#raspberrypi IRC Log

Index

IRC Log for 2017-12-15

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:00] <red9> KIM-1 - 6502 power ;-)
[0:01] * cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[0:01] <red9> For some reason it won't run X11..
[0:01] <caoliver> Not quite gone yet.
[0:01] <caoliver> gordonDrogon, killer box in its time I expect.
[0:01] * supajerm (~supajerm@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/supajerm) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[0:02] <caoliver> ttyl fer realz
[0:02] <akk> Grr, I wish rpi people believed in documentation. Hardly anything has man pages or -h or anything.
[0:03] <red9> it's crazy that people nowadays carry around supercomputer power dirt cheap.
[0:03] * akk tries to figure out what arguments raspistill takes
[0:03] <red9> raspistill is?
[0:03] <akk> Take a photo with the picam.
[0:04] <akk> Turns out (I found out from googling) raspistill with no arguments gives a usage.
[0:04] <akk> I'm trying to figure out how to do that at less than full resolution
[0:05] * mossman93 (~mossman93@unaffiliated/mossman93) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:05] <red9> pnmscale?
[0:05] <red9> maybe misses the object but it does work.
[0:05] <red9> objective.
[0:05] <akk> Sure, I could scale it afterward. But surely the app has that option?
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[0:06] * waveform (~waveform@80.229.34.140) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[0:07] * akk gives up and uses a custom python script instead
[0:11] <red9> you should use Perl :p
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[0:13] * defsdoor (~andy@cpc120600-sutt6-2-0-cust177.19-1.cable.virginm.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[0:14] * Tenacious-Techhu (6c14db73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.20.219.115) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:14] <Tenacious-Techhu> Is there a way to use BerryBoot without the whole squashfs thing, and without having BerryBoot reformat the SD card?
[0:14] <Tenacious-Techhu> Allowing Linux to format SD cards has been a historically bad idea...
[0:14] <red9> --mode 7
[0:14] <red9> may work?
[0:15] * cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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[0:16] <red9> raspistill -o image.jpg -w 640 -h 480
[0:17] <red9> https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/raspbian/applications/camera.md
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[0:19] * dalmata (~dalmatHG@unaffiliated/dalmathg) Quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
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[0:22] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, is there a way to use BerryBoot without using squashfs or having BerryBoot reformat the SD card?
[0:22] * shantorn (~W7SAK-Sha@67-5-133-199.ptld.qwest.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[0:23] * GenteelBen (GenteelBen@81.107.40.56) Quit ()
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[0:28] <akk> Thanks, red9
[0:29] <akk> though meanwhile I got my python script working so I'll probably use that tonight anyway.
[0:29] * swift110 (~swift110@unaffiliated/swift110) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[0:30] <akk> We just started a pi club here, and I'm going to be showing people some circuits and thought it might help to snap the circuit with the pi cam and show it on the projector.
[0:35] <red9> tip.. snap many shots. Then average between them to cancel the noise.
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[0:36] <red9> As I'll suspect the RP-camera to be noisy.
[0:37] <akk> I'll keep it in mind if I need quality, but hopefully for a short demo tonight it won't matter.
[0:38] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, BerryBoot?
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[0:54] * Case77 (~Case77@pool-108-44-19-238.albyny.east.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: User disconnected)
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[1:32] <akk> Is there an app that displays live video output from a pi camera? That seemed like a no-brainer but I'm not finding much in a web search.
[1:32] <akk> An app that uses X, I mean, not the camera preview that can only write to the framebuffer.
[1:33] * mossman93 (~mossman93@unaffiliated/mossman93) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[1:33] <akk> My searches are either finding people wanting to run windows (if I use the word "window"), or talking about live streaming via a web server.
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[1:36] * Madatnek (~Madatnek@c-50a6db54.046-15-7673745.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[1:37] <akk> Unfortunately x and window are hard to search for (it ignores x and substitutes windows, the os, for window).
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[1:45] <ShorTie> there is rpi-cam-web https://github.com/silvanmelchior/RPi_Cam_Web_Interface
[1:45] <ShorTie> if that helps
[1:47] * taza (~taza@unaffiliated/taza) Quit ()
[1:51] <akk> Not really, there's lots of stuff on how to stream over the web
[1:51] <akk> but nothing on how to show it in a local window.
[1:52] * Tenacious-Techhu (6c14db73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.20.219.115) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:55] <Tenacious-Techhu> Anyone else have trouble with the Fedora LXQt spin?
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[5:05] <tnewman> anyone messing around with BTRFS on raspbian?
[5:06] <tnewman> tried making a mirror but it fell over
[5:06] <tnewman> the two drives are powered by USB
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[5:07] <tnewman> one is an SSD, the other is a 5400rpm HDD (aewsome rite?)
[5:07] <tnewman> and i'm thinking i might be hitting the limits of power output over usb
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[5:28] <oq> tnewman: wouldn't something like snapraid be better for that sort of setup?
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[5:34] <tnewman> well
[5:35] <tnewman> i wanted to use either zfs or btrfs
[5:35] * tnewman googles snapraid
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[5:42] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, it is inadvisable to use zfs without ECC RAM, which the Raspberry Pi does not have.
[5:42] <shauno> I thought zfs and btrfs had notable ram requirements? or is that just specific featuresets
[5:44] <CoJaBo> ..what makes zfs so much more picky about RAM than ext4 or whatever?
[5:44] <Tenacious-Techhu> zfs pools are prone to self-destruction when they are written to from bad RAM; instead of one file being corrupted, the whole pool is.
[5:44] <tnewman> fiiiiiiine
[5:44] <CoJaBo> that.. just seems like a poor design to me lol
[5:44] <shauno> I know deduplication uses nutty amounts of ram, I'm less clued in on any other features
[5:45] <tnewman> weeeeell what about btrfs
[5:45] <Tenacious-Techhu> The problem is fairly specific to zfs.
[5:45] * davr0s (~textual@host81-155-65-221.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:46] <tnewman> i've got zfs running on a server (ubuntu)
[5:46] <Tenacious-Techhu> Does it have ECC RAM?
[5:46] <tnewman> buts its got like ~150gigs of ram
[5:46] <tnewman> actually i'm not sure if its ecc or not
[5:46] <tnewman> i think it is?
[5:46] <Tenacious-Techhu> It's not a matter of quantity.
[5:46] <Tenacious-Techhu> It's a matter of quality.
[5:46] <tnewman> its a 2u supermicro
[5:46] <CoJaBo> I don't think I have access to any machines or servers with ECC <_<
[5:47] <Tenacious-Techhu> As far as zfs is concerned, it could be 1GB of ECC. :P
[5:47] <Tenacious-Techhu> Most people wouldn't, CoJaBo.
[5:47] <Tenacious-Techhu> Using zfs without ECC RAM, and the motherboard and CPU to handle it correctly, is a really bad idea.
[5:47] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: I work for a place that has its own datacenter lol
[5:48] * mossman93 (~mossman93@unaffiliated/mossman93) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[5:48] * mossman93 (~mossman93@unaffiliated/mossman93) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:48] <Tenacious-Techhu> If the server has a Xeon in it, it probably has ECC RAM, too; unless the guy in charge of equipment purchasing is an idiot.
[5:48] <CoJaBo> All of their machines are just built to have insane amounts of storage; 1.2PB currently
[5:48] <tnewman> that would be me :3
[5:48] <tnewman> and
[5:48] <tnewman> it is xeon!~
[5:49] * jdawgaz (~Jerry@ip70-176-27-239.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[5:49] <tnewman> two of them in fact
[5:49] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@106.202.49.223) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:49] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you have Xeons, you would be foolish not to spring for ECC RAM for the thing.
[5:49] * YuGiOhJCJ (~YuGiOhJCJ@gateway/tor-sasl/yugiohjcj) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:49] <CoJaBo> The highest-end machine, I think is an i5
[5:49] <Tenacious-Techhu> Put it on your "Things to do to keep the data from being destroyed" list.
[5:50] <tnewman> right
[5:50] <tnewman> well
[5:50] <Mad7Scientist> ECC isn't needed for multimedia
[5:50] <Mad7Scientist> or game servers that crash all the time anyway
[5:50] <Tenacious-Techhu> I never said it was; I said it was needed for storage of a zfs file system.
[5:50] <tnewman> right now i'm not in the same hemisphere as my server
[5:50] <Mad7Scientist> ahh
[5:50] <tnewman> which makes checking difficult :\
[5:50] <CoJaBo> Redundancy is handled in a bit of an odd way there; it's not zfs, it's not even ext
[5:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> Even without zfs, ECC has benefits, if your data is important.
[5:51] * pk12 (~pk12@199.241.146.163) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[5:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you don't mind a little bit rot here and there, you can afford to skip it...
[5:51] <Mad7Scientist> How about good old ReiserFS?
[5:51] <tnewman> bit rot is the whole reason why i'm using zfsssss
[5:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> Then you need ECC, too.
[5:52] <tnewman> hmm
[5:52] <Tenacious-Techhu> It won't do you any good to perfectly store your data if the data you are writing to it has the wrong bits in it.
[5:52] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: IIRC, it's all cryptographically hashed. If something gets corrupt, from any source, it gets copied form somewhere else =D
[5:52] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, I'm not following you.
[5:53] <CoJaBo> How to manage crazy storage without bothering with ECC
[5:53] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@106.202.49.223) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[5:53] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, it's the RAM that decides whether something is corrupt or not.
[5:53] <tnewman> https://superuser.com/questions/893560/how-do-i-tell-if-my-memory-is-ecc-or-non-ecc/894048
[5:54] <Tenacious-Techhu> So it can read a corrupt piece of data, and decide it's legit.
[5:54] <tnewman> "The Total Width: 72 bits is the part you are looking for."
[5:54] * pk12 (~pk12@199.241.146.163) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:54] <tnewman> does this look right?
[5:54] <Tenacious-Techhu> Or it can read a piece of data, decide it's corrupt, try to back up, decide the backup is corrupt, and blow the whole system.
[5:54] * YuGiOhJCJ (~YuGiOhJCJ@gateway/tor-sasl/yugiohjcj) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[5:55] * akar (~user@182.253.1.146) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[5:55] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: The backup is always on a physically seperate machine, in this case
[5:55] <CoJaBo> At least 2 of them would have to have matching errors to cause a problem that autodoc couldn't solve
[5:56] * YuGiOhJCJ (~YuGiOhJCJ@gateway/tor-sasl/yugiohjcj) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:56] <tnewman> alright well we can rest easily guise
[5:56] <tnewman> pretty sure im running ecc
[5:56] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, the RAM does the copying from one to the other, remember.
[5:56] <Tenacious-Techhu> So it reads in good data, and fails the checksum due to the bad RAM.
[5:57] <Tenacious-Techhu> Or reads in bad data, and succeeds at the checksum, due to the bad RAM.
[5:57] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: In the first case, it'd then decide the disk is corrupt, and do a pointless copy from backup
[5:58] <Tenacious-Techhu> But the copy would also be considered bad.
[5:58] <caoliver> How much bad RAM have you seen in the flesh. This is getting to sound like someone refusing to fly on an Airplane because there have been some crashes in the past.
[5:58] <Tenacious-Techhu> Because the RAM does the copying.
