#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2012-04-11

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[17:28] * RaspberryPiBot (~PircBot@idioticphotos.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:28] * Topic is '"unofficial" discussion channel for the RaspberryPi http://www.raspberrypi.org/ the $25 computer -- FAQs: http://goo.gl/zny3G -- Wiki & Specs: http://goo.gl/xLrO7 -- logs available at http://srv.datagutt1.com/ -- Bot AUP http://goo.gl/71h0e -- This is a PG13 channel. Please remember there may be kids in here. -- More fun than a speadsheet, Tastier than chocolate dipped bacon'
[17:28] * Set by ukscone on Fri Jan 27 19:13:51 CET 2012
[17:28] -NickServ- You are now identified for DataBot.
[17:28] * PiBot sets mode +v RaspberryPiBot
[17:28] <mkopack> Ok??? that's cool??? Make it easier to ID what's going on
[17:29] <piless> <monpjc|work> solder in dead naff - looks like lowest grad Pb free stuff they could find
[17:29] <mkopack> This one Reggie: http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-and-custard-engineers-first-hands-review
[17:29] * _sundar_ (~sundar@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:29] <piless> <monpjc|work> its a nice layout, bit of cheat saying the board is credit card size with connectors hanging over the side
[17:32] <hamitron> can cut them off if it annoys them that much ;/
[17:32] <hamitron> although, don't most motherboard specs not take the connector overhang into account?
[17:33] <mkopack> Yeah, that's kinda a dumb complaint??? the guy seems to nit pick over unimportant things, and then complains about things that aren't RPi hardware related, but rather Linux things
[17:34] <piless> hamitron: Wouldn't they have to? For case designers?
[17:34] <piless> mkopack: Yeah shirro was stroking his cock the whole time
[17:35] <shirro> hey, we got some info out of him
[17:35] <piless> rofl
[17:35] <ReggieUK> yeah, it is the 'debian thing' review :D
[17:35] <hamitron> like "I can't see a market for the R-Pi, because it doesn't run my favourite OS ----- Signed Windows Fanboi"
[17:35] <piless> hamitron: Could be a mactard
[17:35] * hamitron shudders
[17:36] <shirro> there will be heaps of that. to be fair plonking someone in front of an unoptimised bog standard distro on such a fiddly under resourced bit of hardware is asking for bad reviews. put chromeos, android or ios on it with a twitter client and he would have loved it
[17:36] <piless> Well the led thing was useful, I didn#t know that before
[17:37] <Hexxeh> i wonder how much cheaper these devices will be once they're manufactured in huge scale
[17:37] <Hexxeh> surely the cost price should drop some
[17:37] * grimboy (~grimboy@78-86-152-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:37] * PiBot sets mode +v grimboy
[17:37] <piless> shirro: Maybe they should be asking some linux questions before handing out the boards willy-nilly to random reviewers
[17:38] <Hourd> Hexxeh: they said they would drop the price when they became cheaper to make (aka mass production)
[17:38] <shirro> the thing is they are destined to much harsher critics than him.
[17:38] <Hexxeh> Hourd: RS and Farnell are putting massive orders in, surely that point is now?
[17:38] <Hourd> they havnt sold any yet
[17:38] <hamitron> just imagine how much piless will moan, when he gets his ;)
[17:39] <Hexxeh> mine might actually arrive tomorrow :V
[17:39] <piless> Hexxeh: Not much cheaper, from what I understand the profit margins on this device were originally quite slim because the foundation is a charity. But RS/Farnell may be able to make them for cheaper
[17:39] <mkopack> Yeah, RS+Farnell are probably able to get the components in larger bulk quantity and thus lower per-part cost than the RPF could
[17:39] <hamitron> I was thinking about "what if the r-pi became standard"
[17:40] <hamitron> and it is actually bad in some ways
[17:40] <piless> hamitron: It could be worse. Imagine if they were the price as every other small arm computer, the sheevaplug, panda, beagle, they're all way too expensive
[17:40] <hamitron> I mean, it will be basically flattening any potential profits in the market, so nobody will be able to make big enough profits to invest in improving the hardware
[17:41] * ReggieUK (ReggieUK@5ac9ad1f.bb.sky.com) Quit ()
[17:41] <hamitron> we could see stagnation and less choice
[17:41] <shirro> I have been using Linux for nearly 20 years. I love Debian. But to be brutally honest I don't think slapping a standard distro on these with a couple of tweaks is going to go all that well with schools. There is no point getting defensive about it. There is lots of suckage in desktop linux - especially in the toolkits and rendering.
[17:41] <piless> less choice than we have now?
[17:42] <Drazyl> hamitron - could do, but it could also open up a market for better specced devices
[17:42] <hamitron> piless, yeh
[17:42] <piless> I can't wait for the next gen raspberry pi type device, one that would hopefully be able to run as a desktop computer.
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> piless: Easily.
[17:43] <hamitron> Drazyl, open source software I love, but it has made it hard for someone to startup a business based around a lot of consumer type software now
[17:43] <mkopack> shirro: agreed??? To get the most of the the hardware is going to take some serious tweaking and making stuff specific to the hardware so you're not trying to run some gigantic software stack eating up all the RAM just to get a simple text editor or whatever.
[17:43] <hamitron> similar thing
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> piless: If you make 25000 devices - you're quite a way down the price curve.
[17:44] <piless> SpeedEvil: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. For the original 10,000 the price margins were supposidly quite slim, and RS/Farnell probably wouldn't do it if they only got that. They must be able to make them for much cheaper in their own factories.
[17:45] * SphericalCow (user@unaffiliated/sphericalcow) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:45] * PiBot sets mode +v SphericalCow
[17:45] <mkopack> Ouch, Sony is taking it in the popper??? Revised loses estimated to 6.4 BILLION??? ouch
[17:45] <shirro> and being the usual open source nuts we will all run in different directions and start hacking on different toolkits and different fixes. it would be good if we could treat this as a unified platform like the mobile platforms. even the linux mobile platforms are fragmented though.
[17:45] <piless> Song bmg can go fuck a rake
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> piless: the hard part is that if you have a device with a BOM of 5* the pi - the investment needed to get 25000 is quite a lot of cash
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> And then the question is - can you sell 25000 at 125
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> when the Pi is cutting out a lot of the bottom of the market
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> And if you can't, the price goes up to $300, if you make 500, and they don't get made.
[17:46] <piless> Ripping off naive artists
[17:46] <shirro> Perhaps sony will divest their media interests and go back to making good hardware. It has been awhile
[17:46] <mkopack> shirro: You have to admit, that's one area where having full control over the SW/OS (like iOS or even Android) has an advantage.. 1 team, with a common set of goals, working together to make a unified platform.
[17:47] <piless> Weren't they supposed to start making some of their own chips for the latest xperia devices?
[17:47] <piless> Rather than just using mostly samsung parts like everyone else
[17:47] * boop (~boop@unaffiliated/dirigible) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:47] * PiBot sets mode +v boop
[17:47] <piless> Like the iphone is mostly samsung parts.
[17:48] <mchou> shirro: what you you talking about re debian?
[17:48] <shirro> yeah. pity Nokia is screwed. I have always been a gtk/gnome user but I wouldn't mind if the qt guys just came in and said - hey this is the toolkit everyone is developing with for the Pi - it is accelerated all the way through and it will just work.
[17:48] <mchou> shirro: debian has one of the best customizations for ARM
[17:48] <piless> mkopack: In my opinion the foundation should be more into developing the software instead of just handing the hardware to the community
[17:49] <fALSO> they should think about getting the graphics driver
[17:49] <fALSO> open sourced
[17:49] <mkopack> piless: Maybe, but I don't think that's their strong suit??? Not a lot of experience in that...
[17:49] <piless> nokia own qt don't they?
[17:49] <shirro> mchou: just saying, as much as I love and will continue to use Debian and probably will until I go into land fill, the Pi really deserves a slick modern consistant interface not 20 years of history dumped on it
[17:49] <fALSO> because the linux kernel is always changing APIs
[17:49] <mchou> piless: you know what's funny? based on all the missteps so far I'm prety certain the folks involved are NOT sw folks
[17:49] * BCMM (~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm) Quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
[17:49] <fALSO> i dont think broadcom will start upgrading the driver everytime the linux kernel changes
[17:49] <fALSO> BLOBS are evil
[17:50] <mchou> piless: it's pretty clear to me these are HW folks who are terribly clueless about sw
[17:50] <mchou> shirro: you got a better recommendation?
[17:50] <piless> mchou: Exactly. It would be nice if they had a software vision, but it's almost if they don't care. They just pick the currently best looking OS out of the community developed crop
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> piless: The foundation are two people.
[17:51] <piless> SpeedEvil: I'm sure there's more than two
[17:51] <mchou> SpeedEvil: ostensibly one of them is a SW guy
[17:51] <piless> SpeedEvil: A handful at least
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> For large values of two
[17:51] <SpeedEvil> IIRC 4 on the charities website.
[17:51] <piless> then why are you saying two, if you already know four?
[17:52] <mchou> piless: lol
[17:52] <mchou> 2~~4 good to zeroth approximation
[17:54] * diplo- (~diplo@cpc2-trow1-0-0-cust1447.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Certainly not the dozens you'd need to develop the software
[17:54] * SphericalCow (user@unaffiliated/sphericalcow) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:54] <mchou> SpeedEvil: nobody is asking them to develop sw
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> (04:47:33 PM) piless: mkopack: In my opinion the foundation should be more into developing the software instead of just handing the hardware to the community
[17:55] <hamitron> shirro, heck, some of us want different OS
[17:55] <hamitron> :)
[17:55] <shirro> mchou: no, not for a general purpose distro for hackers. I like the flexibility of distros. it is just that that flexibility is going to come with a huge cost. I don't think any current linux distro is really good enough. not because I hate linux, but because this thing has mobile level performance and a mobile graphics pipeline and it is going to be crap for running most linux desktop stuff.
