#raspberrypi IRC Log

Index

IRC Log for 2012-03-16

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:01] * tomnewmann (~tomnewman@host86-186-52-154.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[0:01] * mikey_w (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:01] * PiBot sets mode +v mikey_w
[0:01] <idakyne> any of the GPIO boards have analog pins?
[0:01] * mike_ (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[0:02] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[0:02] <Flea86> idakyne: I think gert's addon board does
[0:03] * RITRedbeard (RITReadbea@t410xx.student.rit.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
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[0:04] <idakyne> I could do with analog IO for one project I had in mind
[0:05] * Ben64 (~Ben64@cpe-76-175-218-76.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[0:05] <Flea86> idakyne: You can always roll your own board and use SPI to talk to your IO.. :)
[0:06] <mkopack> exactly, just get an AtoD or DtoA and do the conversions as needed
[0:07] * Christian10 (~christian@p4FE1F832.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
[0:08] <idakyne> my electronics is a little rusty at the moment, Ive been playing with an arduino and some simple circuits to try and build some practical knowledge.
[0:09] <mkopack> idakyne: Gotchya. I'm not much farther ahead of you.. Picked up an arduino in the fall and been playing with it to build up a robot
[0:09] <mkopack> but all the arduino does is have an A->D converter built in
[0:10] <mkopack> The analog pins just map to an A->D converter in the chip to turn a voltage level of 0->5V into 0-255 digital value
[0:10] <idakyne> I figured as much , it just makes life a bit easier to get prototypes running to have it all built in.
[0:10] <idakyne> what type of robot are you building?
[0:11] <mkopack> just a little one that does line following, line maze solving, and beacon detection with obstacles
[0:11] <piofcube> Did anyone watch this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUEMc6PlhM Eben talking to Cambridge uni business school.
[0:11] <mkopack> that is, if I can ever get some damn free time away from work and grad school to finish building it and get the software written for it
[0:11] * johnLAPACHE (~lpche@juv34-1-82-225-182-193.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:11] * PiBot sets mode +v johnLAPACHE
[0:12] * koda (~vittorio@host174-212-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Quit: I used to be chatting like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee)
[0:13] <shirro> My dad was a radio/tv broadcast technician, I am an EE dropout so have a lot of the fundamentals down and I have done things like electronics assembly and repair courses and I still find hardware really intimidating. It is so strange how some people take to it and others like me struggle and prefer code.
[0:13] <victhor> some people are the other way around - like me
[0:13] <idakyne> mkopack: sounds cool, I want to build a cnc machine , which in part is why I got an arduino
[0:14] <mkopack> I'm ok on digital. but once you gotta start worrying about power, and capscitors and crap like that, I'm lost
[0:15] <idakyne> Im a software guy, my last electronics experience was about 10years ago in my physics degree.
[0:15] <shirro> victhor: Yeah, it is weird. I really admire people who build physical stuff. I am all aspirational about it but somehow it doesn't work. I think my dad must have told me to put the tools down and get out of the shed one too many times. I really want to get my kids into electronics and most likely robotics as soon as I can.
[0:16] <mkopack> Arduino is good as a first step??? but I'm quickly finding that using the shields only gets you so far??? Evenutally you gotta start building the circuits up yourself to really get what you need
[0:16] <traeak> shirro: it takes both...i find that there are people who can do hardware, people who can do software but rarely can they do both well
[0:16] <shirro> Also my dad told me frequently there was no future in electronics as it would all become unserviceable and disposable and controlled by computers. His broadcast station was destaffed not long after he retired so he may have had a point.
[0:18] <idakyne> shirro:have you ever watched the ben heck show, he is always taking things apart and repurposing them
[0:18] * Ben64 (~Ben64@cpe-76-175-218-76.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:18] * PiBot sets mode +v Ben64
[0:21] * Da|Mummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Happy Now?)
[0:24] <idakyne> anyone have any interesting projects lined up when they finally get there pi.
[0:24] <mkopack> idakyne: Somebody is working on something called a PiDuino, which is a board that gives all the Arduino features, along with the shield headers, plus it has the interface to the RPi over the GPIO pins, and includes a 2A power supply to drive both.
[0:24] <mkopack> Get ROS running on it, and use it on a robot
[0:24] <shirro> Ideal would be an arduino shield compatable board with an RTC thown in
[0:25] <idakyne> I plan on using the pi as the guts of an effects unit to be built into a home built guitar
[0:26] <shirro> Someone design a me logic analyzer board.
[0:27] * EiNSTeiN_ (~einstein@unaffiliated/einstein/x-615171) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[0:28] <idakyne> mkopack:the PiDuino sounds interesting, it would be great to have everything in a single package.
[0:28] <mkopack> there was a video posted.. Google it??? The web site doesn't look quite done though.
[0:28] <mkopack> \
[0:28] <idakyne> mkopack:I'm not sure my dodgy soldering is up to much at the moment
[0:29] * oldtopman (~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[0:30] * andytuk (~andy@cpc26-pete9-2-0-cust153.4-4.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:30] * PiBot sets mode +v andytuk
[0:30] <andytuk> Evenin'
[0:32] <idakyne> andytuk: Hi
[0:32] <sraue> andytuk, i have emailed you, maybe you can test this too
[0:32] * EiN_ (~einstein@216.252.87.107) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:32] * PiBot sets mode +v EiN_
[0:32] <andytuk> Ok- trying now...
[0:33] * Kostic (~Kostic@net24-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:33] * PiBot sets mode +v Kostic
[0:33] <_av500_> sraue: for xbmc on r-pi, what is the video codec api used?
[0:33] * Kostic (~Kostic@net24-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[0:33] <mkopack> evening Andy
[0:33] * haltdef stretches
[0:34] <haltdef> pandaboard arrived today, been manually building stuff for it
[0:34] <sraue> _av500_, its openmax i think...
[0:34] <haltdef> bootloaders and kernel done for now
[0:34] <andytuk> sraue - Still black screen
[0:34] <haltdef> 5 and a half hours zoomed by
[0:34] <idakyne> mkopack: Just watched that vid, seems they were using amateur cnc to prototype the boards
[0:34] <sraue> ok, thanks andytuk we will ask the other one :-)
[0:35] <_av500_> sraue: ok, I feared that much
[0:35] * phi- is now known as mphi
[0:36] <andytuk> sraue : just tried the composite output. Black screen on that too,
[0:36] <sraue> ok
[0:37] <mkopack> idakyne: Yeah. I WISH I had a setup like that. SO tired of doing all my wiring up with wire and perfboards
[0:38] <andytuk> Oh dear, the hard disk in my Dell D430 has started to make horrible noises.
[0:38] <andytuk> Running backup......
[0:38] <andytuk> Sadly, this laptop used a 1.8" hard disk. They are expensive to replace :(
[0:38] <des2> SSDs don't make horrible noises.
[0:38] <mkopack> OMFG I'm going to punch my laptop tonight. F'ing silverlight plugin used to stream my lecture has crash 5 TIMES on me so far in the last hour of class
[0:39] * kilohelo (~freenode_@69.61.67.40) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[0:39] <andytuk> cant get a SSD to fit this one
[0:39] <Henchman21> i got my sdcard ready
[0:39] <des2> Will the last person using silverlight please turn off the download service
[0:39] <andytuk> This is only my Linux laptop - still have MacBook.
[0:40] <mkopack> des: tell me about it. I BITCH every quarter about them using this damn system???
[0:40] <andytuk> My SD card is also ready - and it works :)
[0:40] <des2> Really, I am under the impression there are several SSDs compatible with 1.8" HDs
[0:40] <andytuk> Funny connector on this one. Ribbon cable.
[0:40] <mkopack> a 3 hour lecture requires like 3 GB of data to transfer to play. It crashes all the time, and there's no way to download the lecture to watch it later offline, you MUST stream it every time.
[0:40] <andytuk> Not a standard SATA or IDE
[0:40] <des2> oh.
[0:41] <Henchman21> its an 8GB adata class10 (didnt know there was such a class)
[0:41] <_av500_> probably a standard ZIF
[0:41] <andytuk> Thats dell for you...
[0:41] * oldtopman (~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:41] * PiBot sets mode +v oldtopman
[0:41] <mkopack> The other system they use for some classes allows you to download the lecture as an MPeg4 video file to watch offline later, and it's TINY??? and you can play it in VNC at 2x speed so you can review stuff faster
[0:41] <_av500_> andytuk: is the hdd sata or pata?
[0:41] <andytuk> As you may have guessed, I have been trying to get OpenELEC running tonight on my beta board.
[0:42] <andytuk> SATA
[0:42] * katnegermis (~katnegerm@ip2.c648.frb194.cust.comxnet.dk) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[0:42] <des2> Ah it's an IDE .
[0:42] <_av500_> andytuk: you sure? http://www.hexparts.com/Dell-Latitude-D420-D430-60-GB-18-Hard-Drive-MK6008GAH-KJ609_p_649.html
[0:43] <_av500_> this looks like a IDE with a ZIF connector
[0:43] <des2> Yeah I think it's an IDE with ZIF
[0:43] <_av500_> maybe behind a sata2ide bridge internally
[0:43] * _av500_ has a ton of these drives, but not sure about the size
[0:44] * Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc18-reig4-2-0-cust124.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[0:44] <andytuk> oops, its my D620 thats sata. Too many laptops here...
[0:44] <piofcube> LIF connector
[0:44] <_av500_> andytuk: pm me your email, I'll have a look tomorrow
[0:46] <andytuk> Im off - enough Pi for tonight.
[0:46] * andytuk hides Pi so no one can steal it...
[0:47] <mkopack> Lucky B*stard :)
[0:47] <mkopack> HAGN Andy
[0:47] <andytuk> :)
[0:47] * Slippern (~Slippern@pc5131.stdby.hin.no) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:47] * PiBot sets mode +v Slippern
[0:48] <idakyne> how many people actually have a Pi ?
[0:48] <andytuk> 10 beta boards were sold on ebay
[0:48] <andytuk> I have #7 here with me
[0:48] <idakyne> ah ok
[0:48] <Thorn_> i have the other 9
[0:48] <andytuk> There are a few alpha boards out there too
[0:48] <Thorn_> i'm leasing them to the chinese so they can reverse engineer and sell them cheaper
[0:49] <idakyne> i was thinking that maybe there had been a secret shipment I hadn't heard about ;)
[0:49] <_av500_> yes, but its secret
[0:49] * neciO (~juan@d51A447EF.access.telenet.be) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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[0:50] * PiBot sets mode +v neciO
[0:50] <mkopack> idakyne: relax??? Remember how they ebay'ed off 10 of the beta boards back in Dec? one of the 10 was bought and donated to a computer museum...
[0:51] <mkopack> Andy works for the museum and is doing stuff with the RPi to set it up for a display at the museum
[0:52] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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[0:52] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@246-168.dsl.iskon.hr) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[0:53] <sraue> idakyne: wrong job
[0:53] <idakyne> wow, sounds exciting, I only vaguely remember about the ebay auction. Was pretty busy round december changing jobs and moving house.
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[1:02] <hotwings> [16:48:04] <Thorn_> i'm leasing them to the chinese so they can reverse engineer and sell them cheaper <-- the chinese already have the schematic
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[1:06] * Threepio (~Threepio@mail.blinkmediaworks.com) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[1:06] <des2> Oh sure, the chinese have the schematic but no one else does...
[1:07] <mkopack> How do you think they steal everything??? HELLO
[1:07] <mkopack> Not hard when we HAND them the plans!
[1:08] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[1:08] <hotwings> no one else can do it cheaper. the chinese single handedly control the electronics market
[1:08] <victhor> I think all they need are gerber files and nc drill, etc.
[1:08] * tsdedst (~tsdedst@bl15-107-57.dsl.telepac.pt) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[1:08] <victhor> that's enough to replicate the board itself. The components in it, that should be doable with a functional board
[1:09] <hotwings> go ahead and try to order that arm :)
[1:10] * passstab (~v@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[1:10] * gomiboy (~frodone@ppp-141-138.21-151.libero.it) Quit (Quit: gomiboy)
[1:11] <victhor> so yes you need to give up your details so they can make your product
[1:11] * lars_t_h (~lars_t_h@002128021095.mbb.telenor.dk) has joined #raspberrypi
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[1:11] <idakyne> realisticly would it be possible to build a home brew Pi?
[1:11] <victhor> otherwise, well, how would they know how to do it? :P The schematic is not necessary though
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[1:12] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[1:12] <des2> Well the secret encrypted code is still secret and encrypted
[1:13] <sraue> but they have enough manpower to decrypt this, much faster then americans :-)
[1:15] * courpse (~courpse@unaffiliated/courpse) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[1:15] <Flea86> idakyne: A homebrew Pi definitely falls well into the realm of the professional electronics engineer with experience in complex high-speed multilayer PCB artwork design
[1:16] <Flea86> idakyne: Here's what I've built at home :) http://members.optuszoo.com.au/pioneer10/Flea86_21usb.JPG
[1:16] <Flea86> (well designed at home lol)
[1:17] <idakyne> Flea86:Impressive
[1:18] <shirro> Flea86: You would need to work in the industry to get to that level I assume.
[1:18] * nullvo1d (milkman@108.207.33.46) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:18] * PiBot sets mode +v nullvo1d
[1:18] <RITRedbeard> Flea86, specs plox
[1:18] <RITRedbeard> I like what I see!
[1:18] <Flea86> shirro: It does help, though with a little bit of self-learning & trial/error you can do it at home as well
[1:19] <idakyne> Flea86: I guess what I am getting at is, given that knowledge, is amateur tooling up to the job or is it simply out of reach due to cost?
[1:19] <mkopack> very hard to do multi-layer boards at home
[1:19] * lars_t_h is designing an I??C adapter (Linux kernel code to make it possible to use I??C) for the Pi (BCM2835) = lots of bit maipulations inside 8 registers (32-bit registers)
[1:19] <Flea86> RITRedbeard: http://members.optuszoo.com.au/pioneer10/index.xhtml
[1:20] * klm[_] (milkman@unaffiliated/klm-/x-7727058) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[1:20] <RITRedbeard> Badass.
[1:20] <Flea86> mkopack: Well actually it's not to bad to *design* them at home (even kicad will work!), much harder to actually make the board there however
[1:21] <Flea86> mkopack: I know someone on the #electronics channel who's doing his own 4-layer FPGA board using kicad right now
[1:22] <mkopack> Right, that's what I meant??? sorry if I wasn't clear
[1:23] <Flea86> RITRedbeard/idakyne: ty
[1:24] <Flea86> So point is, it can be done at home with the right knowledge and tools (nobody built working SMT hardware with a dirty iron! ;-)
[1:25] <mkopack> you mean like mine? lol.. I SO suck @ soldering
[1:25] <des2> IHeck all you need is a cheap toaster oven
[1:26] <Flea86> mkopack: Clean up your iron with a nice wet sponge and that'll be half the battle won :)
[1:26] <Flea86> des2: True. Especually so if you're working with BGA/QFN..
[1:26] <shirro> Stuff like pcbcart must change the equation a bit. Can't imagine making modern pcbs
[1:26] <idakyne> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCGzKDTFBSQ
[1:26] * koaschten (~koaschten@31-16-2-45-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #raspberrypi
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[1:27] * EiN_ (~einstein@216.252.87.107) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[1:27] <mkopack> I do that.. and I have that brass tinsel stuff to rub the tip around in, which has helped a ton
[1:27] * EiNSTeiN_ (~einstein@unaffiliated/einstein/x-615171) has joined #raspberrypi
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[1:27] <Flea86> shirro: Modern multilayer PCB's are far too complex/sophisticated to make at home..
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[1:27] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-227-85.dsl.scarlet.be) Quit (Quit: I'm gone, bye bye)
[1:28] <shirro> I remember a talk by Jonathan Oxer about the revelation that he didn't need to buy arduino prototype shields retail but could get them custom made from China.
[1:29] * nullvo1d (milkman@108.207.33.46) Quit (Quit: rebooting)
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[1:29] <Flea86> If one were desperate enough, you could etch a couple of two-layer PCB's and glue them together to form a four-layer board somehow.. but it's just not worth it!
[1:29] * BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[1:30] <mkopack> better put an insulating layer between them before you glue them together or ZAP!
[1:30] <idakyne> Is there any reason you would need to use multi layer PCB's or could you just make do with lots of single layer ones.
[1:30] <Flea86> mkopack: lol yeah normally a thin layer of FR4 will suffice :)
[1:30] <idakyne> apart from the obvious space difference that is.
[1:31] <mkopack> You tend to very quickly find that you need to get a trace from here to there, but you can't without crossing over existing traces...
[1:31] <mkopack> So you either have to use a jumper wire, or another layer
[1:31] <mkopack> The more complex the circuit, with the more traces, often the more layers you end up needing because of pathing constraint problems
[1:32] <Flea86> idakyne: for high-speed designs, board thickness translates to trace impedances etc, which affect the final transient performance of the design
[1:32] <mkopack> for instance, the Rpi is a 6 layer board. They wanted to get to 4 layer but couldn't do it without making the board bigger or changing other things and those added their own costs
[1:32] <shirro> Just looking at the pcbcart site and I can't believe the lead times. China is amazing. Is there a list somewhere of services like that?
[1:32] <Flea86> especially traces that are one layer above a ground plane..
[1:32] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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[1:36] <idakyne> ok so multi layer basically gives you a topological advantage in designing circuits i.e. gives you an extra dimension to play with.
[1:36] <shirro> ok, lady ada (ofcourse). http://www.ladyada.net/library/pcb/manufacturers.html - so what is good simple design software for a linux/mac house?
[1:36] <Flea86> Isn't kicad available on linux?
[1:37] <Flea86> (I'm using it on x86 now..)
[1:37] <Flea86> (oops x86/winblows)
[1:37] <mkopack> there's eagle (I haven't used it, is that just a circuit designer or does it do pathing/layout too?(
[1:38] <shirro> Flea86: was your pictured board designed in kicad?
[1:38] <AdrianG> 6 layer eh
[1:38] <Flea86> mkopack: I've used eagle before and it *used* to come with a free autorouter, dunno about the new versions however
[1:39] <mkopack> if so, I know that Eagle 6.0 works on Mac (I have it installed on my Macbook, haven't used it yet though)
[1:39] <mkopack> I think the free version has limits on board size and # layers
[1:39] <Flea86> shirro: No, it was desgined using eagle, but in reality I should've used something else..
[1:40] <des2> Metal layers separated by an insulation layer is known as a capacitor
[1:40] * imnichol (~ian@8.24.97.104) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[1:40] * IT_Sean (~IT@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[1:41] <Flea86> des2: Extra credit points for giving the other name of that 'insulation layer'
[1:41] <Flea86> :)
[1:41] <des2> dielectric
[1:41] <Flea86> Bingo
[1:41] <Flea86> heh
[1:41] <traeak> ugh i overwhelmed my build tool (darn)
[1:42] <Flea86> mkopack: The 'free' version of Eagle is 2-layers 100x80mm or something like that I think
[1:42] <des2> DesignSpark is a good free PCB layout tool
[1:42] <mkopack> yeah, that sounds familiar
[1:43] <des2> http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html
[1:44] <Flea86> mkopack: I routed flea86 within those constraints, being a high-speed design, I had only one trace layer to work with really, since I wanted the other layer to be ground
[1:44] <mkopack> yeah, for most home use, I think that's a perfectly acceptable constraint
[1:44] * dFshadow (dfshadow@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-hwcdecryclgwjtew) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[1:44] <mkopack> you have to be pretty advanced to need more than that
[1:45] <Flea86> mkopack: That was the problem.. I ended up with a larger board than if I had gone multilayer..
[1:45] <mkopack> right. trading space for layers
[1:46] <Flea86> Though realistically speaking we're not talking a huge PCB :)
[1:46] <mkopack> ok, awesome, aside from commenting the hell out of it, I think my last assignment for class this quarter is DONE.
[1:46] <Flea86> what was your assignment about?
[1:47] <mkopack> Oh, it's stupid??? just had to do a little command line application to do management of a CD Database using a flat file as the DB.
[1:47] <mkopack> The whole CLASS is stupid
[1:48] <mkopack> very beginner??? it's an intro class that they make some grad students take when you weren't a CS undergrad, or like me you haven't been an undergrad in forever
[1:48] * Tachyon` (~tachyon@cpc1-york2-0-0-cust905.7-1.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: Rebooting/Upgrading)
[1:48] <mkopack> the class has largely been a joke for me
[1:48] * dFshadow (~rev@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-wowudvesjdbvyqzn) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:48] * PiBot sets mode +v dFshadow
[1:49] <Flea86> mkopack: I see
[1:49] <idakyne> mkopack: You doing a masters or phd?
[1:49] <mkopack> masters
[1:50] <mkopack> 5 more classes to go after this quarter
[1:50] <idakyne> cs?
