so I'm stuck compiling it anyway
[16:39] <Dagger2> it's just so tiny
[16:39] <Dagger2> I could easily imagine losing it down the back of something
[16:39] <Caver> you ISP does IPv6?
[16:40] <rm> ha, I see
[16:40] <Dagger2> Caver: I use a tunnel
[16:40] <Caver> aha
[16:41] <Caver> this one purely bridges onto the LAN
[16:41] <Dagger2> well, technically I have an ISP that does IPv6. however that ISP delivers to me over L2TP, so it doesn't quite count :-)
[16:42] <Caver> lol no
[16:42] <Caver> ah well it's a step in the right direction
[16:42] <rm> hum, we have ISP(s) that deliver IPv4 over L2TP only
[16:42] <rm> oh, that's not quite correct
[16:43] <rm> L2TP or PPTP! :)
[16:43] <Dagger2> they do proper native service too, but it's over ADSL, which as I'm sure you've noticed sucks
[16:43] <rm> tbh I'd still use native
[16:44] <rm> even if it's over a tunnel from the ISP
[16:44] <rm> can it still be considered native then, probably yes :)
[16:45] * ahven (~ahven@jutukas.saarlane.ee) Quit (Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...)
[16:45] <Datum_Errata> IPv6 has security issues. It's subject to man in the middle attacks where ever it transitions from IPv6 to v4
[16:46] <Dagger2> I use an HE tunnel instead because I have to pay for traffic over the L2TP tunnel :-)
[16:46] <Dagger2> also, it means they don't both go down at once if the tunnel dies
[16:47] <Caver> a shockingly ontopic question ... does anyone know if dhcp servers give out the current time in their answer for a ip?
[16:47] <Datum_Errata> they can
[16:48] <Datum_Errata> Caver, it depends on the DHCP server settings, but it is an option
[16:48] <Dagger2> Datum_Errata: hm, isn't that basically true for v4 too when doing routing normally?
[16:48] <Caver> as most people at home don't have a ntp server running
[16:49] <Datum_Errata> Dagger2, not nearly as bad. The v6 to v4 is pretty much wide open
[16:50] <ukscone1> lol https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150503838475978&set=pu.238813510977&type=1&theater that's about in my price range and don't want to conform to racial sterotypes but the asda is in scotland :)
[16:50] * CuriosTiger pats his Apple Time Capsule.
[16:51] <Dagger2> Datum_Errata: as it is when routing v4-only too. but really, anything security issues involved in interfacing v4 and v6 come from the interface mechanism, because ipv6 itself doesn't interoperate with v4 at all
[16:51] * piofcube (~piofcube@piofcube.1billionhex.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:53] <Datum_Errata> Dagger2, I'm trying to find the link. It has to do with 6in4 tunnels. Since most the internets are still going to be on v4 there needs to be transisions.
[16:53] * victhor (~victhor@177.19.55.116) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[16:53] <Datum_Errata> Here we go: http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/vulnerabilities/229401525
[16:56] <Datum_Errata> I think there was a better (worse) way, too. I just woke up. I probably shouldn't try to talk until I have coffee
[16:57] <Caver> lol
[16:58] <Dagger2> Datum_Errata: ok, that attack looks like a rogue RA-based one. basically v4 suffers the same vulnerability with rogue DHCP servers, in that you can just install your own v4 default router
[16:58] <Caver> yup
[16:59] <DaQatz> !channel
[16:59] <PiBot> DaQatz: #raspberrypi #raspberrypi-dev #raspberrypi-bots
[16:59] <DaQatz> !w
[16:59] <PiBot> DaQatz: in Berwick, ME on Wed Feb 1 19:51:00 2012. Temp 29??F. Condition: Overcast, Humidity: 92%, Later 47??F - 27??F. Condition: Chance of Ice.
[16:59] <Datum_Errata> yeah, I agree. I don't think that's the thing I was looking for. It's similar. I dunno. I'll look again later.
[17:00] <Datum_Errata> coffee is calling me
[17:00] <DaQatz> !channel #raspberrypi-dev
[17:00] <PiBot> DaQatz: Unknown room.
[17:00] <DaQatz> !channel #raspberrypi-dev
[17:00] <PiBot> DaQatz: #raspberrypi-dev - Chat room for Raspberry PI development discussion.
[17:00] <DaQatz> No space handling...
[17:01] <Dagger2> Datum_Errata: well, rogue RAs *are* something you have to watch out for, but it's hardly an IPv6 problem when IPv4 suffers from a very similar issue
[17:01] <koaschten|pad> !w
[17:01] <DaQatz> koaschten|pad, you need a location.
[17:01] <DaQatz> !w New York, New York
[17:01] <PiBot> DaQatz: in New York, NY on Wed Feb 1 19:51:00 2012. Temp 52??F. Condition: Partly Cloudy, Humidity: 61%, Later 61??F - 34??F. Condition: Chance of Showers.
[17:01] <DaQatz> Oruse !weather_set loc <Loc>
[17:01] * stereohead is now known as stereohead-away
[17:01] <DaQatz> so you only need !w
[17:02] <koaschten|pad> its caching ...pfff
[17:02] <Caver> !w reading, berkshire
[17:02] <PiBot> Caver: in Berkshire, NY on Wed Feb 1 14:53:00 2012. Temp 46??F. Condition: Overcast, Humidity: 86%, Later 45??F - 25??F. Condition: Showers.
[17:02] <Caver> !w reading, UK
[17:02] <PiBot> Caver: in reading, UK on Wed Feb 1 15:20:00 2012. Temp 37??F. Condition: Clear, Humidity: 45%, Later 37??F - 27??F. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[17:02] <DaQatz> Caver, try !weater_set c
[17:02] <DaQatz> If you're uk side
[17:03] <Caver> !weather_set c
[17:03] <PiBot> Caver: You're now using celsius.
[17:03] <Caver> !w reading, UK
[17:03] <PiBot> Caver: in reading, UK on Wed Feb 1 15:20:00 2012. Temp 3??C. Condition: Clear, Humidity: 45%, Later 2??C - -2??C. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[17:03] <Caver> thats about right
[17:03] <Caver> ahah efff'ing cold
[17:03] <koaschten|pad> !w flensburg, germany
[17:03] <PiBot> koaschten|pad: in Flensburg, Schleswig-Holstein. Temp -1??C. Condition: Light snow, Humidity: 69%, Later 0??C - -5??C. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[17:04] <zgreg> people are getting worked up about closed-source drivers?
[17:04] <Caver> nope
[17:04] <koaschten|pad> zgreg stupid people are
[17:04] <DaQatz> Closed source drivers are annoying.
[17:04] <DaQatz> Put in a $25
[17:04] <zgreg> I mean it was pretty clear, from the very start, that drivers would be closed
[17:04] <DaQatz> item, don't whine.
[17:05] <DaQatz> zgreg, actually in the beginning they said the linux side drivers would be open.
[17:05] <zgreg> anything else than closed-source gpu drivers was just wishful thinking :)
[17:05] <DaQatz> And only the blob would be closed.
[17:05] <Caver> really?
[17:05] <Caver> got a link for that?
[17:05] <zgreg> DaQatz: yes, the kernel drivers are
[17:05] <DaQatz> Let me find it
[17:05] <zgreg> but that's not the interesting part
[17:06] * Edek (~Edek@5357E55B.cm-6-8d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:06] <zgreg> the kernel part is just memory management, command submission and the like
[17:07] * cosh (~cosh@gateway/tor-sasl/ryld) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6)
[17:07] <Caver> DaQatz, are you thinking perhaps of the much simpler original design that wasn't a broadcom chip?
[17:07] <DaQatz> No
[17:07] <traeak> DaQatz: as far as i know they never promised the userspace opengl to be opened up
[17:08] <traeak> DaQatz: that's why it's all been tied to linux all along
[17:08] <DaQatz> Promised? No mentioned yes.
[17:08] <traeak> DaQatz: the only thing open is the framebuffer api
[17:08] <traeak> i don't recall that mentioned either
[17:08] <traeak> maybe as a wish or something
[17:08] <DaQatz> Let me find the forum post
[17:08] <ReggieUK> got to say I have always been lead to believe that we would get access to functions but the code would not be open to us as such
[17:09] <zgreg> DaQatz: mentioned? as I said, wishful thinking
[17:09] <DaQatz> We was later "corrected" but they did say it
[17:09] <traeak> i was involved in more than a few of the otheros type forum threads
[17:09] <zgreg> DaQatz: e.g. they did mention that there was a *possibility* of this... yeah, one in a million :p
[17:10] <traeak> opengles for linux, open api hooks into the binary blob, but the userspace to make things happen? nope, only on linux
[17:10] <ReggieUK> :)
[17:10] <traeak> so it'd be nice to know what the interface to the blob looks like
[17:10] <traeak> the gpu blob i mean
[17:10] <traeak> or gpu firmware more like it
[17:10] <Caver> well a few more weeks and you can look to your hearts content
[17:11] <traeak> yup
[17:11] <zgreg> happy reverse engineering :)
[17:11] <traeak> perhaps we can leverage stuff like the mali driver work, etc
[17:11] * koaschten|pad (~wircer@31-16-0-231-dynip.superkabel.de) has left #raspberrypi
[17:11] <zgreg> traeak: not sure how that would help
[17:11] <ctyler> traeak: very different architectures
[17:11] <traeak> zgreg: for chatting with the binary blob that part of the kernel shouldbe provided as source
[17:11] <ctyler> it is
[17:12] <zgreg> traeak: hopefully without much obfuscation and magic numbers
[17:12] <traeak> opengl es commands need to be processes, repackaged, etc and fed to the blob
[17:12] <traeak> so basically yeah, reverse engineering efforts on the userspace gles <-> blob stuff
[17:12] <zgreg> the shader stuff will be the really hard part
[17:13] <traeak> maybe someone who's enterprising could emulate the kernel part into the blob and capture how certain opengles commands are repackaged before being issued
[17:13] <traeak> yeah, i'm still sort of stuck on fixed stuff
[17:13] <traeak> the extent of my GL screwing around involves point and vector
[17:13] <traeak> which funny enough modern gpus aren't really that good at
[17:14] * gabriel9 (~quassel@92.241.143.37) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[17:14] <rm> once I wrote a visualizer for Folding@home
[17:14] <rm> it used points and vectors to draw molecules :)
[17:15] <rm> that's how far I am into OpenGL, too
[17:15] <zgreg> well, if you just want to draw 2d sprites and background on screen, that's very easy with opengl es 1.1
[17:15] <rm> haven't tried anything since
[17:15] <traeak> i was trying to page through a few billion points
[17:15] <traeak> it's just easier to do that with the cpu, much easier to code it up than to work around the gpu limitations
[17:15] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[17:16] <zgreg> there's a very nice extension in ES 1.1 exactly for accelerating 2D stuff
[17:16] <zgreg> OES_draw_texture
[17:16] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:16] <traeak> which gpus are geared towards...painting textures, fill rates, etc
[17:17] * ghans (~ghans@dslb-092-078-121-125.pools.arcor-ip.net) has left #raspberrypi
[17:17] <zgreg> yes and no... fillrate and rasterizer performance doesn't matter so much anymore
[17:18] <rm> the weirdest part about opengl, is if I remember correctly, you don't get to draw stuff "somewhere"
[17:18] <rm> it's always drawn in the center
[17:18] * ShiftPlusOne (~Shift@203-214-39-33.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[17:18] <zgreg> but my point is, you can very easily do 2d stuff on the gpu, which is important on the rpi
[17:18] <rm> and in order to have it placed where you want, you need to move and rotate the world around you
[17:18] <zgreg> the cpu is just to fracking slow for any serious computation
[17:18] <zgreg> *too
[17:19] <zgreg> and that's why it is kind of a disaster that there isn't any accelerated X.org driver in sight
[17:20] <Caver> isn't there a openGL type driver around?
