#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2013-08-21

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[0:05] <nmpro> ryao, curious.. whats your application? that is why is random IO performance so important for you? :-)
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[0:06] <ShadowJK> ryao; 1000 is more or less impossible
[0:06] <SpeedEvil> nmpro: filesystem's.
[0:06] <ShadowJK> ryao; you can get 150 on some cards, and they're only able to sustain it for a very short time, maybe 30 seconds at most.
[0:07] <SpeedEvil> using a SD as a normal disk - without good random Io, you're screwed
[0:08] <ShadowJK> For general use (OS root drive, /home etc), Get a latest generation Samsung Pro cards, use Samsung's f2fs filesystem.
[0:08] <nmpro> i c
[0:10] <SpeedEvil> Samsung actually made a fs'thata designed to work with their cards?
[0:10] <ShadowJK> Not it's just coincidence
[0:10] * Encrypt (~Chuck-nor@AMontsouris-553-1-118-5.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Quit: Quitte)
[0:11] <ShadowJK> There are others, but samsung is the only brand I could remember that has semiconsistent branding of a card which meets the optimal requirements for f2fs
[0:11] <johnc-> you can use the sdcard to store stuff? I just boot off it and run my app which pretty much uses http exclusively for resources heh
[0:12] <johnc-> maybe why mine hasn't become corrupted like others
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[0:13] <ryao> nmpro: OS development.
[0:13] <ryao> ShadowJK: Why is 1000 impossible?
[0:14] * Yachtsman (~Yachtsman@173-147-98-2.pools.spcsdns.net) Quit (Quit: gogo)
[0:14] <ShadowJK> We can't fit enough cpu and ram inside SD yet, without exceeding the maximum allowable power use of SD.
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[0:15] <ShadowJK> There's also not much market demand.
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[0:17] <SpeedEvil> 1000 is trivially possible - but only if you redefine the problem
[0:17] <SpeedEvil> and use an appropriate filesystem
[0:17] <ShadowJK> Sandisk also does consistent branding, except they've used the same brands for 15 years over 30 generations of cards, there's 5 different SKUs for every generation and capacity point, and different SKUs in every region on the planet. But, if you do find a card which someone has tested properly and found it performs well, if you can source the exact same SKU, it'll have the same performance.
[0:17] <SpeedEvil> ideally with knowledge of the flags
[0:18] <SpeedEvil> knowledge of the flash
[0:18] <ShadowJK> Samsung only recently entered consumer *SD market, so it's easier to remember their lineup :)
[0:18] <ShadowJK> It's not too hard to make something that performs well on almost every card
[0:19] <ShadowJK> the hard part is to make it perform well without losing 100% data integrity to unexpected reboots.
[0:19] <SpeedEvil> quite
[0:19] <SpeedEvil> and without taking too long to read journals
[0:20] <ryao> SpeedEvil: I hack on ZFS.
[0:20] <SpeedEvil> ryao: problem is that in many ways, you can't properly approach the problem without lknowledge of the flash
[0:21] <ShadowJK> ryao; basically flash is like tapedrives, with the exception that reads are almost free. Design for that :)
[0:22] <ryao> ShadowJK: I just want to have hardware that has numerically good random write performance so I spend less time waiting.
[0:22] <ShadowJK> Brush the dust off Knuth's art of programming, Who would've though the tape optimized stuff in there would become handy again eh :)
[0:22] <ryao> ShadowJK: I think that is beside the point.
[0:23] <ShadowJK> Intel 3700 SSD in a sata-usb box. :)
[0:23] <ryao> ShadowJK: Without power failure protection in the form of capacitors, you cannot expect flash to ensure data integrity during power loss.
[0:23] <ShadowJK> (that ssd has more cpu and ram than rPi, which is kinda amusing)
[0:23] <ryao> ShadowJK: You cannot really boot off that. :/
[0:24] <ShadowJK> You'd have to load kernel from sd
[0:24] <ryao> Also, the cost of that basically defeats the purpose of using the Raspberry Pi. I could get something cheaper when talking about that price range.
[0:24] * tanuva (~tanuva@gssn-4d003650.pool.mediaWays.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[0:25] <ryao> ShadowJK: I would prefer to put everything on the sd card. Is it really the case that no manufacturer has made a decent SD card for general purpose use?
[0:25] <ShadowJK> That is correct
[0:25] <ShadowJK> Heck, the card that does 150 write ops burst feels remarkably speedy
[0:26] * TronCycle (~user@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[0:26] <ShadowJK> as up until I found that card, the best I had ever seen was about 4, iirc... and most are 1 or 2 :)
[0:26] <ShadowJK> Which is fine for digital cameras and such
[0:27] <johnc-> what sort of app are we talking aboot here anyway?
[0:27] <ryao> johnc-: It isn't an app. It is OS development.
[0:29] <johnc-> cool
[0:29] <ShadowJK> SSDs were also basically dog slow for random writes until Intel with its technology lead managed to fit enough cpu and ram into one of their SSDs. For years and years before that, OS developers were refusing or being "meh" about optimizing for flash, and I see that trend continues :)
[0:29] * MichaelC|Away is now known as MichaelC
[0:30] <ryao> ShadowJK: They were not that slow. It was jmicron that made them absurdly slow.
[0:30] <ryao> I have a pre-JMicron SSD. It had fairly good performance.
[0:30] <ryao> Intel is the first one that made a MLC flash controller that was not awful.
[0:30] <ShadowJK> jmicron was more or less 50 kingston cards in raid0, the others were slightly better than that
[0:31] <ryao> Jmicron got dial-up transfer speeds...
