#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2012-02-26

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[12:40] * RaspberryPiBot (~PircBot@idioticphotos.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:40] * Topic is '"unofficial" discussion channel for the RaspberryPi http://www.raspberrypi.org/ the $25 computer -- FAQs: http://goo.gl/zny3G -- Wiki & Specs: http://goo.gl/xLrO7 -- logs available at http://srv.datagutt1.com/ -- Bot AUP http://goo.gl/71h0e -- This is a PG13 channel. Please remember there may be kids in here. -- More fun than a speadsheet, Tastier than chocolate dipped bacon'
[12:40] * Set by ukscone on Fri Jan 27 19:13:51 CET 2012
[12:40] -NickServ- You are now identified for DataBot.
[12:40] <Aquilus_> Dark_Apostrophe: Depends on whether the current exhange rates hold.
[12:40] <datagutt> well
[12:41] <datagutt> the custom is for stuff over 200kr
[12:41] <Aquilus_> 35$ = 196.57 NOK atm.
[12:41] <datagutt> the 25$ pi is 140kr
[12:41] <Dark_Apostrophe> Annoyingly, it's -exactly- 200KR
[12:41] <Dark_Apostrophe> Well, yeah, but who wants one without ethernet?
[12:41] <pippin> it's not an option in the first batch anyways
[12:42] <pippin> (to get at model A)
[12:42] <Tobias|> Dark_Apostrophe, depends on what you want to do with it
[12:42] <Tobias|> I wouldn't mind using some without ethernet, given wifi dongles are only a couple of dollars
[12:43] <Dark_Apostrophe> No, but a bit more RAM also doesn't hurt. :)
[12:43] <Tobias|> Depends on whether you're intending to use that
[12:43] <Dark_Apostrophe> Well, given the rather minute price difference, I don't see why not
[12:44] <datagutt> The extra costs wont be that high though, since its exactly at 200kr
[12:44] * afents is now known as ahven
[12:45] <Dark_Apostrophe> Hope so... I've had dealings with those customs scum before, wouldn't trust them with anything
[12:45] <Tobias|> Minute? not at all :/
[12:46] <Dark_Apostrophe> Wonder if the R.Pi webshop allows for marking a package as gift, or writing a false value on it
[12:46] <Tobias|> A 40% price increase is pretty significant, in my opinion
[12:46] <ahven> the last update post shouldn't have come with a possibility to comment - just a burden on the server resources :)
[12:46] <ahven> all the questions are already covered by the faq/wiki anyway :P
[12:47] <Aquilus_> Dark_Apostrophe: As long as it's released before the exchange rates fluctuate too much, we'll be fine :p
[12:47] <Dark_Apostrophe> Hope you're right :)
[12:47] * Lego399 (02692536@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[12:47] <ShiftPlusOne> are there any decent, cheap laptops which don't come with windows and have good linux support?
[12:48] <Dark_Apostrophe> system76?
[12:48] <Dark_Apostrophe> Probably not cheap, though.
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> ShiftPlusOne: very, very, very few.
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> ShiftPlusOne: 99.9% or so come with windows.
[12:48] <Dark_Apostrophe> www.system76.com
[12:48] <ShiftPlusOne> Dark_Apostrophe, checking it out, thanks
[12:49] <ShiftPlusOne> SpeedEvil, I guess it doesn't matter if it comes with windows... I just figured I could save without having the crapware bundled.
[12:49] <victhor> try to return the windows license. I know you can do it where I live
[12:50] <ShiftPlusOne> hmm
[12:51] <ShiftPlusOne> doesn't look like an option here without going through court
[12:52] <ShiftPlusOne> "Here's an incredible story of how one Linux user got his money back for the Windows pre-installed on the laptop he bought. He used the fact the Microsoft Software License Agreement allows you to return the software if you do not agree to its terms"
[12:52] <ShiftPlusOne> .... an incredible story
[12:52] <rishi> :-)
[12:52] <ShiftPlusOne> and that was in 1998
[12:53] <victhor> I think the drill consisted in contacting MS, saying you don't agree with the EULA and wish to return the bundled software
[12:54] * afief (~quassel@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[12:54] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, does the EULA still say you can return the software though?
[12:54] <WASDx> Is anything confirmed about powering a usb-harddrive?
[12:54] <ShiftPlusOne> I mean, I'll give it a go, but it hasn't made it into common law yet
[12:56] * uen| is now known as uen
[12:58] <ShiftPlusOne> Dark_Apostrophe, do you have a system76 laptop?
[12:58] <Dark_Apostrophe> I wish... got a shitty Asus
[12:59] <ShiftPlusOne> I've had pretty good experience with Asus products. Any idea who the manufacturer for system76 is?
[12:59] <Dark_Apostrophe> One brand I'll surely never buy again
[12:59] <Dark_Apostrophe> No idea
[12:59] <Dark_Apostrophe> I'm guessing they assemble them themselves
[13:00] <ShiftPlusOne> doubt it.... they'd probably customize them, but the motherboard+case would be obtained from one of the big manufacturers
[13:00] <victhor> I have seen the keyboard on the 14" laptop (with a windows logo) on another laptop
[13:01] <victhor> that laptop was probably made by a company like quanta, compal, etc
[13:01] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah
[13:01] <Dark_Apostrophe> Why do you ask? Is there a great deal of significance?
[13:02] <victhor> nope. just that there's nothing special on that laptop
[13:02] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah, so I can compare to the other brands which get their laptops from the same manufacturer. Should be a good indicator of the quality.
[13:03] <Dark_Apostrophe> Hmm... good idea
[13:03] <ShiftPlusOne> and comparing the prices wouldn't be a bad idea... if they use "we don't bundle with windows" as a selling point and mark it up then that defeats the point.
[13:03] <Dark_Apostrophe> Wonder who manufactured this for Asus (unless they did it themselves)
[13:04] <ShiftPlusOne> nuh, Asus comps are done by someone else
[13:04] <Dark_Apostrophe> Who? Foxconn?
[13:04] <ShiftPlusOne> there was a site which listed the common manufacturers and their clients... I'll see if I can find it
[13:04] <Dark_Apostrophe> Tip: Avoid the model U35Jc like a plague. :P
[13:04] <victhor> I always had asus laptops recommended to me
[13:04] <ShiftPlusOne> Dark_Apostrophe, what's so bad about it?
[13:04] <Dark_Apostrophe> so did I, until I bought this thing
[13:05] <ShiftPlusOne> Yeah, I've always liked asus... I would've probably bought an Asus laptop.... but doing some research first
[13:06] <ShiftPlusOne> "Foxconn sells to Asus, Dell, HP and Apple"
[13:06] <ShiftPlusOne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laptop_brands_and_manufacturers#Original_Design_Manufacturers_.28ODMs.29
[13:06] <ShiftPlusOne> Pegatron (former manufacturing & design division of Asus) sells to Asus, Toshiba, Apple, Dell and Acer
[13:07] <Dark_Apostrophe> The main failure is the touchpad; in Windows it causes BSODs, in Linux it sometimes freezes up requiring a reboot (nope, deleting a module and modprobing does nothing) to get started again. Sent it to Asus for repairs, they said they fixed it and returned it - but it didn't help, and I know they didn't replace the touchpad as some marks on it distinguish it. It also came with a tonne of crapware in Windows, which slowed the
[13:07] <Dark_Apostrophe> boot process and made it less stable. The case itself is weak and wobbly, cheap plastic coloured as aluminium. The fan is -always- running. The microphone picks up more noise than signal. Etc, etc, etc. Loads of nits to pick, some bigger and some smaller. But damn, do they add up
[13:10] <ShiftPlusOne> heh... quite a list there
[13:10] <aditsu> is it out yet?
[13:10] <PiBot> aditsu: Any minute now...
[13:10] <Dark_Apostrophe> Oh, the speakers are worse than on the average smartphone, the touchpad left and right click buttons are hard to push down and designed for small fingers apparently, etc. :P
[13:11] <ShiftPlusOne> lol
[13:11] <Dark_Apostrophe> The grill outside the fan is made of plastic, which can't take the heat... the grill bars have literally fallen off
[13:11] <Dark_Apostrophe> To say this thing lacks quality feel would be an understatement :P
[13:11] <ShiftPlusOne> you can stop now
[13:11] <ShiftPlusOne> sorry I got you started =p
[13:11] <Dark_Apostrophe> Yeah, you're right. Felt like ranting about it. :P
[13:12] <Dark_Apostrophe> Basically, I'm done with Asus. :P
[13:12] * rishi (lostcase@gnu-india/supporter/debarshi) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:12] <ShiftPlusOne> Dark_Apostrophe, so why did you recommend system76.... recommended by someone else? good reviews?
[13:13] <Dark_Apostrophe> Because I knew of the name, and I knew they sold Linux-customized machines. No idea where I first heard of them from, though
[13:14] <ShiftPlusOne> wonder if they ship to the rest of the world without it costing a kidney
[13:14] <Dark_Apostrophe> Internationalized keyboards is another issue
[13:15] <ShiftPlusOne> meh... there are always stickers if you need them
[13:16] * Davespice_ is now known as Davespice
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[13:21] <ShiftPlusOne> I am starting to think customized laptops are a rip off
[13:21] <ShiftPlusOne> Multiple Partitions [+$14]
[13:22] <ShiftPlusOne> Multi Boot OS Set up, Up to 4 Operating Systems [+$49]
[13:23] <tracid> Lol. Which manufacturer?
[13:24] <urs> Well, if you're not smart enough to do that yourself, you gotta pay people to do it for you.
[13:24] <urs> I guess that's fair.
[13:24] <ShiftPlusOne> pioneercomputers.com.au
[13:27] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@245-198.dsl.iskon.hr) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:30] * pixolin (~pixolin@p5084F77E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:31] <pixolin> Hi. The FAQ says, I could sign in for a newsletter when the Raspberry Pi finally arrives. Couldn't find a form to register though?
[13:32] <Dark_Apostrophe> it's on the front page
[13:32] <Dark_Apostrophe> Right under the search box
[13:32] <pixolin> I'm l??ooking at rasperrypi.com and under the search box I only find "advanced Search|Search Tips"
[13:33] <Dark_Apostrophe> raspberrypi.org
[13:33] <pixolin> Oh, OK, the FAQ said it would be on raspberrypi.com. Thanks.
[13:33] <Dark_Apostrophe> :)
[13:33] <pixolin> ahh, mailing list, got it. Thanks again.
[13:34] <Dark_Apostrophe> yw
[13:35] <pixolin> ah, now ... I understood "The Raspi will initially only be available to purchase through raspberrypi.com ???if you sign up to the mailing list on the front page " as front page of that .com page.
[13:35] <pixolin> hope I still qualify for a device ;)
[13:36] <Kolin> You've been marked as "Not eligible (nub)"
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[13:37] <Dark_Apostrophe> And here I thought part of the point of the Rpi is to have an inexpensive system for learning computers ;D
[13:37] <pixolin> Kolin: :D
[13:37] <Kolin> naaa, thats just a cover story Dark_Apostrophe
[13:38] <pixolin> but ....?
[13:38] <Dark_Apostrophe> What's the real story? That you're building a worldwide beowulf cluster of ARM machines secretly working on some plot?
[13:38] <Kolin> yeah word domination
[13:38] <ShiftPlusOne> yup... a plot to build the most useless cluster.
[13:39] * KrimZon_2 (~krimzon2@super.duper.reetleet.org) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:39] <pixolin> Word Domination? as Micro$oft? ;)
[13:40] <Dark_Apostrophe> Indeed, it's a power point
[13:41] <pixolin> actually I just stumbled upon an article that mentioned the TP-Link Router TL-MR3020 which runs on the Linux Distribution OpenWRT and would allow to run a small web server on low power consumption. But it looks like the R?? would solve my needs more for about the same money.
[13:41] <rm> MR-what
[13:41] * nxo (~nxo@gateway/tor-sasl/nxo) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:41] <rm> http://embeddedtimes.blogspot.com/2011/09/tp-link-tl-wr703n-tiny-linux-capable.html <- this
[13:41] <rm> but still too small RAM
[13:41] <pixolin> very similar
[13:42] <pixolin> I looked at that one, too
[13:42] <ShiftPlusOne> why not run the server on the computer you're running right now? power consumption?
[13:43] <pixolin> oh, well, some nerdish ideas ... and I also need to run a cron job to do some backups on a couple of websites (which actually ist just firing off a curl command without retrieving anything).
[13:44] <pixolin> I tried some wit my existing W-LAN router ... was too dumb to install a cron job so far though.
[13:45] <pixolin> so I thought doing some little experiments with this new machine would be nice.
[13:46] <pixolin> it's affordable, it has better capacities than the TP-Link routers and still runs on low power consumption
[13:46] <Kolin> pixolin: http://cron.io/
[13:47] <victhor> I never enjoyed the concept of using routers as general purpose servers.
[13:47] <victhor> too little RAM, weak processors. NASes are a better choice
[13:47] <pixolin> the cron services I tested so far all wanted to either be payed as much a year as a Raspberry would cost or you would need to re-register every ... weeks.
[13:48] <pixolin> victhor: except you won't get a NAS for 20-30 $
[13:48] <Kolin> ive not tried cron io buts it dosent mention either of those
[13:48] <victhor> used? :P
[13:48] <Kolin> you could just run cron on the webservers though :/
[13:48] <pixolin> Kolin: which again needs to be paid
[13:49] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:49] <Kolin> hmmm
[13:49] <Kolin> your web server dosent support cron?