[1:50] <mkopack> yup
[1:50] * Tachyon` (hideki@cpc1-york2-0-0-cust905.7-1.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:50] * PiBot sets mode +v Tachyon`
[1:51] <idakyne> How you finding it?
[1:51] <mkopack> eh, so-so...
[1:51] <idakyne> apart from this class obviously :)
[1:52] <mkopack> The theory classes I HATE.. only 1 more of those to go
[1:52] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[1:52] <mkopack> the application classes have been ok, but honestly, haven't gone all that much deeper than what I did as an undergrad...
[1:52] <mkopack> and when they DO go deeper, they blow over it so fast and just throw some math up so you're like "Um, yeah, ok whatever???"
[1:53] <mkopack> So it almost feels more like a survey of the deep stuff to entice you to go do a PhD in that if you want to really learn more
[1:53] <mkopack> But overall it's been ok
[1:53] <mkopack> I wish I hadn't waited 15 years to go back to do it
[1:54] <mkopack> that's made it somewhat hard (particularly the math)
[1:54] <idakyne> you gotta keep practicing maths or it gets easily forgotton :(
[1:54] <mkopack> yeah, and I honestly haven't used ANY of it in years
[1:55] <mkopack> and didn't particularly like it when I was an undergrad??? Straight C's in my math classes then
[1:55] <des2> The whole purpose of computers is so humans don't have to do math
[1:55] <mkopack> But let me do code, and I kick ass
[1:55] <piofcube> idakyne: Yeah, I need to seriously brush up on my linear algebra because of not using it
[1:55] <Flea86> mkopack: Respect for getting yourself back into the pure maths after fifteen years..
[1:55] <mkopack> So, for instance, this graphics class I'm in - the programming projects, I have > 100 on them (there was a couple extra credits), but the math theory behind how they work? F if I understand it
[1:56] * klm[_] (milkman@adsl-108-202-211-133.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:56] * klm[_] (milkman@adsl-108-202-211-133.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Changing host)
[1:56] * klm[_] (milkman@unaffiliated/klm-/x-7727058) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:56] * PiBot sets mode +v klm[_]
[1:56] * PiBot sets mode +v klm[_]
[1:56] <mkopack> thank GOD for Wikipedia! I've had to lean on that for looking back up how to do different things iwht Matrix math and such
[1:56] <piofcube> kahnacademy is great for brushing up on stuff
[1:57] <Flea86> lol most of the underlying maths for engineering goes unused, or is buried deep inside circuit analysis software tools
[1:57] <mkopack> exactly, the tools do so much of it for you now that it's just a headache to have to go back and do it by hand again
[1:57] <des2> Maybe he is afraid to face the wrath of Kahn.
[1:57] <Flea86> For example, anyone here remember how to do long division by hand? LOL
[1:57] <mkopack> KAHN!!!!!!!!
[1:58] <des2> long division, yes, synthetic divisionm no.
[1:58] <piofcube> Now that I do remember... lol.. answer = x with a remainder of y
[1:58] <mkopack> Oh yeah, the basic math stuff, I'm fine at..algebra no problem??? Geometry can be a bit hit or miss, and Trig I sometimes have to remind myself about??? Calc? I'm screwed
[1:59] <idakyne> The thing is you will never be able to learn all the maths you'll ever need.
[1:59] <mkopack> Calc didn't make sense to me when I took it in HS, made even LESS sense the first AND second times I took Calc 1 as an undergrad...
[1:59] <Flea86> yeah same here, point I was trying to make is that we've become all too dependent on calculating machines
[1:59] <mkopack> IT's all about having a GOOD teacher. If you get a good one that can explain it and make it interesting, it'll make sense. I didn't have that
[2:00] <piofcube> Euclid has a lot to answer for ;-)
[2:00] <Flea86> lol
[2:00] <idakyne> Having an overview and knowing how to go about getting the details if you need them is half the battle IMO
[2:00] <mkopack> until I took it the 2nd time as an undergrad??? Then it started making sense??? but then she caught on that she had gotten a rep for being the easiest prof (no, just the BEST one) and so she started killing us in the follow on classes
[2:02] <idakyne> having an engaging teacher is pretty much essential really.
[2:02] <Flea86> mkopack: heh well in my case I was behind the eight-ball in calc when I changed schools and missed virtually six months of it. Thankfully I made up for that later on but it was tough
[2:03] <Flea86> (final-year high school level)
[2:03] <mkopack> yeah, that was part of my problem too??? We moved in 6th grade for a year to a REALLY shitty school district. I didn't learn a thing that year. Then 7th grade back to a good school district and it was like "OH SHIT"
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[2:03] * PiBot sets mode +v |uen|
[2:04] <mkopack> And then we moved again for 10th grade and back in 11th, so it happened again
[2:04] <mkopack> that pretty much turned me off to math altogether at that point. I was always in the advanced math classes and such, but I just came to HATE it
[2:04] <mkopack> NEVER did the homework
[2:05] <Flea86> mkopack: I can understand how you would come to hate it in that situation
[2:05] <Flea86> :)
[2:06] <mkopack> I got a 1 on the AP Calc test! There was MUCH cursing uttered during that exam!
[2:06] <Flea86> lol
[2:07] <mkopack> Honestly, calc basically is what killed my GPA as an undergrad???. Between getting D's and C's in Calc, and then being at least 1 qtr behind in the math needed to do the problems in my physics classes, I was screwed. Totally got all the theory in Physics, but couldn't do the math on the test problems.
[2:07] <Flea86> I probably got the same.. it would be nice if they awarded points for getting one's name right lol
[2:07] <mkopack> So that was 3 more C's.
[2:07] * winocm (~textual@opensn0w/developer/winocm) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[2:07] * uen| (~uen@p5DCB2504.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[2:07] <mkopack> There was 1/2 the credit hours for my degree!
[2:07] <mkopack> You look at my CS classes - 3.65
[2:07] <mkopack> yet I graduated with a 2.9 overall
[2:08] <mkopack> ugh
[2:08] <Flea86> yeah
[2:08] <mkopack> So far with the Masters I have a 3.62
[2:08] <mkopack> Really want to finish with at least a 3.5
[2:09] <mkopack> (JIC I get a bug up my ass and decide to try for a PhD)
[2:09] <idakyne> you doing your masters part time?
[2:09] <idakyne> as well as working that is?
[2:09] <Flea86> ok I gotta run.. laters
[2:10] <idakyne> Flea86: cya
[2:10] * Flea86 (~Flea86@c114-76-82-206.thoms3.vic.optusnet.com.au) Quit (Quit: Station breakdown)
[2:10] <mkopack> yeah
[2:10] <mkopack> work pays for it as long as I get at least a B
[2:10] <mkopack> Not bad getting a ~$40K Masters degree for free :)
[2:10] * winocm (~textual@opensn0w/developer/winocm) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:10] * PiBot sets mode +v winocm
[2:11] <idakyne> can't complain really.
[2:11] <mkopack> Oh, I do! often! but yeah...
[2:11] <idakyne> is that cost per year or in total?
[2:11] <mkopack> All I know is I better get a F'ing promotion after I finish this shit??? That's the whole point of doing it - to make me more promotable
[2:11] <mkopack> total
[2:11] <mkopack> It's about $2700 per 3 credit hour class right now. 15 classes
[2:12] <mkopack> they pay for the books too...
[2:12] <idakyne> academic books are expensive.
[2:13] <mkopack> eh, I haven't had anything too insane yet??? Worst was $120
[2:13] <mkopack> most are like $70 or less
[2:13] <mkopack> I got the one for my graphics class used for $2 on amazon.. the shipping was more than the book!
[2:13] <mkopack> (because it's such an old book and it's the standard that's been used for like 20 years)
[2:14] <idakyne> most I ever spent on a book was ??120 so about $188 US
[2:14] <mkopack> I try to get as many as I can in Kindle or PDF format
[2:14] <idakyne> no kindles when I did my degrees :(
[2:15] <idakyne> dead tree all the way...
[2:15] <mkopack> yeah, I WISH I could get all my books electronics. Makes it SOOOO much easier??? everything on the iPad, easy to carry them all at once
[2:16] <mkopack> ok, and that's the end of my last class for the qtr!
[2:16] <mkopack> Time to get some dinner and then VEG for the rest of the night
[2:16] <mkopack> later gang
[2:16] <idakyne> cya
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[2:16] * PiBot sets mode +v Milos|Netbook
[2:16] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-24-98-202-47.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: mkopack)
[2:20] <idakyne> gotta run , cya later everyone.
[2:21] * idakyne (~Idakyne@unaffiliated/idakyne) Quit (Quit: Idakyne is getting out of dodge.)
[2:25] * chod (~chod@toy-town.demon.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
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[2:26] * PiBot sets mode +v tyooo
[2:27] <tyooo> anyone got the rasp yet ?
[2:27] <Syliss> yeah right
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[2:52] * Kyzz (~quassel@cpe-24-166-81-109.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[2:52] * PiBot sets mode +v Kyzz
[2:56] <DaQatz> I now own the rights to your likeness. If you provide yourself fore view by others, or see yourself in reflection. You thank owe me $3 US for each instance.
[2:59] <piless> no
[3:00] * d3p1 (~pc@unaffiliated/d3p1) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[3:00] * mkopack (~mkopack@adsl-74-190-209-69.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:00] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[3:00] <mkopack> Ok, I lied, I'm back... Sitting at their waiting for my buddy to show up
[3:00] <mkopack> At the bar
[3:01] <piless> he's not gonna show
[3:01] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Quit: The real world is just a crappy game... The ideal world can only be found within a game. Such was my believe. But if an ideal can be found within a crappy game, there may be an ideal route in the real world... for me to discover)
[3:02] <piless> fuck you the real world is the best game
[3:03] <mkopack> Nah, he is n his way... And it's his loss... Lots of hot girls in short kilts with boobs bursting out of their tops here :)
[3:03] <mkopack> Pi???
[3:04] <piless> I disagree with his quit message
[3:04] <mkopack> Ahhh
[3:04] <Tachyon`> that quit message is seriously screwed up
[3:04] <piless> stop bringing your macbook to bars
[3:05] <mkopack> He needs a better A* path planning algorithm implementation for life
[3:05] <piless> its going to get broken or puked on
[3:05] <mkopack> Hehe, on the iPad tonight
[3:05] <Tachyon`> he should read some Nietzsche
[3:05] <Tachyon`> it'd probably make him happier
[3:06] <mkopack> This is a new tilted kilt store... Just opened on Monday... First time I've come here... Sme cute girls... Sme so-so ones
[3:06] * Da|Mummy (~veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:06] * PiBot sets mode +v Da|Mummy
[3:06] <piless> are you an ale man?
[3:06] <Da|Mummy> im a vulgar man
[3:07] <Da|Mummy> but i assure you...
[3:07] <Da|Mummy> my music is not
[3:07] <mkopack> Thats a bit personal, don't you think? ;)
[3:07] <mkopack> Yeah,..
[3:07] <piless> oh
[3:07] <mkopack> I honestly rarely drink, but decided o have a beer tonight after finishing last lecture for the qtr
[3:07] <piless> which beer?
[3:08] <mkopack> Just a miller light
[3:08] <piless> ...
[3:08] <piless> get out
[3:08] <piless> you're an American right?
[3:08] <mkopack> Yup
[3:09] <mkopack> I don't get big on beer
[3:09] * nullvo1d (milkman@adsl-108-202-211-133.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:09] * PiBot sets mode +v nullvo1d
[3:09] <piless> I hear their dogfishhead is good
[3:10] <piless> go order tjat
[3:10] <piless> that *
[3:12] * klm[_] (milkman@unaffiliated/klm-/x-7727058) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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[3:26] * UnderSampled (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-178.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[3:27] <Da|Mummy> miller lite is not beer, never confuse it as such
[3:28] * prebz (~prebz@c83-248-138-253.bredband.comhem.se) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[3:30] <piless> have they got any ciders mkopack?
[3:30] * mkopack (~mkopack@adsl-74-190-209-69.asm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[3:30] <piless> oh :(
[3:32] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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[4:31] <piless> ...
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[4:44] * nullvo1d (milkman@adsl-108-202-211-133.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: rebooting)
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[4:45] * piless (~piless@92.40.254.129.threembb.co.uk) Quit (Quit: bah)
[4:49] <nrdb> anyone got there Rpi yet?
[4:50] <Da|Mummy> no
[4:51] <Da|Mummy> in case you havent looked at website, there were some manufacturer hiccups
[4:51] * phantoxe (~destroy@a95-92-89-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) Quit ()
[4:53] <Da|Mummy> as of right now, take this with a batch of salt, the ship date would be around april the 2nd
[5:00] * piless (~piless@92.40.254.129.threembb.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
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[5:25] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[5:27] * mmattice (mmattice@unaffiliated/mmattice) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[5:29] * mmattice (mmattice@unaffiliated/mmattice) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:29] * PiBot sets mode +v mmattice
[5:30] * User__ (~chatzilla@38.127.159.128) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:30] * PiBot sets mode +v User__
[5:31] * atticist (~akwhawd@87-194-182-81.bethere.co.uk) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[5:32] * User__ (~chatzilla@38.127.159.128) Quit (Client Quit)
[5:34] * prebz (~prebz@c83-248-138-253.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:34] * PiBot sets mode +v prebz
[5:38] * prebz_ (~prebz@c83-248-138-253.bredband.comhem.se) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[5:42] * ashutosh2 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.187.41.mtnl.net.in) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:42] * PiBot sets mode +v ashutosh2
[5:42] * ashutosh1 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.178.15.mtnl.net.in) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[5:46] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5ac9ad1b.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[5:50] * Transformer (~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:50] * PiBot sets mode +v Transformer
[5:50] * Transformer (~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Excess Flood)
[5:53] * RITRedbeard (RITReadbea@t410xx.student.rit.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[5:53] * curahack (~curahack@sub-190-88-93ip28.rev.onenet.an) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[5:55] * AdrianG (~user@unaffiliated/amphetamine) Quit ()
[6:05] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@t410xx.student.rit.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:05] * PiBot sets mode +v RITRedbeard
[6:07] * UnderSampled (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-178.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[6:08] <huene> !w
[6:08] <PiBot> huene: in Linz, Upper Austria. Temp -1??C. Condition: Mostly Cloudy, Humidity: 100%, Later 18??C - 0??C. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[6:08] <piless> !w
[6:09] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[6:09] <Da|Mummy> !w 44060
[6:09] <PiBot> Da|Mummy: in Mentor, OH on Fri Mar 16 02:45:00 2012. Temp 19??C. Condition: Thunderstorm, Humidity: 73%, Later 22??C - 11??C. Condition: Chance of Storm.
[6:09] <piless> !w
[6:10] <piless> !w Antarctica
[6:10] <PiBot> Not found.
[6:10] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:10] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[6:11] * Kyzz is now known as kyzz
[6:11] * kyzz is now known as Kyzz
[6:12] <huene> piless: you have to set your location for "!w" to work. just query the bot with "!help"
[6:12] <piless> !help
[6:12] <Da|Mummy> !w sonsbeck
[6:12] <PiBot> Da|Mummy: in Sonsbeck, North Rhine-Westphalia. Temp 2??C. Condition: Rain, Humidity: 100%, Later 18??C - 8??C. Condition: Mostly Sunny.
[6:12] * Syliss (~Syliss@108.210.165.132) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:12] * PiBot sets mode +v Syliss
[6:12] <Da|Mummy> !w derventa
[6:12] <PiBot> Da|Mummy: in Derventa, Republika Srpska. Temp 0??C. Condition: Clear, Humidity: 87%, Later 17??C - 2??C. Condition: Clear.
[6:13] <Syliss> lulz
[6:13] <huene> piless: <PiBot> Commands: g weather google weather_set w channel
[6:13] <piless> !g
[6:13] <huene> you have to ask him for !help in query, not in the channel
[6:13] <Syliss> ugh i wish i had a tablet
[6:14] <piless> Fuck it
[6:17] * SpeedEvil hands Syliss a tablet.
[6:17] * Syliss dies
[6:17] * SpeedEvil puts away the box of dog-worming tablets.
[6:17] <Syliss> damn it, wrong one
[6:17] <piless> Umm
[6:21] <Syliss> no I'm really wishing i had an android tab or iPad. Takin my laptop sometimes sux
[6:22] <piless> Android tablets suck at the moment
[6:23] * lars_t_h (~lars_t_h@002128021095.mbb.telenor.dk) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[6:23] <piless> There's virtually no tablet dedicated apps
[6:24] <piless> Wait for the windows 8 tablets
[6:24] <Syliss> way too expensive
[6:24] * SpeedEvil stabs piless.
[6:24] <Syliss> plus I'm not a win fan
[6:24] <Syliss> i run osx and iPhone
[6:24] * SpeedEvil stabs Syliss.
[6:24] <piless> Then get an ipad
[6:25] <Syliss> SpeedEvil: lol
[6:25] * SpeedEvil is depressed at the state of the mobile phone, tablet, and PC market.
[6:25] <Syliss> piless: I'm looking for a used iPad 2, i want to downgrade my macbook pro to either a macbook or air and ipad
[6:25] * SpeedEvil looks at his n900 phone.
[6:26] <piless> SpeedEvil: metro looks to be amazing.. Much more intuitive that ios
[6:26] <SpeedEvil> I truly hate the way microsoft is going 'app store' like iphone.
[6:26] <SpeedEvil> ios
[6:27] <Da|Mummy> or like how ubuntu went all unity like imac
[6:27] <piless> SpeedEvil: the px version is going to suck though if you don't have a touchscreen
[6:27] <huene> yeah, unity is crap
[6:27] <piless> Pc*
[6:27] <SpeedEvil> http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/03/09/1243250/microsoft-to-shut-down-app-store-for-windows-mobile?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=twitter
[6:28] <SpeedEvil> Buy software - lose access to it when microsoft isn't interested in the platform anymore.
[6:28] <piless> Yeah but windows mobile is a stylus input os
[6:29] <SpeedEvil> Which is quite irrelevant.
[6:29] <piless> Why?
[6:29] <SpeedEvil> You think they're going to keep other app stores open beyond when they want to?
[6:29] <piless> No modern device uses the resistive touch screen
[6:30] <SpeedEvil> The touchscreen is quite irrelevant to the point I was making.
[6:30] <piless> SpeedEvil: of course.. Think about how long they've were keeping support for xp
[6:31] <SpeedEvil> That's not quite the same.
[6:31] <SpeedEvil> If I want to use XP, I can.
[6:32] <piless> It's exactly same
[6:32] <SpeedEvil> I simply reinstall the app from the original media or download file.
[6:32] <Syliss> i like xp
[6:32] <piless> No., and I'm talking about support
[6:32] <SpeedEvil> I can't do that with the above case in most instances, as the apps are not downloadable anywhere else than the (closed) store.
[6:33] <SpeedEvil> And I don't have original media, as it's DRMd.