[0:31] <ShadowJK> Yes, like I said, 50 kingston sd cards striped ;)
[0:32] <ShadowJK> The SLC vs MLC thing isn't that big of a thing, it just changes the raw numbers by a magnitude or two, it doesn't change performance scalabilty at all
[0:33] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[0:33] <ryao> SLC cells are faster than MLC cells for both reads and writes. Latencies are lower.
[0:34] <ShadowJK> Sure
[0:35] <ryao> Anyway, I am one of the people who paid $999 for a 64GB SLC SSD before TRIM was invented and before MLC was on the market.
[0:35] <ryao> It was noticeably faster than a hard disk. It still is.
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[0:37] <ShadowJK> But if you have 16 megabyte SLC cells, and 16 megabyte MLC cells, and you want to fire off 4k random writes, after the read-modify-write of 16M, it doesn't matter much whether you have SLC, MLC or TLC, it's going to be absurdly poor performance on all 3. :)
[0:37] * g_r_eek (~g_r_eek@78-23-63.adsl.cyta.gr) has left #raspberrypi
[0:37] <ryao> ShadowJK: It isn't a read-modify-write of 16M. You just write to a clean page.
[0:38] <ryao> ShadowJK: The SSD has to do garbage collection to free erase blocks every now and then, but none of those are 16MB. :/
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[0:39] <ShadowJK> They were 12M a year ago on TLC
[0:39] <ShadowJK> and it tends to double every 18 months or so?
[0:39] <funkster> keep getting journal io errors on RPi, take SD card out and put it in another RPi. i get no errors... HHHMMMMMMMM
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[0:40] <ShadowJK> Anyway, SD doesn't have enough ram to maintain a mapping table so it could always write into a clean page
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[0:42] <ShadowJK> The best SDs can keep track of 8 or so erase blocks at a time, and on the best of the best you can write into that page in random order (but not if you overwrite something you wrote after the card began using that clean page)
[0:43] * javiolo (~javier@unaffiliated/javiolo) Quit (Quit: javiolo)
[0:43] <ryao> ShadowJK: I think you are confusing erase blocks with allocation groups
[0:43] <ryao> https://wiki.linaro.org/WorkingGroups/KernelArchived/Projects/FlashCardSurvey
[0:44] <ShadowJK> From a host software point of view they behave kinda same..
[0:45] * g_r_eek (~g_r_eek@78-23-63.adsl.cyta.gr) Quit (Quit: g_r_eek)
[0:45] <ShadowJK> "Writing to random addresses on the medium will result in read-modify-write operation being performed on a whole allocation group"
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[0:49] * XeCrypt is now known as Tuxuser
[0:53] <ryao> ShadowJK: I guess this explains it: https://lwn.net/Articles/428793/
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[0:54] <ryao> ShadowJK: It does not explain how pages fall into that though.
[0:55] <ShadowJK> From a fs point of view, there's 2 (or 3) major aspects you want to know
[0:56] * Tuxuser is now known as XeCrypt
[0:56] <ShadowJK> First, the smallest chunk of data that can be written to an erased AU. Seems to be 16k, 24k or 32k these days.
[0:57] <ShadowJK> Second, the size of the AU. 8, 12 and larger seem common
[0:57] <ryao> ShadowJK: The 16KB pages are supposed to be only on the 20nm Intel flash...
[0:57] <ryao> Anyway, this is all very interesting.
[0:58] <ShadowJK> And third, how many AUs can you "touch" with writes before the AU is "closed" and the next write to it would cause full read-modify-write
[0:59] <ryao> If you were to write in units of AUs, then you could probably avoid the read-modify-write altogether.
[0:59] <ShadowJK> SD/USB is all about cheap, so we get the 24 and 48k stuff early..
[0:59] <ShadowJK> ryan: yep!
[0:59] <ryao> I hope that the RRAM storage comes out to replace flash soon...
[1:01] <mpmc> Wow, This Pi aint fitting in this case! I can get one side in but not the other and I really don't want to force it.
[1:01] <ShadowJK> ryan: Also, if you had a card capable of, say 2 simultaneously open AUs, you could wite sequentially in chunks of 16,24,32,48k without taking a penalty
[1:01] <ryao> ShadowJK: You are highlighting the wrong uy.
[1:01] <ryao> s/uy/guy/
[1:01] * nmpro (~mike@50-77-43-125-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[1:02] <ShadowJK> say If you had one area for log-structured fs metadata, one area for logstructured file data.. oh and I gues you need a third and fourth to keep an index to all this..
[1:02] <ShadowJK> And then I forget why samsung's f2fs really wanted 8 (or was it 6?)
[1:03] <ryao> ShadowJK: How do Intel's SSDs manage to sustain high random IO?
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[1:05] <ryao> Also, why would people design such a horrible storage medium this way?
[1:05] <ShadowJK> ryao; they have a table, in ram, mapping every host logical 4k sector into the 8k sectors on flash. Every write from the host is written to a new sector on flash, table in ram updated.
[1:05] <ShadowJK> Well, every second 4k write causes actual write
[1:06] <ryao> ShadowJK: Interesting... I always thought that they did 8KB to 8KB with the 8KB pages.
[1:07] <ShadowJK> Stuff gets a bit fragmented over time, so they might actually pair every incoming write with repositioning data from an AU that is almost "empty"
[1:07] <ryao> ShadowJK: How do you know so much on this?