[5:58] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: If it's actually got a persistant RAM error (not a soft error), the system will just crash
[5:58] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, the issue hinges on how you feel about your files gettng bit rot or not.
[5:58] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you do'
[5:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you don't care if the occasional file corrupts, don't bother with ECC.
[5:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you do care about every file, get ECC.
[5:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> And if you'
[5:59] <caoliver> There is risk in all life. Do you have a halon dump for these ECC machines? If not your machine room could catch fire and destroy your data.
[5:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> And if you're going to go with zfs, you better use ECC, or you'll lose your whole pool.\
[5:59] <CoJaBo> At large enough scale, I'm not convinced ECC is enough; this thing is designed to assume the CPU will lie
[5:59] <tnewman> that hasnt been my understanding of how zfs handles bit rot
[5:59] <caoliver> I think there's a touch of FUD going on here.
[6:00] <tnewman> if you've got a mirror to work from, and logs are intact somewhere, ram doesnt matter
[6:00] * divadsn (~divadsn@vweb.codebucket.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[6:00] <CoJaBo> Apparently, it's supposed to be upgraded to 32PB, assuming that isn't a typo
[6:00] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, ECC isn't designed to overcome the CPU lying; it's designed to overcome one bit of writing from the CPU to the RAM going wrong, or of a bit in the RAM being flipped.
[6:00] <tnewman> it knows (through some black wizardry) what data is good data
[6:01] <caoliver> Actually the algebra of error correcting codes isn't magic.
[6:01] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: The point I was getting at, is there are other (even if uncommon) ways than ECC to prevent data corruption :P
[6:01] <caoliver> Look up Hamming distance.
[6:01] <Tenacious-Techhu> It can also tell you your RAM is going haywire BEFORE your data gets destroyed.
[6:01] <tnewman> it is to this idiot
[6:01] * tnewman points thumbs at self
[6:01] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, those other things do not address the problem that ECC addresses.
[6:02] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: Yes, but done properly, it makes the ECC redundant
[6:02] <Tenacious-Techhu> No, it doesn't, and cannot.
[6:02] <tnewman> http://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
[6:02] <Tenacious-Techhu> They each address different, mutually exclusive sources of corruption.
[6:02] <caoliver> The choice of ECC or not is a matter of odds. Even with ECC, you're not guaranteed error free computing.
[6:02] <Tenacious-Techhu> I never said you would be.
[6:02] * caoliver refuses to be dogmatic.
[6:03] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: The worst thing that could happen from (soft) RAM corruption is that a server copies from backup a block of data that it thought was corrupt, when it actually wasn't.
[6:03] <Tenacious-Techhu> Wrong, CoJaBo.
[6:03] <caoliver> What is an acceptable probability of data corruption, and what are you willing to pay in money and performance for that?
[6:03] <CoJaBo> A hard error might cause that copy to happen in a loop, at least until the damn thing kernel-panics
[6:04] <Tenacious-Techhu> Every time that block of RAM is written to the disk, it introduces errors.
[6:04] <tnewman> yeah i dont think this is a real scenario
[6:04] <Tenacious-Techhu> Which includes copying from other volumes.
[6:04] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: Which would get fixed next time that block is read
[6:04] <caoliver> Would you stop with the fear mongering!
[6:04] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, when things are written to a disk, where do you think they are written FROM?
[6:04] <tnewman> i admit that bad ram is bad
[6:05] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: I'm not talking about ZFS, I'm talking about an alternate system that assumes non-usage of ECC
[6:05] * caoliver is running bog standard PCs and has lost far more from failing media than anything from RAM.
[6:05] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, no, it wouldn't; the RAM wrote it, so there is no reason to suspect anything is wrong with it.
[6:05] <caoliver> tnewman, indeed.
[6:05] <tnewman> but i dont think that the doomsday scenario that you're painting, along with the one addressed in this article, is in the realm of possibility
[6:05] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: Again, a system that's designed to assume any data read from disk is corrupt, until proven otherwise
[6:05] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, I have no doubt that failing media is, in fact, of greater concern, on the whole; I never said it wasn't.
[6:06] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, there's no way to implement such a system; either the RAM does a checksum, or the RAM compares one dataset against another.
[6:06] <caoliver> But you're basically writing off non-ECC equipped machines as toys. Sorry, I'm not going there.
[6:06] <Tenacious-Techhu> Without ECC RAM, the thing just fails.
[6:06] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: It's called "hashing"
[6:06] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, I'm doing no such thing.
[6:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> It is up to the user to decide whether or not he cares about bitrot.
[6:07] <tnewman> hnnnng i didnt mean to start a food fight
[6:07] <caoliver> Then you should temper your tone!
[6:07] <CoJaBo> lol
[6:07] <tnewman> what do you think of that article Tenacious-Techhu
[6:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> There's nothing wrong with my tone.
[6:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, I'll have to get back to you about that.
[6:07] <caoliver> There are none so blind as those who will not see.
[6:07] * divadsn (~divadsn@vweb.codebucket.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, hashing depends on the RAM functioning correctly in order to perform the hashing function.
[6:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> Nothing about the hashing function itself is resistant to the single bit errors introduced by the RAM.
[6:08] <caoliver> This is a matter of probability. THERE IS NO PERFECTION. Get over it!
[6:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> I never said there was.
[6:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> However, there is room for improvement.
[6:08] <caoliver> Then it's a matter of acceptable risk.'
[6:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you care about avoiding bitrot, then you should take every step available to you in avoiding it.
[6:09] <tnewman> i am using ecc, not sure if yall saw that :)
[6:09] <caoliver> Because there is always risk.
[6:09] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: That'd cause the machine to crash tho; every computed hash would be wrong, so it would never be able to read any data from disk. That's actually a pretty clean failure, as the machine would time out and be marked for repair automatically.
[6:09] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you don't care about avoiding bitrot, by all means, go for the cheaper thing.
[6:09] <tnewman> hoooomg
[6:09] <tnewman> so
[6:09] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: At larger scales, the cheaper thing is better
[6:09] <tnewman> the whole reason why i was exploring this
[6:09] <caoliver> You are too damn absolutist.
[6:09] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, the machine can fail in the hashing function without crashing.
[6:09] <tnewman> was because i wanted redundant root storage for the pi
[6:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, the cheaper thing is only better if it can do the same job..
[6:10] <caoliver> I'm tired of this. I have software to write.
[6:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> The pi has no ECC anyway.
[6:10] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: If the hash is computed wrong, then it doesn't match the stored hash. The read op fails, and it copied it from backup (whether it was actually corupt or not, doesn't matter)
[6:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, I am not an absolutist.
[6:11] <Tenacious-Techhu> It is a matter of the correct decision based on your chosen priorities.
[6:11] <Tenacious-Techhu> Either you care about bitrot, or you don't.
[6:11] <tnewman> ecc or no ecc
[6:11] <caoliver> And you're dictating the priorities to suit your argument. This is getting tedious.
[6:11] <tnewman> i wanted to have a software raid setup, with something fancy like zfs or btrfs
[6:11] <Tenacious-Techhu> Not everyone has to, and, as such, not everyone has to spend money doing it.
[6:11] <caoliver> No. It is NOT a binary choice.
[6:11] <Tenacious-Techhu> I am not dictating priorities.
[6:11] <tnewman> :D
[6:11] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: The odds of correct data hashing to the correct hash is 1 in 2^128, which is many orders of magnitude better than ECC can promise =D
[6:12] <Tenacious-Techhu> It is up to each person to decide for themselves what their priorities are.
[6:12] <CoJaBo> incorrect*
[6:12] <Tenacious-Techhu> Nevertheless, when a person has a specific priority, there are best practices associated with that priority.
[6:12] <caoliver> If I need ECC, then someone else will have to buy it for me.
[6:12] <Tenacious-Techhu> And, in the case of preventing bit rot, ECC RAM is a necessary step.
[6:12] <caoliver> Best practices === dogma.
[6:13] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: Unless you have petabytes of disks lol
[6:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, all I am saying is that, by making that choice, you are taking on additional risk of bitrot.
[6:13] <tnewman> Tenacious-Techhu: check this article http://jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/
[6:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> It is up to you to care about that; I have no intention of forcing you to do so, or even recommending you do so.
[6:13] <caoliver> Yes. I think I stand a greater chance of getting hit over the head by a falling piano.
[6:13] <tnewman> it addresses (pun) exactly what you're talking about
[6:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, I have it open in my browser; I will get to it.
[6:13] <CoJaBo> caoliver: place I work at is definitely rated for the building being hit by a falling piano
[6:14] <Tenacious-Techhu> I am merely stating that, if you were to care about bitrot, then you would be well advised to use ECC RAM.
[6:14] <CoJaBo> =D
[6:14] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: You've said that a bunch of times. Even tho there are a few cases where it isn't an absolute.
[6:14] <caoliver> We're sorry, but we could not fulfill your request for /2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/ on this server.
[6:15] <shauno> odd. works here too
[6:15] <CoJaBo> caoliver: Server admin must've cheaped out on the ECC RAM :/
[6:15] <caoliver> The question is what expense are you willing to incur to avoid bitrot due to a bit flip? That is not a binary matter.
[6:15] <caoliver> Heh!
[6:15] <CoJaBo> ləl
[6:15] <CoJaBo> "You do not have permission to access this server. Before trying again, run anti-virus and anti-spyware software and remove any viruses and spyware from your computer."
[6:16] <CoJaBo> Dafuq?
[6:16] <caoliver> Tenacious-Techhu is corrupting our memory. Run for the bomb shelter.
[6:16] <shauno> odd. if I refresh, it does the same for me too now. it worked fine 5 minutes ago
[6:16] <CoJaBo> Someone dun goofed: Your IP address appeared on the third-party Project Honey Pot list as a source of spam or other malicious activity. Project Honey Pot listing for 0.0.0.0
[6:17] <shauno> lol
[6:17] <shauno> oh, it opened this time
[6:17] <caoliver> Got it.
[6:17] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, I never said it was a binary matter.
[6:17] <tnewman> https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WgcblT0bOUMJ:jrs-s.net/2015/02/03/will-zfs-and-non-ecc-ram-kill-your-data/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=tw
[6:17] <Tenacious-Techhu> ECC RAM doesn't cost that much more than the regular stuff.
[6:17] <CoJaBo> What kind of imbicile uses a spam blacklist to prevent people from reading articles anyway‽
[6:18] <shauno> you're pretty much treating it as one though. You're positioning it that there's only one correct answer
[6:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> No, there's only one correct answer if you care about preventing bit rot.
[6:18] <shauno> if that's not binary, what is?
[6:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you're willing to accept some bit rot, then you are free to spend less money.
[6:19] <shauno> or if you're dealing with it in other manners.
[6:20] <caoliver> You keep phrasing that as a binary question. I've disputed that, and you refuse to reconize it. You're trolling.
[6:20] <caoliver> recognize
[6:20] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'm not trolling, and it is not a binary question.
[6:20] <shauno> then stop positioning that there's a binary answer
[6:20] <Tenacious-Techhu> There is, admittedly, a scale, upon which you evaluate your intention to prevent bit rot vs. your intention to save money.
[6:20] <caoliver> You make a choice based on the ODDS of data destruction.
[6:21] <Tenacious-Techhu> Nevertheless, if your intention is to prevent bit rot, period, then you need ECC RAM.