[17:20] <zgreg> not exactly around from what I've heard and seen
[17:21] <zgreg> there's an opengl-based ddx available, but it's stll quite early in development I think, and this isn't compatible with opengl es
[17:22] * [SySteM] (~antoine@195.214.230.1) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:22] <[SySteM]> Hello
[17:22] <RaTTuS|BIG> no not yet still in china
[17:22] <[SySteM]> Is it possible to make a mount ssh (sshfs) on a raspberrypi board ?
[17:22] <zgreg> [SySteM]: sure
[17:22] <Caver> [SySteM], yes
[17:22] <[SySteM]> thx :)
[17:22] <[SySteM]> And do you have a release date ?
[17:23] <zgreg> an simple X.org DDX that accelerates simple blits shouldn't be that hard to implement, I guess
[17:23] <zgreg> s/an/a/
[17:23] <rm> hopefully before the apocalypse
[17:23] <Caver> [SySteM], no release date yet
[17:24] <[SySteM]> ok.
[17:24] <[SySteM]> I hope soon
[17:24] <RaTTuS|BIG> we al do but they are still in china
[17:25] <Caver> well it's been released to manufacture ... exactly how long that will take isn't known, but should be sooner than later
[17:25] <[SySteM]> days ? month ?
[17:26] <Caver> don't know ... you'll just have to wait
[17:26] <[SySteM]> ok :)
[17:26] <[SySteM]> thanks
[17:26] <Caver> week's I'd imagine, but ...
[17:26] <RaTTuS|BIG> https://twitter.com/#!/Raspberry_Pi
[17:26] <Caver> if they have a screw up ...
[17:26] <RaTTuS|BIG> see that
[17:26] <RaTTuS|BIG> but I say 2 weeks 3 days 17hrs and a few mins
[17:27] <DaQatz> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/which-soc-datasheets-schematics-gpios-open-drivers/#p2213
[17:27] <DaQatz> Found it
[17:27] <[SySteM]> how it is possible to be so competitive ?
[17:28] <DaQatz> Or one of them.
[17:29] <Caver> ah well I read that quite differently
[17:30] <Caver> he's saying its open enough for the purposes of the foundation - which it is
[17:31] <Caver> I think people will always read things how they'd like them to be, and sometimes the real answer is slightly not what they wanted
[17:31] <Caver> for the price it's still IMHO a fantastically useful product
[17:36] <Caver> [SySteM], do you mean on price?
[17:36] * ghans (~ghans@dslb-092-078-121-125.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:36] <[SySteM]> yes
[17:36] <Caver> one of the guys works for Broadcom, and managed to talk him into selling the SoC at a good price I believe
[17:38] <zgreg> it'll be released before the rhombus allwinner board, that's for sure
[17:39] <RaTTuS|BIG> s/one/several/ for the foudation
[17:41] <Caver> true ... I was simplifying ..
[17:46] * M0GHY (~peterholl@188.65.96.15) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:49] * atts (~asheehan@static-99-136-171-68.axsne.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:50] * [SySteM] (~antoine@195.214.230.1) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:50] * CustomTronics (~mjtessmer@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:58] * M0GHY (~peterholl@188.65.96.15) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[18:01] <RaTTuS|BIG> 214 users togo
[18:02] * ghans (~ghans@dslb-092-078-121-125.pools.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Quit: bye)
[18:02] * TonyHoyle (~TonyHoyle@82.144.254.130) Quit (Quit: Curse you Perry the Platypus!)
[18:05] <Caver> I'm only reporting 160 here ...
[18:05] <Caver> and a op
[18:07] * CustomTronics (~mjtessmer@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[18:09] * diplo (~diplo@cpc1-trow1-0-0-cust13.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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[18:36] * Edek (~Edek@5357E55B.cm-6-8d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has left #raspberrypi
[18:40] * UnderSampled|tab (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-028.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:40] <acfrazier> I'm curious how feasible it would be to replace my desktop computer with one of these
[18:41] <acfrazier> I don't really run that many intensive applications
[18:41] <haltdef> no flash, modern browsers might struggle with so little ram
[18:41] <acfrazier> true, it'd probably swap a lot
[18:41] <Caver> less fun that you might imagine ... think android phone speed, but without flash
[18:42] * jluisn (~quassel@187.115.172.24) Quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
[18:42] <acfrazier> granted I've managed to get a full desktop system in 368MB of memory (and that was with Windows, too)
[18:42] <acfrazier> on a pentium 3
[18:42] <acfrazier> at.. 600MHz
[18:42] * jluisn (~quassel@187.115.172.24) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:43] <Caver> in theory arm binary's are a bit more memory efficent - how true that is, we'll see!
[18:43] <acfrazier> using modern software like chromium
[18:43] <acfrazier> yeah
[18:43] <acfrazier> I'll probably have to do a lot of cross-compilation though
[18:43] <Caver> remember though you have a much faster hard disk, than you do storage wise using SD cards
[18:43] <acfrazier> so I'll need my desktop every once and a while
[18:44] <Caver> well ... you might be able to get rdesktop to connect RDP to a windows box, or ... what ever the linux equiv is, if you run linux on your desktop
[18:44] <Caver> FreeNX etc
[18:44] <Dagger2> also the P3-600 MHz is probably faster than the RPi
[18:44] <Dagger2> (though it scores a bit worse on the performance per watt metric, of course)
[18:45] * IT_Sean (~cdi-1fors@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:45] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[18:47] <mchou> acfrazier: forget it. it's not a desktop replacement
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[19:02] * rodrigo_golive (quassel@gateway/indt/session) Quit ()
[19:02] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-24-14-224-41.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[19:23] <traeak> "Any distribution will need to supply a set of closed source libraries that give access to the GPU acceleration features"
[19:23] <traeak> from the front page
[19:23] <traeak> so basically that's "the word"
[19:23] * imnichol (~ian@wifi-gld-kry-wat-138-90.winona.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:24] <Caver> yup
[19:24] <Caver> I guess you might get text only mode or a frame buffer with out, but don't bet on it
[19:25] <traeak> apparently the framebuffer stuff is definitely available
[19:25] <Caver> yup
[19:25] <traeak> but frame buffers are pretty much just handing a properly formatted buffer
[19:25] <traeak> probably not even vesa type stuff and probably not text only even
[19:25] <traeak> i woudl be shocked if that's available
[19:26] * spooky (~conner@lawn-128-61-117-226.lawn.gatech.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:26] <spooky> would it be possible to make a product using the pi, and sell it on an on-demand basis? or would the costs be too high? or is that too subjective of a question
[19:26] <traeak> definitely can't wait to see how well the mali open drivers compare with the closed source ones
[19:27] * MystX (~MystX@ec2-107-21-100-215.compute-1.amazonaws.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:27] <traeak> spooky: the rpi will be available
[19:27] <MystX> is it out yet?
[19:27] * PiBot slaps MystX across the face with a cast iron pan.
[19:27] <Caver> spooky, what do you mean?
[19:27] <traeak> it's all up to you to make that model happen
[19:27] <Caver> oh god ... who let the bots back in
[19:27] <traeak> who let the bots out?
[19:28] <traeak> !w
[19:28] <PiBot> traeak: in Parker, CO on Wed Feb 1 12:53:00 2012. Temp 7??C. Condition: Clear, Humidity: 22%, Later 7??C - -2??C. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[19:28] <Edek> Is the raspberrypi going to be released early or late february?
[19:28] <spooky> Caver: i ask in a practical way, would it be stupid to have the raspberry pi being the "base" of a product?
[19:28] <Caver> spooky, later on once the initial rush has died down - no reason why not
[19:29] <haltdef> I'm hopeful for early feb
[19:29] <Caver> Edek, no one really knows
[19:29] <haltdef> no official dates have been given though
[19:29] <Edek> ok
[19:29] <spooky> Caver: "later on" <= due to the initial lack of being able to buy a large supply?
[19:29] <haltdef> I'd imagine never will be, one day we'll all get the email saying "they're out" :P
[19:29] <spooky> Also, I seem to be having trouble with articulation -- I feel like I'm typing as if English isn't my first language :P
[19:29] <Caver> spooky, the 1st batch are going to be one per person/address
[19:30] <spooky> Caver: Ahhh
[19:30] <Caver> which is 10,000 units
[19:30] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-24-14-224-41.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[19:30] <Caver> but they do want to sell lots, so further batches will be made, and no limits on how many you can order
[19:30] <spooky> awesome
[19:30] <traeak> for smallish volumes you shoudl be good to go
[19:31] <traeak> basically it'll be in your interest to see how fast the rpi's go
[19:31] <spooky> i.e. in my example, i'm hoping to make a MIDI\OSC controller and perhaps sell them on demand
[19:31] <Edek> I bet we will get an email at 2:33 AM saying that they are out. The next day everyone wakes up having found out that theyre sold out ;)
[19:31] <traeak> get an idea of what the production flow will be
[19:31] <traeak> gaps in availability, etc
[19:31] <spooky> right
[19:31] <traeak> if they crank out a batch every month copmared with every 6 months
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder if there will be discounts - maybe small ones - for 100 say.
[19:31] <traeak> doubtful
[19:32] <traeak> maybe shipping discount
[19:32] <traeak> it's not a product based on profit
[19:32] <traeak> margins are thin
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> I mean solely to the costs.
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> costs+normal profit
[19:33] <traeak> and it would be nice if they had enough extra $$ to more smoothly develop rpi2.0
[19:33] <Edek> they made very clear that there were going to be no discounts
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> if they want to actually sell lots
[19:33] <traeak> Edek: which only leaves possible savings on single large shipments
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> Large shipments save money in many ways.
[19:34] <Edek> of over 1000 units
[19:34] <traeak> and perhaps if the mass buyer does the QC themselves
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> That raises other thorny issues though
[19:35] <traeak> hardware == fixed cost, labor is variable there as well i guess
[19:35] * Faperdaper (~Faperdape@dhcp-077-250-027-109.chello.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:35] <traeak> yup and since right now rpi is still effectively vapor
[19:35] <traeak> it's probably not worth speculating about
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> It's showing strong signs of condensing.
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> Have there been reports on tests of the next batch yet?
[19:36] <Edek> I have already started buying stuff for my pi and planning a case
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> I guess that's the next milestone.
[19:36] <traeak> i have all the pieces i think i need
[19:36] <traeak> but
[19:37] <traeak> definitely i dunno what to do about a case
[19:37] <traeak> something that costs at most $5
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> On a related matter - has anyone used a ipad touchscreen?
[19:37] <traeak> would be preferred
[19:37] <traeak> i have android stuff, not iTard :-p
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> Without the ipad
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> I meant
[19:37] <Edek> first i will put it in a lurpak, then i will put it in an awesome needle tin
[19:38] <Caver> oh ... nope ... how come you've got a spare?
[19:38] <traeak> sell it on fleabay :-p
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> You get spares from ebay and places
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering about integrating
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> pi+ipad screen
[19:39] <Edek> it would be a pain in the ass to write the drivers and connect it properly
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> I should probably read up on the touch panel protocol
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes
[19:39] <traeak> connection definitely a PITA
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Screen is 'easy'.
[19:39] <feep> PITA?
[19:39] <feep> Isn't that a new copyright act?
[19:39] <traeak> pain in the arse
[19:40] <Edek> pipa
[19:40] <feep> (yes it was joke)
[19:40] <Edek> and sopa
[19:40] <traeak> heh
[19:40] <Caver> kinda like the alien abduction thing, but with out google maps
[19:40] <traeak> People Eating Tasty Animals ?