[1:07] <plugwash> SD cards are designed to be cheap and adequate for the write patterns found in cameras etc
[1:07] <ryao> plugwash: I mean NAND.
[1:08] <plugwash> I presume they make the erase blocks big because that improves the ratio of die area used for actual storage to total die area
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[1:08] <ryao> If the way NAND is done is so bad, why not just redesign it to be something sane?
[1:09] <ShadowJK> ryao; intel's solution in D3700 is basically the bruteforce solution which you can do with enough ram and onboard battery backup. The basic algo is simple and easy. The "magic" bit that requires effort is the interleaving of garbage collection with normal writes so that performance is maintained and is consistent, and that stuff doesn't go missing after powerloss..
[1:09] * felipealmeida (~user@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[1:09] <ryao> I could see a market for flash where the eraseblock and page are both 4KB...
[1:09] <ShadowJK> ryao; it's cheap! that's the main thing
[1:10] <ShadowJK> And facebook is calling on manufacturers to make it cheaper!
[1:10] <ShadowJK> "we only need to be able to write to it once, and it doesn't have to be so fast if we can get lots of it"
[1:10] <ryao> Now I have a reason to root for RRAM.
[1:11] <ryao> RRAM has better density and it does not suffer from random IO issues.
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[1:12] <ShadowJK> Supposedly the engineer's conservative estimate for how long data will stay intact on a unused modern nand is signifivantly less than a year, after which data has faded away
[1:12] <ryao> ShadowJK: I thought it was 10 years...
[1:12] <ryao> ShadowJK: How do you know all of this?
[1:13] <ShadowJK> and it gets worse (as does write endurance) with every process shrink, and every extra bit they cram in per cell
[1:13] <ShadowJK> I've hoovered up almost every article online on the topic since 2008 or so :)
[1:14] <ShadowJK> "every" might be inaccurate
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[1:15] <ShadowJK> Bergman who you linked twice to earlier also periodically posts to linux mailing lists when he gets fed up with people thinking flash is magic go-fast pixie dust
[1:15] <ShadowJK> his stuff is very educational
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[1:15] <ShadowJK> Anandtech has great stuff on SSDs, and explained much about the operational principles of intel's D3700
[1:16] <DrDamnit> Got my first pi. Setup, working great. Only thing is the video quality isn't great. Any suggestions to tweak this to look better?
[1:16] <ryao> ShadowJK: I like their articles.
[1:16] <ryao> ShadowJK: They never talked about allocation groups though.
[1:16] <ShadowJK> The basic algorithm looks alot like what I dreamt up on paper for an "optimal" strategy for swap on flash :)
[1:17] <ShadowJK> Everyone seems to use slightly different terminology
[1:18] <ShadowJK> Like, I can never remember the exact definition of block page group sector erase unit allocation unit etc..
[1:19] <ShadowJK> For read performance I think there's yet another grouping that I forget..
[1:20] <ShadowJK> ryao; oh one thing I realized the other day... capacities go up, but the number of erase blocks stays approximately constant
[1:20] * Midnigh2ker (~Toker@unaffiliated/midnightoker) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[1:21] <ShadowJK> (Note: I didn't actually factcheck that)
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[1:24] <ShadowJK> The 10 years data retention figure might well be true for a SSD that has been powered on, I wouldn't doubt that. As for a 2013 era usb3 flash drive written once, tossed in a drawer and taken out in 2023.. I wouldn't count on it being readable...
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[1:29] <ShadowJK> It'd be cool to have some raw nand of like 10nm scale, record audio in pcm written as analog samples, one sample per cell..
[1:30] * ruif13 (~ruif13@a89-153-58-111.cpe.netcabo.pt) Quit (Quit: ruifigueiredo.me)
[1:30] <ShadowJK> And listen to the recording fade over time :D
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[2:07] <ryao> ShadowJK: I was under the impression that self discharge killed data at the 10 year mark, although that number might be for larger process flash.
[2:07] <ryao> I have some SSDs that have not been powered on in years. I will see if they still have data.
[2:07] <ddxfish> optical is how i back up my long term storage... not ideal i know
[2:08] <ryao> ShadowJK: By the way, if the data is destroyed, wouldn't the firmware also be destroyed?
[2:08] * ValDuare (~ValDuare@99-72-244-228.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: Going To Sleep)
[2:08] <ryao> ddxfish: I use ZFS on magnetic disks.
[2:08] <PhotoJim> ddxfish: good qualty optical media is pretty reasonable. crap optical media is another story :)
[2:08] * redrocket (~redrocket@unaffiliated/redrocket) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[2:08] <ryao> ddxfish: raidz2 :)
[2:08] <ddxfish> hmmm yeah i use verbatim always
[2:08] <ShadowJK> SSDs will have longer ECC to fix up the uncertain bits appearing :)
[2:08] <ddxfish> yeah mirrored raid would be nice to store stuff on if u had lots of money
[2:08] <ryao> I wish they would let the OS worry about ECC...
[2:09] <ryao> ddxfish: I use raidz2. It is like RAID 6.
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[2:09] <ddxfish> hmmm i have to look that up i never heard it
[2:09] <ryao> ddxfish: /j #zfs or /j #zfsonlinux
[2:09] <ddxfish> linux all the way XD
[2:10] <ddxfish> ohhh double parity? i didnt even know they had that
[2:10] <ShadowJK> heh
[2:11] <ShadowJK> my laptop has 2 SSDs in raid-0
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[2:11] <ddxfish> god that would be so nice, what model ssd?