[6:21] <caoliver> Good. I'm glad you've come to that point.
[6:21] <CoJaBo> "By default, ZFS uses 256-bit SHA validation hashes" ..so, basically, ZFS already prevents against the issue that the large-scale install I work on is designed to prevent
[6:21] <shauno> We're way past that. we're at the point where bitrot on one machine does not matter. Nothing's on one machine.
[6:21] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, none of that invalidates anything I've said previously.
[6:21] <Tenacious-Techhu> You simply refused to take my if statement literally.
[6:21] <CoJaBo> So, ZFS sounds pretty immune to the problem, even running on one machine vs. the huge scale network
[6:22] <Tenacious-Techhu> Please stop reading things into what I say that I haven't actually said.
[6:22] <caoliver> I'm tired of your blather. This is not why I came to this channel. Welcome to ignore.
[6:22] <Tenacious-Techhu> No, zfs is not immune to the problem at all.
[6:22] * pepee (~pepee@unaffiliated/pepee) Quit (Quit: bye $IRC)
[6:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> The hash function isn't going to work if bad RAM is being used.
[6:23] <caoliver> I'm sorry. But mere repetition doesn't make your argument any more appealing. I'm done with you for good.
[6:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> I never said my argument was appealing; I said it was correct.
[6:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> If you want an appealing argument, talk to someone else.
[6:23] <red9> Even if the filesystem have checksums (SHA) it may be regenerated or otherwise unprotected inside DRAM memory which necessitates memory checksum hardware (ECC).
[6:23] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: I can't see a scenario even ZFS would fall to this. Letalone a distributed network storage system, which it looks like *generally* assumes non-ECC; other companies do the same thing
[6:23] <shauno> It's horribly blinkered though. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
[6:24] <caoliver> I just want to discuss programming the Pi.
[6:24] <tnewman> thats why i came here!
[6:24] <CoJaBo> ZFS on an SDcard would be hilarious tho, it'd still auto-corrupt just by breathing on it wrong xD
[6:24] <tnewman> / on a raid1 mirrored array (two external usb drives)
[6:25] <red9> Due to normal alpha radiation at sea level. The statistics is one bitflip/Gigabyte/hour.
[6:25] * caoliver actually should do some programming rather than just talk about it. He needs to refactor a protocol between a Pi and an Arduino.
[6:25] <CoJaBo> tnewman: TBH, it sounds like a performance nightmare, for one
[6:25] <tnewman> oh i'm sure it would be
[6:25] <tnewman> especially because of the drives i'm using
[6:25] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, tnewman was considering running zfs; I was merely giving him enough information to make the decision for himself.
[6:25] * LFlare (~LFlare@unaffiliated/lflare) Quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io)
[6:26] <tnewman> one is an ssd in an enclosure, the other is a 5400rpm laptop hard drive in another usb enclosure
[6:26] <tnewman> i tried creating a btrfs array, but i think the pi is straining just to power the drives
[6:26] <CoJaBo> tnewman: Another problem with USB drives is they suck, so they'd drop out of the array willy-nilly, requiring manual rebuild each time
[6:26] <caoliver> That doesn't sound like a fun arrangement.
[6:26] <caoliver> Eek.
[6:26] * YuGiOhJCJ (~YuGiOhJCJ@gateway/tor-sasl/yugiohjcj) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:26] <red9> Expand the RPi memory with USB memory stick using DRAM instead of flash. Then swap to it. The alternative is to use a computer with the right specifications (DRAM) from the start ;)
[6:26] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, thank you for lending some data to this argument.
[6:27] <tnewman> so then, waht would one of you fine people suggest as a way of achieving redundant / storage?
[6:27] <caoliver> About the only thing I do with USB disks is take a snapshot of a Linux install to use as a prototype for a new machine.
[6:27] * caoliver likes a RAIC arrangement. (Redundant array of inexpensive computers.)
[6:27] <tnewman> lol
[6:27] <tnewman> yea
[6:27] * LFlare (~LFlare@unaffiliated/lflare) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:27] <CoJaBo> tnewman: A regular drive, and multiple backups of that drive. Or at least, RAID on something sane lol
[6:28] <tnewman> raid on something sane doesnt fit with my zeal at the moment
[6:28] <red9> tnewman, Networked machine that has the resources (memory+disc) to handle backups.
[6:28] <caoliver> RAIDs an availability solution, not a backup solution.
[6:28] <red9> Or tape..
[6:28] <CoJaBo> caoliver: one I work in is almost a RAIDC
[6:28] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, it sounds like you want a home NAS with ECC memory on it.
[6:28] <caoliver> double sided sticky!
[6:28] <CoJaBo> caoliver: Redundant array of inexpensive data centers =D
[6:28] <red9> Oh and USB sucks! ;-)
[6:28] <tnewman> i've got a 2u supermicro in hometown dallas
[6:28] <Tenacious-Techhu> A Raspberry Pi is not the platform you want if you care about bit rot.
[6:28] <tnewman> zfs
[6:29] <tnewman> no, but heres the thing
[6:29] <caoliver> Heh! I'd dispute the (in-).
[6:29] <tnewman> little off topic but here goes
[6:29] <tnewman> in taiwan
[6:29] <tnewman> the land of acer, asus, msi, etc
[6:29] <CoJaBo> You could drop a thermonuclear ICBM on the datacenter, and it would not care, because it's backed up offsite lol
[6:29] <tnewman> stuff is on average mmmmm~10% more than it is in the US
[6:29] <red9> The land China wants to p0wn ;)
[6:29] * pavlushka (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[6:29] <tnewman> not only that
[6:29] * caoliver wants the company he's hacking for to put it two offsite VPN connected boxes as backup code repos.
[6:30] <caoliver> put in
[6:30] <tnewman> but income (my income) is about 1/2 to 1/3 of what it was in america (basically same work duties / position)
[6:30] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@103.201.141.10) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:30] <red9> caoliver, only onsite backup now?
[6:30] <caoliver> There might not be survivors who valued the data, but it would still exist. ;)
[6:30] <tnewman> food and housing scales with income, but luxury goods (pc parts), are just as expensive as they are in america
[6:31] <red9> ;-)
[6:31] <CoJaBo> caoliver: That's pretty much their brocure rofl
[6:31] <caoliver> red9: startup. Little budget
[6:31] <tnewman> so my I WANNA BILD A SERBER goals are a little more out of reach than they are in states
[6:31] <tnewman> = i'm using a pi
[6:31] <red9> tnewman, reconfigure country location :)
[6:31] <Tenacious-Techhu> caoliver, your best option is to dumpster-dive where all the datacenters are, and see if you can find/reconstruct a Xeon something from their scraps.
[6:31] <tnewman> red9: its crossed my mind plenty
[6:31] <Tenacious-Techhu> Sorry, I meant tnewman.
[6:31] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: It turns out they do have one Xeon box
[6:31] <caoliver> I'm using old Optiplexes for my serious stuff.
[6:32] <CoJaBo> It's a "Pentium III Xeon"
[6:32] <tnewman> yeah that'd be the goal
[6:32] <tnewman> i'm a big fan of supermicro stuff because so many of their motherboards are ATX
[6:32] <red9> Anyway.. Spinning rust is not a backup solution. Just a stop gap until it LART's the user.
[6:32] <Tenacious-Techhu> Sorry, I was still using PowerPC back in the Pentium III days...
[6:32] <tnewman> so i can (within reason) use any cheapo case i can get my hands on with the other usual bits and i'll be set
[6:33] <caoliver> red9: you prefer rust on a ribbon?
[6:33] <tnewman> just hasnt happened yet
[6:33] <CoJaBo> It's got 256MB RAM; no word on if it's ECC or not
[6:33] <red9> Spinning optics and tape is a solution. (until the tape dries out)
[6:33] <tnewman> dmidecode -t 17 | grep "Total Width:"
[6:33] <tnewman> if it returns 72bits its ECC
[6:33] <CoJaBo> Also, egads, the RAID disk that a Mily Cyrus JPEG killed, still has not been replaced :/
[6:34] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, even if I'm advising ECC, that doesn't mean I'm advising new hardware; recycling old hardware for this purpose may be a good idea.
[6:34] <caoliver> See, Miley's dangerous for you health.
[6:34] <caoliver> your
[6:34] <red9> If the world had followed DEC. We would have had 6-bit multiples and not be able to do such sure fire analysis ;)
[6:34] <tnewman> oh i'm definitely in favor of used hardware Tenacious-Techhu
[6:34] <Tenacious-Techhu> Consider using the Raspberry Pi as a Thin Client, rather than as your backup solution.
[6:34] * caoliver can't afford the new computer smell at the moment.
[6:34] <tnewman> everything in that 2U (including the 2U) is not new
[6:35] <CoJaBo> tnewman: Total Width: 64 bits kək
[6:35] <red9> used = cheap.
[6:35] <tnewman> lol
[6:35] <tnewman> yep, zero qualms against getting used
[6:35] <CoJaBo> So someone DID put non-ECC into a Xeon xD
[6:35] <caoliver> red9: I'd love a 72bit machine. (Double PDP-10)
[6:35] <Tenacious-Techhu> Oh, yeah, you CAN use non-ECC into a Xeon.
[6:36] <Tenacious-Techhu> But if you're going to pay for a Xeon, you might as well pay for ECC RAM.
[6:36] <caoliver> I've built enough stuff to get nervous about infant mortality.
[6:36] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: this one BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!
[6:37] <CoJaBo> It still uses IDE disks, which they have never stocked
[6:37] <Tenacious-Techhu> Tell that to the old switch flipper I have in my garage.
[6:37] * caoliver should sometime set up a SIMH PDP-10 and boot ITS.
[6:37] <CoJaBo> (wouldn't it usually be SCSI tho? That also seems odd..)
[6:37] <tnewman> and really
[6:38] <Tenacious-Techhu> It's an Imsai 8080.
[6:38] <CoJaBo> I want one of those :/
[6:38] <tnewman> if i'm getting used, going back a few socket generations, i cant imagine mmmm 32gb? of ecc ram is going to be turrible
[6:39] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, is there any reason your backup solution has to be any kind of high performance?
[6:39] <red9> ZFS = 8 GB is recommended as minimum. The data-suicidal may try 1 GB.
[6:39] <CoJaBo> How do I actually check what type of disk is installed; maybe the docs are just wrong lol
[6:39] <red9> (RAM memory that is)
[6:39] <tnewman> performance is not a requirement
[6:39] <tnewman> (see: pi)
[6:39] <caoliver> red9: or why I don't run ZFS.
[6:40] <shauno> for old ram, I'd look for prices before making assumptions. I snagged a few spare poweredge machines, and found out the ecc ram for them apparently holds value much, much better than I expected
[6:40] <tnewman> i just want fault tolerance, redundancy
[6:40] <tnewman> shauno: i shall google when the time comes
[6:40] <Tenacious-Techhu> Yup. I have a feeling zfs will be obsolete well before its size limitations are ever reached.
[6:40] <red9> ZFS is like "Are you chicken?" .. All your data are g0ne ;)
[6:41] * GerhardSchr_ (~GerhardSc@unaffiliated/gerhardschr) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[6:42] <red9> There is open source filesystem developed by Google that gets redundancy through multiple computer units. Instead of SHA/ECC/RAID etc..