[13:50] <pixolin> I have some websites running on shared hosting with awfully cheap plans which indeed don't provide a cron job.
[13:50] <Kolin> ahh
[13:50] <pixolin> and I actually don't feel like paying 5$/month extra just to get a cron job on a web server
[13:51] <pixolin> nor can I move the sites ... however ... right now I use an anchron job on my netbook and ... well ... it works.
[13:52] <pixolin> other thought I have is that I work much with WordPress an would love to have a clean install to test out stuff or just look at default settings. for that a local machine would just be perfect.
[13:53] * R` (~RHA@ip7.j-k.kund.riksnet.nu) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:53] <Kolin> it sounds like your creating problems just so you can fix them with a raspbbery pi
[13:54] <pixolin> yes, right, nothing wrong with that! ;)
[13:54] <pixolin> did you never see a gadget and ask yourself what you all could achieve with it?
[13:55] <ShiftPlusOne> I don't see why you can't just do it on your computer though
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> Run cron locally
[13:55] * TonyRogers (~rogers@ladymoor-gate.demon.co.uk) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> * * * * ssh foo@bar rm -rf /
[13:56] <MrWatson> >_>
[13:56] <pixolin> :) I wouldn't see a reason to run that every minute, but ... well ...
[13:56] <victhor> didn't they prevent rm from removing /?
[13:56] <MrWatson> i'm not sure if serious or if SpeedEvil is being evil
[13:56] <MrWatson> (haven't been paying attention)
[13:56] <SpeedEvil> It depends.
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> It can be useful.
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> - I mean remote cron in general
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> clearly the occasions you'd need to run that every minute are limited.
[13:57] <ShiftPlusOne> SpeedEvil, I see what you mean about all the widescreen laptops =/
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> ShiftPlusOne: :/
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> I may be in the market soon for a new laptop.
[13:58] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> I would actually pay a modest - 40%? premium for a decent non short-screen.
[13:59] <pixolin> I didn't search the forum ... any solutions for cases showed up already?
[13:59] <ShiftPlusOne> I am going to do something stupid now and look at what apple has to offer
[13:59] <MrWatson> ha pixolin
[13:59] <pixolin> (I did read though that boxed versions will be offered in summer)
[14:00] <MrWatson> i'm still certain that with enough careful cutting i can use my altoid tin without it collapsing
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> Metalwork is not Jenga.
[14:00] <SpeedEvil> Well - unless you've made a metal Jenga.
[14:01] <MrWatson> lol but i mean without the tin bending inward too easily
[14:01] <MrWatson> because part of the corners have to come off then holes for all ports, etc
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[14:04] <ShiftPlusOne> Macbook pro actually seems like a good choice O_o
[14:06] <pixolin> slightly more expensive than a raspberry ?? though.
[14:07] <ShiftPlusOne> slightly
[14:07] <ShiftPlusOne> but it's shiny
[14:07] <pixolin> its by Apple.
[14:09] <ShiftPlusOne> is there really that much difference between an i5 and an i7?
[14:09] <pixolin> If I look at the photos of the board I see a spot where it says "OK, PWR, FDX, LNK, 10M" ... will this be LED's?
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> probably
[14:15] <DDave> are there even leds?
[14:16] <DDave> i.e. will the first batch have leds?
[14:16] <DDave> or is this a 2ndbatch and up only?
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> Seems unlikely
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> But if you were to populate a resistor and LED, maybe it would work
[14:16] <DDave> the less lights the better ;)
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> full-duplex, link, 10M - all ethernet related
[14:17] * DDave puts black tape over leds..
[14:17] <DDave> I dont need blinking lights distracting me :)
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[14:25] * pixolin is now known as pixolin|away
[14:26] * pixolin|away is now known as pixolin
[14:26] <pixolin> good for a psychedelic effect though
[14:28] <ShiftPlusOne> I remember reading an editorial in IEEE's magazine about how modern computers need more blinking lights because there's a sense of satisfaction from them.
[14:29] <ShiftPlusOne> and I strongly support the 'turbo' buttons
[14:29] * heymaster (~heymaster@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[14:29] <ShiftPlusOne> even if they are only connected to an LED
[14:34] <victhor> I like indicator lights.
[14:34] <DDave> lool
[14:34] <victhor> I don't want my router to have only 1 indicator - power.
[14:34] <DDave> nah, I dont want that either :)
[14:34] <DDave> but the smaller the better.
[14:35] <victhor> the more the better
[14:35] <DDave> Unless its rackmounted stuff..
[14:35] <DDave> is the router & switch in your bedroom?
[14:35] <DDave> :P
[14:35] <DDave> It drives me nuts XD
[14:35] <DDave> if I see the blinking leds :)
[14:37] <ShiftPlusOne> duct tape
[14:37] <DDave> Yep, that'd what I do, no ducttape tho...
[14:37] <DDave> use electrical tape, comes off easier ;) XD
[14:37] <pixolin> at the inspection: "front lights?" -- "work" -- "rear lights?" -- "work" -- "indicator lights?" -- "works, doesn't, works, doesn't,..."
[14:38] <DDave> looool
[14:38] <ShiftPlusOne> heh
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[14:44] <mkopack> Ok, call me crazy, but I totally don't get why some people are constantly refreshing the site, or the shopping site or writing scripts to look for changes to the site every 5 seconds...
[14:45] <mkopack> They've told us repeatedly that they'll send out the email at least 24 hours in advance, and let us know... So why check the site more than, say, three times a day???
[14:46] <mkopack> Idiots... All they are doing is jacking up the hosting costs for the fou darion...
[14:46] <mkopack> Foundation....
[14:48] * DDave (~DDave@unaffiliated/ddave) Quit (Quit: .)
[14:49] <ShiftPlusOne> mkopack, they said they'll send out an email 24 hours in advance? =D
[14:50] <chris_99> i didn't see that
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[14:51] <rm> don't remember specifically 24 hours
[14:52] <rm> but they sure promised to warn in advance
[14:52] <chris_99> yeah
[14:52] <ShiftPlusOne> ah well... an advance warning is good... I was really worried I'd come home from work one day and find that they've all been sold already
[14:53] * jbb (~yeeb@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[14:54] <techman2> will be interesting to see how long the first batch last
[14:54] <pixolin> two days at least
[14:54] <techman2> what do you guys estimate?
[14:54] <chris_99> haha pixolin
[14:54] <ShiftPlusOne> lol.... two days
[14:55] <pixolin> as the price is low and it was announced in the press
[14:55] <pixolin> just one?
[14:55] <techman2> I reckon it will be less than an hour.
[14:55] <chris_99> i reckon 10 minutes at most
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[14:55] <ShiftPlusOne> I am in the 'under an hour' crowd.
[14:55] <ShiftPlusOne> but not strongly
[14:55] <ShiftPlusOne> maybe 5 hours
[14:57] <techman2> alright
[14:57] <techman2> time for bed.
[14:57] <pixolin> 10.000 items is still much.
[14:57] <techman2> pixolin: there are 100,000 on the mailing list.
[14:57] <steve_rox> wouldent it be a kick in the bollocks if they suddenly say "sorry we cant release it we found a systemic devide by 0 error in cpu" or some shit
[14:58] <Dark_Apostrophe> Vapourware awards candidate, then :P
[14:58] <ShiftPlusOne> the cpu has been around for quite a while
[14:58] <ShiftPlusOne> but the 'or some shit' alternative is still quite possible.
[14:58] <techman2> night all.
[14:59] * techman2 (~gj@ Quit (Quit: How come wrong numbers are never busy?)
[14:59] <pixolin> actually I would need a 4 inch widescreen monitor with a high resolution for that
[14:59] <ShiftPlusOne> 'night
[14:59] <ShiftPlusOne> ah, too late
[15:01] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-24-98-202-47.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[15:02] <ShiftPlusOne> alright... just saves myself from buying a mac =)
[15:02] <ShiftPlusOne> *saved
[15:03] <Dark_Apostrophe> Too expensive?
[15:04] <ShiftPlusOne> too expensive without offering anything that other computers in the same price range don't.
[15:06] <ShiftPlusOne> for 3/4 of the price I can get an equivilent laptop with extended warranty and much better specs.
[15:07] <Dark_Apostrophe> Dell's Latitude series is looking good in that regard
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[15:31] <ShiftPlusOne> ok, time to go sleep on it before I buy anything stupid
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[15:32] <ShiftPlusOne> http://pastebin.com/Wb3sZ7bN
[15:33] <aditsu> pixolin: I see you mentioned cases earlier; check out http://elinux.org/Rpi_Cases , I especially like this one: http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/projects-and-collaboration-general/concept-for-a-case/page-4#p44279
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[15:35] <pixolin> aditsu: yes, looks good!
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[15:38] <aditsu> I plan to make my own case though, not sure how yet, and it may turn out fugly, but I'll find a way :p
[15:39] <pixolin> the Lego approach is funny. Just not sure if my daughter will like it if I steal some of her Lego bricks.
[15:39] <mjr> Legos are good for a first pass. Probably want to print something later.
[15:40] <aditsu> I take the lego one(s) more as a joke, I don't see how it could possibly fit well
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Everyone should learn how to work a file, pliers, and saws.
[15:40] <mjr> (the city library is apparently putting up a 3d printing station :] )
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Making small metal cases is not hard.
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> And can be done with very, very little equipment.
[15:41] <pixolin> let me guess ... you need a file, pliers and saws?
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> well - it depends - you can just use a sharp knife in some cases, and fingers, and a bit of wood.
[15:41] <aditsu> I'm thinking plastic, saw, solderer and file :p
[15:41] <Simon-> metal? I just buy plastic cases and file holes in them
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> I should do a youtube.
[15:42] <pixolin> don't forget plasters
[15:42] <Simon-> for one case I put three holes in the small plastic tub an IC came in
[15:42] <pixolin> not for the device though
[15:43] <aditsu> :)
[15:43] <pixolin> can't imagine that the output would look good on my 42" tv screen
[15:43] <Simon-> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lp0/5694517820/in/set-72157626537963355/ :)
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[16:15] <oldman> Has anyone any idea when the Raspis are going on sale?
[16:15] <mkopack> Looks like sometime t his week
[16:16] * imsky (~ivan@c-71-194-152-46.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:16] <oldman> Ah I think there is going to be an undignified scramble for them.
[16:16] <mkopack> They'll post on the site and to the mailing list 24 hours in advance of when they'll be going on sale... So just check those 2-3 x a day
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[16:16] <oldman> Ok thanks
[16:16] <mkopack> Probably... But the 2nd batch shouldnt be more than 2-3 weeks after this first one
[16:17] <oldman> Good so we wont have to wait long if we miss the first release.
[16:18] <mkopack> They said if they sell out I mediately that they would put the second production run order in immediately and it wouldn't take long to get.
[16:19] <mkopack> So figure 2-3 weeks tops for 2nd batch... And itll be a bigger batch
[16:19] <imsky> i better get my board dammit
[16:20] <mkopack> They'll also lift the 1-per person embargo after the 2nd or 3rd batch
[16:20] <mkopack> Imsky: not YOURS till its in your hands
[16:20] * imsky weeps for humanity
[16:21] <oldman> ON a different matter. Will the first release be fitted with the DSI and CSI sockets.I understand that neither will work out of the box but the DSI will only need a small modification to the 'BIOS' which is the first partition on the sd card. Am I correct in this?
[16:21] <mkopack> Old I be heard that too, but seen conflicting reports.
[16:22] <mkopack> I hadn't planned on using either ...
[16:22] <oldman> I need the DSI for an LCD screen.
[16:23] <mkopack> Well, then I would suggest waiting for later batches
[16:23] <oldman> Yes I might just do that.
[16:24] <mkopack> I'm probably going to end up buying 2-3 of these over time...
[16:24] <oldman> Going now thanks
[16:24] <mkopack> 1fir xmbc, 1 for zoneminder, 1 for robotics work
[16:25] <mkopack> K
[16:25] * oldman (~martin@host-78-147-116-35.as13285.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[16:26] <aditsu> I should buy 10 and make a cluster
[16:27] <mkopack> If you are thinking to use them to learn about Beowulf, cool.... Otherwise, a modern quad core x86 box will run circles around 10 Rpi's clustered together..
[16:27] <mkopack> Remember, these things are only like pentium 300s
[16:28] <Dark_Apostrophe> Still, their low price and low performance have great advantages in and of themselves
[16:29] <mkopack> Sure.. Just saying, don't buy 10 of these thinking you are gonna get this insanely fast cluster
[16:29] <Dark_Apostrophe> There are usage scenarios for which deploying more powerful systems is wasteful. Information display screens, for instance, which only refresh an HTML page every minute, or stream a TV channel
[16:29] <mkopack> Yup
[16:29] <Dark_Apostrophe> Basically, glue the Rpi to the back of the monitor/TV, plug it in and it'll run. Can also do background tasks such as downloading stuff via BitTorrent.