[2:11] <ShadowJK> uh, sandisk X100 if that's a thing
[2:11] <ShadowJK> msata
[2:11] <ShadowJK> It has room for 3 msata drives
[2:12] <ShadowJK> and one fullsize drive
[2:12] <ddxfish> wow lol i never even seen this, i was looking at samsung 840 pro
[2:12] <ShadowJK> fullsize being 2.5" normal laptop drive
[2:12] <ryao> ddxfish: They have triple parity too.
[2:12] <ddxfish> yeah and msata is 1.8
[2:12] <ShadowJK> I think basically only corsair (or crucial?), sandisk, and intel make msata drives
[2:13] <ddxfish> i want a netbook with 2 of those in a raid 0
[2:13] <ddxfish> idc about speed of cpu i want fast write time
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[2:14] <ShadowJK> it's on the whole quite silly
[2:14] <ShadowJK> It makes benchmarks look good when sequential speeds are ludicrous times 3
[2:14] <ddxfish> random write i avg into the decision
[2:14] <ddxfish> random write 4k
[2:15] <ShadowJK> But yeah anyway, i can't tell the difference between resume from sleep and full boot
[2:15] <ShadowJK> except full boot takes maybe a second longer to display the manufacturer logo?
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[2:16] <ddxfish> i should drink a beer before i decide to drop 400 on 2 msata's
[2:18] <ShadowJK> I think it's special interface
[2:18] * ShadowJK shrugs
[2:18] <ddxfish> its a direct adapter tho i think
[2:18] <ShadowJK> but samsung 840 is superior if you've only got a normal sata bay to fill
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[2:19] <frankdrey> is there anyone here with a set up Pi willing to try and compile something for me?
[2:20] <frankdrey> My SD card is being used in something else, so i can't :/
[2:20] <frankdrey> I just want to see if it compiles without error
[2:20] <frankdrey> (I've been trying to cross-compile from a PC)
[2:20] <ddxfish> use a second sd card :)
[2:20] <Qjimbo> why don't you grab the Raspberry Pi emulator pack with QEMU?
[2:21] <ddxfish> oh yeah good idea too
[2:21] <frankdrey> ddxfish, don't have one :/
[2:21] <frankdrey> Qjimbo, hmm..
[2:21] <frankdrey> good point :P
[2:21] * Out`Of`Control (~Viper@unaffiliated/outofcontrol/x-1373891) Quit (Quit: Free Software, Free Hardware, Free Culture, Free Spectrum)
[2:21] <ddxfish> :( yeah i hear the emulator works well for stuff like that
[2:21] <Qjimbo> Yeah, I'm actually using it myself right now to work on stuff
[2:21] <frankdrey> apparently it won't run arch right away though?
[2:22] <Qjimbo> yeah it comes with raspbian
[2:22] <Qjimbo> but I don't think it's hard to change, it reads the installation .img files
[2:23] <frankdrey> i'm looking at:
[2:23] <frankdrey> http://xecdesign.com/qemu-emulating-raspberry-pi-the-easy-way/
[2:23] <Qjimbo> yep should do the trick
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[2:28] * Kane (~Kane@ADijon-257-1-115-41.w90-48.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Quit: Night all o/)
[2:29] <frankdrey> alright thanks
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[2:40] * XeCrypt is now known as Tuxuser
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[3:01] <TLoFP1> hi guys
[3:01] <TLoFP1> I am playing around with the raspberry pi camera, very sweet gadget
[3:01] <TLoFP1> when I record full HD video my CPU is idel (AWESOME Hardware encoding)
[3:02] <TLoFP1> however, I can not play back the videos I record, it appears the PI attempts to decode in software
[3:02] <sney> omxplayer
[3:02] <TLoFP1> my question is as follows: is encoding and decoding so fundamentally different that the PI has the hardware to encode but not to decode? or am I doing something wrong?
[3:02] <TLoFP1> oh
[3:02] <TLoFP1> not mplayer?
[3:03] <sney> mplayer doesn't know how to talk to the pi gpu
[3:03] <TLoFP1> i see
[3:03] <ddxfish> omx uses hardware accel
[3:03] <sney> it's not X dri
[3:03] <ddxfish> but requires hardware accell file input
[3:03] <TLoFP1> interesting, what is this hardware accell file?
[3:03] * TLoFP1 goes to google
[3:04] <sney> there are a couple codecs you can buy the license for, but for videos you made yourself you shouldn't need them
[3:04] <sney> it's just for the codecs used by iirc DVD and Blu-Ray
[3:05] <ddxfish> MKV
[3:05] <ddxfish> its a file format as a container but most MKV do play on omx
[3:05] <TLoFP1> yes that sounds right
[3:05] <TLoFP1> I had speculated earlier that playback needed a codec license, good to hear im in the clear
[3:06] <ddxfish> i have mplayer ALMOST playing any movie type if ur interested
[3:06] <ddxfish> its slow tho, runs in a small window from CLI/terminal and has some problems, but it works
[3:07] <TLoFP1> ddxfish thanks, but ill give omxplayer a shot
[3:07] <TLoFP1> I have no particular affinity to mplayer
[3:08] <ddxfish> if u want to watch any codec on omxplayer there is a way
[3:08] <TLoFP1> what I would like to know though is if anybody has tried to measure throughput of a network partion mounted on an external harddrive on the raspberry pi
[3:08] <ddxfish> setup a VLC client on your main computer, stream it over RTSP, use omxplayer rtsp://
[3:08] <ddxfish> throughput using samba is high, almost 100mbs
[3:08] <TLoFP1> ddxfish: I am only concerned about playback of the files I recorded
[3:08] <TLoFP1> ddxfish: really
[3:09] <TLoFP1> im supprised the the USB keeps up
[3:09] * harish (~harish@ Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[3:09] <TLoFP1> isn't ethernet and USB on the same bus?
