#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2012-04-01

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:02] * j11c (~j11c@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[0:11] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[0:15] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:15] * PiBot sets mode +v mcinerney
[0:19] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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[0:21] * PiBot sets mode +v mcinerney
[0:24] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:24] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[0:24] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) has left #raspberrypi
[0:25] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:25] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[0:25] <mkopack> Sup gAng?
[0:25] <markus> Hola mkopack
[0:26] <mkopack> No Gnews is good Gnews. With Gary Gnu
[0:26] <markus> I M T IRED!
[0:27] <mkopack> So am I. Didn't sleep well last night.
[0:27] <markus> no me neither.
[0:27] <markus> you know what
[0:27] <markus> according to the raspi folks, "raspberry pi" shouldn't be used as a noun
[0:28] <markus> so the topic is no good?
[0:28] <mkopack> Lol
[0:28] <markus> because they think we care :)
[0:29] <mkopack> Thinking of going to the Indycar race tomorrow. But have toget up real early to drive there
[0:30] * Mavy is now known as Mavy-bnc
[0:30] <markus> mkopack: are you an usanian?
[0:30] <markus> *a
[0:31] <mkopack> Yup. Race is just outside Birmingham Alabama tomorrow. Im in Atlanta ga. About 3 hr drive away.
[0:31] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[0:32] <markus> i've been to florida once
[0:33] <markus> i can't remember where it was.
[0:33] <markus> i think it was the capital of spongebob squarepants
[0:34] * jzaw_pl (~jzaw@ Quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
[0:35] <markus> Orlando
[0:36] <markus> According to the 2010 US Census, the city had a population of 238,300, making Orlando the 79th largest city in the United States.
[0:36] <markus> Isn't that kind of small for being the 79th largest?
[0:37] * DaMummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[0:37] <markus> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Orlando_downtown_2011.jpg it doesn't look so nice from above
[0:39] <CuriosTiger> markus: Most cities look like concrete jungles. I think all the lakes actually makes it look nicer than average.
[0:40] * mikos (~wolverine@5ac889ab.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:40] * PiBot sets mode +v mikos
[0:43] * Da|Mummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:43] * PiBot sets mode +v Da|Mummy
[0:43] * wtpayne (~textual@rrcs-184-75-39-118.nyc.biz.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:43] * PiBot sets mode +v wtpayne
[0:44] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[0:44] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:44] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[0:46] <piless> hmm
[0:46] * wtpayne (~textual@rrcs-184-75-39-118.nyc.biz.rr.com) has left #raspberrypi
[0:47] * Triamis (~Mikoto@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[0:47] * farmboy (~quassel@cpc15-cmbg14-2-0-cust146.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[0:47] * mrcan_ (~mrcan@unaffiliated/mrcan) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[0:50] * mikos (~wolverine@5ac889ab.bb.sky.com) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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[0:51] * PiBot sets mode +v erkin
[0:51] <erkin> Is the store still down?
[0:53] <mkopack> RPi store? Why ? Nothing in it. You buy the RPi from RS or Farnell
[0:53] <piless> the store?
[0:54] <piless> maybe they're backing up, today is national backup day after all.
[0:54] <steve_rox> haha?
[0:54] <steve_rox> really?
[0:54] <piless> yes
[0:54] <mkopack> National backup day? Yup
[0:55] <steve_rox> never herd of it untill now
[0:55] <steve_rox> im gonna need a shit load of disks to backup all my stuff
[0:55] <piless> steve_rox: http://www.worldbackupday.com/
[0:55] <steve_rox> gimme disks:-P
[0:56] <mkopack> Blu ray backup
[0:56] <piless> nobody uses discs to backup nowadays, you never heard of disc rot?
[0:56] <mkopack> Real men use tape!
[0:57] <ShiftPlusOne> Meh... just use an external HD =/
[0:57] <steve_rox> yeah im aware of the disk rott
[0:57] <steve_rox> i ment platter magnetic disks
[0:58] <ShiftPlusOne> wow... when you scroll the world backup day website, the little spinny thing on the left spins.
[0:58] <ShiftPlusOne> the future is now, I tells ya!
[0:58] <steve_rox> and hdd's are too expensive now how we expected to be able to backup anything
[0:59] <Da|Mummy> asian slave children
[1:00] <piless> the prices did go up after the thai flooding in october
[1:01] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[1:02] <steve_rox> yups
[1:02] <steve_rox> right now im getting by on old hdd's some with warnings on them
[1:03] <Da|Mummy> a partition on my 2tb external is going bad :{
[1:03] <hamitron> :/
[1:03] <steve_rox> the smart report?
[1:03] <Da|Mummy> bad sectors
[1:03] <steve_rox> so yeah then
[1:03] * stevepdp (~stevepdp@fsf/member/stevepdp) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[1:04] <hamitron> prices have come down a lot since the increase
[1:04] <steve_rox> fucking hate hdd's
[1:05] <steve_rox> ticking time bombs of failure
[1:05] <hamitron> I still don't trust SSD
[1:06] <steve_rox> not really trustworthy
[1:06] <SpeedEvil> Backup.
[1:06] <SpeedEvil> Lots.
[1:06] <SpeedEvil> SMART is a lie.
[1:06] <piless> steve_rox: that statement is so ridiculously misinformed
[1:06] <SpeedEvil> A large fraction of the time, there is no effective warning
[1:06] <steve_rox> i lost a 16gb ssd without any warning
[1:07] <piofcube> SMART was invented by Compaq right? So that figures LOL
[1:07] * akaSoldats (UPP@unaffiliated/akasoldats) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:07] <steve_rox> windows went nuts
[1:07] * PiBot sets mode +v akaSoldats
[1:07] <zgreg> SMART can be a good indication for a disk failure, though
[1:07] <hamitron> windows? :-o
[1:07] <steve_rox> :-P
[1:07] <hamitron> you geek cred just hit an all time low
[1:07] <hamitron> ;)
[1:07] <hamitron> your*
[1:08] <piless> windows is a must if you like games
[1:08] <steve_rox> meh :-P
[1:08] <steve_rox> least i dont have a iphone ;-)
[1:08] <steve_rox> yeah i run games on it
[1:08] <piless> the iphone is pretty good at what it does
[1:08] <piless> and that's coming from an android user
[1:09] <piofcube> iphone should be great at what it does considering the price... but yeah.. they're okay but I won't get one unless I start developing for it
[1:09] <hamitron> yeh I have windows for games too
[1:09] <piless> some people just love to hate on whatever's popular, often without even trying it for themselves
[1:09] <hamitron> and games for windows
[1:09] <hamitron> ;/
[1:09] * mikos (~mikos@188-223-31-58.zone14.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:09] * PiBot sets mode +v mikos
[1:09] <piless> hamitron: steeeeeeeeeaaam
[1:09] <steve_rox> steam indeed
[1:10] <steve_rox> using that now
[1:10] <hamitron> outta my ears!
[1:10] <hamitron> but yeh, and origin
[1:10] <hamitron> :/
[1:10] <piless> steam has to be best drm ever.
[1:10] <piofcube> steam chat is now out for droid
[1:10] <steve_rox> origin can bugger off
[1:10] <steve_rox> evil EA game company
[1:10] <hamitron> I hate all forms of online DRM tbh
[1:10] <hamitron> heck, I prefered the root kits
[1:10] <hamitron> ;)
[1:11] <piless> piofcube: steam chat without the games isn't really that appealing to me. Most people only have me on their list to invite to l4d games or w/e
[1:11] <piofcube> I don't mind DRM if it just validates on install and say every 50th time you start the game
[1:11] <hamitron> least then I don't get a games company turning off my games when they choose
[1:11] <steve_rox> yea the steam chat is nice
[1:11] <piless> piofcube: steam's offline mode isn't perfect, but it's still there
[1:11] <steve_rox> valve have got a bit lazy with maintaining their source game engine tho
[1:12] <piless> steve_rox: how?
[1:12] <steve_rox> i play in a small community on there in a game called empires
[1:12] <piofcube> piless: I like steam... Much better than many of the other digidownload stores
[1:12] <hamitron> tbh, steam has burnt me more than EA so far :/
[1:12] <steve_rox> cos they fucked up all our players keep getting invalid steam ticket id bullshit
[1:12] <steve_rox> most of em are too stupid to figure the fix too
[1:13] <piless> steam is really shit on the support end. At least origin has people in india you can talk to.
[1:13] <steve_rox> haha
[1:14] <hamitron> I can't be bothered to download games
[1:14] <hamitron> can keep them
[1:14] <hamitron> ;/
[1:14] <steve_rox> they do tend to eat the hdd a lot
[1:14] <hamitron> takes ages to download
[1:15] <hamitron> also cripples download limits
[1:15] <piless> most of the filesize is just high-def textures though
[1:15] <piless> you can't really get around that
[1:15] <steve_rox> yea all eye candy these days
[1:15] <hamitron> I do, I buy it on dvd ;)
[1:15] <piless> steve_rox: NO
[1:15] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[1:16] <steve_rox> kinda miss being able to buy phyiscal copys of games
[1:16] <piless> steve_rox: are you being serious?!
[1:16] <hamitron> you still can if you want with more games
[1:16] <hamitron> most*
[1:16] <piless> steve_rox: Of course you can still by retail copies
[1:16] <hamitron> I miss the fact they often don't provide a printed manual :/
[1:16] * erkin (~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin) has left #raspberrypi
[1:17] <IT_Sean> There is something satisfying in walking into a game store with cash, and walking out with a game. The anticipation of playing it as you drive home from the shop is part of the pleasure of new game purchasing.
[1:17] <hamitron> gives ya something to read while relieving yourself ;)
[1:17] <piless> hamitron: Noone ever read the manuals anyway, so it makes more sense to include the tutorial in-game.
[1:18] <hamitron> oh in game is ok for some games
[1:18] <steve_rox> hmm more better to have something phyiscal to show for the great ammount of money ya just spent than just 10gb etc
[1:18] <piless> steve_rox:Err, are you going to stick it on your mantlepiece?
[1:18] <steve_rox> yes
[1:18] <piless> That's a tad weird.
[1:18] <piofcube> piless: Uneven table perhaps ;-)
[1:18] <steve_rox> it will please me :-P
[1:19] <hamitron> I bought Cliffs of Dover recently, limited edition.... was cheaper than std version on steam
[1:19] <hamitron> included a cloth map!
[1:19] <hamitron> :D
[1:19] <hamitron> spitfire manual
[1:19] <hamitron> erm, and a game manual
[1:19] <piofcube> maps you can pin on the wall LOL
[1:20] <steve_rox> yay
[1:20] <hamitron> I'm not sticking pins through a cloth map :/
[1:20] * Space_Man (~space_man@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[1:20] <steve_rox> i rember gta1 you could get this massive map for it :-P
[1:20] <piless> hamitron: In more recent years, instead of reducing retail prices to compete with online distrobution, the publishers just force higher prices on steam and the likes
[1:20] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:20] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[1:20] <hamitron> prices for games haven't gone up with inflation though
[1:21] <hamitron> choc bars and beer have gone up more
[1:21] <hamitron> :/
[1:21] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
[1:21] <piofcube> they shouldn't, they were always relatively high anyway
[1:21] <hamitron> I'd pay 50% more for a game, with no DRM and online activation
[1:21] <hamitron> :)
[1:22] <hamitron> but now we just rent them for 3 years when we buy them
[1:22] <hamitron> :/
[1:22] <piofcube> As longs as DRM doesn't get in the way of using the software I don't mind. For games that need an online account, there's shouldn't be additional DRM IMHO
[1:23] <steve_rox> some games are geting real evil with drm
[1:23] <hamitron> well, DRM is ok while it works
[1:23] <steve_rox> new simcity game demands constant internet access
[1:23] <steve_rox> disconnecton means game terminates
[1:23] <steve_rox> brb
[1:24] <SpeedEvil> And company going out of buisness or not wanting you to run the old game anymore
[1:24] <hamitron> same as silent hunter 5..... and it doesn't even use in game data online
[1:24] <hamitron> SpeedEvil, that is my big worry
[1:24] <SpeedEvil> Part of the reason 'apps' piss me off.
[1:24] <des2> I backup to paper tape. I like being able to see the 1's and 0's.
[1:24] * des2 (~des2@pool-71-190-36-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net) has left #raspberrypi
[1:24] <SpeedEvil> You can never ever actually purchase.
[1:24] <hamitron> also, will EA let me play FIFA 12, when they want me to buy FIFA 17?
[1:25] * des2 (~des2@pool-71-190-36-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:25] * PiBot sets mode +v des2
[1:25] <hamitron> and the C&C series of games :/
[1:25] <des2> By the time next year's backup day comes around my backup will be finished.
[1:25] * warddr (~warddr@Wikipedia/Warddr) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:25] * PiBot sets mode +v warddr
[1:26] <hamitron> I still love the original C&C games, but if they had had online activation..... no play
[1:27] <hamitron> I guess I am a collector though, so maybe have slightly different views to the majority :)
[1:28] <hamitron> when Steam has to drop support for XP, it will be interesting
[1:28] <piless> des2: Wasn't there a story from a couple of years back about a guy invented a super-effection paper-based storage system that printed symbols or something
[1:29] * mkopack (~mkopack@68-118-113-66.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com) Quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
[1:30] <danieldaniel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rznYifPHxDg
[1:30] <danieldaniel> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=ll
[1:30] <danieldaniel> click on quest button
[1:30] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca5627.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[1:32] <piless> danieldaniel: Yes, they also did the street view
[1:32] * felgru_ (~felgru@p57BD0F9D.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[1:32] <danieldaniel> looking at my house right now
[1:32] <danieldaniel> LOL
[1:32] * neverous (~neverous@octopus-v530.awf.wroc.pl) Quit (Quit: gone!)
[1:32] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@232-223.dsl.iskon.hr) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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[1:35] * Matttt (~Matthew@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[1:37] * Syliss (~Syliss@ Quit (Quit: Syliss)
[1:43] * cypher707 (cypher707@89-181-205-224.net.novis.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
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[1:52] * blemmm (~em@ Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[1:54] * Axman6 (~Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[1:54] * mikey_w (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[1:54] * Guest57978 (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[1:55] <mpthompson> Anyone care to discuss Linux distributions for the RPi? I'm working on a Debian hard float port for it, but I still wonder a bit if the effort is worth it.
[1:59] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[1:59] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:59] * PiBot sets mode +v mcinerney
[1:59] <piless> mpthompson: there is going to be only one linux distribution, as the Raspberry Pi has a locked bootloader.
[1:59] * mikey_w (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:59] * PiBot sets mode +v mikey_w
[2:00] * mike_ (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:00] * PiBot sets mode +v mike_
[2:00] * mike_ is now known as Guest31042
[2:00] <mpthompson> The GPU bootloader should boot pretty much anything. Any distribution will just have to include the GPU bootloader blob.
[2:01] <piless> Only if it's signed.
[2:02] <mpthompson> Hmm. I haven't heard anything about that. Well, the blob needs to be signed, but the blob relinquishes control to an arbitrary executable which in most cases is the Linux kernel. I don't think the kernel itself needs to be signed.
[2:02] <ShiftPlusOne> piless, it can boot any kernel... the kernel doesn't need to be signed, so you can execute whatever code you want there. Just the blog needs to be signed (afaik)
[2:03] * victhor__ (~victhor@ Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[2:03] <piless> nah,you're both wrong
[2:03] <mpthompson> For instance, it may be useful to have the RPi initially boot u-boot which functions as a secondary bootloader. I haven't heard anyone attempting that, but it might be useful for certain cases.
[2:04] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[2:04] <mpthompson> piless, do you have a link on that? It would be a surprise to me and is rather important to my efforts if it turned out to be true.
[2:04] <piless> email liz, she'll back me up
[2:05] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:05] * PiBot sets mode +v mcinerney
[2:05] <jamesglanville> piless: only one distro? why is there fedora/debian etc on the main page then? :s
[2:06] <mpthompson> OK, I'll make sure to do that, but it still doesn't sound right to me. I'm willing to be made wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence of what you are saying.
[2:06] <piless> that's outdated information
[2:06] <piless> they hadn't picked the official distro by then
[2:06] <hamitron> have they now?
[2:06] <jamesglanville> piless: where are you getting this?
[2:07] <piless> I was as surprised as you. But it's legit.
[2:07] <mpthompson> Piless, I'll put this a politely as I can, but I believe you are spreading FUD here. However, I'll verify just in case.
[2:07] * Guest57978 (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:07] * PiBot sets mode +v Guest57978
[2:08] <hamitron> at least it provides another challenge to some youngster ;)
[2:09] <mpthompson> The ArchLinux guys just announced their port a week or so ago and it was on the main page of the RPi site. Don't think they would be doing that if there was "an official distribution" for the Pi.
[2:09] <jamesglanville> even if the kernel was signed, couldn't you load a kernel module to jump to a proper bootloader then?
[2:09] <jamesglanville> though i'm dubious as to whether the rpi foundation is going to piss everyone off /again/
[2:10] <mpthompson> The Foundation itself will be concentrating on Fedora, but that is because of the special relationship with the folks doing the port and that is to limit their support efforts as they move to creating education software.
[2:11] <mpthompson> I haven't heard one thing about using a DRM approach to limiting what software runs on the Pi.
[2:11] <mpthompson> Doesn't make sense.
[2:11] <hamitron> makes sense to have 1 official distro tbh
[2:11] <hamitron> but ideally not lock it ofc
[2:11] <hamitron> although, even if there is 1 kernel..... can use another root fs
[2:12] <jamesglanville> if the kernel is locked, it won't last any time at all I reckon
[2:13] <hamitron> there'd also be no point in releasing all the code for the kernel
[2:13] <hamitron> ??
[2:13] <mpthompson> If the Pi were to be locked by DRM beyond the initial blob that programs the GPU (which everyone knows about) that would be a HUGE backfire by the RPi foundation. I'm doing searches and not finding anything that supports this.
[2:13] <jamesglanville> nobody has the resources of apple or the monetary worries of the carriers, and iphones were broken in no time
[2:13] <hamitron> jamesglanville, exactly
[2:14] <hamitron> and this device is attracting near 100% geeks
[2:14] <hamitron> an army of people wanting to hack
[2:14] <piless> hamitron: incorrect, most of the marketing pitches it as an htpc
[2:14] <hamitron> oh yeh, forgot about that crowd
[2:14] <hamitron> :/
[2:15] <jamesglanville> even htpc are sold to a much higher proportion of geeks than normal computers, and 1% of hundreds of thousands who like hacking is a lot still
[2:15] <hamitron> if it is locked, I will buy one just to hack it
[2:15] <hamitron> I wasn't gonna bother
[2:15] <hamitron> ;)
[2:16] <mpthompson> This is just FUD. I'll email Liz, but DRM would be a nail in the heart of the RPi. Won't happen. Anyway, are most people going to be using the Fedora distribution, or will alternatives be considered.
[2:16] * iMatttt (~imatttt@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[2:16] <hamitron> I want linuxfromscratch
[2:16] <jamesglanville> gentoo > LFS
[2:16] <hamitron> no :/
[2:16] <piless> to be fair, you aren't their key demographic, it's an educational tool
[2:17] <jamesglanville> gentoo is almost as slim, and sooo much easier
[2:17] <hamitron> well, CLFS is actually my intention
[2:17] <jamesglanville> when I tried lfs I just ended up trying to copy portage
[2:17] <hamitron> no way I'd compile stuff ON the pi
[2:17] <mpthompson> Is gentoo working on a port? I don't see it on the list of known ports?
[2:18] <jamesglanville> I'm sure I saw a stage3 on the forums
[2:18] * DaMummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:18] * PiBot sets mode +v DaMummy
[2:18] <jamesglanville> and that's all you need, just get something booting with portage, gcc, and emerge -avuND the whole thing
[2:18] <mpthompson> I've been compiling 100's of packages for the Pi and I can safely say, the distributions for the Pi will NOT be compiled on the Pi.
[2:18] <ukscone> mpthompson: i wouldn't bother emailing Liz. nothing will be locked down except te gpu blob and that's only because noone but broadcom know the language it's written in or have compileers for it
[2:19] <mpthompson> ukscone, I figure as much.
[2:19] <ukscone> and of course it's a broadcom secret
[2:19] <hamitron> mpthompson, so surely pointless having gentoo on the r-pi?
[2:20] <ukscone> but we have source for everything but the the blob and we have the api for that
[2:20] <mpthompson> Actually, I don't have an opinion one way or the other about gentoo? Is it a distriubtion that relies on the end system to do the compilations? If so, that will be very problematic.
[2:20] <hamitron> can other OS use that blob also?
[2:21] <des2> gentoo is more about only compiling the parts you really need.
[2:21] <ukscone> hamitron: yes but a qualified yes
[2:21] <mpthompson> As far as I know, the blob will load an ARM object file from a known file location. That object file could be anything, but in most cases will be the linux kernel. Pretty simple.
[2:22] <ukscone> hamitron: riscos is being ported for a start but they had a elping hand in that the porter is a broadcom employee but info will be out there in the end
[2:22] * Da|Mummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[2:22] <hamitron> so no reason a youngster couldn't write a basic OS to boot on the r-pi?
[2:22] <hamitron> a very clever one maybe ;)
[2:23] <ukscone> hamitron: no reason at all -- they might not get accelleration but it'll boot
[2:23] <ukscone> and accelleration will be doable eventually
[2:23] <mpthompson> The RPi will be great for someone wanting to try to understand a simpler OS. Minix might be a good port, but I don't think they support ARM.
[2:23] <ukscone> hamitron: framebuffer will work
[2:23] <hamitron> a few people are working on ARM support for minix atm
[2:23] <hamitron> not sure how far they've got
[2:24] <hamitron> must admit, that interests me also
[2:24] <mpthompson> Given the cost of the devices, the Pi would also be good to learn about clustering. It won't be much for actual use, but for learning, buying 4 of them to test clusting is almost a no-brainer.
[2:24] * eyveer (~eyveer@ip-37-85.zax.pl) Quit ()
[2:24] <hamitron> although, I'd want to work on an older version of minix
[2:25] <hamitron> mpthompson, yeh, I used a bunch of VIA C3
[2:25] <hamitron> :)
[2:25] <hamitron> waste of time that was \o/
[2:26] <mpthompson> There are RTOS even simpler than Minix that would likely run on the Pi, but then they have their own complications.
[2:26] <hamitron> best thing about minix, it is well documented
[2:26] <mpthompson> My wife is calling me, but it's been nice chatting. I'm not too worried about a DRM'd kernel. I don't see it happening.
[2:27] <hamitron> laters :)
[2:27] <des2> Yeah not happening.
[2:27] <des2> Just blobs.
[2:27] <mpthompson> Actually, I'm not worried at all.
[2:27] * mpthompson (32832751@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has left #raspberrypi
[2:28] <hamitron> my biggest worry.... pizza I ordered is late
[2:28] <hamitron> :/
[2:28] <des2> You need a 3-D printing oven.