[16:30] <Dark_Apostrophe> Or running a web server for internal company systems (small companies)
[16:30] <mkopack> This is good for any sort of embedded application where the typical micro controller type board won't cut it because you need a full OS
[16:31] <Dark_Apostrophe> Indeed
[16:31] <Dark_Apostrophe> All kinds of usage scenarios.. hell, an Rpi + a dirt cheap webcam + some external storage = simple, cheap surveillance system for shops
[16:32] <mkopack> Yup... That's one of my use cases... Zoneminder so I can check in on the dog at home while I'm at work
[16:32] <IT_Sean> ^ put all that in a weatherproof container & hang it inna tree = SquirrelCam!!!
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Dark_Apostrophe: Add a security light, and get a motion activated light
[16:32] <mkopack> Sean. Add solar power :)
[16:32] <IT_Sean> mkopack, yaj
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Add a couple of servos, and get something much scarier.
[16:32] <IT_Sean> *yah
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> A motion activated spotlight.
[16:33] <Dark_Apostrophe> Wonder if the Rpi would be powerful enough to emulate the N64
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure if a motion activated laser pointer is illegal.
[16:33] <mkopack> They do have ir night an webcams but typically don't see very far
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> You can add a more powerful IR light
[16:33] <Dark_Apostrophe> My Samsung Galaxy S (not S2) managed to, barely, but it ran a pretty fat OS with Java running almost all applications
[16:33] <mkopack> Doubtful
[16:34] <mkopack> Dark, I doubt the CPU is fast enough.. Gpu sure, but CPU is the limiting factor
[16:34] <Dark_Apostrophe> Either way, this could easily be a games emulator for older consoles - just use some USB (or USB->Bluetooth) controllers
[16:35] <Dark_Apostrophe> Yeah, I think you're right on the N64... but it could run SNES
[16:35] <imsky> anyone know of cheap capacitive touchscreen displays?
[16:35] <imsky> to hook up to the raspberry?
[16:35] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[16:35] <mkopack> I WAS encouraged when I read that the fedora build was only using like 20-30 MB ram with x up and running...
[16:35] <Dark_Apostrophe> mkopack: What'll the Debian system be like?
[16:35] <mkopack> No idea.
[16:36] <Dark_Apostrophe> I'm always far more inclined towards .deb based systems, but this is a special case
[16:36] <DDave> Same here :D
[16:36] <mkopack> All depends on how much crap they include and make run at startup and how much work they put into reducing memory footprint
[16:36] <Dark_Apostrophe> Well, some stuff one can probably remove via sysvinit
[16:37] <Dark_Apostrophe> or init.d, or whatever.
[16:38] <mkopack> I'll give both a try and go with whichever seems to work better for my needs
[16:38] <mkopack> I've never really gona deep enough into the various Linux flavors to build up a preference for one or the other
[16:38] <Dark_Apostrophe> For me to try Fedora, I'd have to be massively frustrated with the Debian system - more likely, I'd spend time trying to slim Debian down if needed
[16:39] <DDave> Dark_Apostrophe: Heh, im gonna be doing exactly that. Ill be hanging around here :)
[16:39] <mkopack> What's the big difference between them that makes you guys prefer Debian?
[16:39] <Dark_Apostrophe> Probably being unfair, though.. the last RPM system I used was Fedora Core 3
[16:39] <DDave> mkopack: just personal preference..
[16:39] <mkopack> Sure but based on what factors?
[16:40] <mkopack> Packaging system?
[16:40] <Dark_Apostrophe> Well, Red Hat (and thus, Fedora) were built more around business needs. They're not really that good for geeking around with, at least that's my very outdated impression
[16:40] <mkopack> Standard install?
[16:40] <DDave> Hmm, how to put it..Yeah I like the packaging system
[16:40] <DDave> I like the way the structure is
[16:40] <Dark_Apostrophe> The packaging system is a special case; RPM is very slow and bloated, and dependency hell is quite common
[16:40] <DDave> its pretty much personal preference only :) colors and tastes..
[16:40] <Dark_Apostrophe> dpkg/apt solve those problems elegantly, and everything goes very fast
[16:40] <Dark_Apostrophe> But, again, my impressions are very outdated :P
[16:40] <mkopack> Hmmm... Is Ubuntu a Debian-flavor system or it's own?
[16:41] <Dark_Apostrophe> Ubuntu is a Debian fork
[16:41] <DDave> ubuntu is based off of debian..
[16:41] <Dark_Apostrophe> One that was pretty horrible until they shed GNOME - I quite like Unity, so now I use it
[16:41] <mkopack> K... I'm most familiar with Ubuntu, although we use both it and fedora at work
[16:42] <DDave> Dark_Apostrophe: are you going to run X on your debian?
[16:42] <mkopack> I'm more an OSX guy, but use pretty much everything to one degree or another
[16:42] <DDave> Im looking for something slimmed down like the debian netinst..
[16:42] <Dark_Apostrophe> DDave: Depends on what use I find for it
[16:42] <Dark_Apostrophe> If I could run Wayland, that'd be better, though - X is huge, old and bloated
[16:42] <octeris> us ut out yet
[16:42] <mkopack> Thinking I might run out and get an sd card today and set up the qemu to try things out before Rpi day
[16:42] <octeris> woah
[16:43] <DDave> :)
[16:43] <mkopack> Oct: no... Probably this week
[16:43] <Dark_Apostrophe> mkopack: I'll order one right after ordering the RPi... no point in ordering it until after I've actually secured myself one :P
[16:43] <DDave> I already got two right here...ready to be dd'ed :D
[16:43] <Dark_Apostrophe> I also need HDMI, USB power supply, a USB hub, etc :P
[16:44] <mkopack> Well, I figure I can try things out in qemu and get used to the setup and such.... Yeah I need a lot of that too...
[16:44] <octeris> mkopack: <3
[16:44] <mkopack> At least a powered hub... Think I have the rest... Need a power adaptor as well
[16:44] <Dark_Apostrophe> In case I do use X, I'll probably not have it connected to a screen. Which remote desktop system do you think is best for use with both Linux and Windows clients? NX? VNC?
[16:45] <mkopack> Crap... Hdmi also.. Grrr... I'll wait to get that stuff..
[16:45] <DDave> no idea, im really not going to use X
[16:45] <Dark_Apostrophe> mkopack: I'll order it all from dx.com - very slow shipping (Around a month), but dirt cheap + free shipping
[16:45] <mkopack> Never even heard of NX
[16:45] <DDave> try it :)
[16:45] <mkopack> Dark that a us site?
[16:45] <Dark_Apostrophe> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NX_technology
[16:45] <Dark_Apostrophe> Hong Kong
[16:46] <DDave> Yeah,I've ordered stuff from DX too, fucking slow shipping.
[16:46] <DDave> But the cheap price makes it okay for me :D
[16:46] <mkopack> Ah... I'll just go down the street to frys :)
[16:47] <Dark_Apostrophe> Dunno about the US, but here, a regular HDMI cable costs between 35USD and 50USD... too much for my taste. I can get one for like 5-7USD at DX
[16:47] <chris_99> DX have really pissed me off they're ridiculously slow
[16:47] <mkopack> If I look around I can get them for < $20
[16:48] <Dark_Apostrophe> chris_99: You get what you pay for. The shipping is free. :P
[16:48] <chris_99> its far better ordering from random chinese ebayers and the shipping is also free
[16:48] <mkopack> I might also check newegg and see if I can get everything I need from them....
[16:48] <Dark_Apostrophe> chris_99: Perhaps
[16:48] <chris_99> thats what i've found anywa
[16:49] <chris_99> *anyway
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[16:49] <mkopack> Ugh I don't wanna work on my graphics assignment today....
[16:49] <chris_99> outsource it ;
[16:49] <chris_99> * ;)
[16:49] <mkopack> Lol. I wish... I'm actual
[16:50] <mkopack> Ly pretty far with it, just gotta figure out some of these transformations in the notes...
[16:50] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
[16:55] <surrealiz3> is it out ?
[16:58] <chris_99> yes
[16:58] <chris_99> they just sold out
[16:58] <surrealiz3> really
[16:59] <surrealiz3> i see nothing on the shop
[16:59] <surrealiz3> http://www.raspberrypi.com/
[16:59] <surrealiz3> point me to it chris_99
[16:59] <chris_99> its because they've sold out its not there anymore
[17:01] <surrealiz3> chris_99: so you got one ?
[17:01] <chris_99> no i'm only messing they're not out yet
[17:01] <Dagger3> surrealiz3: you could answer your own question with much less trolling involved just by reading the website...
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[17:01] <DDave> :D
[17:02] <surrealiz3> i am trying to find what chris_99 jsut said atm
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[17:02] <surrealiz3> is it out yet ?
[17:02] <PiBot> surrealiz3: Any minute now...
[17:03] <tero> is it out yet?
[17:03] <PiBot> tero: Any minute now...
[17:03] <surrealiz3> so chris_99 : my previous and first question was to the bot , i just forget the yet part
[17:03] <surrealiz3> so redefine your trolling definition
[17:04] * Kushan (Kushykins@s9.rdlbnc.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:05] <surrealiz3> you just lied to me here in public , i guess i can call you a lier right ?
[17:06] <Kushan> ohhh I've just joined this channel for the first time and there's already drama!
[17:07] <zutesmog> surrealiz3 it was pretty obvious it was a joke. Some one asks about every minute if it's out yet.
[17:07] <surrealiz3> not obviuos to me sorry
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[17:07] <Kushan> lol
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[17:08] <mkopack> Lol
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[17:12] <Kushan> hey zutesmog
[17:12] <Kushan> ...is it out yet?
[17:12] <PiBot> Kushan: Any minute now...
[17:13] <zutesmog> ;-)
[17:13] <Kushan> Haha, that's quality
[17:13] <pingec> is it out yet
[17:13] <PiBot> pingec: Any minute now...
[17:13] <pingec> yay
[17:14] <zutesmog> I hope someone remembers to update to bot when it is out. Otherwise some people will be very unhappy - when they ask is out yet. Then don't bother to check the website ;-)
[17:16] <Kushan> nah, because when it IS out, it'll probably sell out within hours so it'll be "when's the next batch due?"
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[17:16] <ReggieUK> I say leave, then perhaps their frustration will teach them to read the forums
[17:16] <ReggieUK> leave it*
[17:16] <zutesmog> ;-)
[17:16] <Kushan> I think you were right the first time lol
[17:18] <Kushan> I wonder what PiBot responds to
[17:18] * futurity (~anonymous@cpc30-cmbg15-2-0-cust1.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[17:18] * FutFutFut is now known as futurity
[17:18] <Kushan> Is duke nukem forever out yet?
[17:19] <Kushan> it out yet?
[17:19] <victhor> yup
[17:19] <victhor> no joke
[17:19] <victhor> :P
[17:19] <Kushan> is it out yet?
[17:19] <PiBot> Kushan: Any minute now...
[17:19] <Kushan> hmm
[17:20] <DaQatz> Bot will be updated with a counter when they announce when the pi will be released.
[17:20] <zutesmog> I hope thats a counter on the number left for sale ;-)
[17:21] <DaQatz> Not sure if i'll make him say more then any minute now, untill the actual release though ;)
[17:21] <DaQatz> The bot will have no way to know how many they have sadly.
[17:22] <zutesmog> i know
[17:23] <zutesmog> If the store uses the same servers they have now, I seriously doubt they will be able to handle the load. It will be fun to watch. And probably not much fun trying to buy ;-)
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[17:23] <victhor> maybe it will be worse than sparkfun on free day
[17:23] <DaQatz> Well they have beefed things up a lot.
[17:24] <DaQatz> If you read the forums, you would see what that have been doing to make them more robust.
[17:25] <DaQatz> Maybe I'll just update the bot to say "They're already out." The moment of release.
[17:25] <zutesmog> I still keep seeing database connection errors on the forums. I also not they use webfront CDN for the main site, but the store isn't.
[17:26] <zutesmog> yet ;-)
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[17:29] <radon5> !list
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[17:30] <chris_99> theyre going to replace the .org with a static page
[17:31] <chris_99> to avoid the DB errors
[17:31] <zutesmog> I am surprised they haven't already.
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[17:31] <zutesmog> It's not like the front page is updated enough that it would be a pain.
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[18:02] <nplus> \quit
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[18:08] <aditsu> wow I'm living in HK and didn't know about DX
[18:08] <DDave> wtf...
[18:08] <DDave> DX is fucking awesome
[18:08] <DDave> :D
[18:09] <aditsu> yeah.. kinda low-end targeted, but free shipping is sweet
[18:09] <ReggieUK> dx is like a semi organised ebay
[18:10] <rm> AliExpress is more like eBay
[18:10] <aditsu> I'm guessing shipping to HK is a lot faster :p
[18:10] <rm> there's also http://www.buyincoins.com/ similar to DX
[18:10] <radon5> Is it cheaper than local electronics market in hk?
[18:11] <aditsu> no, but seems pretty close
[18:11] <rm> and a lot of other sites, focalprice, everbuying, tinydeal, etc
[18:11] <radon5> And focalprice.com
[18:11] <radon5> Goodluckybuy also
[18:11] <aditsu> hm.. they sell shirts too :p
[18:13] <radon5> Anyone here ever buy from aliexpress?
[18:13] <aditsu> even if it costs a bit more than at the computer center, it saves time
[18:13] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:14] <rm> radon5, I do a lot
[18:15] <radon5> Isnt it very easy to get scammed?