[3:09] <ddxfish> yes, and the files you recorded can be played, trasncoded, streamed to your Pi from another computer
[3:09] <ddxfish> yes but if ur not using USB wifi and stuff itll get full speed
[3:09] * hyperair (hyperair@ubuntu/member/hyperair) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:09] <ddxfish> i mean its more like 10MB/s so 80mbs
[3:10] <TLoFP1> ddxfish: so is that read/write from SD card?
[3:10] <TLoFP1> or to USB hdd?
[3:10] <TLoFP1> ddxfish: I did get the streaming to work
[3:10] <ddxfish> read from sd i should say, i use a class 10 UHS for writing at about 5-6MB/s
[3:10] <TLoFP1> yea, I figured that much
[3:10] <ddxfish> stream and transcode to mkv in real time using vlc and you can watch anything
[3:10] <TLoFP1> ill run some comparisons of the BBB vs. the PI for a dedicated NAS
[3:11] * peterrus (~peterrus@5469EEFF.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[3:11] <ddxfish> its how i run my star trek playlist :)
[3:11] <TLoFP1> cool
[3:11] <TLoFP1> yoru way ahead of me
[3:11] <TLoFP1> although I do have a PI set up as XMBC to watch hulu
[3:11] <TLoFP1> works almost flawlessly
[3:11] <ddxfish> i was where you are yesterday, no idea what VLC could do
[3:11] <ddxfish> wow did u change ur memory split?
[3:11] <TLoFP1> right now I am trying to install a security system using PI's
[3:12] <ddxfish> raspbmc was too slow for me for some reason
[3:12] <TLoFP1> you have to be patient
[3:12] <ddxfish> hahah
[3:12] <TLoFP1> it takes maybe 1 minute to load the video
[3:12] <TLoFP1> (i have not overclocked yet)
[3:12] <TLoFP1> BUT, comercials are "broken" so you have to "disable" them
[3:12] <ddxfish> i been playing every movie i have from command line only, on default raspbian
[3:12] <TLoFP1> you get your time back 10 fold :P
[3:12] <ddxfish> ;)
[3:12] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:12] <ddxfish> i use a host blocking file to block ads all together
[3:13] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
[3:13] <TLoFP1> hulu ads are different because they are part of the stream
[3:13] * jlf (~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[3:13] <ddxfish> exactly, and when one comes up, its just blank black space for me
[3:13] <TLoFP1> the bluecop plugin is amazing though
[3:13] <TLoFP1> oh I see
[3:13] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:13] <TLoFP1> with the bluecop plugin you can disable "network prerolls"
[3:13] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
[3:13] <ddxfish> well, this was 6 months ago, so someday they will fix that
[3:14] <TLoFP1> more specifically you can select the number of adds to run in the video, before and after
[3:14] <TLoFP1> step 1: set all to zero, step 2: ..., Step 3: Profit! :P
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[3:14] <ddxfish> haha ill have to try that
[3:14] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
[3:14] <TLoFP1> its nice
[3:14] * fr0g911 (fr0g911@c-98-194-164-201.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[3:14] <TLoFP1> I like it because I don't need to have a keyboard or mouse attached
[3:15] <TLoFP1> XMBC comes with a very nice android remote
[3:15] <ddxfish> my god man, android stole my life b4 the pi
[3:15] <TLoFP1> :)
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[3:16] * pwh (~pwh@ Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
[3:16] <TLoFP1> anyhow, ill report back here when I have concrete numbers of what is faster: BBB nas or PI nas (I am betting on BBB)
[3:17] * peterrus (~peterrus@5469EEFF.cm-12-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:17] <ddxfish> yeah same actaully
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[3:19] <plugwash> the BBB has a faster processor and doesn't have the network stuck behind USB
[3:19] <plugwash> So i'd expect it to be faster
[3:19] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:20] <plugwash> though depending on what exactly it's doing the 100 megabit ethernet interfaces may be the limit in bothc ases
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[4:57] * Chiftin (~liveuser@host-78-78-12-79.mobileonline.telia.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:57] * cads (~m@adsl-208-61-1-166.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:57] <cads> hey guys
[4:57] * slug (~Nuno@209-6-193-216.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:58] <cads> I'm doing the electronics design and support on a small raspberry pi project, and I'd like to make some diagrams to support the team members that will be building things
[4:58] <cads> I'd like to give them some clear diagrams and instructions, so I'm wondering about the community recommended schematic design software in linux
[4:59] * fr0g911 (fr0g911@c-98-194-164-201.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:59] <ShiftPlusOne> there's kicad and geda
[4:59] <fr0g911> and fr0g911
[5:00] <cads> cool, kicad is my top choice, geda is new to me
[5:00] <ShiftPlusOne> for electronics schematics
[5:00] <ShiftPlusOne> but no, no fr0g911
[5:00] * nitdega_ is now known as nitdega
[5:00] * enen92 (~miguel@bl14-95-153.dsl.telepac.pt) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[5:00] <fr0g911> lol heya Shift
[5:00] <ShiftPlusOne> ey
[5:01] <cads> really all I'll need is a limited block diagramming f the GPIO heade, and maybe a high level block diagram of the system so I can diagram how power, USB and GPIO components will connectr
[5:01] <fr0g911> well off todo inventory at work see yall later
[5:01] <cads> which I can do myself, without much trouble
[5:01] <cads> thanks for the suggestion ShiftPlusOne
[5:01] <ShiftPlusOne> If you need block diagrams, then there's Dia, but I hate it... terrible software
[5:01] <cads> *shudders at the mention of dia
[5:02] <ShiftPlusOne> I'd just load up windows and use visio, tbh
[5:02] <pksato> to make schematics or flow chaer diagrams?