[2:29] * crackm_ (~chatzilla@brln-4db94c9b.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:29] * PiBot sets mode +v crackm_
[2:29] <hamitron> I should have walked to the pub to collect it myself
[2:29] <steve_rox> maybe delivery guy nabbed it and is porking it
[2:29] <hamitron> I know where he lives
[2:29] <hamitron> ;/
[2:29] * hamitron growls
[2:29] * crackm (~chatzilla@brln-4db849fb.pool.mediaWays.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[2:30] * crackm_ is now known as crackm
[2:30] * NIN101 (~NIN@ Quit (Quit: NIN101)
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[2:31] * gregrob (~Greg@bas1-brampton13-1279592007.dsl.bell.ca) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[2:35] * PiBot sets mode +v GabrialDestruir
[2:38] <GabrialDestruir> I hate how annoying PHP can be sometimes.-.
[2:44] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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[2:56] * PiBot sets mode +v passstab
[3:00] * MrWatson (~MrW@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[3:09] * warddr (~warddr@ Quit (Changing host)
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[4:10] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Quit: The real world is just a crappy game... The ideal world can only be found within a game. Such was my believe. But if an ideal can be found within a crappy game, there may be an ideal route in the real world... for me to discover)
[4:12] <des2> So where' the pizza ?
[4:12] <GabrialDestruir> With the Pi?
[4:12] <GabrialDestruir> Have Pis started actually arriving yetT?
[4:12] <piless> the pizza = the pi, it's a metaphor for the expectations, the disappointment. It's never coming.
[4:14] <GabrialDestruir> Mmm Taste that VaporWare!
[4:14] * warddr (~warddr@Wikipedia/Warddr) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[4:15] * DaMummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:15] * PiBot sets mode +v DaMummy
[4:15] <des2> I could have sworn I saw a pallet of pis.
[4:15] <GabrialDestruir> lawl xD
[4:16] <GabrialDestruir> "No one has lost their place in line" yet people supposedly lost their places in the first week.
[4:16] <piless> GabrialDestruir: Who lost their places?
[4:17] <passstab> after you all give up i'll be the first to get one!!!
[4:17] * Da|Mummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: No route to host)
[4:17] <DaMummy> people lost sand in their vaginas
[4:17] <passstab> :D
[4:17] <GabrialDestruir> Well if you were to believe some of the dates thrown around here, there were people who ordered a couple hours after and got April dates
[4:17] <GabrialDestruir> while others ordered several hours later and got march dates
[4:17] <GabrialDestruir> from the same sites
[4:18] <DaMummy> meanwhile, everyone getting one in october
[4:18] <piless> GabrialDestruir: Usually these dates are complete guesses and worst case scenarios.
[4:19] <Henchman21> mine says april first... hmmmm
[4:20] <GabrialDestruir> Mine originally said April 16th.... and I haven't gotten a single update since
[4:20] <piless> Henchman21: Must have been april fools
[4:20] <Henchman21> yeah no update emails here
[4:20] <piless> GabrialDestruir: This isn't Farnell's customer support page.
[4:21] <Henchman21> like price/date and so forth
[4:21] <GabrialDestruir> No it isn't.
[4:21] <GabrialDestruir> Nor do you see me demanding someone fix it.
[4:21] <piless> Just lot's of circlejerking, all day.. everyday
[4:21] <Henchman21> yea i didnt send any emails/phone calls pestering them for more info than what i saw on the page
[4:22] <DaMummy> should put a cookie in the middle, whoever finishes last, has to eat cookie
[4:22] <Henchman21> that probably pushed them back another month ;)
[4:22] <piless> DaMummy: Make it a digestive.
[4:22] <DaMummy> milk goes well with cookies
[4:22] <GabrialDestruir> Farnell apparently doesn't answer emails, so emailing them wouldn't of done any good anyways.
[4:22] <DaMummy> nobody ever mentioned what kind
[4:23] <piless> GabrialDestruir: Try pretending to be a business.
[4:23] <Henchman21> you know i saw an android app that would auto check the raspberry pi store every like 1-5-10 min
[4:23] <piless> Henchman21: That app was terrible.. so many false alarms
[4:24] <Henchman21> that with the pissed off people spamming f5 and refresh after 1sec its no wonder the sites where dos'd
[4:24] * julesw (julesw@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:75ea) Quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
[4:25] <piless> Henchman21: Errr no, the problem was that liz woman told everyone to search for it.. Do you have any idea how much more taxing on the servers that would be?!
[4:25] <GabrialDestruir> That and the fact they also told us "If you got the "Express interest" you've got the wrong page"
[4:25] <GabrialDestruir> which caused people to search for it MORE
[4:25] <GabrialDestruir> and browse for it and everything
[4:26] <ReggieUK> hahahaha :)
[4:26] <Henchman21> i ended up ording mine like 2-3 weeks after the "release"
[4:26] <ReggieUK> I did bugger all to get my order through
[4:26] <ReggieUK> sent my dad a message on msn
[4:26] <ReggieUK> and he ordered it for me
[4:26] <Henchman21> says estimated delivery apr,3
[4:26] <piless> And it's not like liz is going to admit that she fucked up..
[4:27] <ReggieUK> and someone has recieved a pi
[4:27] <Henchman21> oh wouldnt that be sweet if it shipped the 3rd
[4:27] <GabrialDestruir> Eh, it wasn't completely her fault if you believe the rumors.
[4:27] <ReggieUK> as a prize on element14
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[4:27] * PiBot sets mode +v warddr
[4:27] <GabrialDestruir> How could someone receive a Pi if they have to be CE tested or w/e?
[4:28] <piless> ReggieUK: I gave up after an hour and went back to sleep, and then ordered after they sent me an email a day or so after
[4:28] <Henchman21> it still says apr3 (im logged into newarks site and looking at my order history)
[4:28] <DaMummy> bah
[4:28] <DaMummy> farnell changed my order
[4:28] <DaMummy> shipdate aug 16th :{ was april 2nd yesterday
[4:28] <GabrialDestruir> At least you have dynamic order dates?
[4:28] <GabrialDestruir> lol
[4:28] <piless> uk.farnell don't even list an estimated ship date on my page :(
[4:28] <steve_rox> they shouldent of tryed to release like this :-P it was mayhem
[4:29] <piless> steve_rox: How then?
[4:29] <Henchman21> hey if they changed it that must mean its more accurate then
[4:29] <GabrialDestruir> export.farnell just shows "Back Order" and the last email they saw fit to send me was "April 16th" the day I ordered it.
[4:30] <GabrialDestruir> The .org site claims that you haven't lost your place... farnell's systems just bumped everyone back to compensate for CE testing
[4:30] <piless> GabrialDestruir: Ditto, except I got an update email saying "early may"
[4:30] <Henchman21> or they're pulling an obama bring our troops home tactic, "next year"(next year comes) "next year"
[4:30] <piless> Don't trust the .org..
[4:31] <Henchman21> just over that hill, er the next hill
[4:31] <DaMummy> Work for a better tomorrow, tomorrow!
[4:31] <GabrialDestruir> We???d like to apologise to all customers who placed orders with Newark element14 and have seen their acknowledged delivery date suddenly change on our website???s order backlog to August 2012. At present, as already communicated by Raspberry Pi, all deliveries are on hold awaiting the outcome of the compliance testing currently taking place. etc etc etc
[4:32] <GabrialDestruir> Let's just pool together our money and go raid the factories? >.>
[4:32] <Henchman21> man screw compliance testing
[4:32] <piless> We recognise the impact on our customers of the constantly changing delivery dates, and we apologise for the frustration and disappointment this is causing. We will supply you with accurate delivery dates just as soon as we can, as the Boards undergo compliance testing.
[4:33] <piless> GabrialDestruir: I'd rather raid the distribution centres locally than pay to fly to china
[4:36] <GabrialDestruir> I'm not sure which would be more annoying.... them having my card information and something that says they can pull money for their product if they ever get it shippable.... or if they would of actually taken the money and I didn't have to worry about it?
[4:37] * Compy (~Compy@c-98-251-52-68.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit ()
[4:37] <piless> GabrialDestruir: It would be much more sketchy if they took the money. Some similar companies have gotten into a lot of shit for taking pre-order money and holding onto it for months.
[4:38] <piless> You can earn a lot of interest with all that money, even if you refund them a couple months later.. It's just a bit scummy
[4:39] <GabrialDestruir> I have to say, the new gertboard features look pretty cool.
[4:41] * warddr (~warddr@Wikipedia/Warddr) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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[4:42] * PiBot sets mode +v oberling_
[4:44] <ReggieUK> what new features GabrialDestruir?
[4:44] <GabrialDestruir> Well it looks like it has a couple new button inputs, support for analog sliders etc
[4:45] <ReggieUK> I saw a tricorder 'thing' on hackaday the other day, checked out the link for the science one and it turns out that all of the sensors are standard items that you might find at sparkfun
[4:45] <piofcube> Not a medical tricorder then? ;-)
[4:46] <ReggieUK> made me think of the pi immediately
[4:46] * oberling (~oberling@brln-4d0c0d01.pool.mediaWays.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[4:46] <ReggieUK> no but there was a medical version there too I think
[4:47] <piofcube> IIRC there's a million dollar reward for anyone that can make a real functional medical tricorder
[4:47] <ReggieUK> but you know it's not great when the only things that interest you in a device are the fact that it had twin oled touchscreens
[4:47] <GabrialDestruir> tricorder? >.>
[4:47] <piless> can you get one of these slider dials like on fallout's pipboy?
[4:48] <piless> GabrialDestruir: startrek
[4:48] <ReggieUK> it boiled down to an arm linux dev board and a bunch of sparkfun breakouts
[4:48] <piless> http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/505331-fallout-3-playstation-3-screenshot-you-will-use-pip-boy-3000.jpg
[4:49] <ReggieUK> is that like an old radio slider dial piless?
[4:49] <Henchman21> that is logical
[4:49] <piless> yeah
[4:49] <piless> it would be sooooooooo satisfying to turn
[4:49] <piless> click click click
[4:50] <ReggieUK> looks like a rotary encoder thing to me (the dial just poking out of the front face on the left?)
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[4:50] * PiBot sets mode +v mpthompson
[4:51] <piless> yeah, between the screen and the pipboy logo
[4:51] <GabrialDestruir> You'd think we'd have the ability to have something a bit like the pipboy.... though perhaps not with the "inventory management"
[4:51] <ReggieUK> yeah, rotary encoder would give that click
[4:51] <ReggieUK> nice tactile feedback
[4:52] <ReggieUK> what is it?
[4:52] <piless> Yeah, just stick that and a couple of knobs and switches next to a regular screen, you don't any touchscreens.. knobs ftw
[4:52] <ReggieUK> I've not played fallout3
[4:52] <ReggieUK> I Think I barely looked at the first one
[4:53] <piless> ReggieUK: It's like skyrim, except with guns and an apocalyptic landscape.
[4:53] <ReggieUK> not played that either
[4:53] * passstab (~coplon@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[4:53] * PiBot sets mode +v warddr
[4:53] * warddr (~warddr@ Quit (Changing host)
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[4:53] * PiBot sets mode +v warddr
[4:54] <GabrialDestruir> Fallout 3 is okay
[4:54] <GabrialDestruir> but it has a lot of bugs
[4:55] <ReggieUK> I@m not so keen on the futuristic fps/3rd person stuff
[4:56] <piless> ReggieUK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYZpR51XgW0
[4:56] <ReggieUK> mw3 was the last thing I played
[4:57] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[4:59] <piless> ReggieUK: It has a massive stereotypical 50's feel to it, even though it's set in an alternate future
[5:03] <ReggieUK> :) you get that feel from teh trailer :)
[5:04] <piless> ReggieUK: They never invented the transistor in their universe I think
[5:05] <GabrialDestruir> Their entire society existed on radiation and stuff
[5:05] <ReggieUK> looks like they did but spent all their efforts on weapons, nukes and bots rather than fluffy computers for the masses
[5:05] <GabrialDestruir> or decent cars
[5:05] <piless> All their computers never really got smaller than room size
[5:05] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:05] * PiBot sets mode +v mcinerney
[5:05] <GabrialDestruir> or non radioactive based products
[5:06] <piless> the cars were nuclear powered, that's why they blow up when you shoot them
[5:06] <piless> Fallout: New Vegas was a much better game in my opinion though, it had more of the humour of the first two
[5:07] <piless> And the setting was better
[5:07] * cjbaird (~cjb@ppp121-44-36-214.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net) has left #raspberrypi
[5:07] <GabrialDestruir> I just recently acquired the first two and tactics
[5:07] <piless> You eventually got sick of always using the subway tunnels in fallout3
[5:07] <GabrialDestruir> I think I'm gonna start with 1 and go through them all .
[5:07] <piless> GabrialDestruir: You might want to skip tactics
[5:08] <piless> It's a completely different beast.
[5:08] <GabrialDestruir> The thing that bugs me about 3 was walking everywhere who haven't been before.
[5:08] <GabrialDestruir> you haven't*
[5:09] <piless> why? the whole game was about exploration
[5:09] <GabrialDestruir> Just was so slow xD
[5:10] <piless> Yeah, have you played new vegas?
[5:10] <piless> They made the map a bit more compact in new vegas
[5:14] * hamitron (~hamitron@just.screw-the.eu) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[5:16] <GabrialDestruir> Eh I played some of it. Then I got busy with other stuff and never got back to playing it
[5:18] <piless> Well, I ended up putting way more hours in new vegas than 3, although new vegas is a lot buggier
[5:27] <GabrialDestruir> Bethseda and bugs go hand in hand.
[5:27] <GabrialDestruir> lol
[5:29] <DaMummy> never star playing skyrim
[5:29] <DaMummy> 370hours into.....
[5:29] <ShiftPlusOne> they fix bugs eventually... at least to a point where it's very playable and all the game braking bugs are gone.
[5:29] <GabrialDestruir> lol Morrowind has it's own issues. xD
[5:29] <ShiftPlusOne> yeah, the initial releases were horrible, but they're fine now
[5:29] <GabrialDestruir> Huge bug where if you steal anything?
[5:30] <GabrialDestruir> All copies of that item are stolen
[5:30] <ReggieUK> I just want to throw frag grenades and shoot people in the face
[5:30] <GabrialDestruir> even if you legit acquired them
[5:30] <ReggieUK> not interested in the rest of it really
[5:31] <ReggieUK> splinter cell is another favourite of mine
[5:31] <ReggieUK> counterstrike source
[5:31] <ReggieUK> cs 1.6
[5:32] <GabrialDestruir> I think deus ex human revolution is my favorite game currently
[5:32] <ReggieUK> I actually played that
[5:32] <DaMummy> diablo3 coming out
[5:32] <ReggieUK> but towards the end it was a bit yawny
[5:32] <ReggieUK> never bothered with diablo either
[5:32] <DaMummy> im sure ill gain another 20 pounds during diablo3
[5:32] <GabrialDestruir> I haven't got past China yet on Deus Ex....
[5:33] <GabrialDestruir> been taking my time
[5:33] <DaMummy> i havent played 1 or 2 either, or havent played past 1 hour, but diablo3 looks very much like something ill enjoy
[5:33] <GabrialDestruir> D2 was fun... but the whole point and click to move around bugged me.
[5:34] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[5:35] * warddr (~warddr@Wikipedia/Warddr) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[5:37] <piless> fyi Bethseda didn't develop new vegas, Obsidian did.
[5:38] * tRank (~Fari@5e0991cc.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[5:39] * tRank (~Fari@5e0991cc.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:39] * PiBot sets mode +v tRank
[5:39] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:39] * PiBot sets mode +v MrJackson
[5:40] * tRank (~Fari@5e0991cc.bb.sky.com) Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
[5:40] <GabrialDestruir> Fair enough, but Bethseda still isn't known for publishing games that don't have a host of bugs
[5:41] * tRank (~Fari@5e0991cc.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:41] * PiBot sets mode +v tRank
[5:42] <piless> Yeah, but often in open world games you have to account for so much more in the QA process. You can't assume a linear path.
[5:43] <GabrialDestruir> Yes, but when the bugs exist in places where you only have a single direction to go... example the whole process before you get to run around...
[5:43] <GabrialDestruir> It's a bit ridiculous they don't clean those up.
[5:44] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[5:46] * piless (561ec4a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[5:48] * tRank (~Fari@5e0991cc.bb.sky.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[5:49] * phantoxe (~destroy@a95-92-89-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) Quit ()
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[5:49] * PiBot sets mode +v tRank
[5:49] * nrdb (~neil@CPE-58-168-114-42.lns9.ken.bigpond.net.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[5:49] <DaMummy> what instance? bethesda does clean them up
[5:50] <GabrialDestruir> Fallout 3?
[5:51] <GabrialDestruir> There were major bugs when I was playing it where it'd crash during the whole childhood to "adult" thing
[5:52] <DaMummy> try an update?
[5:53] <GabrialDestruir> Steam keeps games up tto date automatically
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[5:54] * PiBot sets mode +v victhor__
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[5:55] * PiBot sets mode +v customtronics
[5:59] * customtronics (~puppy@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Client Quit)
[6:12] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca5627.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[6:16] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@t410.student.rit.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:16] * PiBot sets mode +v RITRedbeard
[6:16] <RITRedbeard> evening
[6:17] <RITRedbeard> I almost got laid tonight. You won't believe what happened and why I couldn't seal the deal.
[6:17] <RITRedbeard> Sheesh!
[6:17] <GabrialDestruir> It wouldn't getet up?
[6:17] <GabrialDestruir> get up*
[6:17] <RITRedbeard> Any other guesses?
[6:17] <DaMummy> cousin
[6:18] <mpthompson> She was a he?
[6:18] <DaMummy> her parents kicked you out
[6:18] <RITRedbeard> Not quite, apparently my condom's didn't have a CE mark.
[6:18] <GabrialDestruir> lmfao
[6:18] <GabrialDestruir> xD
[6:18] <mpthompson> Her kids kicked you out?
[6:18] <RITRedbeard> So I had to send the entire package back to China.
[6:18] <RITRedbeard> What is the world coming to?
[6:19] <mpthompson> At least you had your "magnetics" on correctly.
[6:19] <DaMummy> you get condoms from china? you know what that means, right?
[6:19] <mpthompson> That's why there are a billion+ chinese.
[6:20] <GabrialDestruir> Condoms from China bahaha xD
[6:24] * MystX (~MystX@49-50-247-177.a.hd.net.nz) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:24] * PiBot sets mode +v MystX
[6:24] <RITRedbeard> Well, it's convenient! Just go right on monoprice... $2 25ft HDMI cable? Check. $5 20 pack of prophylactics? Check. All in one location!
[6:24] * mcinerney (~jsmith@peter.mcinerney.id.au) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:24] * PiBot sets mode +v mcinerney
[6:24] <RITRedbeard> Don't even have to go to the drug store and get embarrassing stares from the clerk!
[6:24] <DaMummy> monoprice located in california
[6:25] * dnstbr (~dnstbr@cpe-72-191-156-43.rgv.res.rr.com) Quit ()
[6:27] <mpthompson> When I was a much younger man (many decades ago) at the local pharmacy store, when a nervice guy asked for condoms, the pharmacist would ask "what size?" just to rattle their cage. It worked too.
[6:28] <RITRedbeard> uhhh a large.. could you supersize that?
[6:29] <RITRedbeard> no ice
[6:29] <mpthompson> That's what she said...
[6:30] <mpthompson> Too obscure a reference I guess.
[6:31] <RITRedbeard> :)
[6:33] <mpthompson> For anyone hoping to do major compilations on a RPi, forget it. I'm doing compilations on a 1GHz, 1GB ARMv7 system and it's taking forever. C++ are the worse. Slow as molasses.
[6:33] <SpeedEvil> You need the right tools.
[6:33] <RITRedbeard> isn't there a well established tool chain for cross compliation already? I haven't looked into it
[6:34] <SpeedEvil> http://xkcd.com/303/
[6:34] <mpthompson> Well, actually, think you'll just need a LOT of patience. I did do a kernel compilation the other day on an ARMv5 system with 128 megs and the kernel took about six hours. Not too terrible, but it's about 10 minutes on my PC.
[6:35] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[6:35] <SpeedEvil> Depends what you're doing.
[6:35] <mpthompson> I'm recompiling a ton of Debian packages for the RPi. I'm kinda stuck with whatever the package requires.
[6:35] <SpeedEvil> You probably don't want to build firefox, or huge numbers of packages, but the odd package here and there is generally not scary
[6:37] * MystX (~MystX@49-50-247-177.a.hd.net.nz) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:37] <mpthompson> Right now I'm suffering through Boost C++ library compilation and those take about 12 hours on the ARM system I'm using. I've heard there are some Debian packages that take 50+ hours to build lurking out there.
[6:37] <RITRedbeard> nohup make?
[6:37] <RITRedbeard> with maybe nice of some level
[6:37] <RITRedbeard> Well, you'll have been waiting 12 months, what is another 12 hours more?
[6:37] <RITRedbeard> or 12 months more!
[6:38] <mpthompson> Well, the compilation is the only thing going so my load average is 1.00 during the compile. Swap isn't being touched so it's not IO bound. It's just slow...
[6:38] <SpeedEvil> I found on my phone that -j2 was lots faster than 1
[6:38] <mpthompson> Well, the delays are good for me that I may have a working Debian hard float distribution before the RPis ship.
[6:38] * blemmm (~em@ has joined #raspberrypi
[6:38] * PiBot sets mode +v blemmm
[6:38] <SpeedEvil> - 256M, 600MHz arm
[6:39] <SpeedEvil> - n900
[6:39] <SpeedEvil> at least for the kernel
[6:40] <des2> I don't believe his story.
[6:40] <mpthompson> C code is still pleasantly fast. A package with 100 C files can generally be whipped through in about 10 minutes -- most of the time being taken up by the Debian packaging chores.
[6:40] <des2> All Chinese condoms have fake CE marks.
[6:42] <mpthompson> I shudder at C++ compilations. It's been about 10 years since I've worked with G++ and I wonder what the hell happened to it? I was using it on 100 MHz PCs 10 years ago and I didn't notice a difference between C and C++ compilations.
[6:43] <des2> They've added all this cool stuff.
[6:43] <blemmm> "It's good enough"
[6:43] <RITRedbeard> bleh
[6:44] <mpthompson> Now, a C++ file takes 30 to 60 seconds to compile. I assuming it's pulling in the world. Either that or the people who make some of the packages include every header "just to be safe".
[6:45] <RITRedbeard> ?
[6:45] <RITRedbeard> don't they teach people how to use the preprocessor anymore?
[6:46] <mpthompson> My background is more with FreeBSD as a developer, although I've been a Linux user for 10 years now. I'm kinda shocked how random the Linux stuff really is when you start assembling it all yourself.
[6:46] <mpthompson> At least compared to a BSD. (Not trying to start a flame war or anything, just stating an observation).
[6:46] <RITRedbeard> like the collective minds of a thousand individual opinions on how to build a bridge came together
[6:47] <RITRedbeard> and in the end you have something that works, but only in days begnning with the letter T
[6:47] <RITRedbeard> and some other errata
[6:49] <mpthompson> Often a core package will include a library that I'll so, OK, let me just go get that and compile that. Well, it turns out that little library is part of a 12 megabyte source code monstrosity that you have to compile the whole thing just to get the one library out. Sheesh.
[6:49] <RITRedbeard> I know what you mean.