[18:17] <rm> just check the feedback history of a seller
[18:17] <rm> and of the product you buy
[18:18] <aditsu> hmm, dx is probably the first site I've seen where I need to sort by price from high to low :p
[18:18] <rm> AliExpress is even better than eBay, because you can easily see what other people who bought this product are saying
[18:22] <radon5> Same as ebay i guess. Dont you need alipay or do a tt?
[18:22] <rm> on ebay I can't see people's feedback on individual listings of products
[18:22] <rm> only per seller
[18:25] * Raedon5 (~BlueBeep@ has joined #raspberrypi
[18:25] <Raedon5> .
[18:25] * radon5 (~Toneloc@ Quit (Quit: Bye)
[18:27] * Toneloc (~Toneloc@ Quit (Disconnected by services)
[18:27] * Raedon5 is now known as Toneloc
[18:28] <Toneloc> rm- dont you have to use T/T or alipay for aliexpress?
[18:29] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:29] <Toneloc> if you get burn by bank transfer- there is no getting it back
[18:30] <Toneloc> *burnt
[18:31] <rm> what is T/T?
[18:31] <rm> I pay via credit card
[18:32] <Toneloc> its also called a wire transfer
[18:33] <Toneloc> where you send money to the seller via the bank
[18:34] <Toneloc> do you use that thing called alipay- which seems similar to paypal, to use your credit card to pay on aliexpress?
[18:35] <rm> no, directly on Aliexpress, it supports Visa and Mastercard
[18:35] <Toneloc> ah, okay-thats handy
[18:36] <Toneloc> ever have any bother with fakes etc. ?
[18:38] * imnichol (~ian@ has joined #raspberrypi
[18:40] <tero> is it out yet?
[18:40] <PiBot> tero: Any minute now...
[18:40] <tero> :)
[18:41] * Hopsy (~Hopsy@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:41] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[18:44] * imsky sets up an elaborate phishing scam
[18:44] <imsky> they're gonna be mine, ALL MINE
[18:45] <aditsu> hmm.. still, the choices on dx are quite limited
[18:45] * octeris (~remd@user-9654ea.user.msu.edu) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:49] <DaQatz> ????
[18:49] <Toneloc> true aditsu- but you will just end up buying stuff you dont need-as i did at the start-but you still save money
[18:51] <Toneloc> aditsu- do they have the large radio stores ( actually places selling electronics components) in HK as they do in china ?
[18:52] <aditsu> I don't know about China, but I've seen a couple of those in HK
[18:52] <Toneloc> ah, interesting - I always wanted to go to one of those to 'stock up' :)
[18:53] <rm> people complain that these days DX takes a long time to ship orders
[18:53] <rm> e.g. 1-2 weeks
[18:53] <aditsu> in the same area they have all sorts of electrical accessories, and there's a big computer center nearby; you can find 50x more product choices there than on dx.com, at slightly lower prices
[18:54] <DDave> o.0
[18:54] <DDave> aditsu: im soooo visiting hong kong!
[18:54] <DDave> :D
[18:54] <DDave> is it nice for tourism?
[18:54] <aditsu> :)
[18:54] <aditsu> yeah it's pretty cool
[18:54] <Toneloc> do people still wear the masks over there?
[18:54] <Toneloc> to prevent virus
[18:55] <aditsu> only those who have a flu
[18:55] <aditsu> the mask thing was only in 2003 for a couple of months
[18:55] <Toneloc> ah, okay- that makes sense
[18:55] <DDave> mh I probably had the last flu
[18:55] <DDave> swine flu, right?
[18:55] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:55] <aditsu> that was SARS
[18:56] <DDave> so if anyone wants antibodies ;) 5? the bottle.
[18:57] <Toneloc> I assume like China, there are many shanzhai cell phones ?
[18:57] <aditsu> yeah you can find all sorts of Chinese phones and tablets
[18:58] <Toneloc> I knew a girl in China- she told me nobody in China buys that stuff- it all goes to foreigners :)
[18:58] <aditsu> haha
[18:58] <Toneloc> Chinese have more sense!
[18:58] <pingec> is it out yet
[18:58] <PiBot> pingec: Any minute now...
[18:58] <pingec> yay
[18:59] <Toneloc> aditsu- ever buy any shanzhai stuff, just for the fun of it?
[18:59] <aditsu> you mean Shanghai?
[19:00] <Toneloc> no, shanzhai
[19:00] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:00] <aditsu> I'm not familiar with that word
[19:00] <Toneloc> ^^chinese word for fake/knock-off
[19:00] <aditsu> anyway, I bought some very cheap computer accessories that didn't work very well, but nothing as serious as a phone
[19:01] <aditsu> oh, I see
[19:02] <Toneloc> yeah, i got some stuff from dealextreme- it was dirt cheap and its operation is either sporadic
[19:02] <Toneloc> or just downright doesnt work
[19:02] <Toneloc> I bought an ide/sata to usb convertor
[19:02] <Toneloc> it never worked
[19:02] <Toneloc> on anyones pc
[19:03] <Toneloc> *anyone's
[19:03] <aditsu> oh yeah, I also had some issues with those things :p
[19:03] <Toneloc> it was actually kind of expensive for dealextreme too
[19:03] <Toneloc> I have seen people posting online- nobody has got it to work
[19:04] <aditsu> I also got a solar+battery phone charger, the phone says it's charging but battery level is going down :p
[19:04] <zleap> is the current high enough from the solar cells
[19:05] <aditsu> it's not about the solar cells, it has a battery inside and can be charged via usb too
[19:06] <zleap> ok
[19:06] * skrock (~martin@c-167270d5.024-74-736b7610.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:06] <aditsu> I don't know if it was imitating another product, but the quality is very low indeed
[19:11] * Hopsy (~Hopsy@ip6-27-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:12] * Hopsy (~Hopsy@ip6-27-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:12] * futurity (~anonymous@cpc30-cmbg15-2-0-cust1.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:15] * mkopack (~mkopack@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:16] <mkopack> Ok, picked up a little SD card reader for my Macbook and a 16GB SDHC Class 4 SD card
[19:25] <haltdef> lolmac etc
[19:25] <tero> is it out yet?
[19:25] <PiBot> tero: Any minute now...
[19:25] * FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com) Quit (Changing host)
[19:25] * FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:26] <Thorn_> pfft
[19:26] <Thorn_> stealin mah liens
[19:26] <Thorn_> lines
[19:26] <br0kenpipe> which sd class is recommend?
[19:26] * Artanis (~nolodigo@ Quit ()
[19:26] <haltdef> sd class isn't relevant in the slightest to performance while running an OS on it
[19:27] <haltdef> which is great fun, nobody tends to benchmark SD cards thouroughly
[19:28] * Foxhoundz (~Fujitsu@adsl-75-47-104-56.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:28] <Foxhoundz> Is it out yet?
[19:28] <PiBot> Foxhoundz: Any minute now...
[19:28] <Foxhoundz> Ok.
[19:29] <Kushan> haltdef? REally? The SD Class doesn't affect performance?
[19:29] <weuxel> br0kenpipe: class 10 is problematic due to a bug in the bootloader. class 6 and 4 should be finde
[19:29] <haltdef> it does, but only performance relevant to cameras
[19:29] <haltdef> sequential write doesn't matter to us, random does
[19:29] <weuxel> -d
[19:29] <haltdef> the best I've seen from an SD is 200KB/s, the worst is 5KB/s
[19:29] <haltdef> 7200rpm hard drives do ~1MB/s
[19:30] <haltdef> SSDs to 30+ :P
[19:30] * nxo (~nxo@gateway/tor-sasl/nxo) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[19:30] <Kushan> IOPs and all that jazz?
[19:30] * nxo (~nxo@gateway/tor-sasl/nxo) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:30] <br0kenpipe> thanks! i thought the class identfies the minimum speed (class 6 = 6mb/s)
[19:31] <haltdef> it does, minimum sequential write
[19:31] <haltdef> it just doesn't matter to anyone but camera users
[19:31] <victhor> which is their original application
[19:31] <haltdef> yeah, they were never intended for an OS
[19:31] <br0kenpipe> ok^^
[19:32] <MBS> yeah sucks about the sd random write
[19:32] <mkopack> Yeah, I went with Class 4??? They had a 6 as well for the same price, but I figured 4 would be safer
[19:32] <MBS> how would ssd over usb performance be
[19:32] <haltdef> that is what I'm interested to see
[19:32] <MBS> i know overall performance would suck, but could it get 10MB+ random write?
[19:32] <haltdef> in theory
[19:32] <MBS> though i just sold a crucial m4 64GB XD
[19:33] <MBS> made a profit though, but got it for under 60
[19:33] * mjr (mjr@2001:1bc8:102:60d4:21b:fcff:fe32:5eda) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[19:33] * qptain_Nemo (~qN@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:34] <MBS> this would be nice to have on RPI
[19:34] <MBS> http://www.yaffs.net/
[19:35] <mkopack> So use it...
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> That is for raw flash.
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> you can't get raw flash over SD.
[19:35] <mkopack> Androind used to use YAFFS2, but they've since switched to EXT4
[19:35] <victhor> probably due to the use of eMMC on some devices
[19:36] <piofcube> I bet cloud storage gets more popular as R-Pis are bought up ;-)
[19:36] <mkopack> hehe
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> The 'right' solution is probably something like yaffs - but made so the SD controller doesn't get in the way too much.
[19:36] <mkopack> probably
[19:36] <MBS> ah
[19:36] <Toneloc> with SD cards- dont you have limited read/write cycles until the card is rendered useless?
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> It's a damn shame that SDs do not have a 'get out of the way' mode.
[19:36] <mkopack> yes, but effectively it's YEARS before it's an issue
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> Toneloc: No, it's more complex than that.
[19:37] <Toneloc> really?
[19:37] <mkopack> modern File systems spread the writes around so they aren't all done over and over to the same area of the SD card???
[19:37] <mkopack> It's called Wear Leveling
[19:37] <Toneloc> ^^that i have heard off
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> mkopack: And you're assuming something that isn't quite true.
[19:37] <mkopack> SSD's have that issue as well??? ALL flash memory has this problem
[19:37] <mkopack> Speed? How so?
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> mkopack: SD cards spread data over comparatively small regions - for performance reasons.
[19:38] * Plankalkuel (~paethon@chello213047250034.tirol.surfer.at) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> So you may have - for example - 130M regions.
[19:38] <mkopack> But the point is that it doesn't keep writing to the same cell over and over and over
[19:38] <Toneloc> arent CF cards supposed to last alot longer than SD cards when used as a disk for an OS?
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> This means that you can write the same 'block' with fresh data as little as 1000 times before all cells get one write.
[19:39] <mkopack> The key though is to not let the flash memory be super full??? the FS needs free space to spread around the writes to.
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> It varies significantly with filesystem.
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> And you tend to get 'hot' blocks.
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> For example, directory blocks.
[19:39] <victhor> my experience with flash media has generally been positive. I have a cheap SD that is corrupting data, about 2 years old, and a 5-6 years old MS Pro that works perfectly, even with somewhat good usage.
[19:39] <mkopack> true
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> The other really, really icky problem is that SD doesn't have SMART.
[19:40] <victhor> OK, the MS Pro usage (camera) is pretty favorable to its wear leveling algorithm, I suppose
[19:40] <mkopack> A lot of it depends on your usage pattern, the OS, the FS, etc.
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> It just dies in wierd manners.
[19:40] <haltdef> SD should not be used for an OS, basically
[19:40] <haltdef> :P
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> mkopack: And importantly, the firmware of the SD.
[19:40] <Toneloc> hmm, I have an SD card that is not full yet, but is write protected-perhaps a virus, or some other issue?
[19:40] <mkopack> yeah, that too
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> Toneloc: A SD card - fullsize?
[19:41] <Dark_Apostrophe> Format it. Problem solved.
[19:41] <piofcube> Toneloc: faulty tab sensor on the sd adaptor?
[19:41] <Toneloc> yes, full size
[19:41] <Toneloc> tab is fine
[19:41] * Foxhoundz (~Fujitsu@adsl-75-47-104-56.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) has left #raspberrypi
[19:41] <Toneloc> back last year- i think I brought a virus to college- that I had caught at home
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> then what piofcube said.
[19:42] <Toneloc> it was spread by autorun on flash drives
[19:42] <Toneloc> if i remember correctly- their was something said at the time that it was disabling some access to memory sticks
[19:43] <piofcube> IIRC some adaptors use software based write protect and others use hardware-based (sometimes controlled by firmware) to sense the possition of the tab
[19:43] * mjr (mjr@2001:1bc8:102:60d4:21b:fcff:fe32:5eda) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:43] <Toneloc> it was a nasty virus- took the IT guys weeks- i think I may have it on this machine again
[19:43] <Toneloc> for some reason- it changes the appearance of the default desktop in XP
[19:44] <piofcube> Toneloc: Wouldn't suprise me if that used some of the code in stuxnet
[19:44] <mkopack> Man, I love these stupid "Fix my PC" commercials where the people say "I got a virus and had to throw out an otherwise perfectly good PC"??? MORONS! Just reformat the damn drive!!!
[19:44] <Dark_Apostrophe> In other words, you can't trust that computer again. Your best bet is to wipe the boot sector and the OS - even then, you might not be rid of it as they can hide in the strangest places, but the boot sector and the drive in general are the most common
[19:45] <Dark_Apostrophe> Toneloc: Tip: http://www.dban.org/
[19:45] <Dark_Apostrophe> Zero fill.