[17:55] <mchou> SpeedEvil: people are asking them to be at least somewhat knowledgeable re SW
[17:55] <hamitron> different kernel I mean
[17:55] * dormant (~dormant@d54C1A06E.access.telenet.be) Quit (Quit: dormant)
[17:55] <mchou> shirro: what do you think droid is?
[17:56] <hamitron> embedded linux will be cool I think
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[17:56] * PiBot sets mode +v SphericalCow
[17:56] <mkopack> SpeedEvil: Yeah, I saw??? I just don't think that's where the strength in the tallent of the RPF lies.. And without hardware the software is meaningless
[17:56] <mchou> shirro: just be thankful they didn't shove fedora down your throat
[17:56] <shirro> mchou: yeah. I think I would lean more too meego or something.
[17:57] * SpeedEvil lols.
[17:57] * SphericalCow (user@2a01:7e00::13:dbcd) Quit (Changing host)
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[17:57] * PiBot sets mode +v SphericalCow
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately, meego went.
[17:57] <mchou> webOS is open source too :)
[17:57] <hamitron> everyone knows the real geeks will use linuxfromscratch
[17:57] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:57] <hamitron> ;)
[17:57] * PiBot sets mode +v nils_2
[17:58] <piless> mchou: Droid is a marketing term used by Verizon for their android line and shouldn't be used to refer to android as a whole.
[17:58] <shirro> yep. but have you seen those qt quick demos on youtube. they are pushing some fancy looking stuff out of the Pi running Javascript!
[17:59] <piless> shirro: javascript?
[17:59] <piless> webOS is only open-source because HP gave up on it.
[17:59] <xlq> Is WebOS free software?
[18:00] <mkopack> Yeah, I just don't see what is so great about that Fedora build? Seems like it's REALLY slow, and we haven't heard squat about it since the "release" back in early March??? No news, no updates, no "we're working on improving XYZ", etc.
[18:00] <mchou> screw fedora
[18:00] <mkopack> I think most people will go with the Debian or Arch builds??? Way faster
[18:00] <mchou> who needs that bloatware
[18:01] <piless> mkopack: Is it still the "official" os?
[18:01] <mkopack> I haven't seen/heard anything to the contrary
[18:01] <mchou> freaking lennart poettering and the horse he rode in on
[18:01] <shirro> piless: qmlviewer is a runtime that reads in json to setup the ui and you can write event handlers in javascript. all the cool kids are using javascript.
[18:01] <mkopack> the Broadcomm guys all seem to be Debian though
[18:02] <chronofast> javascript ftw!
[18:03] <piless> can javascript use acceleration?
[18:04] <fALSO> now
[18:04] <fALSO> no
[18:04] <chronofast> mchou have you seen meteor?
[18:04] <fALSO> javascript can just be slow as hell
[18:04] <fALSO> on a 700mhz its really the best way
[18:04] <fALSO> dont use low level languages, use slow ass high level languages
[18:04] <fALSO> thats the way to go
[18:04] <fALSO> then overclock the raspberry pi
[18:04] <fALSO> because hello world runs slowly
[18:05] <chronofast> mchou, check it out: http://www.meteor.com/screencast
[18:05] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[18:05] <piless> isn't the fedora build really outdated?
[18:05] <shirro> qmlviewer just has all their nice optimised gles rendered scene graph stuff compiled in so you can script it. Why not? You can write the performance critical parts in c++ if you need to later.
[18:05] <mchou> chronofast: I've seen it
[18:05] <chronofast> brought a tear to my eye
[18:06] <shirro> clutter does the same
[18:07] <shirro> sort of
[18:07] <chronofast> it's not just about meteor, but combining that with the node.js world
[18:08] <xlq> chronofast: What's that?
[18:08] <xlq> (That page is just a bunch of script tags.)
[18:08] <shirro> I tried to write a project in node.js but my screen wasn't wide enough
[18:10] <fALSO> lol
[18:10] <fALSO> too much{}()
[18:10] * M0GHY (~peterholl@ Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[18:11] <hotwings> javascript yuk
[18:11] * hamitron is intending to learn javascript soon
[18:11] <xlq> JavaScript is like Lua but with a completely borked type system.
[18:12] <mkopack> Javascript - the bastard child of people who didn't want to learn REAL Java
[18:12] <hamitron> it is better than Java and Flash though
[18:12] <hamitron> ;)
[18:12] <piless> mkopack: Java has got nothing to to with javascript
[18:12] <mchou> mkopack: why would anyone want to program java these days
[18:12] <piless> lol
[18:13] <piless> mchou: mkopack is a java dev
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[18:13] * PiBot sets mode +v mrcan
[18:13] <mchou> mkopack: not only do you have to many sit-ups but you might end up getting sued by Oracle
[18:13] <hamitron> java is cross platform I suppose
[18:13] <piless> you're not supposed to do sit-ups anyway, it's all about crunches nowadays
[18:13] <mchou> since they maintain java API is copyrighted
[18:13] <hamitron> java also lets you run minecraft <3 ;)
[18:14] <fALSO> lol
[18:14] <fALSO> aids
[18:14] <mkopack> Why WOULDN'T you do Java?
[18:14] <xlq> Java's type system is horrible.
[18:14] <mchou> because it's a total PITA
[18:14] * hamitron is male and would "do" anything
[18:14] <mkopack> ????
[18:14] <fALSO> lol java
[18:14] <shirro> In this old demo they are typing glsl but what you can't quite make out is that it is in a string in some json. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-vBbqamNBU
[18:14] <mkopack> compared to???
[18:14] <xlq> mkopack: Compared to that of OCaml, Haskell, Ada, ATS, ...
[18:15] <aditsu> java is great
[18:15] <mchou> mkopack: python, for one :)
[18:15] <mkopack> And just how popular and still in use are ANY of those languages???
[18:15] <xlq> OCaml, very. Haskell, very. Ada, not so much. ATS, still very researchey.
[18:15] <mkopack> python is nice, but I hate how 1) the whole "tab indents = blocks" and 2) lack of types at all
[18:15] <hamitron> javascript + HTML5 ftw
[18:15] <hamitron> ;)
[18:15] <xlq> Besides, popularity doesn't mean a language is great, unfortunately.
[18:16] <hamitron> yeh, look at windows
[18:16] <mchou> mkopack: what, you complaining about python style indents?
[18:16] <hamitron> :/
[18:16] <xlq> Uh, Java has no closures, no partials, no multiple return values or structurally typed tuples, ...
[18:16] <piless> hamitron: windows 7 is actually pretty good
[18:16] <hamitron> piless, all of the MS Windows are good
[18:16] <mkopack> Java has nearly the performance of C/C++ now??? it's strongly typed, has a robust and large standard library for doing all sorts of things...
[18:16] <hamitron> but I don't think any of them are as good as the market share suggests
[18:16] <xlq> You could say all that about a lot of languages.
[18:16] <hamitron> ;)
[18:17] <piless> mkopack: gabarge management
[18:17] <shirro> ecmascript is just scheme with c-like syntax a few really bad design mistakes and a crap name
[18:17] <mchou> mkopack: none of that matters when you have to do many sit-ups just to get started
[18:17] <mkopack> mchou: Yeah, I've never been a fan of how you use indents in python to do code blocks??? WAY too error prone. I prefer { } to do that. Whitespace should NEVER be a syntax requirement
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[18:17] * PiBot sets mode +v nils_2
[18:17] <xlq> What's actually good about the Java language itself?
[18:17] <mkopack> xlq: Java 7 DOES have closures???
[18:17] <Hexxeh> don't suppose anyone knows about pathfinding algorithms for racing games? :P
[18:18] <Hexxeh> need to figure out how to do it for a uni assignment
[18:18] <xlq> mkopack: Oh, thank goodness for that.
[18:18] <mkopack> And all that other stuff you listed can be done in different ways
[18:18] <Hexxeh> using a series of ordered waypoints and just navigating between them at the moment, not finished implementing but it seems a bit too simple to work
[18:18] <piless> Hexxeh: Just set them to follow the right wall, works every time.
[18:18] <xlq> mkopack: Yes, very verbose ways.
[18:18] <hamitron> Hexxeh, there are lots of ways
[18:18] <Hexxeh> hamitron: simplest of them being?
[18:19] <mkopack> Well, just saying, Java has it's strengths and the performance is way faster than Python in most cases...
[18:19] <hamitron> a pre-defined racing line I suppose
[18:19] <mkopack> Python is great, and I do use it...
[18:19] <Hexxeh> hamitron: but then won't ships crash into eachother as they fight for the line?
[18:19] <mkopack> I like Python when prototyping and such, but I wouldn't build a big system with it.
[18:19] <hamitron> well, the AI has to have some conditions, that let it move away from the line
[18:19] <xlq> mkopack: But what's actually good about the Java language compared to others?
[18:19] <hotwings> [09:16:30] <mkopack> mchou: Yeah, I've never been a fan of how you use indents in python to do code blocks??? WAY too error prone. I prefer { } to do that. Whitespace should NEVER be a syntax requirement <== +1!
[18:20] <xlq> Not the libraries, the language.
[18:20] <hotwings> using whitespace for syntax is idiotic
[18:20] <xlq> Just wondering why you actually like it.
[18:20] <mchou> hotwings: that's completely ridiculous
[18:20] <hamitron> Hexxeh, it is interesting to look back over the history of racing games, and see how new ideas have improved the "AI"
[18:20] <xlq> [17:17] <mkopack> I like Python when prototyping and such, but I wouldn't build a big system with it.