[6:42] <tnewman> thats neat
[6:42] <caoliver> Called?
[6:42] <shauno> gfs?
[6:42] <red9> Ie a lot of cheap shit. But probability makes it work in the users favour.
[6:42] <tnewman> dont need much of an excuse to get more pis
[6:43] <red9> shauno, maybe..
[6:43] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, if you can only find 4 or so drives, a RAID 10 would be good. If you can find a bunch of drives, though, you could go with a RAID 6.
[6:43] <red9> Memory recovery of those wetbits are not 100% :p
[6:43] <shauno> google are fine with a lot of cheap machines. once you scale 'a lot' to proportions that blow your mind, it stops mattering
[6:44] <tnewman> Tenacious-Techhu: on the server back in dallas its a raid 10 smeared across a bunch of 2tb
[6:44] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, it depends on for what purpose you are scaling.
[6:44] <red9> A 19" 3U rack with vertically mounted Pi's should be able to make use of this.
[6:45] <shauno> they do redundant datacenters like we do redundant machines. it's nuts
[6:45] <red9> Btw, what is the sustained SSD write speed of a decently priced SSD these days?
[6:45] <tnewman> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/d3713da57146cdcd5ed7bfab23b0abe0
[6:45] <CoJaBo> shauno: I wonder if that's what they're using then.. as is typical, the actual platform used is not documented
[6:45] <Tenacious-Techhu> Am I wrong in thinking that no one bothers with less than Class 10 anymore?
[6:45] * KE0OHD (~Goldschla@24-111-126-57-dynamic.midco.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:45] <KE0OHD> Hello
[6:46] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, also, don't buy from eBay; lots of fake SD Cards on there.
[6:46] <CoJaBo> Also, amazon
[6:47] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, People does what works..
[6:47] <Tenacious-Techhu> Slickdeals works well in the States for cheap SD cards...
[6:47] <tnewman> yeah i've had alright luck with what i've obtained from ebay
[6:47] <tnewman> but noted ;)
[6:47] <CoJaBo> Amazon was listing 512TB SDcards last I checked lol
[6:47] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, sorry, in reference to?
[6:47] <tnewman> salutations KE0OHD
[6:47] <red9> Another thing to not buy from eBait is mains connected stuff.
[6:48] <Tenacious-Techhu> tnewman, eBay cards use fraudulent size limits.
[6:48] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, Class 10 RAID
[6:48] <Tenacious-Techhu> Adding more data than what the card can actually take will overwrite where you've already written.
[6:48] <tnewman> i'm not sure ive ever gotten an SD card from ebay
[6:48] <tnewman> usb drive yes
[6:48] <tnewman> though i have heard about what you're saying before
[6:48] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, once you get over 6 disks, it makes more sense to go with RAID 6, I think.
[6:48] <CoJaBo> red9: Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNjA0aee07k
[6:49] <red9> USB.. flaky connector. Drive reconnect, filesystem wtf?.. fsck.. lost+found/ .. *joy*
[6:49] <Tenacious-Techhu> Also, HARDWARE RAID; software RAID is for suckers.
[6:49] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: The size of the disks matters too
[6:49] <tnewman> i'm using an HBA in mine
[6:49] <tnewman> had a raid card but it started acting oddly
[6:50] <CoJaBo> This installation uses 64TB RAID0 arrays
[6:50] <Tenacious-Techhu> CoJaBo, in terms of mean time between failure, sure, I guess, but I don't see how that applies to which RAID to pick, unless you start counting drive by 10s...
[6:50] <red9> Hardware RAID is for those that want a surprise when drive layout is undocumented and a new card can't be had. :p
[6:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, can you elaborate?
[6:51] <tnewman> red9: thats exactly why i wanted to move away from hw raid
[6:51] <tnewman> also not wanted to be married to a particular card mfgr
[6:51] <tnewman> also hba's are cheaper
[6:52] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:52] <red9> "Inside a heated shower head. (suicide shower)" - classic. Common in Thailand I think.
[6:53] <Tenacious-Techhu> Software RAID has serious problems if the software cuts out mid-write.
[6:53] <shauno> we have electric showers too. just the element isn't in the head, it's a box on/in the wall
[6:53] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, When the hw-raid fails. You can't get any recovery tools nor move it all to a new machine. Because the card is dead and disc layout is not published.
[6:53] <red9> So you are stuck with like terrabytes of fishing expedition.
[6:54] <Tenacious-Techhu> What, are Hardware RAIDs using custom filesystems these days, or something?
[6:54] <shauno> or you remembered the golden rule that raid=uptime, raid!=backups
[6:54] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, just because it's a backup, that doesn't mean it shouldn't also be a RAID.
[6:54] <red9> shauno, country? and is the element inside a watertight metal tube and isolated electrically with ceramics?
[6:55] <shauno> I have no idea what the element looks like, I have zero desire to crack it open lol. but I'm in Ireland
[6:55] <shauno> I've seen them in the UK too though
[6:55] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, How would you know what filesystem layout it uses?
[6:56] <shauno> the filesystem isn't the problem. it's the relationship between how the blocks are logically laid out & physically laid out
[6:56] <red9> shauno, There's always a latency between backups. It's a lot smoother to just move the disk to the next machine, boot,done.
[6:57] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, forgive my naivete, but I don't see why a Hardware RAID system wouldn't use something bog-standard, so that the system can keep going; is vendor lock-in that big of a problem?
[6:57] * cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[6:57] <shauno> sure. but I mean if your going on a fishing expedition to try to reassemble an array from a host that doesn't like you, your backups should be quicker than fishing
[6:57] <Tenacious-Techhu> What exactly are hardware vendors doing these days to force people to use their cards?
[6:58] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, so they refuse to publish how they stripe the drives?
[6:58] <shauno> I'm not saying either way on that one. just that the hw-raid doesn't understand the filesystem either. the raid card just presents a bunch of blocks to the host
[6:58] <Tenacious-Techhu> Isn't there a standard way of striping drives that all hardware vendors support, and the sysadmin just chooses that one?
[6:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> I don't see why you can't just replace one card that supports RAID 6 with another one that supports RAID 6; or whatever; what's the story?
[7:00] <red9> Dunno how standardized RAID is these days. But I would not bet on it. And the safer and cheaper choice is a software solution. Processing power is also cheap these days.
[7:00] * sdothum (~znc@108.63.119.33) Quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in)
[7:00] * vstehle (~vstehle@rqp06-1-88-178-86-202.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:00] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, RAID is a algorithm. Not a layout format.
[7:00] <Tenacious-Techhu> I don't see how it's cheaper without some serious vendor shenanigans.
[7:00] <red9> vendor is shenanigans..
[7:01] <shauno> not buying a hardware raid card is cheaper than buying a hardware raid card. cheaper is the obvious bit
[7:01] <red9> vendor = profit => the rest follows.
[7:02] <shauno> but I believe software raid moves between machines easier because the state of the array is written to disk, instead of to the raid controller
[7:03] <Tenacious-Techhu> I certainly accept that it is cheaper, sure. I haven't seen enough justification that it's safer, though. I don't see how vendor lock-in problems can't be overcome with adequately careful shopping.
[7:03] <Tenacious-Techhu> Has journaling overcome the RAID write-hole problem?
[7:03] <tnewman> shauno: actually you can import topologies from a raid disk
[7:03] <shauno> I prefer software raid simply because I trust the linux kernel over secretsauce
[7:04] <tnewman> in the dell chassis we had, they called them 'foreign configs'
[7:04] <tnewman> forgot about that
[7:05] <Tenacious-Techhu> Maybe someone needs to Kickstart an open-source Hardware RAID.
[7:05] <shauno> maybe. it'd have to have 10-20 years of battle scars before it'd earn any trust though
[7:05] <tnewman> ciest la vie
[7:05] * dreamon_ is now known as dreamon
[7:06] <red9> Many FPGAs support direct connection to S-ATA nowadays. So any PCI-e <--> FPGA <--> S-ATA can do the job.
[7:06] <shauno> that's the other nice thing about the kernel. I'm not doing anything strange enough that someone else hasn't broken it first
[7:06] <red9> (and you can scramble the bits too while at it)
[7:06] <shauno> it's nice to know there's many, many years of other people breaking things baked into it
[7:06] <Tenacious-Techhu> Well, we can start it out in an Open Source Home NAS with ECC RAM. XD
[7:07] <CoJaBo> I'm very good at breaking the things nobody else has yet broken before
[7:07] <shauno> see. we take the bleeding edge, and beat CoJaBo with it until it's blunt enough for the rest of us to use :)
[7:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> Since we've got some guys who know what they're talking about in here, does the SD Alliance have an approved way of formatting SD cards on Linux?
[7:08] <shauno> (this is basically how I treat zfs & butterfs atm. bleeding edges that need to be dulled against someone else first)
[7:08] <CoJaBo> If you want "official" formatting, just format it in a camera or something
[7:08] <red9> Proper heating element design --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwuhFLsowRc&t=23m48s
[7:09] <CoJaBo> I think all it does is properly align the partition to the eraseblock boundary anyway
[7:09] <red9> SD Alliance are corrupt assholes. ExFat and shit.
[7:10] <red9> secretsauce documentation etc.
[7:10] <shauno> that reminds me. does anyone know why windows would create the first partition on a CF card 1mb in? everything between the mbr & 1mb is wasted (only tested on win7 so far)
[7:11] * Sonar_Guy (~Who@fedora/sonarguy) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[7:11] <red9> So the official format is is usually FAT32 or so. And ExFAT if they got bribed by M$.
[7:11] * realies (8d656371@gateway/web/thelounge/ip.141.101.99.113) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:11] <realies> any way to use a pi to fake a keyboard to a computer?
[7:11] <red9> shauno, guess.. alignment issues?
[7:11] <realies> so the pi would pretend to be a keyboard to a computer it's plugged into
[7:12] <realies> can it be done via the gpio?
[7:12] <tnewman> heyo realies
[7:12] * Sonar_Guy (~Who@fedora/sonarguy) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:12] <red9> realies, USB device mode or USB OTG.. IF supported. Otherwise go for GPIO bitbang see AVR-USB.
[7:12] <shauno> I believe it's fat32 under 64gb and exfat past it?
[7:12] <realies> that seems cool https://github.com/c4software/pi-as-keyboard
[7:13] <shauno> yeah, that's the g_hid driver. the same usb-otg stuff most people use with g_ether to emulate a network device
[7:14] <red9> UFS outperforms M$-FAT any day. As long as it's shutdown properly.
[7:14] <tnewman> what was the take on the new fs from apple?
[7:14] <tnewman> didnt they come out with somethign recently?
[7:15] <shauno> they did, but since it's not supported at all on anything else at all (and is entirely undocumented atm), it makes it mostly irrelevant
[7:16] <shauno> in a nutshell, it ain't zfs by any means, but it's a huge step forward from their previous OS, which was born when harddrives were 20meg
[7:16] <shauno> er, previous fs
[7:17] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, zfs is not "bleeding edge"; it's just fussy. It's been around for YEARS now.
[7:17] <red9> The first Macintosh harddrive was interfaced like a gigantic floppy. ;-)
[7:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, that's an SD card thing; SD cards have screwed up formatting rules. Always format your cards with SD Alliance software, when you can, just to be sure it's done right. Linux, however, doesn't seem to have such an option, at the moment.