[6:41] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:41] * PiBot sets mode +v Milos|Netbook
[6:44] * piless (~piless@92.40.254.129.threembb.co.uk) Quit (Quit: bah)
[6:44] * nighty^ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[6:45] * mjorgensen (quassel@nat/nokia/x-vnbyqwrwcdmqoppf) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:45] * PiBot sets mode +v mjorgensen
[6:46] * shirro (~shirro@pdpc/supporter/active/shirro) Quit (Quit: shirro)
[6:47] * oldtopman (~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:48] * nighty^ (~nighty@69-165-220-105.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:48] * PiBot sets mode +v nighty^
[6:51] * shirro (~shirro@ppp102-6.static.internode.on.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:51] * shirro (~shirro@ppp102-6.static.internode.on.net) Quit (Changing host)
[6:51] * shirro (~shirro@pdpc/supporter/active/shirro) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:51] * PiBot sets mode +v shirro
[6:51] * PiBot sets mode +v shirro
[7:00] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[7:01] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[7:02] * rikai (~rikai@cpe-72-224-108-203.maine.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:02] * rikai (~rikai@cpe-72-224-108-203.maine.res.rr.com) Quit (Changing host)
[7:02] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:02] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai
[7:02] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai
[7:03] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:03] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[7:14] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[7:15] * [deXter] (dexter@79.133.200.37) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:15] * PiBot sets mode +v [deXter]
[7:21] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[7:25] * mjorgensen (quassel@nat/nokia/x-vnbyqwrwcdmqoppf) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[7:33] * Syliss (~Syliss@108.210.165.132) Quit (Quit: Syliss)
[7:33] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:33] * PiBot sets mode +v Milos|Netbook
[7:37] * Laogeodritt (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[7:39] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:39] * PiBot sets mode +v pistacik
[7:43] * Snowl (~Snowl@119-18-16-45.cust.aussiebb.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:43] * PiBot sets mode +v Snowl
[7:52] * ashutosh2 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.187.41.mtnl.net.in) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[8:01] * pistacik (~pista@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[8:05] * ashutosh2 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.189.99.mtnl.net.in) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:05] * PiBot sets mode +v ashutosh2
[8:08] * shirro (~shirro@pdpc/supporter/active/shirro) Quit (Quit: shirro)
[8:14] * ashutosh2 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.189.99.mtnl.net.in) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[8:16] * iccanobif (iccanobif@host101-135-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:16] * PiBot sets mode +v iccanobif
[8:21] * koaschten (~koaschten@31-16-2-45-dynip.superkabel.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[8:23] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:23] * PiBot sets mode +v LWK_mac
[8:24] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[8:27] * ashutosh2 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.181.78.mtnl.net.in) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:27] * PiBot sets mode +v ashutosh2
[8:28] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-227-85.dsl.scarlet.be) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:28] * PiBot sets mode +v khildin
[8:30] * Da|Mummy (~veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: No route to host)
[8:31] * area (~area@unaffiliated/area) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[8:36] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:36] * PiBot sets mode +v Milos|Netbook
[8:39] * Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc18-reig4-2-0-cust124.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:39] * PiBot sets mode +v Cromulent
[8:40] * Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc18-reig4-2-0-cust124.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[8:41] * johnLAPACHE (~lpche@juv34-1-82-225-182-193.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[8:41] * iccanobif (iccanobif@host101-135-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
[8:45] * ashutosh2 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.181.78.mtnl.net.in) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[8:46] * TheOpenSourcerer (~alord@81-178-65-1.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:46] * PiBot sets mode +v TheOpenSourcerer
[8:48] * kalem (~kalem@host185-195-static.104-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:48] * kalem (~kalem@host185-195-static.104-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Changing host)
[8:48] * kalem (~kalem@unaffiliated/kalem) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:48] * PiBot sets mode +v kalem
[8:48] * PiBot sets mode +v kalem
[8:53] * stuk_gen (~quassel@151.65.25.24) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:53] * PiBot sets mode +v stuk_gen
[8:55] * The_Ball_ (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[8:57] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[9:00] * gabriel9|work (~quassel@92.241.143.37) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:00] * PiBot sets mode +v gabriel9|work
[9:02] * The_Ball (~The_Ball@122.150.108.38) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:02] * PiBot sets mode +v The_Ball
[9:03] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[9:06] * Da|Mummy (~veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:06] * PiBot sets mode +v Da|Mummy
[9:07] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[9:08] * ru55377 (~rthicking@84.92.196.188) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:08] * PiBot sets mode +v ru55377
[9:08] <Mowee> Morning
[9:10] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[9:14] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:14] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[9:16] * jzu (~jzu@79.174.206.23) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:16] * PiBot sets mode +v jzu
[9:28] * mjorgensen (quassel@nat/nokia/x-duseadaapizbphyt) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:28] * PiBot sets mode +v mjorgensen
[9:29] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[9:30] * Gadgetoid_mbp (~gadgetoid@91.85.32.26) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:30] * PiBot sets mode +v Gadgetoid_mbp
[9:33] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:33] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[9:34] * Axman6 (~Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[9:35] * Axman6 (~Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:35] * PiBot sets mode +v Axman6
[9:35] * Martix (~martix@134.89.broadband12.iol.cz) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:35] * PiBot sets mode +v Martix
[9:39] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[9:44] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:44] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[9:47] * Kostic (~Kostic@net224-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:47] * PiBot sets mode +v Kostic
[9:48] * M0GHY (~peterholl@188.65.96.15) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:48] * PiBot sets mode +v M0GHY
[9:54] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[9:56] * bikcmp (~jason@defocus/stripper/nakedwanker) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[9:57] * cosh (~cosh@gateway/tor-sasl/ryld) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:57] * PiBot sets mode +v cosh
[10:07] * Guest90301 (~rogers@ladymoor-gate.demon.co.uk) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[10:08] <Hourd> good moaning
[10:09] <Kostic> ahahahaha, http://www.explosm.net/comics/2600/
[10:11] * pizthewiz (~pizthewiz@c-67-188-110-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: pizthewiz)
[10:14] * makefu|EUER (~makefu@84-23-67-119.blue.kundencontroller.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:14] * PiBot sets mode +v makefu|EUER
[10:14] * Cemial (~hardcoreB@ip4da2366d.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:14] * PiBot sets mode +v Cemial
[10:15] * rikai (~rikai@cpe-72-224-108-1.maine.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:15] * rikai (~rikai@cpe-72-224-108-1.maine.res.rr.com) Quit (Changing host)
[10:15] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:15] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai
[10:15] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai
[10:17] * hjubal (~hjubal@89.119.42.67) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:17] * hjubal (~hjubal@89.119.42.67) Quit (Changing host)
[10:17] * hjubal (~hjubal@unaffiliated/hjubal) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:17] * PiBot sets mode +v hjubal
[10:17] * PiBot sets mode +v hjubal
[10:17] <Kostic> http://vukajlija.com/zabava/posteri/456453 ... This is so fucking weird if it isn't photoshoped... It would make a nice pet.
[10:18] <Kostic> Ups, wrong chat... Ignore it please.
[10:18] <makefu|EUER> too slow :D
[10:21] <Ticho> message recall not succesful :>
[10:22] * leighbb (~leigh@2002:5167:5ea6:ac10:230:bdff:fe6a:eb31) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:22] * PiBot sets mode +v leighbb
[10:22] <Kostic> bummer... xD
[10:22] <Hourd> hurr
[10:22] <makefu|EUER> durr
[10:24] * shirro (~shirro@ppp102-6.static.internode.on.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:24] * shirro (~shirro@ppp102-6.static.internode.on.net) Quit (Changing host)
[10:24] * shirro (~shirro@pdpc/supporter/active/shirro) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:24] * PiBot sets mode +v shirro
[10:24] * PiBot sets mode +v shirro
[10:33] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:33] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[10:33] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[10:33] * Mavy-bnc is now known as Mavy
[10:34] * mdavey (~chatzilla@mail.aminocom.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:34] * PiBot sets mode +v mdavey
[10:34] * atticist (~akwhawd@87-194-182-81.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:34] * PiBot sets mode +v atticist
[10:35] * Calyp (~Calyp@host-90-233-132-62.mobileonline.telia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:35] * Calyp (~Calyp@host-90-233-132-62.mobileonline.telia.com) Quit (Changing host)
[10:35] * Calyp (~Calyp@unaffiliated/calyptratus-tzm) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:35] * PiBot sets mode +v Calyp
[10:35] * PiBot sets mode +v Calyp
[10:36] * leighbb (~leigh@2002:5167:5ea6:ac10:230:bdff:fe6a:eb31) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[10:37] * tRank (~Fari@5ad45068.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:37] * PiBot sets mode +v tRank
[10:39] * d3p1 (~pc@unaffiliated/d3p1) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:39] * PiBot sets mode +v d3p1
[10:47] * rikai (~rikai@cpe-72-224-109-140.maine.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:47] * rikai (~rikai@cpe-72-224-109-140.maine.res.rr.com) Quit (Changing host)
[10:47] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:47] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai
[10:47] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai
[10:47] * tRank (~Fari@5ad45068.bb.sky.com) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[10:48] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-227-85.dsl.scarlet.be) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[10:48] * Martix (~martix@134.89.broadband12.iol.cz) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[10:50] * rikai_ (~rikai@cpe-72-224-109-140.maine.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:50] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai_
[10:52] <SBeans> good morning PIans
[10:53] * Kostic (~Kostic@net224-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[10:53] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[10:55] * Caver (~Caver@nat1.nipltd.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:55] * PiBot sets mode +v Caver
[10:56] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:56] * PiBot sets mode +v LWK_mac
[11:01] * BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:01] * PiBot sets mode +v BCMM
[11:02] * Dimacus (~kvirc@31-192-205-246.customer.universal.se) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[11:02] * Dimacus (~kvirc@31-192-205-246.customer.universal.se) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:02] * PiBot sets mode +v Dimacus
[11:02] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[11:04] * Calyp (~Calyp@unaffiliated/calyptratus-tzm) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[11:06] * roman3x (~roman3x@bband-dyn119.178-40-149.t-com.sk) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:06] * PiBot sets mode +v roman3x
[11:06] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
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[11:25] <SBeans> 09:15 <+Kostic> Ups, wrong chat... Ignore it please.
[11:25] <SBeans> what ever is said, can never be un said
[11:25] <SBeans> ctrl+z
[11:26] * katnegermis (~katnegerm@shop3.diku.dk) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[11:27] <Caver> ?
[11:27] <Hourd> undo
[11:28] <Caver> ahh ... you want control + W for that :P
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[11:51] <Hourd> ah yes
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[12:07] <des2> Apparently you can replace your Raspberry Pi with an Atari 2600.
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[12:11] <SBeans> 11:04 <+des2> Apparently you can replace your Raspberry Pi with an Atari 2600.
[12:11] <SBeans> vov
[12:11] <SBeans> ?
[12:11] <Caver> I think he's joking
[12:16] <SBeans> I also think this
[12:16] <SBeans> I just dont understand it
[12:16] <ShiftPlusOne> Once we get a CHIP-8 emulator going, we're set. If only we had the manpower.
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[12:18] <des2> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andysretrocomputers/6985993869/in/photostream
[12:21] <SBeans> hola CarpNet
[12:21] <CarpNet> hola
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[13:30] <Davespice> anyone here good with Regex? :)
[13:30] <ShiftPlusOne> depends on what you consider good
[13:32] <Davespice> I need to make an expression which matches a decimal which comes after the 5th carriage return in a string
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[13:32] <Davespice> it comes after a colon, I've got this so far: (?<=:.)\d{1,9}\r
[13:33] <Davespice> but I need to modify it so that it restricts it to the 5th line
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[13:33] <ShiftPlusOne2> sorry, got disconnected, I'll check the logs
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[13:34] <ShiftPlusOne2> i'll give it a go.
[13:34] <Davespice> so basically, I need it to match a decimal that does a look behind for *anything*\r{5}*anything*:\d
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[13:36] <ShiftPlusOne2> could you give sample text to make sure I understand?
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[13:43] <Space_Man> how are the carriage returns encoded, as CR, LF, CRLF, LFCR? I guess the regex will match all variants of CR and LF
[13:49] <Davespice> just \r will match them
[13:50] <aditsu> Davespice: this works in java: "(?:[^\\n]*\\n){5}[^\\d]*(\\d)", you may need to make some adjustments
[13:51] <Davespice> I'm testing using http://gskinner.com/RegExr/
[13:52] * Ahti333 (~Ahti333@dslc-082-082-133-137.pools.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[13:53] <aditsu> I don't understand that interface
[13:54] <Davespice> the regex expression goes in the line above, and the text you want to try it on goes in the text area below
[13:54] <aditsu> oh it highlights the matches
[13:54] <jzu> quoting jwz - Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.
[13:54] <Davespice> yeah, so you can see them
[13:54] <Davespice> jzu: yeah, they're a dark art aren't they?? :)
[13:55] <jzu> indeed
[13:55] <jzu> but I like to use them in their most basic form
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[13:56] <aditsu> Davespice: (?:[^\r]*\r){5}[^\d]*(\d)
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[14:01] <ShiftPlusOne2> aditsu, shouldn't that 5 be a 4 so that the 5th line is captured?
[14:02] <ShiftPlusOne2> Here's what I've got and I think it means the same thing (?:.*(?:\r)+){4}.*:.?(\d+)
[14:03] * jzu (~jzu@79.174.206.23) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[14:03] <ShiftPlusOne2> actually I interpreted the actual content of the lines a bit differently, but the method is the same.
[14:04] <Hexxeh> Any word on dispatch from Farnell?
[14:04] <aditsu> ShiftPlusOne2: he said after 5th carriage return, not on the 5th line
[14:04] <ShiftPlusOne2> aditsu, touche. Also, wouldn't that match every 6th line rather than just the 6th?
[14:05] * Calyp (~Calyp@unaffiliated/calyptratus-tzm) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[14:05] <aditsu> ShiftPlusOne2: if it does, you can prepend a ^
[14:05] <ShiftPlusOne2> ah, thanks
[14:08] <Hexxeh> http://cl.ly/F52p
[14:09] <aditsu> Hexxeh: so you got it? how is it working? :)
[14:09] <Hexxeh> I've not got it
[14:09] <Hexxeh> But according to Farnell, I should
[14:09] <aditsu> screenshot says you did
[14:09] <Hexxeh> Exactly.. :/
[14:09] <Hexxeh> Anyone else who had a 12th March delivery heard anything?
[14:10] <aditsu> you may think you didn't, but the screenshot is solid proof you already received it :)
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[14:13] <Davespice> guys, sorry if I made it unclear
[14:14] <ShiftPlusOne2> hmm ^(?<=(?:.*\r+){5})(\d*) should work, but I can't figure out why it doens't
[14:14] <Davespice> I wanted to match the number on the 5th line, which I think is also after thr 5th \r
[14:14] <aditsu> Davespice: you think wrong
[14:14] <ShiftPlusOne2> that would be the 6th line then
[14:15] <Davespice> really? *scratch*
[14:15] <aditsu> after the 1st \r is not the 1st line
[14:15] <aditsu> but the 2nd line
[14:15] <Davespice> okay, so yes, the 4th one then :)
[14:15] <Davespice> right, sorry guys
[14:15] <aditsu> trivial change anyway
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[14:19] <ShiftPlusOne2> seems like I don't know how assertions work
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[14:20] <aditsu> want pi now
[14:20] <Hexxeh> has anyone called Farnell to ask about the deliveries that were scheduled for this week?
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[14:25] * Davespice shrugs
[14:25] <Davespice> still done have anything that does the job
[14:25] <Davespice> dont, but thanks for trying guys
[14:27] <ShiftPlusOne2> Davespice, (?:.*(?:\r)+){4}(\d+) works fine for me
[14:27] <ShiftPlusOne2> ^(?:.*(?:\r)+){5}(\d+) rather
[14:28] <ShiftPlusOne2> no wait ^(?:.*(?:\r)+){4}(\d+)
[14:28] <ShiftPlusOne2> there we go
[14:28] <ShiftPlusOne2> ^(?:.*(?:\r)){5}(\d+) even
[14:29] <Thorn_> what is this witchcode?
[14:29] <ShiftPlusOne2> fuuu.... ^(?:.*(?:\r)){4}(\d+)
[14:29] * Mavy is now known as Mavy-bnc
[14:29] <Davespice> it's not working ShiftPlusOne2, I am trying it in RegexR
[14:29] <Davespice> http://gskinner.com/RegExr/
[14:29] <ShiftPlusOne2> click share link and paste it
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[14:31] <des2> Another case when it would have been faster to write a computer program than figure out the re...
[14:32] <ShiftPlusOne2> last correction.... \A^(?:^.*(?:\r)){4}(\d+)
[14:32] <ShiftPlusOne2> des2, yup, but good for practice.
[14:33] <Davespice> hmm, that doesn't work for me
[14:33] <ShiftPlusOne2> Davespice, http://regexr.com?30bh6 you can see here, only 51 is captured.
[14:34] <Davespice> I can't see what text you're using, when I follow that link I get teh default text
[14:35] <ShiftPlusOne2> that's strange
[14:35] <ShiftPlusOne2> I am just using numbers, each one on a new line. I am not sure what the actual format of your individual lines is.
[14:37] <Davespice> okay, sorry to spam the channel - I will paste it in here
[14:37] <Davespice> Not this line: 10
[14:37] <Davespice> Not this line: 11
[14:37] <Davespice> Not this line: 30
[14:37] <Davespice> Not this line: 51
[14:37] <Davespice> This line: 17
[14:37] <Davespice> Not this line: 99
[14:37] <Davespice> Not this line: 100
[14:37] <Davespice> I want it to grab the number 17
[14:37] <ShiftPlusOne2> ah so you're using : as a delimeter, ok
[14:38] * victhor (~victhor@189.115.174.40) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[14:38] <Davespice> actually can't count on that
[14:38] <ShiftPlusOne2> \A(?:.*(?:\r)){4}.*: ?(\d+)
[14:39] <ShiftPlusOne2> so... what can you count on? that it's a number at the end of the line?
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[14:39] <Davespice> yes, at the end of the 5th line
[14:39] * aditsu reminds Davespice that he gave the answer about 40 min ago
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[14:40] <Davespice> aditsu: yours does not work
[14:40] <aditsu> Davespice: yes it does
[14:40] <Davespice> ShiftPlusOne2: it will always be on the 5th line, directly before a \r
[14:40] <ShiftPlusOne2> ok
[14:41] <Davespice> aditsu: your matches everything before what I want to match, not the actual number itself
[14:42] <aditsu> Davespice: it matches what you want in the 1st capturing group
[14:42] <ShiftPlusOne2> \A(?:.*(?:\r)){4}.*(\d+)$
[14:42] <Dagger2> there's also the option of `sed -nre "5s/.+: //p"`, if piping through sed is available
[14:42] <jzu> Dagger2: that's what I was about to answer
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[14:42] <jzu> not this one but to the same effect
[14:43] <aditsu> Davespice: it has to match what's before it, otherwise it can't know where to find what you need
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[14:43] * PiBot sets mode +v Guest85176
[14:43] <aditsu> Davespice: but you only need to care about what it's capturing
[14:43] <Davespice> forget I asked man, seriously...
[14:44] <Davespice> Regex is such a dark art
[14:44] <Hourd> its akin to perl
[14:44] <Hourd> aka voodoo
[14:45] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-227-85.dsl.scarlet.be) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[14:45] <aditsu> not my fault if you refuse to understand/accept the correct solution
[14:45] <Davespice> aditsu: don't be so arrogant
[14:46] <ShiftPlusOne2> Davespice, is there a possibility that any characters before the number you're after will also be numbers for example "blah blah 50 blah 10"?
[14:46] <aditsu> we're done then, back to pi
[14:46] <aditsu> pi is gooood
[14:47] <jzu> ShiftPlusOne2: well, a $ would match the eol
[14:48] <ShiftPlusOne2> jzu, yeah, I have this \A(?:.*(?:\r)){4}.*(\d+)$ , but that only captures the last digit rather than the whole number
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[14:48] * PiBot sets mode +v Nemo7
[14:48] <Davespice> I can do a match group for everything before the 4th \r which is (?:[^\r]*\r){4} but if I then try to use this inside a look behind it doesn't work any more
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[14:48] <Davespice> so (?<=(?:[^\r]*\r){4})
[14:48] <ShiftPlusOne2> jzu, so I considered making that \A(?:.*(?:\r)){4}\D*(\d+)$
[14:48] * Guest85176 (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[14:49] <ShiftPlusOne2> Davespice, yeah, I couldn't get lookbehind to work here.
[14:49] <ShiftPlusOne2> so we're using a non-capturing group instead.
[14:49] <jzu> Davespice: are there spaces before the number?
[14:49] <ShiftPlusOne2> yeah, you need some delimeter before the number which you can be sure of
[14:50] <Davespice> yes there usually are, its always a : space \d
[14:50] <ShiftPlusOne2> I guess we can be sure that it won't be another number
[14:50] <ShiftPlusOne2> usually or always.... a big difference
[14:50] <jzu> \A(?:.*(?:\r)){4}.*\s+(\d+)$
[14:50] <Davespice> guys I appreciate all the help here, but seriously, don't stress too much
[14:51] <jzu> at a meeting here, don't worry :-)
[14:51] <Davespice> I feel people might start tearing their hair out any minute :)
[14:51] <Davespice> I'll get an email with some hair attached
[14:51] * Maccer (~Maccer@199.168.138.175) Quit (Excess Flood)
[14:51] <ShiftPlusOne2> not stressed at all, just doing it out of boredom
[14:52] <Davespice> ShiftPlusOne2: okay thats cool then
[14:52] <ShiftPlusOne2> there's also this \A(?:.*(?:\r)){4}.*?\D(\d+)$
[14:52] <Davespice> I can't understand why that look behind doesn't work
[14:52] <ShiftPlusOne2> but that doesn't work if it's just the number without anything before it
[14:54] <ShiftPlusOne2> Davespice, found out why... "You cannot use repetition or optional items. You can use alternation, but only if all options in the alternation have the same length."
[14:55] <ShiftPlusOne2> http://www.regular-expressions.info/lookaround.html
[14:55] <Davespice> oh god right
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[14:55] <Davespice> and the problem is the rows of text can be of variable length
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[15:05] <Caver> Davespice, what language are you writing the regex for?
[15:05] <Caver> as there are different dialects
[15:06] <Davespice> Caver: I think ShiftPlusOne2 has given me the solution now, just going to test it out
[15:06] <Caver> rats ... I missed my chance to shine :P
[15:06] <Davespice> its for c# by the way
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[15:07] <Caver> I got my 1st job because I knew regular expressions and the company didn't!