[18:21] <mchou> I'd take white space requirement over doing meaningless sit-ups any day
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[18:21] <xlq> I find with dynamic typing I start off really quickly and get slower and slower as my types become less and less organised :-\
[18:21] <chronofast> Hexxeh take a look at craig reynolds work over at red3d on steering behaviors, that should be a great start, and opensteer
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[18:21] <aditsu> whitespace syntax should be reserved to esoteric languages
[18:21] <mkopack> xlq: Strongly typed (which I consider a +), pretty clear syntax, if you learn Java it's not that hard to then pick up C++, garbage collection is VERY nice??? I don't know I mean, for the most part most languages all do the same things, just in slightly different ways...
[18:21] <chronofast> i loves me some steering behaviors
[18:22] <piless> just follow the right wall, best ai ever
[18:22] <mkopack> mchou: and what do you mean by meaningless sit-ups?
[18:22] <aditsu> java has a pretty good type system
[18:22] <hamitron> sit-ups are also good for you ;)
[18:22] <hotwings> mchou - you probably like peas too
[18:22] <piless> mkopack: xml sit-ups?
[18:22] <chronofast> json-ups
[18:23] <mchou> mkopack: write a (simple) program in python and java. time how long each takes you to write
[18:23] <hamitron> chronofast, like that :D
[18:23] <mchou> and how many lines of code in each
[18:23] <mkopack> Sure, but how often are you writing a "simple" program ?
[18:23] * cypher708 (cypher707@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[18:23] <xlq> mkopack: Yes, I like strong and static typing too.
[18:23] <mchou> mkopack: I use simple program as example
[18:23] <hotwings> mchou - do brackets slow you down that much?
[18:23] <mkopack> Most of the stuff I work on is minimum a couple K line of code
[18:23] <mchou> it doesn't matter if it's hard or simple
[18:23] <chronofast> coffeescript ftw!
[18:23] <mchou> results are the same
[18:24] <piless> visual basic ftw
[18:24] <xlq> The thing is though, all Java stuff seems to be a very complicated mess of loads of classes. "Spaghetti with meatballs".
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[18:24] <mchou> now way to be productive using java
[18:24] <shirro> mchou: after watching notch live code my respect for java has improved. I just wouldn't use it myself
[18:24] <xlq> In ways that'd be a lot simpler in other language.s
[18:24] <mchou> no*
[18:24] <mkopack> And when you start talking those sorts of system sizes, the structure requirements of Java becomes a lot more of a help than a hinderence
[18:24] <hamitron> tbh guys, all prgramming languages can be complicated.... note it is good to document your code from the start ;)
[18:24] <chronofast> mchou that live code example of notches is exactly what i thought of with meteor + node
[18:25] <aditsu> mchou: python beats java in simple programs, but java scales much better
[18:25] <aditsu> (and I'm not talking about performance)
[18:25] <xlq> mkopack: Well, perhaps it's about how one thinks about programs. Java's meatball way of thinking about programs doesn't match mine at all.
[18:25] <hamitron> java certainly "scales" across all my system memory ;)
[18:25] <mchou> aditsu: that's interesting when google uses python
[18:25] <xlq> I prefer much more expressive type systems, and code/data separation.
[18:25] <mchou> aditsu: lol
[18:25] <aditsu> mchou: google uses a lot of things
[18:25] <chronofast> no one writes closure in here? big $$$$
[18:26] <hamitron> real men use C and assembly
[18:26] <mchou> aditsu: sure, but it uses python for the stuff that NEEDS scaling
[18:26] <hamitron> nothing more to it :/
[18:26] <aditsu> mchou: actually they use C++ a lot
[18:26] <mkopack> xlq: Well, different strokes for different folks. It's also probably a lot to do with experience with a language??? I CAN do python, but it takes me personally a lot longer to code something in python than in Java because I don't use it as often. I basically think in Java when I see a problem so it's 2nd nature to write it in that to me
[18:26] <shirro> the thing is you can use java like a normal person without all the xml and bullshit corporate stuff. watching it used in ludum dare was a surprise. I never thought it could be fast. The live code/reloading thing his ide was doing was cool.
[18:26] <hamitron> bbl
[18:26] <mchou> aditsu: they use java more than they do C++
[18:26] * Kyzz (~quassel@cpe-24-166-81-109.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[18:26] * johnLAPACHE (~lpche@ Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[18:27] <xlq> mkopack: Have you tried some functional programming?
[18:27] <mchou> aditsu: I don't know where you are getting your info
[18:27] <hamitron> I agree with mkopack, the way you think affects it a lot too
[18:27] <hamitron> o/
[18:27] <aditsu> mchou: from my friend who works there
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[18:27] * PiBot sets mode +v jezyk_pl
[18:27] <mkopack> xlq: Yup, done Scheme/Lisp in the past as well.. I can do that, but I often need to immerse myself in it full bore for a week or two to start feeling comfortable in it
[18:28] <mkopack> because you have to thikn about problems VERY differently when you use those
[18:28] <xlq> Hmm. Although Lisps are dynamically typed, :(
[18:29] <shirro> xlq: I think most lisps have more idea of what the type of things are than C does.
[18:29] <xlq> True :)
[18:29] <mkopack> Just like, I CAN do C++, but a die hard C++ dev would scream and bitch looking at my C++ code because I write it in a very Java-ish way since that's what I'm used to thinking.
[18:32] <piless> ahh there's nothing like a good bowel movement
[18:32] <aditsu> mkopack: it's like you're describing my experience and opinions :p
[18:32] <mkopack> lol
[18:32] * felgru (~felgru@xdsl-78-35-220-228.netcologne.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:32] * PiBot sets mode +v felgru
[18:32] <aditsu> (the whole conversation)
[18:32] <shirro> I wish C had grown up and they had added closures and coroutines and channels and fixed the sytnax a bit and added gc and it still worked ok on a 32 bit processor. that would be cool
[18:33] * hughg (~textual@ Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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[18:34] <aditsu> shirro: and it would become java/scala/something similar
[18:34] <mkopack> god, I've coded in more languages than I care to think about??? BASIC, C, C++, PASCAL, MIPS assembly, Java, javascript, C#, Obj-C, Lisp, Python, Scheme, Smalltalk-80, REXX, Prolog, Fortran, probably a few more I've forgotten...
[18:34] <xlq> shirro: Sounds suspiciously like Go. Doesn't Go work on 32-bit arches?
[18:34] * stuk_gen (~quassel@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:34] <piless> new blog post!
[18:34] <shirro> xlq: it has gc issues in large projects. has been hitting the news recently
[18:34] <Matt> mkopack: jeez, prolog and rexx
[18:34] <Matt> that's a blast from the past
[18:35] <aditsu> piless: you're late :p
[18:35] * jezyk_pl (~mp-jez@cpc4-broo7-2-0-cust84.14-2.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:35] <xlq> shirro: Oh.
[18:35] <mkopack> Well, the prolog was mainly for a programming languages class in school. The REXX was back when I was working at IBM for the 96 Olympics and we used some REXX scripting on OS/2 to automate some of the software testing for the scorekeeping systems
[18:36] <mkopack> Oh, forgot about Lotusscript!
[18:36] <mkopack> (I did Lotus Notes 3/4/5 dev work for about 4 years..)
[18:37] <DaQatz> You all "polishing your python"?
[18:37] <DaQatz> ;)
[18:37] <mkopack> These days, I'm about 90% Java, 5% C++, 5% python, mostly because that's what we use a lot of at work
[18:37] <DaQatz> Nods
[18:37] <DaQatz> I personally dislike java
[18:37] <shirro> xlq: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/golang-nuts/qxlxu5RZAl0
[18:38] <mkopack> And most of my classes in grad school let me use whatever I want, so I gravitate towards Java since it's what I know best and can produce the fastest in
[18:38] <piless> mkopack: you should be using assembly you fool
[18:39] <xlq> piless: But then you wouldn't be able to drink it.
[18:39] <DaQatz> Asm is handy
[18:39] <xlq> I've heard that assembly language isn't potable.
[18:39] <DaQatz> But uhh
[18:39] <mkopack> I about threw a hissy fit last night trying to convert some C++ code out of my Ray Tracing textbook into Java??? they were doing really screwy stuff with operator overloading to do add/mult of scalars with 3D vectors and such and it just wasn't making sense until I dug into the source code of the overloaded operators to see WTF was happening
[18:39] <DaQatz> Do not use it unless you have a good reason
[18:40] <xlq> Yes, operator overloading can be abused.
[18:40] <xlq> It's still very useful when defining your own numeric types though.
[18:40] <DaQatz> Probably Operator overloading plus returning refernces from the class.
[18:40] <DaQatz> That screws stuff up a lot.
[18:40] <mkopack> sure.. just can make it a bit hard to read and follow wha'ts happening.. I guess I just prefer languages where things are explicit on what's going on
[18:41] <xlq> Especially because of C++'s temporary lifetime extension rules.
[18:41] <piless> mkopack: Can't you find a raytracing in java book?
[18:41] <mkopack> BBIAB. gotta run to get lunch
[18:41] <xlq> mkopack: So do I, but I still can't like Java.
[18:41] <mkopack> piless: I'm using the book they required for class
[18:41] <mkopack> "Ray Tracing from the ground up"
[18:41] <piless> I bet it was $200 too
[18:41] <mkopack> $80
[18:41] <mkopack> BBIAB....
[18:42] <xlq> Wait, does that "$" indicate hexadecimal, or a constant, or a scalar, or.. ?!?! :P
[18:42] <DaQatz> C++ is useful lang, but the "Die hards" tend to have their heads so far up their @$$ that they can peek out their own belly button.
[18:43] <DaQatz> The "C++ way" they whine about is bloated slow, and hard to read.
[18:43] <xlq> Trying to use C++ safely is like trying to wrap knives up in cloth and go running with them.
[18:43] <xlq> The knives always end up sticking out.
[18:43] <DaQatz> And is generally designed so that people who are new to the lang won't screw up old code easily.