[5:03] <pksato> chart
[5:03] <ShiftPlusOne> It seems like he wants to do schematics, but also block diagrams and such
[5:04] <pksato> Calligra Flow (aka, kivio)
[5:04] * slug (~Nuno@209-6-193-216.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[5:04] * Psil0Cybin (~Psil0cybi@CPE002e69b8dcff-CM0012253ec320.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:04] <pksato> for schematics, I use eangle cad (close software).
[5:05] <pksato> eagle
[5:05] <ShiftPlusOne> Ah, calligra flow is worth giving a go, but it felt very incomplete.
[5:05] <pksato> like most FOSS :)
[5:05] <ShiftPlusOne> Fritzing and circuitlab may also be worth looking into. Anyway, I am off.
[5:05] <Psil0Cybin> Hey guys i want to find a network bandwidth graph like indicator-multiload in Ubuntu that can show me just like the CPU Graph the Graph of the bandwidth, do you guys think i can download a debian package of indicator-multiload and install it on Raspbian
[5:05] <Psil0Cybin> ?
[5:06] <Psil0Cybin> sorry i want a graph that will show me my bandwidth usage, just like the cpu graph at the bottom right of the default LXDE setup on Raspbian
[5:06] <Psil0Cybin> the first question was confusing
[5:06] <Psil0Cybin> or does Raspbian have indicator-multiload in the repo?
[5:07] <Psil0Cybin> indicator-multiload is used to show a CPU Graph, Bandwidth graph, RAM graph and more
[5:07] <Psil0Cybin> on the top panel like an applet.
[5:07] <hyperair> probably not
[5:07] <hyperair> i don't thikn it even exists in debian
[5:07] <Psil0Cybin> what can i do in order to get a network graph beside the cpu graph
[5:08] <hyperair> does lxde even support indicators?
[5:08] <Psil0Cybin> is there anything i can do to get a bandwidth graph
[5:08] <Psil0Cybin> yea
[5:08] <Psil0Cybin> http://www.britishideas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/rpi-pronterface.jpg
[5:08] <Psil0Cybin> look at the bottom right
[5:08] <Psil0Cybin> it has a CPU Graph on the taskbar.
[5:09] <hyperair> i see
[5:09] <hyperair> what does the CPU graph come from?
[5:10] <Psil0Cybin> im thinking of getting Xfce instead of LXDE on Raspbian but even so, i am wondering if i can build the indicator from source?
[5:10] <hyperair> you probably can
[5:10] <Psil0Cybin> i dont have the pi booted up right now, but it came from an applet called CPU Usage Monitor or something
[5:10] * j0hnlam (~j0hnlam@69-196-143-200.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:11] * chz|bacon (~chz@unaffiliated/chzbacon/x-4157104) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[5:11] <hyperair> let's see..
[5:11] <hyperair> Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 8), libgtk-3-dev, libcairo2-dev, libgtop2-dev, libappindicator3-dev, valac, gnome-common, autopoint, dh-autoreconf
[5:11] <hyperair> i think everything's in debian already. should be buildable.
[5:12] <pksato> Psil0Cybin: like it https://bitbucket.org/mozbugbox/byteonpanel/wiki/Home
[5:12] <Psil0Cybin> well i tried to build it without an internet connection and it said i missed stuff
[5:12] <Psil0Cybin> yea i wasnt able to build byteonpanel
[5:12] <Psil0Cybin> i tried it
[5:12] <Psil0Cybin> i ran the sh ./configure command
[5:12] <Psil0Cybin> because ./configure didnt work
[5:12] <Psil0Cybin> and it said i was missing packages, but because i have no internet connection atm
[5:12] <Psil0Cybin> i was unable to build it.
[5:13] <Psil0Cybin> you think byteonpanel is my only option
[5:13] <Psil0Cybin> unless i get Xfce
[5:13] <hyperair> no
[5:13] * ddxfish (~ddxfish@c-68-63-225-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[5:13] <hyperair> dget https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/primary/+files/indicator-multiload_0.3-0ubuntu1.dsc
[5:13] <hyperair> then cd into the directory and run dpkg-buildpackage -b
[5:13] <hyperair> or debuild -b
[5:14] <hyperair> it should get you a deb
[5:14] <hyperair> then you can install it
[5:14] <Psil0Cybin> oh man hyperair your the best! im going to try it tonight! when the gf goes to sleep so i can use the TV
[5:14] <Psil0Cybin> and ill let you know how it went
[5:14] <hyperair> :) good luck
[5:15] <Psil0Cybin> okay another question :P i just got the Pi two days ago and iv been so excited since, when i bought it i bought a network card as well (small usb) it came with a CD in the package
[5:15] <Psil0Cybin> do you think the Raspbian pi would recognize the network card or do i need to use the SD
[5:15] <Psil0Cybin> to get drivers on?
[5:16] <pksato> to a second interface?
[5:16] <Psil0Cybin> sorry what pksato ?
[5:17] <pksato> plug and see if new interface appears on ifconfig -a command.