[15:07] <ShiftPlusOne2> lol
[15:07] <ShiftPlusOne2> Caver, your chance to shine is to figure out how to get lookbehind to work in that context. But I am not sure if that's possible.
[15:08] <Davespice> aditsu also had the correct solution, my fault was to not interperet how RegexR works correctly, it looked to me as though everything fromt he start of the string up to and including the number was being selected as part of the group
[15:08] <Davespice> but in fact, the number was the only thing being selected, so sorry for calling you arrogant back there
[15:09] <aditsu> s'ok, glad you figured it out
[15:11] <Caver> sounds like you got what you wanted!
[15:11] <Caver> lookbehind etc are best avoided if at all possible
[15:12] <Caver> though the best regex's always look like someone sneezed while typing
[15:12] <Davespice> success!
[15:13] <ShiftPlusOne2> Caver, isn't it wasteful to match that large block of text and only capture a few characters?
[15:13] <Davespice> big thank you to ShiftPlusOne2, jzu and aditsu
[15:13] <ShiftPlusOne2> you're welcome
[15:14] <Caver> define wasteful!
[15:14] <jzu> anything to escape this damn meeting
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[15:15] <Hourd> meetings--
[15:15] <ShiftPlusOne2> Caver, in that case, returning a larger string than necessary, but I understand that the lookbehind would affect the memory and processing power used while determining that string, so then my point may be really insignificant.
[15:16] <Caver> it's all MMIO'd anyway
[15:16] <ShiftPlusOne2> ah
[15:16] <Caver> so ... yeah a *tiny* bit but not enough to be a problem!
[15:16] <Caver> it's part of why they are so nice and fast :)
[15:17] <Caver> mmm ... wonder if we should write a python and regular expressions tutorial for kids
[15:18] <Caver> lets face it, its a brilliant skill
[15:18] <Caver> (or a mind warping one, depending!)
[15:18] <ShiftPlusOne2> Caver, since we're at it. If you have an obfuscated email like a-d-d-r-e-s-s@d-o-m-a-i-n.e-d-u? how can you return just 'address' and 'domain'?
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[15:19] <Caver> ^\([^@]\)@\(.+\)$
[15:19] <Caver> then group1 is left side, group2 is right
[15:19] <Caver> something like that
[15:19] <Caver> beg pardon you didn't want the .com bit?
[15:20] <Caver> ^\([^@]\)@\(.+\)\.[a-z]+$
[15:20] <ShiftPlusOne2> nuh, just a vague example, the specifics don't matter. I just don't know how to remove characters
[15:20] <Caver> ah right
[15:21] <Caver> thats a language specific thing not regular expresions can only match and identify stuff
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[15:21] <ShiftPlusOne2> hm
[15:21] <Caver> so once you've matched the groups - aka the \( \) bits ... you can usually do a .replace("-", "") type thing on them
[15:23] <Dagger2> - is a valid character in email addresses, so please don't just remove all dashes
[15:24] <Caver> I'm sure, I think it was just an example
[15:24] <SBeans> fyi http://www.regexpal.com/
[15:24] <SBeans> thanks CarpNet ^^
[15:24] <ShiftPlusOne2> regexpal is meh
[15:24] <CarpNet> i think there was another one posted in here
[15:24] <ShiftPlusOne2> the one dave was using was better
[15:24] <SBeans> oh sorry I missed it
[15:24] * SBeans reads up
[15:24] <aditsu> speaking of email addresses: http://ex-parrot.com/~pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html
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[15:25] <ShiftPlusOne2> jesus
[15:25] <Caver> extra nerd points if you can say why google.com. different to google.com
[15:25] <Caver> and both are valid :)
[15:25] * tyooo (~hvkkg@213.240.225.18) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[15:26] <ShiftPlusOne2> O_o
[15:26] <aditsu> Caver: I know they're different in dns zone files
[15:26] <jzu> that was in the O'Reilly book as well
[15:27] <Caver> try it in your browser :)
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[15:27] <Davespice> guys, I found an email address validation regex the other day
[15:27] <Davespice> it was about 50 characters long
[15:27] <ShiftPlusOne2> Davespice, look up
[15:27] <Davespice> hang on, let me see if I can find it
[15:27] <SBeans> A domain name that doesn't have a dot at the end is not fully-qualified
[15:28] <Davespice> ohh
[15:28] <Davespice> sorry! =)
[15:28] <Davespice> HOLY HELL!
[15:28] <ShiftPlusOne2> lol
[15:28] <aditsu> :D
[15:28] <Davespice> that is just mental...
[15:28] <SBeans> documented in the DNS spec RFC1034
[15:28] <SBeans> 1987
[15:29] <aditsu> Caver: the final dot makes no difference in my browsers
[15:29] <Caver> LOL ... yup ... though kind of doing things the hard way there
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[15:30] <ShiftPlusOne2> Davespice, 50 characters looks simple now, doesn't it?
[15:30] <Caver> aditsu, it won't, but it will cause the dns entry to be looked up in full and not cached
[15:30] <mkopack> Hey gang
[15:30] <des2> Yes but that's for DNS
[15:30] <Davespice> yeah... *blinks*
[15:30] <SBeans> hey mkopack
[15:30] <ShiftPlusOne2> mkopack, 'morning
[15:30] <jzu> fortunately, a very limited subset of the email syntax is used across the internet
[15:30] <Dagger2> aditsu: it does in mine; "sawako" works but "sawako." is of course not valid
[15:31] <des2> A fully qualified domain name can be fully qualified and not contain a dot.
[15:31] <aditsu> Dagger2: I was talking about google.com
[15:31] <SBeans> www.example.com. . Absolute domain name
[15:31] <Dagger2> (since the former is looked up in my search path and ends up as sawako.haruhi.eu, but the latter is explicitly the "sawako" TLD, which I don't quite have the funds to buy)
[15:31] <SBeans> www.example.com . Relative domain name, which, after applying the "." that's always implicitly in everyone's DNS searchlist, becomes www.example.com.
[15:32] <Henchman21> WorldWideWiretap
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[15:59] <mkopack_> Any news in the world of RPi??
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[16:00] <piless> Yes
[16:00] <ShiftPlusOne2> Hexxeh, got his
[16:00] <Hexxeh> no i didn't
[16:00] <piless> It's been cancelled. Due to rain.
[16:00] <ShiftPlusOne2> you did
[16:00] <Hexxeh> i was supposed to have though
[16:00] <ShiftPlusOne2> you've shown evidence than you have
[16:00] <ShiftPlusOne2> </troll>
[16:01] <des2> Hexxeh is in denial.
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[16:01] <mkopack> Crap, I wonder if I left my iPad connected to IRC ? shit
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[16:13] <mkopack> Contemplating ordering a BBone
[16:15] <mkopack> So, the BBone has an ARM-Cortex A8??? Same 256MB RAM??? I would think it's going to be a decent bit faster than the RPi in terms of CPU (not GPU).
[16:15] <mkopack> Arm V7 vs V6
[16:16] <ShiftPlusOne2> I'll wait for the prices of these dev boards to drop first
[16:18] <mkopack> given that I want to run ROS on them, I'm thinking the BBone might be a better option than the RPi for embedded use like that??? Not that there's anything wrong with the RPi, I'm just thinking the BBone will be faster for that use case
[16:19] <kallisti5> BBone is just too freaking expensive
[16:19] <kallisti5> 199 is silly for a toy
[16:19] <piless> If they're giving it an a8 they might aswell give it 512mb of ram
[16:19] <kallisti5> I could alomost buy a full featured laptop for 199
[16:19] <mkopack> ???
[16:19] <mkopack> where do you get $199?
[16:19] <mkopack> That's for the Beagle Board??? Bone is $89
[16:19] <piless> He never said dollars
[16:20] <mkopack> Oh well
[16:20] <mkopack> true
[16:20] <kallisti5> ah.. I'
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[16:20] <kallisti5> m thinking BBoard
[16:20] <piless> 199 rupees?
[16:20] <ShiftPlusOne2> vietnamese dong
[16:20] <kallisti5> usd :)
[16:20] <mkopack> Digikey has the BeagleBoard for $149
[16:20] <mkopack> XM
[16:21] <kallisti5> it used to be $199 though
[16:21] <mkopack> yeah, they adjusted down the price
[16:21] <kallisti5> I admit $149 is a little better
[16:22] <kallisti5> still though.. I could have 4 Pi's for one BBoard :)
[16:23] <aditsu> if only they started delivering them
[16:23] <kallisti5> i know :'(
[16:23] <mkopack> true..
[16:23] <kallisti5> current backorder changed from 13th of March to 30th :(
[16:23] <mkopack> So I don't know???
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[16:24] <mkopack> Let's see what mine says today
[16:24] <mkopack> Still showing March 30 expected ship date
[16:24] <des2> What does it matter what the date says ?
[16:24] * kallisti5 has important Pi things to do
[16:25] <des2> It's like waiting for Godot.
[16:25] <des2> If he arrives he arrives...
[16:25] <mkopack> lol
[16:25] <kallisti5> des2: given the delay... and pie would of gone bad by now :P
[16:25] <mkopack> Ouch, newark is WAY overpriced on the Beagle stuff
[16:26] <ShiftPlusOne2> keep in mind postage is free
[16:26] <mkopack> Ooooh.
[16:26] <mkopack> Wow...
[16:27] <mkopack> They're charging $194 for the BBoard-XM??? vs $149 from Digikey
[16:28] <Henchman21> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1524403.pdf
[16:29] <mkopack> Geesh, all they did was basically reformat the FAq / Wiki info!
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[16:30] <ShiftPlusOne2> that's bad?
[16:31] <mkopack> no but geesh, why do we need a PDF to say exactly the same info you could get on the wiki?
[16:31] <mkopack> I guess some people would prefer the PDF thoguh
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> Woo! I have email! Apparantly, an african prince has died, and I have been found eligible to receive his raspberry pi. All I need to do is to send $10 to claim it.
[16:31] <ShiftPlusOne2> nice
[16:32] <mkopack> LOL
[16:32] <mkopack> Does he have a sister named Princess Umfoofu?
[16:34] <aditsu> you mean Eddie Murphy's wife?
[16:38] <SBeans> Murphy is irish, on that note, it's irish day 2moro!!!
[16:38] <SBeans> time to drink 2 and 1 guinessess
[16:38] <piofcube> SpeedEvil: You're wrong! I was eligible first... I sent the former prince's nephew's next door neighbour my credit card and pin number so he could take the $10 from my account because he can't accept paypal. He promised to send it back and only take $10 out so that should be fine.
[16:39] <aditsu> looks legit
[16:39] <piofcube> Yeah... can't fool me... If he said he was the prince I would know it was a con because he's dead
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[16:40] <mkopack> Yup, green beer tomorrow!
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[16:41] <mkopack> I swear to god one of these years I'm going to make it down to Savannah for St. Patties day for the festivities there??? They get pretty crazy
[16:41] <mkopack> they actually die the river green
[16:41] <mkopack> dye
[16:42] <piofcube> All those rivers turned green for one day... shame they can't make them bluee the other 364 days of the year ;-)
[16:42] <mkopack> lol
[16:42] <mkopack> gotta love those algae blooms
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[16:43] <mkopack> Man, just reading through the wikipedia page on ARM architecture???.. What a F'ing MESS!
[16:43] <traeak> mips !
[16:44] <zgreg> heh
[16:44] <traeak> mips fragmented when they scaled it down
[16:44] <mkopack> How many GD different instruction sets do they need?!??!
[16:44] <traeak> to bad the jz4770 doesn't support anything decent for video out
[16:44] <zgreg> mkopack: at least one more, we're going to see ARMv8 soon
[16:44] <mkopack> fine, but drop support for the old stuff then!
[16:45] <mkopack> How much CRAP is carried around in the CPU to support the old modes? sigh
[16:45] <traeak> armv8 with 64bit support ?
[16:45] <zgreg> the real issue is that many parts are quite optional, such as NEON or VFP
[16:45] <mkopack> right which just adds to the confusion
[16:46] <zgreg> fortunately ARM actually removes some of the crap
[16:46] <zgreg> such as the useless jazelle
[16:46] <slaeshjag> ARM doesn't have that much junk in the baggage
[16:46] <mkopack> well, Jaz was an interesting idea when it came out. Just poorly implemented and thus dropped
[16:46] <zgreg> even on x86 some of the old crap will be removed soon
[16:46] * aditsu (~aditsu@119247098106.ctinets.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[16:46] <zgreg> I hope we'll see 64-bit-only x86 CPUs soon
[16:46] <mkopack> Actually a lot of it WAS dropped when AMD went to 64 bit
[16:47] <zgreg> mkopack: right, but it's still around, due to compatibility for 32 bit
[16:47] <mkopack> most of the old 16 bit + 8 bit support kludges were dropped
[16:47] <slaeshjag> zgreg: I can still boot MS DOS 3.3 on my brothers latest gen Core i7, and it can run CGA-games :)
[16:48] <zgreg> mkopack: I don't think jazelle was adopted in any way even at the time when it was interesting
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[16:48] <zgreg> the ONLY advantage back then was fast startup
[16:48] <mkopack> thumbEE looks interesting
[16:48] <mkopack> At least for Java types like me
[16:48] <zgreg> the JITs already outpaced jazelle back then
[16:48] <mkopack> yeah
[16:49] <zgreg> and nowadays, the startup issue is mostly solved, with hotspot and caching
[16:49] <mkopack> That was true with the Java CPU that Sun tried to make. By the time they got it working, people figured out how to get higher performance out of JITC'
[16:49] <zgreg> JIT compilation is much more flexible, and provides better performance
[16:50] <Davespice> Henchman21: in that PDF you linked from Farnell, I love the way they say "It won't be much use as a general computer" :)
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[16:50] <Davespice> really sell that product there! =)
[16:50] <zgreg> Davespice: that's good
[16:51] <zgreg> it's the unfortunate truth
[16:51] <Davespice> no I know... people do need to understand you won't be able to do everything on it
[16:51] <zgreg> many people already see the raspi as a small desktop machine
[16:51] <mkopack> All depends on your needs
[16:51] <zgreg> say, like a nettop
[16:51] <Davespice> yeah, most people probably just want it for xmbc, but hey
[16:52] <zgreg> but it's nowhere near a nettop in performance
[16:52] <zgreg> even xbmc is going to suck, if you want more out of it than basic video playback
[16:52] <zgreg> e.g. subtitles
[16:52] <Davespice> although I still think you could use it as a productivity pc, if a little slow, I think that will improve when there are accelerated X drivers made
[16:53] <zgreg> well, or MPEG-2 playback
[16:53] <zgreg> a little, yes
[16:53] <zgreg> but it's going to be useless for the most typical task - web browsing
[16:53] * neciO (~juan@253.128-246-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #raspberrypi
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[16:54] <Davespice> yeah of course
[16:54] * GobShite (geekykids@95.211.46.124) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[16:54] <Davespice> I want to see what it's like to run the QT ide on as well, I run it on a 128 MB laptop here, so it should be better than that =)
[16:55] <Davespice> can take about 2 minutes or more to do a build
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[17:03] <HienoMies> what conference?
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[17:05] <mkopack> Damn room splits! I keep missing half of the conversation
[17:05] <SBeans> 15:48 <+Davespice> no I know... people do need to understand you won't be able to do everything on it
[17:05] <SBeans> The PI is going to cure all problems
[17:06] <SBeans> it stops you getting aids, it can make you richa nd popular
[17:06] <HienoMies> sure is
[17:06] * Davespice chuckles
[17:06] <SBeans> you can create VB GUI interface
[17:06] <SBeans> you name it
[17:06] <SBeans> it does it
[17:06] <Davespice> it will cure cancer and allow meaninful communication with all forms of life
[17:06] <HienoMies> awesome!
[17:06] <mkopack> It will get you LAID!
[17:06] <Caver> and contact alien life forms
[17:06] <HienoMies> omg
[17:06] <Thorn_> laid onto a bed of spikes
[17:06] <SBeans> you can sleep with the PI
[17:06] <mkopack> It will cure your acne
[17:07] <SBeans> porn FILM:
[17:07] <Caver> ahahahah
[17:07] <Davespice> haha
[17:07] <SBeans> AMerican PI
[17:07] <mkopack> SBeans: LOL ,just thought the same thing!
[17:07] <SBeans> haha
[17:07] <Davespice> haha, war peadle guitar music starts up :)
[17:08] <BenO> The scene in the kitchen with the Pi would be more painful though
[17:08] <mkopack> Ok, so what's this "Execute in Place (XIP) Kernel" about?
[17:08] <SBeans> the best bit about the PI is that it uses a fully reversable system to create perptual motion. Hence it doesnt need a power supply
[17:08] <mkopack> Never heard of that...
[17:08] <SBeans> you just need to get a micro usb - usb and plug it into itself
[17:08] <mkopack> SBeans, you mean like plugging the USB out to the Micro USB in :)
[17:08] <SBeans> and then just get a deflibriater
[17:08] <mkopack> Energy problem solved!
[17:08] <SBeans> and BAM
[17:08] <drazyl> mkopack when you have the kernel and apps in rom, you don't want to copy them to ram to run them, that just double them up
[17:08] <SBeans> of it goes forever
[17:08] <mkopack> yes, must jump start it :)
[17:09] <SBeans> like ironman
[17:09] <SBeans> only open source
[17:09] <BenO> mkopack, normally it means running from "ROM" rather than load to RAM
[17:09] * skilz (~skilz@unaffiliated/skilz) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[17:09] <drazyl> mkopack so you want to use the image in rom as if it was loaded in ram, hence execute in place
[17:09] <mkopack> Would that cut down on memory use?
[17:09] <drazyl> only if you have stuff in rom
[17:09] <drazyl> works for traditional embedded stuff, pdas etc
[17:09] <mkopack> but I assume it would also slow things down since it would have to read off the SD card constantly to do anything
[17:09] <drazyl> but its slower than loading the whole lot into memory
[17:10] * Tachyon` (hideki@cpc1-york2-0-0-cust905.7-1.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: Rebooting/Upgrading)
[17:10] <drazyl> won't work with sd card, only where you have traditionally addressed ram and rom
[17:10] <BenO> Does the Pi have any NAND on board, I forget...?
[17:10] <BenO> (for the XiP)
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[17:11] <mkopack> Oh, just wondering. Somebody had a thread up on the RPi forums about it
[17:11] <drazyl> yeah, saw that
[17:11] <mkopack> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/execute-in-place-xip-kernel
[17:11] <drazyl> it's not relevant to the pi
[17:11] <mkopack> That's why I was asking
[17:11] <mkopack> gothcya
[17:12] <drazyl> it's one of the things that wince could do but early embedded linux couldnt
[17:12] <drazyl> there was talk of adding it for the embedded market (this would be about 10 years ago) but no idea if it was, I presume so
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[17:13] <zgreg> execute in place? that's not really interesting anymore nowadays
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[17:13] <drazyl> been about 8 years since I did embedded stuff
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[17:14] <zgreg> execute in place won't work with block devices, anyway
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[17:14] <drazyl> don't particularly miss trying to work around other peoples broken hardware and implementations :)
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[17:31] <piless> Who wrote the topic?
[17:31] <Caver> ukscone I think
[17:31] <piless> Because chocolate and bacon DO NOT mix
[17:32] <traeak> yumm
[17:32] <Caver> but Pi's probably don't taste great either
[17:32] <Caver> all those pins
[17:32] <traeak> http://www.tasteofhome.com/Recipes/Chocolate-Covered-Bacon
[17:32] <piless> Lies
[17:33] <drazyl> not sure why they shouldn't mix
[17:33] <ukscone> piless: it's good but you need really thick cut fatty salty bacon
[17:34] <Matt> deep fried mars bars
[17:34] <Caver> have you ever tried that?
[17:34] <ukscone> almost centimeter thick bacon with lots of fat on it
[17:34] <Caver> I tried to do it in a fondu set ... ended up having to change the oil
[17:34] <Matt> lol
[17:34] <piless> Back Bacon?
[17:34] <Matt> go visit scotland :)
[17:35] <PaulFertser> go vegan ;)
[17:35] * earby (~earby@ip-217-204-71-120.easynet.co.uk) has left #raspberrypi
[17:35] <piless> Deep fried mars bars are so overrated
[17:35] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, but bacon is tasty!
[17:35] <Caver> you won't find too many vegens in scotland
[17:35] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: i used to think that too. But now it seems disgusting to me. Same about this conversation :/
[17:36] <piless> All that ironbrew rots your brain
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[17:36] <PaulFertser> nb: i'm not a vegan in fact, that's too strict for me.
[17:37] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, moral reasons I am guessing?