[6:50] <RITRedbeard> It begs the question that perhaps some wheels should be reinvented given the platform.
[6:51] <mpthompson> Anyway, just griping while I wait for some compilations. Actually, it's taken me about 3 days to compile all the Debian core packages which isn't too bad I guess. Free BSD was a pleasure to compile in comparison. Just a few commands got you the kernel and the base userland.
[6:51] <mpthompson> Hmmm, maybe I should be looking to get NetBSD running on the RPi. :-)
[6:51] <RITRedbeard> But I'm a big fan of Wirth's paper, "A Plea for Lean Software"
[6:52] <mpthompson> He obviously anticipated the today's bloat.
[6:52] * jzaw (~jzaw@ has joined #raspberrypi
[6:52] * PiBot sets mode +v jzaw
[6:52] <RITRedbeard> Awhile ago I was constructing code for a webpage. I don't do web developement much. I wanted to create galleries with thumbnails.
[6:53] <RITRedbeard> I had read that you can use the full size image and resize it but the browser will still use all the bandwidth for downloading that image, then resize and go to presentation layer.
[6:53] <RITRedbeard> OK, how can I batch job creation of thumbnails?
[6:53] <RITRedbeard> "Just use imagemagik."
[6:53] <tntexplosivesltd> that
[6:53] <tntexplosivesltd> yes
[6:54] <RITRedbeard> "How do I do it without imagemagick?"
[6:54] <RITRedbeard> "You don't."
[6:54] <RITRedbeard> "You don't?"
[6:54] <tntexplosivesltd> well imagemagick is pretty terrible
[6:54] <RITRedbeard> "sudo apt-get imagemagick"
[6:55] <RITRedbeard> "Ehhh, package is like 20mb large, my platform is embedded. Piss off."
[6:55] <RITRedbeard> but it sounds like you're experiencing some form of dependency hell, mpthompson
[6:56] <mpthompson> Think its bad under Linux? Sheeh, I had to get Imagemagick going under Windows as part of my son's Ruby environment I'm using to teach him programming. Took me hours to get it working.
[6:56] <tntexplosivesltd> mpthompson: Ruby...? Windows...?
[6:57] <tntexplosivesltd> you're doing it wrong
[6:57] <RITRedbeard> I just saw several words that do not belong in the same sentence.
[6:57] <mpthompson> Actually, I am. Basically, I'm compiling enough of the Debian armhf packages to create a minimal system that hopefully will demonstrate the advantages of hard float on the RPi.
[6:57] <RITRedbeard> Namely: Ruby, Windows, Teach, imagemagick.
[6:57] <mpthompson> I know. Windows was one of them I'm sure.
[6:58] * blemmm (~em@ has left #raspberrypi
[6:58] <tntexplosivesltd> you do know that you have control of this crazy train, right?
[6:58] <RITRedbeard> No. You don't. You're going off your rails on a crazy train.
[6:58] <mpthompson> I've got all but 4 or 5 Debian packages built and I'm just tracking the problems with those down now.
[6:59] <tntexplosivesltd> RITRedbeard: good song
[6:59] <RITRedbeard> Windows, mental wounds still screaming, driving me insaneeeeee
[7:00] <mpthompson> I'll admit, getting Ruby going with Gosu and associated multimedia packages was a breeze under Ubuntu than it was under Linux. My son just likes Windows because of -- drumroll -- the games.
[7:01] <RITRedbeard> Ruby and Windows. Strange games. The only winning move is not to play.
[7:01] <mpthompson> Yeah, just fixed one of my problem packages. Only five more to go. Tracked down where it was statically linking a library to infect it with ARMv7 code. A "no no" for packages destined for an RPi.
[7:02] <mpthompson> Ah, it's not too bad once you've paid tribute to the great BillG in Redmond.
[7:02] <tntexplosivesltd> mpthompson: teach him to dualboot
[7:04] <RITRedbeard> Eh, not so much about shamanism or deities but a matter of philosophy. UNIX hertiage brings along a lot of garbage along with the POSIX clones and their intricate differences.
[7:04] <mpthompson> I should. But, I plan on giving him one of the RPi's I have on order. I just have to figure out how to get him to appreciate it. He's 10 and at that age I would have killed for an RPi.
[7:04] <RITRedbeard> At the end of the day though, it's like the cold war
[7:04] <RITRedbeard> It's like that damn movie.
[7:04] <RITRedbeard> Dr Strangelove, or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love The Bomb
[7:04] <mpthompson> Yep. Yeah Hawwwwwwwwwwwww.....
[7:05] <RITRedbeard> Say it with me: vi is great!
[7:05] <RITRedbeard> Say it with me: FHS is great!
[7:05] <RITRedbeard> Say it with me: block i/o file devices are great!
[7:05] * koaschten (~koaschten@31-16-2-45-dynip.superkabel.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[7:06] <mpthompson> I have vi code strokes imprinted in my brain! I'm certain I'll remember them when I'm 97.
[7:06] <RITRedbeard> it really is philosophy; you kinda have to have a gestalt flip and be enlightened
[7:07] <mpthompson> I was thinking about when I first started using Sun3 systems. 30 or 40 MHz 020 with 40 MB hard drives. How did it ever all fit?
[7:07] <RITRedbeard> but it is a philosophy that is extremely powerful; you ever see a tcsh or bash wizard?
[7:07] <RITRedbeard> my god, man!
[7:08] <RITRedbeard> their terminal's cursor and text move so fast!
[7:09] <RITRedbeard> For the people who use Powershell, we will promptly ignore you. All twelve of you.
[7:09] <RITRedbeard> And people who know MVS and how to write JCL are going into retirement homes.
[7:09] <mpthompson> Yeah. I never did get the hang of emacs myself. Vi was always good enough.
[7:09] <RITRedbeard> And all those VAX instructions are just a distant memory now...
[7:11] <mpthompson> I worked with IBM 390's with REXX, does that count for anything? I also worked with the Amdahl Unix (was it Ultrix???) that ran on the 390 as a virtual machine. I was amazed how fast it was at the time.
[7:11] <RITRedbeard> hehehehe
[7:11] <RITRedbeard> bit of a mistruth
[7:11] <RITRedbeard> when people invest millions of dollars in a computing system
[7:12] <RITRedbeard> they will use it for decades to make good on the investment
[7:12] <mpthompson> That was also the days of uucp!!! I was one of young whipper snappers whould could work its magic to keep the usenet feeds going.
[7:12] <RITRedbeard> IBM 360 is all good, System Z is good.
[7:12] <RITRedbeard> If a bit quirky.
[7:12] <RITRedbeard> Perhaps too quirky.
[7:12] <RITRedbeard> Like Bell's Plan9.
[7:12] <mpthompson> The IBM terminals were hell. A page submit key? Please.
[7:13] <RITRedbeard> oh
[7:13] <RITRedbeard> being a 22 year old software engineer intern last summer...
[7:13] <RITRedbeard> probably the worst thing
[7:14] <RITRedbeard> reading a dump on the goddamn IBM 3270 terminal emulator
[7:14] <RITRedbeard> and of course every dump was extremely detailed
[7:14] <mpthompson> One of my first tasks was programming a special device that allowed regular ASCII terminals (ADM3A's and some VT100 knockoffs) to hook up to the IBM systems.
[7:15] <RITRedbeard> excruciatingly detailed; however, it was just as hard as going to the vsam and shooting the dump to a temporary linear vsam and spooling it to printer
[7:15] <mikey_w> I designed, built and tested Magnuson Systems plug compatible 360/370s.
[7:16] * victhor__ (~victhor@ Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[7:16] <mpthompson> Another old timer... :-)
[7:16] <RITRedbeard> all that IBM "old" technology is incredibly modern, though
[7:16] <RITRedbeard> in the scheme of things
[7:16] <mikey_w> Fun stuff.
[7:17] <tntexplosivesltd> only people who are naive call it "old"
[7:17] <tntexplosivesltd> mostly my generation
[7:17] <RITRedbeard> the entire concept of hypervisor
[7:17] <RITRedbeard> the biggest pain in the ass for IBM iron is the abstractions required to maintain backwards compatibility with customers who STILL HAVE a 360 or something
[7:18] <mpthompson> It was on the IBM mainframes that I first heard the concept of "virtual machines". Apparently that is how they did concurrency back then.
[7:18] <RITRedbeard> ohhh yeahhhhh
[7:19] <RITRedbeard> in cryptography and computing theory sometimes it is easier to think of a turning machine that can fork n times
[7:19] <RITRedbeard> even Plan9's concepts are ahead of their time
[7:19] <RITRedbeard> Even damn UNIX concepts are still ahead of their time
[7:19] <mpthompson> Coming from a Unix background in college, I never did get my head wrapped around IBM mainframe stuff. Being a punk back then, I just kept my mouth shut and learned the bare minimum to get my job done.
[7:19] <RITRedbeard> VAX iron?
[7:20] <RITRedbeard> or Sun workstations?
[7:20] * oldtopman (~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman) Quit (Quit: oldtopman has left the house)
[7:20] <mpthompson> Too long ago to recall the exact systems. It was a precursor to the Sun systems (circa 1985) and were probably 68010 based.
[7:21] <RITRedbeard> Good stuff.
[7:21] <RITRedbeard> I'm too young for such nonsense.
[7:21] <mpthompson> Never touched VAX. Although they were discussed in all the books I read at the time.
[7:22] <RITRedbeard> But working for IBM was a joy and also the school of the hard knocks, which IMHO is great way to learn.
[7:22] <RITRedbeard> Don't take that path of least resistance. Take the time to stop, breathe, and think.
[7:22] <mpthompson> My first computer was a TRS80 Color Computer that I got when I was 12 or 13 -- saved up about $400 to buy the thing.
[7:23] <RITRedbeard> Although I do know of such shenannigans. Also, some state departments here in the US use iron that isn't IBM.
[7:23] <RITRedbeard> Like Unisys.
[7:23] <mpthompson> It had a whopping 4K or RAM which I upgraded to 16K and then to 32K by stacking RAM chips. Not bad for a 15 year old.
[7:23] <RITRedbeard> Which I think I'd shoot myself in the face.
[7:24] <mpthompson> I remember using Wang word processors when I worked for the Debt of Defense. They must of made a fortune off the US government at the time.
[7:25] <mpthompson> If I recall correctly, all the IBM PC XTs also ran some form of Unix on them. It was something really strange that they all ran. I really should look it up one of these days.
[7:25] <RITRedbeard> http://www.herrera.unt.edu.ar/arqcom/Descargas/webext3.pdf
[7:25] <RITRedbeard> fuck that
[7:26] <mpthompson> I never saw it outside of the government.
[7:26] <RITRedbeard> funny, I went to career fair on wednesday
[7:26] <RITRedbeard> I pretty much looked at all defense/government people
[7:27] <RITRedbeard> Keep forgetting I'll probably run into some dusty systems.
[7:27] <RITRedbeard> But not so dusty after all, eh?
[7:28] <mpthompson> I'm sure you would. Do you think the DMV runs something modern?
[7:28] <RITRedbeard> is there a build of inferno (plan9) that works on ARM?
[7:28] <RITRedbeard> I think the DMV runs on blondes talking to one another instead of calling the next person's number so they can get their business sorted.
[7:29] <RITRedbeard> It is a source of power we will be researching and using in the automobile industry directly; driving your cars, sometime in 2020.
[7:29] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[7:30] <mpthompson> I looked it up, IBM ran Xenix on their computers while I worked at the Dept of Defense. Fun stuff.
[7:30] <RITRedbeard> Xenix
[7:30] <RITRedbeard> that's the one
[7:31] <mpthompson> Redbeard, what is your interest in the RPi.
[7:31] <RITRedbeard> Xenix --> license to Microsoft for 8086/88 and Z80 --> SCO --> Lawsuits!
[7:32] <RITRedbeard> Computing education.
[7:32] <mpthompson> Lawsuites --> Chapter 11
[7:32] <RITRedbeard> Minimalism in computing (less is more, keep it simple stupid, Do one thing, do it well)
[7:33] <RITRedbeard> Parallel computing and applications of low power, low cost systems in asymmetric and symmetric cryptography
[7:33] <mpthompson> I'm somewhat the same, although from a more personal nature. I'm looking for things to inspire my kids -- which isn't an easy thing to do.
[7:33] <RITRedbeard> I can see how powerful the Raspberry Pi can be.
[7:33] <SpeedEvil> A PII/300 or so
[7:33] <RITRedbeard> It can be as influential as the Commodore 64.
[7:34] <SpeedEvil> No way.
[7:34] <RITRedbeard> Okay, well, if someone builds a SID expansion board... :)
[7:34] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:34] * PiBot sets mode +v MrJackson
[7:35] <RITRedbeard> If I had something like a Commodore 64 or Amiga versus Pentium with 3.11... I would probably have 15 years of experience towards programming and computer science
[7:35] <RITRedbeard> versus the 15 such years I have of general troubleshooting x86 knowledge
[7:35] <mpthompson> I kind see it as kind of the next step from the Arduino. However, the big advantage of the Arduino is it is easy to repurpose to general design, something probably not as easy with the RPi.
[7:36] <Henchman21> not really
[7:36] <Henchman21> think the pi has way more potential
[7:36] <Henchman21> not to mention if coupled with an arduino
[7:36] <RITRedbeard> arduino is kinda like Atmel with training wheels
[7:37] <RITRedbeard> where the training wheels are power regulator, FTDI, firmware upload suite, sub-language (Processing)
[7:37] <Henchman21> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buttered_cat_paradox
[7:37] <mpthompson> I'll know what you mean. On my Color Computer I taught myself 6809 assembly and paid for my Jr. Prom in HS with a program I sold and published in a computer magazine.
[7:38] <mpthompson> The funny thing is, computers are 10,000x more powerful, but much less approachable. Hopefully the RPi can help reverse that trend.
[7:38] <RITRedbeard> I see the potential of Raspberry Pi, not that it will be as influential or iconic as the C64.
[7:38] <SpeedEvil> On the Pi, there are _way_ more distractions.
[7:38] <RITRedbeard> However, Pi seems to be viewed as Arduino with ARM/$25 HDMI DVR Roku Cheapo Hackadoodle
[7:39] <SpeedEvil> In the 80s, there was not multichannel TV, the internet (with streaming real-time porn), online gaming, ...
[7:39] <RITRedbeard> You had badass music.
[7:39] <RITRedbeard> And stereo systems.
[7:39] <SpeedEvil> These are all distractions to your average teenager.
[7:39] <RITRedbeard> And shop class.
[7:39] <SpeedEvil> Or 12 year old
[7:39] <RITRedbeard> Build your own book shelf speakers with badass drivers.
[7:39] <RITRedbeard> That's why hardware alone is not enough.
[7:40] <RITRedbeard> Even if you paid RPF for them to give it away.
[7:40] <mpthompson> I was having pretty good luck with my 10 year old teaching him Ruby and game programming with Gosu. I hope to transition him over to the RPi.
[7:40] <Henchman21> computer controlled fish feeder
[7:40] <RITRedbeard> Computer Science... computing in general needs a Carl Sagan.
[7:41] <mpthompson> Today we were in a restaurant and he saw a floating graphic on a screen saver and he told me "I know how to do that", then he told me basically what he would do to replicate it. Not a bad start.
[7:41] <RITRedbeard> Billions and billions... of clock cycles
[7:41] <RITRedbeard> well, almost a billion!
[7:42] * MystX (~MystX@49-50-247-177.a.hd.net.nz) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:42] * PiBot sets mode +v MystX
[7:42] <SpeedEvil> :)
[7:42] <SpeedEvil> The Pi can do billions
[7:42] <mpthompson> I like to discuss programming as a form of artistic expression -- however even other programmers don't always follow what I mean. Other parents, their eyes just glaze over.
[7:42] <SpeedEvil> Just not in the CPU
[7:42] <RITRedbeard> shhhh
[7:42] <RITRedbeard> videocore doesn't count
[7:43] <RITRedbeard> You read the book Catch 22 by Joseph Heller?
[7:43] <RITRedbeard> They ought to just omit half the damn name.
[7:43] <RITRedbeard> ---core IV.
[7:43] <RITRedbeard> where the three dashes can signify NDA
[7:44] <RITRedbeard> Major --- DeCoverly
[7:44] <mpthompson> I like that, "computing in general needs a Carl Sagan".
[7:44] * DaMummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: Happy Now?)
[7:46] <RITRedbeard> Well, people need to start dreaming. You can't have breakthroughs and such when computing isn't apart of common curriculae in Northern America or the Western World.
[7:47] <mpthompson> Now that my kids are entering middle school, I was shocked to discover that my introduction to computers when I was in school (circa 1978) was better than what kids today get.
[7:47] <RITRedbeard> They need to start thinking. Computers aren't simply just contained units of automata that do your bidding. That send 150 characters of text. It is something taken for granted.
[7:49] <RITRedbeard> The truth of the matter is behind every product, behind every tool of disgust and grace stands an engineer or a scientist --
[7:49] <mpthompson> From what I can tell, a kid thinking about taking "control" of their computer is something that is alien to them. They don't consider controlling it any more than they consider they can change the content of a megazine.
[7:50] * AdrianG (~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[7:50] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[7:50] <RITRedbeard> It isn't enough that you think about the world today, but rather the world of tomorrow and making tomorrow come. This cultural mindset is mainly gone.
[7:50] <RITRedbeard> Because it is scientists and engineers are the dreamers who make the future come.
[7:51] <mpthompson> The level of knowledge required to even begin understanding what is going on is just too much for a kid. Not to mention 98% of the adults population.
[7:51] <RITRedbeard> In my lifetime the current big thing is computational mathematics.
[7:52] <mpthompson> It literally is magic to them and they just tune it out. They might as well day dream about being a movie star or something as that is just as real.
[7:52] <SpeedEvil> It's a _lot_ easier to absorb if you go from 8 bit systems where you can understand basically teh whole sytems including all the OS calls (if you choose to) - up through complexity.
[7:52] <SpeedEvil> Trying to teach how a modern PC works is hard.
[7:52] <RITRedbeard> We have abundance of computing power in all senses of the word. Eventually it is hoped we will be able to begin to mathematically model complex systems in medicine with the precise language of mathematics
[7:53] <SpeedEvil> I note that humans are better at protein folding than computers still.
[7:53] <RITRedbeard> These people who make tomorrow come are birthed into our society by influential people. People who also dreaming. Making dreams come true.
[7:53] * Laogeodritt (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[7:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.pnas.org/content/108/47/18949
[7:54] <RITRedbeard> There is a serious problem when you take someone like myself, for instance, 15+ years of general computer usage
[7:54] <mpthompson> Well, for computers to become as complex as biological systems we need to still make leaps of understanding in complexity and emergence. I don't feel that computers exhibit emergent properties except at the most rudimentary levels.
[7:54] <RITRedbeard> you introduce him to UNIX, FHS, bash... concepts that are 'old'
[7:54] <RITRedbeard> and the person goes "Where have these things been all my life?"
[7:54] <SpeedEvil> RITRedbeard: :/
[7:55] <mpthompson> In what sense "where have they been?". They've been there waiting to be discovered by you. Correct?
[7:55] <RITRedbeard> I had to dream hard enough and I had to look.
[7:56] <RITRedbeard> Surely if they did not exist in thought, I would have dreamt them up in some fashion.
[7:56] <RITRedbeard> Possibly.
[7:57] <mpthompson> Is what you are asking: Why weren't you able to discover them at 14?
[7:57] <RITRedbeard> We can talk about cultural causes, we can talk about funding, we can talk about epistomology and why people don't care how "complex" machines work
[7:57] <RITRedbeard> I certainly was able to but it never clicked, many failed attempts.
[7:58] <RITRedbeard> Which is why we need a Carl Sagan of computing.
[7:58] <RITRedbeard> We need to get people galvanized and to start thinking and dreaming again.
[7:58] <mpthompson> Would having an RPI have perhaps changed things for you?
[7:59] <RITRedbeard> I could conjecture about RPI arguably, by itself, is as distracting as SpeedEvil I think said as a Windows box.
[7:59] <RITRedbeard> but I can tell you for certain if I was the right age
[7:59] <RITRedbeard> having a Commodore or Amiga would have changed the trajectory of my education as it is today
[7:59] <mpthompson> Well, at a fundamental level we've basically stopped being a society of makers. We are spoon fed our thoughts these days.
[8:00] <SpeedEvil> That, and 'proper' industry has gone away from the west.
[8:00] <SpeedEvil> Apart from in very limited realms like building.
[8:01] <RITRedbeard> Changing perceptions is important.
[8:01] <RITRedbeard> When I found out about Carl Sagan when I was 18, I was enlightened.
[8:02] <mpthompson> I live close to where the West Coast Makers Fair is every year. I love dragging my kids off to it to see cool things people are doing. Most, but not all, parents just don't understand the attraction of "making" things to me.
[8:02] <mpthompson> If you are 22 now, that is after he was dead. Correct?
[8:02] <SpeedEvil> It's scary.
[8:02] <RITRedbeard> Indeed.
[8:02] <mpthompson> I remember watch Cosmos as a kid. I've read his books up until his last -- The Demon Haunted World.
[8:03] <SpeedEvil> There is a complete disconnect that doesn't understand that if we are not primary producers of goods, that when china gets its middle-class into gear, and their internal market takes off in a huge way - they're not going to be interested in holding our debt anymore.
[8:03] <SpeedEvil> And then chinese stuff gets _way_ more expensive.
[8:03] <SpeedEvil> And china wants more raw materials at the same time.
[8:03] <mpthompson> I think that's already happening (the debt), but that's an entirely different conversation.
[8:04] <SpeedEvil> And suddenly we're faced with having no manufacturing industry, raw materials getting expensive, and having to bootstrap back up our 'proper' manufacturing industries as we can't afford imports.
[8:04] <SpeedEvil> It'll all even out in a century or so.
[8:04] <RITRedbeard> The negative example I give of perception, this is also personal, forgive me... it is my only frame of reference I can speak with certainty.
[8:04] <SpeedEvil> But it can't be held off much more than a generation.
[8:04] <RITRedbeard> Mathematics.
[8:05] <RITRedbeard> "Oh, Math is so hard! Math is so dumb, you'll never need it! Only geniuses understand it!"
[8:05] <SpeedEvil> It depends.
[8:05] <RITRedbeard> Since the third grade, I have been possessed with math-phobia, based on a perception.
[8:05] <SpeedEvil> I did three or so semesters of math at uni.
[8:06] <SpeedEvil> Towards the end I was _really_ struggling. And yet some people just seemed to 'get it'.
[8:06] <SpeedEvil> I'm pretty sure that this wasn't merely the teaching.
[8:06] <SpeedEvil> Some people are better at some subjects.
[8:06] <mpthompson> I think your perception of math could be extended to anything technical these days. I graduated in 1989 with an engineering degree. I've read that is just about the time that the US peaked in producing engineers.
[8:06] <SpeedEvil> But a big part is indeed poor teaching.
[8:07] <RITRedbeard> Teaching, is what I mean.
[8:07] <RITRedbeard> I almost became a chemist.
[8:07] <mpthompson> Today I believe we are lucky if we produce 50% of the engineers that we did in 1990. That isn't an education problem as much as a society problem.