[18:43] <xlq> (knives = pointers ;)
[18:44] <DaQatz> Pointers are very usefull.
[18:44] <DaQatz> I use them a lot. But know how to use the tool.
[18:45] <DaQatz> Do not try to bury it levels of abstraction so you don't "poke yourself"
[18:45] <DaQatz> If I did something wrong, I want to know right away so I can fix it.
[18:45] <DaQatz> Not after I write another 5k lines of code that depend on it.
[18:45] <xlq> Pointers can be done safely, either dynamically (GC), statically (linear types), or by assigning pointer types to scopes and doing accessibility checks (what Ada does).
[18:46] * Radium (~carbon@ Quit ()
[18:46] <xlq> Unfortunately the static ways do tend to get a bit difficult to use.
[18:46] <DaQatz> I come from a C background.
[18:47] <DaQatz> Pointers do not scare me.
[18:47] <xlq> I come from a QBASIC background, so ... :P
[18:47] <DaQatz> Evene manually managing them
[18:47] <xlq> DaQatz: They should, considering the number of vulnerabilities that appear in software because of them.
[18:47] <shirro> valgrind
[18:47] <xlq> Not to mention plain bugs :)
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[18:48] * PiBot sets mode +v lars_t_h
[18:48] <xlq> Valgrind can only show the presence of pointer bugs, not prove their absence. And there's a lot that valgrind misses.
[18:48] * |uen| (~uen@p5DCB2799.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[18:48] <xlq> But yes, valgrind is invaluable.
[18:50] <xlq> I hope the pi gets fewer people using the "memory is cheap" and "computers are fast enough nowadays" excuses for poor coding though.
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[18:51] <xlq> http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/radiativeemissions1ghzsetup.jpg
[18:51] <xlq> ^^ That's not "Big Buck Bunny" is it?
[18:51] <xlq> Why is that always used for testing ARM devices? :(
[18:52] <shirro> xlq: it keeps the mpaa away
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[18:52] <piless> xlq: Because they love to circlejerk over open-source
[18:53] <xlq> Uh, "it keeps the MPAA away, because they love to circlejerk over open-source"? :P
[18:53] <piless> Yes
[18:54] <shirro> the mpaa just like to circle jerk i think
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[19:16] <mkopack> back
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[19:19] * PiBot sets mode +v Ypsy
[19:19] <piless> I don't believe you
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[19:23] <Hexxeh> anyone know how the dev boards are being sent?
[19:23] <Hexxeh> royal mail?
[19:24] * jgeboski (~jgeboski@unaffiliated/jgeboski) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[19:24] <piless> hand delivered by eben
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[19:24] * PiBot sets mode +v rodrigo_golive
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[19:24] <mkopack> I'd rather it was Liz :)
[19:25] <_av500_> or the Queen
[19:25] <mkopack> Then you could hold her hostage and demand 1,000,000 RPi's from Eben :)
[19:25] * jgeboski (~jgeboski@unaffiliated/jgeboski) has joined #raspberrypi
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[19:27] <piless> now that the foundation has out-sourced manufacturing what are they actually just going to do?
[19:27] <piless> Just tour round the country just giving talks?
[19:28] <aditsu> that reminds me of a delivery notification I received from a site: "Your CD has been gently taken from our CD Baby shelves with sterilized contamination-free gloves and placed onto a satin pillow. A team of 50 employees inspected your CD and polished it to make sure it was in the best possible condition before mailing. Our world-renowned packing specialist lit a local artisan candle and a...
[19:28] <aditsu> ...hush fell over the crowd as he put your CD into the finest gold-lined box that money can buy." etc. etc.
[19:28] * jgeboski (~jgeboski@unaffiliated/jgeboski) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:29] <shirro> piless: work on education resources, design next gen hardware, fix bugs, sell mugs and tshirts
[19:29] <_av500_> handle returns
[19:29] <aditsu> they'll probably do a lot of work with the schools
[19:30] <piless> shirro: Ugh, I really hope they wait a while before designing s sequel
[19:30] <aditsu> and they also promised a case and various goodies
[19:30] <piless> aditsu: Judging by the built quality of the actual pi I'm not very excited about an official case.
[19:30] <shirro> and a camera
[19:30] <piless> Most of the unofficial ones look muuuuuch nicer
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[19:31] <piless> aditsu: The reviewer who was here earlier said the soldering was all shitty
[19:32] <aditsu> piless: feel free to cancel your order :p
[19:33] <mkopack> piless: But did he mean the "rework" soldering (i.e., the Ethernet jack) or all of it?
[19:33] <shirro> said it looked like cheap pb free solder.
[19:33] <piless> mkopack: He wasn't specific
[19:33] <mkopack> Well, it probably HAS to be pb free??? Most places now are required to do RoHS compliance
[19:34] <shirro> he meant lower quality as opposed to more expensive lead free i think
[19:34] <hamitron> if it works it works imo ;)
[19:34] <piless> I asked him to taste it but he didn't get back to me
[19:35] <piless> hamitron: Not if it falls apart within a month
[19:35] * chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[19:35] <aditsu> maybe it did contain pb
[19:35] <hamitron> indeed :/
[19:35] <mkopack> and I don't know, I looked at the pics in the review and it looked fine to me...
[19:36] * hamitron pushes a hit soldering iron up the reviewers nose
[19:36] <hamitron> hot*
[19:36] <piless> hamitron: He's not here anymore.
[19:36] <hamitron> :/
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[19:36] * PiBot sets mode +v nullvo1d
[19:36] <piless> He said he would contact the openelec guys, so maybe we might get a review of openelec
[19:37] <hamitron> tbh, it isn't the accessible solder joints you want to worry about
[19:37] <hamitron> more the ones you can't fix
[19:37] <hamitron> :/
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[19:38] <piless> on 90% of case designs the usb sticks waaay out, a couple of knocks could loosen it from the board
[19:38] <mkopack> I think hat's true with all of the jacks??? gonna need to be careful plugging/unplugging stuff
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[19:39] <aditsu> the ones I can't fix = all of them
[19:39] <hamitron> if the cpu is soldered as badly, a few months of continually warming a cooling and.....
[19:39] <hamitron> ;/
[19:39] <aditsu> I'm quite useless with a soldering iron
[19:39] <mkopack> The SD socket on my panda board is really stiff/tight. I cringe every time I have to swap the card
[19:39] <piless> hamitron: It's not like we're talking about an xbox 360 here, would it really get that hot?
[19:39] <hamitron> I dunno
[19:39] <chronofast_> https://www.google.com/search?q=usb+angle+adaptor
[19:40] <hamitron> I'm guessing it will get warm a little
[19:40] * chronofast (ada79aac@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[19:40] <hamitron> and some cases will certainly lack space/airflow
[19:40] <shirro> the imx53 has a spring loaded mini sd and a normal sized that isn't. I think I always push the non-spring loaded one too hard because there is no feedback.
[19:40] <piless> they said it wouldn't need active cooling
[19:40] * klm[_] (milkman@unaffiliated/klm-/x-7727058) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[19:40] <hamitron> my p120 doesn't need active cooling
[19:40] <hamitron> still too hot to touch ;)
[19:41] <piless> shirro: Is our non-springloaded?
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[19:42] <mkopack> OMG I'm SOO tired of seeing people ask about ICS on RPi....
[19:43] <shirro> mkopack: they have heard about these phone/tablet things haven't they?
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[19:43] <mkopack> No, they all just think "It's ARM so it should be able to run Android/ICS
[19:44] <piless> ice-cream should be able to cool the pi
[19:44] <mkopack> MAYBE one of the old versions, but ICS? I don't think so
[19:44] <mkopack> not enough RAM by a long shot
[19:44] <hamitron> wtf is ICS?
[19:44] <piless> hamitron: android 4
[19:44] <mkopack> Ice Cream Sandwhich version of Android
[19:44] <hamitron> oh
[19:44] <hamitron> I was thinking Internet Connection Sharing
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[19:44] <hamitron> and getting rather confused
[19:44] <hamitron> ;)
[19:45] <mkopack> they don't seem to get that most of us with smart phones made in the last 2 years have more computing power in our pockets than the RPi has
[19:45] <piless> mkopack: To be fair, my phone has almost identical specs and runs cm9 fine
[19:45] <shirro> speak for yourself. my phone has pretty much the same performance as a Pi
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[19:46] <piless> the only issue would be that you'd need graphics accleration for ics
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[19:46] <mkopack> And who's going to write that?
[19:46] <shirro> the only issue would be that you'd need graphics acceleration for linux
[19:46] <piless> mkopack: We could start a bounty on xda
[19:47] * stereohead is now known as stereohead-away
[19:47] <hamitron> <mkopack> And who's going to write that? feel free to contribute ;)
[19:48] <mkopack> Like I'd know where to start? I do AI/Robotics work, not graphics drivers!
[19:49] <mkopack> I showed you guys what I do yesterday
[19:49] <shirro> mkopack: so you work with androids?
[19:49] <piless> lol
[19:49] <piless> shirro: He works at lockheed martin
[19:50] <mkopack> This is the system I'm working on currently - revamping the UI and control system software for the person on the ship that manages the vehicle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us7Wxp0laWQ&feature=youtu.be
[19:50] <shirro> You mean Cyberdyne
[19:51] <mkopack> Or at least that's what I WILL be doing if the damn UI design team ever finishes it's F'ing work
[19:51] <piless> mkopack: why are they using win98?
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[19:58] * mkopack feels like sometimes getting a team to work together on things is like herding cats - nobody seems to feel the need to document and plan out a design, and the people who DO do that (the UI designers) are taking their damn sweet time coming up with something...