[19:41] <Henchman21> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_IP_Act
[19:41] <Edek> Pita isn't Terribly Awkward
[19:41] <Henchman21> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOPA Stop Online Piracy Act
[19:42] <Edek> thank god they stopped it in congress
[19:42] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-24-14-224-41.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:42] <Henchman21> i heard it would even encompass news articles, so if i put a quote on raspberrypi's forum about the raspberry pi on say CNN they could/might take down raspberry pi.org
[19:43] <Edek> all newspapers: raspberrypi scandal-the founders were caught putting a link to a website with a reference to happy birthday- the police says there is a jail sentence of 5 years on that
[19:43] <Caver> well it's stopped at least for now
[19:43] <Henchman21> i didnt hear anything about stopping it, they "shelved" it to probably bring it out when no one is looking
[19:44] <Edek> happy birthday still is copyrighted
[19:44] <Caver> the phrase isn't the song is
[19:44] <Caver> so a clip of someone singing it would be a problem
[19:44] <Henchman21> like how obama signed the NDA bill on new years while everyone was partying
[19:44] <Edek> i meant the song
[19:45] <Edek> he was forced to
[19:45] <Edek> otherwise they would have to right a new bill, which would take months
[19:45] <Edek> meanwhile the army would be waiting for money
[19:45] * matt__ (~matt@dhcp-140-247-114-117.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:47] <Henchman21> they should've written a new bill cause saying the president can jail citizens without proof or due proccess is nazi-ish
[19:47] <Caver> *ahem*
[19:47] <Caver> techie channel, not politics
[19:47] <MystX> wGAH
[19:48] <Henchman21> more like a waiting channel till they ship
[19:48] <MystX> What dont people get about 'i dont mind having porn on my lounge wall'?
[19:48] <Edek> but the army wouldn't have any money for months-a disaster
[19:48] <Edek> lol
[19:48] <feep> Caver: you wish
[19:48] <feep> Caver: acta is still on
[19:48] <Henchman21> they're tough they can eat ramen for a month
[19:48] <MystX> Poeple keep posting solutions to this 'problem'
[19:49] <Caver> I really don't wish
[19:52] <Edek> crap i accidently posted my comment on a different irc channel ;)
[19:52] <Edek> embarassing
[19:52] * xlq (~apropos@89-168-179-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:52] <Caver> oops
[19:52] <Edek> lol
[19:54] * imnichol (~ian@wifi-gld-kry-wat-138-90.winona.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[19:55] <Edek> are you going to use as a case for the rpi
[19:56] <Caver> Lego initally !
[19:56] <Edek> cool
[19:56] <Edek> the design on the forum?
[19:56] * imnichol (~ian@somsen-128-109.winona.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:56] <Edek> or your own?
[19:56] <rm> square box from ramen
[19:56] <Caver> but hope to be making a reprap later on in the year, so I can imagine making all sorts of cases with different types of mountings
[19:56] <rm> you can even fit an usb hub inside
[19:57] <Edek> awesome, send me one too ;)
[19:57] <Edek> maybe i might figure out how to put it in my keyboard
[19:57] <Edek> that would be cool
[19:57] <Edek> with a hub
[19:57] <Edek> and integrated mouse
[19:57] <Caver> yeah ... thats the fun bit you can design to piggy back on / into all sorts of devices
[19:58] <Caver> e.g. one for a in car device
[19:58] <tntexplosivesltd> Edek: what kinda keyboard?
[19:58] * spooky (~conner@lawn-128-61-117-226.lawn.gatech.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[19:58] <Edek> A logitech one
[19:58] <Edek> any old one
[19:58] <tntexplosivesltd> you'd need a kinda tall one
[19:58] <Edek> i don't really care as long as it fita
[19:58] <Edek> fits
[19:58] <Edek> ok
[19:59] <tntexplosivesltd> (well one that fits 2 USB ports stacked)
[20:01] * Caver (~Caver@nat1.nipltd.com) Quit (Quit: g'night all)
[20:01] <Edek> it would be awesome to play minecraft on a pi. too bad it isn't powerful enough
[20:02] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[20:02] <Edek> lets start a huge multi-million dollar project to rewrite it in C ;)
[20:02] * spooky (~conner@lawn-128-61-117-226.lawn.gatech.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:02] <Edek> i bet it would be faster
[20:02] <tntexplosivesltd> that wouldn't help
[20:03] <Tobias|> It's not that Java is slow
[20:03] <Edek> why?
[20:03] <Tobias|> it's that minecraft is slow
[20:03] <Tobias|> Minecraft's terribly inefficient
[20:03] <Edek> not if you rewrite it ;)
[20:03] <MystX> Well, java too
[20:03] <tntexplosivesltd> the problem is that the blocks take a lot of RAM
[20:03] <Edek> yeah...
[20:03] <Tobias|> Not much tntexplosivesltd
[20:04] <tntexplosivesltd> Tobias|: yes...
[20:04] <Tobias|> No
[20:04] <Edek> connect the pi with infiniband to a huge supercomputer
[20:04] <Edek> ;)
[20:04] <tntexplosivesltd> if you want to see around yoy a decent amount
[20:04] <tntexplosivesltd> * you
[20:04] <MystX> The blocks take up 2 bytes per block from memory
[20:04] <MystX> See what i did there
[20:04] <Edek> you load the 3 chunks around you
[20:05] <Edek> sorry, 9
[20:05] <tntexplosivesltd> as we found with our block engine, you need a reasonable amount of RAM
[20:05] <Edek> a chunk is 16*16*16
[20:05] <Tobias|> A chunk is 16x16x128
[20:05] <xlq> I thought ... yeah
[20:05] <Edek> oh, thanks
[20:05] <Tobias|> Another inefficiency
[20:06] <xlq> One of the problems is that all the blocks - even ones that'd take quite a lot of digging to uncover - are loaded.
[20:06] <Edek> my calculations tell me it would only be 5 kb
[20:06] <MystX> Same
[20:06] <Edek> 16 * 16 * 128 * 2 * 9 = 589 824
[20:06] <MystX> 500kb*
[20:06] <Edek> th500 kb
[20:07] <tntexplosivesltd> 576
[20:07] <tntexplosivesltd> kb
[20:07] <Edek> there must be something terribly wrong with minecraft
[20:07] <tntexplosivesltd> it needs some efficient way of "streaming" blocks into the level
[20:07] <Tobias|> That amount of blocks takes a lot of processing power, Edek
[20:07] <xlq> [19:06] <Edek> there must be something terribly wrong with minecraft
[20:07] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: 500k isnt 'a lot' or ram
[20:07] <xlq> The sort of bugs Minecraft has and has had would also suggest that, Edek ;)
[20:07] <MystX> of ram*
[20:08] <Tobias|> Write a simple game of life script and run it at that size
[20:08] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: we were working with more chunks
[20:08] <Edek> and java, of course
[20:08] <Edek> the rpi is 700 mhz
[20:08] <tntexplosivesltd> Edek: it's because Notch wrote it
[20:08] <tntexplosivesltd> he's a retard
[20:08] <Tobias|> bollocks
[20:08] <MystX> Tobias|: my game of life game is lightning fast
[20:08] <MystX> =D
[20:08] <Edek> there would be 1400 clock cycles per byte of memory
[20:08] <tntexplosivesltd> what?
[20:09] <tntexplosivesltd> that doesn't make sense
[20:09] <tntexplosivesltd> at all
[20:09] <Edek> that calc doesn't help you at all
[20:09] <MystX> Oh good
[20:09] <MystX> Now someone thinks that netframe is going to get me put in jail?
[20:09] <tntexplosivesltd> ...
[20:09] <MystX> What is wrong with people?
[20:09] <Edek> but it indicates that there would be a high processor-to-memory ratio
[20:10] <tntexplosivesltd> Edek: that doesn't make any sense whatsoever
[20:10] <Edek> oh, ok then
[20:10] <tntexplosivesltd> the two can't really be compared like that
[20:11] <Edek> how many million instructions per second (MIPS) would the rpi have?
[20:12] <tntexplosivesltd> no idea atm
[20:12] <haltdef> clock*1.2 isn't it
[20:13] <Edek> no, the mips is lower than the clock, isn't it?
[20:13] <tntexplosivesltd> depends on heaps of things, that may be a general rule-of-thumb
[20:13] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't see it being > the clock though
[20:13] <tntexplosivesltd> it's kinda physically impossible
[20:14] <Edek> ARM11 515 MIPS at 412 MHz says wikipedia
[20:14] <Edek> apparently it's true
[20:14] <Edek> and a pentium @100 mhz is 188 MIPS
[20:15] <tntexplosivesltd> 700*1.2 != 412
[20:15] <MystX> Read what he said, tnt
[20:16] <tntexplosivesltd> which line?
[20:16] <Edek> 412 MHz and 515 MIPS for an arm 11 proccessor
[20:16] * imnichol (~ian@somsen-128-109.winona.edu) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:16] <MystX> ^^
[20:16] <tntexplosivesltd> oh, that came out as garbage on my end
[20:16] <Edek> lol
[20:16] <tntexplosivesltd> but yes I see
[20:18] <MystX> Apparently, a net-sourced photoframe is a really hard idea for people to get their heads around
[20:18] * spooky (~conner@lawn-128-61-117-226.lawn.gatech.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[20:18] <tntexplosivesltd> can someone tell me how can MIPS be greater than clock speed
[20:19] <MystX> No, i dont want to filter it. No, i dont want people to be able to comment/vote on pictures
[20:19] <tntexplosivesltd> inless I have the units wrong in my pre-coffee head
[20:19] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: like DSPs do it?
[20:19] <tntexplosivesltd> * unless
[20:19] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: go on...
[20:19] <MystX> Staggerewd instructions
[20:19] <tntexplosivesltd> oh
[20:19] <tntexplosivesltd> OH
[20:19] <MystX> We learned this
[20:19] <tntexplosivesltd> I see
[20:19] <tntexplosivesltd> that was ages ago man
[20:19] <MystX> ???_???
[20:20] <MystX> Oh man now liz is involved
[20:20] * imnichol (~ian@somsen-128-109.winona.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:20] <Edek> The Basic-more harmful than useful thread has turned into a Assembly v the rest warzone
[20:20] * qw- (~qw@host-92-7-80-126.as43234.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:20] <Edek> assembly is far too hard for kids
[20:20] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[20:21] <tntexplosivesltd> exactly
[20:21] <tntexplosivesltd> it's not a learning language
[20:21] <Edek> now move the value in the $A register to $AH
[20:21] <Edek> or something
[20:21] <tntexplosivesltd> in effect =D
[20:22] <MystX> Im undecided as to whether kids should start out with something like C#, or C++/C
[20:22] <Edek> iif you repeat that 15000 times you can write a greeting program!
[20:22] <Edek> awesome
[20:22] <Edek> agreed on C++
[20:22] <Edek> my first proper language
[20:22] <MystX> JIT languages like C# are NOT too hard for kids. I started with it
[20:22] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: coffee. Please.
[20:22] <MystX> Need it now
[20:23] <tntexplosivesltd> yes
[20:23] <tntexplosivesltd> same
[20:23] <Edek> all C languages are relatively easy to use, but hard to completely master
[20:23] <Edek> in my experience
[20:23] <Tobias|> o_o'
[20:23] <Tobias|> Did you just call C# a C language?
[20:24] <Edek> it is derived from C isn't it?
[20:24] <Tobias|> I could say the same about PHP and Java
[20:25] <Edek> Java is almost a complete copy of C
[20:25] <Edek> syntax is pretty much the same
[20:25] * schigndix (~schigndix@89.204.139.229) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:26] <Tobias|> The languages look mildly similar if you peer at them from afar
[20:26] <Tobias|> Both are fundamentally different
[20:26] <Edek> i have never programmed java so i can't tell
[20:27] <Tobias|> written* java
[20:27] * spooky (~conner@lawn-128-61-117-226.lawn.gatech.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:28] <SphericalCow> MystX I think C# is way better for kids than C/C++
[20:28] <Edek> pointers can get quite irritating
[20:28] * IT_Sean (~cdi-1fors@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi
[20:29] <Edek> but C# is only for windows
[20:29] <Edek> what about python?