[7:18] * Afkbio (~Afk@unaffiliated/afkbio) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[7:19] * Afkbio (~Afk@unaffiliated/afkbio) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:19] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, I hate FAT and ExFAT too, but they're one of the few cross-platform options. The cards have to work in Mac OS too.
[7:19] * cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:19] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@103.201.141.10) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[7:19] <shauno> I was actually looking at CF cards for something entirely unrelated. It's currently messy enough that I format disks with a hex editor
[7:20] <tnewman> shauno: i gotcha
[7:20] <Tenacious-Techhu> realies, you are better off using an Arduino for that; I don't think a Raspberry Pi has the right interface.
[7:20] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@103.201.141.10) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:20] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, Take a look at mtools. Then figure out which parameters that are the official one. Done.
[7:20] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, it seems to be capable of that
[7:21] <realies> just unsure of what these characters mean https://github.com/c4software/pi-as-keyboard/blob/master/test.sh
[7:21] <shauno> even more off-topic than that :) (I'm using a micro from the late 70s. that's why I care about the missing gap between mbr & the partition. there's very little of the drive I can actually address, so having a whole meg of it missing is yuck)
[7:21] <red9> Alternativly.. dd if=/dev/sddisk | bzip -9z > emptydisk.img.bz9
[7:22] <red9> disks should just serve blocks and don't mess with what's written.
[7:22] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, it sounds like you should probably use an FPGA as glue logic to interface with the SD Card.
[7:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> Alternately, you need to try a different model/vendor of SD Card, as they don't all format the same.
[7:23] <shauno> that'd entirely ruin the fun of using an 8bit micro
[7:23] <mlelstv> that's what disks do. But there is a truth behind the obvious :)
[7:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, I'd rather not have to do any of the "figuring out" myself. I was rather hoping Linux would have solved this one by now.
[7:24] <red9> shauno, What 70s micro are you using? and how do you interface it?
[7:24] <realies> can someone help with understanding the echoed string in this? echo -ne "\x00\x00\x00\x17\x00\x00\x00\x00" > /dev/hidg0
[7:24] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, not necessarily, so long as you keep the FPGA small, dumb, and only handling the oddball SD Card stuff. If it does nothing but address redirection, then you can keep the fun stuff on the micro.
[7:24] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, FAT is designed to rarely being figured out. It sucks.
[7:24] <tnewman> are any of yall running / off of usb?
[7:25] <shauno> using a z80, and interfacing pretty much directly (which is why it's using CF, most of them will respond to ATA commands)
[7:25] <Tenacious-Techhu> realies, the string is writing character values using hex.
[7:25] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, I agree, but it has become a cross-platform standard.
[7:25] <tnewman> or everybody is microsd
[7:25] <Tenacious-Techhu> It works on Windows, OS X, and Linux.
[7:25] <Tenacious-Techhu> Therefore, it is the most suitable format for flash media, like thumb drives and SD cards.
[7:26] * CoJaBo (~aztec@unaffiliated/cojabo) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[7:26] * f1y (~f1y@archserver/trusteduser/fakeroot) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:27] <Tenacious-Techhu> I have no doubt that the SD Alliance would happily switch to something more modern, if there were such a cross-platform standard available.
[7:27] <Tenacious-Techhu> Frankly, it may well happen that the SD Alliance INVENTS something expressly for that purpose.
[7:27] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, Try google mformat + FAT + sdcard
[7:27] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, that outputs ^@^@^@^W^@^@^@^@ :|
[7:28] <red9> perl -e 'print "\x00\x00\x00\x17\x00\x00\x00\x00";' | file -
[7:28] <shauno> that's correct. it's not trying to output readable text. it's trying to write a very specific value to /dev/hidg0
[7:29] <red9> what is hidg?
[7:29] * realies is trying to understand how to convert readable text to character values in hex
[7:29] <realies> red9 https://github.com/c4software/pi-as-keyboard/blob/master/enable_hid.sh
[7:30] <shauno> red9, they're trying to use the g_hid device to emulate a usb hid (keyboard). so I assume hidg0 is something very related
[7:30] <mlelstv> this is not text but a HID event, like a keypress
[7:30] <realies> mlelstv, any tips on converting those back and forth? trying to make a keyboard over the network
[7:31] <red9> realies, This does the job: cat /etc/resolv.conf | perl -ne 's/([^:\t\w =\$()\[\]{};\/,;."\-~\\\x23])/sprintf("\\x%02X",ord($1))/gse; print;'
[7:31] <realies> o.O
[7:32] <red9> See Python sucks, Perl rules :p ;-)
[7:33] <shauno> it'd be nice if test.sh told you what result you're expecting. but I think that's just the letter 't'?
[7:34] <shauno> (I'm looking at the table starting on page 53 of http://www.usb.org/developers/hidpage/Hut1_12v2.pdf - I cannot promise this document will be good for your sanity)
[7:34] <realies> it's gonna be an interesting journey making a pi w into a ipkvm
[7:34] <caoliver> What's this perl -ne <linenoise>? ;)
[7:34] <red9> shauno, I'll guess you have a CP/M Z80 which have a P-ATA interface in which the CF-card is attached to?
[7:34] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, that seems more like an improvised solution than a "this tool will handle it all for you" job.
[7:35] <red9> caoliver, secretsauce from bastard vendor under NDA ;)
[7:35] <shauno> red9, no ATA interface. the card is straight on the bus, plus a 74'138 for address decoding
[7:35] <red9> realies, The hard part is getting VGA or DVI into the Raspberry..
[7:36] <Tenacious-Techhu> I don't think anyone answered my question about journaling and RAID write-holes...
[7:36] <red9> shauno, But the OS have some idea about how to interface with a P-ATA device right?
[7:36] <realies> red9, that's easy for me
[7:36] <red9> ie drivers from the 70s.
[7:36] <realies> and it will have to be hdmi...
[7:37] <realies> the machine im using doesn't have analog outputs
[7:37] <red9> realies, how?
[7:37] <realies> hdmi2csi bridge
[7:37] <shauno> yeah I have a cbios for cp/m that handles that. I'm trying to write code that runs before the OS
[7:37] <red9> realies, where did you get that?
[7:37] <realies> https://auvidea.com/b101-hdmi-to-csi-2-bridge-15-pin-fpc/
[7:38] <realies> it's stupid expensive for what it is though
[7:38] <realies> a 5 eur chip on a board
[7:38] <mlelstv> https://github.com/crmulliner/hidemulation/blob/master/string2hid.c
[7:38] <shauno> in a nutshell, my current rom just reads the first .. 12? 14? sectors from disk into ram, shoves the pointer into the right place et voila, you're running cp/m. I'm trying to write a new rom that uses a fat16 partition at the start of the disk, and loads same from files
[7:39] <realies> mlelstv, useful!
[7:39] <realies> thank you sir
[7:39] <red9> realies, interesting.
[7:39] <realies> very
[7:40] * davr0s (~textual@host81-155-65-221.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[7:40] <realies> i just wish it was a tenner, not 70 eur
[7:40] <shauno> basically trying to make my z80 boot more like a pi does, as nuts as that sounds. plan is for it to be able to load iHex files as well, instead of being hardcoded to booting cp/m
[7:41] <red9> realies, Can the USB HID driver be used as a virtual USB disk? and how fast?
[7:41] * snowkidind (~textual@216.15.40.124) Quit (Quit: See Ya Later Alligator!)
[7:42] <mlelstv> HID is human interface device, i.e. mouse, keyboard, knobs, controls, etc..
[7:42] <shauno> there's a different driver for that, g_storage
[7:42] <mlelstv> isn't there a mass storage gadget driver too?
[7:43] <red9> realies, Which RPi have you tried and had it succeed with?
[7:44] <realies> red9, have not tried anything yet, just got locked out of my server today so i started digging solutions to prevent this situation in the future... :)
[7:44] <shauno> there's a good handful of usb-gadget drivers; find /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/ -name g_*
[7:44] <Tenacious-Techhu> Anyone have a Pi 3 and an SD card, just waiting to try out a distribution?
[7:45] <red9> If it's possible to (ab)use the RPi USB port in device mode to emulate USB keyboard. USB memory should be an easy conversion. Just remains to know speed and if it's device mode or OTG used. Suprised the RPi supports this at all. Instead of making it necessary to go bitbang.
[7:45] <shauno> (g_cdc is a composite device, which does ethernet+serial, the rest I think are obvious-ish)
[7:47] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[7:47] <shauno> I don't think this is actually much to do with the pi,it's just linux's usb stack. all the pi has to do is not have a usb hub in the way, so you're interacting with the raw device
[7:47] <red9> Is g_cdc using USB devices or pretending it is one?
[7:47] <mlelstv> pretending
[7:47] <shauno> it's pretending it is one, the same as the rest of the usb-gadget drivers
[7:48] <red9> Is it limited to USB 1.5 Mbit/s 12 Mbit/s or 480 Mbit/s in pretend mode?
[7:48] <red9> shauno, The hardware has to support it too.
[7:48] <shauno> my standard answer to that wouldn't be considered family-friendly. I think it translates to a shrug though :)
[7:51] <red9> Families has not awaked yet. (The Oracle knows(tm)) ;-)
[7:51] * asteele (~cronoh@2601:646:102:c370:ad10:ad71:b1b5:3cdd) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[7:51] <red9> This hdmi2csi2 bridge does lack analog VGA though. And needs development on mode change.
[7:52] <realies> I guess making that RPi Zero W IPKVM stack is gonna be a lot cheaper than available products
[7:52] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@103.201.141.10) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[7:53] <realies> pi zero w + the hdmi2cs board = ~80eur?
[7:53] <realies> s/cs/csi
[7:53] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@103.248.86.222) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:53] <realies> then another ten maybe for enclosure and a micro usb to usb cable
[7:53] * H__ (~H__Freeno@unaffiliated/h/x-9670680) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[7:54] <realies> only thing is that... it's gonna be wireless
[7:54] <realies> which is a bummer as you can't really put ethernet and pretend to be an input device in the same time
[7:55] * H__ (~H__Freeno@unaffiliated/h/x-9670680) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:55] <red9> 60 US$ to make VGA -> HDMI.
[7:55] * mamed (5569c5ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.105.197.234) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:56] <shauno> depends how determined you are. eg https://hackaday.com/2015/12/06/pi-zero-ethernet-the-hard-way/
[7:56] <mamed> hello guys. can i join my raspberry pi(rasbian) to windows active directory?
[7:56] <shauno> (although if I was going to go that route, I'd probably offload the usb-hid to the cheapest avr capable instead)
[7:56] <realies> shauno, yeah i saw hats
[7:56] <realies> avr?
[7:57] <shauno> the microcontrollers most famous for being the brain in the arduino
[7:57] <red9> shauno, why? dedicated usb hardware should handle it efficiently.
[7:57] <realies> and control via gpio?
[7:57] <shauno> red9, I mean specifically if they want a usb-hid and ethernet. a dollar for a microcontroller to run the hid from, would be cheaper than recreating ethernet
[7:57] <red9> hdmi2csi2 + USB device mode (kbd+storage) => solved (tm) (R) etc.