[19:45] <piofcube> ^^^ More so now with bioses getting extra space for guis and all that stuff... YUK
[19:46] <Toneloc> thanks Dark_Apostrophe
[19:46] * ukscone (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[19:47] <Toneloc> yeah, I plan to install linux anyway
[19:47] <Toneloc> Im fed up with windows over the last 2 years
[19:47] <Dark_Apostrophe> Now, you'll probably want to make backups of your files - be -VERY- careful to scan the backups before accessing them. Use a Linux distro with a Windows antivirus app first
[19:47] * ukscone (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:47] <piofcube> toneloc: That would not 100% protect you for some malware that can fire up before your OS does.
[19:47] <Dark_Apostrophe> Well, do the DBAN first, anyway, and be sure to get the boot sector nuked first, then do a clean install of Linux. If it's in the BIOS, you're screwed - flashing might help, but it might not
[19:48] <Toneloc> hey, im not that worried really
[19:48] <Toneloc> as long as it runs
[19:48] * piofcube sobs in his beer... only to realise he has no beer.
[19:48] <Toneloc> Im sure I have had virus/malware from day 1
[19:48] <Toneloc> its windows- its part of life !
[19:48] <Dark_Apostrophe> You might not be worried, but I'm sure the network admins are
[19:49] <Dark_Apostrophe> A virus, especially one that goes beyond mere OS partition installation, can truly screw up a network
[19:49] <MBS> so how important will slow sd card writes be?
[19:49] <MBS> random writes
[19:49] <Dark_Apostrophe> Hum... good question. Anyone got a clue about the Rpi pagefile configuration?
[19:49] <Toneloc> yeah, we have had the network grind to a halt because of a virus before
[19:50] <Aquilus_> Is it out yet?
[19:50] <PiBot> Aquilus_: Any minute now...
[19:50] <Dark_Apostrophe> The network should be set up with Linux switches, routers, etc. and all Windows servers should be run in a VM
[19:50] <MBS> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/microsdhc-memory-card-performance,3011-12.html
[19:50] * Plankalkuel (~paethon@chello213047250034.tirol.surfer.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:50] * xbaf (~xbaf@ip-89-102-105-205.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:50] <Dark_Apostrophe> But, of course, it's an expensive setup - still, it allows for easy reversion to older VM images
[19:50] <MBS> wait woops those are micro
[19:50] <Toneloc> also,there is a very strange issue in our college- where xilinix-(for vhdl programming) read protects our files randomly
[19:51] <Toneloc> it has been doing this for years- and never has been solved
[19:52] <Toneloc> sometimes you can program perfectly on a machine- other times you must abandon and use another machine
[19:52] <MBS> also will usb slow down sd random writes significantly?
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> MBS: No.
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> MBS: It's simply a bandwidth limitation.
[19:52] <MBS> like would it hurt to have a class 4/6 connected via USB, then a UHS-I connected in the SD slot
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> MBS: I get 30M/s to my USB SD
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> USB HD
[19:52] <Toneloc> also, for the first time, I just wrote my first C program in linux and it worked !
[19:53] <MBS> and have OS on class 4
[19:53] <Toneloc> granted it was hellow world- but i was surprised it actually ran- as I dont know linux commandline and such
[19:53] <Toneloc> but, im learning
[19:53] <Dark_Apostrophe> Do you know Windows command line?
[19:54] <piofcube> Toneloc: Good for you... :-)
[19:54] <Toneloc> yes, I know enough to get me around
[19:54] <Dark_Apostrophe> BASH is pretty similar in logic, but is far more powerful
[19:55] <Dark_Apostrophe> dir = ls, del = rm, /options = -options or --options
[19:55] <Dark_Apostrophe> some minor differences
[19:55] <Toneloc> I would like to learn how to use linux- as it seems way more open and not full of restrictions like windows- linux to me seems like the programmers OS
[19:55] <Toneloc> just let me go in and change whatever I want
[19:56] <piofcube> Batch files in DOS can give a lot of power but... BASH so much more for those that know how to use it. I only scratch the surface of BASH TBH
[19:56] <Toneloc> Dark_Apostrophe - i have looked at it and tried it before- I didnt like it, mainly because there was too much to learn too soon
[19:56] <pingec> And it does not have the scary registry :O
[19:56] <Toneloc> learning linux aswell
[19:56] <Toneloc> but for now- i just want something I can write C programs for that do interesting things
[19:57] <Toneloc> linux and GCC fit that bill nicely
[19:58] <Toneloc> I must get one of those pocket references- handy to have on hand
[19:58] <Toneloc> come to think of it- there is one laying around- may only be for DOS though
[20:07] <mkopack> ok, I have the debian image loaded up on this new SD card.
[20:09] * koaschten_ (~koaschten@p5B3A600B.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[20:12] <mkopack> Just waiting on this Ubuntu VM to finish installing so I can install QEMU on it.
[20:12] <MBS> i wish car LCD displays werent so expensive
[20:13] <MBS> wonder how VNC over wifi will be, might try using a kindle fire as a display, lol
[20:13] <Toneloc> you could use lcd displays from portable dvd players, game consoles?
[20:14] <MBS> well would prefer it being touchscreen
[20:14] <zgreg> DSI support should be good for cheap displays
[20:14] <Toneloc> you could add the touch screen film
[20:14] <Toneloc> its not that expensive
[20:14] <zgreg> tablet/smartphone displays are mass-produced and quite cheap
[20:15] <curahack> W000T check out !! https://rpi-developers.com/frs/download.php/11/debian6-17-02-2012.zip
[20:15] <curahack> just finished it :)
[20:15] <zgreg> plus, most modern panels include a touchscreen digitizer
[20:15] <MBS> something like this could work, but still expensive http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/microsdhc-memory-card-performance,3011-12.html
[20:16] <mkopack> cura: Um, What's that?
[20:16] <tero> is it out yet?
[20:16] <PiBot> tero: Any minute now...
[20:16] <mkopack> Is that different than the previously posted Debian image?
[20:16] <curahack> check out that site, I made it
[20:16] <curahack> more info: http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/projects-and-collaboration-general/raspberry-pi-developers-forge-site#p44996
[20:17] * Maccer (~Maccer@ Quit (Excess Flood)
[20:20] * Maccer (~Maccer@ has joined #raspberrypi
[20:21] <MBS> :o
[20:21] <MBS> http://www.mp3car.com/lcd-display/135734-new-7-touchscreen-with-hdmi-input-large-pictures.html
[20:21] <MBS> 7" 1080p
[20:22] <zgreg> 1080p is a bit much for such a screen
[20:23] <zgreg> high DPI is nice, but high resolutions are going to suck on the rpi
[20:23] <mkopack> That, and that high of a res on that small of a screen is going to make trying to read any text a challenge to say the least
[20:24] <mkopack> hitting any of the window widgets will be "fun" as well
[20:24] <Toneloc> btw, what are the chances of getting some flavour of voip on the rpi ?
[20:24] <zgreg> that's not an issue, modern UIs scale well with DPI
[20:24] <mkopack> Anyone try running the Debian image on QEMU?
[20:24] <Toneloc> my cell phone can run sjype- im sure rpi can run some nice slim voip software
[20:24] <zgreg> the real issue is, of course, that the poor rpi will have to render all those pixels
[20:24] <MBS> if i do put a RPI in my car though, wouldnt really put inthing in dash though, so would be sticking out a bit so would need to put that in an enclosure or something
[20:25] <Toneloc> *skype
[20:25] <chris_99> i'm planning on doing that too MBS, i'm going to try and link it up to the controls
[20:25] <zgreg> and even if you don't do any actual rendering, high resolutions will slow down the rpi
[20:25] <MBS> controls?
[20:25] * mnkNja (~monkey@e24-501.gardur.hi.is) Quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it)
[20:26] <chris_99> yeah, the car has controls that are normally used to change the radio station, attached to the steering wheel
[20:26] <MBS> ah
[20:26] <MBS> I have an old crv, if i do it, will probably have it something like a stick on gps thing, on the flatish part above head unit
[20:26] <MBS> http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/ca/reviews/20040615/erin-dash.jpg
[20:26] <zgreg> a 1080p 32bpp framebuffer needs about 500 MB/s bandwidth alone
[20:26] <MBS> not going to rip out double din and put raspberry pi in, lol
[20:27] <chris_99> heh
[20:27] <zgreg> I'm not sure how much memory bandwidth is available on the rpi, but probably not much
[20:27] <MBS> now if i had an old honda civic where i could put head unit at a slot all the way at bottom, maybe
[20:27] <chris_99> i've got an old clio, i think i'm just gonna put the Pi in the glove compartment
[20:28] <MBS> any sound and shit will be done through bluetooth on head unit
[20:28] <Toneloc> hmm, i have just had a naughty idea- I written C programs before for windows that beep the internal buzzer, I assume I can acess the same piezo buzzer in linux - also assuming the shell box im using has the piezo - if i write a program to constanly beep the buzzer- I could really annoy the shell provider !
[20:28] <chris_99> haha
[20:28] <chris_99> i don't think it has a speaker/buzzer unfourtunatley
[20:29] <Toneloc> me neither
[20:29] <Toneloc> but its a nice idea :)
[20:29] <chris_99> yeah
[20:29] <chris_99> so you're planning on getting it put into a datacenter?
[20:29] <Toneloc> imagine doing the beeps from 24 on it !
[20:30] <Toneloc> im already compiling on a shell account
[20:30] * iccanobif (iccanobif@host248-122-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:30] <chris_99> oh sorry i misread what you'd put
[20:30] <Toneloc> probably acess to such hardware things are disabled anyway
[20:31] <zgreg> it should be easy to add a buzzer
[20:31] <Toneloc> yeah, im just wondering if the machine my shell account has a buzzer on it
[20:31] <zgreg> you can use one of the GPIO pins for it
[20:31] <Toneloc> no, no
[20:31] <Toneloc> Im not talking about rpi
[20:31] <zgreg> oh, I get it
[20:32] <Toneloc> btw, sorry- im off topic
[20:32] <Toneloc> is there anyway to detect the prescence of the buzzer in linux?
[20:33] <Toneloc> I assume not- if he just pulled it out of the connector- it cant be known
[20:33] <chris_99> have a look at this http://www.frank-buss.de/beep/index.html
[20:33] <MBS> ive never bothered pluggin in buzzer
[20:33] <chris_99> not sure if it tells you if theres actually a buzzer though
[20:34] <Toneloc> ah yeah, i know of frank and his msp430 adventures:)
[20:34] <chris_99> not heard of him before actuall
[20:34] <chris_99> *actually
[20:35] <mkopack> Those TI Launchpad uC's ? I got 3 of those Dev kits.. At $4 each, it was kind of a no brainer, although I haven't touched them since I ordered them
[20:37] <Toneloc> yes, that is them
[20:38] <Toneloc> well, there are easier microcontrollers to learn
[20:38] <Toneloc> but once you get on to them- they arent so bad
[20:38] <mkopack> true. I <3 Arduino :)
[20:38] <mkopack> Super easy to do stuff with
[20:38] <Toneloc> but say two years ago- they were horrible
[20:38] <mkopack> But certainly a lot more expensive
[20:39] <Toneloc> online info/help was pretty much nil
[20:39] <Toneloc> user community was poor
[20:39] <mkopack> OMG. just booted up Ubuntu 11.10 for the first time??? Holy crap can they try to make it look any more like OSX??? Geesh
[20:39] <Toneloc> help for rank beginner just wasnt there
[20:39] <Toneloc> made it very difficult
[20:39] <mkopack> yeah, I bet
[20:39] <Toneloc> AVR was miles ahead-still is
[20:40] <Toneloc> also, if you wanted something- you had to code it from scratch
[20:40] <Toneloc> not like AVR- probably 1000 samples available online
[20:40] <zgreg> microcontrollers, oh yes
[20:40] <Toneloc> or PIC
[20:40] <zgreg> but note: PIC is probably the worst of the currently available bunch
[20:41] <Toneloc> really, for those- it would be a matter of modifying code rather than writing it
[20:41] <Toneloc> just so much stuff already done
[20:41] <mkopack> I just wish they'd have some official OSX (or even Linux) support for the launchpad stuff. I can't believe how everything is so Windows oriented
[20:41] <Toneloc> MSP430- was like reinventing the wheel
[20:41] <Toneloc> sure it is low power- but did I care when I was flashing LED's ?? Heck no
[20:41] <mkopack> thing with PIC is there's just so much legacy stuff??? So you CAN find info if you need it.
[20:42] <zgreg> Toneloc: it's low power, yes. but nowadays AVR has catched up a lot, and PIC too.
[20:42] * ukscone (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[20:42] <zgreg> the differences are neglibible
[20:43] <Toneloc> sure, my thoughts exactly
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[20:43] <mkopack> yeah, it's mostly a case of what you're familiar and comfortable with at this point
[20:43] <Toneloc> apart from free samples-no point to stay with TI
[20:43] <zgreg> if sleep uses < 1 ??A that's good enough even if you power from button cells
[20:43] <zgreg> and pretty much all modern MCUs can do that
[20:43] <Toneloc> heck, when I do my own stuff- i will probably go with AVR
[20:44] * koaschten (~koaschten@p5B3A600B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:44] <Toneloc> well, TI stuff is actually limited by the battery technology
[20:44] <Toneloc> the battery shelf life isnt long enough!