[20:29] <SphericalCow> C# is not only for Windows
[20:29] <Tobias|> ^
[20:29] <SphericalCow> Mono works great on Mac and Linux
[20:29] <Tobias|> Though I don't like it because of how windows-centric it is
[20:29] <Tobias|> At least as a learning language
[20:30] <Edek> mono isn't used by far as much on linux than on windows
[20:30] <FireFly> Edek, Java and C are similar in syntax. That's pretty much it
[20:30] <SphericalCow> Edek: okay, but it's available and it works
[20:30] <FireFly> In almost every other sense, they're quite different
[20:30] <Edek> ok
[20:31] <Tobias|> Java is more like C# than anything else I've touched so far
[20:31] <FireFly> C# is object-oriented, runs in a VM, and so on
[20:31] <FireFly> Tobias|, yeah, Java and C# are very similar
[20:33] * schigndix (~schigndix@89.204.139.229) Quit (Quit: Bye)
[20:33] <Edek> Assembly classes for 11 year olds; kids run screaming out of classes
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> I learned Z80 asm at 11
[20:34] <Edek> cool
[20:34] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:36] <Edek> i gtg
[20:36] * Edek (~Edek@5357E55B.cm-6-8d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[20:39] * krake (~krake@pC19F7E14.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:40] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: kthxbai)
[20:41] * mrdragons (~lucas@175.45.25.92) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:44] <rm> <Tobias|> Java is more like C# than anything else I've touched so far
[20:44] <rm> you do realise that Java predates C# by at least 10 years
[20:44] <Tobias|> mm, and?
[20:44] <rm> and that C# was "heavily influenced" (putting it mildly :) by Java
[20:44] <Tobias|> Did I say anything to the converse?
[20:44] <rm> point is, it's not Java that is "like C#", it's the other way round :)
[20:45] <tntexplosivesltd> exactly
[20:45] <xlq> is-like is commutative.
[20:45] <Tobias|> ^
[20:46] <MystX> ^^good point about the C#/windows
[20:46] <Tobias|> which point was that?
[20:47] <MystX> C# is windows only
[20:47] <SphericalCow> but it isn't
[20:48] <Tobias|> ^
[20:48] <Tobias|> We went through this like.. 20 minutes ago
[20:48] <MystX> Well, there's mono
[20:48] <Tobias|> Right
[20:48] <tntexplosivesltd> mono actually works pretty well
[20:48] <MystX> But thats like saying steam is cross-platform because of wine
[20:48] <Tobias|> No it's not
[20:48] <SphericalCow> as just one example, dozens of top 10 iPhone games were written in C#
[20:49] <tntexplosivesltd> SphericalCow: link?
[20:49] <SphericalCow> tntexplosivesltd, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28game_engine%29 http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/65053-iPhone-games-chart-best-games-made-with-Unity
[20:49] <MystX> Can you compile c# for native linux use?
[20:49] <SphericalCow> Unity 3D engine uses Mono as a scripting engine
[20:50] <SphericalCow> MystX: .NET assemblies are cross-platform, like Java bytecode
[20:50] <tntexplosivesltd> SphericalCow: interesting
[20:50] <Tobias|> Can you compile java for native windows use? Can you compile java for native linux use? MystX?
[20:50] <SphericalCow> and there's the mono AOT compiler to create native binaries
[20:51] <MystX> SphericalCow: they're not cross platform. Their ONLY platform is the .NET runtime
[20:51] <tntexplosivesltd> SphericalCowjava byte code is in no way cross-platform
[20:51] <MystX> For R-Pi use, C++ might be your best bet
[20:51] <tntexplosivesltd> java bytecode can ONLY run in a Java VM
[20:51] <MystX> Then kids can compile their stuff on a PC too if they want
[20:51] <Tobias|> Right, tntexplosivesltd
[20:51] <SphericalCow> okay but now you're picking on semantics. The objective is to run on any "platform" (different CPU architectures, operating systems) and this can be achieved with Mono
[20:51] <Tobias|> And how many java VMs are there?
[20:52] <tntexplosivesltd> the VM is cross-platform though
[20:52] <Tobias|> The VMs being cross platform themselves too
[20:52] <tntexplosivesltd> ninja'd
[20:52] <mrdragons> In pretty much every computer today
[20:52] <Tobias|> Why suddenly C++, MystX?
[20:52] <MystX> Because it's native
[20:52] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[20:52] <Tobias|> So is java
[20:52] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[20:52] <mrdragons> No it's not...?
[20:52] <tntexplosivesltd> NO IT ISN'T
[20:52] <ctyler> Java ain't native
[20:52] <MystX> Its native to the ARM SoC*
[20:52] <ctyler> No it's not
[20:53] <tntexplosivesltd> ctyler: C++ is
[20:53] <tntexplosivesltd> that's what he is saying
[20:53] <ctyler> Ah
[20:53] <MystX> ^yes
[20:53] <MystX> Java is native to its VM. Which is not really the same
[20:54] <Tobias|> The VM being native on the arm
[20:54] <tntexplosivesltd> and will the VM run on the R-Pi?
[20:54] <Tobias|> Java? On an ARM device?
[20:54] <mrdragons> Java is purposefully meant to be really portable; arguing nativity of java isn't going to get anywhere
[20:54] <Tobias|> Like that'll ever happen
[20:54] <Tobias|> Not like Android practically lives by java or anything
[20:54] <xlq> We should do a nativity play to celebrate compilers.
[20:55] <tntexplosivesltd> Tobias|: well, not really
[20:55] <mrdragons> :D
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> There are native java processors.
[20:55] <ctyler> Some ARM chips have Jazelle to speed JVMs but it's rarely used.
[20:55] <MystX> Tobias|: I would like to teach kids something that doesnt rely on a VM. Something where they can compile it to run on the ARM or their PC natively. With nothing else.
[20:56] <MystX> That was what i was trying to get across
[20:56] <SphericalCow> Why does it matter if the kids are running their code natively or not?
[20:56] <Tobias|> So you want to teach them how to write operating systems, MystX?
[20:56] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[20:56] <ReggieUK> should have a J in teh chip number Id to tell you whether it's got jazzelle on board
[20:56] <MystX> .. OR, we could all act like 12 year olds and dismiss each others arguments with hyperboles
[20:56] <tntexplosivesltd> Tobias|: what are you talking about...
[20:57] <MystX> Its really up to you
[20:57] <Tobias|> He wants them to be able to run their software 'With nothing else.'
[20:57] <Tobias|> :<
[20:57] <ReggieUK> +1 for hyperboles
[20:57] * amazoph (~nyan@nyan.li) has left #raspberrypi
[20:57] <ReggieUK> cos they sound better than superboles
[20:57] <tntexplosivesltd> Tobias|: like C and C++ programs...
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> My hyperbole could punch your hyperbole!
[20:57] <tntexplosivesltd> they don't need a "man in the middle"
[20:57] <Tobias|> I know precisely what he was saying tntexplosivesltd
[20:58] <MystX> But chose to interpret is differently to prova a point?
[20:58] <mrdragons> What happened to the chatroom recently? It's been almost nothing but horribly-reasoned debated
[20:58] <mrdragons> debates*
[20:58] <MystX> mrdragons: I know right
[20:58] <ReggieUK> my hyperbole would crush your hyperbole
[20:58] <Tobias|> I think the notion of wanting people to run a language based upon there not existing an abstraction which they will neither see nor particularly care about is absurd
[20:58] <Tobias|> s/run/use
[20:58] <MystX> But they SHOULD know about it
[20:58] * ReggieUK cries, either no one got his superboles joke (ignorant gits) or it just wasn't funny :(
[20:58] <Tobias|> At least, assuming they're learning their first language anyway
[20:59] <tntexplosivesltd> Tobias|: every Java programmer I have met sucks at anything else
[20:59] <Tobias|> Yes, MystX, but as an introduction to programming, MystX?
[20:59] <MystX> Why not start out on the right track?
[20:59] <tntexplosivesltd> if that's the only lang they know
[20:59] <Tobias|> If it's the only language they know I don't expect them to know others
[21:00] <Tobias|> Why would they not suck with others .. if they don't know others?
[21:00] <tntexplosivesltd> Tobias|: no, they suck at programming in general
[21:00] <Tobias|> Your logic is circular
[21:00] * spooky (~conner@lawn-128-61-117-226.lawn.gatech.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[21:00] <tntexplosivesltd> it isn't though
[21:00] <mrdragons> I dunno, linus trovalds sucks at html
[21:00] <Tobias|> "every Java programmer I have met sucks at anything else if that's the only lang they know"
[21:00] <Tobias|> I don't see how that's not circular
[21:01] <mrdragons> That's pretty anecdotal(sp?)
[21:01] <tntexplosivesltd> Tobias|: I meant sucks at programming in general
[21:01] <Tobias|> Do you know java?
[21:01] <tntexplosivesltd> you should be able to take any programming skills and apply them, regardless of the language
[21:01] <tntexplosivesltd> I do
[21:01] <Tobias|> Clearly you suck at programming in general
[21:01] <Tobias|> Because you know a language
[21:02] <mrdragons> "jack of all trades, master of none"
[21:02] <feep> guys I have no idea what we're talking about but
[21:02] <feep> java sucks
[21:02] <feep> :D
[21:02] <tntexplosivesltd> mrdragons: better than a master of 1
[21:02] <feep> arguablew
[21:02] <feep> -w
[21:02] <mrdragons> Not necessarily
[21:02] <MystX> Tobias|: He knows other languages, so by his own reasons, no
[21:02] <mrdragons> But yeah I dislike java
[21:02] <feep> I mean seriously
[21:02] <feep> how can you not have type inference
[21:02] <tntexplosivesltd> teaching kids the right way from the start means they can apply those skills to any problem, using any tool
[21:02] <feep> it's _trivial_
[21:02] <Tobias|> Assuming you listen to his addendum, MystX
[21:03] <tntexplosivesltd> rather than being confiled to one method of doing things
[21:03] <MystX> I thought that was the point you were making
[21:03] <mrdragons> Then you should argue we should be using assembly
[21:03] <feep> my personal recommended learning order is python, C, something high level, lisp
[21:03] <tntexplosivesltd> mrdragons: I am not argiong for a particular language
[21:03] <tntexplosivesltd> * arguing
[21:03] <feep> python for fun and structure, C for education on the underlying machine, something high level to expand their horizons, and lisp to blow their minds.
[21:03] <SphericalCow> I think high level programming is a better place to start for kids. Generally the tools and libraries are easier to use and it's easier to give the kids instant gratification and keep them interested
[21:03] <mrdragons> Oh yeah
[21:03] <MystX> Tobias|: either you were trying to catch him out by his own rules, or you just like randomly insulting people
[21:03] <mrdragons> Derp
[21:03] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:04] <SphericalCow> you can more easily do things like games
[21:04] <MystX> RUN The_Ball!
[21:04] <MystX> RUN AWAY
[21:04] <SphericalCow> then if they want to, they can go on and learn the low level stuff
[21:04] <tntexplosivesltd> SphericalCow: that is a good point, kids do need to be kept interested
[21:05] <SphericalCow> I am not too concerned about doing things with some preconceived and most likely wrong idea of what is "correct" or not
[21:05] <MystX> Im ok with that, as long as they are taught that java isnt the be-all and end-all of programming, and nothing else is better
[21:05] <SphericalCow> obviously I draw the line at Visual Basic
[21:05] <MystX> Because it seems that that idea is taught alot
[21:05] <Tobias|> MystX, has anybody been taught that?