[7:57] * asteele (~cronoh@2601:646:102:c370:5054:80f7:34b1:2965) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:58] <realies> but you have no ethernet
[7:58] <red9> shauno, of course
[7:58] <realies> making something that's supposed to be reliable work on wireless is not that reliable :T
[7:58] <shauno> I'm not sure you can run g_storage and g_hid at the same time, either (although if you have network, there's many other ways to skin storage)
[7:59] <shauno> there is/was a g_multi that tried to do that, but I don't see it on my zero, so no idea what the status with that is
[8:00] <red9> shauno, Another way is to make the Pi write to USB storage, then go into kbd-mode-emulation and let the KVM'd computer have access to both. => problem solved (i hope)
[8:00] * mawnkey (~quassel@c-73-203-214-241.hsd1.ms.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[8:00] <shauno> (with g_multi you're emulating a usb hub in usb-gadget, as I understand it at least. at which point I start to feel sorry for the poor usb stack)
[8:01] <realies> wait, what?
[8:01] <realies> pretend to be a hub via a single usb?
[8:01] <red9> How would the USB host know? ;)
[8:01] <realies> sure
[8:02] <shauno> I'm not sure. all I got is https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/usb/gadget_multi.txt
[8:02] <shauno> (which mentions the host needs drivers to match, so I may be off-piste with the hub bit?)
[8:02] <red9> "I am USB, I am many, I suffer from split device disorder" ;-)
[8:03] <shauno> considering usb was meant to be a serial port on steroids, this is all way off into voodoo territory for me
[8:03] <red9> How is this hdmi2csi2 bridge configured?
[8:03] <red9> shauno, USB was meant to replace all parallell/rs232/ps2 kludges.
[8:03] <realies> assuming u cant use gpio to emulate hid or add more usbs via it?
[8:04] <red9> But it ended up being a Intel kludge instead with single ended, polling, halfduplex crap.
[8:04] <realies> red9, no configuration needed
[8:05] <Tenacious-Techhu> Anyone want to try the Arm Fedora 27 LXQt Spin on their Pi 3 for me?
[8:05] <realies> also assuming there's no way to pretend to be something on a pi3 because of the hub
[8:05] <shauno> right, the pi3 can't do this specifically because the hub's there
[8:06] <Tenacious-Techhu> I miss Firewire.
[8:06] <shauno> (and the ethernet is on the usb hub, so if you get creative and wire around it, you lose the one thing you came for)
[8:06] <Tenacious-Techhu> Firewire did not suck like USB.
[8:06] * akar (~user@120.188.38.105) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:07] * BOKALDO (~BOKALDO@81.198.16.184) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:07] <realies> both suck imo
[8:07] <realies> https://www.adafruit.com/product/3374
[8:07] <realies> and all of those are discontinued :(
[8:07] <red9> realies, sure but if you want to process a incoing 720x480 mode instead?
[8:08] <realies> it has to be a resolution compatible with the h264 encoder
[8:08] <realies> if it is, it automagically works
[8:08] <realies> assuming the toshiba bridge chip does all the magic
[8:09] * asteele_ (~cronoh@2601:646:102:c370:3d30:580:fa8e:bc3f) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:09] <red9> h264 encoder compability not needed. A picture every second is alright.
[8:09] <red9> raw one that is.
[8:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> realies, on what basis do you say that Firewire sucked?
[8:11] * mawnkey (~quassel@c-73-203-214-241.hsd1.ms.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:11] <red9> As for the price of the hdmi2csi2 bridge. The circuit board is multilayer with high speed signals and decoupling issues. So it's going to cost more than $10.
[8:11] * asteele (~cronoh@2601:646:102:c370:5054:80f7:34b1:2965) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[8:12] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, He probably didn't have a fire extinguisher ;)
[8:13] <realies> red9, afaik the csi port goes to the gpu of broadcom chip
[8:13] * rscata (~cata@5.2.202.145) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:13] <realies> you gotta make some custom software to reconstruct that from raw i guess
[8:13] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, i have no reasonable argument
[8:14] <realies> red9, even more than 10 eur?
[8:14] * fredp (~fredp@unaffiliated/fredp) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:14] <red9> maybe 20 eur.
[8:15] <red9> top 30 eur.
[8:15] <red9> Just look for prices of a say.. 4-6 layer PCB with fine tracks. Add BGA assembly.
[8:16] <realies> that's a lot more layers than i expected
[8:16] * realies has no experience or knowledge of multilayered pcbs
[8:16] <shauno> firewire was fun. it let me do stupid stuff like https://i.imgur.com/kYc9Z8Ol.jpg
[8:17] <realies> access the same drive from two systems?
[8:17] <Tenacious-Techhu> realies, for your edification... Firewire supports genuine interrupts, isochronous transfer, and can even transfer data from one device to another without intervention from the main CPU. It's WAY better than USB.
[8:17] <shauno> one of the laptops thinks it's a harddrive, the actual harddrive was just daisy-chaining
[8:18] * ravustaja (~ravustaja@178-55-5-169.bb.dnainternet.fi) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[8:19] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, thanks for that. sounds cool
[8:19] <red9> It is cool.
[8:20] <red9> Perhaps it should be named CoolWire ;-)
[8:20] <Tenacious-Techhu> Hah!
[8:20] <red9> Maybe ThunderBolt can do the same tricks?
[8:20] <realies> i would think so
[8:20] <shauno> firewire was fine, it was just expensive to implement
[8:20] <realies> people put gpus on that
[8:20] <red9> (USB = Universally Sucky Blaha .. from Intel)
[8:21] <shauno> Thunderbolt is also from intel :)
[8:21] <realies> and apple afaik
[8:21] * nshire (~nealshire@unaffiliated/nealshire) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[8:21] * halc (~shaptic@unaffiliated/shaptic) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:22] <halc> hi everyone
[8:23] <red9> Hmm.. RPi with Thunderbolt..... ;)
[8:23] <halc> how do you guys manage pi clusters effectively?
[8:23] <halc> I'm considering investing in a "charging hub" like this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HG8C4MA
[8:23] * TheL0singEdge (~TheL0sing@unaffiliated/thel0singedge) Quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client sucks ass and will bring great shame to your family.)
[8:24] <halc> but then I'd _also_ need powered usb hubs for things like external drives
[8:24] <halc> curious to see what solutions others have come up with :)
[8:24] * High_Priest (~hp@unaffiliated/high-priest/x-8117523) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:24] <red9> Network boot + Bus bars?
[8:24] <shauno> those charging hubs rarely look like a good idea to me
[8:25] <halc> I really don't like having a separate power-block for every pi
[8:25] <red9> ok here we go again. For me power via USB looks like glitch waiting to happen.. :p
[8:25] <shauno> that one's a good example of why, but it's far from alone. it will not give you the 2.1A the pi recommends on all ports, at the same time
[8:25] <Tenacious-Techhu> If Raspberry Pis had Thunderbolt, you could very easily have a supercomputing cluster.
[8:25] <halc> shauno, the one I linked has 4 2.4A ports
[8:25] <halc> (simultaneous, up to 10A total output)
[8:25] <shauno> right. the other four are useless for this topic
[8:26] * High_Priest (~hp@unaffiliated/high-priest/x-8117523) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[8:26] <halc> sure, but not completely useless! could be used for other things, like charging phones or my bluetooth adapter
[8:26] <halc> red9, what's a bus bar?
[8:26] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, prolly the thunderbolt chip costs x10 the price of the broadcom soc
[8:26] <Tenacious-Techhu> halc, a "bus bar" is just a big fat conductor.
[8:27] <red9> Get a proper powersupply 4A x number of units. Wire it to solid bus bars. Screw USB connections from those bus bars.
[8:27] <Tenacious-Techhu> realies, very true.
[8:27] <Tenacious-Techhu> Of course, you could leave off the Ethernet and the HDMI.
[8:27] <halc> seems shady and way too much effort
[8:27] <shauno> charging a phone would be iffy. then your 2.4A ports are actually 2.25A, else you go past the 10A total
[8:27] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, you can never have too much :T
[8:27] <red9> The Pi Ethernet and sleep power is what sucks really.
[8:28] <halc> I guess that's true shauno
[8:28] <halc> but the pi doesn't even need 2.4a in typical usage
[8:28] <Tenacious-Techhu> halc, it's only as shady as you screw it up; so, very shady for people who only just learned what bus bars are, but not shady for people who build custom power supplies for a living.
[8:28] <halc> Tenacious-Techhu, precisely heh
[8:28] <mlelstv> the pi ethernet matches the rest of it, so it's good.
[8:28] <shauno> it shouldn't, no, depending on what else is connected. I just wish they'd put a power supply in them that was rated for the job
[8:29] <halc> yeah these will be purely headless + ethernet
[8:29] <halc> hmmm
[8:29] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'd really like to see a barrel jack on the Raspberry Pi, myself.
[8:29] * divadsn (~divadsn@vweb.codebucket.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[8:29] <Tenacious-Techhu> Also, does the Raspberry Pi do its own power regulation, or does it rely on the supply for that?
[8:29] <red9> Regarding power usage of the Pi. The recommendation seems to be 4 A per unit. But if there's more than one sharing power. How many amps does it need then? 8 A ?
[8:30] * t0aster0ven (~iaeofjgsk@gateway/tor-sasl/iaeofjgskjb) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[8:30] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, it has some regulator on the usb port
[8:30] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, agreed.
[8:30] <realies> and yeah, i've ruined a pi by accidentally pulling the power plug once
[8:30] <shauno> I think it just has a polyfuse on the usb?
[8:30] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, RPi2 does linear reg from 5V. The RPi3 does SMPS.
[8:30] <realies> not sure what it is, but i remember there is something there
[8:30] * t0aster0ven (~iaeofjgsk@gateway/tor-sasl/iaeofjgskjb) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:31] <halc> red9, 4A per unit?! can USB even push that?
[8:31] <realies> not by the standart, no
[8:31] <shauno> there's more after that to bring down 3.3 & 1.8v for the cpucore, but the 5v line pretty much mirrors the input
[8:31] <mlelstv> USB is 0.5A per port maximum
[8:31] <realies> but people do all crazy stuff
[8:31] * mschorm (~mschorm@ip-78-102-201-117.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[8:31] <halc> smh
[8:32] <Tenacious-Techhu> Has there been any talk about Pis after Broadcom?
[8:32] <mlelstv> red9, what does the rpi2 v1.2 do?
[8:32] <Tenacious-Techhu> Are there any Broadcom chips left to upgrade to for a Pi 4?
[8:32] <halc> anyone have a link on-hand to a 2+ port usb that can push 2A per-port simultaneously? before I do some sleuthing myself
[8:33] <shauno> the usb charging spec allows 2100mA per port (the pi does no negotiation at all, so should technically be a 100mA device lol)
[8:34] <realies> yeah, is there any news around pi4?
[8:34] <shauno> Tenacious-Techhu, not that I know of (well, not in this product family). of course the foundation will hear before we do
[8:35] <shauno> but I do find it interesting that the other major user of this SoC have gone wandering off to a completely different chipset
[8:35] * realies hopes that pi4 has decent audio finally
[8:36] <realies> i was so sad when cirrus logic discontinued their audio card
[8:36] <realies> and in fact still am
[8:36] <shauno> I still use the hifiberry ones
[8:36] <realies> no inputs
[8:36] <halc> SSDs need less power than HDDs, right?