[8:07] <RITRedbeard> I had a very influential Chemistry B teacher.
[8:08] <RITRedbeard> You know, Chemistry for kids who weren't hip and getting AP credits and being critiqued
[8:08] <RITRedbeard> for every pedantic thing
[8:08] <RITRedbeard> It was a pleasure.
[8:08] <mpthompson> I had Star Trek? Don't laugh, I was glued to watching the reruns growing up. I wanted to make those things.
[8:08] <SpeedEvil> mpthompson: I'm amused that the star-trek 'padds' have been used as prior art against apple.
[8:09] <mpthompson> I was involved with PenPoint in the early 90
[8:09] <mpthompson> 's. A lot of that is prior art. Just the Internet thing was missing then.
[8:09] <SpeedEvil> It's barking mad that 'on the internet' patents exist.
[8:10] <SpeedEvil> It's sort of like 'using a protective coloured substance to protect metal from corrosion - on a flying car'
[8:10] <SpeedEvil> being patentable.
[8:11] <mpthompson> Patents. Another whole conversation. Sigh...
[8:11] <SpeedEvil> :/
[8:12] <mpthompson> I have a number of patents, including some that ended up at Microsoft. If you work in the industry, you have to do them otherwise you'll find yourself out of a job.
[8:13] <RITRedbeard> When I interned at IBM/Ricoh for 16 weeks they encouraged patents
[8:13] <SpeedEvil> Oh yes. I'm not saying that companies don't have to do it.
[8:13] <RITRedbeard> they even had patent bounties
[8:13] <RITRedbeard> got a fair bit of compensation
[8:13] <SpeedEvil> It's just that the patent office should _vastly_ crack down harder on obviousness.
[8:14] <SpeedEvil> Being the first to think of a problem area, and spending half an hour thinking about it should never, ever result in a patent.
[8:14] <mpthompson> Yep. The XOR (ie. blinking curosr) patent was the famous example used from my earlier days.
[8:14] <RITRedbeard> Those three horizontal lines intersecting with a longer vertical one, of which the three horizontal lines are parallel to one another but do not intersect
[8:14] <SpeedEvil> (If your thought during that time was reproducible)
[8:14] <RITRedbeard> SpeedEvil.
[8:14] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[8:15] <RITRedbeard> PRIOR ART!
[8:15] <mpthompson> Darn. Trying to get the Debian Perl package compiled. It quits half way through with a compiler abort -- spitting out RTL errors from deep in the bowls of the compiler.
[8:15] <RITRedbeard> from the Norse Edda!
[8:16] <mpthompson> I guess GCC wasn't as well tested compiling for ARMv6+VFP.
[8:16] <RITRedbeard> Like school children.
[8:18] <RITRedbeard> probably not
[8:18] <RITRedbeard> I see the SoC model a crutch for lots of ARM
[8:18] <RITRedbeard> it's not just ARMv6
[8:18] <RITRedbeard> it's ARMv6+VFP+Jazelle
[8:19] <RITRedbeard> In terms of patent office, I could probably make a sound argument using formal logic so that I could hereby patent everything.
[8:19] <RITRedbeard> Everything.
[8:19] <mpthompson> Whatever it is, gcc isn't liking perl right now for me. I guess I'll try the version of perl that's in Sid and see if it compiles any better.
[8:20] <mpthompson> You should work for Jeff Bezos. He would like your thinking.
[8:21] * SpeedEvil ponders patenting 'A device with sensors directly or indirectly sensing one or more of the weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitic force, with a computing element, and actuators driven by the results of the computing element utilising one or more of the aforementioned interactions'
[8:21] <mpthompson> Damn, you patented photons...
[8:22] <SpeedEvil> I think that would cover any concievable computing device with real-world IO.
[8:23] <RITRedbeard> If the basis of a singular patent is the idea and not the mechanism, given an near infinite time frame, I would be able to patent everything.
[8:23] <mpthompson> If you think patents are bad, let's talk about perpetual copyrights. At least patents are for 20 years, copyrights began there, but are now effectively forever.
[8:23] <RITRedbeard> I won't live forever but I can rent the time of others and express this as man-thought-hours.
[8:24] <SpeedEvil> That too.
[8:25] <RITRedbeard> However, since this runs into the problems of conservation of energy in the form of either currency, electric by any means, or bioelectric (Caloric), I have already patented a device that turns light into electricity.
[8:25] <SpeedEvil> I'm just waiting for the Lady Gaga copyright term extension act.
[8:25] <SpeedEvil> err
[8:25] <SpeedEvil> Patent
[8:25] <RITRedbeard> As long as there is a bright enough star in the sky, I can come up with patents.
[8:27] <RITRedbeard> Either (exclusive or) I can steal the monkies in the room writing the collective works of Shakespeare or I can fork a near infinite number of turing machines with infinite length I/O tape
[8:27] <SpeedEvil> Don't let the monkeys into the room with the infinite tape machines :/
[8:28] <mpthompson> Have you read Wolfram's "New Kind of Science"? You are basically describing how he describes the universe. At the lowest level an information processing system.
[8:28] <RITRedbeard> If patents are the process of thought, concept, and perception, I can use drugs to increase the efficiency of patenting.
[8:28] <mpthompson> I think that's been patented.
[8:28] <RITRedbeard> Since most drugs are plant derived, they work on the same system as the solar electric one, but through biological means, namely photosynthesis.
[8:28] <mpthompson> Otherewise Hollywood would be unable to produce the crap they do.
[8:28] <RITRedbeard> Therefore, as long as there is the Sun, I can patent many ideas.
[8:29] <RITRedbeard> and... I have patented all ideas.
[8:29] <RITRedbeard> Logical fallacy somewhere? I patented that concept.
[8:29] <RITRedbeard> mpthompson, do you mean one of the TEDtalks he gives?
[8:30] <mpthompson> I think you are getting punchy... time for bed?
[8:30] <RITRedbeard> the one about wolfram alpha?
[8:31] <mpthompson> No, his book "A New Kind of Science". Basically the book talks about his discoveries about infinite complexity arising out of extremely simple finite state automa rules.
[8:31] <RITRedbeard> Time for psychedelic stimulants. I want to create patents with big-o approaching expotential
[8:31] <mpthompson> I'm sure he's talked abut it at TED though.
[8:31] <RITRedbeard> like Conway's Game Of Life?
[8:32] <RITRedbeard> If all 304... yes, PiBot can make patents take psychedelic stimulants, we might remotely approach factorial
[8:33] <RITRedbeard> very remote
[8:33] <mpthompson> He begins with Game of Life and takes it places places that one would never think about.
[8:33] <RITRedbeard> Not so much punchy, more like Lewis Carrol who has had too much gin.
[8:34] <mpthompson> It's really cool stuff, but I don't think it has gotten any of the traction that he thought his ideas would. It runs too counter to mainstream thinking that is looking towards superstring theory to be the ultimate answer to everything.
[8:35] <RITRedbeard> Everything?
[8:36] <mpthompson> Well, most over everything...
[8:37] <mpthompson> most of everything. (I've had a glass of wine and am I bit woozy myself).
[8:37] <RITRedbeard> I can tell you most certainly there will not be a theory or paradigm that explains everything. Ever.
[8:37] <mpthompson> I suspect your right. It's turtles all the way down...
[8:38] <RITRedbeard> It should be mandatory that smug physicists take all their liberal arts courses as philosophy ones. On epistomology and philosophy of science.
[8:38] <RITRedbeard> Do they even take liberal arts classes?
[8:40] <RITRedbeard> probably movie appreciation or lab safety LA
[8:40] <RITRedbeard> "Don't cross the beams!"
[8:40] <mpthompson> I think you would like Wolfram's book. He doesn't ever say if he feels there is a grand unified theory as physicists sometimes do. It's more that he's observed that there are areas of science that are virtually untouched that may go a long ways to explaining what we observe in nature. Of course, his theories focus around information processing.
[8:40] * Plankalkuel (~paethon@chello213047250034.tirol.surfer.at) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[8:41] <mpthompson> And how at many levels, the universe seems to operate as an information processing system.
[8:42] <RITRedbeard> I probably would enjoy that.
[8:43] <mpthompson> It's definately something that somebody in computer science would appreciate. However, in the end, he may be as myopic as the people he criticizes in his book who are hostile to his ideas. The guy certainly has an ego.
[8:43] <RITRedbeard> But dude... Apple licensed the language parsing algorithm part of wolfram|alpha for Siri! -__________-
[8:45] <RITRedbeard> I like messing with science with philosophy, they go hand in hand.
[8:46] <RITRedbeard> Problem with Theory of Everything is that it shouldn't be convergent solution.
[8:46] <RITRedbeard> The paradigms in which we have used previously to carry out normal science, were they any worse?
[8:46] * farmboy (~quassel@cpc15-cmbg14-2-0-cust146.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:46] * PiBot sets mode +v farmboy
[8:47] <RITRedbeard> Then there is the issue of what is knowledge? A core question of epistemology.
[8:48] <mpthompson> I think therefore I am?
[8:48] <RITRedbeard> If knowledge means knowing the exact intracate workings of all things in reality, then don't you converge on omnipotence?
[8:48] <RITRedbeard> Do you become a deity? A demi-god perhaps?
[8:48] <RITRedbeard> No.
[8:48] <RITRedbeard> That is exstentialism.
[8:49] <RITRedbeard> Also, once you have no puzzles to solve, you shall stop solving puzzles.
[8:49] <RITRedbeard> You have to go back to the original philosophical gangsta
[8:49] <RITRedbeard> layin it down in Athens - Socrates.
[8:50] <mpthompson> A diety would imply we have the capability to exist outside the system? I don't think that is possible.
[8:50] <RITRedbeard> All I know is that I know nothing.
[8:50] <mpthompson> I'll drink to that.
[8:51] <RITRedbeard> Maybe I am annoying as he was. Will you have me drink hemlock to that for being a pest and asking too many goddamn questions?
[8:51] <mpthompson> Sometimes I honestly believe we don't have a fricken clue as to the true nature of the Universe. And if we did, our ego's couldn't handle it.
[8:52] <mpthompson> Well, I'm putting about 20% cycles on what you are saying and about 80% cycles examing why GCC has an internal compiler error in a perl compilaton. :-)
[8:52] <RITRedbeard> You will understand the true nature of the universe when you ascend in nethack 3 times in a row without dying.
[8:52] <mpthompson> LOL!
[8:53] * Plankalkuel (~paethon@chello213047250034.tirol.surfer.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:53] * PiBot sets mode +v Plankalkuel
[8:53] <mpthompson> People are going to look through the IRC logs on RPi and wonder WTF?
[8:54] <RITRedbeard> Well, thinking on it, you were 75% right.
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[8:54] * PiBot sets mode +v androidlackey
[8:55] <mpthompson> Well, that's pretty good considering I also consider myself someone who doesn't know anything (I just can't tell my kids that, but they are cluing in).
[8:55] <RITRedbeard> My limited knowledge of philosophy and thinking back on Rene Descartes, basically, he followed methodological skepticism
[8:55] <mpthompson> Thinking about such things is a luxury. My days are too short.
[8:55] <RITRedbeard> which was totally askew to empiriological thought
[8:56] <RITRedbeard> actually it is probably the most pleasurable philosophy text to read
[8:56] <RITRedbeard> easy read IMHO and light
[8:56] <RITRedbeard> Meditations on First Philosophy
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[8:56] * PiBot sets mode +v smw
[8:57] <RITRedbeard> so Descartes wipes the slate clean claiming that he doesn't know jack shit which as you can understand is extremely frustrating
[8:57] <RITRedbeard> but he goes through in Meditations that the one thing he can be sure of for certain is the idea of cogito ergo sum
[8:57] <mpthompson> I think therefore I am.
[8:58] <RITRedbeard> it's actually a bit painful how he gets there in argument
[8:58] <RITRedbeard> maybe it's better in the original language
[8:58] <RITRedbeard> but this is relevant to my interests because I am naturally curious
[8:58] <RITRedbeard> and this is why we need a Carl Sagan of computing.
[8:59] <mpthompson> I understand. Many, many years ago I read about Descartes and the logic he used. I can't recall it anylonger.
[8:59] <RITRedbeard> he says something along the lines that
[8:59] <RITRedbeard> senses are subjective
[8:59] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[9:00] <RITRedbeard> the formulation of thought is derived from sense and experience
[9:00] <RITRedbeard> but what if there is some trickester deity fooling you into thinking you exist! fooling your senses
[9:00] <RITRedbeard> but he does away with that
[9:00] <mpthompson> Take the red pill?
[9:00] <RITRedbeard> the beauty is the only damn thing he knows from certain, the foundation of his philosophical idea is that he thinks, he is
[9:01] <RITRedbeard> then he goes on to other things... I'm not a goddamn philosophy major
[9:01] <ahven> tru nature universe & gcc? this channel has gone very deep :P
[9:01] <RITRedbeard> but how for instance the definition of a square necessitates the existence of one
[9:01] <RITRedbeard> there are no squares with 3 sides, you'd be goddamn wrong
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[9:02] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher708
[9:02] <RITRedbeard> so then he gets all onothological and is like just like the idea of a square necessitates the existence of one
[9:02] <RITRedbeard> then the idea of God necessitates the existance of one
[9:03] * cypher707 (cypher707@89-181-205-224.net.novis.pt) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[9:03] <RITRedbeard> and this is ontology or the ontological proof of deity
[9:03] <RITRedbeard> good stuff though
[9:04] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:04] * PiBot sets mode +v MrJackson
[9:05] <RITRedbeard> If people showed more modicum of interest on average like I have demonstrated, our computational "behind" might have been an "ahead".
[9:06] <RITRedbeard> But no, still messing with monolithic kernels
[9:06] <RITRedbeard> still doing research into hypervisor states and messing with SIMD architectures
[9:07] <RITRedbeard> and Plan9 is advanced as far as operating systems go
[9:08] <RITRedbeard> but still too weird and will remain in the dark dank dungeons of academia and nerds like ourselves
[9:08] <mpthompson> Or, just trying to get a clean compile of perl with ARMv6+VFP. :-)
[9:10] <RITRedbeard> What are you trying to get perl for, mpthompson? Kind of ambiguous question. Just curious.
[9:11] <mpthompson> Well, I'm recompiling a minimal subset of Debian armhf packages from ARMv7+VFPv3-16+Thumb2 which is incompatible with RPi, to ARMv6+VFP which is RPI compatible.
[9:12] <mpthompson> It's an effort to kickstart a port of Debian that is hart float optimized.
[9:12] <mpthompson> Perl is one of the last problematic packages that I need to get rebuilt before I can accomplish my goal.
[9:13] <RITRedbeard> Isn't Debian one of the few that supports the "older" ARM?
[9:13] <mpthompson> Above, I meant hard float optimized for the RPi.
[9:13] <RITRedbeard> Oooh, interesting.
[9:14] <mpthompson> Yes, Debian armel (targetted at the ARMv5 will run quite well for the RPi) and is the image they released in January.
[9:14] <RITRedbeard> but all softfp?
[9:14] <mpthompson> It's just that significant speed gains could be made (for floating point code) if a Linux distribution was available that used the hard float ABI and compiled to use hard float instructions.
[9:16] <mpthompson> Well, I have about 600 packages now compiled with --with-arch=armv6 and --with-float=hard. This is the best combination for maximum performance on the RPi CPU.
[9:18] <mpthompson> Once I have a working image (which should be in a few days) I hope to have someone with a beta board boot it and run some benchmarks. If things look good, I'll then start to see what help I can get to turn the effort into a real RPi flavored Debian armhf distribution.
[9:19] <mpthompson> Yes, the current Debian is all softfp. And I believe the Fedora port is as well, but I'm not 100% certain on that.
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[9:21] <zgreg> I'd really like to know how useful those strange ARMv6 SIMD instructions are
[9:21] <weasel> debian has two arm ports. armhf, currently only in unstable and testing, is hard float, arm v7.
[9:21] <weasel> armel is arm >= v4tw.
[9:22] <zgreg> ARMv6 has a relatively simple set of integer SIMD instructions
[9:23] <mpthompson> weasel: you are correct about armel. It's getting late for me.
[9:24] <mpthompson> I'm borrowing all the packages I'm rebuilding from Debian Wheezy armhf. The fact I'm riding on the coattails of others is making the task much, much easier for me.
[9:25] <weasel> it's a bit of a shame that armhf won't work on the rpi
[9:26] <mpthompson> What's nice is that I'm doing all my compilations on an ARMv7 armhf system. The binaries I'm producing are 100% compatible with armhf. I just have to make sure that any binaries I produce are free of ARMv7 contamination. I think I have that all worked out now.
[9:27] <mpthompson> Yeah, but they made their decision on that over a year ago. It's not going to change. But, all their work is 99.99% applicable to the RPi with a recompile.
[9:27] <RITRedbeard> just curious
[9:28] <RITRedbeard> I know of OpenCL, CUDA, but these applications be ported where vector mathematics are involved for videocore?
[9:28] <RITRedbeard> in a general way
[9:28] <RITRedbeard> and can you think of use case scenarios
[9:28] <RITRedbeard> assuming we had an API
[9:29] <RITRedbeard> that was well documented for videocore iv
[9:29] <mpthompson> A use case for hard float?
[9:30] <RITRedbeard> I guess I don't understand because I've yet to really study and learn architecture
[9:30] <RITRedbeard> however, using GPU as vector/fp ALU in some cases?
[9:31] <SpeedEvil> GPU in principle can be used for all sorts of signal processing tasks.
[9:31] <RITRedbeard> and when and what applications would these situations would occur that does not involve cryptography (matrix/vector ops) or pornogra-- personal videos?
[9:31] <SpeedEvil> For example, doing software-defined-radio
[9:32] <RITRedbeard> like
[9:32] <RITRedbeard> I know most GPUs have programmable pipeline
[9:32] <mpthompson> Well, for instance, I do a lot of hobby level robotics. Any physics simulations could benefit greatly from floating point acceleration -- such as an RPi trying to dynamically balance a robot.
[9:32] <zgreg> you shouldn't get your hopes up for any type of gpgpu stuff
[9:32] <SpeedEvil> gpgpu is indeed unlikely
[9:33] <SpeedEvil> Trying to dynamically balance a robot is not remotely challenging for pi class CPUs
[9:33] <SpeedEvil> even doing softfloat
[9:33] <SpeedEvil> There are just not that many degrees of freedom.
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[9:35] <RITRedbeard> you mean for balancing robot problem?
[9:35] <mpthompson> I'm just going to the lowest hanging fruit. Taking the efforts of what the Debian folks did with armhf and backporting it to the RPi. To be frank, I would like to see Debian be the leading Linux distribution for the RPi.
[9:35] <RITRedbeard> or for gpgpu?
[9:38] <weasel> I'd just put armel onto it
[9:39] <mpthompson> Armel is already there. Works fine as far as I know.
[9:41] <mpthompson> Anyone know why the RPi Foundation steered towards Fedora given that Debian seems to have a lot more Arm experience and history behind it? My assumption is that it was based on personal relationships with the folks doing the Fedora port, but I could be wrong.
[9:41] <RITRedbeard> I think they got paid (Red Hat) and educational connections
[9:41] <mchou> Fedora for rpi is extremely lame
[9:42] <mchou> especially given fedora's track record of bloat
[9:43] <mchou> just getting rid of poettering's bloat will be challenge enough
[9:43] <mpthompson> I've been working with Arm systems for a few years now as a casual users and I didn't even know Fedora had an Arm port.
[9:44] <mchou> mpthompson: it all goes to show that RP Foundation don't really know what they are doing
[9:44] <mchou> I mean unless RH paid them a bundle or something....
[9:45] <mchou> which I doubt would be the case anyways
[9:45] <mpthompson> mchou, I wouldn't go that far to say they don't know what they are doing. It's probably that there is more to the story than what they post on their website.
[9:46] <mchou> mpthompson: maybe. But fedora on arm is just a disaster in the making
[9:46] <mpthompson> Well, if I can help make it so that Debian is there, waiting in the wings so to say, to catch them when they fall, then I'll be doing a good deed for Debian and RPi.
[9:47] <mpthompson> Besides, I think a hard float flavor of Debian armhf would be of great use to the hobbyist community who want to use the RPi. I don't see them using Fedora unless they really don't have a choice.
[9:48] <haltdef> hardfloat flavor of debian armhf? explain
[9:48] <mpthompson> Although, I'm well tapped into why people use one distribution over another. I choose Debian simply because it's always worked for me.
[9:49] <mchou> hell, I can't even get ferdora to work well on my desktop, never mind embedded
[9:49] <mchou> fedora*
[9:50] <mpthompson> Well, I've taken several hundred Debian armhf packages and am in the process of recompiling them from regular armhh (ARMv7+VFPv3-D16+Thum2) to an RPi friendly armhf (ARMv6+VFP). Basically a proof of concept that benchmarks can be run on.
[9:51] <mpthompson> If it works well, then I can help orgianize efforts to make a proper Debian armhf flavor suitable for the RPi.
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[9:52] <mpthompson> What I'm doing now is a minimal install of Debian with build-essential packages added. Enough to do basic benchmarking, but not much else. Assuming I didn't screw up the build process, I'll make these available to anyone who wants to run tests with them.
[9:54] <weasel> (please also provide the sources when you do. most of the stuff that is linked from is infringing on people's copyright, don't become one of those.)
[9:54] <RITRedbeard> SpeedEvil, architecture wise, GPU has geometry shaders, pixel shaders, texture unit (ROM), frame buffer (WOM), vertex and fragment shader usually programmable pipeline
[9:54] <RITRedbeard> no?
[9:55] * jardiamj (~jardiamj@rdbk.p3-146.molalla.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[9:55] <RITRedbeard> and its own DRAM, assuming it isn't shared
[9:55] <mpthompson> Well, the sources I'm using are the Debian armhf sources -- just the compiler settings have been altered which is done outside the packaged source.
[9:56] <weasel> mpthompson: if you provide the binaries to GPLed stuff you either have to provide the sources, or a written offer, valid for 3 years, to give anybody who asks the sources. usually the former is easier.
[9:56] <SpeedEvil> I don't know specifically about the Pi.
[9:56] <SpeedEvil> And I've basically been ignoring GPUs for the past decade.
[9:56] <SpeedEvil> I'm just at the moment trying to work out what the bare minimum old laptop I need to get to drive a 2560*1600 pixel display
[9:57] <SpeedEvil> Which is annoying
[9:57] <mpthompson> What about binaries to sources that are already freely available. I don't understand the issue?
[9:57] <weasel> (or forward the written offer you received. but you didn't get one from debian, so..)
[9:57] <weasel> mpthompson: the GPL does not care if it's available elsewhere. you provide the binaries, the source you must provide also.
[9:57] <SpeedEvil> I found an amusing loophole.
[9:58] <mpthompson> Is me providing sources a link to where they can be downloaded?
[9:58] <weasel> probably not really. (but it's better than nothing.)
[9:58] <SpeedEvil> If someone else gives you an encrypted filesystem image, with source, to incorporate into your product, which compiles when it arrives at the customer - you never 'distribute' sources
[9:58] <SpeedEvil> err - binaries
[9:58] <weasel> note that the sources on ftp.debian.org will go away when packages get updated.