[17:37] <piless> ShiftPlusOne2: some people don't like the texture
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[17:38] <piless> ShiftPlusOne2: Or for health reasons
[17:38] <ShiftPlusOne2> piless, I doubt not liking the texture would lead to that sense of disgust when someone mentions bacon is tasty.
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[17:38] <ShiftPlusOne2> And judgment... but I am not sure if that's the right word.
[17:38] * mike_ is now known as Guest91449
[17:39] <piless> ShiftPlusOne2: Gristle!
[17:39] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: yep
[17:40] <mkopack> Deep fried Butter
[17:40] <mkopack> (yes, it ACTUALLY exists)
[17:41] <piless> Ugh.. Americans
[17:41] <mkopack> lol
[17:41] <mkopack> We can fry anything!
[17:42] <Caver> you'd think it might melt
[17:42] <traeak> flash fry or something ?
[17:42] <piless> Mko
[17:42] * Caver would like to finish with a bucket of lard please
[17:42] <Caver> oh and a waffa thin mint
[17:42] <piofcube> Mr Creosote ;-)
[17:42] <mkopack> Flash fried. I assume it's battered as well
[17:43] <mkopack> Hell we fry ice cream
[17:43] <piless> mkopack: only miller lite at the bar?
[17:43] <mkopack> Yeah, and I shouldn't have ordered a 2nd. The service was so damn slow that it was nearly 11 by the time I got my food and was getting really sleepy
[17:44] * _inc (~inc@unaffiliated/-inc/x-0498339) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[17:44] <mkopack> I only drank like 1/2 the second one before I said "enough" and left to go home
[17:44] <mkopack> and I had an early morning conference call meeting today as well, so I'm dragging *ss today...
[17:44] <piofcube> _inc must have had the same problem.. He's gone to sleep also ;-)
[17:46] * kalem (~kalem@unaffiliated/kalem) Quit (Quit: Sto andando via)
[17:47] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, sorry, just curious... is there a particular reason you started believing eating meat is immoral (religion, shocking PETA videos or something like that) or did you just develop that sense of compassion towards animals over time just on reflection? Feel free not to answer if you cbf.
[17:48] * ashutosh1 (~ashutosh@triband-mum-120.62.174.254.mtnl.net.in) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[17:48] <Thorn_> only pussies go vegetarian and they should be strung up and forced to eat other humans as punishment
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[17:49] <mkopack> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/yet-another-email-from-rs
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[17:50] <mkopack> possible movement on RS ordering?
[17:52] * piless (~no@94.197.127.170.threembb.co.uk) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[17:52] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: well, many people around me were vegeterian and also i never understood how it can be moral to kill rather smart animals (pigs) and also i do not want to support consumerism and capitalism (as i consider both immoral, and businessmen rarely care about an animal as much as an ordinary countryman would) etc.
[17:53] <ShiftPlusOne2> fair enough
[17:54] <drazyl> but animals are tasty
[17:54] <ShiftPlusOne2> drazyl, I've made that point already.
[17:54] <PaulFertser> Well, i do not care that much about taste. And i receive enough energy from the other sources.
[17:55] <drazyl> and I can tell you my cats don't give a damn about the rights of other creatures
[17:55] <drazyl> nature is harsh and nasty
[17:55] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, you're partially being trolled when it comes to taste, that's obviously not a real argument... and I doubt you're after an argument anyway.
[17:55] <ShiftPlusOne2> drazyl, yes... nature is. but we don't have to be.
[17:55] <PaulFertser> Oh, i like arguments in fact :)
[17:56] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, a pinko who likes to argue? Why I never... =P
[17:56] <PaulFertser> drazyl: yes, but cats do not breed other animals. Nature is harsh but does it mean that people should necessarily be the same way too?
[17:56] <mkopack> I've come to learn that I just can't date a girl who's a vegetarian. IT just doesn't work with me
[17:56] <drazyl> ShiftPlusOne2 - it is actually a real argument, we as a species are omnivorous, not vegetarian, so eating meat is part of our intended diet.
[17:57] <ShiftPlusOne2> drazyl, 'intended'?
[17:57] <PaulFertser> drazyl: i think some monkeys eat fruit mostly and that's a natural diet for them. Why can't we?
[17:57] <drazyl> PaulFertser - I don't necessarily disagree with you, and have a number of vegetarian friends (including one who is rubbish at it :) - but personally don't feel the need to deprive myself
[17:58] <mkopack> Paul: because we're not monkeys?
[17:58] <drazyl> PaulFertser we aren't monkeys
[17:58] * mphi (~phi@2001:41d0:1:4718:7a20::1) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[17:58] <Thorn_> fuck that noise
[17:58] <Thorn_> lets eat PaulFertser
[17:58] <drazyl> ShiftPlusOne2 - "intended" as in that is what we have evolved to require
[17:58] <mkopack> I'm all for if you want to be a vegetarian, cool. I can't say I could do it. I enjoy the teaste of various meats. I'm not big on hunting though??? I don't have a problem with raising animals for slaughter for food though.
[17:58] <PaulFertser> drazyl: aren't we similar enough for the purposes of evaluating dietery habits?
[17:59] <ShiftPlusOne2> If we look at our 'intended' disease ridden environment and compare that to the actual environment we live in... I don't care much for 'intended'
[17:59] <mkopack> Paul :Not really. IMO. No
[17:59] <PaulFertser> Thorn_: would you prefer talking about how to better write an SPI driver for Pi? Are you at it?
[17:59] <drazyl> PaulFertser no, and the nearest gentically, the chimpanzee, also eats meat
[17:59] <mkopack> If you look at our jaw and tooth structure, we're designed to eat everything, including meat
[17:59] <Thorn_> PaulFertser: no i just want to eat you, now get in the damn cage
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[17:59] <mkopack> Thorn: HAHAHAH
[18:00] <PaulFertser> Thorn_: nah, you're not going to get me :P
[18:00] <mkopack> Man, I could make a joke, but we're in PG13 land here
[18:00] <drazyl> PaulFertser nothing wrong with choosing to be a vegetarian, but in the same way, nothing wrong in not choosing to be one, if you see what I me
[18:00] <PaulFertser> Well, we can eat meat but does it mean we must? I think quite some studies shows that it's unnecessary health-wise.
[18:00] <PaulFertser> Especially if one consumes fish instead.
[18:01] <drazyl> PaulFertser studies also show that a pure vegetarian diet isn't healthy, and don't fish have feelings?
[18:01] <Thorn_> yeah becuase there's no such thing as life as intelligent as pigs in the sea.
[18:01] <PaulFertser> drazyl: i doubt fish have any feelings, yes.
[18:01] <mkopack> Not everyone likes fish though, and in some areas Fish is hard to get (and is WAY more eco unfriendly to get it to you than the cattle out on pasture next door)
[18:01] <drazyl> PaulFertser now, you should know that is not true
[18:01] <PaulFertser> drazyl: :)
[18:02] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, so there are 'lesser' animals which are ok to eat and the degree to which it's ok to eat an animal is determined by its' intelligence?
[18:02] <PaulFertser> drazyl: (pure vegeterian diet) hm, i'd like to see a link to that study.
[18:02] <mkopack> which is less carbon footprint? Person in Kansas City, Kansas (about as far from ocean as you can get in the USA) eating Steak or Fish?
[18:02] <mkopack> Fresh
[18:02] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne2: by that logic, we best resort to eating humans
[18:02] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[18:03] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: well, that's approximately how i feel about it though i personally choose to be a lacto-ovo-vegeterian.
[18:03] <Thorn_> you like ovaries?
[18:03] <drazyl> PaulFertser something to do with some of the vitamins that are present in meats but hard to get in vegetables I believe
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[18:03] <mkopack> The fish has to be flown in before it goes bad. The cow just got slaughtered that morning after coming from the cattle rancher down the street
[18:04] <mkopack> I don't care if a girlfriend is a vegetarian, so long as she likes to eat the tube steak ;)
[18:04] <PaulFertser> mkopack: cattle rancher is one thing, and "evil capitalistic businessmen who doesn't care about anything but the money" is another.
[18:04] <mkopack> Is the cattle rancher NOT doing it to make money?
[18:04] <Thorn_> lol what
[18:04] * rikai_ (~rikai@cpe-72-224-109-140.maine.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:04] <Thorn_> you're a vegetarian because of money?
[18:05] <CuriosTiger> the cattle rancher is doing work to make money.
[18:05] <CuriosTiger> that's fair.
[18:05] <mkopack> Is the Farmer not trying to make money too?
[18:05] <Thorn_> might as well stop buying anything then
[18:05] <PaulFertser> mkopack: i'd guess he cares more about being "ethical" with the animals.
[18:05] * hjubal (~hjubal@unaffiliated/hjubal) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:05] <CuriosTiger> What about being ethical with plants?
[18:05] <Thorn_> yeah randy gets real ethical with his pigs
[18:05] <mkopack> Um, he cares about getting them fat and ready to take to market??? They're his "assets".. his Product
[18:05] <Thorn_> my god, when was the last time you actually spoke to a farmer ?
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[18:06] <drazyl> most of the farmers I've know have cared about their animals
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[18:06] <mkopack> sure because he cares about them because they're his livelihood
[18:06] <drazyl> no, more than that
[18:06] <mkopack> all the chickens die, no eggs to sell
[18:06] <mkopack> problem with the cows, no milk to sell
[18:06] <mkopack> etc
[18:07] <drazyl> in the same way I care about how professional I am about my job
[18:07] <drazyl> it's not just because if I do it wrong I may not have a job, it's because I believe in doing things right
[18:07] <mkopack> sure, and nothing wrong with that??? but that doesn't mean you don't try to do things in a way to maximize the profit for your efforts, right?
[18:07] <CuriosTiger> My grandfather is a farmer. He doesn't need to be; he could've retired 25 years ago
[18:07] <Thorn_> CuriosTiger: he's having an affair with one of his pigs, live with it
[18:08] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Actually, it does mean that if you'd have to cross ethical boundaries to do so
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[18:08] <CuriosTiger> Thorn_: Your mom called and said you're not allowed to be on the computer this late.
[18:08] <drazyl> mkopack I could be richer and less ethical in my job, but choose not to be
[18:08] <PaulFertser> When breeding and killing animals becomes a mechanical mass-market technological process with only one aim to make more money, it doesn't feel right.
[18:08] <drazyl> PaulFertser that I would agree with
[18:09] <CuriosTiger> My primary thing is that the animals shouldn't suffer.
[18:09] <PaulFertser> drazyl: thanks, appreciated :)
[18:09] <CuriosTiger> Which, admittedly, in a lot of cases they do.
[18:09] <mkopack> ok then??? so what we're talking about is the line between doing what you feel is decent and kind and hopefully still making some money in the process, vs. doing whatever you have to to maximize the income you get, possibly being somewhat bad in how you do it
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[18:09] <CuriosTiger> Chickens with half a square foot of living space etc.
[18:09] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: And like most extremes, reality for most people is somewhere in-between.
[18:10] <mkopack> Exactly
[18:10] <drazyl> PaulFertser there's a big debate on in the UK about chickens over farm standards - we have largely implemented new better regulations, but not all eu countries have also done so
[18:10] <ShiftPlusOne2> What's in between killing a cow and not killing a cow?
[18:10] <drazyl> ShiftPlusOne2 just eating one of its legs?
[18:10] <mkopack> Do I want to see them tortured? No??? but I also understand the need to do things in efficient mechanical ways to meet market demand and make the whole enterprise profitable
[18:10] <ShiftPlusOne2> so then I don't think reality is somewhere in between, heh.
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[18:11] <philh> when those who care enough to buy ethically produced products instead just drop out of the market, that doesn't necessarily help much, the masses will continue to inhale cheap meat as though their lives depend on it
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[18:11] <mkopack> Dman, you guys are making me hungry for a nice big steak!
[18:11] <PaulFertser> Oh "enterprise", "market demands". Here starts the evil talk... When people forget how to live a joyful life and concentrate on making some imaginary profit instead.
[18:11] <CuriosTiger> philh: Actually, their lives do. In a very literal sense.
[18:11] <traeak> heeh, eating habits....somethihg is GOING to kill you ultimately
[18:12] <mkopack> Paul: but see, that's all a matter of point of view...
[18:12] <philh> CuriosTiger, chavs need a roast dinner for under a fiver every single sunday or they'll die?
[18:12] <mkopack> If I'm somebody who owns stock in that company in order to try to improve my financial position, I WANT them to turn a profit. That benefits me.
[18:12] <CuriosTiger> philh: They need food regularly or they'll die. The specifics you can argue about, but food is a necessity. :)
[18:12] <PaulFertser> mkopack: heh, there's no universal frame reference indeed.
[18:12] <traeak> children cannot be vegetarian, they need things that can only be found in meat products in proper quantity
[18:13] <traeak> anyways
[18:13] <philh> CuriosTiger, but cheaply mass produced meat is not
[18:13] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Adult vegetarians still require diet supplements to remain healthy.
[18:13] <mkopack> And by "Market demands" I meant "sales"??? i.e.: If there are orders out for 1M chicken breasts that people want to eat, we need to do what we can to serve that demand
[18:13] <CuriosTiger> philh: No, it's not.
[18:13] <drazyl> mkopack ahh, but there is an argument that investing in a company purely to make money from the stock price is evil
[18:13] <mkopack> Even if that funds my retirement? Or frees up money to give to charity?
[18:13] <CuriosTiger> philh: However, I for one have no intention of giving up meat simply because I could theoretically survive on a vegetarian diet.
[18:14] <philh> CuriosTiger, who suggested that you should?
[18:14] <philh> or can you not afford to eat meat?
[18:14] <drazyl> mkopack in theory you should invest in a company because you believe in it's success in the long term, not to make money in the short-term
[18:14] <mkopack> People get up in arms over big oil companies, but I bet every one of you who has a retirement fund has shares out of a mutual or retirement fund IN those big oil companies!
[18:14] <drazyl> not me
[18:14] <drazyl> largely because I don't have a retirement fund
[18:15] <traeak> from what I understand "big oil" isnt' *that* profitable per employee, it's just that the industry is so big
[18:15] <drazyl> however, I have worked for an oil company, and they are a lot less evil than people think
[18:15] <CuriosTiger> philh: I can afford to eat meat even if prices quadruple. But the implication in this debate (not from any one person, simply from a vegetarian/carnivore perspective) is that one should avoid eating meat in order to prevent animals from being treated unethically.
[18:15] <traeak> it's lots of money
[18:15] <drazyl> oooh no, big oil is hugely profitable
[18:15] <traeak> just not high margins
[18:15] <traeak> it's also capital intensive for exploration, etc
[18:15] <CuriosTiger> drazyl: Not as profitable as you'd think.
[18:15] <drazyl> every new field is a risk
[18:15] <philh> CuriosTiger, i think you've missed any points i've attempted to make, though i'm sure that's not your fault, i probably wasn't very clear
[18:16] <CuriosTiger> drazyl: Lots of those profits go to the governments on whose territories the oil is extracted.
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[18:16] <PaulFertser> mkopack: it looks like you do not think most people in "developed countries" earn more than they need to be happy.
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[18:16] <drazyl> CuriosTiger I disagree, having been in on a couple of major board meetings in the late 90s
[18:16] <CuriosTiger> drazyl: I work for an oil company, so I know a bit about this.
[18:16] <drazyl> (I was the invisible IT guy in the background :)
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[18:16] <CuriosTiger> drazyl: If we sell a barrel of oil for 125 dollars, we're left with about 40 dollars after everyone else gets their cut.
[18:17] <CuriosTiger> That's still a healthy profit, but it's not as obscene as some people think.
[18:17] <CuriosTiger> and, as was pointed out above...finding, extracting and refining oil is not cheap.
[18:17] <mkopack> Paul: Eh, maybe??? but I also feel like I work to get what I have and the advantage of living in a 1st world country is that I can afford the opportunity to make choices. As long as I pay the bill, why should I have to accept less if I don't feel like it? Now, if you want to raise the price to make it less attractive to me to get me to consume less, ok.
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[18:17] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Actually, not ok.
[18:18] <CuriosTiger> I don't like the concept of forcing people into a "desired" behavior through taxation or price controls.
[18:18] <traeak> i agree entirely with CuriousTiger. that smacks of social engineering
[18:18] <PaulFertser> mkopack: that was a general remark concerning "making profits". I see many people overwork and get unhappy while they can actually work less and have more joy (and choices) at the same time.
[18:18] <traeak> which is *NOT* what government is for
[18:18] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Except virtually all governments engage in it. :(
[18:18] <mkopack> mind you, I also make about double the national standard income, and don't have any dependents, so I can afford a lot more freedoms than most
[18:19] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Where do you liv?
[18:19] <CuriosTiger> *live
[18:19] <traeak> CuriosTiger: the result being waste, slavery, etc.
[18:19] <PaulFertser> "It's all inside you head, you know". Freedom is mostly about how you feel, not how much you earn or where you live.
[18:19] <mkopack> Curious: True.. but at the same time, there are cases where I think the people won't do what really needs to be done so gov has to kinda push them a bit towards the right thing
[18:19] <mkopack> Atlanta, GA
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[18:20] <traeak> mkopack: why should we trust a bunch of lawyers to push us the right direction ?
[18:20] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: That assumes the government knows "what needs to be done"
[18:20] <mkopack> Personally, I think gas prices are WAY too low in this country???
[18:20] <mkopack> True
[18:20] <mkopack> and that's the problem
[18:20] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: That is an extremely dangerous assumption.
[18:20] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: So move to a country with higher gas prices.
[18:20] <CuriosTiger> My basic point of view is that governments should not be allowed to criminalize victimless behavior.
[18:21] <CuriosTiger> of course, you can argue about what constitutes victimless.
[18:21] <traeak> mkopack: any modern economy first and foremost depends on energy, acess and availability.
[18:21] <traeak> the way to kill a modern economy is to starve energy sources...the people that end up getting hurt the most are the most poor
[18:21] <mkopack> Curious: I just look at it from the economic standpoint - we're addicted to cheap gas/oil??? we know that can't last forever. We keep borrowing to pay for it from the middle east. Again, that can't last forever. I'm all for using gov controls to alter behavior towards economy and efficiency for things like higher fuel efficiency on cars, reducing pollution, and encouraging alternative energy
[18:22] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: should government prevent people from using drugs, e.g. by taxing tobacco or alcohol or other recreational drugs? Should government allow people to hurt themselves?
[18:22] <mkopack> Paul: Some would say drugs should be legal??? I'm not a fan of that.
[18:22] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: I'm all against using gov controls for that, particularly when I see how harebrained governments are about it.
[18:22] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: No and yes, respectively.
[18:22] <mkopack> the point is, we all have different feelings on all these subjects
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[18:23] <CuriosTiger> I'm not necessarily a fan of legalizing drugs, but my basic standpoint remains that if I'm not hurting anyone else, it's not really the government's business what I'm doing.
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[18:23] <PaulFertser> mkopack: do you prefer current situtation where drugs trade directly helps criminals?
[18:23] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: If you want to get off the oil addiction, you need to provide the world with an alternative.
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[18:23] <CuriosTiger> Lamenting that "oil is bad" won't do.
[18:23] <mkopack> Now, I'm ALL AGAINST the whole E85 ethanol stuff.. because it's been proven that it doesn't reduce consumption and save any money at all??? It takes as much oil to grow the corn that is turned into ethanol as you would have used just to burn it directly in the cars???
[18:24] <CuriosTiger> It takes more, mkopack. Substantially more.
[18:24] <ShiftPlusOne2> so... saying bacon is tasty can lead to quite an intense discussion. =/
[18:24] <traeak> mkopack: e85 generation actually wastes a LOT of water
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[18:24] <CuriosTiger> Also, E85 is less efficient than gasoline, so you burn more fuel.
[18:24] <des2> The ethonal thing in the US is basically a scam for large corn producers.
[18:24] <CuriosTiger> ShiftPlusOne2: Yep.
[18:24] <mkopack> Curious: Right, but as long as oil/gas prices are low, there's limited impetus to find an alternative. That's the point of the higher taxation and such - to artificially cause the impetus to change to a better alternative
[18:24] <CuriosTiger> des2: s/in the US/in the world/
[18:24] <mkopack> CuriousL Exactly??? takes more fuel to go the same distance
[18:25] <mkopack> Shift: LOL
[18:25] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Yes, and simultaneously, you cause people to lose their jobs because they can't afford to drive to work. You force parents to get up at 4 in the morning to take their kids to kindergarten via public transit.
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[18:25] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: You cause price inflation by driving up the cost of goods (which have to be transported somehow)
[18:25] <mkopack> Anyhow, there's no right or wrong answer to ANY of this. Everyone has their own view on the subjects involved.
[18:26] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: In the end, wages have to go up to keep pace with that inflation, and you've accomplished nothing.
[18:26] <des2> So the week is over in the UK. And no one apparently has any PIs.