[19:58] <_av500_> its secure
[19:58] <mkopack> They can't even really explain the flu conops to me
[19:59] <_av500_> piless: all the people that know how to attack win98 are dead
[19:59] <mkopack> lol
[20:00] * hamitron still runs various win9x
[20:01] <Hexxeh> if my ship in this racing game has a heading vector
[20:01] <Hexxeh> and i know the position of the waypoint
[20:02] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-24-14-224-41.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[20:02] <Hexxeh> is figuring out the angle between the two and then correcting the heading a sensible way of doing AI?
[20:02] <mkopack> Hexxeh: yes.
[20:02] <piless> Hexxeh: just follow the right wall, works every time
[20:03] <Hexxeh> mkopack: okay cool, now to figure out the maths behind that :P
[20:03] * ChrisLenz (~ChrisLenz@c-24-14-224-41.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:03] * PiBot sets mode +v ChrisLenz
[20:03] <mkopack> You just do the trig - "I'm at this X.Y I want to be at THIS X,Y"
[20:03] <hamitron> Hexxeh, maybe a good idea to also look at the angle of the vector between the next 2 points also
[20:03] <Hexxeh> i'm terrible at visualising this stuff
[20:03] <mkopack> Make a right triangle between where you are and where you want to go,
[20:04] <hamitron> so you know a direction you want to be heading, as you get to the next point
[20:04] <mkopack> You know the difference in the X coords, you know the difference in the Y coords. So you know the length of 2 sides of the triangle
[20:04] <mkopack> (draw it out on paper)
[20:04] <mkopack> Tan angle = opposite / adjacent
[20:04] <Hexxeh> is there not some trick you can do with vectors that gives it you?
[20:04] * Milos (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[20:05] <mkopack> So Tan theta = deltaY / DeltaX
[20:05] <Hexxeh> i vaguely remember doing something with the scalar product
[20:05] <mkopack> solve for Theta. that's the heading angle you need
[20:05] * jthunder (~jthunder@ Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[20:05] <mkopack> (assuming you have a 0 = east, 90=north, 180=west, 270=south coordinate system.)
[20:06] <hamitron> Essential Mathematics for Games - A Programmers Guide
[20:06] <hamitron> is very good on this subject
[20:06] <mkopack> If you need standard 0=north, then it gets a little more tricky because you have to do some conversions???
[20:06] * phantoxe (~destroy@a95-92-89-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) Quit ()
[20:07] <mkopack> and remember that in most language, theta is in RADIANS, NOT degrees
[20:07] <Hexxeh> yeah i've got a tiny set of util functions that include conversions in my game
[20:07] <mkopack> ok, cool
[20:07] <Hexxeh> is there not a simpler way of doing this with the dotproduct of the two vectors?
[20:08] <mkopack> Which two vectors?
[20:08] <hamitron> the dot product does it for you with 2 vectorts
[20:08] <mkopack> Heading isn't a vector??? Heading + SPEED is a vector
[20:08] <hamitron> vectors
[20:08] <Hexxeh> something like cos(A) = (a.b)/(|a||b|)
[20:08] <Hexxeh> it's been a while since a level maths...
[20:08] <mkopack> Yeah, that's effectively doing the exact same thing
[20:09] <Hexxeh> i'm using a vector library that has dotproduct as a method of the vector3 object
[20:09] <Hexxeh> so that'd be simpler
[20:09] <mkopack> ah, k
[20:09] <hamitron> if you want efficient path finding for a racer
[20:09] <hamitron> I think you should still look at "wanted approach angle"
[20:09] <mkopack> Yeah, there is that too???
[20:09] <Hexxeh> i should mention everybody else in my class is using the engine's "lookat" method on the model
[20:10] <Hexxeh> so anything i do at this point will look spectacular in comparison
[20:10] <mkopack> Especially if you can't do 0-speed pivot turns
[20:10] <Hexxeh> they're just calling lookat on each waypoint and driving along the local z
[20:10] <hamitron> and to find the fastest racing line damn it! ;)
[20:10] <Hexxeh> mkopack: ships in my game can pivot on the spot :P
[20:10] <Hexxeh> it's hover racing, i can ignore physics occasionally :P
[20:11] <mkopack> ok, then you're fine, although stop-pivot-turns are usually very slow...
[20:11] * hamitron shakes head in disgust
[20:11] <mkopack> You having to do A* path planning at all?
[20:11] <Hexxeh> nope
[20:11] <mkopack> k
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[20:11] * PiBot sets mode +v Simon14
[20:11] <hamitron> I hate AI stuff :/
[20:11] <Hexxeh> really, it's on the assignment spec, but it's silly because all that's expected is that you drive along the local z
[20:11] <hamitron> but it is very interesting
[20:11] <Hexxeh> i can't use lookat because that'd look silly
[20:11] <hamitron> :)
[20:11] <chronofast_> hexxeh, steering behaviors, craig reynolds, red3d, opensteer
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[20:12] <Hexxeh> chronofast_: i don't want to pull in another external library
[20:12] <Hexxeh> i'm already pulling in a big physics library
[20:12] <Hexxeh> don't want to push it :P
[20:12] * SimonT_ (~chatzilla@S010600259c415685.no.shawcable.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:12] * PiBot sets mode +v SimonT_
[20:13] <chronofast_> steering behaviors dont take a huge lib, they are tiny, a couple of simple classes and magic
[20:13] <Hexxeh> i know, but if i use somebody elses library, i won't get credit for it, so it's pointless
[20:13] <mkopack> Be thankful??? I had to BEG my prof to let me make use of anything in the Java standard library for my Ray Tracer - all I wanted to do was have a graphics context and use that to output the final render to a PNG file. He wanted us to write out own PNG output code??? WHY????
[20:13] * SimonT (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/simont) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[20:14] * SimonT_ is now known as SimonT
[20:14] <Hexxeh> Oh dear...
[20:14] <mkopack> He finally said ok when I explained that I wasn't going to use any sort of drawing primitives or anything like that.
[20:15] <mkopack> and that I'd still be doing all the calculations and such, just that I'd be plotting onto a Java Canvas class instead of a 2D array of Color objects??? And then using the build in capabilities to write that canvas out as a file of type PNG
[20:15] <chronofast_> Racing AI + Steering Behaviors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XKphuYviE0
[20:15] * davros (~davros@66-168-116-166.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[20:16] * Simon14 (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/simont) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[20:16] <chronofast_> ohh well, i'm done pushing a point that isn't accepted
[20:16] * Ahti333 (~Ahti333@dslb-088-070-044-140.pools.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:17] <Hexxeh> hmm
[20:17] <Hexxeh> what i actually have is a vector and a point really
[20:17] <Hexxeh> the waypoint only has a position, no direction
[20:17] <hamitron> you get the direction from the waypoint after
[20:17] <hamitron> ;)
[20:18] <chronofast_> steering behaviors + waypoints: http://rocketmandevelopment.com/2010/07/14/steering-behaviors-path-following/
[20:18] <Hexxeh> head->Explode();
[20:18] <chronofast_> ok, done
[20:18] * warddr (~warddr@Wikipedia/Warddr) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[20:19] <hamitron> chronofast_, looks good
[20:19] <chronofast_> naa, it's beating a dead horse
[20:19] <mkopack> Hell, you can just do "bang-bang" steering - just keep constantly calculating which way you need to turn to head towards the waypoint, and turn that way while moving forward, the next cycle when you recalculate, if you're too far in the other direction to reverse your turn to the other direction, and so on
[20:19] <hamitron> the general idea I mean
[20:20] <hamitron> mkopack, understeer ftl ;/
[20:20] <Hexxeh> mkopack: that's basically what i'm doing
[20:20] <mkopack> That will cause you to "wobble" on either side of the direct line, but it'll work, and generally be fast because you don't have to stop to turn to get directly perfectly allighed
[20:20] <mkopack> aligned with the vector before moving forward
[20:20] <Hexxeh> just trying to figure out how to decide which direction to turn in
[20:21] <hamitron> dot product all the way
[20:21] <mkopack> calculate angle from where you are to the waypoint, and compare to your heading. Take the difference of the 2 angles. If it's + you turn one way, if it's - you turn the other. If it's 0 (good luck) you don't turn at all
[20:22] * oberling_ (~oberling@brln-4d0c37a0.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:22] * PiBot sets mode +v oberling_
[20:22] <Hexxeh> it's calculating that angle i'm trying to figure out, using dot product
[20:22] <Hexxeh> but also
[20:22] <Hexxeh> having a -+5 degree tolerance where it doesn't steer might smooth it a bit
[20:22] <mkopack> yeah, otherwise it's just going to keep slamming back and forth. but you also need to adjust that based on how far you are from the waypoint
[20:22] <hamitron> I'd use the dot product to work out the difference in angle between your heading vector and the desired direction
[20:23] <mkopack> The closer you are to the waypoint, the less tolerance for being off you can afford
[20:23] <mkopack> otherwise you'll never hit the waypoint, you'll just keep missing it
[20:23] <hamitron> it is less maths
[20:23] <hamitron> ;)
[20:25] <Hexxeh> so angle is inverse cosine of a.b/|a||b|?
[20:25] <Hexxeh> a being ship facing vector and b being waypoint position?
[20:25] * oberling (~oberling@brln-4d0c21c3.pool.mediaWays.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[20:25] <hamitron> yes
[20:26] <Hexxeh> right, i'll try this then see how it works
[20:26] <hamitron> hang on
[20:26] <hamitron> no
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[20:26] * PiBot sets mode +v cypher708
[20:26] <hamitron> b is waypoint-current_point
[20:27] <Hexxeh> oh, of course
[20:28] * cypher707 (cypher707@89-181-196-106.net.novis.pt) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[20:28] <hamitron> gl, I need to find some more food
[20:28] <hamitron> :)
[20:29] <Hexxeh> cheers :)
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[20:32] * mkopack (~mkopack@173-133-46-118.pools.spcsdns.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[20:36] * mkopack (~mkopack@174-150-212-6.pools.spcsdns.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:36] * PiBot sets mode +v mkopack
[20:37] <piless> How do you ignore pibot?