[21:05] <MystX> ^^
[21:05] <Tobias|> It seems like that idea's parroted a lot by the hivemind
[21:06] <MystX> I know a LOT of people who wont leave it behind when they really should
[21:06] <feep> no srsly, java is a terrible starter language
[21:06] <MystX> Thank you feep
[21:06] <feep> it has a fun factor asymptotically approaching zero.
[21:06] <mrdragons> I really, really have to agree that java is not a good starting langauge.
[21:06] <mrdragons> It's complex for a noob
[21:07] <feep> it's not even that it's complex
[21:07] <MystX> Python might be a good place to start, again as long as people are taught that it's scripting, not proper programming
[21:07] <feep> java is a bit like lisp
[21:07] <Tobias|> Oh dear
[21:07] <feep> it has this really simple concept, (almost) everything is an object
[21:07] <Tobias|> MystX, take that elitism elsewhere
[21:07] <feep> and then it goes completely completely overboard with whaaaaaaaaaaat
[21:07] <mrdragons> MystX: Hmm? It is to programming
[21:07] <feep> MystX: that's bullshit.
[21:07] <Tobias|> Scripting is what playwriters do
[21:07] <Tobias|> If you're writing a program, it's programming
[21:08] <feep> python is a programming language.
[21:08] <MystX> Are you guys implying that python is not a scripting language?
[21:08] <feep> yes
[21:08] <feep> python is a programming language.
[21:08] <tntexplosivesltd> it is...
[21:08] <feep> wtf why would you use python for scripts
[21:08] <feep> there's bash for that
[21:08] <tntexplosivesltd> it's a scripting lang
[21:08] <MystX> It's read through an interpreter?
[21:08] <feep> not really no
[21:08] <mrdragons> It is a proper programming language.
[21:08] <Tobias|> I consider a script more a macro than anything else
[21:08] <SphericalCow> Python is a programming language. It's also a scripting language. The whole debate is stupid, though.
[21:08] <xlq> Define scripting language. Then have this discussion.
[21:08] <feep> it's not a scripting language.
[21:08] <Tobias|> "Scripting" language means nothing
[21:08] <tntexplosivesltd> it's migrating towards a programming lang though
[21:08] <Tobias|> I agree with xlq; define it.
[21:08] <MystX> xlq: comes with an interpreter
[21:08] <mrdragons> !w
[21:08] <PiBot> mrdragons: in Baltimore, MD on Wed Feb 1 18:54:00 2012. Temp 68??F. Condition: Cloudy, Humidity: 40%, Later 67??F - 43??F. Condition: Showers.
[21:08] <PiBot> Thu: High 52??F Low 36??F :Condition Rain
[21:08] <PiBot> Fri: High 52??F Low 34??F :Condition Clear
[21:08] <PiBot> Sat: High 49??F Low 34??F :Condition Mostly Sunny
[21:09] <MystX> i.e. not compiled
[21:09] <feep> MystX: no.
[21:09] <SphericalCow> You could create a Python compiler which outputs native binaries, then by your definition it would no longer be a "scripting language".
[21:09] <xlq> Languages don't "come with" anything.
[21:09] <mrdragons> Huh, could have sworn there was a forecast for a shitstorm
[21:09] <feep> MystX: python is a compiled language.
[21:09] <xlq> MystX: You can get C and C++ interpreters, you know.
[21:09] <Tobias|> That means nothing, MystX
[21:09] <Tobias|> guh
[21:09] <Tobias|> xlq, quit stealing my lines
[21:09] <xlq> Try going for something that's a property of the language, not its implementation(s).
[21:09] <feep> no you know, he'd be right
[21:09] <MystX> .. Why do you guys always resort to 'well actualy you CAN get a native builder for this' or 'well you CAN compile that with this stupid third part tool'
[21:10] <feep> it is valid to say that if the official implementation is an interpreter, then the language can be said to bei nterpreted
[21:10] <Tobias|> Because you can
[21:10] <feep> *be interpreted
[21:10] <feep> but my point is the default python impl is a compiler.
[21:10] <Tobias|> You only need one case to disprove a theorem, MystX
[21:10] <tntexplosivesltd> tpbit who uses it like that
[21:10] <tntexplosivesltd> * but
[21:10] <Tobias|> This kind of blows your argument to the wind
[21:10] <Tobias|> Who cares how you use it?
[21:10] <xlq> The default Python implementation is also an interpreter.
[21:10] <feep> xlq: I'm not convinced.
[21:10] <Tobias|> "Oh, for John, python is a scripting language. But for Peter, it's a programming language. This is because they use it differently!"
[21:10] <feep> I'm 90% sure it compiles in-memory and optionally caches the result.
[21:11] <xlq> feep: It compiles to bytecode and then interpreters the bytecode.
[21:11] <feep> xlq: so it's a compiled language
[21:11] <feep> or else java is interpreted
[21:11] <feep> which is just dumb
[21:11] <xlq> Yes. Compiled and then interpreted.
[21:11] <MystX> Tobias|: im talking about using the tools that come with an language
[21:11] <feep> no
[21:11] <feep> compiled
[21:11] <xlq> Java is JIT-compiled.
[21:11] <feep> you are completely abusing the meaning of the term interpreted.
[21:11] <Tobias|> There are no tools that come with a language, MystX. I can completely define the Java language without the existence of a runtime environment.
[21:12] <tntexplosivesltd> http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/scripting-vs-programming-is-there-a-difference/
[21:12] <feep> Tobias|: that's not quite true
[21:12] <feep> Tobias|: a language designer may endorse a default implementation
[21:12] <tntexplosivesltd> it's a pointless argument, you're straying from the original point
[21:12] <feep> like sun/oracle endorse the jvm
[21:12] <xlq> What a language designer does in his spare time has nothing to do with the definition of a language :P
[21:12] * matt__ is now known as kinda_le3t
[21:13] <feep> yes, technically any language may be either compiled or interpreted
[21:13] <feep> but I think that's a waste of a good term.
[21:13] <feep> We should call a language interpreted if it's a reasonable expectation that interpretation occurs when you use the language
[21:13] <feep> we should call a language compiled " " " " " use the language
[21:13] <xlq> feep: So you define interpreted = parsed and executed line-by-line?
[21:13] <feep> xlq: yes.
[21:13] <xlq> Hmm, so ... bash.
[21:13] <feep> anyway in that sense, C is a compiled language
[21:13] <xlq> Even zsh compiles to byte-code :P
[21:14] <feep> I'm fairly sure bash doesn't compile ..
[21:14] <feep> anyway, it is reasonable to expect that if you use C, you're compiling it
[21:14] <MystX> Ok so the line between scripting and programming is quite blurred these days
[21:14] <feep> thus one can call C a "compiled language"
[21:14] <xlq> Yeah. I think bash interprets line-by-line. But zsh can compile to byte-code.
[21:14] <feep> if zsh does this by default, then I would consider it a compiled language :)
[21:14] <mrdragons> It wouldn't be though.
[21:14] <feep> technically not
[21:15] <feep> practically yes
[21:15] <tntexplosivesltd> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway
[21:15] <MystX> So, about that R-Pi
[21:15] <tntexplosivesltd> what would be a good first lang
[21:15] <feep> python.
[21:15] <kinda_le3t> i don't know if you can really talk about a "compiled" or "interpretted" language. like you can write a compiler for anything
[21:15] <xlq> So how did this discussion start? I just jumped in and started arguing :P
[21:15] <mrdragons> Nothing
[21:15] <kinda_le3t> so whatever
[21:15] <MystX> tnt: NOOOOOO
[21:15] <feep> QBasic for DOS :D
[21:15] <feep> Logo
[21:15] <SphericalCow> I think C# is not a bad first language
[21:15] <mrdragons> Javascript
[21:15] <feep> (depends how young you're startinwhat
[21:15] <feep> )
[21:15] <xlq> I started with QBASIC too \o/
[21:15] <feep> SphericalCow: wow, get 'em hooked on microsoft early .. :D
[21:15] <MystX> ASM
[21:15] <feep> xlq: \o/
[21:15] <feep> xlq: CLS! CLEAR! SCREEN 13!
[21:15] <ukscone1> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2094372/Essexs-Colchester-Zoo-barn-owl-demonstration-ends-lion-EATS-bird-prey.html?ITO=1490
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> honestly, at this point javascript is probably the best thign to start with
[21:16] <xlq> Anything with obligatory OOP is not a good starting language imho.
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> you can build mobile apps, browser extensions, etc whatever
[21:16] <feep> kinda_le3t: javascript is awesome but it has a lack of structure
[21:16] <xlq> How to explain wtf object and classes are/are for without even knowing about basic imperative programming?
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> and do it in a language that's very close to anything
[21:16] <feep> you can fuck up too easily in it
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> javascript has good structure
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> i mean,
[21:16] <feep> it encourages bad code if you don't know what you're doing
[21:16] <SphericalCow> feep: yeah, I know, but I think the advantages outweigh the EVIL M$ part, and like I've said many times there is a great free implementation (Mono)
[21:16] <MystX> kind of relevant: http://xkcd.com/378/
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> it's all kinda design oriented
[21:16] <xlq> Ada has excellent structure.
[21:16] <feep> SphericalCow: for various considerations of great
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> like get a book on javascript programming patterns and you're fine
[21:16] <kinda_le3t> and your software can run anywhere
[21:17] <kinda_le3t> so it's not like you're making apps that only you can run
[21:17] <Tobias|> 'run anywhere'?
[21:17] <feep> SphericalCow: in any case, are we srsly gonna trust a project controlled by ms, like, ever again?
[21:17] <Tobias|> Pretty sure that's the latter half of Java's slogan
[21:17] <kinda_le3t> like asking someone to install python to see your stupid program is kinda ridiculous, you know?
[21:17] <xlq> You won't be able to run JavaScript on 90% of the world's computers though...
[21:17] <kinda_le3t> hah
[21:17] <kinda_le3t> what?
[21:17] <SphericalCow> feep: what's the worst that can happen? :)
[21:17] <Tobias|> "Sun Microsystems released the first public implementation as Java 1.0 in 1995. It promised "Write Once, Run Anywhere" (WORA), "
[21:17] <xlq> Isn't it that about 90% of all computers are microcontrollers?
[21:17] <feep> SphericalCow: closed-source language extensions
[21:17] <Tobias|> (That's for you, kinda_le3t )
[21:17] <mrdragons> Wat, I was kidding about javsscript
[21:17] <feep> patents on code structures
[21:18] <xlq> Tobias|: Write once, debug everywhere ;)
[21:18] <MystX> ALL KIDS MUST WRITE IN BINARY
[21:18] <MystX> Discussion closed
[21:18] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev)
[21:18] <SpeedEvil> xlq: probably more
[21:18] <mrdragons> Little endian binary or big endian binary?
[21:18] <kinda_le3t> yea, we should really only be encouraging kids to write in lisp anyway...
[21:18] <xlq> SpeedEvil: Yeah, probably.
[21:18] <feep> signed APIs for exporting to microsoft document formats, with penalties for other formats
[21:18] <xlq> There was a time I could write a little bit of x86 machine code in binary.
[21:18] <kinda_le3t> xlq: hah
[21:18] <SpeedEvil> xlq: that number possibly omits the fact that there are likely 10 microcontrollers in your average PC
[21:18] <feep> microsoft reveals they have a patent on a critical part of the runtime
[21:18] <feep> and starts demanding license fees from mono
[21:18] <xlq> SpeedEvil: Good point.
[21:19] <xlq> My computer's probably decacore ;)
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> xlq: My phone - IIRC - has 12
[21:19] <SphericalCow> feep: If such a situation occurred (unlikely), Mono would still work and you could write for C# 4.0 or whatever the latest version still supported is
[21:19] <xlq> O_o
[21:19] <SphericalCow> feep: also, Microsoft has issued an irrevocable free patent license for any implementation of their CLR and C# standards
[21:19] <feep> hhuh
[21:20] * feep grabs his long list of evil things microsoft can do
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> xlq: LED controller (yes, it's turing complete) ARM core. Other arm core for phone. Hard-real-time core for phone. DSP core. Bluetooth, wifi,
[21:20] * feep strikes out one entry
[21:20] <xlq> Sorry for the programming-related interruption. Your normal when-will-the-pi-be-released service will be resumed shortly.