[5:17] <Psil0Cybin> okay
[5:17] <Psil0Cybin> so im going to do that in a bit :)
[5:17] <Psil0Cybin> i hope it works
[5:17] <Psil0Cybin> i was just wondering why it came with a SD
[5:17] <Psil0Cybin> unless it had drivers on it
[5:17] <Psil0Cybin> it was a very small disk
[5:17] <hyperair> Psil0Cybin: you mean a usb-ethernet dongle?
[5:17] <pksato> rpi have a one ethernet card. Or you buy a 'rare' model A?
[5:17] <Psil0Cybin> its for Wifi
[5:18] <Psil0Cybin> but its little usb thing
[5:18] <hyperair> so it's a wifi dongle?
[5:18] <hyperair> those things should have drivers inside the kernel by default
[5:18] <Psil0Cybin> ya ya
[5:18] <Psil0Cybin> Amaaaazing
[5:18] <Psil0Cybin> :D
[5:18] <Psil0Cybin> jesus i love these guys
[5:18] <Psil0Cybin> and you guys :)
[5:18] <hyperair> :)
[5:18] <pksato> most common wifi drongle are supported out of box.
[5:18] * TheSeven (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[5:19] <Psil0Cybin> hyperair: i copied what you wrote into a TXT File so im going to try it later tonight and let you know how it went, if it works ill shower you with presents.
[5:19] * [7] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:19] <hyperair> heh
[5:19] <pksato> some need to install binary only firmware.
[5:19] <Psil0Cybin> hyperair: think it will work on LXDE and Xfce if i decide to go down that route
[5:19] <Psil0Cybin> gui wise
[5:20] <Psil0Cybin> the indicator plugin
[5:24] <hyperair> yeah probably
[5:24] * kwrazi (~kwrazi@220-245-146-175.static.tpgi.com.au) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[5:25] * minidino (~rawr@ Quit (Quit: *poof*)
[5:26] <Psil0Cybin> sexynes
[5:26] <Psil0Cybin> hyperair: ur the man :)
[5:29] * matt_m (~matt_m@c-76-19-112-181.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:30] * \\Mr_C\\ (mrc@66-168-168-33.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[5:30] * dj_pi (~dj@c-107-5-25-243.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:30] * BlueDreams (~matt@24-205-95-34.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com) Quit (Quit: BlueDreams)
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[5:38] * ExeciN (nicexe@gateway/shell/trekweb.org/x-oogduerscgvbnivs) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:39] * \\Mr_C\\ (mrc@66-168-168-33.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:41] <hyperair> :)
[5:42] * \\Mr_C\\ (mrc@66-168-168-33.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com) Quit (Client Quit)
[5:53] * dj_pi (~dj@c-107-5-25-243.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[5:55] * pksato (~PEBKAC@unaffiliated/pksato) Quit (Quit: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair)
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[6:09] * DaQatz (~DB@pool-71-161-204-177.burl.east.myfairpoint.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:13] * thesheff17 (~thesheff1@216-80-21-199.c3-0.lem-ubr1.chi-lem.il.cable.rcn.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[6:15] * jhn (~jhn@cpe-66-65-169-99.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[6:32] * setkeh (~aldcznc@unaffiliated/setkeh) Quit (Quit: Play Nice i Can Still see you)
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[6:36] * jhn (~jhn@cpe-66-65-169-99.nyc.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[6:39] * \\Mr_C\\ (mrc@66-168-168-33.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:41] * BlueDreams (~matt@24-205-95-34.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com) has joined #raspberrypi
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[6:43] * Turingi (~devon@unaffiliated/devon-hillard/x-7250961) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:45] * djapo (~archie@108-245-234-171.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[6:47] * Lupinedk is now known as lupinedk
[6:49] * GriffenJBS (6c84ed97@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[6:50] * likes (~likes@tmo-106-5.customers.d1-online.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:52] * jlf (~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:52] * j4jackj (jack@j4jackj-1-pt.tunnel.tserv21.tor1.ipv6.he.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[6:53] <j4jackj> Is there a -offtopic?
[6:53] <j4jackj> jlf: are you that guy from #emacs?
[6:57] <j4jackj> BTW hello all
[6:58] <GTRsdk> what would you need an -offtopic for that other channels don't fulfill the purpose of?
[6:58] * goganchic (~goganchic@ Quit ()
[6:59] <j4jackj> I really don't know
[6:59] <GTRsdk> if you're up for being in a large 'offtopic' type of channel, there's #defocus
[7:00] <j4jackj> No good, I'm banned there.
[7:00] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:01] <j4jackj> And at that, are offtopic discussions allowable here?
[7:01] <GTRsdk> by offtopic, not on the topic of rpi, or not on the topic of the network?
[7:02] <j4jackj> not on the topic of R-Pi
[7:02] <j4jackj> Although I do own a Raspberry Pi at that...
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[7:44] * BlueDreams (~matt@24-205-95-34.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com) Quit (Quit: BlueDreams)
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[7:49] * Qjimbo (~Qjimbo__@S01060014bf4b36c1.vs.shawcable.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:50] <Qjimbo> Hey all - I'm having some trouble compiling gambatte - I was wondering if anyone could look at the errors and point me in the right direction: http://pastebin.com/PS4wyVvc
[7:53] * herdingcat (huli@nat/redhat/x-vyeonmljkxkiesud) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:53] * tfittsy (~tfittsy@65-130-226-172.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:55] <tfittsy> I need to write a simple program for a raspberry pi that has a gui and can send and receive http data and interface with a serial port. I mostly do web development but I think the serial port requirement is going to rule out doing this in the browser. Can someone point me in a direction for where to start?