[20:38] <piless> I've tried and it ignores him when you do !g or !w but he still does his voice shit
[20:38] <piless> !w
[20:38] <PiBot> piless: in Istanbul, Istanbul Province. Temp 10??C. Condition: Clear, Humidity: 66%, Later 12??C - 7??C. Condition: Chance of Rain.
[20:39] <Matt> you mean /ignore in your client?
[20:39] <piless> Yes
[20:39] <Matt> it's usually an option you have to pass to /ignore
[20:39] <Matt> so it doesn't display mode changes for that user
[20:39] <Matt> what client?
[20:40] <piless> xchat-wdk
[20:40] <Matt> hrm, been ages since I used xchat :)
[20:40] <Matt> try /help ignore
[20:40] <piless> I complained to IT_Sean about the ridiculousness of having a bot +v everyone and him and reggie sneered at me and said to ignore him.
[20:40] <Matt> 'sok, I don't see the point of +v'ing everyone either
[20:40] <Matt> not when you can just +q
[20:41] <piless> Or -m
[20:41] <Matt> that's why we added +q to the network
[20:41] * Plankalkuel (~paethon@chello213047250034.tirol.surfer.at) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[20:41] <piless> He said it's so he can add me to a list of people for pibot not to voice.
[20:41] * Matt nods
[20:41] <Matt> quite :)
[20:42] <Matt> but +q does the same on a channel level
[20:42] <Matt> setting #whatever +q piless!*@* prevents you sending text to the channel
[20:42] <piless> types - PRIV, CHAN, NOTI, CTCP, DCC, INVI, ALL. options - NOSAVE, QUIET
[20:42] <Matt> ALL prolly does what you want
[20:43] <piless> I already have pibot!*@* on all.
[20:43] <Matt> hrm, I dunno then :)
[20:43] * Matt doesn't use /ignore
[20:43] <Matt> my head implements it well enough
[20:43] <piless> It says NO under UNIG though.
[20:43] <Matt> yeah, cause unig is unignore IIRC :)
[20:44] <piless> Matt: I don't normally either, but pibot takes up half my scrollback
[20:44] <piless> it's so spammy
[20:45] * piless (~piless@cpc19-epso4-2-0-cust160.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) has left #raspberrypi
[20:45] * piless_ (~piless@cpc19-epso4-2-0-cust160.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:45] * PiBot sets mode +v piless_
[20:45] <piless_> He's still there :(
[20:45] <piless_> The bastard
[20:46] * piless_ is now known as piless
[20:46] <Matt> it may be cause it's an operation on *your* nick :)
[20:46] <piless> Matt: Do you know what really takes the piss?
[20:46] <Matt> see what happens when someone else joins
[20:47] <piless> Matt: No, it's still the same as before.
[20:48] * Matt shrugs
[20:48] <piless> Matt: He used a mute command on my nick.. So if I join using piless I won't get voiced.. And only piless.. If I join with piless_ I get voiced.. And he buggered and forgot he did it.
[20:48] <piless> *buggered off
[20:48] <piless> Who the hell applies a mute command to a nick and not a host?
[20:48] <Matt> be grateful he's not setting +q then
[20:48] <Matt> cause +q knows about nick changes
[20:49] <Matt> being at the server level
[20:49] <Matt> you'd have to /quit and rejoin with a different nick
[20:49] <piless> Matt: He was only doing it to dick around because I said it was stupid to have pibot
[20:51] <Hexxeh> mkopack: hmm, bit of a problem
[20:51] <mkopack> ?
[20:51] <Hexxeh> the angle i get is in the range 0 to 359
[20:51] <piless> Hexxeh: I want chrome os!
[20:52] <mkopack> ok. so you're getting actual angles, not radians. cool
[20:52] <Hexxeh> yeah i converted it
[20:52] <mkopack> What's the problem with that?
[20:52] <Hexxeh> wait
[20:52] <Hexxeh> i just offset it, don't it...
[20:52] <Hexxeh> ie, -180
[20:52] <mkopack> ? I don't follow
[20:52] <Hexxeh> i'm checking for plus or minus 5 degrees
[20:53] <Hexxeh> but as soon as it looks left slightly
[20:53] <Hexxeh> it goes to somewhere near 350 degrees
[20:53] <Hexxeh> and so it gets stuck in a loop of steering in one direction
[20:53] <mkopack> Did you account for the fact that you can go <0 and 359?
[20:53] <mkopack> You have to mod your result
[20:53] <mkopack> to keep it within the 0-359 range
[20:54] <piless> wooo google currents just went international
[20:54] <Hexxeh> mkopack: no, but i'm not sure how
[20:54] * Plankalkuel (~paethon@chello213047250034.tirol.surfer.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:54] * PiBot sets mode +v Plankalkuel
[20:54] <mkopack> So for instance, if you start out with an angle of 4 degrees, and you're checking left/rihght by 5, you're really checking 359-9
[20:54] <mkopack> or more accurately -1 to 9
[20:55] <mkopack> -1 mod 360 = 359
[20:55] <mkopack> which language you using?
[20:55] <Hexxeh> C++
[20:55] <Hexxeh> so %
[20:55] <mkopack> Ok, so use %, yes
[20:55] <Hexxeh> but i don't understand the maths behind what you're doing there
[20:56] <piless> pastebin iy
[20:56] <piless> *it
[20:56] <mkopack> angles around a circle go from 0-359, right?
[20:56] <Hexxeh> yep
[20:56] <mkopack> so, let's say I'm starting at 355 and I turn right 10 degrees. What heading am I at now?
[20:56] <mkopack> 355+10=365
[20:56] <mkopack> But when we got to 360, we reset to 0.
[20:56] <mkopack> right?
[20:56] <Hexxeh> yep
[20:56] <mkopack> That's what MOD does.
[20:57] <Hexxeh> yeah, the remainder
[20:57] <mkopack> It gives you back just the remainder after dividing by the 360
[20:57] <mkopack> So instead of having 365, you get 5
[20:57] <Hexxeh> isn't what i need to do convert the range 0-359 to -180-180 though?
[20:57] <mkopack> which are really the same thing
[20:57] <Hexxeh> or something like that
[20:57] <mkopack> Why would you?
[20:57] <Hexxeh> so then the +-5 makes sense
[20:58] <mkopack> So, you're trying to say that if I'm currently heading in direction of 45 degrees, (North East) and the waypoint is within 40 to 50 degrees, I'm fine and just keep going in the direction that I'm going...
[20:59] <mkopack> If it's outside that range, then I need to turn either left or right until it's back within the range.
[20:59] <piless> mkopack: Maybe hexxeh means that the 0 represents the current direction
[20:59] <mkopack> Ah...
[20:59] <piless> mkopack: whereas you assume 0 is north
[20:59] <Hexxeh> yeah
[21:00] <mkopack> Yes, if you're using 0 as the current heading at all times, then you just care about offset
[21:00] <mkopack> that's diferrent
[21:00] <Hexxeh> as in 0 being straight down where the ship is headed
[21:00] <mkopack> Hmm??? (we/I) don't usually calculate it like that...
[21:00] <mkopack> And I thikn that might be where your issues are coming from
[21:01] <mkopack> If you know your actual compass heading it's a lot easier
[21:01] <mkopack> rather than trying to do it relative off your current direction
[21:01] <piless> you'd get lost
[21:02] <mkopack> That's why it's spinning in a circle
[21:02] <Hexxeh> http://pastebin.com/CXAv28rD
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[21:02] * PiBot sets mode +v Syliss
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[21:02] <mkopack> Yes, see, your waypoint_direction is being calculated in terms of world X/Y coordinates and compass heading.
[21:03] <mkopack> You're trying to say that your ship direction isn't in that same coordinate /compass framework, but in a relative to the centerline of the vehicle one..
[21:03] <mkopack> Those don't mix
[21:04] <mkopack> IF, instead, you got the actual compass heading of your vehicle, THEN you can mix them together and know the difference in compass heading and that tells you then, turn left or right
[21:04] <Hexxeh> i'd have to work out another angle to get that wouldn't i?
[21:04] <Hexxeh> angle between ship local z and the world z
[21:05] <Hexxeh> and that'd be it's compass heading
[21:05] <mkopack> (sorry, what's the z?)
[21:05] <Hexxeh> z axis
[21:05] <Hexxeh> the ship drives along it's local z axis
[21:05] <mkopack> (I don't have the problem so I don't know what exactly you're trying to do)
[21:06] <mkopack> this goes back to - you know your current location, you know the location you want to get to. finding that compass angle is trivial.
[21:06] * lars_t_h (~lars_t_h@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[21:07] <mkopack> Then you need to figure out what compass angle you're currently pointing in (the direction of your Z as you say)
[21:07] <mkopack> That I don't know how you do with what you have...
[21:07] <mkopack> Or at least what you've expressed that you have
[21:07] <Hexxeh> i guess what i'm trying to work out is the angle that the waypoint is at relative to the ships local z axis, if that z axis was zero
[21:08] <mkopack> I don't see how you can figure that out, without knowing the COMPASS heading of the Z axis
[21:08] <Hexxeh> i could figure out that by getting the angle between the world z axis and the ships local z axis
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[21:08] * PiBot sets mode +v ReggieUK
[21:08] <mkopack> Ok, so do that...
[21:09] <piless> you wouldn't need to work out the angle between the ship heading and north if you did it mko's way because the ship heading variable would already be between 0 and 359 and tell you your angle anyway
[21:09] <mkopack> that gives you the compass heading of your ship, and then from there you do the other stuff I said...