[8:36] <realies> the cirrus logic one had digital and analog inputs up to 192khz/24bit
[8:36] <halc> hmmm.... maybe an SSD can work just off of the Pi's USB port
[8:37] <realies> multiple of them... and a dsp
[8:37] <realies> with eqs, compressors and all kind of routing options
[8:37] <red9> Bus bar photo: https://d1k5w7mbrh6vq5.cloudfront.net/images/cache/39/25/88/39258810c13d742542a88567428b6624.jpg
[8:37] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'd like something that handles video and temperature better.
[8:37] <realies> what's wrong with video handling?
[8:38] <realies> you want h265?
[8:38] <shauno> I just want usb3. that'd give us gigabit ethernet.
[8:39] * Drzacek (~Drzacek@b941c009.business.dg-w.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:39] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:39] <realies> is there no way to have direct gigabit interface from the chip or that's not how it works?
[8:40] <halc> so how do hubs like "choose" where the power goes? if I have 5 pis on a 10A hub, so 2A/each, but one suddenly starts pushing 1080p video, does it for sure just soak up power from the others?
[8:40] <red9> I'd rather have gigabit Ethernet without USB in the way :p
[8:40] <realies> halc, physics i would think
[8:40] <halc> yeah but that was years ago
[8:40] <realies> red9, that's what i mean
[8:40] <shauno> usually your pi aren't actually using 2A all the time.
[8:40] <halc> I ain't digging up those notes
[8:41] <halc> shauno, right but assume a perfect scenario. does one just randomly lose .4 if another needs 2.4?
[8:41] <shauno> but typically either when you try to pull more current than the power supply can provide, it either hopefully shuts off, probably lags voltage, or possibly makes bad smelly noises
[8:41] <realies> it's strange that they recommend 2.1A
[8:41] <realies> having a 4xUSB hub, gpio, ethernet, etc
[8:41] <red9> When too much current is used the PSU will shut down. So doing the electrical math pays.
[8:42] * t0aster0ven (~iaeofjgsk@gateway/tor-sasl/iaeofjgskjb) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[8:42] <realies> considering the usb spec is for .5A per device
[8:42] * High_Priest (~hp@unaffiliated/high-priest/x-8117523) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:42] <halc> that's definitely not a viable solution, then
[8:42] * halc searches for 20A hubs
[8:42] <mlelstv> red9, the problem isn't USB-in-the-way but that particular USB controller in the way :)
[8:42] <realies> so someone from hardware is suggesting other arm SBCs to do the ipkvm thing...
[8:42] <red9> The USB spec is a mess and then it's abused by people looking for shortcuts. It will likely go the way of P-ATA which was a similar *mess*.
[8:43] <shauno> well, this bit is common to any power supply. if you try to draw more than you can provide, you're in trouble. and what form of trouble mostly just depends on how much you paid
[8:44] * dreamon (~dreamon@unaffiliated/dreamon) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[8:44] <red9> Most supplies are SMPS by now. And if they are overused they simple say f#ck this and shuts down.
[8:44] <mlelstv> P-ATA is nice and sweet for those who are satisfied with a PIO interface made of 1 TTL chip and a PAL.
[8:45] <red9> SCSI please.. ;)
[8:45] <mlelstv> way too complex :)
[8:45] <shauno> realies, they're a fair possibility they're right. the trade-off there is the size of the community supporting it (eg, the pre-written stuff you've already found for hid emulation)
[8:45] * mossman93 (~mossman93@unaffiliated/mossman93) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[8:45] <mlelstv> and slow...
[8:45] <halc> hm, might snag this then https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00N28KRUU/
[8:45] <halc> I only have 3 pis, so I could use one for my bt adapter and another to spare
[8:45] * mossman93 (~mossman93@unaffiliated/mossman93) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:46] * High_Priest (~hp@unaffiliated/high-priest/x-8117523) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[8:46] <shauno> the pi is basically a mediocre sbc with a fantastic ecosystem around it
[8:46] <mlelstv> what do you want a 50 Watt Charger for?
[8:46] <realies> shauno, ive dropped an email to the pijack guys that make the ethernet hat for the zero and asked if it would be available again
[8:46] <halc> mlelstv, 3 pis + more! need muh amperage
[8:47] <red9> realies, Ask what chip they used. Then make a clone..
[8:47] <mlelstv> https://oroboro.com/compact-16-node-raspberry-pi-cluster/
[8:47] <mlelstv> have a look on the power distribution used :)
[8:48] <halc> nice! thanks for the link :)
[8:48] <shauno> I'd be tempted to look at an ATX power supply
[8:48] <Tenacious-Techhu> realies, my Pi 3 tends to heat up when running 1080p video from flash.
[8:48] <halc> oh wow that's too DIY for me
[8:49] * t0aster0ven (~iaeofjgsk@gateway/tor-sasl/iaeofjgskjb) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:49] <shauno> proably not for 3 pi, but for a whole cluster? the standby voltage can probably run a master node, and you've got a few hundred watts waiting for you on the real 5v line
[8:49] <mlelstv> all but the bitscope stuff is DIY :)
[8:49] <realies> Tenacious-Techhu, what do you mean from flash?
[8:49] <halc> yeah I don't see getting more than 5 of these lil guys -- I just have 3 currently because I bought them as they released
[8:50] <halc> so full-on cluster solutions are pretty overkill for me
[8:50] <realies> i've worked on projects that playback and capture 1080p video 24/7
[8:50] <shauno> well that's hardly a cluster, is it! that's less bramble and more .. my drawer lol
[8:50] * pavlushka (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:50] <halc> yes :) I'm just trying to prettify it!
[8:51] <halc> I _hate_ having 3 separate USB power block thingies
[8:51] <halc> it feels so wasteful and takes up a buttload of space on my power strips
[8:51] <realies> red9, that's overly optimistic, i cant make a clone :)
[8:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> realies, web page flash video.
[8:51] <realies> flash is dead
[8:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> Not as dead as I had hoped.
[8:52] <realies> if the browser supports accelerated h264 decoding there'd be no problem
[8:52] <shauno> you just need to keep stabbing it, it'll go eventually
[8:52] <mlelstv> https://www.anker.com/products/variant/PowerPort-10-Ports/A2133111
[8:52] <Tenacious-Techhu> Crunchyroll still uses Flash, I think.
[8:52] <realies> :S
[8:52] <mlelstv> that's 60W USB power
[8:52] <red9> https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/43285/raspberry-pi-3-vs-pi-2-power-consumption-and-heat-dissipation
[8:53] <red9> Says Pi3 = 0.750 A max
[8:53] <halc> ooh nice mlelstv
[8:53] <shauno> see, there's my beef again. 10 ports, 60W. so if you wanted to use all 10, you'd get 1.2A per port
[8:53] * djsxxx_away is now known as Dave_MMP
[8:53] <red9> https://oroboro.com/compact-16-node-raspberry-pi-cluster/
[8:53] <mlelstv> 0.75A without anything connected
[8:53] <mlelstv> so good for a compute cluster.
[8:53] <realies> that's one hungry boi
[8:53] <red9> Has allocated 1.25 A/unit
[8:53] * divadsn (~divadsn@vweb.codebucket.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:54] <realies> why twice the difference compred to pi2?
[8:54] <realies> all the radio stuff?
[8:54] <shauno> the SoC itself is generally warmer too, so I don't think it's just radios
[8:54] <mlelstv> the SoC running at higher clock draws power
[8:55] <halc> duuuude https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075V1HYFS/
[8:55] <halc> neat!
[8:56] <red9> more cores..
[8:57] <mlelstv> rpi2 and rpi3 are both quad-cores
[8:57] <Tenacious-Techhu> I wouldn't buy one of those if it didn't function as a USB Hub, too.
[8:58] <halc> is that a thing? like a hub but also not a hub, selectively??
[8:58] <mlelstv> USB Hubs don't work that good as a power supply.
[8:58] <red9> I think the RPi2 had a better price/performance ratio.
[8:58] <mlelstv> they tend to stay with USB specs :)
[8:58] <mlelstv> red9, here RPI2 and RPI3 are almost same price.
[8:58] <shauno> they moved from A7 to A53 too. we still treat it as an A7, but they're quite different cores
[8:58] <mlelstv> and RPI3 is faster.. if cooled :)
[8:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> USB Hubs can have external power too.
[8:59] <red9> Some people think they need a RPi. But what they need is a desktop PC.
[8:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> They aren't inherently limited to the CPU's power.
[8:59] <red9> At least if their whish list is followed.
[9:00] <Tenacious-Techhu> And yes, there are some with charging ports, nowadays.
[9:00] <red9> With that comes thermal, power, size and cost issues.
[9:00] <mlelstv> yes, but as I said, most will limit to 0.5A per port, and even those who do not, aren't much better. I dropped the hub as power supply.
[9:00] <mlelstv> besides, I also don't need more than 4 ports on the rpi.
[9:00] <shauno> The problem with wishlists is you can't please them all. If you just pick off the stuff that's on 90% of the wishlists, you ... basically end up with the pi
[9:01] <shauno> (especially if you've already set the budget)
[9:01] <Tenacious-Techhu> Yeah, my old man is definitely going to need another desktop for his CAD work, but my mother can get by with a Pi for a while, since she's just a Real Estate Agent.
[9:02] <shauno> anyway. 8am, I'm going to bed.
[9:02] <Tenacious-Techhu> shauno, so what you're saying is, the Pi needs a PCI slot, to satisfy that extra 10%? XD
[9:02] <halc> I guess I need something like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00VDVCQ84/ but inverted amount of hub/charging ports
[9:03] <shauno> the SoC doesn't have PCI, so they'd have to find another SoC they can source under-budget at great volume
[9:03] * High_Priest (~hp@unaffiliated/high-priest/x-8117523) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:03] <Tenacious-Techhu> Yeah, but we were discussing the hypothetical Pi 4 anyway.
[9:03] <shauno> it's not just adding the slot. (also, card slots are stupidly expensive. I have no idea why)
[9:03] * akar (~user@120.188.38.105) Quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds)
[9:04] <Tenacious-Techhu> I dunno, I saw an Arduino a while back with card slots on it; they can't be that much.
[9:04] <mlelstv> the hypothetical Pi 4 would need a different GPU first but which is as supported.
[9:04] <Tenacious-Techhu> Then again, the dev behind that one was an idiot.
[9:05] <shauno> a different gpu would break all kinds of compatibility, which they've been keen to cling on to so far
[9:05] <mlelstv> that is the problem :)
[9:05] <shauno> when I said the pi is basically a mediocre sbc with a fantastic ecosystem, this is the trap. If you deviate too much you cut off a chunk of that ecosystem
[9:06] <shauno> then you're just another allwinner board
[9:06] <mlelstv> which at least have faster CPUs :)
[9:06] <Tenacious-Techhu> Well yes, but Linux on Arm is pretty mainstream now; so you just have to fit within that mainstream.
[9:07] * KE0OHD (~Goldschla@24-111-126-57-dynamic.midco.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
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[9:08] <shauno> I mean, I still think it's a huge win that you can boot the same raspbian image on 3 generations of pi. that's the kinda thing you're looking at ditching when you go that route
[9:08] * John882 (~John882@185.140.114.52) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> What about the chipset that was last used in the Ouya?