[9:59] <SpeedEvil> And almost all of the GPL requirements go away.
[9:59] <weasel> not really.
[9:59] <SpeedEvil> Really.
[10:00] <mpthompson> How does Debian get away with distributing their binaries if their sources go away when the packages are updated? I don't understand.
[10:00] <SpeedEvil> You are not distributing binaries, so none of the binary terms come into play at all. It's not even arguable that you have to provide sources in their normal form, or the ability to install these, if you're not distributing binaries.
[10:00] <weasel> mpthompson: we keep sources as long as we keep binaries. when we stop distributing the binary, we remove the source.
[10:03] <mpthompson> weasel: I want/need to understand this. So, if I create an alternate set of binaries from exactly the same sources, I fail to see the problem? The sources are available. How does every other port of Debian handle this? (i.e. the 68K port)?
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[10:04] <weasel> mpthompson: everybody who cares about doing it right provides the sources. it's what's required.
[10:04] * Martix (~martix@4.177.broadband3.iol.cz) Quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
[10:05] <weasel> e.g. on http://ports.debian.net/debian/pool/main/e/eglibc/ if you think about that m68k port.
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[10:06] <haltdef> 2560*1600? you need dual link DVI at least for that, I believe
[10:07] <haltdef> even hdmi versions <1.3 won't do it
[10:07] <haltdef> fun
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[10:07] <SpeedEvil> yes, I know.
[10:08] <pepejose> hello, good morning!
[10:08] <SpeedEvil> I have reports that the version of the laptop I got for it will work if they have the nvidia card - but not with the intel card I have.
[10:08] <haltdef> eying up a 27" 2560x1440 monitor
[10:08] <SpeedEvil> I need to verify the intel card can't do it - it'll drive it at quarter res.
[10:09] <haltdef> only ever owned 1080p TN, should blow me away
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> This is my first monitor upgrade for a _long_ time
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> I'm now on a 5yo 1400x1050 display
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> 6?
[10:09] <mpthompson> weasel: Are you connected with Debian? You say 'we' so can I assume you are?
[10:10] <weasel> mpthompson: yes, but I'm just speaking for myself.
[10:10] <SpeedEvil> (second-hand LG monitor from ebay)
[10:11] <haltdef> funky res
[10:11] <haltdef> you getting a 30" beast or something?
[10:12] <mpthompson> That's fine. I would like to figure out how to get Debian interested in supporting the RPi better. I have no connection to Debian other than a very satisfied user of the distribution for a number of years now.
[10:12] <SpeedEvil> I have - but it only works at 1280x800
[10:12] <SpeedEvil> Which is a bit dissapointing.
[10:12] <SpeedEvil> Got it cheap from ebay
[10:12] <SpeedEvil> So I now need to work out what the cheapest upgrade for me is.
[10:12] <haltdef> faulty monitor or graphics card holding you back?
[10:12] <weasel> mpthompson: lots of debian channels on oftc.
[10:12] <SpeedEvil> haltdef: Graphics card.
[10:12] <mpthompson> oftc?
[10:13] <weasel> irc.oftc.net
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> haltdef: I assume - I guess it's very unlikely that the monitor fails at high res.
[10:13] <mpthompson> OK, I'll have to start hanging out there.
[10:16] <haltdef> that's a strange res to max out at
[10:16] <mpthompson> weasel, I used 'approx' to cache all my access to the Debian sources. Looking through the cache, I see I have every source file I pulled down from Debian. If I give the binaries to someone I can just offer to give them a DVD of the sources as well.
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> haltdef: It's half the panel res
[10:16] <weasel> mpthompson: yes. you have to keep the sources for 3 years however.
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> haltdef: I aslo haven't tried it with a sensible OS. This is the max that windows vista buisness will attempt to drive it at.
[10:17] <weasel> mpthompson: usually it's easier to just offer the source at the same place as the binaries. most people won't care, but some might.
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> haltdef: I am unsure I want to pull windows off, as I'm contemplating ebaying it.
[10:17] <haltdef> livecd perhaps
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> haltdef: I need to get the energy up to do that, yes.
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> Just pointlessly tired for the last week, for no good reason.
[10:18] <RITRedbeard> is the qemu image of debian for pi still around?
[10:20] <RITRedbeard> and is it optimal?
[10:20] <mpthompson> I see. Obviously I'll need to read the licenses more to understand my obligations.
[10:21] <RITRedbeard> lol
[10:21] <RITRedbeard> http://mirrors.rit.edu/rpi/
[10:21] <RITRedbeard> my scchool has debian 6 image for rpi!
[10:21] <RITRedbeard> yay
[10:22] <mpthompson> weasel, btw, did the foundation make it's sources available for the RPi when they created their release in January? If so, I don't see a link to any sources. For any version of linux they make available.
[10:22] <weasel> mpthompson: no, they are in violation of licenses and/or infringing copyrights AIUI.
[10:22] <RITRedbeard> mpthompson, sources for?
[10:23] <SpeedEvil> All of the GPL software that was used in the image, for one
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[10:24] <mpthompson> RITRedbeard, sources for the binaries they released of the various flavors of Linux -- Debian in particular.
[10:24] <RITRedbeard> Debian has GPL software in it?
[10:25] <weasel> sometimes we ship a linux kernel, for instance.
[10:25] <weasel> more often a glibc
[10:27] <mpthompson> weasel, their download is Debian squeeze. Presumabley the armel binaries compiled by Debian. So they are not able to redistribute just the binaries they thay didn't create without providing source? Even thoug the source is available from Debian?
[10:27] <weasel> no. they need to provide the source, even if they just aggregate or even just mirror the binaries.
[10:28] <RITRedbeard> mpthompson, not sure if you're looking to gain insight on how to use armhf with packages not bundled with the Debian image
[10:28] <RITRedbeard> this might be of some interest: http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/592
[10:28] <mpthompson> weasel, I honestly wasn't aware of that? Are they aware of that? That has to be one of the most violated aspects of copyrights I can think of then.
[10:29] <RITRedbeard> Well, they sent the boards back to China twice so far due to incompetence and mistakes.
[10:29] <weasel> mpthompson: well, I sent them an email. either they didn't read it, or they just don't care.
[10:29] <RITRedbeard> For whatever it is worth.
[10:29] <weasel> makes them appear incompetent at best, evil at worst
[10:29] <mchou> RITRedbeard: twice? what was the 2nd time for?
[10:29] <RITRedbeard> CE
[10:30] * smw (~smw@unaffiliated/smw) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[10:30] <mchou> RITRedbeard: wow. I thought CE was supposed to be done in EU
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[10:30] <RITRedbeard> Beats me.
[10:30] <RITRedbeard> All I know is they're retarded.
[10:30] <RITRedbeard> In the non-politically correct fashion.
[10:31] <mchou> RITRedbeard: why does CE need to be done on the whole shipment anyways
[10:31] <mchou> you just need a representative sample
[10:31] <RITRedbeard> CYA for Farnell and Element14
[10:31] <mpthompson> RITReadbeard, thanks for the link. I'm not really concerned myself with the non-free software aspects at all. Not sure how to handle that and it's outside my immediate goals.
[10:31] <weasel> mpthompson: it probably is one of the more violated aspects of the GPL. but I don't think it's too much to ask of a foundation that intents to ship such devices to get this right.
[10:32] <weasel> mpthompson: free software people went to court against all kinds of router and other embedded devices manufacturers. I don't see why raspberry pi should get away with it
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[10:32] <mchou> weasel: did people really go to court, or did they just get letters from lawyers?
[10:32] <mpthompson> weasel: I understand. I'll educate myself more as to my obligations.
[10:33] <weasel> mchou: google for gpl violations
[10:33] <mchou> weasel: I'm not so sure your info is correct
[10:33] <mchou> weasel: I don't think anybody has been sued. they've all settled well bfore going to court
[10:34] <weasel> I think you are mistaken.
[10:34] <mchou> weasel: you're welcome to prove me wrong
[10:34] <weasel> http://www.jbb.de/judgment_dc_frankfurt_gpl.pdf
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[10:35] <weasel> linked from gpl violations, that I just mentioned before.
[10:35] <RITRedbeard> weasel, wouldn't broadcom legal see this from miles away?
[10:35] <mpthompson> weasel: I would think the foundation probably believes the sources are available to squeze -- just get them from Debian. Whether that is a correct assumption on their part is another matter.
[10:35] <weasel> you'd think so
[10:35] * SpeedEvil looks at his two broadcom devices which are GPL violators.
[10:36] <weasel> are they still?
[10:36] <SpeedEvil> I don't know off-hand if they've gotten better.
[10:36] <SpeedEvil> weasel: yes.
[10:36] <weasel> somebody should go after them :)
[10:36] <des2> Please let them ship the first 10,000 PIs before the lawsuits....
[10:37] <weasel> des2: I'd rather rpi fix their stuff :)
[10:37] <weasel> it's not Hard.
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> weasel: In that there are no sources for the devices - though they are out of manufacture. (and they are not actually badged broadcom)
[10:39] <mpthompson> weasel: I found the following link: http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/legal I'll read more about it so that I start off on the right foot with regards to Debian. No sense blowing it from the beginning if it's just a matter of keeping track of sources and making them available if requested.
[10:40] <mchou> weasel: have you read that judgement?
[10:40] <mchou> weasel: they sued to recover lawyers' cost for issuing a cease and desist letter
[10:41] <mchou> weasel: and monsoon did put code up....
[10:42] <mchou> weasel: which means monsoon did the right thing after they got the cease and desist letter.
[10:43] <mchou> weasel: so recovery of fees hardly means "they went to court based on some fight regarding GPL"
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[10:44] <mchou> weasel: please also point out where GPL has a requirement that the code be available for 3 years
[10:45] <weasel> 3, option b
[10:45] <weasel> (gpl2)
[10:46] <mchou> yes, that's ONE of many ways, but not the ONLY way
[10:46] <weasel> as I always stated.
[10:47] <weasel> the other option is to distribute source with the binary. he does not have option c, since he didn't get his stuff under b.
[10:51] <mpthompson> weasel: thanks for the information. I honestly didn't even think about my obligations under GPL as I was just redistributing things I had freely obtained. I'll follow the copyrights.
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[10:54] <no-name-> so when's the 2nd batch due? has it sold out yet?
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> There is no information as to the size or date the new batch wil be due.
[10:55] <no-name-> hmm. I'm surprised.
[10:58] <mchou> RITRedbeard: you know what the import duties are for RPI?
[10:58] <RITRedbeard> ehhh too much
[10:58] <RITRedbeard> not off the top of my head
[10:58] <RITRedbeard> but
[10:58] <RITRedbeard> dunno
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> If you're in the EU - 0
[10:58] <mchou> RITRedbeard: given how many times they've shipped to China RPF must be losing serious money
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> You don't pay duty on parts for repair
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[11:00] <mchou> SpeedEvil: there are plenty of exceptions. I've had musical instruments repaired that cost plenty in customs brokerage fees
[11:00] <SpeedEvil> In principle.
[11:00] <SpeedEvil> In practice, it doesn't always work.
[11:00] <mchou> even though there is officially no import duty on repairs
[11:01] <mchou> I'm not sure new requirements qualify as "repairs" anyways
[11:02] <mchou> CE being a new requirement
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[11:04] <mchou> with all the new additional requirements I'm almost certain they are losing money
[11:04] <mchou> razor thin margins now negative
[11:04] <SpeedEvil> CE will not require new shipments.
[11:05] <SpeedEvil> Repairs due to CE requirements not being met may
[11:06] <mchou> SpeedEvil: RITRedbeard mentioned that RPI was shipped back to China 2x
[11:06] <mchou> 1st fr ethernet jack, 2nd for CE
[11:06] <mchou> for*
[11:06] <mchou> SpeedEvil: you saying the 2nd didn't happen as RITRedbeard mentioned?
[11:07] <no-name-> how many units were sent back to China twice?
[11:07] <SpeedEvil> I'm saying that there was no sensible reason for it to be shipped back to china.
[11:07] <mchou> no-name-: that's what I'm trying to find out
[11:07] <SpeedEvil> CE marks can be - if required - affixed in the EU - if you have the appropriate paperwork proving it qualifies.
[11:07] <mchou> no-name-: why does CE cert need to be shipped back to China at all?
[11:08] <no-name-> I wasn't suggesting it does
[11:08] <mchou> no-name-: CCE certs could have been done locally....
[11:08] <SpeedEvil> And you can test samples of the product - you certainy don't need to test every one.
[11:08] <mchou> no-name-: I mean in the UK
[11:08] <SpeedEvil> Simply a representative board.
[11:09] <no-name-> mmm
[11:09] <mchou> SpeedEvil: that's what I said earlier, try to keep up
[11:09] * Space_Man (~space_man@ has joined #raspberrypi
[11:09] * PiBot sets mode +v Space_Man
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> mchou: I'm mostly asleep.
[11:10] * eyveer (~eyveer@ip-37-85.zax.pl) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:10] * PiBot sets mode +v eyveer
[11:26] * Space_Man (~space_man@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[11:28] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:28] * PiBot sets mode +v wiiguy
[11:29] * Netlynx (~jan@lugwv/member/Netlynx) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:29] * PiBot sets mode +v Netlynx
[11:31] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:31] * PiBot sets mode +v LWK_mac
[11:33] * relm (~relm@p57A06767.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[11:35] * techman2 (79d18187@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[11:35] * PiBot sets mode +v techman2
[11:35] * MystX (~MystX@49-50-247-177.a.hd.net.nz) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[11:36] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[11:39] * Gallomimia (~Gallo@S0106602ad08026fc.ca.shawcable.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:39] * PiBot sets mode +v Gallomimia
[11:39] * BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:39] * PiBot sets mode +v BCMM
[11:43] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:43] * PiBot sets mode +v mdavey
[11:48] * MrWatson (~MrW@ has joined #raspberrypi
[11:48] * PiBot sets mode +v MrWatson
[11:49] <RITRedbeard> no qemu for arm for windows?
[11:49] <RITRedbeard> seriously?
[11:50] <WASDx> hehe
[11:56] <RITRedbeard> I LIED
[11:57] * jamesq (~jamesq@ Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[12:00] <tntexplosivesltd> yay
[12:00] <tntexplosivesltd> windoze can get fucked
[12:04] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@232-223.dsl.iskon.hr) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:04] * PiBot sets mode +v Delboy_
[12:05] * jardiamj (~jardiamj@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[12:05] * techman2 (79d18187@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[12:05] * warddr (~warddr@Wikipedia/Warddr) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:05] * PiBot sets mode +v warddr
[12:09] * stevepdp (~stevepdp@027986b4.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:09] * stevepdp (~stevepdp@027986b4.bb.sky.com) Quit (Changing host)
[12:09] * stevepdp (~stevepdp@fsf/member/stevepdp) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:09] * PiBot sets mode +v stevepdp
[12:09] * PiBot sets mode +v stevepdp
[12:13] * matthiasb (~matthias@93-82-34-6.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:13] * PiBot sets mode +v matthiasb
[12:14] <RITRedbeard> tntexplosivesltd, you wanna start somethin
[12:14] <RITRedbeard> nah
[12:14] <RITRedbeard> my linux machine is down
[12:14] <RITRedbeard> for the count
[12:15] * cypher707 (cypher707@ has joined #raspberrypi
[12:15] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher707
[12:17] * cypher708 (cypher707@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[12:18] * BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) Quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
[12:19] * NIN101 (~NIN@ has joined #raspberrypi
[12:19] * PiBot sets mode +v NIN101
[12:20] * katnegermis (~katnegerm@ip2.c648.frb194.cust.comxnet.dk) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:20] * PiBot sets mode +v katnegermis
[12:20] <tntexplosivesltd> RITRedbeard: PEBKAC
[12:33] <tntexplosivesltd> I see...
[12:33] <tntexplosivesltd> have you trued rebooting?
[12:36] * chod (~chod@toy-town.demon.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:36] * PiBot sets mode +v chod
[12:40] <RITRedbeard> tntexplosivesltd, :|
[12:41] <tntexplosivesltd> bluescreen 116
[12:42] <RITRedbeard> I'm actually parting out my desktop
[12:42] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@232-223.dsl.iskon.hr) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[12:42] <RITRedbeard> this lappy can't be linux because of nvidia optimus
[12:43] <RITRedbeard> interesting though I have qemu working now
[12:43] <RITRedbeard> I can write stuff for pi without having it
[12:43] <RITRedbeard> codeception
[12:43] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@173-69.dsl.iskon.hr) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:43] * PiBot sets mode +v Delboy_
[12:43] * MrWatson (~MrW@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:00] -JonathanD- Attention freenode users, we are adopting a new privacy policy on April 15th and it is important that all users review it before that time. See http://freenode.net/privacy_change.html for the new policy. Thanks for using freenode!
[13:03] * |uen| is now known as uen
[13:09] <tntexplosivesltd> what's wrong with optimus?
[13:09] <tntexplosivesltd> friend of mine runs it fine
[13:17] * matthias07 (~matthias@93-82-34-26.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:17] * PiBot sets mode +v matthias07
[13:19] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5aca5627.bb.sky.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:19] * PiBot sets mode +v ReggieUK
[13:20] * matthiasb (~matthias@93-82-34-6.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[13:21] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@173-69.dsl.iskon.hr) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[13:26] * cypher708 (cypher707@89-181-195-14.net.novis.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:26] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher708
[13:28] * cypher707 (cypher707@ Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[13:28] * ShiftPlusOne2 (~shift@unaffiliated/shiftplusone) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:28] * PiBot sets mode +v ShiftPlusOne2
[13:30] * ShiftPlusOne (~shift@unaffiliated/shiftplusone) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[13:30] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:30] * PiBot sets mode +v chris_99
[13:30] * whyz (~e@h145n7-n-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[13:32] * netcarver (~netcarver@ has joined #raspberrypi
[13:32] * PiBot sets mode +v netcarver
[13:32] * mchou (~quassel@unaffiliated/mchou) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:42] * netcarver (~netcarver@ has left #raspberrypi
[13:44] * kcj (~casey@unaffiliated/kcj1993) Quit (Quit: Procrast...)
[13:44] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[13:46] * matthias07 is now known as matthiasb
[13:54] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-223-213.dsl.scarlet.be) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[13:55] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-223-213.dsl.scarlet.be) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:55] * PiBot sets mode +v khildin
[14:08] <tntexplosivesltd> Time to move hosts, freenode are being anti-free speech
[14:08] <tntexplosivesltd> http://blog.freenode.net/2012/04/network-wide-policy-privacy-change/
[14:10] <CuriosTiger> tntexplosivesltd: Heh, you fell for it.
[14:10] <CuriosTiger> Look at the date.
[14:13] <chris_99> haha
[14:19] * piless (561ec4a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[14:19] * PiBot sets mode +v piless
[14:20] * katnegermis (~katnegerm@ip2.c648.frb194.cust.comxnet.dk) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[14:20] * katnegermis_ (~katnegerm@ip2.c648.frb194.cust.comxnet.dk) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:20] * PiBot sets mode +v katnegermis_
[14:20] <piless> is it out yet?
[14:20] * markit (~marco@88-149-177-66.staticnet.ngi.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:20] * PiBot sets mode +v markit
[14:24] * cypher708 (cypher707@89-181-195-14.net.novis.pt) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[14:24] * cypher707 (cypher707@89-181-195-174.net.novis.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:24] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher707
[14:26] * Hopsy (~Hopsy@unaffiliated/hopsy) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:26] * PiBot sets mode +v Hopsy
[14:28] <tntexplosivesltd> CuriosTiger: look at the date
[14:28] <tntexplosivesltd> did a double on you
[14:28] <tntexplosivesltd> haaaaahahahaaha
[14:29] <CuriosTiger> tntexplosivesltd: I already pointed the date out to you.
[14:29] <tntexplosivesltd> aww you guys are too perceptive
[14:29] <Hopsy> can I use javascript as proxy?
[14:29] <piless> Hopsy: No
[14:29] <Hopsy> for flash
[14:29] <tntexplosivesltd> proxies are bad
[14:29] <tntexplosivesltd> don't use them
[14:29] <Hopsy> why not :(
[14:29] <piless> Hopsy: Javascript is client side, there's no possible way to use it as a proxy
[14:29] <Hopsy> I want to see couple of http headers
[14:30] <tntexplosivesltd> use a packet sniffer...?
[14:30] <tntexplosivesltd> wireshark is a good start
[14:30] <piless> Buy a dog
[14:30] <Hopsy> but I want to filter and go to the responding page tntexplosivesltd
[14:30] <tntexplosivesltd> so...?
[14:30] <Hopsy> thats to much work
[14:30] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't see your problem
[14:31] <Hopsy> and I am not so fast
[14:31] <tntexplosivesltd> hmm?
[14:31] <wej> there are extensions for just that for firefox
[14:31] <wej> no need to reinvent the wheel
[14:31] <piless> and chrome
[14:31] <Hopsy> I already use it
[14:31] <Hopsy> tamperdata
[14:31] <tntexplosivesltd> piless: lol, chrome
[14:31] <tntexplosivesltd> "extension"
[14:31] <piless> tntexplosivesltd: chrome > chromium > firefox > everything else
[14:32] * tntexplosivesltd looks at the date
[14:32] <tntexplosivesltd> well actually it's the 2nd here now
[14:32] <piless> tntexplosivesltd: Giving extensions such blatent permissions like they do in firefox just leads to massive amount of bloat due to poor coding practises
[14:32] <tntexplosivesltd> also, we just went back an hour today
[14:32] <tntexplosivesltd> on the first of april...
[14:33] <tntexplosivesltd> a bit unsure of the time all day...
[14:33] <piless> http://time.is/ is amazing
[14:33] <tntexplosivesltd> ,,,
[14:33] <tntexplosivesltd> ...
[14:33] <tntexplosivesltd> ntp did that years ago
[14:34] <piless> tntexplosivesltd: Err, this isn't a standards organisation.. it's just a website that tells you the time.
[14:35] <piless> And you wanted to know what the time was.
[14:35] <tntexplosivesltd> no...?
[14:35] <tntexplosivesltd> no...?I was just making a point
[14:35] <piless> <+tntexplosivesltd> a bit unsure of the time all day...
[14:36] <tntexplosivesltd> if I have access to the internet I have access to the time for a start
[14:36] <tntexplosivesltd> hence the point about NTP
[14:37] <piless> You sure you had a point?
[14:38] * cypher708 (cypher707@89-181-195-223.net.novis.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:38] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher708
[14:39] * phantoxe (~destroy@a95-92-89-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:39] * PiBot sets mode +v phantoxe
[14:39] * victhor__ (~victhor@ has joined #raspberrypi
[14:39] * PiBot sets mode +v victhor__
[14:40] <tntexplosivesltd> piless: the point was that the whole daylight savings thing today for us could have been an april fool's day thing
[14:40] <tntexplosivesltd> it would have been so cruel too
[14:41] * cypher707 (cypher707@89-181-195-174.net.novis.pt) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[14:42] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@173-69.dsl.iskon.hr) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:42] * PiBot sets mode +v Delboy_
[14:44] <zgreg> finally, I got my pi today \o/
[14:44] * Axman6 senses some foolin' going on here
[14:48] <tntexplosivesltd> it's the second, all attempts are in vain
[14:49] <tntexplosivesltd> 12:47am, Monday 2nd April 2012
[14:50] <tntexplosivesltd> piless: 00:33 <+piless> tntexplosivesltd: Err, this isn't a standards organisation..