[20:44] <zgreg> microchip is currently trying to market new PICs with "nanoamp technology"
[20:44] <zgreg> this is really quite ridiculuous :)
[20:45] <Toneloc> TI has a 0.9V mcu...
[20:45] <Toneloc> power supply noise is going to be more of a factor now...
[20:45] <Toneloc> unless you are running off batteries- I couldnt care less
[20:45] <zgreg> this especially so damn ridiculuous because the new sleep mode that only uses nanoamps does not retain RAM
[20:46] <Toneloc> also, MSP430 is oddball at 3.3V
[20:46] <zgreg> so it's... useless
[20:46] <Toneloc> it isnt even 5V tolerant
[20:46] <zgreg> Toneloc: is that really an issue?
[20:46] * imsky (~ivan@c-71-194-152-46.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has left #raspberrypi
[20:46] <Toneloc> well, alot of discrete logic that is around is 5V
[20:47] <Toneloc> so, you need level translations
[20:47] <Toneloc> 5V applied to MSP430= death
[20:47] <ReggieUK> oh noes, not level translations
[20:47] <ReggieUK> is that .... even ..... possible?
[20:47] <Toneloc> zgreg> sounds useless
[20:47] <DaQatz> !channel
[20:47] <PiBot> DaQatz: #raspberrypi #raspberrypi-dev #raspberrypi-bots #raspberrypi-owners
[20:48] <Toneloc> ReggieUK> oh yeah, it is
[20:48] <Toneloc> its not really that bad
[20:48] <ReggieUK> LIES
[20:48] <Toneloc> but
[20:48] <Toneloc> its just an extra step
[20:48] <Toneloc> and makes your circuit bigger
[20:48] * ReggieUK turns on the sarcasm beacon so everyone is clear on things.....
[20:49] <Toneloc> much easier if you could take your 5V signals straight in and be done with it
[20:49] <Toneloc> Yeah, I guessed you were- but this is for the benefit of people who dont know:P
[20:50] <ReggieUK> but level conversion is a triviality in the scheme of things with electronics
[20:50] <Toneloc> yeah, sure it is
[20:50] <Toneloc> also, i assume it woudl have been trivial for TI to have made the msp430 5V tolerant
[20:51] <Toneloc> but no...
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[20:51] <ReggieUK> I guess they just gave people to much credit to sort it out themselves
[20:51] <ReggieUK> considering a lot of parts are moving to 3.3v and even 1.8
[20:52] <Toneloc> would have been nice to have been able to run it off 5V, as sometimes the rest of the design is running of 5V
[20:52] <Toneloc> already
[20:52] <mkopack> Yeah, biggest headache with robotics right now is making sure you order parts that work at the right voltage level...
[20:52] <mkopack> PITA when you're stuck having to mix 5V with 3.3 with 1.8
[20:52] <Toneloc> ^^^ my sen6timents exactly
[20:52] <Toneloc> *sentiments
[20:54] <Toneloc> ReggieUK> I know it may seem im making a big thing out of nothing- but these are thing I hear people commonly complain about the msp430 and when you couple this together with other annoyances of the msp430 line - it just gives you bad feelings towards the devices
[20:54] <ReggieUK> yet there are plenty of people and projects that just deal with it
[20:54] <Toneloc> sure, I have had to
[20:55] <Toneloc> its just part of life
[20:55] <Toneloc> I was forced to use msp430
[20:56] <Toneloc> also, I bought an ez430 programmer stick for 25 euro about 1.5 years ago - and during the summer TI just disabled it in the software
[20:57] <Toneloc> so now, it is useless- unless it can be made to work under linux- i dont know
[20:57] <ReggieUK> probably
[20:57] <zgreg> the ez430 is basically the same thing used in the launchpad
[20:57] <Toneloc> only good thing I can say about TI is their sample policy
[20:57] <zgreg> and that works under linux
[20:57] <Toneloc> correct
[20:58] <piofcube> So what would you suggest to use instead of the msp430?
[20:58] <Toneloc> I found out I can make the launchpad program my smd devices
[20:58] <Toneloc> so, im still okay for a programmer
[20:58] <Toneloc> AVR woudl be my suggestion
[20:58] <Toneloc> I built my own programmer at zero cost
[20:59] <Toneloc> and had a flashing led coded and working within minutes
[20:59] <piofcube> Ah.. the atmel range
[20:59] <Toneloc> yes
[20:59] <Toneloc> the slowest part was getting the parts together and actually sending the code to the device!
[21:00] <Toneloc> AVR is ver well supported
[21:00] <Toneloc> *very
[21:00] <piofcube> I was looking at them.. mainly because Rapid stock them ;-)
[21:01] <zgreg> not only that, but AVR also has a really good free c compiler available
[21:01] <zgreg> that's not generally true for microcontrollers
[21:01] <zgreg> PIC for instance...
[21:01] <ReggieUK> avr also has gcc support
[21:01] <mkopack> Yeah, I HATE how so many companies charge out the butt for the dev tools to use their hardware??? Kinda seems stupid to me...
[21:01] <zgreg> yeah, I meant gcc of course
[21:01] <ReggieUK> and of course there's avrdude in windows for programming
[21:02] <mkopack> If you want people to buy your parts, make the dev environment decent, cross platform, and CHEAP (or free)
[21:02] <Toneloc> well, to my thoughts: MSP430 is the windows of microcontrollers- everything is tied down, commercial, slightly awkward - people use it, it works, it claims to be best, but just because it works doesnt mean it is
[21:02] <ReggieUK> coupled with an ftdi usb to serial adapter and you've got a powerful system with a programmer that will cost you less than $10 if you make it yourself
[21:02] <piofcube> common sense would suggest more adoption if the dev software was free
[21:02] <mkopack> exactly
[21:03] <DaQatz> Modern common sense.
[21:03] <zgreg> Toneloc: dude.
[21:03] <DaQatz> Old way is bleed everyone for everything.
[21:03] <zgreg> Toneloc: there are MCU lines that are FAR more locked down than msp430
[21:03] <Toneloc> I have avrstudio -and find it great
[21:03] <zgreg> it's not that bad, and msp430 is supported well by free tools
[21:04] <ReggieUK> thing is, they don't build these chips for hobbyists
[21:04] <Toneloc> ^^truth
[21:04] <ReggieUK> we just don't sell enough chips for them
[21:05] <Toneloc> I think AVR is the mcu for hobbyists
[21:05] <Toneloc> which mcu gets used in large volume products?
[21:06] <ReggieUK> I wouldn't although they do recognise hobbyists and don't piss people off (Or do they? Debugwire, PITA if you don't own a dragon)
[21:06] <Toneloc> I have seen alot of Elan mcu in large volume stuff
[21:06] <zgreg> ELAN produces cheap PIC clones, right?
[21:07] <Toneloc> ^^which is an asian mcu outfit
[21:07] <ReggieUK> I would guess that avr get used a lot in the car industry seeing as they've got automotive parts
[21:07] <Toneloc> as far as i can figure out- yes
[21:07] * br0kenpipe (~br0kenpip@p5797EC54.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
[21:07] <Toneloc> ReggieUK> what woudl you use??
[21:07] <Toneloc> *would
[21:09] <ReggieUK> which avr product?
[21:09] <Toneloc> I have never used the PIC- so I cant give an opinion on them, but people seem to be of the opinion they are awkward to use
[21:09] <ReggieUK> atmega 168,328, attiny 45,85, atmega 32u2/4 etc.
[21:09] <Toneloc> I mean, like PIC< AVR< TI etc. ?
[21:10] <Toneloc> ah, you are an Atmel man!
[21:10] <ReggieUK> I'd use avr and have no real opinion of pic/ti having never used either and also use arm
[21:11] <ReggieUK> I've heard that pic is not that well supported with regard to compilers
[21:11] <zgreg> Toneloc: anyway, re: msp430 = windows. if anything, PIC is the windows of the MCU world. ;)
[21:11] <Toneloc> Again- having not used them- I cant comment ;)
[21:12] <ReggieUK> which is a real pity as it's been around so long and always brings a flame war between it and arduino you'd have thought that it would've been very well supported
[21:12] <zgreg> PIC is a major PITA in some ways
[21:13] <Toneloc> ^^this seems to be a recurrent theme
[21:13] <zgreg> PIC is not a single architecture, it's actually 3-4 incompatible architectures
[21:13] <Toneloc> sounds like a bag of fun...
[21:13] <zgreg> the instruction set of the "smaller" architectures is very minimal and does not lend itself to C
[21:13] <zgreg> so code generation from C code is hard to get right and efficient
[21:13] <Toneloc> PIC programmer seem to do C and assembly
[21:14] <Toneloc> or just assembly
[21:14] <Toneloc> never C on its own- something I have noticed over the years
[21:14] <zgreg> AVR on the other hand was designed for C compilers
[21:14] <zgreg> at least the developers claim that
[21:14] <Toneloc> AVR was designed by two students- correct?
[21:15] <Toneloc> i remember reading that somewhere
[21:15] <zgreg> as far as I know, yes
[21:15] * kcj (~casey@unaffiliated/kcj1993) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:15] <zgreg> it's a very modern and very efficient architecture
[21:16] <zgreg> it totally kicks the ass of most other 8-bit architectures :p
[21:16] <Toneloc> yes, also I like the fact that it has such a large user base- which is great when you are flying solo
[21:16] <mkopack> Yeha, it's very beginner friendly
[21:16] <zgreg> it's simply infinitely much faster, flexible and easy to use than traditional 8-bit architectures, e.g. 6502
[21:17] <Toneloc> that brings me onto the 8051
[21:17] <Toneloc> anyone here had any dealings with it?
[21:17] <zgreg> even at the same clock speed, AVR is 2-3x faster than 6502
[21:17] <zgreg> yes
[21:17] <Toneloc> what did you make of it?
[21:17] <Toneloc> reckon its an antique??:P
[21:18] <zgreg> got some of the MCUs from http://www.stc-51.com/
[21:18] <zgreg> I just did a few experiments with it
[21:19] <zgreg> I used sdcc, which is kind of funny
[21:19] <zgreg> this is a "c" compiler
[21:19] <zgreg> just barely, though, it only implements a very specific dialect of c
[21:20] <Toneloc> I heard C doesnt fit the 8051 too nicely
[21:20] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: kthxbai)
[21:20] <zgreg> the architecture has some strange features
[21:20] <zgreg> for example, register banks
[21:21] <zgreg> these can be handy, but aren't really great for compilers
[21:22] * 17WAAVTXH (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[21:22] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[21:22] <Toneloc> btw, I see that company is doing an offer of a free programmer
[21:22] <Toneloc> I know there is next to nothing in it anyway
[21:22] <Toneloc> but still
[21:23] <zgreg> the STCs are horrible to program
[21:24] <zgreg> hardware-wise, it's nothing special - some kind of builtin bootloader
[21:24] <Toneloc> quite a cheap device in single quantity though
[21:24] <zgreg> but they only provide a programming software for windows, written in visual basic, I shit you not
[21:24] <Toneloc> but for hobby- that doesnt matter
[21:24] <ReggieUK> another thing avr has got going for it
[21:24] <ReggieUK> cheap in low volume
[21:25] <zgreg> the programming protocol hasn't been reverse engineered yet
[21:25] <Toneloc> ah, i see....
[21:25] <Toneloc> could be an interesting project
[21:25] <zgreg> needless to say, the programming software is horribly buggy, badly translated from chinese and cryptic to use
[21:25] <zgreg> think about a dialog with hundreds of checkboxes and buttons
[21:25] <Toneloc> well, even from the website youget that sort of feeling
[21:26] <Toneloc> *you get
[21:26] <Toneloc> sounds quite horrific
[21:26] <Toneloc> and I suppose 0 customer support?
[21:27] <Toneloc> btw, do you really need to use their software though?
[21:27] <zgreg> well, yes
[21:27] <Toneloc> could another existing program not be used?
[21:27] <zgreg> the protocol for communication with the MCU is not that simple
[21:27] <zgreg> maybe purposely
[21:27] <Toneloc> but as the protocol is not known- i guess its a real shot in the dark
[21:28] <Toneloc> sounds like it
[21:28] <Toneloc> perhaps the software could be reversed instead?
[21:28] <zgreg> I actually tried to RE the protocol, but lost interest quite quickly...
[21:28] <Toneloc> if it is written in visual whatever- it might not be that strong
[21:28] <zgreg> probably not, but RE is almost always hard :)
[21:29] <Toneloc> probably would be better/easier to buy out the programmers:)
[21:30] <Toneloc> if everyone in the community gave them a dollar to hand over the details- could work nicely ;)
[21:30] * nathan___ (560b32e9@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[21:30] <zgreg> anyway, the microcontrollers aren't that great anyway
[21:31] <zgreg> it's not just the 8051 core, the peripherals suck too
[21:31] <zgreg> and don't get me started on power consumption
[21:31] * zma (~zmac@c2s31-2-83-152-88-41.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:31] <Toneloc> oh right- nothing to write homeabout then..