[21:20] <MystX> Little endian is for whimps
[21:20] * SpeedEvil wonders what he's forgotten
[21:20] <feep> SpeedEvil: ....... LED controller?
[21:20] <feep> what
[21:20] <kinda_le3t> for the next few months, while we wait for raspberrypi, we should just discuss minecraft
[21:20] <xlq> SpeedEvil: Sounds a bit over-engineered with an ARM core for an LED controller :P
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> feep: The LED controller chip has a turing complete instruction set. Complete with loops and conditionals.
[21:20] <feep> so you know what minecraft needs
[21:20] <feep> scripting support!
[21:20] <SpeedEvil> It's not ARM
[21:21] <tntexplosivesltd> kinda_le3t: NO
[21:21] <feep> SpeedEvil: that is simultaneously insane and awesome
[21:21] <feep> awesanesome.
[21:21] <MystX> feep: so in bash?
[21:21] <xlq> Oh.
[21:21] <xlq> Still.. weird.
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> (about 130 bytes RAM IIRC)
[21:21] <feep> MystX: you can do scripting in compiled languages.
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[21:21] <xlq> SpeedEvil: And how much LED controlling does it do?
[21:21] <MystX> =P
[21:21] <tntexplosivesltd> feep: depends on how it's compiled
[21:21] <kinda_le3t> scripting in languages with braces is so annoying
[21:21] <feep> possibly~
[21:21] <traeak> google chrome's native client is an interesting beast
[21:21] <MystX> DO you know what we should discuss? The benefits of running for-loops backward
[21:21] <kinda_le3t> well - running in interactive mode with braces is what i really meant
[21:22] <xlq> There aren't that many languages without braces.
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> xlq: It controls 3 LED channels, so it can flash, fade, ramp, and do various coloured pulses automatically.
[21:22] <feep> MystX: ... what
[21:22] <tntexplosivesltd> feep: in C++ it's damn hard
[21:22] <kinda_le3t> MystX: I agree. I run at least 90% of my for-loops backwards
[21:22] <xlq> SpeedEvil: I see. Useful.
[21:22] <MystX> MM, quite
[21:22] <feep> tntexplosivesltd: well yeah because c++ uses oodles of ram
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[21:22] <traeak> why run them backwards?
[21:22] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[21:22] <feep> otherwise you could just rebuild the source every time
[21:22] <tntexplosivesltd> ...
[21:22] <kinda_le3t> traeak: *shrug*
[21:22] <traeak> feep: is that a joke?
[21:22] <MystX> Lots of ram? wtf
[21:22] <tntexplosivesltd> feep: what the hell man
[21:22] <feep> um, templates? boost? stl?
[21:22] * MystX digs out his c++ game..
[21:23] <kinda_le3t> i've actually only done it once... because i had to remove some elements from a list, and didn't want to slice
[21:23] <feep> .. I mean the compiler
[21:23] <feep> not the language
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[21:23] <feep> g++ to be exact
[21:23] <xlq> Running them backwards is better, because you only need one counter variable, and comparing with zero is often cheaper than comparing with another variable.
[21:23] <feep> especially at higher optimization levels
[21:23] <traeak> well yeah, C++ is a bad language to compile
[21:23] <traeak> microsoft can't get that right
[21:23] <traeak> pisses me off to no end
[21:23] <FireFly> Hence Go was born
[21:23] <tntexplosivesltd> feep: scrioting means no recompilation
[21:23] <kinda_le3t> xlq: but an optimizer should do that for you
[21:23] <tntexplosivesltd> * scripting
[21:23] <feep> tntexplosivesltd: to me, scripting means behavior modifiable at runtime
[21:23] <feep> programmable*
[21:23] <tntexplosivesltd> in the sense of a game
[21:23] <feep> you can do that with recompilation
[21:24] <SphericalCow> feep: anyway, software patents are so awful that I think it's just as likely that MS or some other evil corporation could use their patents against other free competing languages
[21:24] <xlq> kinda_le3t: If it can...
[21:24] <feep> just build an object file and link it in
[21:24] <traeak> embedded engine like lua
[21:24] <tntexplosivesltd> I guess if it's JIT then that's not a problem
[21:24] <SphericalCow> it would make more sense than using it against a free version of their own languages
[21:24] <xlq> kinda_le3t: That optimisation would become a whole-program optimisation if you pass that index to a function.
[21:24] <tntexplosivesltd> so yes, in C++ it's a bitch
[21:24] <xlq> Unless that function was marked pure.
[21:24] <feep> SphericalCow: yeah, software patents can go do bla bla children in the room bla with a COCKATRICE.
[21:24] <SphericalCow> i don't know what you just said but I agree
[21:25] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[21:26] * tntexplosivesltd nods like he knows what's going on
[21:26] <kinda_le3t> honestly, I'm so much more invested in readable code now than hyper-optimized
[21:26] <mrdragons> Ah, a poet
[21:26] <xlq> kinda_le3t: I'm more interested in correct code (strong type systems)
[21:26] <tntexplosivesltd> hahahaha
[21:26] <kinda_le3t> mathematician*
[21:26] <MystX> Huh, razorwire uses 20MB of ram
[21:26] <MystX> Thats more than i thought
[21:26] <traeak> kinda_le3t: "hyper optimized" code is usually very suboptimal anyways
[21:26] <tntexplosivesltd> mrdragons: it's called maintainability
[21:26] <xlq> But yeah, readable code is good for optimising :)
[21:26] <mrdragons> :P
[21:27] <traeak> picking the right algorithm typically trumps hyper optimization
[21:27] <tntexplosivesltd> exactly
[21:27] <feep> eh, isolated cases of hyper-optimization can make a huge difference!
[21:27] <xlq> MystX: How did you measure that?
[21:27] <MystX> very roughly
[21:27] <traeak> yes but as a last resort
[21:27] <feep> of course
[21:27] <kinda_le3t> yea - the neat thing about most scripting is that once you get some glue between it and like C/Fortran
[21:27] <feep> rule 2 and all
[21:27] <kinda_le3t> you basically have all these kludgy but black-boxed numerical libraries you can use
[21:27] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: is that woth the gwen crap?
[21:28] <MystX> Na
[21:28] <kinda_le3t> and no one may ever rewrite or touchup again
[21:28] <MystX> git version
[21:28] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm
[21:28] <xlq> Using *a++ = *b++ instead of something more readable "because it's optimised" --- doing it wrong.
[21:28] <feep> >_<
[21:28] <kinda_le3t> xlq: agreed
[21:28] <feep> xlq: wtf. memcpy that shit.
[21:28] <mrdragons> ...
[21:28] <xlq> ;)
[21:28] <xlq> feep: It's just an example.
[21:28] <kinda_le3t> I love how on so many boards all you see are these insane one liners that aren't even optimal code
[21:29] <kinda_le3t> it's just less lines
[21:29] <xlq> *fewer lines
[21:29] <feep> just to remind everyone
[21:29] <feep> rule one of optimization
[21:29] <feep> don't
[21:29] <feep> rule two of optimization (experts only)
[21:29] <mrdragons> Again, ...
[21:29] <xlq> I thought rule one was profile.
[21:29] <feep> don't yet
[21:29] <feep> xlq: no that's rule 2. "don't yet. measure first. "
[21:30] <traeak> rule 1: run your own damn code
[21:30] <xlq> Meh, different rules ;)
[21:30] <kinda_le3t> traeak: hah what
[21:30] <feep> > "The First Rule of Program Optimization: Don't do it. The Second Rule of Program Optimization (for experts only!): Don't do it yet." ??? Michael A. Jackson
[21:30] <feep> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_optimization
[21:30] <traeak> kinda_le3t: it compiled so ship it mentality...that needs to be killt
[21:30] <feep> traeak: the common idiom for that is "Eat your own dogfood. "
[21:31] <traeak> feep: cool that's a good metaphor
[21:31] <kinda_le3t> so when's raspberry pi coming out....
[21:31] <xlq> Make it. Then make it work. Then make it work quickly. Then throw it all away and hack it together in Perl.
[21:31] <MystX> Is it out yet?
[21:31] * PiBot slaps MystX across the face with a cast iron pan.
[21:31] * MystX is still at the 'make it work' stage
[21:32] <traeak> make it work
[21:32] <xlq> The Hurd guys are still at the 'make it' stage :D
[21:32] <traeak> optimization should be done while waiting for it to "work"
[21:32] <traeak> i lose patience waitng for shit to "work" and then start doing some optimizations
[21:32] <kinda_le3t> doesn't that make it harder to get it to work?
[21:32] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: RazorWire on R-Pi =D
[21:33] <traeak> kinda_le3t: depends on if you want to wait days for a result
[21:33] <traeak> kinda_le3t: or enhance an algorithm and wait minutes
[21:33] <kinda_le3t> traeak: hah - depends on what your task is, I guess
[21:34] <kinda_le3t> yea, if you're working with a dataset of a million entries... sure fitting that naively might take forever
[21:34] <traeak> kinda_le3t: high performance multithreaded crap
[21:34] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: =D
[21:34] <MystX> Right after i get it wirking
[21:34] <tntexplosivesltd> and maybe port sake XD
[21:34] <traeak> kinda_le3t: but doing it naively if it works out could give the data needed to continue or throw it out
[21:35] <traeak> talking new development, not maintenance
[21:35] <MystX> tntexplosivesltd: also, vertex buffer objects =\
[21:35] <kinda_le3t> traeak: yea, sometimes it's worth it to just get some performance results... but we kinda go to school jsut to know when it's not going to work out
[21:36] <traeak> kinda_le3t: i went to school to learn how to solve problems, a computer is one tool
[21:36] * MystX (~MystX@ec2-107-21-100-215.compute-1.amazonaws.com) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[21:36] <kinda_le3t> traeak: agreed
[21:36] <traeak> kinda_le3t: i have an engineering degree, not software
[21:36] <traeak> kinda_le3t: typically engineers are far better problem solvers than comp sci...typically
[21:37] * MystX (~MystX@ec2-107-21-100-215.compute-1.amazonaws.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:37] <kinda_le3t> traeak: yea engineers actually get things done
[21:37] <mrdragons> Engineers tend to be brilliant
[21:37] <kinda_le3t> ^ hah
[21:37] <traeak> and the trump factor is a phd if you have a phd you don't ever get shit done
[21:37] <traeak> mrdragons: nah, physics majors are smarter
[21:37] <kinda_le3t> engineering phd's are like light applied math degrees with specific field associated
[21:38] <kinda_le3t> math majors are smarter
[21:38] <traeak> in my experience engineering school is more an endurance thing than education
[21:38] <kinda_le3t> ... and do nothing
[21:38] <mrdragons> They just spend the rest of their lifes throwing things at walls though. >_>
[21:38] <traeak> IMHO physics majors have the best overal education
[21:38] <kinda_le3t> traeak: really?
[21:38] <traeak> yes
[21:39] <kinda_le3t> I can't even talk to theoretical physicists
[21:39] <tntexplosivesltd> practical or theoretical?