[14:50] <tntexplosivesltd> that makes no sense
[14:50] <tntexplosivesltd> NTP isn't a standards organisation
[14:51] <tntexplosivesltd> it's an network (and by extension internet) protocol
[14:51] <tntexplosivesltd> * a
[14:53] <RITRedbeard> ugh
[14:53] <RITRedbeard> why has there been a paradigm shift in linux land
[14:53] <RITRedbeard> everything is automated. badly
[14:54] <tntexplosivesltd> it's because of users
[14:54] <tntexplosivesltd> but really NTP is damn useful
[14:54] <tntexplosivesltd> I know what you mean though
[14:54] <RITRedbeard> I just spent an hour looking for xorg.conf
[14:54] <tntexplosivesltd> blame the likes of ubuntu
[14:54] <RITRedbeard> and the raspberry pi keyboard default layout is UK
[14:54] <tntexplosivesltd> oh god
[14:54] <RITRedbeard> so I have no idea what my pipe is
[14:55] <RITRedbeard> all my keys are fucked
[14:55] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[14:55] * no-name- (~no-name@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[14:55] <RITRedbeard> and you would think UK and US keyboards would be similar, no?
[14:55] * area (~area@adr34.clare.cam.ac.uk) Quit (Read error: No route to host)
[14:55] <tntexplosivesltd> I thought the UK one is all euro
[14:55] <Gallomimia> the us button doesn't have a "cherio!" button
[14:55] <Gallomimia> keyboard
[14:56] <chris_99> there isn't a euro on a uk keyboard
[14:56] <RITRedbeard> also what the shit is this
[14:59] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[15:01] <RITRedbeard> $vim
[15:01] <RITRedbeard> bash: vim: command not found
[15:01] <RITRedbeard> $ls /usr/bin/vim ; ls /bin/vim
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> ls: cannot access /usr/bin/vim: no such file or directory
[15:02] * hamitron (~hamitron@just.screw-the.eu) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:02] * PiBot sets mode +v hamitron
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> ls: cannot access /bin/vim: no such file or directory
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> $which vim
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> $
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> $which vi
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> /usr/bin/vi
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> $vi
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> VERSION 7.2.445!
[15:02] <RITRedbeard> uhhh huh?
[15:03] <RITRedbeard> :q
[15:03] <RITRedbeard> $cd ~ ; cat .bashrc
[15:03] <RITRedbeard> cat: .bashrc: No such file or directory
[15:03] <RITRedbeard> ????????????????????????????????????
[15:03] <RITRedbeard> $cat .profile
[15:04] <RITRedbeard> cat: .profile: No such file or directory
[15:04] * RITRedbeard blinks.
[15:04] <WASDx> there may be a .bash_profile
[15:04] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:04] * PiBot sets mode +v MrJackson
[15:04] <WASDx> check that you're running bash to begin with
[15:05] <WASDx> do you just have $ as prompt?
[15:05] <RITRedbeard> ls -a shows no .bash_profile, .profile, .bashrc
[15:05] <RITRedbeard> and the vim thing...
[15:05] <RITRedbeard> why would you manually name vi to vim?
[15:05] <RITRedbeard> but not link or alias to vim?
[15:05] <WASDx> I've encountered that too I think
[15:05] <WASDx> vi being vim
[15:06] <RITRedbeard> you fucking brits are weird
[15:06] <WASDx> so this is the debian pi distro?
[15:06] <RITRedbeard> with your funky ass keyboard layouts and ruining of posix traditions
[15:06] <RITRedbeard> $uname -a
[15:06] <piless> you fucking americans are weird
[15:06] <piless> the UK layout is superior
[15:06] <RITRedbeard> Linux raspberrypi 3.1.9 #2 Sat Feb 18 12:14:02 ICT 2012 armv6l GNU/Linux
[15:06] <RITRedbeard> bullshit
[15:07] <RITRedbeard> GNU/Linux my ass.
[15:07] <WASDx> swedish layout is superior. you don't even have ?????? on the keyboard
[15:07] * cypher707 (cypher707@ has joined #raspberrypi
[15:07] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher707
[15:07] <RITRedbeard> this isn't even linux
[15:07] <piless> WASDx: Yeah, but you don't have a thorn key on yours.
[15:07] <hamitron> the English language is superior.... because it doesn't need ???
[15:07] <RITRedbeard> this is a disgrace
[15:07] <hamitron> ;)
[15:08] <RITRedbeard> I am going to jump the shark and start using Plan9
[15:08] <RITRedbeard> goodbye you fruits!
[15:08] <piless> Good riddance.. why did he feel and need to spam all that?
[15:08] * cypher708 (cypher707@89-181-195-223.net.novis.pt) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[15:09] <RITRedbeard> because this is so retarded
[15:09] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[15:09] <RITRedbeard> seriously no xorg.conf?
[15:09] <WASDx> for my it's in /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[15:09] <WASDx> but i'm not using the rpi vm
[15:09] <RITRedbeard> if you do gtf
[15:09] <RITRedbeard> don't
[15:09] <RITRedbeard> DON'T
[15:09] <RITRedbeard> I would rather use OLPC
[15:10] <hamitron> the lack of xorg.conf in newer setups really annoys me actually
[15:10] * katnegermis_ (~katnegerm@ip2.c648.frb194.cust.comxnet.dk) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[15:10] <hamitron> :)
[15:10] <RITRedbeard> $vi(tab autocomplete)
[15:10] <RITRedbeard> vi
[15:10] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:10] * PiBot sets mode +v chris_99
[15:10] <WASDx> RITRedbeard: you got the debian distro i suppose?
[15:10] <RITRedbeard> vim.tiny
[15:10] <RITRedbeard> view? what the fuck is view?
[15:10] <WASDx> man view
[15:11] <RITRedbeard> $whatis view
[15:11] <hamitron> WASDx, best answer
[15:11] <hamitron> :D
[15:11] <WASDx> :D
[15:11] <RITRedbeard> view (1) - Vi IMproved, a programmers text editor
[15:11] <RITRedbeard> $
[15:11] <RITRedbeard> O_______________________________O
[15:11] <RITRedbeard> but hey
[15:11] <RITRedbeard> no alias to vim, no hard, soft link
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> actually no vi either!
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> just renamed the binary!
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> LOLOLLOOLOL
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> yes
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> this is the debian build
[15:12] <hamitron> PEBKAC too
[15:12] <hamitron> ;/
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> I expect the Fedora one to wipe your ass.
[15:12] <WASDx> my "whatis" seems broken
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> whence
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> which
[15:12] <WASDx> yeah which works
[15:12] <RITRedbeard> where
[15:14] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:14] * PiBot sets mode +v IT_Sean
[15:14] <RITRedbeard> so much crap is different
[15:14] <RITRedbeard> initd isn't where it normally is
[15:14] <piless> is it out yet?
[15:14] <RITRedbeard> 24 more months
[15:15] <RITRedbeard> because
[15:15] <RITRedbeard> this tiny silk screen denoting capacitor C7 is missing
[15:15] <zgreg> the fedora build is odd
[15:15] <WASDx> I have bound ctrl-alt-delete to "urxvt -e htop"
[15:15] <tntexplosivesltd> 1) .bashrc is user-specific
[15:15] <RITRedbeard> and it could be a ~safety~ hazard
[15:15] <zgreg> apparently it's quite buggy
[15:16] <zgreg> and the fedora release it's based on is *not supported anymore*!
[15:16] <tntexplosivesltd> I never have a .bashrc on a fresh arch install
[15:16] <WASDx> tntexplosivesltd: I recall it's there
[15:16] <zgreg> that alone seems to be a pretty bad idea
[15:16] <tntexplosivesltd> WASDx: on a fresh arch?
[15:16] <zgreg> and debian seems to be a better fit for a stable platform, which the official linux build should be
[15:16] <tntexplosivesltd> not that I can remember
[15:16] <RITRedbeard> golden archs?
[15:16] <WASDx> tntexplosivesltd: I think so, how would you otherwise get $PS1 ?
[15:17] <tntexplosivesltd> /etc/bash.bashrc
[15:17] <tntexplosivesltd> the main bashrc
[15:17] <tntexplosivesltd> not the user-specific
[15:17] <RITRedbeard> that's fine
[15:17] <RITRedbeard> if the user doesn't have one in his home
[15:17] <tntexplosivesltd> yeah
[15:17] <RITRedbeard> or /usr/shared
[15:17] <WASDx> tntexplosivesltd: I see
[15:17] <RITRedbeard> but seriously?
[15:17] <RITRedbeard> this has been pansified
[15:18] <tntexplosivesltd> I have seen the vi bs on ubuntu before
[15:18] <RITRedbeard> also if anyone ever calls vim "view", they're getting thrown into a pond
[15:18] <RITRedbeard> yeah
[15:18] <Dagger2> zgreg: at least the Fedora distro has audio, bluetooth and WLAN support though
[15:18] <tntexplosivesltd> but saying it's not linux is wrong. vim isn't part of linux
[15:18] <RITRedbeard> typical alias is to set vi to really be vim
[15:18] <RITRedbeard> awww yeaaaaaah you're a gangsta
[15:18] <RITRedbeard> try :set nocompatible
[15:19] <RITRedbeard> typical and understandable, fine
[15:19] <zgreg> Dagger2: wifi and bluetooth?
[15:19] <zgreg> Dagger2: there's none of that on the pi
[15:19] <RITRedbeard> I dunno, when you start violating spoken and set standards like FHS and then unspoken standards that are decades old
[15:19] <RITRedbeard> older than I am
[15:19] <Dagger2> zgreg: it has USB ports
[15:19] <RITRedbeard> and the literature is not up to date
[15:20] <zgreg> Dagger2: sure, and there's nothing "special" needed to make wifi or bluetooth dongles work
[15:20] <RITRedbeard> electrons
[15:20] <piless> can you get bluetooth/wifi combo dongles?
[15:20] <Dagger2> zgreg: you need kernel support for wifi and bluetooth for them to work
[15:21] <tntexplosivesltd> RITRedbeard: use a better distro
[15:21] <RITRedbeard> they both operate on dif frequency/DBi/mW classes
[15:21] <RITRedbeard> yeah I guess I'll have to just LFS
[15:21] <tntexplosivesltd> sounds like they borked debian
[15:21] <zgreg> if that is missing it's pretty stupid, but only a kernel recompile away
[15:21] <RITRedbeard> this is supposed to be debian
[15:21] <RITRedbeard> for armv6
[15:21] <tntexplosivesltd> I reckon arch will be fine on it
[15:21] <RITRedbeard> more like linux for complete pussies
[15:21] <tntexplosivesltd> I use it on the z2 without problems
[15:23] <Dagger2> zgreg: true, although I think that expecting everybody to recompile the kernel to get anything done is a bit much, especially when the alternative is easy to do
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[15:23] <zgreg> Dagger2: yeah, that's right
[15:24] <zgreg> of course the distribution needs to ship in a configuration that makes sense, but the point is that debian is better suited for the pi than fedora
[15:24] <tntexplosivesltd> how?
[15:25] <RITRedbeard> beats the shit outta me
[15:25] <tntexplosivesltd> fedora is better in that you install what you want
[15:25] <RITRedbeard> does Fedora break FHS too?
[15:25] <piless> you're all wrong. win ce blows both of them out of the water
[15:25] <zgreg> tntexplosivesltd: what stops you from doing that on debian?
[15:26] <tntexplosivesltd> zgreg: the fact that it comes with a lot of stuff you don't want/need
[15:26] <tntexplosivesltd> that's more what I meant
[15:26] <RITRedbeard> /home/user/John_Doe/Documents%and%Settings/
[15:26] <RITRedbeard> --- roaming/
[15:26] <RITRedbeard> ---- local/
[15:26] <tntexplosivesltd> fedora at least is more barebones
[15:26] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[15:26] <RITRedbeard> ------ localrow/
[15:27] <RITRedbeard> jesus h christ
[15:27] <zgreg> I don't understand how that is an issue with debian or fedora, it all depend on the software selection the "remixes" ship with...
[15:27] <Dagger2> tntexplosivesltd: e.g.? the base install is pretty bare... and if you install something like the Desktop task in the installer, that's your fault, not Debian's
[15:28] <RITRedbeard> the point of FHS is that it is a standard and that which is not apart of official FHS is unspoken standards
[15:28] <RITRedbeard> usually several ways exist
[15:28] <RITRedbeard> that's fine
[15:28] <RITRedbeard> now initd is in some other place and essentially just configures everything for you
[15:28] <tntexplosivesltd> Dagger2: keep thinking of plebian
[15:29] <tntexplosivesltd> you're right than remix is probably pretty barebones
[15:29] <RITRedbeard> you don't even have to think about xorg.conf
[15:29] <Dagger2> # apt-cache show plebian
[15:29] <Dagger2> N: Unable to locate package plebian
[15:29] <RITRedbeard> except when you're stuck at 640x480 @ 60 hz
[15:29] <Dagger2> ok, so it's not that. anything else you think it shouldn't install in base?
[15:29] <tntexplosivesltd> Dagger2: nit a package ;-)
[15:29] <tntexplosivesltd> * not
[15:30] <RITRedbeard> as kernel module or just software packages?
[15:30] <Dagger2> so it's not installed then, and thus irrelevant to your "Debian installs too much" complaint?
[15:30] <RITRedbeard> if the latter, how about we drop this perl shit
[15:31] <tntexplosivesltd> plebian is what I call normal debian
[15:31] <tntexplosivesltd> sorry, user debian
[15:31] * Triamis (~Mikoto@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[15:31] <zgreg> I don't understand why it's so problematic to have a few additional packages installed anyway
[15:31] <zgreg> disk (SD) space is cheap and there's plenty of it
[15:32] <RITRedbeard> Blame Canonical.
[15:32] <tntexplosivesltd> zgreg: it's people like you...
[15:32] <Dagger2> what's "user Debian"?
[15:32] <RITRedbeard> Wirth's Law
[15:33] <RITRedbeard> also
[15:33] <RITRedbeard> "Do one thing, do it well."
[15:33] <RITRedbeard> Not sure why I need Lua, Python, perl, et al. in the minimalist build
[15:34] <RITRedbeard> I don't mind Lua so much because it's so tiny and doesn't have many dependencies
[15:34] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[15:34] <RITRedbeard> Not that I use it.
[15:34] <tntexplosivesltd> perl is linux standard
[15:34] <RITRedbeard> It is now, apparently.
[15:34] <tntexplosivesltd> has been for aaaaaages man
[15:35] <tntexplosivesltd> Mr Standards McComplainington
[15:35] <RITRedbeard> perl is shit
[15:35] <RITRedbeard> for every luser who complains
[15:35] <RITRedbeard> OHHHHHHHHH
[15:35] <tntexplosivesltd> well, it's subjective
[15:35] <zgreg> minimalism as an end in itself is not very useful
[15:35] <zgreg> the system needs to be capable to do something useful
[15:36] <RITRedbeard> okay and import os; shit; you; wonder; why; the; libraries; are; huge; is?
[15:36] <zgreg> and frankly, a few scripting language packages and whatever are not harming *anything* and don't impact performance
[15:36] <RITRedbeard> Yeah.
[15:37] <zgreg> but yeah, perl is shit
[15:37] <RITRedbeard> You would say that, you subversive.
[15:37] <RITRedbeard> I'd say the platform I've been working on is embedded.
[15:37] <RITRedbeard> I think at initd it reports like 60 bogomips? for what its worth
[15:37] <zgreg> well, the pi is not a typical embedded platform
[15:37] <RITRedbeard> it runs all the goodies fine
[15:38] <RITRedbeard> and I'm going to find Larry Wall, hunt him down, and waterboard him
[15:39] <RITRedbeard> and every cult follower who thinks it is a great idea to mix procedrual, object oriented, and functional paradigms every 10 lines
[15:39] <zgreg> perl6 is also kind of... lol
[15:39] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Read error: No route to host)
[15:39] <zgreg> RITRedbeard: that almost sounds like c++
[15:40] <zgreg> which is a horrible language as well
[15:40] <RITRedbeard> there is no functional ability
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[15:40] <RITRedbeard> all that you have is a vtable when it gets assembled
[15:40] <zgreg> c++11 introduced some functional programming features
[15:41] <Axman6> apparently
[15:41] <piless> real men program by scratching 1s and 0s on their hdds by hand
[15:41] <RITRedbeard> jesus christ, it's like eveyone in this channel is on Noah's Ark and we're the only sane ones left
[15:41] <RITRedbeard> Did people sample LISP and Scheme from the medicine cabinet in the last 5-10 years?
[15:43] <RITRedbeard> Why would it possibly be a good idea to mix three different paradigms, dynamic types and whitespace
[15:43] <RITRedbeard> real readable
[15:43] <tntexplosivesltd> piless: magnet and a steady hand
[15:43] <tntexplosivesltd> like the cavemen
[15:44] <RITRedbeard> No, the same champions of this crap are the same people who bleat:
[15:44] <RITRedbeard> but, but... why do we need RISC? what is the advantage? nobody programs in assembly any more!
[15:44] <RITRedbeard> our compilers are good enough!
[15:44] <tntexplosivesltd> lol
[15:45] <RITRedbeard> and I don't need to understand how to preserve stack frame and activation record
[15:45] <zgreg> compilers are NEVER good enough
[15:45] <RITRedbeard> shit
[15:45] <RITRedbeard> it's all computer magic
[15:45] <zgreg> intel learned this, and ati did it too
[15:45] <tntexplosivesltd> assembly is only good for microcontrollers with no C toolchain
[15:45] <tntexplosivesltd> RITRedbeard: that's a but shortsighted
[15:45] <tntexplosivesltd> think of the people who write the compilers
[15:45] <zgreg> itanium's architecture relied on clever compilers, and it did not work out
[15:46] <RITRedbeard> You mean elves don't do garbage collection and preserve the stack across calls?!?!?!?!
[15:46] <RITRedbeard> OH MY GOD
[15:46] <tntexplosivesltd> =D
[15:46] <tntexplosivesltd> yup, in for an all-nighter
[15:46] <zgreg> amd/ati's old gpu architecture was complicated and relied on good compilers, and it never worked out
[15:47] <RITRedbeard> dude -____________-
[15:47] <zgreg> now they've switched to a simpler architecture similar to nvidia's
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[15:47] <RITRedbeard> you don't need to know how that stuff works
[15:47] <RITRedbeard> it just... works
[15:47] <tntexplosivesltd> RITRedbeard: who's to say I don't want to know
[15:47] <RITRedbeard> shader units? vertex and FP ALU?
[15:47] <RITRedbeard> texture map?
[15:47] <tntexplosivesltd> yeaha
[15:47] <RITRedbeard> bahaahahaha
[15:48] <RITRedbeard> keebler elves, dude
[15:48] <RITRedbeard> keebler elves.
[15:48] <tntexplosivesltd> Had to do all that for my 3D block framework
[15:48] <tntexplosivesltd> written in raw openGL
[15:48] <tntexplosivesltd> kinda have to know about that
[15:48] <RITRedbeard> you mean you didn't use Qt like a "bawss"?
[15:48] <tntexplosivesltd> ???_???
[15:48] <RITRedbeard> like all the cool kiddies?
[15:49] <tntexplosivesltd> try harder
[15:49] <RITRedbeard> you mean having some insight to the underlying operation of the machine gives you better insight into design choices?!
[15:49] <RITRedbeard> damn
[15:49] <RITRedbeard> who woulda thunk?
[15:50] <tntexplosivesltd> I don't see why other have such a problem with that concept
[15:50] <tntexplosivesltd> * other people
[15:50] <tntexplosivesltd> surely you have met them
[15:50] <tntexplosivesltd> asking pointless questions
[15:50] <tntexplosivesltd> following poor design principles
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[15:51] <RITRedbeard> they're not mutually inclusive of one another
[15:51] <RITRedbeard> but they make a difference
[15:51] <tntexplosivesltd> those people just got shown up
[15:51] <tntexplosivesltd> yea lol
[15:51] <tntexplosivesltd> case and point: Java
[15:54] <RITRedbeard> Well, the cool thing about JIT is that working knowledge to allow fairly good run time/compiling paradigm
[15:54] <RITRedbeard> but it doesn't change the fact that JVM is always highest mem usage thing on my machine at any given time
[15:54] <RITRedbeard> because the garbage collector is a lazy stoner
[15:54] <tntexplosivesltd> and takes the longest to actually start
[15:54] <tntexplosivesltd> lol, gc
[15:55] <tntexplosivesltd> I remember someone on here suggesting to use gc for C programming
[15:55] <tntexplosivesltd> I was like wut...
[15:55] <zgreg> caching compiled code can somewhat solve the startup issue
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[15:55] <RITRedbeard> I was actually thrashing to disk the other day
[15:55] <zgreg> android does that, for instance
[15:55] <RITRedbeard> I was playing minecraft
[15:55] <RITRedbeard> and running Adobe Flash
[15:55] <RITRedbeard> at the same time
[15:55] <tntexplosivesltd> zgreg: or just compile it once, job done
[15:56] <zgreg> tntexplosivesltd: it's possible to use a gc in c
[15:56] <RITRedbeard> people on my server got a nasty surprise when tried to do a ton of micro writes to swap
[15:56] <RITRedbeard> because for some reason they won't turn on large addressable bit
[15:56] <RITRedbeard> or just compile it 64 bit
[15:56] <zgreg> boehm-gc is more or less a drop-in for malloc/free, it's pretty interesting
[15:56] <zgreg> I wouldn't use it, though
[15:56] <RITRedbeard> to run in the 64 bit JVM
[15:57] <tntexplosivesltd> zgreg: but it's the worst thing in the world
[15:57] <tntexplosivesltd> it's just... a really bad idea
[15:57] <tntexplosivesltd> I think that one was the one being talked about
[15:57] <zgreg> the implementation is quite interesting though
[15:58] <RITRedbeard> the best thing about my debian pi experience with qemu
[15:58] <tntexplosivesltd> hooray good coding practices go out the window
[15:58] <zgreg> boehm-gc does some crazy things to distinguish data from pointers, to properly track references
[15:58] <RITRedbeard> has gdbserver
[15:58] <RITRedbeard> but no gdb
[15:59] <RITRedbeard> "DEBUG MY CODE FROM AFAR!"