[18:26] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Sure there is. My view is right, your view is wrong. :-D
[18:26] <mkopack> Personally I don't have a problem with anyone having their own opinion, or discussing those opinions. I draw the line though when it turns into "I'm right, you're wrong, you have to live with MY rules imposed by my feelings, screw yours."
[18:27] <CuriosTiger> but do you draw the line using a sustainably produced marker?
[18:27] <mkopack> discussion is good??? ultimatum = bad
[18:27] <traeak> des2: it's all a scam
[18:27] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: why can't those people establish some small kindergarten somewhere nearer?
[18:27] <slaeshjag> I think the long-travel culture is a big part of the problem. The gas price here is approaching the equivalent of 9 USD / gallon, and it still works out :)
[18:27] <mkopack> Paul: Not always possible
[18:27] <traeak> the us is large with sparse population
[18:28] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: They can, but that takes resources. You require a building (environmental cost), utilities (environmental cost), staff (labor cost) and you're still not free of the economic constraints that say you have to be able to pay for all of those.
[18:28] <des2> It would be nice if RPF took some time from medical updates and rubber cats to tell people the location status of the 10,000 PIs.
[18:28] <traeak> you just can't make the us into europe, it will never happen and frankly i don't want that
[18:28] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Also, space is an issue in many places.
[18:28] <mkopack> For instance, I have to drive 75 miles a day to get to work and back. I bought my house long before I had this job. and then they moved our office twice??? With the current housing market I can't afford to sell the house to move closer.
[18:28] <traeak> mkopack: that sucks hard, that has to be old
[18:28] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: So what would you do if fuel cost 20 bucks a gallon?
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[18:29] <mkopack> Yeah, nearly 2 hours a day wasted sitting in the car, often in stop and go traffic
[18:29] <PaulFertser> mkopack: i'd prefer to rent a small apartment somewhere closer to the office, i see no benefit in leaving in a private house.
[18:29] <mkopack> Curious: I buy a smaller car!
[18:29] <mkopack> I did the eco-friendly thing for 8 years driving a little Scion Xa shit box.
[18:29] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: So now you're cramped, less comfortable and placing your life at bigger risk
[18:29] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: And still sitting in traffic for two hours a day.
[18:29] <mkopack> After 8 years I said "enough is enough"??? Now I have a nice big luxury Explorer Limited :)
[18:29] <CuriosTiger> Is that an improvement?
[18:30] <mkopack> Does it hurt when I fill up the explorer vs the Scion??? YES...
[18:30] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: A coworker of mine bought a Toyota Prius.
[18:30] <mkopack> But I can afford the price difference...
[18:30] <mkopack> If I couldn't, I wouldn't have bought the explorer
[18:30] <PaulFertser> mkopack: is driving a car a pleasure for you?
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[18:30] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: So you want the government to use their price controls to make other people's lives less comfortable, while you ignore them because of your relatively higher income?
[18:31] <CuriosTiger> that seems selfish.
[18:31] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: comfort is overrated
[18:31] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: My point about the Prius, btw...my car is older, not a hybrid, and twice the size. And I still get the same fuel mileage he does.
[18:31] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: I like being comfortable, particularly when it comes to an activity I'll spend a lot of hours doing (driving)
[18:31] <traeak> prius is stupid. european diesels are far more efficient and simpler
[18:32] <traeak> but the US has decided to try to eradicate diesel
[18:32] <mkopack> Hybrids are a complete waste of money unless you either drive a TON of miles???. We did the numbers last night (buddy of mine and I while sitting at the bar)??? You have to drive like 20,000K miles/year and gas has to go up to $5.00USD (currently around $3.65) to break even in 5 years vs buying a similar sized gas car (due mostly to a huge price markup on the hybrid)
[18:32] <CuriosTiger> traeak: My point precisely. I drive a diesel Audi A8.
[18:32] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Most people who buy a hybrid car don't do it to save money. They do it to pretend they're helping the environment.
[18:32] <mkopack> And in most cases, it takes you > 8 years to makeup the price difference
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[18:32] <traeak> hybrids become far less efficient in cold weather as well
[18:32] <CuriosTiger> (and I do mean pretend -- the batteries that go into hybrids are a recipe for environmental disaster. Nothing but toxins.)
[18:32] <mkopack> Pretend being the key word there
[18:33] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: i do not understand why people should drive a lot every day.
[18:33] <mkopack> nevermind the pollution involved in making that battery pack!
[18:33] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Because it's not feasible for everyone to live and work in the same palce.
[18:33] <des2> Yes Hybrids don't really make economic sense at the moment.
[18:33] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: But while you didn't direct the question at me...I *do* enjoy driving.
[18:33] <CuriosTiger> And I drive for pleasure.
[18:33] <des2> Because of the price premium they command.
[18:33] <drazyl> we get to pay $8.19 per US gallon equivalent
[18:33] <traeak> des2: i don't think they ever will frankly. more complex systems usually arent the answer, especially when diesel is there today
[18:33] <CuriosTiger> I could cut my yearly mileage in half
[18:34] <mkopack> And yes, I do enjoy driving, just that 75 miles a day gets old??? It's more enjoyable when I'm on the motorcycle :)
[18:34] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: why not live near some train station with a direct train to the places you need usually?
[18:34] <mkopack> (and doing 100MPH)
[18:34] <CuriosTiger> However, like mkopack, I can afford to drive, and I choose to do so.
[18:34] <traeak> PaulFertser: you don't live anywhere in the US do you?
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[18:34] <mkopack> Paul :because that doesn't EXIST here in the states in most cities
[18:34] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: First, it's not feasible to build rail to all the places I want to go. Second, trains pollute too.
[18:34] <mkopack> paul: We have rail here in Atlanta??? It doesn't go ANYWHERE that I need to get to
[18:34] <PaulFertser> traeak: i do not, indeed. I live in Moscow-the-big-croweded-awful-city.
[18:35] <CuriosTiger> drazyl: About $10.50 here atm.
[18:35] <traeak> PaulFertser: very different animal
[18:35] <drazyl> anyway, the weekend beckons
[18:35] <PaulFertser> traeak: of course
[18:35] <mkopack> My job is outside the city limits. No train. My house is also ouside the city limits, in the opposite direction
[18:35] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Why is Moscow awful?
[18:35] <mkopack> American cities are WAY WAY different than european ones??? VERY spread out
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[18:36] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: _very_ inefficient road traffic system.
[18:36] <mkopack> I've been to Moscow - you COULD mostly get around on the subway there. In fact, when I was there there were VERY few cars (granted that was in 89)
[18:36] <CuriosTiger> I've never been to Moscow.
[18:36] <des2> It is surprisingly expensive to build rail in the US
[18:36] <CuriosTiger> I've contemplated a trip to Russia, but I'm honestly more interested in seeing St. Petersburg.
[18:36] <PaulFertser> In fact i can afford to drive a car too but i see no sense in doing so. Whenever i can, i use a bicycle.
[18:36] <mkopack> des: Yeah, because the land is all owned, nobody wants it in their back yard, and to ge the land, the gov has to spend a fortune
[18:36] <ShiftPlusOne2> CuriosTiger, excellent.... St petersburg is where it's at.
[18:37] <mkopack> Sure Paul??? It would take me ALL DAY to ride a bicycle to work...
[18:37] <traeak> people in the us are quite free to move around and change jobs
[18:37] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Commendable. I'm too lazy to ride a bicycle to work, particularly in the morning when I'm tired, and particularly when it's cold or the weather is nasty.
[18:37] <PaulFertser> I've given my car to friends almost a year ago, still haven't get around to take it back.
[18:37] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Not quite true.
[18:37] <mkopack> And my legs would look like the Hulks' in a month!
[18:37] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Finding a good job in the US is quite difficult for most people atm.
[18:37] <CuriosTiger> Most Americans I know are afraid of being laid off because they're not sure they can find another job.
[18:38] <PaulFertser> mkopack: what i can't understand is why americans like private houses so much.
[18:38] <mkopack> Curious: I think he means that we have the option to do so???
[18:38] <traeak> CuriosTiger: true for now, there's reason for that but not worth discussing now :-p
[18:38] <traeak> CuriosTiger: it involves the US government having grown gigantic
[18:38] <CuriosTiger> traeak: There are many reasons for it.
[18:38] <CuriosTiger> but yes, the US government is a juggernaut and needs to be cut down to size.
[18:38] <mkopack> Paul: It's the history and culture of America??? Remember we grew out of a desire to be free from external control, to have land of our own, and the freedom to do what we want on it
[18:38] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: I'm not American, but I like private houses because I like, well, privacy.
[18:39] <mkopack> Many people here DO live in apartments, but I HATE them...
[18:39] <PaulFertser> mkopack: yes, but the times are changing
[18:39] <mkopack> Exactly, privacy is a big thing too
[18:39] <PaulFertser> How did your government manage to drag "Patriot Act" then?
[18:39] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: It's one thing that you choose to live in an apartment because it's cheaper, or you can be more central, or you see some other benefit.
[18:40] <mkopack> I like having my own house, where I can do whatever the hell I want in it - if I want to put a garden in the back yard, I can. If I want to work on the motorcycle in the garage ,I can. If I want to blast my stereo I can. Nobody gets pissed because they can do what they want in THEIR house
[18:40] <CuriosTiger> But I find it hard to believe that you're unable to understand the benefits of having a private house.
[18:40] <mkopack> Curiou: If he's never living in a private home, he has no frame of reference
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[18:40] <mkopack> I HATED living in apartments and dorms in college??? It sucked.
[18:40] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Correction: If he's never SEEN or BEEN in a private home, he has no frame of reference. He doesn't have to live in one.
[18:40] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: i can understand the benefits but there're considerable disadvantages too. What i really miss in an appartment is the garage to work on my motorcycle, that's true.
[18:41] <mkopack> Always had some neighbor making noise when I was trying to sleep, or not having a place to park, not having any room to put stuff in the apartment, etc.
[18:41] <CuriosTiger> Plenty of Russians understand the benefits of private homes. Hell, look at the dachas -- they even like vacation homes :)
[18:41] <PaulFertser> I've seen and lived in private homes.
[18:41] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: There are pros and cons with anything.
[18:41] <CuriosTiger> I live in an apartment temporarily
[18:42] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: yeah, plenty of dachas here :)) but i do not understand why one needs a dacha if you can just live in a tent for a few days wherever you want.
[18:42] <mkopack> Some people here LOVE living down in the city in apartments??? Mostly that's the younger 20-somethigns because they feel they're close to everything and can be more social and not financially tied down to anything.
[18:42] <mkopack> but usually once they get married they move out to the suburbs and buy a house
[18:42] <CuriosTiger> I don't want to buy a house here because I'm planning to move soon, and also because houses here are ridiculously expensive (around 800K and up for something small and crappy)
[18:42] <mkopack> Where you are Curio?
[18:42] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: My answer to that is called an RV (or a motorhome)
[18:42] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Stavanger, Norway
[18:42] <mkopack> Ah. nice
[18:42] <ShiftPlusOne2> CuriosTiger, damn... I thought Melbourne was expensive.
[18:43] <CuriosTiger> It's my favorite part of Norway, but I'm planning to move back to the US.
[18:43] <mkopack> Yeha, I've considered the Big RV solution??? but it just wouldn't work for me??? I like having tools and a garage and such
[18:43] <CuriosTiger> ShiftPlusOne2: Norwegians who go on vacation in Australia are stunned by how incredibly cheap everything is.
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[18:43] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: See, I want both.
[18:43] <CuriosTiger> I want the RV for vacation trips
[18:43] <CuriosTiger> and a house to live in.
[18:43] <mkopack> yeah! LOL
[18:43] <mkopack> a NICE RV is NOT cheap though
[18:44] <PaulFertser> You guys obviously value "comfort" much more than i do.
[18:44] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: No, but I make good money (around 150K/yr)
[18:44] <mkopack> yeah
[18:44] <PaulFertser> But comfort ties one's hands.
[18:44] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: At US prices, I can afford one
[18:44] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, are you a Buddhist or something?
[18:44] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: How so?
[18:44] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: i'm agnostic
[18:44] <mkopack> Paul: all depends on your wants and needs??? to some, it's considered an asset not a burden
[18:44] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: you get used to it, and that's an extra dependency.
[18:44] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: I value comfort. I could even be accused of being hedonistic.
[18:44] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, that's not mutually exclusive. Buddha said God is irrelevant.
[18:45] <CuriosTiger> As long as my comfort does not come at someone else's expense, I'm ok with it.
[18:45] <CuriosTiger> ShiftPlusOne2: I thought it was the Borg that said that.
[18:45] <ShiftPlusOne2> Well yeah, the Borg too.
[18:46] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: As for your price controls..
[18:46] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: yes, if you consider some more "philosophical" interpretation of Buddhism, indeed.
[18:46] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: One of the reasons I plan to move from Norway to the US (not the primary reason, but still) is because US fuel prices are low.
[18:46] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Higher fuel prices would be a deterrent.
[18:47] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: The question is....is the environmental impact of having me in the US (which would exist even if I live elsewhere) worse than the financial benefit of having me in the US (as a taxpayer)?
[18:47] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, no... literal Buddhism from the scriptures.... from the Pali Canon.
[18:47] <ShiftPlusOne2> But anyway, I'll take that as a no =)
[18:47] <PaulFertser> My point about comfort is that it really hides what's important.
[18:47] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: What's important?
[18:47] <mkopack> Curious: Relative to Europe, yeah, WAY low??? And don't take what I said as gospel - I totally get that there are plusses and minuses to the concept of gov intervention in pricing??? Some group will ALWAYS cry foul when gov intervention doesn't go their way..
[18:48] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: I have a hobby that's currently parked in Texas while I'm over here.
[18:48] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: That hobby gets 4 mpg. Maybe 5 on a good day.
[18:48] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@t410xx.student.rit.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[18:48] <mkopack> hehe. Race car?
[18:48] <traeak> answer: don't make the government a player, problem solved
[18:48] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Would you deny me the right to have that hobby?
[18:48] <mkopack> No, not at all
[18:48] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: A big rig.
[18:48] <mkopack> ah
[18:48] <traeak> otherwise government ends up being used by one gropu to force their will on another
[18:48] <CuriosTiger> traeak+++
[18:48] <mkopack> true
[18:49] <CuriosTiger> mkopack: Also, a prohibitively high fuel tax (one sufficient to actually reduce demand, which was your stated goal) would put me out of a job
[18:49] <mkopack> I DID vote for Ron Paul, BTW.. LOL
[18:49] <CuriosTiger> since it would reduce my employer's profit to the point where they may not be able to afford me.
[18:49] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: i think it's important to make good things to bring joy to as much people as possible (but it's not quantity that matters). And art.
[18:49] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Driving my big truck brings me joy.
[18:49] <mkopack> ah, the artists??? lol
[18:49] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: what about the others?
[18:50] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Enjoying a comfortable heated seat while I listen to the radio on my way to work also brings me joy.
[18:50] <traeak> PaulFertser: that's most effective when done on a personal level, not at the gunpoint of the government deciding how to allocate your money
[18:50] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: you sound really selfish ;)
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[18:50] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Not really. I'm perfectly OK with you enjoying the same things.
[18:50] <PaulFertser> traeak: i'm not pro-goverment. But i see people think a lot about their own comfort without caring to bring joy to the others.
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[18:50] <mkopack> No??? "WHERE THE F IS MY R PI?!??!!? I WANT IT NOW NOW NOW!" - that is selfish :)
[18:50] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Ultimately, it's about freedom. You should be free to life your life in a way that makes you happy. So should I.
[18:51] <traeak> PaulFertser: to some extent that's how captalism properly works. You make yourself better and enough people do that with integrety they drag everyone else along with them
[18:51] <mkopack> Why is it my responsibility to make sure you're happy? SHouldn't you be taking care of that on you own? Personal responsibility
[18:51] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: I may choose to bring joy to others in various ways, whether that means buying flowers for my wife or volunteering at an animal sanctuary.
[18:51] <mkopack> I work hard to get what I have that makes me happy.
[18:51] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: But that should be my choice. It shouldn't be forced on me.
[18:52] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: well, if not for the many people who e.g. wrote all the software i use i'd be considerably less happy. They shared. And i'm glad they did. So i think i should share too. And i'd like see everybody sharing.
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[18:52] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: So would I.
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[18:52] <mkopack> why am I also supposed to give much of my income away so somebody who didn't make the same life choices and sacrifices and put in the same level of effort be given the same things I worked for to earn to make me happy?
[18:52] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: However, I don't want to force anyone to share.
[18:52] <CuriosTiger> That would take away their freedom, and make THEM less happy.
[18:52] <traeak> CuriosTiger: in fact i would say that's a violation of religious freedom. Personal charity is a command. When government taxes high, they kill people's ability to properly get involved in personal charity
[18:53] <markus__> lol
[18:53] <CuriosTiger> traeak: You're stretching that argument a bit thin.
[18:53] <CuriosTiger> traeak: I'd say personal charity shouldn't be a command and that religions that impose it violate personal freedom. :P
[18:53] <mkopack> traeak: Read Glenn Beck's "Broke" ??? That's his argument as well
[18:53] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Charity isn't necessarily selfless, either.
[18:53] <ShiftPlusOne2> Lol.... Glenn Beck.
[18:54] <CuriosTiger> I did spend four years volunteering for an exotic animal sanctuary. And I did some fairly laborious and low-status work, up to and including scooping poop.
[18:54] <mkopack> Eh, it was an interesting book??? attacked BOTH parties equally and explained how they've both screwed over the American public
[18:54] <CuriosTiger> But I also got to interact with some fantastic animals that most people will never see except in a zoo.
[18:54] <traeak> CuriosTiger: when socialism has gone out ofhand like it has in the US it becomes a very valid argument
[18:54] <CuriosTiger> that was an amazing experience, and made the hard work worth it.
[18:54] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Socialism out of hand in the US?
[18:55] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Dude, you need to visit Europe.
[18:55] <slaeshjag> In socialist europe, taxes pays for you! >:)
[18:55] <traeak> CuriosTiger: half my family lives there, europe is almost a lost cause :-p
[18:55] <CuriosTiger> traeak: Still, calling the US socialist smacks of paranoia. :P
[18:56] <mkopack> yeah, we're FAR from European Socialism
[18:56] <slaeshjag> traeak: And I think USA is a lost cause :)
[18:56] <markus__> i lives there in "communist" europe
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[18:56] <CuriosTiger> markus_: Lots of people do.
[18:56] <traeak> slaeshjag: it's getting there...FDR started the long fall
[18:56] <des2> What is out of hand is debt.
[18:56] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: do i understand it right that your prefer BSD-like to GPL?
[18:56] <des2> People want lots of things but don't want to pay for them.
[18:56] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: No
[18:57] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: I prefer for the author of the software to have a CHOICE as to what license to use. GPL, BSD, proprietary, whatever.
[18:57] <slaeshjag> des2: No money? PRINT MOAR!
[18:57] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: That should be the developer's choice to make. Not mine.
[18:57] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: but GPL basically forces to share, by its very nature called "copyleft".
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[18:57] <markus__> CuriosTiger: you have, don't you?
[18:57] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: I am perfectly familiar with the GPL. But a software author is not the government.
[18:57] <des2> I miss Public Domain software.
[18:57] <markus__> if you make something you can use whatever license you want for it, and many choose GPL
[18:57] <des2> There used to be so much of it.
[18:57] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: If a software author wants to impose GPL conditions on his software, I'm perfectly fine with that.
[18:58] <des2> Now it's all coipyrighted.
[18:58] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: IF the government passes a law that says ALL software must be GPLed, I'm not fine with that.
[18:58] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Do you see the difference?
[18:58] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: indeed. But i never said i'm pro governmental restrictions.
[18:59] <markus__> what if the government change the copyright laws so it in practive will be the same as having all software GPLed without the need for any specific license?
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[18:59] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: Well, it's kind of implied in the idea of FORCING other people to behave a certain way
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[18:59] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: A software author cannot force me. If his software is GPLed and I use it, I must comply with the GPL. But I have a choice of not using his software, too.
[18:59] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: neither did i express a desire to force anybody doing anything.
[18:59] <markus__> CuriosTiger: the government already does that in so many ways
[18:59] <CuriosTiger> markus_: Also not OK. That would deprive a lot of people of their livelihoods.
[19:00] <CuriosTiger> markus_: I know
[19:00] <markus__> so you are against laws and enforcing them? mmmkay
[19:00] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, can your ideology with respect to how society SHOULD be work without a central authority telling people what they can and can't do(more-so than now)?
[19:00] <CuriosTiger> markus__: No, I'm against SOME laws.
[19:00] <ShiftPlusOne2> *can and can't do
[19:00] <ShiftPlusOne2> wait... that's what I typed in the first place... nvrm.