[21:39] <kinda_le3t> people into experimental stuff are legit, but they still miss out on a lot of skills
[21:39] <traeak> interesting question. i'm not sure what my partner has but he does both
[21:39] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[21:39] <ReggieUK> I like theoretical physicists
[21:39] <traeak> partner is brilliant physicist we're using math no one else is...idiot university professors
[21:39] <tntexplosivesltd> I prefer people skills >.>
[21:39] <mrdragons> I have none of those
[21:40] <traeak> people skills are important as well
[21:40] <Tobias|> ReggieUK, I have a theoretical degree in physics
[21:40] <tntexplosivesltd> makes you employable
[21:40] <traeak> my people skills are to rub everyone as wrong as possible
[21:40] * ReggieUK hugs Tobias|
[21:40] <kinda_le3t> yea, collaboration is definitely important nowadays
[21:40] <MystX> traeak: ~.-
[21:40] * MystX has no degree in EVERYTHING
[21:41] <Tobias|> ReggieUK, read what I said again more closely >.>
[21:41] <ReggieUK> I like astronomy and theoretical physicists answer my 2am ponderous questions whilst staring into the darkness
[21:41] <traeak> graph theory is lovely but damn inefficient
[21:41] <traeak> and threading it :(
[21:41] * ReggieUK pushes Tobias| away
[21:41] <Tobias|> :'[
[21:41] <Tobias|> I couldn't continue living the lie
[21:41] <kinda_le3t> graph theory is like necessary to know
[21:41] <ReggieUK> :D
[21:41] <kinda_le3t> but *shrug* who does anything purely nowadays?
[21:42] <MystX> Poeple who havent heard of javba?
[21:42] <MystX> java*
[21:42] <ReggieUK> at least physicists can say 'we really don't know'
[21:42] <kinda_le3t> MystX: not really what i was getting at. java is bad for numerical/scientific computing
[21:42] <MystX> Lol
[21:42] <ReggieUK> java was meant for fridges, what do you expect?
[21:43] * wtpayne (~textual@rrcs-184-75-39-118.nyc.biz.rr.com) Quit ()
[21:43] <tntexplosivesltd> loool
[21:43] <tntexplosivesltd> and it failed
[21:43] <ReggieUK> well, it didn't
[21:43] <ReggieUK> the market failed it
[21:43] <tntexplosivesltd> my fridge doesn't even have AI yet
[21:43] <ReggieUK> it chose to make web crap instead of embedding it into fridges
[21:43] <tntexplosivesltd> also they made it too big
[21:43] <MystX> new idea: R-Pi powered fridge
[21:44] <ctyler> with a bot to tell you to buy chips
[21:44] <tntexplosivesltd> =D
[21:44] <kinda_le3t> MystX: sick back on comment move. When's it coming out?
[21:44] <mrdragons> tnt: Pfft, what time zone are you living in? You're behind a couple centuries
[21:44] <MystX> yes
[21:44] <tntexplosivesltd> mrdragons: =(
[21:44] <MystX> kinda_le3t: What?
[21:44] <mrdragons> My fridge is the equivilent of skynet
[21:44] <MystX> OH
[21:44] <kinda_le3t> MystX: nevermind - i was kinda just laughing to myself kinda
[21:44] <MystX> I try my hardest to keep this chan on topic
[21:45] <kinda_le3t> hah
[21:45] <mrdragons> (I'ma just kidding btw)
[21:45] <kinda_le3t> impossible
[21:45] <tntexplosivesltd> mrdragons: well obviously
[21:45] <mrdragons> I dunno, people can be touchy
[21:46] * Faperdaper (~Faperdape@dhcp-077-250-027-109.chello.nl) Quit (Quit: Quit)
[21:46] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[21:46] <MystX> Ok seriously i have to minimise this channel now so i actually do work
[21:46] <MystX> afc
[21:47] <mrdragons> No you don't; stay with us MystX! :D
[21:47] <MystX> =\
[21:47] * xe4l (~xe4l@gateway/tor-sasl/xe4l) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[21:47] <mrdragons> "have to" is such a strong phrase
[21:48] <tntexplosivesltd> this is why U have 2 screens
[21:48] <tntexplosivesltd> * I
[21:48] * xe4l (~xe4l@gateway/tor-sasl/xe4l) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:48] <tntexplosivesltd> work in one, chan in the other
[21:50] * imnichol (~ian@somsen-128-109.winona.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[21:50] <MystX> I dont have enough self control for that
[21:53] <MystX> is hippy here?
[21:53] <MystX> Aww thats too bad. Prbly to young for IRC
[21:54] <MystX> too*
[21:54] <mrdragons> Go work boy.
[21:54] <mrdragons> slave*
[21:54] <MystX> Waiting for a test to run -D
[21:54] <MystX> =D*
[21:54] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[21:56] * jmontleon (~jmontleon@c-76-19-35-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:56] <MystX> I only hate java so much because i have to work with it..
[21:57] <MystX> And because i tried to write a java app and it just 'Doesnt work(tm)' for no reason
[21:57] <mrdragons> Ouch
[21:58] <MystX> I love it when conecting a client to a socket causes JTextAreas to become unresponsive
[21:58] <MystX> Not UI elements in general. JUST JTextAreas.
[21:59] <xlq> lol
[21:59] <Tobias|> I don't mind Java
[21:59] <Tobias|> I can't stand Swing
[22:00] <MystX> And yes, i have made quadruple sure that everything is outside of the EDT that should be
[22:02] <mrdragons> you should make pentuple sure
[22:03] <MystX> Should do.. 5th time lucky
[22:04] <MystX> Lol. tntexplosivesltd my laptop takes ~20 seconds to compile Razorwire. PC takes ~1 second
[22:06] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[22:06] <tntexplosivesltd> =D
[22:07] * qw- (~qw@host-92-7-80-126.as43234.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:08] * djazz (~djazz@78-70-243-240-no186.tbcn.telia.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:09] * koaschten (~koaschten@31-16-0-231-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:09] * Edek (~Edek@5357E55B.cm-6-8d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:11] * mchou (~quassel@unaffiliated/mchou) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:14] <WASDx> MystX: you're probably connecting to the socket in the Swing thread
[22:15] <FireFly> How young is "too young for IRC"?
[22:16] * krake (~krake@pC19F7E14.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:16] <WASDx> I know a regular IRC user that is 16 I think. I've talked to 12 year old kids too.
[22:16] <WASDx> just give anyone a simple client and they should be fine
[22:17] <haltdef> I started on irc at 11
[22:17] <haltdef> trying to pirate palm OS software ????
[22:17] <FireFly> Heh
[22:17] <DaQatz> Just a minute, my irc is out sync. I need to recalibrate my keyboard.
[22:17] * FireFly thinks
[22:18] <MystX> one step closer...: http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2010/101104.html
[22:18] * jluisn (~quassel@187.115.172.24) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:18] <MystX> WASDx: Im pretty sure
[22:19] <FireFly> I think I started at 12 or 13
[22:19] <MystX> The connection acception is in the main progrma loop
[22:22] <WASDx> it should be fine then i think
[22:22] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:22] <WASDx> Swing has its own thread
[22:23] <MystX> yeah i thought so
[22:24] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@c-68-37-165-37.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:24] <MystX> I may have to look at the interaction between the client data and the form though,as apparently swing stuff isnt threadsafe
[22:24] <WASDx> I think you are supposed to use http://www.javamex.com/tutorials/threads/invokelater.shtml if you're accessing swing-elements from another thread
[22:24] <MystX> Thought Im sure I use invokeLater anywhere where the two cross paths
[22:25] <MystX> ^lol
[22:25] <WASDx> :D
[22:25] <WASDx> it was a long time since i worked with swing
[22:25] <WASDx> and that only JTextAreas hang...
[22:29] <MystX> Yay another thing to try fix =P
[22:30] <tntexplosivesltd> yay fixing all the tests
[22:30] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[22:32] <vgrade> another website pied
[22:32] <MystX> pied?
[22:33] <vgrade> http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/604
[22:33] <vgrade> links to http://www.stmlabs.com/2012/01/30/raspbmc-the-xbmc-distribution-for-raspberrypi/
[22:33] <Thorn_> is it out yet
[22:33] * PiBot slaps Thorn_ across the face with a cast iron pan.
[22:34] <koaschten> for some reason i still want this ... http://twitpic.com/8edq68
[22:35] <koaschten> can you name them? http://twitpic.com/8ednxy/full
[22:35] * Datum_Errata (~ivarr@66.129.61.31) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[22:35] * Datum_Errata (~ivarr@mail.cstcm.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:37] * krake (~krake@pC19F7E14.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:37] <MystX> Yeah the small one is sweet
[22:39] <traeak> the small one would have been just fine for what i want
[22:40] <traeak> why did that not fly again ?
[22:40] <koaschten> too little connectors ;)
[22:40] <traeak> if that's what you want
[22:40] <koaschten> number of ^^
[22:40] <traeak> if you just want a mini computer with HDMI the first one would be fine
[22:40] <koaschten> it only had normal size usb to power it and hdmi for display and some pinouts
[22:41] <traeak> and i guess they could have gone into production with that mid 2011 instead
[22:41] * vipkilla (~t_dot_zil@unaffiliated/t-dot-zilla/x-2830497) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
[22:41] <traeak> put a microatx phone power adapter and it would have been fine
[22:41] <traeak> oh well
[22:41] <traeak> i know, allowing hardware hackers
[22:42] <traeak> grr
[22:42] <traeak> trying to run a calibration in downtown vancouver
[22:42] <traeak> brutal, brutal
[22:45] <xlq> koaschten: Raspberry pi prototype, raspberry pi alpha, raspberry pi beta
[22:45] <koaschten> xlq pfff you took so long, you cold have read the footnote ;)
[22:45] <xlq> I was afk :P
[22:46] <traeak> rpi .5 as the tiny one with micro atx power connector and still 1 usb port
[22:46] <traeak> would have been awesome win
[22:46] <RITRedbeard> yeaahhhh
[22:47] <RITRedbeard> you'll playin basketball in pelican bay when I get finshed with you
[22:47] <RITRedbeard> SHU program, brother, 23 hour lock down
[22:47] <RITRedbeard> you will never see the light of day
[22:49] <tntexplosivesltd> what...?
[22:49] <RITRedbeard> I'm the police, I run shit here, you just live here
[22:50] <tntexplosivesltd> what are you talking about?
[22:50] <xlq> Liberty fail.
[22:50] <MystX> Did anyone do pinewood derbys?
[22:50] <RITRedbeard> You probably don't know what I'm talking about because you probably watch The Big Bang Theory.
[22:50] <RITRedbeard> Yes.
[22:50] <RITRedbeard> I lost.
[22:51] <MystX> Did the wheels have to protrude the car?
[22:51] <RITRedbeard> Not for Boy Scouts, no, cuz the kit block bodies had already routed the wheel wells.
[22:52] * MystX thinks he could kick some resious aerodynaic ass
[22:52] <RITRedbeard> This assumes of course you tea sippers can watch The Big Bang Theory... I know you guys are still behind on all media.
[22:53] <RITRedbeard> I heard you guys were just getting Tupac and 1990s g-funk and rap.
[22:53] <MystX> I watch it >_>
[22:53] <RITRedbeard> So it might take awhile.
[22:53] <RITRedbeard> Also I refuse to call the show by its official name, I will now hereby call it "Black Face For 'Nerds'".
[22:53] <MystX> And im elitest about it
[22:53] <tntexplosivesltd> oh dear
[22:53] <tntexplosivesltd> site's down again
[22:54] <RITRedbeard> I frequently wonder if Liz and Eben's sex life is reflective upon the progress of the Raspberry Pi, if they are similar...
[22:54] <tntexplosivesltd> oh no there we go
[22:54] <RITRedbeard> If so, we might as well call Eben 'Captain Blue Balls'. Poor guy.