[15:59] <tntexplosivesltd> meh, we used gdbserver for debugging embedded systems
[15:59] <tntexplosivesltd> different architecture from local computer
[16:00] <tntexplosivesltd> same idea I guess
[16:00] <RITRedbeard> like jtag
[16:00] <RITRedbeard> yeah, I get it
[16:00] <RITRedbeard> but why not have gdb as well
[16:00] <RITRedbeard> it boggles the mind
[16:00] <tntexplosivesltd> we didn't have it
[16:00] <tntexplosivesltd> too big
[16:00] <RITRedbeard> oh yeah
[16:00] <RITRedbeard> I forgot
[16:00] <RITRedbeard> gotta save that room for the twenty redundant scripting languages
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[16:01] <RITRedbeard> and their massive libraries
[16:01] <tntexplosivesltd> depends on the device
[16:01] <tntexplosivesltd> these devices had a small linux distro, and we were pressed for space
[16:01] <tntexplosivesltd> they had almost nothing on them
[16:01] <tntexplosivesltd> you'd be surprised
[16:02] <tntexplosivesltd> using smaller chip -> less cost
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[16:09] <tntexplosivesltd> what's with all the joins
[16:09] <tntexplosivesltd> amerifags waking up?
[16:09] <tntexplosivesltd> * americans
[16:09] <tntexplosivesltd> sorry
[16:09] <tntexplosivesltd> force of habit
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[16:46] <RITRedbeard> tntexplosivesltd, sorta
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[16:50] <MattyLad> Hello World
[16:50] <RITRedbeard> hello
[16:51] <MattyLad> I just guessed that there would be a channel for the Pi, so whats happening in here today?
[16:52] <RITRedbeard> I was bitching about the Debian release.
[16:52] <RITRedbeard> for Raspberry Pi.
[16:53] <RITRedbeard> I got it working under qemu under windows 7
[16:53] <RITRedbeard> but the modern linux distribution is so butchered that it boggles the mind
[16:53] <RITRedbeard> and I can't get qemu to recognize/emulate a different video card
[16:53] <RITRedbeard> so I'm stuck in 640x480
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[16:54] <RITRedbeard> trying to wrap my head around stream processing
[16:55] <RITRedbeard> quite different from the typical application
[16:55] <RITRedbeard> http://www.cnx-software.com/tag/openmax/
[16:55] <MattyLad> I have not tried it yat as I'm completely disheateened with the PI
[16:55] <RITRedbeard> So am I.
[16:55] <RITRedbeard> I might try the Fedora image mid-week and see if they butchered that
[16:56] <MattyLad> (Disheartened) Because I too set my alarm for 6am, the websites were down and by the time I got to order it - I now do not even have a delivery date - just a 4.5 month back order time.
[16:56] <RITRedbeard> Yeah, have you heard about the most recent thing?
[16:57] <RITRedbeard> Beyond magnetics in RJ-45 jacks?
[16:57] <MattyLad> I now find that it was not even going to meet basic standards for selling in EUrope
[16:57] <RITRedbeard> Yep, Farnell and RS want to CYA.
[16:57] <MattyLad> Whats up with the jack?
[16:57] <RITRedbeard> The put the wrong jacks on (without magnetic isolators inside like was on the BOM)
[16:57] <RITRedbeard> at the factory
[16:57] <MattyLad> OOPS!
[16:57] <RITRedbeard> so they had to send all the units back to get proper jacks soldered on
[16:57] <MattyLad> Will they be recalled and refitted?
[16:58] <RITRedbeard> They already have been I believe.
[16:58] <RITRedbeard> Now they're being silk screened with this CE crap.
[16:58] <RITRedbeard> In Europe apparently.
[16:58] <MattyLad> Sounds like the whole project has been a "willy up" :)
[16:58] <RITRedbeard> I told a wicked good joke when I came in here last night.
[16:58] <MattyLad> Go on
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <RITRedbeard> evening
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <RITRedbeard> I almost got laid tonight. You won't believe what happened and why I couldn't seal the deal.
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <RITRedbeard> Sheesh!
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <GabrialDestruir> It wouldn't getet up?
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <GabrialDestruir> get up*
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <RITRedbeard> Any other guesses?
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <DaMummy> cousin
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <mpthompson> She was a he?
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <DaMummy> her parents kicked you out
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <RITRedbeard> Not quite, apparently my condom's didn't have a CE mark.
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <GabrialDestruir> lmfao
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <GabrialDestruir> xD
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> <Yossarian> <RITRedbeard> So I had to send the entire package back to China.
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> sorry for quoting a quote
[16:59] <RITRedbeard> my history only goes back 4000 lines :(
[16:59] <MattyLad> lol
[17:00] <WASDx> ugh, i have 300k lines in my log from this channel
[17:00] <MattyLad> DOes it also have a ROSH label on it and a wheely bin?
[17:00] <WASDx> 230k *
[17:00] <RITRedbeard> from part and joins?
[17:00] <RITRedbeard> lol rosh
[17:00] <WASDx> that includes all the joins and autovoicing and stuff
[17:01] <MattyLad> *rohs
[17:01] <MattyLad> pronounced rosh though :)
[17:02] <RITRedbeard> yeah a lot of the steam in my sails have been removed
[17:02] <RITRedbeard> but I am anxious to port software to pi
[17:03] <RITRedbeard> I'm thinking about developing open source version of Valve's Steamworks
[17:03] <RITRedbeard> but for FOSS
[17:03] <RITRedbeard> games/engines
[17:03] * hugopeixoto (~theorem@a94-132-176-42.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:03] * PiBot sets mode +v hugopeixoto
[17:03] <MattyLad> I'm not a software writer, I'm a PCB layout guy so I see these hiccups as part of the design process as basic daily checks.
[17:03] <MattyLad> My boards have to get to market within the same month lol
[17:04] * passstab (~coplon@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[17:04] * PiBot sets mode +v oldtopman
[17:04] <RITRedbeard> yeah
[17:04] <RITRedbeard> engineering time
[17:04] <RITRedbeard> but raspberry pi foundation has been so incompetent or evil
[17:04] <RITRedbeard> we were talking last night how with the linux distributions they're violating GPL
[17:04] * hugopeixoto is now known as politoed
[17:05] <RITRedbeard> like many people
[17:05] <RITRedbeard> and they might lose if taken to court
[17:05] <RITRedbeard> atleast drained dry
[17:05] <RITRedbeard> but router manufacturers had to adhere to it after using embedded linux
[17:05] <MattyLad> Oh no, pi is dead before it even gets delivered :)
[17:06] <RITRedbeard> but I am just excited for a platform that is low power and RISC for games
[17:06] <RITRedbeard> I could get into porting and maintaining
[17:06] <RITRedbeard> think about the Wii, if you've ever indulged
[17:06] <MattyLad> I only got interested because my 15yr old lad told me about it, he wants one to put xbmc on.
[17:07] <RITRedbeard> yeah, I think a lot of people who are actually interested in education are bit annoyed
[17:07] <MattyLad> Until I can actually get my hands on one I dont know what I'm going to do with it.
[17:07] <zgreg> what's the matter with xbmc on the pi?
[17:07] <RITRedbeard> mostly everyone is riding on the coat tails because they want a cheap low power thin client with h264 decode
[17:07] <ShiftPlusOne2> morning
[17:07] <RITRedbeard> nothing
[17:07] <zgreg> I still don't understand it, it's pretty limited overall
[17:08] <RITRedbeard> I guess the appeal of a Roku for $25 is somehow appealing
[17:08] <MattyLad> I started learning Python but have stopped because the youtube tutorials are pretty limited and I want to know how to make graphics boxes like you would with visual basic etc.
[17:08] <RITRedbeard> redundency department of redundency hehheh
[17:08] <zgreg> no mpeg-2, vc-1, etc. support, and it's too slow for the more interesting thigns you can do with xbmc
[17:08] <zgreg> RITRedbeard: in theory. the pi ships without case, psu, cables, and software
[17:08] <RITRedbeard> right
[17:08] <MattyLad> zgreg, whats wrong with xbmc on the pi is that you cannot run it if you dont have a pi :)
[17:08] <RITRedbeard> depending on use case actually pandaboard is same price or cheaper
[17:08] <RITRedbeard> and obtainable
[17:09] <RITRedbeard> last time I checked
[17:09] <RITRedbeard> mouser had 50 in stock
[17:09] <shirro> RITRedbeard: just make sure you have plenty of ventilation for the Panda
[17:10] <zgreg> huh, the pandaboard doesn't get very hot, at least ours doesn't...
[17:10] <RITRedbeard> a double entendre or cortex a8 TDP that much more?
[17:10] <RITRedbeard> because I can see a real panda being really hot with all that fur
[17:11] <zgreg> the pi will be quite the power hog, though, thanks to linear regulators :)
[17:11] <RITRedbeard> ugh
[17:11] <shirro> if have heard they overheat. i am writing this on a 1G A8 with no heatsink and I can touch it
[17:11] <MattyLad> I offered to layout a PCB on the forums if someone comes up with a good add on, no one bothered answering.
[17:11] <RITRedbeard> MattyLad, MSI to LVDS
[17:11] <MattyLad> ??
[17:11] <RITRedbeard> HDMI (TDMS) to LVDS
[17:11] <zgreg> the foundation had to make quite some compromises to get to the low price point
[17:12] <RITRedbeard> yeah
[17:12] <RITRedbeard> what regulators are they using?
[17:12] <RITRedbeard> some sort of SMD 7805s?
[17:12] <zgreg> no idea, just standard low-drop regulators
[17:12] <RITRedbeard> switch mode 'regulator' actually isn't that expensive
[17:12] <zgreg> 7805? nope, that is not low drop
[17:12] <MattyLad> compromises yeah, like a board that does not fit in a std rectangular case lol
[17:12] <zgreg> there's no audio DAC either on the pi
[17:13] <RITRedbeard> digital out
[17:13] * RITRedbeard shrugs
[17:13] <zgreg> audio is generated via PWM and a low-pass filter
[17:13] <RITRedbeard> USB soundcards are cheap
[17:13] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-67-166-217-42.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:13] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[17:13] <RITRedbeard> $2
[17:13] <mkopack> 'sup gang?
[17:13] <zgreg> yeah... but those cheap add-ons quickly add up :)
[17:13] <RITRedbeard> they all support ASIO4ALL drivers too
[17:13] <RITRedbeard> if you were curious
[17:13] <MattyLad> The aduio goes out the HDMI though doesnt it?
[17:13] <RITRedbeard> I know
[17:13] * basso (~quassel@pc5103.stdby.hin.no) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[17:13] <ShiftPlusOne2> mkopack, hello, not too much
[17:13] <zgreg> MattyLad: if you can use HDMI audio, yes
[17:14] <RITRedbeard> with a good wireless radio and everything... depending on WHAT you wanted to use it for, it would cost as much as a pandaboard ES
[17:14] <zgreg> MattyLad: but that might not be the case, especially if you use a PC display
[17:14] <ShiftPlusOne2> well, I just came flying off the bike at 70km/h hour and am in a lot of pain, but other than that, not much =/
[17:14] <mkopack> Red: What's the topic?
[17:14] <RITRedbeard> in my example, 10.4" ultraportable low power RISC machine
[17:14] <RITRedbeard> catching mattylab up to speed
[17:14] <mkopack> On?
[17:14] <RITRedbeard> on how I couldn't get laid because my condoms didn't have CE markings on them
[17:15] <RITRedbeard> so sent them back to the factory to get inspected and stress tested
[17:15] <RITRedbeard> then silk screened
[17:15] <zgreg> indeed, the pandaboard seems to be expensive at first, but it includes so many peripherals that it becomes quite attractive if you need those
[17:15] <RITRedbeard> for her pleasure
[17:15] <mkopack> (just wondering, sounded interesting and PandaEs was brought up...)
[17:15] <mkopack> RITRedbeard: LOL!!!! Does it come with the "Stiff-Ass-Brit" tickler?
[17:15] <shirro> How does quake3 run on a Panda?
[17:16] <mkopack> shirro: I'd try it to let you know, but I don't believe I have the 3D drivers installed on mine
[17:16] <zgreg> shirro: why bother? that's a useless benchmark
[17:16] <RITRedbeard> decent without proper optimizations
[17:16] <RITRedbeard> oh
[17:16] <RITRedbeard> panda
[17:16] <RITRedbeard> sorry
[17:16] <RITRedbeard> i've been up all night
[17:16] <RITRedbeard> read panda as pi
[17:16] <mkopack> I'd image better than the RPi given it has WAY more CPU, but all depends on the GPU I'd think
[17:17] <mkopack> I'm working on getting ROS up and going on my Panda???
[17:17] <zgreg> the GPU on OMAP4 is not that great, though
[17:17] <shirro> Well I compiled an gles port of ioquake tonight and ran it on the imx53 at it was shockingly bad
[17:17] <mkopack> Compiling things on it takes a while
[17:17] <RITRedbeard> yeah
[17:17] * zl0xy (~Endgame@brn29-2-88-164-42-133.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:17] * PiBot sets mode +v zl0xy
[17:17] <zgreg> but still, running q3 is pretty useless. it uses very deprecated, old-style opengl.
[17:17] <RITRedbeard> but would you rather have a 486DX and a HD 7570?
[17:17] <ShiftPlusOne2> well since no one cares that I almost died.... =(
[17:17] <RITRedbeard> or would you rather have a core i3 but geforce 8400GS?
[17:18] <RITRedbeard> you almost died
[17:18] <RITRedbeard> ?
[17:18] <shirro> looking at the performance on the Pi with that shit CPU. Amazing
[17:18] <zgreg> shirro: q3 is pretty optimized for low cpu usage
[17:18] <RITRedbeard> q3 maps are small
[17:18] <RITRedbeard> arena shooter
[17:19] <zgreg> it doesn't necessarily reflect how more current game engines run
[17:19] <RITRedbeard> I wonder how many polygons you're pushing
[17:19] <zgreg> or engines that actually use shaders, and so on
[17:19] <RITRedbeard> yes
[17:19] <shirro> zgreg: I was running a gles port - not opengl. And arm CPUs are much slower than intel
[17:19] <mkopack> ShiftPlusOne2: ???
[17:19] <RITRedbeard> last night I found out my laptop (Thinkpad T410 with switchable graphics) can run GTA: San Andreas perfectly.
[17:19] <mkopack> lol
[17:19] <RITRedbeard> Yet it chokes on unreal engine based games like Killing Floor on lowest settings
[17:20] <mkopack> Slap around a few Hookers did we?
[17:20] <zgreg> shirro: opengl es is merely a stripped-down opengl variant
[17:20] <RITRedbeard> san andreas multiplayer
[17:20] <RITRedbeard> pissed some people off
[17:20] <zgreg> shirro: i.e. it's still opengl, basically
[17:20] <RITRedbeard> shot some cops
[17:20] * GeorgeH_ (~George@c-69-141-105-145.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:20] * PiBot sets mode +v GeorgeH_
[17:20] <shirro> zgreg: you said old fashioned opengl. you can't do old fashioned opengl in gles. it is all shaders
[17:21] <RITRedbeard> mkopack, I think games can be ported to platforms lie rasp and panda es somewhat painlessly
[17:21] <zgreg> shirro: no, that is only true for GLES 2.0
[17:21] <RITRedbeard> that's what I was also talking about with MattyLad right before you joined
[17:21] <zgreg> I'm pretty certain the q3 port uses GLES 1.1, otherwise porting it would be a big undertaking
[17:21] <RITRedbeard> I got qemu running on 7 with the debian image
[17:22] <mkopack> RITRedbeard: Yeah, I haven't been able to find the specifics about the Panda's GPU yet, but I'd imagine anything that runs on one would run on the other just maybe a bit slower
[17:22] <RITRedbeard> I can do nearly everything, but use the pesky GPU
[17:22] * GeorgeH (~George@c-69-141-105-145.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[17:22] <shirro> zgreg: oh damn, you are right. It is only v1. Sorry
[17:22] <shirro> I should have checked. Anyway the glesv1 sucks on this platform as well
[17:23] <zgreg> GLES 1.1 is going away quickly
[17:23] <RITRedbeard> I was thinking of porting simpler games anyway
[17:23] <zgreg> and that is probably a good thing
[17:23] <RITRedbeard> like UFO2000
[17:23] <ShiftPlusOne2> what's a good way to learn to use shaders?
[17:23] <RITRedbeard> etc
[17:23] <RITRedbeard> good question
[17:23] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne2: what do you want to do with them?
[17:23] <RITRedbeard> I asked myself the same question last night
[17:23] <ShiftPlusOne2> zgreg, draw squares and circles to start with
[17:24] <mkopack> Ok, os the Panda is using the same GPU that is in the iPhone 4
[17:24] <mkopack> Which Eben seemed to feel the Broadcom one on the PI was faster
[17:24] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne2: pick up any of the tutorials for modern opengl
[17:24] <RITRedbeard> ShiftPlusOne2: http://www.cnx-software.com/tag/openmax/
[17:24] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne2: or maybe better yet, something specifically for opengl es 2.0
[17:24] <RITRedbeard> also if you have the image in a VM or something check out /opt/vc/src/hello_pi
[17:25] <RITRedbeard> examples of videocore iv stuff
[17:25] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne2: http://duriansoftware.com/joe/An-intro-to-modern-OpenGL.-Chapter-1:-The-Graphics-Pipeline.html is pretty interesting
[17:25] <ShiftPlusOne2> k, I'll look into it later, thanks. *bookmarked*
[17:25] <zgreg> however, note that circles are not a graphics primitive, and neither are quads :)
[17:25] <RITRedbeard> also just look at any semi-recent GPU design at random
[17:25] * MattyLad is going idle while he visits a smaller room in the house..
[17:26] <RITRedbeard> programmable pipeline, ROM, WOM, onboard dram
[17:26] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-67-166-217-42.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[17:26] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-67-166-217-42.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:26] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[17:26] <mkopack> nice thanks zgreg!
[17:26] <ShiftPlusOne2> Nothing like a near death experience to make you realise you don't know enough about opengl and time learning opengl is precious. =D
[17:26] <RITRedbeard> there was actually (GASP!) a decently written thing on it on wikipedia
[17:26] <mkopack> lol
[17:27] <mkopack> ok, I should get going. Need to do some grocery shopping and then get home and clean the house up a bit. Will catch you guys later.
[17:27] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne2: opengl es is a bit different from desktop opengl, though
[17:27] <piless> mkopack: don't forget to stop by hooters
[17:27] <zgreg> ShiftPlusOne2: it's stripped down a lot
[17:28] <zgreg> I can't find a good opengl es specific howto, though
[17:28] <mkopack> BTW, here's something to discuss - http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/general-discussion/r-pi-massively-multiplayer-online-role-playing-games-mmorpg/page-3 Look at my "game" proposal at the end of that thread...
[17:28] <ShiftPlusOne2> zgreg, I've played around with regular opengl, drawing text and 2d stuff with VBOs, but want to learn just ES,
[17:28] <mkopack> piless: Nah, was there last night with my buddy
[17:28] <zgreg> maybe those "opengl es for iphone" tutorials are handy... if you skip the iOS specific stuff
[17:29] <shirro> zgreg: do you know of a simple opengl demo for rough benchmarking?
[17:29] <zgreg> shirro: no
[17:29] <RITRedbeard> bubble sort?
[17:29] <mkopack> Anyhow, catch you guys later.
[17:29] <RITRedbeard> of a ton of data?
[17:29] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-67-166-217-42.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[17:29] <RITRedbeard> newton's method?
[17:29] <ShiftPlusOne2> not quite simple, but phoronix-test-suite has plenty of benchmarks
[17:29] <RITRedbeard> or some other linear approximation implemented using lot of data
[17:29] <ShiftPlusOne2> so I am sure theres a way to just download a specific benchmark
[17:29] <zgreg> phoronix? are you serious? :D
[17:29] <RITRedbeard> monte carlo sim?
[17:29] <RITRedbeard> oh
[17:30] <RITRedbeard> discrete cosine transforms!
[17:30] <ShiftPlusOne2> what's wrong with phoronix?
[17:30] <shirro> ShiftPlusOne2: I really just want something like glxgears except for gles2 to see how bad this chip is
[17:30] <zgreg> well... everything? :D
[17:30] <ShiftPlusOne2> oh, I don't think you said gles2... you just said opengl.
[17:31] <RITRedbeard> adaptive data structures?
[17:31] * mikey_w (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:31] <shirro> sorry I have an environment variable called opengl set to OpenGLES 2 in my head
[17:31] <RITRedbeard> navier-strokes
[17:31] <ShiftPlusOne2> ah
[17:31] <RITRedbeard> FFT
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[17:31] * PiBot sets mode +v basso
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[17:32] <RITRedbeard> lots of quantitative cryptography and cryptanalyis?
[17:32] <shirro> there isn't a lot of gles 2 source code out there
[17:33] <ShiftPlusOne2> there's plenty for java
[17:33] <ShiftPlusOne2> I think
[17:33] <RITRedbeard> neural networks
[17:33] <RITRedbeard> which tend to get messy with lots of inputs
[17:33] <ShiftPlusOne2> stop listing stuff!
[17:33] <zgreg> but there's plenty of closed-source code out there that uses GLES2 (in the apple appstore)
[17:34] <shirro> android or iphone. yeah. not a huge amount of open source though. nothing in the linux repos.
[17:34] <zgreg> what are you listing anyway?
[17:34] * gregrob (~Greg@bas1-brampton13-1279592007.dsl.bell.ca) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[17:34] <RITRedbeard> nearest neighbor search and conway's game of life
[17:35] <shirro> TSP
[17:35] <RITRedbeard> things that are arithmatically complex and thus are naturally suited to massively parallel computing
[17:35] <RITRedbeard> he asked
[17:35] <zgreg> opengl es is crap for gpgpu
[17:35] <zgreg> really, it's almost useless
[17:35] <RITRedbeard> I would just stare at your standard RISC architecture and then look at GPU architecture
[17:35] <RITRedbeard> vastly different
[17:36] <RITRedbeard> different planets
[17:37] <zgreg> I'm not sure what you're trying to say...
[17:37] <RITRedbeard> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_processing
[17:38] <zgreg> nice, that helps how?
[17:38] <shirro> given the price/performance of a pi if you want to do a particle sim, just fire some out of a cannon
[17:38] <zgreg> opengl es is simply crap for gpgpu stuff, for various reasons
[17:38] <chris_99> on the subject of Conways game of life this is pretty mindblowing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QtJ77qsLrpw
[17:38] <MattyLad> I vote for firing something out of a cannon :)
[17:39] <RITRedbeard> cellular autonoma
[17:39] <MattyLad> How about porting Mindcraft to it?
[17:39] <RITRedbeard> mindcraft or minecraft?
[17:39] <MattyLad> *Minecraft
[17:39] <RITRedbeard> sorry
[17:39] <RITRedbeard> JVM would just run out of memory
[17:39] <RITRedbeard> doesn't even run on netbooks
[17:39] * MattyLad <<Dyslexic
[17:39] <zgreg> even opengl is pretty bad for gpgpu, but opengl misses most of the features that make it bearable and flexible enough for most general-purpose computing tasks
[17:40] * MattyLad << takes ages to type as I have to double check and rewrite a lot
[17:40] <RITRedbeard> well the point isn't gpgpu but rather he was asking how to take advantage of the inherent architecture of massively parallel processing
[17:40] <zgreg> err, I meant to say opengl es the second time I said opengl.
[17:41] <RITRedbeard> it's hard to think of practical applications
[17:41] <RITRedbeard> I tried
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[17:41] * PiBot sets mode +v imnichol
[17:41] <MattyLad> >> it's hard to think of practical applications (Without a pi) - I finished your sentence for you lol
[17:42] <MattyLad> At the moment the only Pi I have is one with Mushy Peas...