[19:00] <CuriosTiger> markus__: In particular, I'm against the mindset that you just trust the government to always do the right thing. They don't.
[19:01] <markus__> correct. but sometimes it's better than some alternatives
[19:01] <CuriosTiger> markus__: And sometimes, the tide is higher than other times.
[19:02] <mkopack> Anyhow, let's get back to Bacon??? YUM
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[19:02] <CuriosTiger> dammit, now you made me hungry
[19:02] <mkopack> Bacon Wrapped Sirloin??? I thikn I'm going to get that for dinner tonight
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[19:02] <mkopack> Maybe a visit to Outback is in order after work
[19:02] <CuriosTiger> I'm going to have leftover pizza.
[19:02] <markus__> CuriosTiger: what are you, an anarchist?
[19:03] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: i have no good model of how a good society should work, alas. I would think what could work is to gradually move away from the consumerism. I think if some government slightly pushed people away from the consumerism to, say, free art, that would probably be ok.
[19:03] <CuriosTiger> I don't really want to, but while I'm happy to pollute the environment with my driving, I don't actually waste for the purpose of wasting.
[19:03] <CuriosTiger> markus__: Um....what makes you think that?
[19:03] <mkopack> I think we all need to run off and play SimCity for a month and then reconvene and compare cities based on our individual governing approaches :)
[19:04] <CuriosTiger> markus_: Do you understand what we were actually debating?
[19:04] <markus__> CuriosTiger: i'm just asking. long shot
[19:04] <mkopack> Actually "Sim Nation:" would be a cool game
[19:04] <markus__> CuriosTiger: GPL? :)
[19:04] <PaulFertser> Btw, i feel how driving a car makes me more aggressive. It's like the car is telling me "push it, push it". And that's no good on a public road.
[19:04] <mkopack> Make you deal with fiscal policy, taxation, foreign policy, etc.
[19:04] <mkopack> Civilization is KINDA like that but nowhere near as detailed enough
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[19:04] <CuriosTiger> markus: We were discussing whether it's appropriate for a government to achieve policy goals by forcing the population to behave in a certain way.
[19:05] <CuriosTiger> PaulFertser: I'm not an aggressive driver.
[19:05] <markus__> isn't that what poltics is all about?
[19:05] <mkopack> Paul: Shit, I've seen the way those people in Moscow drive, you HAVE to push it or your getting rear-ended or run off the road!
[19:05] <PaulFertser> CuriosTiger: there's forcing and there's forcing. Gradually influencing people is probably not a bad thing.
[19:06] <PaulFertser> mkopack: i can't agree. When i'm calm i drive safer.
[19:06] <markus__> freedom is a myth. the egyptians people for example just got another set of chains.
[19:06] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, ok, just wondering. I have found myself very frustrated with current laws and the legal system in general... with consumerism, capitalism and society at large. Then I started actualy learning about how everything came about and what the alternatives are... and it seems to me that our society is better than it has ever been, even if we're not quite there yet... in fact I think there is no 'quite there' to be at and society
[19:06] <ShiftPlusOne2> is pretty much optimal as it is and it's just constantly improving. Perhaps there are some setbacks here and there, but the general trend is that we're doing alright.
[19:07] <CuriosTiger> markus__: I, and some other people in the debate, believe that the role of a government is to ensure society can function. THat means basic things like preventing people from harming each other and providing the necessary infrastructure for society to function.
[19:07] <mkopack> Maybe, but you're pissing off everyone stuck behind you who want's to GO!
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[19:07] <markus__> CuriosTiger: that's sound pretty much like the neoliberal ideas
[19:07] <CuriosTiger> markus_: What we oppose is the government using laws and taxation to enforce policy goals, whatever those goals may be.
[19:07] <CuriosTiger> In short, we don't necessarily believe the government knows what's best for us.
[19:07] <CuriosTiger> markus__: "Neoliberal" is a very nebulous concept. I don't quite know what you mean by that.
[19:08] <CuriosTiger> markus_: However, I do believe we need *a* government, so that by definition means I'm not an anarchist.
[19:09] <markus__> ChrisLenz: do you prefer libertarian?
[19:09] <CuriosTiger> I have some libertarian leanings. But trying to apply that label to me is also overly simplistic.
[19:09] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: do you think people now value their freedom more than they used to in the 60s?
[19:09] <CuriosTiger> Do you think there's something wrong with having libertarian leanings?
[19:10] <markus__> CuriosTiger: yes personally i think. i'm leaning more towards libertarian socialism / anarchism
[19:11] <CuriosTiger> markus__: So what, specifically, do you think is wrong?
[19:11] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, Do you think we respected other people's freedoms as much in the 60s? We valued OUR OWN freedom in the 60s more than we do now...
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[19:12] <markus__> CuriosTiger: i don't really feel like getting involved in a complicated debate in english, but i do think that often libertarians have an oversimplistic definition of freedom
[19:12] <markus__> by they way, i don't like how RMS talks about freedom
[19:12] <markus__> that's not freedom in my point of view
[19:12] <CuriosTiger> markus__: You're the one who's being overly simplistic by trying to apply a label.
[19:13] <markus__> CuriosTiger: i'm asking i'm not trying to label you
[19:13] <CuriosTiger> markus__: You give me the impression that you disagree with me, but you have yet to state a single concrete opinion with which you disagree. That makes it very hard to have any kind of debate, complicated or otherwise.
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=161874940600546&l=c388b6d97f - offtopic
[19:13] <ShiftPlusOne2> rofl!
[19:14] <CuriosTiger> Also offtopic: http://cdn.userpics.com/original/a_little_bit_of_science_humor.jpg
[19:14] <markus__> CuriosTiger: i don't think it's a problem that the government interferes in peoples personal life because it restrains their personal freedom. i don't know if this is your point or not
[19:15] <CuriosTiger> markus__: So if the government comes to your house and takes your computer, that's ok?
[19:15] <markus__> CuriosTiger: that's out of context. but no i like my computer
[19:16] <CuriosTiger> Not at all. That would be one way the government could interfere with your personal life. Which you said was not a problem.
[19:16] <markus__> but what about all the people who cant afford a computer in the first place?
[19:16] <CuriosTiger> What about them?
[19:16] <ShiftPlusOne2> markus_, that's where the raspberry pi comes in! =D
[19:16] <CuriosTiger> ShiftPlusOne2+++
[19:16] <CuriosTiger> :DC
[19:17] <markus__> i didn't mean it's not a problem, i mean that the reason for it being a problem isn't the it restrains their personal life
[19:17] <ShiftPlusOne2> markus_, what is the reason, in your opinion?
[19:17] <CuriosTiger> Being deprived of a computer doesn't restrain you?
[19:17] <markus__> a person who can't afford a computer is restrained (is that the correct word?) as much as somebody who got their computer taken away
[19:17] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: you have a good point. I'd like to be optimistic about the current western society but what i see doesn't make me feel comfortable. Ignorance, hypocrisy and selfishness seem to be too common for that western world.
[19:18] <CuriosTiger> markus_: No. A person who cannot afford a computer can save up money, seek a better job or even receive a computer from charity. A person prohibited by the government from having a computer can do none of those things.
[19:19] <zleap> having or using
[19:19] <markus__> remember money is a gift from the state, they maintain the value of money
[19:19] <CuriosTiger> zleap: Either. The difference is immaterial in this context.
[19:19] <mkopack> Paul :That's not exclusive to the western world you know??? The chinese, Japanese, Indians are all just as bad in that regard
[19:19] <CuriosTiger> markus__: No.
[19:19] <zleap> ok
[19:19] <markus__> markus__: and that what i mean by oversimplistic view of the term "freedom"
[19:19] <CuriosTiger> Monetary systems predate modern nation-states.
[19:20] <mkopack> monetary systems are based on PERCEPTION - I perceive that this paper epresents something of worth. And that by handing it to somebody else, they're going to give me a good or service in exchange because they value it as something of worth as well.
[19:20] <PaulFertser> mkopack: i think it's the "west" that drives this tendency. The "Eastern" culture is traditionally associated with meditation, observation, Buddhism etc.
[19:21] <markus__> who has more freedom, one who can't afford a computer but has a peas or another one that had 1000 computers but got one taken away from him?
[19:21] <mkopack> and exchange rates exist because different people perceive different currencies as having different relative worth
[19:21] <mkopack> Paul: True, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive anymore to western countries
[19:21] <markus__> peas = pea
[19:21] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, and maybe always will be, but having the PERSONAL freedom to get educated, open your mind and apply reason in your own life is a step in the right direction. I think progress is about the absense of restriction. Since we have so many people with so many different opinions, we can't have a system where everyone is happy with everything, but the model based on personal freedom and pursuit of happiness is the closest I can t
[19:21] <ShiftPlusOne2> hink of.
[19:21] <mkopack> PURSUIT being the key word there
[19:22] <mkopack> Not the GUARANTEE
[19:22] <ShiftPlusOne2> yup
[19:22] <mkopack> I'm free to make the effort to pursue my happiness and success...
[19:22] <mkopack> It is NOT the gov's place to ENSURE that happens
[19:22] <markus__> living in a third world country is a big restruction, being poor is a big restriction, being of the wrong ethnicity/gender can be
[19:22] * neciO_ (~juan@253.128-246-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[19:22] <mkopack> that means some WILL fail, some will succeed..
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[19:23] <mkopack> And it is and largely SHOULD be based on our individual abilities and decisions we make throughout our lives whether we achieve it or not
[19:23] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: how do you tell the current model doesn't lead to eternal stagnation?
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[19:23] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, what kind of stagnation?
[19:24] <markus__> so what's more important, oppurtunity to succeed or the actual outcome?
[19:24] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: something like turning all the people into cattle, with goverment gaining control over everything, well, the "common" anti-utopian scenario.
[19:25] * ru55377 (~rthicking@84.92.196.188) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:25] <mkopack> not a matter of what's important, it's a matter of being free to effort it...
[19:26] <markus__> not all people have the effort, what about them?
[19:26] <mkopack> We're all CREATED equal, but from the point of birth on, it's up to us and our choices whether we succeed or not??? and our success is each measured indiivdually???
[19:26] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, I can't say that's a sustainable situation, so it can't be an end result.
[19:26] <ShiftPlusOne2> mkopack, *cough* created? =P
[19:27] * pistacik__ (~root@ip-213-220-206-109.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[19:27] <mkopack> What one person might consider success - kids, wife, 2 cars, house, vacations, I might consider a waste of time.
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[19:27] <markus__> so what do you mean that we're all created equal? do you mean that a woman in uganda is equally likely to have a good life as a guy in denmark? or is that irrelevant?
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[19:28] <mkopack> some people are perfectly happy with a job working on an assembly line, coming home, eating frozen food and watching CSI every night??? They consider themselves successful??? and happy.
[19:28] <mkopack> Others don't.
[19:28] <ShiftPlusOne2> markus_, do you feel you have the right to impose your ideals by force? No, you can only set a good example.
[19:28] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: that's i fully agree with
[19:28] <markus__> ShiftPlusOne2: what do you mean?
[19:28] <markus__> force is such a fuzzy term
[19:28] <PaulFertser> use fuzzy logic then ;)
[19:29] <markus__> for example i'm forced to eat
[19:29] <markus__> otherwise i will die
[19:29] <mkopack> markus: No, what I mean is that we all start out as clean slates??? And then our environment (nature) and how we're raised( nurture) and the choices we make in life mean that no 2 of us is guaranteed to be equal and guaranteed happiness
[19:29] <ShiftPlusOne2> markus_, what needs to change in our western system for the female in Uganda to be free?
[19:29] <markus__> and is somebody robs, he will kill me if i don't give him my wallet, that's also force
[19:29] <markus__> both will result in death if i don't comply
[19:29] <CuriosTiger> markus_: You are not forced to eat. Eating is a biological necessity, not something imposed on you by the government.
[19:29] <CuriosTiger> And the choice to not eat and die is, in fact, a freedom that you have.
[19:30] <markus__> CuriosTiger: that's where your logic fails
[19:30] <CuriosTiger> (Not necessarily a wise choice, but still a choice.)
[19:30] <CuriosTiger> markus_: How so?
[19:30] <markus__> you cannot choose not to eat
[19:30] <CuriosTiger> Yes you can. Then you die.
[19:30] <CuriosTiger> But the government had nothing to do with it.
[19:30] <ShiftPlusOne2> 'course you can..... you'll just have some consequences.
[19:30] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: i think the first thing to do is for the majority to stop lying and to start thinking. It seems like a step in the right direction.
[19:30] <markus__> if i throw you up in the air, you'll eventually kill yourself
[19:31] <CuriosTiger> We all have to deal with constraints imposed by nature. My objection is to constraints imposed artificially and without a good reason.
[19:31] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: but they instead elect g.w.bush
[19:31] <markus__> ShiftPlusOne2: long story. i don't have an answer
[19:31] <CuriosTiger> Speaking of eating, I'm hungry and that pizza sounds pretty good.
[19:31] <CuriosTiger> Time to head home.
[19:32] <CuriosTiger> back in 20 or so.
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[19:33] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, I think that's only something you can do on an individual level by setting a good example that others will hopefuly follow. "It takes passion to light passion in others" -Hitler =P
[19:33] <markus__> mkopack: do you prefer to live in a country where you have the chance to get really wealthy or a country where your chances are smaller, but you're more likely to have a decent standard of living?
[19:33] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: for people to be free they need to start thinking. If goverment can help them (e.g. by education) then i'd think that's fine.
[19:34] <mkopack> Wait a second, you're quoting HITLER??? HELLO???
[19:34] <ShiftPlusOne2> lol
[19:34] <ShiftPlusOne2> I was being ironic, but ok.
[19:34] <mkopack> lol
[19:34] <mkopack> k
[19:34] <PaulFertser> Or probably just tired of the conversation and so decided to employ the Godwin's law :)
[19:35] <ShiftPlusOne2> lol
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[19:37] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: (individual example) this wednesday during my computer programming classes i decided to do two small patches for OpenOCD hoping my students will follow my example and would do some of their programming work too. That failed, they preferred to chat.
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[19:37] <markus__> i don't find it especially giving to discuss politics with libertarians or their alikes. it's more of a meta thing
[19:38] <markus__> not saying that anyone's a libertarian
[19:39] <PaulFertser> Should i use some force to make them learn? I do not know...
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[19:40] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, They have the opportunity and working on OpenOCD may not be in everyone's best interest. I don't think that particular example is a good one.
[19:41] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: they were supposed to do their own work, not related to OpenOCD or any other project.
[19:41] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: when i do not push anybody at all, it's only a tiny amount of the students who do anything.
[19:41] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, are you a fellow student or the teacher?
[19:41] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: teacher
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[19:42] <ShiftPlusOne2> what level?
[19:42] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: low-end university
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[19:43] <ShiftPlusOne2> You can 'punish' people in university?
[19:43] <markus__> PaulFertser: aren't they commited to learning?
[19:43] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: yes, basically i decide their grades.
[19:43] <PaulFertser> markus__: most of them aren't.
[19:43] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, surely based on the work they produce....?
[19:43] * Threepio (~Threepio@216.251.152.114) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[19:44] <markus__> PaulFertser: it sounds like an interesting course to me
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[19:45] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: well, in fact i can mostly do whatever i want.
[19:46] <ShiftPlusOne2> PaulFertser, lol, what the hell kind of university is that? Grading people on anything other than output is kind of unethical, I think.
[19:46] <PaulFertser> markus__: i teach freshmen some C and Scheme, then a year later they do a project (some game, usually using SDL), then for half a year they have an opportunity to develop their own embedded microcontroller-based device.
[19:47] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: we have no standardised tests, so all the teachers are mostly arbitrary in their decisions.
[19:47] * markus_ (~markus@h-35-55.a336.priv.bahnhof.se) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:48] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: but i'm trying to be fair in my judgements.
[19:48] <ShiftPlusOne2> hm.. not sure how that ties back into leading by example in the context of society at large.
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[19:49] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: i meant many people need some "force" to be applied to them or else they'll never learn.
[19:50] <ShiftPlusOne2> ah, so as an authority figure you have to push sometimes for change so it may be ok for some government intervention?
[19:50] * |uen| is now known as uen
[19:50] <PaulFertser> ShiftPlusOne2: probably so, i'm not sure.
[19:51] <ShiftPlusOne2> Yeah, I think I am all opinionated out for now >.>
[19:52] <mkopack> Here's to hoping we start getting RPi's next week so we have something new to talk about!
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[19:53] <mkopack> "R-Pi's delayed??? Anachy ensues!"
[19:53] <mkopack> Anarchy
[19:53] <ShiftPlusOne2> we can always talk about the reason that it was delayed.
[19:53] <ShiftPlusOne2> .....that's usually something new...
[19:53] <mkopack> WW3 erupts in IRC
[19:53] <mkopack> lol
[19:54] <mkopack> Shift: well, there's a couple postings in the forums that seem to indicate some hope that we'll start seeing some move next week
[19:54] <Matt> or we could go back to reminiscing about the computers we grew up with
[19:54] <mkopack> C-64 playing Raid Over Moscow!
[19:54] <_av500_> +1
[19:54] <des2> People still clinging to hope...
[19:54] <mkopack> the fools
[19:55] <ShiftPlusOne2> raid over moscow? sounds like some cold-war era game O_o
[19:55] <des2> I would just like to know where the 10,000 are...
[19:55] <mkopack> I'm just glad my prof decided not to open up the final exam for my GFX class until the later half of next week. Gives me some extra days to study for it
[19:55] <piofcube> Anyone have an "intelivision" console?
[19:55] <mkopack> Shift: Well, it WAS the 1980's!
[19:55] <ShiftPlusOne2> lol... checked wikipedia "Released during the Cold War era, Raid Over Moscow is an action game in which the player (an American space pilot) has to stop three Soviet attacks on North America, then fight his way into and destroy Moscow's nuclear facility."
[19:55] <mkopack> pio: I've played with one.
[19:56] <piofcube> mkopack: I have all the tron games on it.. fun
[19:56] <mkopack> And I have a DVD full of ROMs for one to emulate
[19:56] <piofcube> had
[19:56] <ShiftPlusOne2> mkopack, I was mostly referring to the mindset rather than the actual time period, but fair enough.
[19:56] <mkopack> Shift: Yup! Just getting the damn space plane out of the space station was a bitch at times!
[19:56] <piofcube> Jet Set Willy FTW
[19:57] <zleap> yay
[19:57] <ShiftPlusOne2> heh "The game is famous in Finland for the political effect its content had. A Communist-affiliated member of the Finnish parliament went as far as to make a parliamentary question about whether it was acceptable to sell the game.[1][2] The resulting debate and publicity made the game a top seller in the country after that.[3]"
[19:57] <mkopack> It followed semi-realistic physics??? you start moving in a direction, it kept going until yo turned around and gave it opposite thrust
[19:57] <mjr> ShiftPlusOne2, I was about to comment on that
[19:57] <zleap> what has jet set willy got to do with politics
[19:57] <mkopack> and the "door" to get out of the space station hanger wasn't particularly large
[19:57] <mjr> reportedly the USSR also nudged our politicians a bit on it
[19:58] <piofcube> Yep.. sure fire way to make people want something is for a politician to say "don't have it"
[19:58] <mkopack> you remember all the political crap over Tetris???
[19:58] <ShiftPlusOne2> there was political crap over tetris?
[19:58] <mkopack> Yeah
[19:58] <zleap> not sure,
[19:58] <mjr> piofcube, I'm given to understand that the Finnish dudes replied as much
[19:58] <mkopack> Over the rights to the game, royalties, etc.
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[19:59] <zleap> i jsut remembered that we buggered up loads of mac keyboards playing it, well actually it was year 7 that did that, us year 12s just kinda caused the issue
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[20:00] <mkopack> You guys see this? http://imgur.com/lvu88
[20:01] <mkopack> He doesn't say when he got his order in though
[20:02] <mkopack> Another guy got one of those emails as well??? but likewise didn't state when he got his order in
[20:02] <zleap> hmm. i need to convince the after school club to k eep hold of the tv i gave em it will be ideal for the raspberry PI
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[20:13] <mkopack> Hmm??? buy a new monitor that has HDMI + sound, or get a cheap TV? or just hook it to one of my 2 LCD TV's at home?
[20:13] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[20:14] <mkopack> The problem is they're in the living room + master bedroom, so not exactly keyboard+mouse friendly environments
[20:14] <mkopack> (wired)
[20:14] <mkopack> Bedroom unit is easier to get at the HDMI jacks but HORRIBLY non-ergonomic workspace for using the RPi
[20:15] <PaulFertser> mkopack: how do you plan to use it btw?