[21:09] <Hexxeh> wait
[21:09] <Hexxeh> the angle i have at the moment
[21:09] <Hexxeh> argh, i know that doing the way i'm thinking is overcomplicating it, but i can't get my head around the way you suggest
[21:09] <chronofast_> Proportional plus Integral plus Derivative Controls : http://www.peci.org/library/PECI_ControlOverview1_1002.pdf
[21:10] <mkopack> Oh god, don't confuse him with PID!
[21:10] <mkopack> *I* still don't get that myself
[21:10] <Matt> yay for pid :)
[21:10] <mkopack> Listen, draw a grid...
[21:10] <Matt> then we can play battleships?
[21:10] <mkopack> Draw axis in the middle of the grid
[21:10] <piless> time to bring out mspaint
[21:11] <Hexxeh> piless: i was literally opening paint as you said that :P
[21:11] <mkopack> consider where your ship is in the 0,0 point of the axis
[21:11] <mkopack> (at ALL times)
[21:11] <mkopack> Draw the waypoint wherever you want.
[21:11] <mkopack> Draw the compass headings??? 0 on top, 90 on right, etc.
[21:12] <chronofast_> Mostly about PID but a great resource: http://www.aiwisdom.com/ai_genreracing.html
[21:12] <mkopack> (this is going to get screwy because that's not the way the computer will calculate the headings, it'll do 0 as east, 90 as North, 180 as west, etc.)
[21:12] <mkopack> Now, you need to know 2 things:
[21:12] * xlq (~apropos@89-168-176-13.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[21:12] <mkopack> 1) what heading are YOU currently pointing at. You said you know how to get that.
[21:13] <mkopack> 2) what heading from what you are it is to get to the waypoint. ??? Draw a line to that waypoint, then plot to the X axis from there??? you just created a right triangle
[21:13] <piless> x45,y-45
[21:14] <mkopack> The angle between the X axis and the and the hypotenuse (the direct line to your waypoint from you) is the compass heading you need to get on to drive directly to the point
[21:14] <mkopack> follow?
[21:14] * xlq (~apropos@89-168-191-206.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:14] * PiBot sets mode +v xlq
[21:14] <Hexxeh> catching up now
[21:15] <mkopack> Now subtract that heading from your current heading , and that's the relative left/right degrees you need to turn to get to the waypoint
[21:15] <piless> isn't this like primary school math?
[21:15] <mkopack> If that value is <+-5 degrees, you're saying you don't want to bother turning. so don't. But if that difference is >5 degrees, make the turn as appropriate
[21:16] <mkopack> piless: yeah, but I can understand how it can be confusing, esp if you haven't done trig in a long time
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[21:18] <mkopack> Even when you have, say sensors around your ship, and know their relative angle to the ships' heading, you still convert into absolute angles because its just a LOT easier to work with
[21:19] <Hexxeh> even trying to work out the ships heading i'm getting really dodgy numbers
[21:19] <Hexxeh> only ranging from 0 to 180
[21:19] <Hexxeh> so i'm doing something very wrong
[21:19] <mkopack> yeah, something is screwy there man
[21:20] <piless> you mentioned you'd set it up for -180 to 180 earlier
[21:20] <mkopack> worst case you should get -180 to 180
[21:20] <mkopack> 0 is east, 180 is west (counterclockwise)
[21:20] <mkopack> 0 is easy -180 is west (clockwise)
[21:21] <mkopack> easy= east
[21:21] <Hexxeh> i'm getting 180 as being facing south
[21:21] <Hexxeh> and 0 as being north
[21:21] <Hexxeh> but east is 90 and west is 90
[21:21] <hotwings> hooters wings for lunch, expensed, thanks to mkopack's idea
[21:22] <mkopack> hehe
[21:22] <mkopack> Your colon better not curse me later!
[21:22] <mkopack> Hexxeh" sounds like yo have a sign mistake somewhere
[21:22] <piless> waaaaaaaaaaant http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphone-and-android?ref=recently_launched
[21:23] <Hexxeh> mkopack: acos(a.dot(b)/(a.length()*b.length()));
[21:23] <mkopack> 0 = North is good, but that's going to make some of the sin/cos type calculations screwy
[21:23] <mkopack> Because those will be different given the non-standard axis...
[21:23] * phantoxe (~destroy@a95-92-89-24.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:23] * PiBot sets mode +v phantoxe
[21:23] <Hexxeh> where a is the world z axis and b is the ships local z axis
[21:23] <Hexxeh> converting to degrees before returning, ofc
[21:23] * Syliss (~Syliss@ Quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
[21:24] <mkopack> remember that computers (and math in general) calculates where 0 is east, 90 is north, 180 is west, 270 is south
[21:24] <piless> mkopack: whhhhhhhhhhy?
[21:24] * prebz_ (~prebz@c83-248-137-51.bredband.comhem.se) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[21:24] <mkopack> so the whole sin/cos stuff and signs have to get changed around to work in a 0=north, 90=east coordinate system
[21:25] <mkopack> don't ask me, I hate it as much as you do. I struggle with this stuff every time I have to write it myself???
[21:25] <Hexxeh> mkopack: i'm right in saying i need to use the world z, right?
[21:25] <mkopack> You'd think after doing it 6 or 7 times I'd remember how
[21:25] <chronofast_> not that it matters: car.velocity.add((target.position.subtract(car.position).normalize().multiply(maxSpeed).subtract(car.velocity)).divide(car.mass))
[21:25] <mkopack> *I* feel everything should be based on the world's compass
[21:26] <Hexxeh> chronofast_: what's that?
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[21:26] * PiBot sets mode +v prebz
[21:26] <mkopack> Eh, just keep working it, you'll figure it out...
[21:26] <mkopack> I have to take care of some stuff here
[21:26] <chronofast_> a simple simple way to steer toward a waypoint
[21:26] <mkopack> It all boils down to the trig
[21:27] <Matt> which chronofast_ is mostly avoiding in his call there by dealing with velocities :)
[21:27] <chronofast_> http://rocketmandevelopment.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Seeking.png
[21:27] <Hexxeh> that will just slide the ship sideways thought, won't it?
[21:27] <piless> chronofast_: dude we're not talking about cars, it's boats!
[21:27] * LWK_mac (~LWK@pdpc/supporter/student/lwk) Quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
[21:28] <Hexxeh> piless: hover cars :P
[21:28] <chronofast_> you just point your orientation tward your velocity vector
[21:28] <Hexxeh> but i call them ships in the code
[21:28] <piless> :o
[21:28] <chronofast_> how complex does it need to be?
[21:28] <Hexxeh> as simple as possible :P
[21:29] <chronofast_> as simple as possible: http://rocketmandevelopment.com/2010/06/11/steering-behaviors-seeking/
[21:30] <Hexxeh> that doesn't seem simple :/
[21:30] <piless> 22 lines is too complicated for hexxeh
[21:30] <chronofast_> ha, it'll end up beign like 20 lines
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[21:30] * PiBot sets mode +v katnegermis
[21:30] <mkopack> Be glad you're not having to do great circle method calculations !
[21:30] <piless> chronofast_: If you could squeeze it into 2 lines that would be great, kthxbai
[21:31] <chronofast_> it could be 2, 2 long ass lines
[21:31] <mkopack> When you start dealing with route planning for Autopilot's for aircraft traveling hundreds of miles, that stuff starts factoring in??? as does lat/long skew
[21:31] <Hexxeh> it's not the amount of code, it's what it's doing i don't grasp
[21:31] <chronofast_> it's not going to get much easier than vector math, anything more and it's just harder
[21:32] <piless> Hexxeh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry
[21:32] <Hexxeh> gah
[21:33] <Hexxeh> it's my angle between vector method that's wrong
[21:33] <piless> Hexxeh: And you're being sent a developers raspberry pi?!
[21:33] <mkopack> lol
[21:33] <Hexxeh> :P
[21:33] <mkopack> be nice
[21:33] <Hexxeh> give me ebuild hacking over this any day of the week.. :D
[21:33] <chronofast_> this might be just about exactly what you are looking for: http://www.red3d.com/cwr/steer/PathFollow.html
[21:33] <mkopack> this stuff I can do??? what Hexxeh is doing with ChromeOS I can't do
[21:34] <Hexxeh> mkopack: reminds me, I got offered a pandaboard today to port it to, might take them up
[21:34] <piless> Hell no I'm not giving java permission to run
[21:34] <mkopack> Hey, THIS is real programming??? not screwing around with shell scripts and package managers and config parameters
[21:34] <Hexxeh> not gonna argue :P
[21:35] <piless> Hexxeh: OI. Do chromeos for the raspi first!!!
[21:35] <piless> Fuck the panda
[21:35] <mkopack> I've met plenty of sys admins who can do that other stuff inside out backwards forwards, but can't program their way out of a paper bag
[21:35] <Hexxeh> probably gonna do the panda over summer, raspi this week/next wek
[21:35] <Hexxeh> *week
[21:35] * NIN101 (~NIN@ Quit (Quit: NIN101)
[21:35] <Hexxeh> that is, as long as i get this assignment done first
[21:35] <Hexxeh> need to get the computer controlled cars done and i'm finished
[21:35] <mkopack> so quit BS'ing with us and go get it done! :)
[21:36] <Hexxeh> oh and add some nice particle effects
[21:36] <Hexxeh> i figured out why the ships heading was only 0 - 180 range
[21:36] <piless> particle effects?! You can't even get a basic angle right! :D
[21:36] <Hexxeh> it's working out the angle between the world z and the local z
[21:36] <Hexxeh> that's never going to be more than 180
[21:36] <piless> why was it going that?
[21:36] <piless> *doing
[21:37] <mkopack> Hexxeh: right
[21:37] <Hexxeh> piless: because this acos(a.dot(b)/(a.length()*b.length()))
[21:37] <mkopack> worst case you're heading 180degrees wrong direction
[21:37] <piless> Hexxeh: Make sure to make 0 north, because fuck standards!