[17:42] <zgreg> just saying - all those folks that think the powerful GPU in the pi can sort of "make up" for the crappy CPU are on the wrong track
[17:43] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:43] * PiBot sets mode +v mdavey
[17:43] <RITRedbeard> yes, it is well known especially if you follow enthusiast computing that many times we see the bottleneck of i/o at the CPU
[17:43] <zgreg> that will not happen, especially not with an API as restricted as opengl es
[17:43] <RITRedbeard> which is why I'd rather have cortex
[17:44] <RITRedbeard> because pretty much every task I perform on a daily basis cannot be vector'ized well
[17:44] <RITRedbeard> so they're pretty much all mathematically/arithmically intensive tasks for the most part
[17:46] <shirro> not being very familiar with these arm soc thingies it is very reassuring to see full screen x264 video taking essentially zero cpu.
[17:47] <RITRedbeard> sorta :)
[17:47] <zgreg> that's because there is dedicated hardware in those SoCs specifically for decoding popular video formats
[17:47] <shirro> thats quite nice when your cpu is burning up at 100% trying to play a small webm
[17:47] <zgreg> it does not indicate acceptable general performance
[17:47] <RITRedbeard> http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1678499
[17:48] <shirro> it is nice given the appalling performance of the cpu that you can offload such things
[17:48] <RITRedbeard> post #19 onward is interesting
[17:48] <zgreg> the CPU basically only has to push the video stream to the gpu, and that's it
[17:48] <zgreg> shirro: yes, but only a few very specific tasks
[17:48] <RITRedbeard> arithmetically intensive ones.
[17:49] * NIN101 (~NIN@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:49] <zgreg> shirro: and that is what most people don't understand
[17:50] <zgreg> they see it decode 1080p h.264 flawlessly, but then ask why the web browser runs so damn slow
[17:50] <shirro> they will have fun when the discover lack of web video. I can live without flash. But I haven't found any brower that will play h264 via gstreamer yet.
[17:51] <MattyLad> This thing about the GPL, cant they get a license for it?
[17:51] <RITRedbeard> or maybe our computing paradigm sucks
[17:52] <RITRedbeard> maybe there is a way to look up porn in a browser massively parallel
[17:52] <RITRedbeard> but I doubt it
[17:52] <shirro> all those lovely ffmpeg/mplayer decoders we relied on for so long are obsolete in this world. it is all down to the hardware vendor and licences. sad.
[17:52] <zgreg> I think arora can utilize gstreamer
[17:53] <shirro> arora is slow
[17:53] <RITRedbeard> aurora snow?
[17:53] <RITRedbeard> wait, what?
[17:53] <MattyLad> Does anyone know how to save this channel as a favorite in Chatzilla?
[17:54] <zgreg> there's probably quite some work required to get the videcore-iv supported in gstreamer
[17:55] <zgreg> but anyway, there's not web video working yet, and it'll take a while, I'm sure of that
[17:55] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@173-69.dsl.iskon.hr) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[17:55] <zgreg> if html <video> will ever work with acceptable performance we don't know yet
[17:56] <zgreg> even if decoding is accelerated, video presentation is still done by the browser, and those are pretty bad (slow) at it
[17:57] * oldtopman (~oldtopman@unaffiliated/oldtopman) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:58] <zgreg> it'll be fun... I anticipate the first "Y YOUTUBE NO WORK???" threads on the forums shortly after the boards are sent out :D
[17:58] <shirro> yeah and i don't think the chrome guys are going to want to give up their sandbox to some external video driver
[17:59] <zgreg> plus many threads that complain about "raspberry pi, the 25$ video player box" not working out of the box
[18:00] <zgreg> s/video player
[18:00] <shirro> i have gstreamer access to hardware codecs on this soc including h264, aac etc but it is still hard.
[18:00] <zgreg> s/video player box/HTPC/
[18:00] <shirro> ofcourse i had to make kernel mods just to get the video playing reliably.
[18:01] * Delboy_ (~Kombajn@173-69.dsl.iskon.hr) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:01] * PiBot sets mode +v Delboy_
[18:01] <shirro> and i am stuck on ubuntu 10.04 for ever and can't switch to armhf
[18:04] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[18:04] * MattyLad (~chatzilla@5e0f02e7.bb.sky.com) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
[18:05] <zgreg> another popular thread type will be "HOW 2 ADD MORE RAM?????", I guess :)
[18:06] * curahack (~curahack@sub-190-88-68ip221.rev.onenet.an) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:06] * PiBot sets mode +v curahack
[18:06] <zgreg> but first and foremost I expect a lot of "Y EVERYTHING SO SLOW???? :("
[18:07] <RITRedbeard> i want to port good games to it
[18:07] <RITRedbeard> UFO2000
[18:07] <curahack> Hi everyone, long time!
[18:07] <RITRedbeard> Hello traveller.
[18:08] <curahack> How many people here actually received their Pi yet?
[18:08] <RITRedbeard> From the Antilles?
[18:08] <RITRedbeard> noone
[18:09] <curahack> wow, you remember where I'm from?
[18:09] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:09] * PiBot sets mode +v nils_2
[18:09] <curahack> or did you do a lookup
[18:09] <RITRedbeard> you have a special domain name/top level TLD
[18:09] <RITRedbeard> so do I!
[18:09] <RITRedbeard> plus it's in my nick :)
[18:09] <shirro> the good news is compiling will be really fast. you just need distcc and an i7
[18:10] <curahack> edu
[18:10] <curahack> nice
[18:10] <RITRedbeard> lol
[18:10] <curahack> anyway, I've done some work on my site, and I was hoping to get some feedback :)
[18:11] <curahack> Check https://rpi-developers.com/
[18:12] <DJWillis> curahack: nice layout but any reason you would want to fragment from the main sources for this type of project support (thinking SourceForge/GIThub et. all).
[18:12] * [XeN] (~XenGi@ has joined #raspberrypi
[18:12] * PiBot sets mode +v [XeN]
[18:13] * [XeN] (~XenGi@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:13] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[18:14] * NIN101 (~NIN@ has joined #raspberrypi
[18:14] * PiBot sets mode +v NIN101
[18:14] <curahack> Well the idea started when I was looking for a place where all RPi projects come together, but there wasn't one, so I developed this, and now I'm just hoping it will catch on,
[18:14] * MidnighToker (~Toker@unaffiliated/midnightoker) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:14] <DJWillis> shirro: you planned to do something 'other' than cross compile everything ;).
[18:14] <shirro> you forgot the TM on the logo
[18:14] <curahack> nah
[18:14] * MidnighToker (~Toker@unaffiliated/midnightoker) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:14] * PiBot sets mode +v MidnighToker
[18:15] <DJWillis> curahack: it's a nice idea, just has a downside to cross platform projects if you get my drift, good luck and I hope it does catch on even as a jumping off point to projects.
[18:15] <curahack> yeah
[18:16] <curahack> I'm currently busy with RaspMBC
[18:16] <curahack> also trying to get in contact with other projects
[18:17] * MidnighToker (~Toker@unaffiliated/midnightoker) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:17] <curahack> Here's a map automatically generated by my CDN http://i.imgur.com/1DWr8.png The red pointer is my location
[18:17] * MidnighToker (~Toker@unaffiliated/midnightoker) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:17] * PiBot sets mode +v MidnighToker
[18:17] * Laogeodritt (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:17] * PiBot sets mode +v Laogeodritt
[18:18] <shirro> DJWillis: it is kind of nice to be sitting at something with the power of a clock-radio and orchestrating multiple parallel cross-compiles over the network. it is a really nice inversion
[18:18] * maahes (~maahes@cpe-98-148-196-131.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[18:18] * johnLAPACHE (~lpche@juv34-1-82-225-182-193.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[18:20] * johnLAPACHE (~lpche@juv34-1-82-225-182-193.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:20] * PiBot sets mode +v johnLAPACHE
[18:21] * shirro (~shirro@pdpc/supporter/active/shirro) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[18:21] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:21] * PiBot sets mode +v Milos|Netbook
[18:21] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:21] <DJWillis> shirro: yep, I guess so, I tend to just go for a big cross compile box and have done with it, distcc is nice and all but gets bothersome with big builds or lots and lots of packages (I am a firmware/distro guy so building userspace from scratch and having distcc go AWOL is a pain ;-))
[18:21] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[18:23] * MidnighToker (~Toker@unaffiliated/midnightoker) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:23] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:23] * PiBot sets mode +v MrJackson
[18:23] * MidnighToker (~Toker@unaffiliated/midnightoker) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:23] * PiBot sets mode +v MidnighToker
[18:29] * iccanobif (iccanobif@host213-18-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[18:31] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-223-213.dsl.scarlet.be) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:31] * PiBot sets mode +v khildin
[18:32] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:32] * PiBot sets mode +v zleap
[18:34] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-24-98-202-47.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:34] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[18:34] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-24-98-202-47.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[18:34] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-24-98-202-47.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:34] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[18:36] * Matthew (~Matthew@cpc3-farn4-0-0-cust594.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:36] * PiBot sets mode +v Matthew
[18:36] * Matthew is now known as Guest49850
[18:39] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:39] * PiBot sets mode +v IT_Sean
[18:41] * NIN101 (~NIN@ Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[18:46] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:46] * PiBot sets mode +v mdavey
[18:47] * imnichol (~ian@ Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[18:47] <mdavey> What's up with the Internet at the moment?
[18:47] <mdavey> Can't get to google.com, mail.google.com or twitter.com
[18:49] <WASDx> my internet is fine
[18:50] <mdavey> Apparently it isn't just me for mail.google.com
[18:50] <mdavey> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/mail.google.com
[18:51] <curahack> works fine here
[18:51] <curahack> What problem are you having? DNS? Connection timeout? resets?
[18:51] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[18:52] <WASDx> I'm on gmail right now and it's working
[18:52] <WASDx> "downforeveryoneorjustme.com" still tells me it's down though
[18:52] <WASDx> it must be down for them
[18:53] <curahack> or they blocked bots?
[18:53] <mdavey> Connection timeout
[18:53] <curahack> or theire using some weird HTTP headers
[18:54] <mdavey> Maybe related to the lauch of Gmail tap?
[18:55] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:55] * PiBot sets mode +v LWK_mac
[18:55] <curahack> nah
[18:55] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Client Quit)
[18:57] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:57] * PiBot sets mode +v LWK_mac
[18:58] * markit (~marco@88-149-177-66.staticnet.ngi.it) has left #raspberrypi
[19:05] * koda (~vittorio@host129-223-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Quit: koda)
[19:08] * Tomtiger11 (~tomtiger1@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:08] * PiBot sets mode +v Tomtiger11
[19:09] * Tomtiger11 (~tomtiger1@ Quit (Client Quit)
[19:09] <mdavey> google is back for me.
[19:11] <mdavey> seems it was a netsplit / major trunk going down
[19:15] * davros (~davros@71-87-211-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[19:15] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[19:18] * AdrianG (~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:18] * PiBot sets mode +v AdrianG
[19:22] * ukscone (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) has left #raspberrypi
[19:23] * ukscone (~Russell@cpe-68-173-234-162.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:23] * PiBot sets mode +v ukscone
[19:27] * passstab (~coplon@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:29] * VegetableSpoon (~Vegetable@poste94-168.wl.t.ulaval.ca) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:29] * PiBot sets mode +v VegetableSpoon
[19:30] * passstab (~coplon@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:30] * PiBot sets mode +v passstab
[19:30] * davros (~davros@71-87-211-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:30] * PiBot sets mode +v davros
[19:30] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Quit: The real world is just a crappy game... The ideal world can only be found within a game. Such was my believe. But if an ideal can be found within a crappy game, there may be an ideal route in the real world... for me to discover)
[19:30] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:30] * PiBot sets mode +v wiiguy
[19:31] * VegetableSpoon (~Vegetable@poste94-168.wl.t.ulaval.ca) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:32] * passstab (~coplon@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:33] * Maroni (~user@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:35] * RITRedbeard (~RITReadbe@t410.student.rit.edu) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[19:36] * Netlynx (~jan@lugwv/member/Netlynx) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
[19:36] * Milos|Netbook (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[19:37] * piless (561ec4a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[19:38] * Maroni (~user@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:38] * PiBot sets mode +v Maroni
[19:41] * passstab (~coplon@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:41] * PiBot sets mode +v passstab
[19:48] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[19:48] * whyz (~e@h145n7-n-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:48] * PiBot sets mode +v whyz
[19:49] * shadowe989 (~shadowe98@74-32-106-129.dr01.rmny.wv.frontiernet.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:49] * PiBot sets mode +v shadowe989
[19:50] * shadowe989 (~shadowe98@74-32-106-129.dr01.rmny.wv.frontiernet.net) Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
[19:51] * shadowe989 (~shadowe98@74-32-106-129.dr01.rmny.wv.frontiernet.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:51] * PiBot sets mode +v shadowe989
[19:53] * MrJackson (~MrJackson@c-174-59-171-89.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:53] * PiBot sets mode +v MrJackson
[19:54] * customtronics (~puppy@user-12l2tpe.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[19:55] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:55] * PiBot sets mode +v LWK_mac
[19:55] * ragna_ (~ragna@e180048108.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:55] * PiBot sets mode +v ragna_
[19:58] * zleap (~psutton@dsl-217-155-46-222.zen.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:58] * PiBot sets mode +v zleap
[19:58] * netcarver (~netcarver@ has joined #raspberrypi
[19:58] * PiBot sets mode +v netcarver
[19:58] * netcarver (~netcarver@ has left #raspberrypi
[19:58] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:59] * ragna (~ragna@e180085070.adsl.alicedsl.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[19:59] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:59] * PiBot sets mode +v LWK_mac
[20:00] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[20:01] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:01] * PiBot sets mode +v chris_99
[20:05] * NIN101 (~NIN@ has joined #raspberrypi
[20:05] * PiBot sets mode +v NIN101
[20:19] * Maroni (~user@ Quit (Quit: 'quit_message')
[20:19] * cypher708 (cypher707@89-181-199-193.net.novis.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:19] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher708
[20:20] * wej (~j@ Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[20:21] * cypher707 (cypher707@ Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[20:25] * iccanobif (iccanobif@ has joined #raspberrypi
[20:25] * PiBot sets mode +v iccanobif
[20:26] * iccanobif (iccanobif@ Quit (Client Quit)
[20:26] * wej (~j@ has joined #raspberrypi
[20:26] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[20:29] * imnichol (~ian@ has joined #raspberrypi
[20:29] * PiBot sets mode +v imnichol
[20:37] * bikcmp (~jason@defocus/stripper/nakedwanker) Quit (Changing host)
[20:37] * bikcmp (~jason@april-fools/winner/thefsecondest) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:37] * PiBot sets mode +v bikcmp
[20:37] * bikcmp (~jason@april-fools/winner/thefsecondest) Quit (Changing host)
[20:37] * bikcmp (~jason@april-fools/winner/thesecondest) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:37] * PiBot sets mode +v bikcmp
[20:41] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[20:50] * curahack (~curahack@sub-190-88-68ip221.rev.onenet.an) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[20:53] * TheOpenSourcerer (~alord@81-178-65-1.dsl.pipex.com) has left #raspberrypi
[20:55] * wej (~j@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[21:00] * wej (~j@ has joined #raspberrypi
[21:00] * PiBot sets mode +v wej
[21:06] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[21:06] * hamitron (~hamitron@just.screw-the.eu) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:06] * PiBot sets mode +v hamitron
[21:07] * NIN102 (~NIN@ has joined #raspberrypi
[21:07] * PiBot sets mode +v NIN102
[21:08] * piless (561ec4a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[21:08] * PiBot sets mode +v piless
[21:08] <piless> is it out yet?
[21:09] * IT_Sean slaps piless with ukscone
[21:09] <piless> ow
[21:09] * NIN101 (~NIN@ Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[21:09] <piless> That left a mark!
[21:10] <IT_Sean> Good.
[21:11] <piless> Game of thrones season 2 starts tonight!
[21:11] <mkopack> Yup, already set up the HTPC to record the season
[21:12] <piless> I don't live in america so I have to wait a couple of hours after it airs :(
[21:13] <mkopack> Can't wait! Gonna be awesome
[21:15] * ocx (4d2ac9b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[21:15] * PiBot sets mode +v ocx
[21:15] <ocx> in stock yet?
[21:16] <piless> It's a shame the rpi guys didn't do an april fools blogpost. It would have been a great opportunity to rage some neckbeards.
[21:16] <IT_Sean> ocx, the latest news concerning the raspi can be found, as always, on the website.
[21:16] <Space_Man> isn't raspberry pi a very long april fool?
[21:17] <ReggieUK> your mums an april fools joke
[21:17] <piless> Space_Man: No, just a regular fool.
[21:18] * Space_Man 's mum is actually called April
[21:18] <mkopack> As if they aren't all keyed up already? Best not to wake the sleeping giant at this point. If stuff was shipping, it'd be different
[21:18] <piless> Space_Man: No, she isn't.
[21:18] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:18] * PiBot sets mode +v neouf
[21:18] * NIN102 (~NIN@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[21:18] <Space_Man> oh yes she is
[21:19] <piless> mkopack: Well if it was me, I'd want to rage the neckbeards some more.
[21:19] <piless> Space_Man: No, she isn't.
[21:19] <Space_Man> :P
[21:19] <Space_Man> missed the archers earlier :(
[21:19] <ReggieUK> I bet she thinks it's new years day too doesn't she?
[21:20] <piless> Wouldn't new years be colder than this?
[21:27] * Kostic (~skynet@net48-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:27] * PiBot sets mode +v Kostic
[21:29] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[21:30] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:30] * PiBot sets mode +v neouf
[21:32] * Maroni (~user@ has joined #raspberrypi
[21:32] * PiBot sets mode +v Maroni
[21:37] * jardiamj (~jardiamj@ has joined #raspberrypi
[21:37] * PiBot sets mode +v jardiamj
[21:44] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[21:44] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:44] * PiBot sets mode +v nils_2
[21:47] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[21:47] * koda (~vittorio@host129-223-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:47] * PiBot sets mode +v koda
[21:48] * koaschten (~koaschten@31-16-2-45-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:48] * PiBot sets mode +v koaschten
[21:50] * mchou (~quassel@unaffiliated/mchou) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:50] * PiBot sets mode +v mchou
[21:58] * mchou (~quassel@unaffiliated/mchou) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:02] <piless> Anyone got a tutorial link to setting up rpi within a qemu environment within virtualbox?
[22:04] <mkopack> piless: give me a sec to find it
[22:05] <piless> mkopack: I know I saw one on the forums a while back, but I'm struggling to find it.
[22:05] <mkopack> http://www.cnx-software.com/2012/02/18/raspberry-pi-releases-1st-sd-card-image-debian-how-to-use-it-in-the-emulator/
[22:05] <mkopack> that has some instructions...
[22:06] <mkopack> you'll need to do qemu --cpu ? (IIRC) to see if you need to recompile qemu to get the Arm 1176 support added in. I had to do that
[22:06] <mkopack> there's another article on that same site that shows how to do that
[22:06] <mkopack> Hope this helps
[22:07] <piless> mkopack: Thanks
[22:15] * passstab (~coplon@c-68-80-37-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:17] * Laogeodritt| (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:17] * Laogeodritt (~Laogeodri@wikipedia/Laogeodritt) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[22:17] * PiBot sets mode +v Laogeodritt|
[22:21] * phantone (~destroy@a95-92-89-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:21] * PiBot sets mode +v phantone
[22:21] * phantoxe (~destroy@a95-92-89-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[22:21] * phantone is now known as phantoxe
[22:22] * IT_Sean (~IT_Sean@applefritter/IRCStaff/UltimateMacUser1) Quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
[22:24] * katnegermis_ (~katnegerm@ip2.c648.frb194.cust.comxnet.dk) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[22:26] * mdavey (~chatzilla@host217-35-75-188.in-addr.btopenworld.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:27] * mchou (~quassel@unaffiliated/mchou) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:27] * PiBot sets mode +v mchou
[22:29] * Hopsy (~Hopsy@unaffiliated/hopsy) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[22:31] * Kostic (~skynet@net48-0-245-109.mbb.telenor.rs) Quit (Quit: ???????? ???? ??????????)
[22:32] * khildin (~khildin@ip-80-236-223-213.dsl.scarlet.be) Quit (Quit: I'm gone, bye bye)
[22:36] * kcj (~casey@unaffiliated/kcj1993) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:36] * PiBot sets mode +v kcj
[22:39] * maahes (~maahes@cpe-98-148-196-131.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:39] * PiBot sets mode +v maahes
[22:42] * chod (~chod@toy-town.demon.co.uk) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[22:43] * chod (~chod@toy-town.demon.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:43] * PiBot sets mode +v chod
[22:51] * ocx (4d2ac9b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[22:57] * folays (folays@hyrule.folays.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[23:01] * jamesglanville (~james@ Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[23:02] * zl0xy (~Endgame@brn29-2-88-164-42-133.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Quit: Quitte)
[23:02] * a5m0 (~Arc@unaffiliated/a5m0) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[23:02] * Arc_ (~Arc@cpe-173-175-206-85.tx.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:02] * PiBot sets mode +v Arc_
[23:04] * mikey_w (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:04] * PiBot sets mode +v mikey_w
[23:05] * Arc_ is now known as a5m0
[23:05] * mike_ (~mike@c-71-63-115-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:05] * PiBot sets mode +v mike_
[23:05] * a5m0 (~Arc@cpe-173-175-206-85.tx.res.rr.com) Quit (Changing host)
[23:05] * a5m0 (~Arc@unaffiliated/a5m0) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:05] * PiBot sets mode +v a5m0
[23:05] * mike_ is now known as Guest8998
[23:07] * johnLAPACHE (~lpche@juv34-1-82-225-182-193.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[23:08] * zaunkoenig (~zaunkoeni@mnhm-4d013850.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:08] * PiBot sets mode +v zaunkoenig
[23:11] * piless (561ec4a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[23:14] * johnLAPACHE (~lpche@juv34-1-82-225-182-193.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:14] * PiBot sets mode +v johnLAPACHE
[23:21] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[23:23] * zaunkoenig (~zaunkoeni@mnhm-4d013850.pool.mediaWays.net) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
[23:23] * chod (~chod@toy-town.demon.co.uk) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[23:23] * chod (~chod@toy-town.demon.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:23] * PiBot sets mode +v chod
[23:26] * DaMummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:26] * PiBot sets mode +v DaMummy
[23:28] * Maroni (~user@ Quit (Quit: 'quit_message')
[23:30] * Da|Mummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[23:30] * Laogeodritt| is now known as Laogeodritt
[23:32] * neouf (~neouf@charles.bijon.fr) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:32] * PiBot sets mode +v neouf
[23:37] * j11c (~j11c@ Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[23:38] * DaMummy (~Veki@cpe-76-190-200-98.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[23:43] * folays (folays@hyrule.folays.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:43] * PiBot sets mode +v folays
[23:43] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8-dev)
[23:54] * JonSeals (~Jon@99-158-225-217.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:54] * JonSeals (~Jon@99-158-225-217.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:54] * PiBot sets mode +v JonSeals

These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.