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[20:15] <mkopack> Well, there's obviously the initial "get everything up and running, and tweaked" use
[20:15] <mkopack> But eventually I'd like to use one on a robotics project
[20:15] <mkopack> and the other for just general linux use
[20:16] <mkopack> possibly HTPC use on an old SD TV so I can watch recorded stuff across my LAN on my old SDTV while on the treadmill at night
[20:16] * phi- is now known as mphi
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[20:17] <mkopack> But trying to do text mode on an SDTV over composite is going to be PAINFUL
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[20:17] <mkopack> And none of my computer monitors have an HDMI input jack, otherwise I'd just use one of those
[20:17] <mkopack> the DVI's are all tied up by my Mac Pro
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[20:18] <unkle_george> use ssh -Y or vnc
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[20:19] * CuriosTiger wanders back in
[20:19] <mkopack> I can get a 23" 1080P cheepie TV for $169+ tax locally
[20:20] <mkopack> At that point I'd just replace the old SDTV with that...
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[20:20] <mkopack> It was an old Sony Trinitron 27"
[20:20] <mkopack> aka: TANK
[20:20] <CuriosTiger> eww.
[20:20] <PaulFertser> mkopack: but you'll probably be severely constrained in the choice of video formats you'll be able to watch using rpi...
[20:20] <CuriosTiger> I'm getting back pains just thinking about carrying that.
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[20:21] <mkopack> Paul: Well, pretty sure everything I've got recorded I have in H.264, so I should be good to go
[20:22] <mkopack> Curios: Yeah, well, there's a reason why the 20" little brother to it is still sitting on the floor in my bedroom upstairs after I replaced it with a 40" Samsung LED/LCD this past July...
[20:23] <CuriosTiger> heh
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[20:23] <PaulFertser> mkopack: i'm used to not trust vendors, e.g. nvidia released some openmax codecs for their tegra-based devices but i haven't heard people being happy with that.
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[20:23] <mkopack> After my final next week, I need to do some serious house cleaning??? Bring a ton of stuff to goodwill to donate/get rid of
[20:24] <mkopack> Well, from what we've been told. H.264 is about ALL that the RPi will support, so I just have to trust that it'll work
[20:24] <mkopack> To get things initially working, I'll just hook it up to the samsung in my bedroom???
[20:24] <mkopack> but that's not a long term viable solution
[20:26] * Forca (~hendricks@209-254-225-82.ip.mcleodusa.net) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[20:29] <zleap> amazon have 8gb sd card for 3.50
[20:29] * jthunder (~jthunder@70.28.245.70) Quit (Quit: jthunder)
[20:30] <mkopack> wow, nice. What class?
[20:30] <zleap> not sure
[20:30] <mkopack> link?
[20:30] <zleap> Class 4 speed performance rating (based on SD 2.00 Specification)
[20:30] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@246-168.dsl.iskon.hr) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[20:30] <mkopack> ok, that'll work
[20:30] <zleap> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sandisk-8GB-Secure-Digital-Card/dp/B000VUVA62/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT11?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2X9L2T7QK5DP5&colid=3QEX4W6B80DW9
[20:31] <zleap> may get one so i can create a disk image , rs are expecting the rasp pi in shortly
[20:31] <mkopack> Yeah, I picked up 3 16GB cards so I can load Debian, Fedora and Arch (or Gentoo) up on and see which I prefer
[20:32] <zleap> ohh
[20:32] <mkopack> Didn't somebody on here say they had a Gentoo Stage -1 already built and ready to go for the RPi?
[20:32] <zleap> not sure
[20:33] <zleap> i take it the fedora remix one has all the programming stuff onit
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[20:33] * PiBot sets mode +v LowValueTarget
[20:33] <zleap> by default
[20:33] <mkopack> I'm kinda hot on the idea (especially for the robotics stuff I want to do) of using Gentoo so I can tweak it to get the max possible performance out of the hardware.
[20:33] <mkopack> It has python???
[20:33] <mkopack> Everything else you can load as needed/desired
[20:33] <mkopack> Through the package managers
[20:33] <zleap> ah, well dfebian should too, but you havce to install it
[20:33] <zleap> as in python, pygame and geany should work fine for most people,
[20:33] <mkopack> I got OpenJDK loaded up on debian no problem
[20:34] <zleap> esp for the books i got here anyway
[20:34] <zleap> free python programming books for games
[20:35] <zleap> i wonder if I can drag the kids away from the wii at the after school club and let em play with this thing
[20:37] <mkopack> the trick will be to show them how easy it is to make something happen??? get them excited about it, and then turn them loose and let them explore and figure things out
[20:37] <zleap> yeah
[20:37] <mkopack> Like, find a cool little python based game??? Let them play it...
[20:37] <zleap> well this book has several so I could write one
[20:37] <mkopack> Then show them how you can change the game by doing a couple little things (mod it)
[20:38] <zleap> or grab it from the book
[20:38] <mkopack> Then say "You guys think you could make it do something else? Or make the game more interesting? show me!"
[20:38] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[20:39] <zleap> well this is an after school club, my supervisor doesn't like gfame controllers with wires exposed so i may not be able to take a board in with exposed parts
[20:40] <zleap> i could actually ask if I can demo in say an IT lesson or something
[20:41] <mkopack> yeah, that might work
[20:41] <zleap> yeah
[20:41] * wej (~j@m2.mullvad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:41] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[20:41] <mkopack> Say "Hey kids, you want to learn how those games you play on the wii are made?"
[20:42] <zleap> i will get one first then see what i can do
[20:42] <mkopack> "And maybe you can make your own then!"
[20:42] <zleap> well i am not leaving pi at the school just show it to people and do a demo
[20:43] * iccanobif (iccanobif@host212-135-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:43] * PiBot sets mode +v iccanobif
[20:43] <mkopack> right...
[20:43] <mkopack> gothya
[20:43] <mkopack> gotchya
[20:44] <zleap> they can get their own i guess too
[20:44] <zleap> with any luck i am setting up a compuer programming club soon, so i can do the same for that
[20:44] <zleap> just stuck with red tape atm,
[20:45] <zleap> this country is held back by red tapel, I was in canada in 2006 needed a police check for a job in a money sorting office (where they sort out atm deposits) we are talking like shedloads of moeny here, that took a few days, here stuff takes months, + references no wonder our economy is crap
[20:46] * spangles (~spangles@host86-138-47-86.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:46] * PiBot sets mode +v spangles
[20:47] * Cemial (~hardcoreB@ip4da2366d.direct-adsl.nl) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[20:48] <zleap> would class 2 work (sd card speed)
[20:49] <zleap> lookingat a 16gb sd card as another plan
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[20:49] * PiBot sets mode +v amphetamine
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> Class speed, and in-OS-use speed vary dramatically
[20:50] <zleap> ok
[20:51] -NickServ- MABot!~MABot@idioticphotos.com has just authenticated as you (DataBot)
[20:52] * amphetamine is now known as AdrianG
[20:55] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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[21:14] * Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc18-reig4-2-0-cust124.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[21:26] * mikey_w (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[21:34] * PiBot sets mode +v skrock
[21:37] * joohoo340 (93b12971@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.177.41.113) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[21:41] * andytuk (~root@jasonf.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:41] * PiBot sets mode +v andytuk
[21:41] <andytuk> Evening
[21:42] <ShiftPlusOne2> ahoy
[21:42] <andytuk> Anyone for a game of Centipede?
[21:43] * NIN101 (~NIN@206.253.166.69) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:43] * PiBot sets mode +v NIN101
[21:43] <ironzorg> andytuk: human centipede ?
[21:43] <andytuk> ha ha - no...
[21:44] <andytuk> Anyone see my forum post about getting the Atari 2600 emulator running?
[21:44] <ShiftPlusOne2> not the forum post, but I saw it retweeted, awesome work
[21:45] <andytuk> over 3000 people have view the pic now
[21:47] * andytuk is off - bye!
[21:47] * andytuk (~root@jasonf.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[21:49] <ShiftPlusOne2> ...the fuu...?
[21:49] <ShiftPlusOne2> "Man behind 'Kony 2012' arrested - for masturbating in public"
[21:49] * flaushy (~nooon@p57900F67.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:49] * PiBot sets mode +v flaushy
[21:50] * lollipopp (~quassel@p3EE2A8E4.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[21:51] * PiBot sets mode +v jthunder
[21:53] * felgru (~felgru@p57BD172F.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:53] * flaushy_ (~nooon@p57900B92.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[21:53] <mkopack> andy; saw it..
[21:53] <mkopack> shift? Who's that?
[21:53] <mkopack> Kony 2012?
[21:57] <ShiftPlusOne2> Kony 2012 is some shady campaign which has been fairly succesfull at going viral... meant to raise awareness of a guerilla group in Uganda to make sure the US military continues to help Uganda capture their leader Joseph Kony. That's roughly it in a nutshell.
[21:58] <GabrialDestruir> WHAT THAT? GOT PI?!?
[21:58] <mkopack> oh that yeah
[21:59] <mkopack> saw it on the news the other night??? I'm sorry but the guy they interviewed who did the video just seemed really??? um??? "flamboyant" shall we say??? And from what the news report said, they're making a stink out of something that hasn't been problem in the region in over a decade.
[22:00] <mkopack> The ugandan gov even said "WTF are you talking about? He hasn't been an issue for us in years!"
[22:00] <Henchman21> angalina jolie says to invade africa to get kony so i guess thats what we should do! what angalina jollie and the UN says not the congress!
[22:01] <RITRedbeard> She's attractive.
[22:01] * MooseEh (~MooseEh@96.49.107.205) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:01] <RITRedbeard> The instinctive side of me wants to invade Africa to get this Kony guy or whomever to impress said one Angalina Jolie.
[22:02] * Cracknel (~cracknel@unaffiliated/cracknel) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:02] <Henchman21> thats a great reason
[22:02] <RITRedbeard> The logical side of me thinks that you can't win asymmetrical wars given current Western doctrine and my experience with it (I am somewhat of a war/histroy buff)
[22:02] <Henchman21> she must be right she has brown babies
[22:02] <RITRedbeard> The lazy side of me doesn't care about Kony or Africa or some woman.
[22:04] <Henchman21> point is its war propaganda
[22:04] <Henchman21> invade/kill/attack (for the children)
[22:05] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-227-85.dsl.scarlet.be) Quit (Quit: I'm gone, bye bye)
[22:05] <ShiftPlusOne2> well all of that and the fact that the Ugandan president did pretty much all the same things Kony did and USA is very friendly towards him... so this sudden overnight attention on Kony is a little suspicious to me.
[22:05] <Henchman21> exactly
[22:07] * mike_ (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:07] * PiBot sets mode +v mike_
[22:07] <Henchman21> egg sack lee
[22:07] <lee> what?
[22:07] <Henchman21> heh
[22:07] * mike_ is now known as Guest28072
[22:07] <ShiftPlusOne2> heh
[22:08] <mkopack> It's called, some twit activist heard about something bad happening and got a bug up his ass to make a movie
[22:08] <mkopack> and start a foundation or charity "to bring attention to the problem" when in reality it's called "I don't want to get a real job"
[22:08] <Henchman21> i want to go live in a jungle away from raspberry pi's
[22:11] <ShiftPlusOne2> videos go viral all the time, but this was millions of views overnight... and political videos like that don't normally get that much attention. It's at 80 million views on youtube right now.
[22:12] * IT_Sean (~IT@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has left #raspberrypi
[22:13] <Henchman21> alex jones said something about it so i watched it 8D
[22:14] * unreal-dude (~pcnate@tripwire.is-very-evil.org) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[22:14] <ShiftPlusOne2> why the hell do you listen to AJ? O_o
[22:16] <Henchman21> :P
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[22:32] <GabrialDestruir> I need a way to limit my Steam downloads.... or at least shape them so other things get priority .-.
[22:33] * dnstbr (~dnstbr@rrcs-97-77-70-128.sw.biz.rr.com) Quit ()
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[22:33] * PiBot sets mode +v Calyp
[22:33] <ShiftPlusOne2> QoS
[22:34] * Nemo7 (nemo@nemo.org.org) Quit (Quit: you're entering a wolrd of pain)
[22:34] <GabrialDestruir> Bah, everytime I try to setup QoS on my router it has issues .-.
[22:35] <ShiftPlusOne2> Do you understand QoS? It's not something you can guess values for.
[22:36] <GabrialDestruir> Yes I understand it, and I've followed various guides to set it up on my router, and on the previous router, QoS would kill it and lately the nets been so unstable it doesn't matter
[22:36] * Caly_ (~Calyp@unaffiliated/caly) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[22:37] <ShiftPlusOne2> hm =/
[22:40] <GabrialDestruir> I mean QoS is all fine and dandy if it could automatically test the current net speed and base it off that.... but as it is it doesn't work well when I tell it I'm suppose to have about 7Mb/s and suddenly my entire connection drops to 1Mb/s
[22:42] <ShiftPlusOne2> fair enough... I am sure there's a good answer to your original question (I don't know it), but I think the most practical thing to do is to you know... pause it and then dl everything you need at night.
[22:43] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[22:43] <ShiftPlusOne2> ...but if you have a lot of games then there's constantly something being updated =/
[22:43] * lars_t_h (~lars_t_h@002128093243.mbb.telenor.dk) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:43] <GabrialDestruir> Yea....
[22:44] <GabrialDestruir> and for some reason steam has yet to put a scheduler or a limiter or anything in their client
[22:45] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:45] * PiBot sets mode +v neouf
[22:45] <ShiftPlusOne2> I remember I was using something called net limiter
[22:45] <ShiftPlusOne2> which worked great on windows
[22:45] <ShiftPlusOne2> http://www.netlimiter.com/
[22:45] * rikai (~rikai@unaffiliated/rikai) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:46] <ShiftPlusOne2> and since you're talking about steam, I just realised you must be using windows and net limiter might be exactly what you're after.
[22:46] * jthunder (~jthunder@70.28.245.70) Quit (Quit: jthunder)
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[22:47] * PiBot sets mode +v rikai
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[22:55] <Thorn_> what's a good benchmark/stress test for production servers?
[22:55] <Thorn_> (debian)
[22:55] <_av500_> r.pi irc :)
[22:55] <Thorn_> all round
[22:55] <_av500_> or rather, r-pi preorders :)
[22:55] <Thorn_> heh
[22:56] <mkopack> lol
[22:56] <mkopack> Or iPad3 ordes
[22:56] <mkopack> orders
[22:56] <_av500_> if it passes the test, sell it to RS and Farnell
[22:56] <Thorn_> need something that can really kill cpu, io and test high threads
[22:57] <ShiftPlusOne2> install windows </troll>
[22:57] <Thorn_> we have a dedi that all of a sudden wont run mc anymore
[22:57] <mkopack> Ok, I CAN NOT believe that JamesH posted something like this in the forums??? Is he TRYING to stir up a shit-storm of complaining??? I think a lot of the early orders may have been lost in the web server issues, so later orders had a chance of getting in the first batch."
[22:57] <Thorn_> make -j64 is fine, but the second minecraft is ran (even on an empty world with standard server jar) the whole machine dies, makes it impossible to even ssh in - and this is on an 8core xeon
[22:58] <ShiftPlusOne2> Thorn_, vanilla or bukkit? sounds more like a faulty plugin than anything else
[22:58] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne2: we fell back to vanilla to test
[22:59] <Thorn_> it's very odd
[22:59] <ShiftPlusOne2> Thorn_, official oracle jre?
[22:59] <Thorn_> and htop doesnt show anything remarkable happening, the machine just... dies
[22:59] <mkopack> http://www.element14.com/community/events/3282
[22:59] * oldtopman (~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:59] * PiBot sets mode +v oldtopman
[22:59] <mkopack> Eben shows us all how to set up and get our pi's running and start programming on them
[22:59] <Thorn_> ShiftPlusOne2: yup
[23:00] * genbattle (~quassel@219-89-38-31.dialup.xtra.co.nz) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:00] * PiBot sets mode +v genbattle
[23:00] <mkopack> How many of us will actually HAVE RPi's by then? NONE.. probably??? lol
[23:01] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[23:01] <piofcube> Thorn_:It isn't converting your map for the update?
[23:01] <ShiftPlusOne2> mkopack, what did jamesh actually post?
[23:01] <Thorn_> piofcube: nope, we can rm the world or load a recent one - it's odd
[23:01] <lennard> I had a mail from farnell! :)
[23:01] <Thorn_> plus, regardless of this, there is *no way* minecraft can kill a server like that - you'd need a forkbomb
[23:01] <mkopack> It was in reply to one of the threads about emails saying that getting in the first batch deliveries??? he posted:
[23:01] <mkopack> "I think a lot of the early orders may have been lost in the web server issues, so later orders had a chance of getting in the first batch."
[23:02] <ShiftPlusOne2> Thorn_, I am stumped
[23:02] <Thorn_> yeah, we are too :<
[23:02] * NIN101 is now known as NIN101|afk
[23:02] <Thorn_> and i dont want to reboot and lose 200 days of uptime
[23:02] <ShiftPlusOne2> no physical access to the machine?
[23:02] <piofcube> Thorn_ 64 or 32 bit java?
[23:02] * GabrialDestruir (~GabrialDe@pool-71-160-42-116.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:02] * PiBot sets mode +v GabrialDestruir
[23:02] <Thorn_> but it's odd that mc pushes the load right up to 19 on an 8 core machine
[23:02] <_av500_> Thorn_: save the uptime to a file
[23:02] <Thorn_> it's never been above erm... 0.5 before
[23:02] <Thorn_> piofcube: 64
[23:03] <mkopack> I PM'ed him and asked "Are you INSANE posting something like that? You're going to unleash a S-storm of pissed off hordes crying foul when they find out that the order they placed at 0600 didn't go through and somebody who ordered at 0800 is getting their bored first..."
[23:03] <lennard> Thorn_: also, uptime is lame :P
[23:03] * datagutt (~datagutt@80.202.130.140) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:03] * PiBot sets mode +v datagutt
[23:03] * datagutt (~datagutt@80.202.130.140) Quit (Changing host)
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[23:03] * PiBot sets mode +v datagutt
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[23:03] * PiBot sets mode +v earbyb
[23:04] <ShiftPlusOne2> mkopack, is that RS orders?
[23:05] <tntexplosivesltd> mkopack: *board
[23:05] <tntexplosivesltd> XD
[23:06] <mkopack> http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/congratulations-first-batch-from-farnell
[23:06] <mkopack> That thread
[23:06] <mkopack> (sorry, typo)
[23:07] <tntexplosivesltd> ={
[23:07] <tntexplosivesltd> * =P
[23:08] * UnderSampled1 (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-178.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:08] * PiBot sets mode +v UnderSampled1
[23:08] * earbyb (~android@82.132.213.76) Quit (Client Quit)
[23:08] * UnderSampled (~UnderSamp@cpe-174-097-224-178.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[23:08] <ShiftPlusOne2> how can farnell lose orders? they are all time stamped... people would notice if they order time stamp was wrong ... and if the time stamp is right, why wouldn't farnell know which orders were first O_o
[23:08] <mkopack> Who the F knows...
[23:09] <mkopack> That's why I was REALLY surprised when I saw the posting???
[23:09] <tntexplosivesltd> the orders would be lost if they didn't make it through to farnell
[23:09] <mkopack> Considering he's an Admin, people assume he has inside info on the RPF and stating something like that is going to inflame folks
[23:09] <piofcube> Yeah... "An official source says..." :-(
[23:10] <tntexplosivesltd> there could have been a hiccup and the site said it it went through fine, but there could be no record of it
[23:10] <tntexplosivesltd> it all depends on how their system works
[23:10] <GabrialDestruir> Net limiter appears too limited for what I want.... unless I'm seriously missing something.
[23:11] <_av500_> maybe it's net limitred
[23:11] <mkopack> Anyhow, it's quitting time.. and considering El-Presidente is in town today, I can't wait to see what a mess Friday evening traffic is going to be....
[23:11] <mkopack> take care gang!
[23:11] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-242-96-108.pools.spcsdns.net) Quit (Quit: mkopack)
[23:11] <ShiftPlusOne2> GabrialDestruir, maybe you've got some limited trial version... I remember it being quite capable.
[23:14] * Martix (~martix@134.89.broadband12.iol.cz) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[23:15] <GabrialDestruir> idk, from what I'm seeing, I can limit the connects.... but it's by a set value, so it suffers the same issues QoS does
[23:16] * Cromulent (~Cromulent@cpc18-reig4-2-0-cust124.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[23:20] * ShiftPlusOne2 (~shift@unaffiliated/shiftplusone) Quit (Quit: 'night)
[23:30] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:31] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:31] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[23:35] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8-dev)
[23:36] * curahack (~curahack@sub-190-88-93ip28.rev.onenet.an) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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[23:50] * PiBot sets mode +v Calyp
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[23:57] * spangles (~spangles@host86-138-47-86.range86-138.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
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[23:59] * GabrialDestruir (~GabrialDe@pool-71-160-42-116.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)

These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.