[21:32] <Toneloc> *home about
[21:32] * zma (~zmac@c2s31-2-83-152-88-41.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[21:32] <Toneloc> i see the shipping makes those dear- unless buying high volume
[21:32] <Toneloc> im away, back in a bit
[21:36] * futurity (~anonymous@cpc30-cmbg15-2-0-cust1.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:42] * nxo (~nxo@gateway/tor-sasl/nxo) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
[21:42] * tsdedst (~tsdedst@bl15-144-230.dsl.telepac.pt) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[21:51] <Toneloc> back
[21:51] * IT_Sean (~IT@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:51] <IT_Sean> Ahoy
[21:51] <Toneloc> hello IT_Sean
[21:52] <Toneloc> all hands on deck ?
[21:52] <Toneloc> :P
[21:52] <IT_Sean> ...
[21:52] <Toneloc> zgreg- apart from a reversing project- really no point to bother with those devices?
[21:56] * br0kenpipe (~br0kenpip@p5797EC54.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:57] <br0kenpipe> so, no shopping this weekend :P
[21:57] <Toneloc> ReggieUK- you said you used ARM- what did you think about it ??
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> Arm varies.
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> It goes from teeny things you can accidentally inhale for under a dollar, to quadcore.
[21:58] <Toneloc> :)
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> The quadcore ones are harder to solder.
[21:59] <Toneloc> well, for general mcu taks
[21:59] <Toneloc> *tasks
[21:59] <ReggieUK> arm is an entirely different kettle of fish
[21:59] <ReggieUK> not always fully supported but usually enough examples from other chips that use the same core to get yourself going somewhere
[22:00] <Toneloc> I guess it fits between mcu and full-out microprocessor?
[22:00] * Dark_Apostrophe (~tDa@unaffiliated/darkapostrophe/x-0983214) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> Toneloc: no.
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> Toneloc: ARM chips exist as both.
[22:00] <ReggieUK> ^^^ what she said
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> The ones you can inhale do not have external RAM interfaces.
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> Only GPIO and a few peripherals.
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nxp.com%2Fnews%2Fpress-releases%2F2010%2F04%2Fnxp-shows-world-s-smallest-32-bit-arm-microcontroller.html&ei=Y51KT-CbK4HN0QWptayCDg&usg=AFQjCNGmGQ1q0ABXW19suE1eu4HVuAJAXw&sig2=52w82OLOhZiCnnw0wm-ENQ
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> gah
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nxp.com/news/press-releases/2010/04/nxp-shows-world-s-smallest-32-bit-arm-microcontroller.html
[22:01] <Toneloc> I understand they come in all varieties - i didnt know that you would use ARM for such low grade tasks though
[22:01] <zgreg> Toneloc: I wouldn't bother. I got those chips for free.
[22:01] <ReggieUK> it depends what you want/need from an mcu
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[22:02] <Toneloc> zgreg- someone else got fed up with them ?
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> Toneloc: It depends. A 8 bit micro might be somewhat cheaper. In some cases - the $.5-$1 per is a _big_ deal.
[22:02] <Toneloc> yeah, in volume
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> Toneloc: If you're making a million - you absolutely want to go with the 8 bit one.
[22:02] <ReggieUK> SpeedEvil, the inhalables look like a 32bit arduino spec wise
[22:02] <ReggieUK> with less pins
[22:02] * azalyn (~junon@modemcable007.174-23-96.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:03] <Toneloc> also, I guess multiple suppliers are a good thing to - so you can hammer out prices
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> If you're making 1000, and the 8 bit one takes 10 times the amount of effort to program, as you have to write your own floating point library, ...
[22:03] <Toneloc> and have a back up supplier
[22:03] <zgreg> Toneloc: nope, that's not it
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> ReggieUK: To a degree - a _lot_ faster
[22:03] * mkopack (~mkopack@ Quit (Quit: mkopack)
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> ReggieUK: Especially if doing 32 bit math
[22:04] <zgreg> Toneloc: this guys pondered if importing those MCUs would be worth the effort
[22:04] <zgreg> /guys/guy/
[22:04] <ReggieUK> oh of course but the feature set and where it's aimed at is very arduinish
[22:05] <zgreg> basically he gave away lots of the chips and tried gathering feedback
[22:05] <azalyn> typo in topic.
[22:05] <azalyn> 'speadsheet'
[22:05] <zgreg> not sure if anything came out of this...
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> At some point free isn't worth it.
[22:06] <Toneloc> zgreg- I was wondering the same, just for doing small runs - he took a good approach. I wouldnt mind havinga crack at trying to reverse the protocl- just for the heck of it
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> A $0 chip verses a $3 chip makes no difference.
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> If you're just screwing with it.
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> Unless you are actually wondering if you can afford the next meal.
[22:06] <zgreg> SpeedEvil: yeah, especially for hobbyists this doesn't matter
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> It's all about the community.
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> Which is almost the main reason why Pi is interesting.
[22:07] <Toneloc> yes, that is it
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> It's a mediochre (for many apps) board that's just moderately cheaper than some of the alternatives.
[22:08] <Toneloc> I havent had this much fun on irc in a long time - its like a free day - everyday:P
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> But if you get good howtos, and ...
[22:08] <azalyn> speaking of reverse engineering, i wonder if the project will get popular enough for people to start reverse engineering the proprietary undocumented bits, like the GPU stuff.
[22:08] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:08] <zgreg> azalyn: doubt it
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> azalyn: In many ways I'm less interested in teh GPU than other bits.
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> On a related matter.
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> Are tehre any high-res board shots anywhere? Of a populated board.
[22:08] <DDave> gpu could be used for small calculations no?
[22:08] <Toneloc> Im wondering what hack for it will appear on hackaday first...
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> DDave: In principle yes.
[22:09] <DDave> IF we had the datasheets and stuff ;)
[22:09] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> DDave: In practice, it's going to be at best considerably more annoying to program.
[22:09] <azalyn> there's way more people out there with the skills to do that stuff these days. ever since nouveau and radeon projects took off.
[22:09] <DDave> I really don't care if its annoying to program. Im sure it's fun :D
[22:09] <zgreg> azalyn: right, but the PC hardware is much more appealing for RE
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> DDave: And the set of problems for which a processor several times more capable than the pi processor can do which the main processor can't, is possibly not huge
[22:10] <zgreg> SpeedEvil: yes, that's likely the most severe issue
[22:10] * br0kenpipe (~br0kenpip@p5797EC54.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
[22:10] <zgreg> GPUs are not a silver bullet to speed up computations
[22:10] <zgreg> many problems are completely unsuitable for GPUs, or parallelization altogether
[22:12] <ReggieUK> Interestingly I've seen lesser cpu/gpu combos than the pi chip reverse engineered for stuff, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility
[22:13] <ReggieUK> but it's only over the coming months whether we'll find out if it's really necessary or has just been a huge distraction all this time
[22:13] <mjr> I don't think the broadcom gpu is particularly interesting. Hopefully the mali guys will be getting somewhere, though.
[22:13] <ReggieUK> a bit like arduino ide or avr c, who gives a shit as long as your project works
[22:13] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8-dev)
[22:13] <mjr> mali/lima
[22:13] <azalyn> well, as i understand it, it's a weird architecture, and the gpu actually inits the system..
[22:14] <mjr> weird, yes, and afaik not _that_ common
[22:14] <azalyn> i'm not sure if this means you need the proprietary stuff to start the system, or if you can just omit it and still have like a little headless server
[22:14] <ReggieUK> the boot strap is just in a different place
[22:14] * tsdedst (~tsdedst@bl15-144-230.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:14] <mjr> the gpu is actually the main cpu, being more powerful and booting the system, the arm core is just an ancillary control core ;)
[22:14] <ReggieUK> the bootstrap procedure just loads a binary
[22:15] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[22:15] <ReggieUK> so as far as I know it's a simple(?) case of replacing the expected binary with your own to do what you like
[22:15] <ReggieUK> not sure what broadcoms favoured method is on arm chips
[22:15] <azalyn> is there a separate eeprom or something, or is it just the sd card that is writable?
[22:15] <mjr> I don't know anything but I wouldn't be that surprised if the firmware was signed
[22:16] <ReggieUK> it will just be the sd card and possibly (probably?) some ram for the bootstrapping
[22:17] <mjr> what with the bug about too fast sd cards, if it's in the initial loader, I kinda hope there's gpu-internal flash so it can be fixed...
[22:17] <mjr> if it's in the second stage, easier
[22:17] <azalyn> wayland apparently had it's first 'release', although it's still alpha or beta or something.
[22:17] <ReggieUK> the talk was in the beginning that the gpu blob would be proprietary and we wouldn't ever get our hands on it as such but we would be able to replace whatever the blob is looking for with our own binaries
[22:17] <azalyn> some people may want to eventually run it on the r-pi. that probably won't be possible as-is though
[22:18] <mjr> ReggieUK, afaik that meant whatever you load on the ARM side, not the GPU side.
[22:18] <mjr> ie. usually the linux kernel
[22:18] <ReggieUK> sure, that's what I mean
[22:19] <azalyn> wayland depends on stuff like kms/gem+ttm/dri2/gallium/etc
[22:19] <ReggieUK> you'll always have to bootstrap from SD (unless there's an undocumented feature that we're not aware of, which is again entirely possible)
[22:19] <mjr> oh, I thought you were talking about bypassing the proprietary loader
[22:20] <azalyn> one thing is for damn sure, people are going to do stuff with the r-pi that the designers never expected/anticipated.
[22:20] <azalyn> heh
[22:20] <ReggieUK> well, the loader loads but we should be able to provide our own u-boot, which might not necessarily be able to reconfigure ram etc. but will allow us to boot from other sources rather than just SD
[22:21] <mjr> boot the kernel from elsewhere, sure, though I'm not sure how much that buys us
[22:21] <zgreg> oh, wayland...
[22:21] <zgreg> I don't see this going anywhere
[22:21] <mjr> (regardless, that SD bug is untouchable by anyone besides broadcom, and if they're not interested, that'll be a bit of a bugger)
[22:21] <ReggieUK> mjr, for development it's a possible bonus
[22:21] <zgreg> mjr: SD bug?
[22:22] <victhor> I didn't know the class 10 bug was on the GPU side
[22:22] <mjr> zgreg, fast SD cards
[22:22] <victhor> I thought it was a kernel driver problem
[22:22] <ReggieUK> nfs boot would be useful for some
[22:22] <mjr> oh, is it?
[22:22] <ReggieUK> or usb booting a kernel
[22:22] <victhor> I don't know, that's what I thought
[22:22] <mjr> I'm not at all sure about it, I just read on some forum page or another that it was in the bootloader stages
[22:23] <zgreg> mjr: care to elaborate?
[22:23] <zgreg> fast SD cards don't work?
[22:23] <ReggieUK> so no arsing around replacing stuff, just reboot, vulcan death pinch on some buttons attached to gpio to tell it to boot from XX
[22:23] <danieldaniel> Did it come out yet?
[22:23] <danieldaniel> Please tell me it didnt
[22:23] <zgreg> danieldaniel: it's all sold out!
[22:23] <danieldaniel> FFFFF
[22:23] <mjr> zgreg, yes. Apparently there is some confusion whether it's due to the bootloader or linux kernel, but that's been an issue apparently.
[22:23] <ReggieUK> mjr, got a link to this bug?
[22:24] <mjr> no
[22:24] <danieldaniel> wait, are you serious?
[22:24] <danieldaniel> :(
[22:24] <ReggieUK> yup
[22:24] <zgreg> well, the foundation surely will be able to fix it
[22:24] <ReggieUK> they sold out this morning
[22:24] <danieldaniel> wow
[22:24] <mjr> (well, confusion at least among us here, the actual rasp guys may know more definite stuff)
[22:24] <ReggieUK> you had to buy a sun newspaper to get one free
[22:25] <danieldaniel> I didn't get the email!!!
[22:25] <danieldaniel> what is this
[22:25] <ReggieUK> wow, everyone else got the email
[22:25] <ReggieUK> last night
[22:25] <danieldaniel> I signed up
[22:25] <danieldaniel> its not here
[22:26] <zgreg> danieldaniel: man, you are gullible
[22:26] <danieldaniel> zgreg: lol
[22:26] <danieldaniel> wow
[22:26] <danieldaniel> y u all so mean!
[22:26] <ReggieUK> why you so sensitive?
[22:26] <danieldaniel> :(
[22:27] <ReggieUK> you'll get an email :)
[22:27] <ReggieUK> can you imagine what it's been like in here for the last few weeks
[22:27] <danieldaniel> lol
[22:27] <ReggieUK> the volume of traffic for 'is it here yet' vs 'stuff you're actually interested in' has risen exponentially
[22:28] <zgreg> you'll get an email PLUS very likely some kind of big announcement a day or so before the sale starts
[22:28] <ReggieUK> and if you're really patient liz will hand deliver it!
[22:28] <ReggieUK> I bet someone would pay good money for that to happen
[22:29] <ReggieUK> the foundation is missing a trick there
[22:29] * web (aefca94b@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[22:29] <ReggieUK> liz, eben and gert hand delivering pi
[22:29] <IT_Sean> Heh
[22:29] <IT_Sean> You think?