[22:55] <tntexplosivesltd> heh
[22:55] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't really like to think about it
[22:56] <MystX> >_>
[22:57] <MystX> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8j4JvpSNMA
[22:57] <MystX> OH GOD
[22:58] <MystX> Also, i want one of them to hang form the ceiling and have it follow poeple
[22:58] <MystX> from the ceiling*
[22:58] * xlq (~apropos@89-168-179-216.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[22:58] <mrdragons> The progress on the pi has been relatively fast actually
[22:59] <tntexplosivesltd> MystX: bloody arduino
[22:59] <RITRedbeard> Yeah but they keep giving timeframe in normal people time rather than engineering time
[22:59] <RITRedbeard> so we should have it earliest by beginning of 2013
[22:59] <MystX> They give it in valve time =P
[23:00] <RITRedbeard> also that thing about getting it made in the UK... they were hitting the dope
[23:00] <RITRedbeard> What companies have mass production solder/assembly/pick 'n place here in the west?
[23:00] <RITRedbeard> Don't worry, I'll wait.
[23:00] <MystX> lol
[23:00] <RITRedbeard> Also, what would lead you to believe they can deliver the units at the $35 USD price point?
[23:01] <RITRedbeard> Go ahead, don't worry, I'll wait.
[23:01] * RITRedbeard taps foot.
[23:01] <mrdragons> They can't, they'll never be released
[23:02] <RITRedbeard> That is so plainly obvious that it seems like they just made it up.
[23:02] <RITRedbeard> I'm not that stupid.
[23:02] <DaQatz> !w
[23:02] <PiBot> DaQatz: in Berwick, ME on Thu Feb 2 00:51:00 2012. Temp 39??F. Condition: Clear, Humidity: 89%, Later 44??F - 27??F. Condition: Chance of Ice.
[23:02] <RITRedbeard> I'm all for supporting the tea drinkers, I mean, they've gave us a lot of stuff.
[23:02] <mrdragons> Like tea
[23:02] <DaQatz> I like my tea.
[23:02] <RITRedbeard> We have the waves of British Rock and Heavy Metal. In particular Black Sabbath.
[23:02] <mrdragons> Except I'm pretty sure that's from china
[23:03] <mrdragons> the tea*
[23:03] <DaQatz> I also like my coffee.
[23:03] <RITRedbeard> They gave us Chef Ramsey.
[23:03] <RITRedbeard> They gave the world... uh..
[23:03] <DaQatz> RITRedbeard, we're looking for GOOD things they gave us?
[23:03] <RITRedbeard> Monty Python, yeah, that's a good one.
[23:03] * Edek (~Edek@5357E55B.cm-6-8d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:03] <mrdragons> Well, 2 hours of it
[23:04] <RITRedbeard> But you are high on drugs if you think you can get that made in the west at reasonable time frame and price.
[23:04] <RITRedbeard> Isn't. Going. To. Happen.
[23:04] * ebarch_ is now known as ebarch
[23:05] <DaQatz> I do not particularly like US comedy, mind you like UK comedy less.
[23:05] <DaQatz> It's been awhile since either has made anything good imo...
[23:06] <mrdragons> That's such a weird way of looking at it
[23:07] * zear (~zear@h196n1-g-kt-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:07] <RITRedbeard> At comedy or the fact that it is unreasonable?
[23:08] * krake (~krake@pC19F7E14.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Quit: Bye.)
[23:08] <MystX> Yay forums down =(
[23:08] <mrdragons> I dunno, just looking at comedy as siding with one side or the other seems weird
[23:10] * Balestrino_ (~SB@host130-189-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:10] <RITRedbeard> Well, you guys like East Enders and we like It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia. Is that even a comedy show? Eh, doesn't matter.
[23:10] <CuriosTiger> Best UK comedy: Monty Python: The Argument Clinic.
[23:11] <RITRedbeard> Argument? No, no, this is verbal abuse, you're looking for the next door over.
[23:11] <RITRedbeard> Oh... sorry.
[23:11] <RITRedbeard> ...Twit.
[23:11] <CuriosTiger> "stupid git", actually
[23:12] <mrdragons> Git? :O
[23:12] <RITRedbeard> git!
[23:12] <MystX> I like git
[23:12] <CuriosTiger> my favorite part is where he pays to continue the argument
[23:12] <CuriosTiger> and Cleese starts arguing over whether he paid
[23:12] <mrdragons> I'ma have to go find that movie now
[23:12] <CuriosTiger> "Ah! But if you're arguing, I must have paid!"
[23:13] <CuriosTiger> "Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time."
[23:13] * heraclitus_ (~heraclitu@sa-184-169.saturn.infonet.ee) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:13] <RITRedbeard> I like the Vistors sketch.
[23:14] <CuriosTiger> I like Chinese
[23:14] <MystX> Damn you database errors
[23:15] <RITRedbeard> and the Agatha Christie sketch.
[23:19] <traeak> !w
[23:19] <PiBot> traeak: in Parker, CO on Wed Feb 1 15:53:00 2012. Temp 10??C. Condition: Clear, Humidity: 13%, Later 7??C - -2??C. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[23:20] <MystX> !entertainMe
[23:21] <MystX> !omegle
[23:21] <MystX> dammit
[23:22] <mrdragons> MystX: MySql errors, huh?
[23:23] <MystX> mmh
[23:23] * NIN101 (~NIN@2001:530::216:3cff:fe71:5e1e) Quit (Quit: NIN101)
[23:24] <MystX> Talking bout the forum
[23:25] <mrdragons> Oh yeah
[23:26] <RITRedbeard> The forum is like a dog and a nice green lawn. That dog is a big black Labrador. It just dumped on the lawn. :(
[23:26] <RITRedbeard> But atleast labs are cuddly dogs.
[23:26] <MystX> Wat..
[23:26] <mrdragons> It makes sense if you don't think about it
[23:27] <RITRedbeard> It makes perfect sense.
[23:27] <mrdragons> If you don't think about it.
[23:27] <RITRedbeard> It makes sense either way.
[23:29] <kinda_le3t> I don't think anything really makes sense
[23:29] * boghog (~aphax@2001:980:34c7:0:1e6f:65ff:fe86:1e03) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:30] <kinda_le3t> in all seriousness, do they actually have a real release date?
[23:30] <kinda_le3t> or is it all just speculative and completely optimistic
[23:30] <boghog> hey guys, I was wondering how the raspberrypi boots, I read somewhere that the bootloader is embedded in the GPU blob, which sounds really weird to me, how does that work?
[23:30] <CuriosTiger> boghog: The GPU runs some code that eventually powers up the CPU
[23:31] <mrdragons> The gpu is the bootloader
[23:31] <mrdragons> In it's own way
[23:31] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[23:31] <MystX> kinda_le3t: More news in a couple of weeks
[23:31] <boghog> hmmm
[23:32] <MystX> They should START getting boards back in 1-2 weeks
[23:32] <boghog> ah okay, I guess I just misunderstood what is meant by GPU blob, I actually that that was just a closed kernel module that gets loaded only after booting
[23:32] <mrdragons> Are they doing the testing at the factories, or themselves?
[23:32] <boghog> s/that that/thought that/
[23:33] <MystX> mrdragons: I imagine the boards will be electrically tested. And then they'll probably plug a few in to make sure it boots etc
[23:33] <kinda_le3t> and like none will work
[23:33] <kinda_le3t> they'll get something back they didn't expect
[23:34] <MystX> If you want to be a pesimist about it, yeah
[23:34] <kinda_le3t> for some reason, when you plug them in, everyone in the room gets itchy... or something
[23:34] <MystX> lol
[23:34] <mrdragons> You're right, just look at how many bugs the beta boards had
[23:34] <MystX> 1
[23:35] <mrdragons> Exactly. And that was easily fixed.
[23:35] <mrdragons> You worry too much. :P
[23:35] <boghog> part of me would be happy if I got a broken board
[23:35] <kinda_le3t> hah
[23:35] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7-dev)
[23:35] <kinda_le3t> vintage ...
[23:35] <boghog> would finally give me a valid excuse to buy a soldering iron.. maybe
[23:35] <kinda_le3t> I think you gotta frame a defective board
[23:36] <MystX> boghog: you already have an excuse - GPIO
[23:36] <mrdragons> If you could solder that you have +10 hacker points
[23:36] <boghog> oh yeah :o
[23:36] <MystX> Or DSI or any of the other headers
[23:37] <boghog> I actually bought an arduino and a breadboard some time ago which was fun for a week or so, but I think I already forget everything I learned
[23:37] <boghog> which makes me sad
[23:37] <mrdragons> Same; I built a guitar amp a while back and hardly remember anything from it
[23:37] <kinda_le3t> i still use my once in a while
[23:37] <kinda_le3t> mine*
[23:37] <mrdragons> Still have the soldering iron though
[23:37] <kinda_le3t> i had 2 rounds of arduino
[23:38] <kinda_le3t> and the second time i definitely retained more
[23:38] <kinda_le3t> even though I got way more into the first time
[23:38] <kinda_le3t> i'm off.
[23:38] * kinda_le3t (~matt@dhcp-140-247-114-117.fas.harvard.edu) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[23:39] * vgrade (~martinbro@cpc2-nrte22-2-0-cust128.8-4.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[23:43] * customtronics (~puppy@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:46] <MystX> Yay simple curl commands
[23:47] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:47] * johnthebear (~Johnthebe@13-164-111.client.wireless.msu.edu) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[23:49] <boghog> I wonder what kind of soldering iron would be good for a beginner
[23:49] <mrdragons> Eh, I'm not a fan of curl
[23:49] <MystX> mrdragons: alternatives?
[23:49] <mrdragons> Sockets. :P
[23:50] <mrdragons> But actually seriously, for simple http headers I prefer to use raw sockets
[23:50] <mrdragons> Much more control
[23:50] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[23:50] <mrdragons> What?
[23:50] <MystX> thats just silly
[23:50] <mrdragons> ...How?
[23:51] <tntexplosivesltd> "for simple http headers I just over-complicate it"
[23:51] <mrdragons> No, using curl is overcomplicating it
[23:51] <mrdragons> Sockets aren't hard to use
[23:51] <tntexplosivesltd> ut;s dealing with more than headers in this case
[23:51] <tntexplosivesltd> * it's
[23:52] <mrdragons> But curl is so clumsy to use
[23:52] <tntexplosivesltd> how?
[23:53] <mrdragons> It just is, I don't like the abstraction
[23:53] <RITRedbeard> boo abstractions
[23:53] <tntexplosivesltd> it just is
[23:53] <tntexplosivesltd> so elitism
[23:53] <mrdragons> Like not being able to get the response to string without a special function
[23:53] <mrdragons> And not being fit for a lot of cases where a page refreshes and changes data between requests
[23:54] <tntexplosivesltd> ut depends on what you're doing anyway. The right tool for the job etc
[23:54] <tntexplosivesltd> * it
[23:54] <MystX> Well curl isnt really the thing to use if you're programming something
[23:54] <MystX> (unless bash)
[23:54] <MystX> python and stuf have libs for that
[23:54] <tntexplosivesltd> for form submissions from the command line, it's perfect
[23:55] <mrdragons> Well yeah, I thought we were talking about like C and stuff here
[23:55] <MystX> But for uploading from the command line/writing cron scripts etc 'curl -F l=<link> netfra.me' is pretty simple
[23:55] <MystX> mrdragons: oh, no
[23:56] <mrdragons> Yeah, from the command line curl is awesome. :P
[23:56] * djazz (~djazz@78-70-243-240-no186.tbcn.telia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:57] <MystX> Riight
[23:57] <MystX> Now you're making sense
[23:57] <mrdragons> Have you tried using curl in C?
[23:57] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[23:57] <tntexplosivesltd> nope
[23:57] <tntexplosivesltd> wouldn't want to
[23:57] <mrdragons> It's a pain in the ass
[23:57] * R` (~RHA@ip7.j-k.kund.riksnet.nu) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:57] <mrdragons> Depending on the case of course
[23:58] <tntexplosivesltd> well yeah
[23:59] * vgrade (~martinbro@cpc2-nrte22-2-0-cust128.8-4.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:59] <tntexplosivesltd> heh

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