[21:37] <Hexxeh> mkopack: yeah, problem is i don't know which direction :P
[21:37] <mkopack> If it's 180, it doesn't MATTER!
[21:38] <Hexxeh> since it's always positive
[21:38] <Hexxeh> oh yeah
[21:38] <Hexxeh> but if it's 90
[21:38] <mkopack> :)
[21:38] <Hexxeh> is it 90 clockwise or 90 anticlockwise
[21:38] <mkopack> If it's 90 you should know.
[21:38] <piless> 90 would be going south
[21:38] <piless> -90 would be north
[21:38] <mkopack> No, piles: at this point he has relative offset from his current direction...
[21:38] <Hexxeh> it's never negative
[21:38] * shirro (~shirro@pdpc/supporter/active/shirro) Quit (Quit: shirro)
[21:38] <mkopack> Again, this is why you need the absolutes
[21:38] <Hexxeh> exactly
[21:38] <Hexxeh> i don't know how to work that out, though
[21:39] <piless> Didn't he tell you how to though?
[21:39] <chronofast_> angle betwen vectors: http://www.euclideanspace.com/maths/algebra/vectors/angleBetween/index.htm
[21:39] <Hexxeh> chronofast_: my angle between vector code is correct
[21:39] <piless> chronofast_: Noone ever clicks on your links :P
[21:39] <Hexxeh> there's nothing wrong with acos(a.dot(b)/(a.length()*b.length())) afaik
[21:39] <Hexxeh> but it'll only ever give you a value up to 180
[21:39] <ReggieUK> hey guys, whatcha talking about? (cba to scroll up, toooooo much 90,180 stuff)
[21:40] * Nemo7 (nemo@nemo.org.org) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:40] <piless> ReggieUK: Hover cars
[21:40] <mkopack> ReggieUK: Hexxeh's assignment
[21:40] <flaushy> anyone here has a dev board already?
[21:40] <chronofast_> steering a car around waypoints
[21:40] <piless> flaushy: A guy this morning had one
[21:40] <ReggieUK> flaushy, I've got an arduino, does that count?
[21:40] <flaushy> ReggieUK: i got discoveries :P
[21:40] <ReggieUK> mkopack, what's Hexxeh's assignment?
[21:41] <flaushy> nah, on the speakup mailinglist they ask about whether it runs nicely
[21:41] <Hexxeh> write a hover car racing game
[21:41] <piless> ReggieUK: Hovercars!
[21:41] <flaushy> i wonder if someone could test that
[21:41] <mkopack> ReggieUK: something about trying to make hovercraft/cars/boats drive along a series of waypoints
[21:41] <ReggieUK> ahh, i wasn't sure if you were wumming or not piless!
[21:41] * datagutt (~datagutt@unaffiliated/datagutt) Quit (Quit: kthxbai)
[21:42] <piless> what is wumming
[21:42] <mkopack> Hexxeh: I believe the issue here is that acos is only ever going to give you a positive. It doesn't take into account the direction
[21:42] <ReggieUK> uk term I guess? a WUM is a wind up merchant, someone who kind of likes to troll but not as bad as a troll :)
[21:43] <piless> I've most definitely heard of wind up merchant
[21:43] <piless> But never wumming
[21:43] <ReggieUK> more 'banter' than 'trollage'
[21:43] <piless> It sounds like a sexual term
[21:43] <chronofast_> mkopack you are right, thats when you have to use atan2
[21:43] <mkopack> yeah. I think atan2 is going to be what you need here
[21:43] <mkopack> that will give you a + and - value
[21:44] <ReggieUK> wumming is what wums do :)
[21:44] <mkopack> and it works in 0=north 90-east coord systems IIRC
[21:44] <piless> what a vapid existance
[21:45] * Hexxeh googles atan2
[21:45] <piless> you gotta use 0=north, otherwise the nerds win.
[21:48] <Hexxeh> using atan2(a.cross(b).length(), a.dot(b))
[21:48] <Hexxeh> still only getting 0-180
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[21:49] <mkopack> And now try swapping the 2 vectors and see if you get the reverse sigh
[21:49] <piless> if the hover cars want to drive in circles let them. Let a man drive where he wants.
[21:49] <mkopack> sign
[21:49] <mkopack> try it with 90 and -90??? 180 is a BAD one to use because 180 is the SAME as -180
[21:50] <Hexxeh> nope, same :/
[21:50] <piless> okay now try deleting all your code and writing it from scratch
[21:50] <mkopack> Well, then I don't know what to tell you man
[21:50] <Hexxeh> :(
[21:50] <Hexxeh> damn
[21:50] <piless> stick the whole thing in pastebin again
[21:52] <Hexxeh> http://pastebin.com/evFMbCj9
[21:53] <piless> you don't comment your code?
[21:53] <Hexxeh> generally once i'm happy it works
[21:54] <ReggieUK> I tend to comment as i'm going along so I can see what I meant to do if it doesn't work
[21:56] <mkopack> Yeah, exactly???. BAD habit to not comment as you go??? can easily forget what you meant for a variable to mean and such
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[21:56] * PiBot sets mode +v Lerc
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[21:56] <ReggieUK> sometimes I'll even write out what I intend to do with the code before I write any
[21:57] <mkopack> Yup.. pseudocode all the way
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[21:58] <mkopack> that way you can kinda think through your logic and plan before you start writing any code and having to deal with syntax
[21:59] <ReggieUK> you get to do stuff like : I'm going to do X(cause) to make Y(effect) happen and we get there via Z(why)
[21:59] <ReggieUK> which is a real boon when you come to do a writeup for it
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[22:01] <Hexxeh> aha
[22:01] <Hexxeh> got it
[22:01] * jmontleon is now known as jmontleo
[22:01] * jmontleo is now known as jmontleon
[22:01] <Hexxeh> hideously simple
[22:01] <Hexxeh> atan(a.X()/a.Z())
[22:02] <mkopack> :)
[22:02] <mkopack> DOUBLE check that...
[22:02] <mkopack> Try it with your ship pointing in each of the 8 octants (0-45, 45-90, etc.) and the waypoint in each as well...
[22:02] <mkopack> just to be 100% sure there aren't any screwy behaviors
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[22:03] * PiBot sets mode +v jthunder
[22:04] <Hexxeh> okay maybe not :P
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[22:04] <Hexxeh> points along the Z axis, but not in the right direction
[22:04] <ReggieUK> just look out the window or use gps!
[22:05] <mkopack> :)
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[22:06] <piless> it they're hover cars they should have gps
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[22:07] <ReggieUK> Didn't someone at ibm do a bunch of routines for cartesian stuff?
[22:07] <ReggieUK> and a good writeup
[22:07] <piless> no
[22:08] <Hexxeh> google, it is failing me
[22:09] <piless> http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/mooncakehelpsout.jpg
[22:11] <ReggieUK> snotcat
[22:11] <piless> one step closer to crazy cat lady liz
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[22:39] <Hexxeh> got it
[22:39] <Hexxeh> float angle = Util::radiansToDegrees(asin(waypoint_direction.cross(ship_direction).getY()/waypoint_direction.length()/ship_direction.length()));
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[22:40] <ReggieUK> huzzah
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[22:42] <aditsu> just watched that meteor clip
[22:42] * felgru (~felgru@xdsl-78-35-220-228.netcologne.de) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[22:43] <aditsu> the main conclusion I got: it lets the users run any queries they want on the server database
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[23:08] <chronofast_> select your os: http://i.imgur.com/jy1BF.png
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[23:27] <OneFix_Work> Anyone else see the post that indicates that rPis will probably start shipping next week
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[23:27] <aditsu> OneFix_Work: no, you're the only one
[23:28] <Da|Mummy> who believes it
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[23:31] <OneFix_Work> I do, because they can't afford wrong anymore :)
[23:35] <piless> Anyone else see the post that indicated that rPis were a massive hoax and never existed
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[23:36] <Da|Mummy> forum still isnt at the point where thats every other thread started?
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[23:38] * PiBot sets mode +v Charlie_
[23:41] <OneFix_Work> piless: Well, we know that SOMETHING has been made, since we have videos of them running
[23:41] * mkopack (~mkopack@c-24-98-202-47.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[23:42] <piless> OneFix_Work: It was cgi man
[23:42] <OneFix_Work> piless: I guess you could argue that they could be faking that too, but that would take a massive amount of preparation
[23:42] <piless> I keep telling people.. Don't trust your eyes
[23:42] <piless> OneFix_Work: Why?
[23:42] <mkopack> what's up gang?
[23:44] <piless> mkopack: OneFix_Work is an idiot who believes everything he sees in a video is real
[23:46] <mkopack> lol, but it is, isn't it???? It's the internet. The internet never lies!
[23:48] <piless> mkopack: Yeah, except for videos of raspberry pies, they are lies.
[23:48] * Milos (~Milos@pdpc/supporter/student/milos) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[23:49] <mkopack> Gotta hand it to hollywood -they're making that CGI stuff look more and more real every year :)
[23:50] <piless> OneFix_Work: Told you, even mkopack agrees with me
[23:50] * dnstbr (~dnstbr@rrcs-97-77-70-128.sw.biz.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[23:55] * felgru (~felgru@xdsl-78-35-202-3.netcologne.de) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:55] * Tomtiger11 (~tomtiger1@ Quit (Changing host)
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[23:55] <piless> ukscone: Still need a desk? http://imgur.com/a/NlduV
[23:57] <Tomtiger11> End of this month = RasPi happiness!
[23:58] <piless> End of this month = free disappointment for everyone
[23:59] <mkopack> Well, I wouldn't say that we're ALL going to get them by end of the month??? I think "first ones will start being received" end of the month
[23:59] <mkopack> I doubt all the orders will get filled until Mid/Late june at the earliest

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