[7:55] * pkrnj (~pkrnj@bas2-montreal47-1279441932.dsl.bell.ca) Quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
[7:57] * Coffe (~mrGreen@nat.basefarm.se) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:58] <Qjimbo> tfittsy: If you're used to PHP you can access the serial port from the PHP commandline
[7:59] <Qjimbo> Not too familiar on it but there's some discussion here - http://php.net/manual/en/function.dio-tcsetattr.php
[8:01] * dan2k3k4 (~dan2k3k4@unaffiliated/dan2k3k4) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:01] * davor (~davor@unaffiliated/davor) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[8:02] <Qjimbo> Alternatively, you could look at learning python to make a Gui app quickly: http://davidbriddock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/learn-python-basic-gui-app.html
[8:04] * gugahoi_away is now known as gugahoi
[8:06] * davor (~davor@unaffiliated/davor) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:08] <tfittsy> ok, I think I'll probably throw it together in python. I've seen Tkinter mentioned before along with qt and 1 or 2 others but that should hopefully suffice.
[8:09] <Qjimbo> I tried learning python myself a while ago but it never "clicked", always got on better with Delphi and C#... neither of which has a friendly environment on the pi annoyingly
[8:10] * pecorade (~pecorade@host161-18-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:14] <tfittsy> well the app is going to be a super simple 'atm' with all of the logic on the server side.
[8:14] * gvo (~chatzilla@c-71-199-146-240.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[8:14] <tfittsy> just sending a pin # and a withdrawal amount and the server validating it and then sending data to the serial port.
[8:15] <Qjimbo> cool
[8:15] * Chiftin (~liveuser@host-78-78-12-79.mobileonline.telia.com) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[8:15] <tfittsy> well, sending back the serial command or an ok message and the program sending the serial command or generating it. lots of ways it could go.
[8:15] * imRance is now known as Guest43993
[8:15] * Guest43993 (~Rance@ Quit (Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
[8:16] <tfittsy> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telequip-Transact-2-Coin-Dispenser-w-magazine-/121016072773?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2d1eba45
[8:16] <tfittsy> ordered one of those
[8:16] <tfittsy> probably going to get one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diy-Monitor-for-Raspberry-Pi-HDMI-VGA-2AV-Lcd-Driver-7-AT070TN92-Touch-Screen-/121119934991?pt=US_Server_Boards&hash=item1c334f8a0f
[8:17] <tfittsy> should be a fun project
[8:17] * cccy_RegeaneWolf (~cccyRegea@ Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[8:17] * kamdard (~kamdard@pool-173-71-57-182.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[8:17] <Qjimbo> sounds like it the pi is perfect for stuff like that
[8:18] <tfittsy> yeah, it should be cool. the alternative was buying an 8-10k vending machine that supported credit cards... or doing nothing I guess.
[8:19] * aykut (~aykut@unaffiliated/aykut) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:21] * shurizzle (~shura@unaffiliated/shurizzle) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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[8:27] * pwh (~pwh@99-9-208-120.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: pwh)
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[9:28] <pagios> hi
[9:28] <pagios> what is the default user/pass for rpi
[9:32] * Qjimbo (~Qjimbo__@S01060014bf4b36c1.vs.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[9:32] <mike_t> user: pi pass: raspberry
[9:32] <pagios> not working
[9:32] <mike_t> what OS?
[9:32] <pagios> raspbian
[9:33] <ShiftPlusOne> yes, that's the right default user/pass for the foundation's official raspbian image
[9:33] <mike_t> it's default for raspbian
[9:35] <Benguin> raspberry is a bit of a long default password. I prefer something short so I can type it even if my keyboard layout hasn't been set yet \o/
[9:35] * voxadam (voxadam@unaffiliated/voxadam) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[9:35] <Benguin> (should mention my keys are blank, and passwords are often hidden while you type)
[9:36] * twikz (~twikz@client-6cd48c8e22b50d51.pool.twikz.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:39] * mike_t (~mike@pluto.dd.vaz.ru) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[9:44] <pagios> i am running raspberrypi 3.6.11+
[9:44] <pagios> is this the latest release?
[9:45] <ShiftPlusOne> release of the kernel?
[9:46] <pagios> yea
[9:46] <pagios> i mean the one working on the rasperry
[9:47] <ShiftPlusOne> probably... it doesn't really matter, as long as it's the one provided with raspbian and you update once in a while.
[9:47] <ShiftPlusOne> I know 3.6.y is the stable/recommended tree
[9:47] <pagios> i want to upgrade to 3.11 :/
[9:47] <pagios> possible?
[9:48] <ShiftPlusOne> Not if you want to use all of the pi's hardware
[9:49] * rburton- (~rburton-@ Quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
[9:50] <ShiftPlusOne> This thread may help you understand how the kernel development works and how it relates to the mainline kernel http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=52190&view=unread#p401455
[9:53] * tinuva (~tinuva@blvd-cr1-nat1.wa.co.za) has joined #raspberrypi
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[9:59] * engkur (~engkur@ Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[9:59] * divine (~divine@2001:470:8247:1::42) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[10:02] * WeirdCat (WeirdCat@unaffiliated/weirdcat) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:11] * Hydra (~Hydra@46-65-54-87.zone16.bethere.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:11] -barjavel.freenode.net- Server Terminating. Received SIGTERM
[10:11] * Disconnected.
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[10:12] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
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These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.