[22:30] <mjr> "There are issues with most Class 10 SDHC cards, apparently due to a bug in the Broadcom bootloader" - http://elinux.org/RPi_VerifiedPeripherals , http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/class-10-sd-cards-on-the-production-boards/page-3#p39181
[22:30] * LiENUS (~yes@2001:470:bbb7:ca81:a1f8:7c4f:ceb4:4c5a) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:31] * Doxsee (~Doxsee@75.sub-174-252-169.myvzw.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:31] * web (aefca94b@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Client Quit)
[22:35] <danieldaniel> someone make it out now
[22:36] <ShiftPlusOne> dammit
[22:36] <ShiftPlusOne> I bought a class 10 card =/
[22:36] <piofcube> I hope the cargo ship they are using to transport the PCBs over on isn't taken over by pi-rates *groans*
[22:37] <ShiftPlusOne> heh... i see what you did there =D
[22:38] <Kushan> That's a bit of a shitter, most SD cards are class 10 these days
[22:38] <Kushan> ah well
[22:39] <Kushan> oh, pardon my language
[22:39] <Kushan> I forget IRC has PG channels >_>
[22:39] <DDave> lawl
[22:39] <DDave> well Igot a 4gb SDHC and a 2gb SD (classic)
[22:39] <ShiftPlusOne> it's pg-13, that's fine.
[22:39] <DDave> 16gb class 10 is in my dslr ;)
[22:40] <ShiftPlusOne> You also get one profane expletive of sexual nature.
[22:40] <piofcube> I thought it was PG-Tips... here's me waiting with my pack of digestives
[22:41] * IT_Sean (~IT@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:41] <ShiftPlusOne> I've learned a lot of UK brands just by hanging out in this channel =/
[22:41] <Kushan> The UK rocks
[22:41] <Kushan> it's the best country that starts with a U
[22:42] * SpeedEvil ponders. Ugandah, United arab Emirates, United states, Uzbeckistan, Uraguay.
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> I can't think of any others.
[22:42] <ShiftPlusOne> Sure, but your competition is Ukraine and Uganda =/
[22:42] <Kushan> United States?
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> Oh - Ukrain, yeah
[22:43] <ShiftPlusOne> It has an e! >=/
[22:43] <Kushan> I think it might even be number 1 alphabetically
[22:43] <ShiftPlusOne> it may be a corrupt hell-hole, but don't start steling letters from it
[22:43] <Kushan> oh wait no, Ugandah is 1
[22:43] * IT_Sean (~IT@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> ShiftPlusOne: I'm typing without looking at the screen often.
[22:45] <piofcube> There's U Thant but that's a small island... not many people there that will buy R-Pis ;-)
[22:45] <ShiftPlusOne> ah
[22:45] * skrock (~martin@c-167270d5.024-74-736b7610.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5)
[22:46] * IT_Sean (~IT@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:48] * NIN101 (~NIN@p5DD28B95.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Quit: NIN101)
[22:48] * ShiftPlusOne2 (~Shift@unaffiliated/shiftplusone) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:49] * rafal (~rafal@ip-78-30-105-229.free.aero2.net.pl) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:50] <Ben64> why does iozone give such wonky results
[22:51] <danieldaniel> is it out yet
[22:51] <PiBot> danieldaniel: Any minute now...
[22:51] * ShiftPlusOne (~Shift@unaffiliated/shiftplusone) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[22:51] <Ben64> It says my hard drive does 35MB/s write with 4k blocks
[22:51] <danieldaniel> PiBot: No. Make it get out. NAO
[22:51] <Ben64> but then it does 218MB/s write with 16M blocks
[22:51] <Ben64> which is impossible
[22:53] * ShiftPlusOne2 (~Shift@unaffiliated/shiftplusone) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:54] * rafal (~rafal@ip-78-30-105-229.free.aero2.net.pl) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[22:54] * imsky (~ivan@c-71-194-152-46.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:56] <Kushan> How's that impossible?
[22:57] <Ben64> how isn't it?
[22:57] * imsky (~ivan@c-71-194-152-46.hsd1.in.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[23:02] <Henchman24> magic
[23:04] <Ben64> numbers seem a lot more realistic on sd card
[23:04] * rafal (~rafal@ip-78-30-105-229.free.aero2.net.pl) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:05] <Ben64> 831KB/s 4k random write
[23:05] <Ben64> 7140KB/s 512k random write
[23:06] <Ben64> heh, my hard drive only does 1800KB/s with 4k random
[23:06] <haltdef> that's pretty fast for a spinner
[23:06] <haltdef> mine barely manage 1MB/s
[23:07] * LiENUS (~yes@2001:470:bbb7:ca81:a1f8:7c4f:ceb4:4c5a) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[23:07] <Ben64> its a 2TB 5400rpm too
[23:08] <Ben64> my 1.5TB 7200rpm only does 1082KB/s on the same test
[23:09] <haltdef> my vertex 3 manages 50MB/s <3
[23:09] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@245-198.dsl.iskon.hr) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[23:09] <Ben64> hax
[23:11] <danieldaniel> anyone want to give me a free raspberry pi?
[23:11] <danieldaniel> lol, but how do I pay?
[23:11] <danieldaniel> when it comes out
[23:11] <nrltd> credit card ?
[23:11] <Henchman24> with money
[23:11] <danieldaniel> i mean
[23:11] <danieldaniel> paypal?
[23:11] <nrltd> fuck paypal
[23:11] <danieldaniel> or straight up credit card?
[23:11] <danieldaniel> oh
[23:12] <danieldaniel> or moneybookers
[23:12] <danieldaniel> I just want to be ready
[23:12] <Henchman24> egold
[23:12] <Henchman24> bitcoins
[23:12] <danieldaniel> bitcoins?
[23:12] <danieldaniel> Awesome
[23:12] <danieldaniel> Wait, can I actually pay with btc?
[23:13] <Henchman24> im sure you can find someone that will trade a pi for bitcoins someday
[23:13] <danieldaniel> aww
[23:13] <danieldaniel> BTC, y u no default payment method
[23:13] <danieldaniel> D:
[23:13] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[23:13] <Ben64> bitcoins suck thats why
[23:13] <Henchman24> but will the raspberry pi foundation? doubtful
[23:13] <danieldaniel> Ben64: umadbro?
[23:13] <Ben64> nope
[23:13] <danieldaniel> Ben64: usurebro?
[23:14] <Ben64> they're just stupid, like your face
[23:14] <danieldaniel> Im pretty sure you are mad, bro
[23:14] <danieldaniel> D:
[23:14] <danieldaniel> Ben64: your face is moar st00p1d
[23:14] <Ben64> doubtful, considering i can spell
[23:14] <danieldaniel> D:
[23:15] * rawrmage (~servnix@pdpc/supporter/student/rawrmage) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:15] <danieldaniel> rawrmage: tell Ben64 how stupid his face is
[23:15] <danieldaniel> and how better bitcoins are than his face
[23:15] <rawrmage> danieldaniel: ???
[23:15] <rawrmage> you really suck at arguments, you know?
[23:16] <danieldaniel> rawrmage: lol
[23:16] <danieldaniel> well, I'm better at advertising than rg
[23:16] <danieldaniel> thats astart
[23:16] <Ben64> bitcoins are a triangle scam
[23:16] <danieldaniel> "if the customer isn't going to buy it, then just swear and yell at them; they aren't going to buy it anyways"
[23:16] <danieldaniel> Ben64: umadbro????
[23:17] <Ben64> i already answered that question earlier
[23:17] <Kushan> Ben64 are you saying your HDD shouldn't be able to do 16MB writes faster than 4k writes?
[23:17] <Ben64> Kushan: i'm saying my hard drive can't do 200MB/s writes ever
[23:17] <Kushan> Not in the real world perhaps, but they'll have cache and stuff on it that might skew the results somewhat
[23:17] <Ben64> yeah, i'm repeating with a much larger file that will not fit into cache
[23:18] <Kushan> and it's much slower, no doubt
[23:18] * tsdedst (~tsdedst@bl15-144-230.dsl.telepac.pt) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[23:18] <Ben64> 120MB/s for 16MB
[23:19] <danieldaniel> ProgrammerDude @Raspberry_Pi SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
[23:19] <danieldaniel> 24 minutes ago ?? reply ?? retweet ?? favorite
[23:19] <danieldaniel> lmao
[23:20] * rawrmage (~servnix@pdpc/supporter/student/rawrmage) has left #raspberrypi
[23:22] <DDave> loool
[23:24] <Kushan> so, does anyone know how many Pis are actually in the first batch?
[23:24] <Kushan> And how long between batches?
[23:24] <mrdragons> Is it out yet?
[23:24] <PiBot> mrdragons: Any minute now...
[23:24] <mrdragons> Welp, back to hibernation then
[23:31] <Dagger3> Kushan: the first of those questions is answered in the FAQ. the second is "no"
[23:32] <Kushan> it is?
[23:32] <danieldaniel> lol
[23:32] * Kushan goes to look
[23:33] <Kushan> I still don't see it
[23:34] <Dagger3> it's under BUYING AND SHIPPING -> When can I buy one?
[23:34] <Kushan> ahhh
[23:34] <Kushan> I was looking for a question on how many there were >_>
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> Over 9000.
[23:37] <victhor> literally
[23:39] * Ollzer (~ollzer@87-100-252-171.bb.dnainternet.fi) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:39] * futurity (~anonymous@cpc30-cmbg15-2-0-cust1.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: futurity)
[23:43] <MBS> so how bad would linux performance be if filesystem used a 512KB blocksize
[23:44] <SpeedEvil> very, very bad in most cases.
[23:45] <Kushan> Isn't that a bit...excessive?
[23:46] * rafal_ (~rafal@ip-78-30-123-239.free.aero2.net.pl) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:46] <MBS> well that seems to be erase blocksize of sd cards
[23:46] <DDave> heh so guys
[23:46] <DDave> lets do this
[23:46] <DDave> do you guys think the announcement will be done at about 8am (gmt) ?
[23:46] * rafal (~rafal@ip-78-30-105-229.free.aero2.net.pl) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:47] <danieldaniel> DDave: i hope
[23:47] <danieldaniel> :(
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> MBS: yes - and it will work very well for large files.
[23:47] <zgreg> 512 KB blocks?
[23:47] <DDave> danieldaniel: Ive reconsidered..im getting a first batch. I dont need a case :D
[23:47] <Ben64> you can make your own case
[23:47] <danieldaniel> DDave: lol, nobody needs cases
[23:47] <zgreg> I think most NAND flash uses 128 KB
[23:47] <danieldaniel> cases are for n00bs
[23:47] <SpeedEvil> MBS: But if you just need to write one tiny file - it doesn't work so well.
[23:47] <Kushan> I'm going to guess an announcement on tuesday (after they receive the shipment), floodgates open on wednesday
[23:48] <Ben64> SpeedEvil: wouldn't it work fine, just waste space?
[23:48] <MBS> well wouldnt it be about the same since sd card would have to erase entire 512KB block anyway
[23:48] <danieldaniel> Kushan: If thats the case, I would be mad
[23:48] <MBS> well yeah wasting space but
[23:48] <Kushan> they said they'll give a heads up on when we can order
[23:48] <zgreg> MBS: you are going to waste massive amounts of space
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> zgreg: 512 is probably sane. You can't probably align with the existing eraseblocks.
[23:48] <Kushan> so I'd expect at least 24hours notice
[23:48] <Ben64> how many files are actually <512
[23:48] <Kushan> but I doubt they'll open the store without having the shipment, which only went on saturday, or this monday (not sure?)
[23:49] <zgreg> Ben64: lots of config files, headers, small libraries and binaries, etc.
[23:49] <zgreg> in short: a fuckload of files
[23:49] <Kushan> yeah, loads
[23:49] <Ben64> time to mount debian image and check
[23:52] <zgreg> I can imagine *slightly* elevated block size is useful, but 512 KB or anything like that is madness
[23:53] <zgreg> this will slow down everything and waste a load of disk space
[23:53] * P4R4N01D (~johndoe@ Quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
[23:53] <Ben64> ...
[23:53] <Ben64> 46703 files <512K in the debian image
[23:54] <zgreg> heh
[23:54] <zgreg> so you'd waste about 23 GB? :p
[23:54] <Ben64> yep
[23:54] <Kushan> But can't you fit multiple files inside a single block? I thought that's how it worked, it just meant the entire block had to be erased/written and such
[23:56] <pippin> Kushan: it depends on the filesystem, most simpler ones leave slack in the final block of a file unused
[23:56] <Kushan> Surely RPI's debian distro will use a decent filesystem?
[23:56] <Ben64> 23317 files <4K
[23:56] <zgreg> Kushan: not in ext4, I think
[23:56] <SpeedEvil> There are no optimised for SD filesystems.
[23:57] <Ben64> wouldn't ext2 be faster
[23:57] <Kushan> yeah but no journaling? Are you MAD?!
[23:57] <zgreg> no, why?
[23:57] <zgreg> if you think journaling slows you down, you can disable it
[23:58] <Ben64> journaling on sd would slow it down
[23:58] * kaltoft (~Bo@port59.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk) has left #raspberrypi
[23:58] <Thorn_> who the hell needs journalling in 2012
[23:58] <Ben64> also increase writes
[23:58] <Thorn_> (nobody)
[23:58] <zgreg> Ben64: only for metadata. but again, just disable it.
[23:58] <Kushan> yeah but considering the official way of turning the raspberry pi off is to just unplug it, I'd say journaling is necessary
[23:58] <zgreg> that's a much better (and faster) solution than to use old crappy ext2
[23:59] <Ben64> what do you mean official
[23:59] <Ben64> i'm sure it'll support shutdown

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