[9:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> After three generations, I think a little backwards compatibility is inevitable.\
[9:09] <Tenacious-Techhu> Also, Fedora have openly stated that they refuse to support Arm 6, that the Raspberry Pi Ones were based on.
[9:09] <shauno> (this is why I find it terribly interesting that the latest roku models have stopped using this chipset family. I'd dying to know why. But it could be as dull as they wanted 4k in time for christmas)
[9:09] <Tenacious-Techhu> So there's probably good reason to dump those.
[9:09] * Azlux (~Azlux@unaffiliated/azlux) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[9:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> The Rokus use the same chipset as the Pi?
[9:10] * Azlux (~Azlux@unaffiliated/azlux) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:10] <shauno> They did, the 4k ones don't
[9:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> They probably need more performance to compete with users just buying Pis. :P
[9:11] <shauno> they probably just wanted h265 + 4k, else they lose against their natural competitors
[9:11] <shauno> https://wikidevi.com/wiki/Roku
[9:12] <shauno> but this is what the pi's SoC was designed for. that's why it's more GPU than it is cpu
[9:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> So, would the chipset they used in the Ouya be a reasonable step forward for a Raspberry Pi 4?
[9:13] <shauno> or why the pi has video codecs baked in, etc
[9:16] * mujjingun (uid228218@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qaichzfnfvxnxjns) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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[9:19] <Tenacious-Techhu> Nah, the Tegra 3 is only 32 bit...
[9:20] * Armand (~armand@office.prgn.misp.co.uk) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> Looks like the whole Tegra line gets too expensive before it gets 64 bit.
[9:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> AFK, off to bed...
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[12:40] <rbasak> shiftplusone: o/
[12:41] <shiftplusone> hey
[12:41] <rbasak> shiftplusone: try "getent hosts hostname.local" as a minimal test.
[12:41] <rbasak> I think avahi has some debugging commands too in order to list what hosts it sees
[12:41] <shiftplusone> nothing
[12:41] <shiftplusone> there's avahi-browse
[12:42] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-A0C4-D973-A81-A352.dyn6.twc.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[12:42] * TheL0singEdge (~TheL0sing@unaffiliated/thel0singedge) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:42] <shiftplusone> which shows the ssh/sftp services, but when I ping the hostname.local or try to communicate with it any other way, I get nothing
[12:42] <shiftplusone> enp0s20u4u3u1i2 IPv6 extzero SSH Remote Terminal local
[12:43] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-A0C4-D973-A81-A352.dyn6.twc.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:43] * CoJaBo (~aztec@unaffiliated/cojabo) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:43] <shiftplusone> ping: unknown host extzero.local
[12:45] * wiiguy (~fake@unaffiliated/wiiguy) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[12:46] * mike_t (~mike@pluto.dd.vaz.ru) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[12:46] <rbasak> I remember using mDNS on the local link before. It just worked for me.
[12:47] <rbasak> I'm looking for a way to ask avahi what names it is publishing and on which interfaces
[12:49] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-A0C4-D973-A81-A352.dyn6.twc.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[13:00] * jdawgaz (~Jerry@ip70-176-27-239.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit (Client Quit)
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[13:04] <rbasak> shiftplusone: what does "avahi-browse -atr" say, both on the host and on the Pi?
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[13:05] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-A0C4-D973-A81-A352.dyn6.twc.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:06] * exotime (~exotime@gateway/tor-sasl/exotime) has joined #raspberrypi
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[13:07] <shiftplusone> on PC: http://paste.debian.net/1000840/
[13:08] <shiftplusone> don't have avahi-browse on the pi
[13:08] <rbasak> OK
[13:08] <rbasak> It looks like it's picked it up, assuming the pi is "extzero"?
[13:09] <rbasak> What does "avahi-resolve -n extzero.local" say?
[13:10] * sdothum (~znc@108.63.119.33) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:11] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-A0C4-D973-A81-A352.dyn6.twc.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[13:11] <shiftplusone> extzero.local fe80::1
[13:12] <rbasak> OK so the lookup is working in principle :)
[13:12] * exotime (~exotime@gateway/tor-sasl/exotime) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:12] <rbasak> What does "getent hosts extzero.local" say?
[13:12] <shiftplusone> nothing
[13:12] * exotime (~exotime@gateway/tor-sasl/exotime) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:12] <shiftplusone> but works fine for other things resolved by avahi
[13:13] <rbasak> I wonder if it's excluding that one for some reason.
[13:14] <shiftplusone> avahi-daemon.conf: http://paste.debian.net/1000842/
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[13:15] * mossman93 (~mossman93@unaffiliated/mossman93) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[13:16] <shiftplusone> Not any different from the conf on my pc
[13:16] * davr0s (~textual@host81-155-65-221.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[13:17] <rbasak> What OS and version on your host?
[13:18] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@2402:3a80:918:354e:20d3:5563:b6b3:e287) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[13:19] <shiftplusone> Mint based on Ubuntu Xenial
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[13:23] <rbasak> I think Avahi is working fine.
[13:23] <rbasak> There may be some reason why libnss-mdns isn't giving you back the IP. I'm not sure what that could be.
[13:23] * m_t (~m_t@93.218.38.151) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:23] <rbasak> I'd need to dig into the source. I don't see anything obvious at a quick glance.
[13:23] * v01d4lph4 (~silent_fr@42.111.58.231) Quit (Read error: No route to host)
[13:24] <rbasak> An alternative way of fixing this might be to adjust gpiozero to use the avahi Python module (if it's available) to find a default.
[13:24] <rbasak> It'd be nice if the user didn't have to look up an IP address :)
[13:25] <shiftplusone> If you want to give it a go: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ftihywup4xzw76g/gpioexpander.zip?dl=1
[13:25] <shiftplusone> unzip, sudo rpiboot -d gpioexpander.zip
[13:25] <shiftplusone> unzip, sudo rpiboot -d output
[13:25] <shiftplusone> *
[13:25] <rbasak> I need some hardware first :-/
[13:25] <shiftplusone> ah, thought you were already using usbbootgui
[13:26] <rbasak> No, sorry. I only have some very old Pis lying around.
[13:26] <shiftplusone> any model A?
[13:26] <shiftplusone> or compute module
[13:27] <rbasak> It's been a while. Is there a page of images to identify them please?
[13:27] <rbasak> I forget which model is which.
[13:28] <rbasak> I've got one Pi running right here but I think it's one of the first ones.
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[13:28] <rbasak> I do have one of the initial cut down ones but I'm not sure where it might be right now :(
[13:28] <gordonDrogon> I have a couple of A's and A+'s lying about - one day I might find a use for them...
[13:28] <rbasak> Anyway I should get back to work for now.
[13:28] <rbasak> I might take a look the next time I see Ben or Dave.
[13:29] <gordonDrogon> my grand plan was to use the A+s as oven controllers, then the zero came out ...
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[13:31] <shiftplusone> rbasak: thanks for the help so far.
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[13:33] <rbasak> You're welcome! Sorry it hasn't worked out yet :-/
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[13:34] <gordonDrogon> what is it you're trying to achieve?
[13:34] <shiftplusone> rbasak: gpioexpander should work on any pi released so far with a single USB port.
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[13:34] <shiftplusone> gordonDrogon: rbasak was suggesting that gpioexpander supports avahi
[13:35] <gordonDrogon> I guess I misses something there - never heard of 'gpioexpander' ..
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[13:35] <shiftplusone> so instead of using PIGPIO_ADDR=fe80::1%usb0 it would be PIGPIO_ADDR=extzero.local
[13:35] <BurtyB> the version I downloaded didn't have avahi compiled in I had to add it
[13:36] <shiftplusone> gordonDrogon: gpioexpander a bit of magic that lets you use the gpio pins on a pi zero without it having any sd card in it
[13:36] <shiftplusone> gordonDrogon: you plug a pi zero in. A dialog comes up asking you what you want to do with it and one of the options is gpio expander
[13:37] <shiftplusone> BurtyB: did you get it working?
[13:37] <rbasak> shiftplusone: thanks. I think I have one of those, but not right here. If I spot it, I'll give it a go :)
[13:37] <gordonDrogon> https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/gpio-expander/
[13:37] <shiftplusone> that's the one
[13:37] <BurtyB> shiftplusone, not yet I need to get back to it
[13:38] <gordonDrogon> I ought to document wiringPiD .. but you need the Pi booted and on the 'net for that.
[13:38] <shiftplusone> BurtyB: I've enabled all the avahi options in buildroot, but that's about it. It looks like it should be working, but nope.
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[13:40] <shiftplusone> pigpiod has probably got too much momentum now for people to switch to wiringpid now
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[13:40] <gordonDrogon> apart from my clients that is ..
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[14:00] <Mets> Hey there! I was wondering if there was a solution for a Android controlled multimedia center using a raspberry pi. I would like to have the pi connected to a TV and a external drive, so someone could access the files in the library from their android device and play them on the TV without much hassle
[14:01] <gordonDrogon> kodi on the Pi and Yatse on the android.
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[14:02] <gordonDrogon> however kodi works just as well with the TV remote control via the hdmi/CEC interface.
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[14:05] <Mets> Ill look into it, thanks!
[14:06] <Mets> I wanted to make sure the option existed before buying one for christmas
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[15:11] <samsungtv> so what are some cool things to try to ttyl into with raspberry pi?
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[15:17] <gordonDrogon> to try to what?
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[15:22] <yang> Hello, (the classic question) Is there any ETA, when the RPI 4 comes out ?
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[15:23] <leftyfb> yang: they never give us that information
[15:23] <shiftplusone> yang: Raspberry Pi Foundation doesn't announce release dates (classic answer).
[15:23] <yang> ok
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[15:34] <dan2wik> releasing dates gives you a deadline.
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[15:39] <shiftplusone> There are still internal schedules and deadlines of course
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[15:43] <GeekOfflineNL> hi
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[18:56] <dan2wik> I'm trying to work out the max baud rate on a Pi3. All my research seems to be tainted by poor data or data from previous editions of the Pi.
[18:57] <dan2wik> Does anyone have a definite answer?
[18:57] <kerio> wtf is “baud rate”
[18:57] <dan2wik> Baud rate of the serial interface.
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[19:02] <gordonDrogon> kerio, try to keep it family friendly please - including abbreviations, acronyms, etc.
[19:03] <gordonDrogon> baud is a bit of a misnomer these days, however for our purposes it's the serial bit-rate. 115200 is achievable, I think that it can go a lot faster, but you need to change the baud clock in /boot/config.txt
[19:05] <gordonDrogon> dan2wik, a quick google suggests 1Mb/sec is achievable.
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[19:09] <Rukus> gordonDrogon, I'm curious, does this have anything to do with the topic? https://github.com/hzeller/rpi-gpio-dma-demo
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[19:11] <gordonDrogon> no idea. I only use the standard kernel/hardware interfaces.
[19:11] <gordonDrogon> and I only go as high as 115200 for my own applications.
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[19:13] <dan2wik> I'm trying to connect to a serial link between 2 processors in this set top box, my logic analyzer is showing around 13000000 baud but the Pi can't seem to receive it.
[19:13] * jancoow (~jancoow@dhcp-077-251-034-091.chello.nl) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:13] <gordonDrogon> maybe the serial link isn't asynchronous?
[19:15] <dan2wik> I think you might be right.
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[19:17] <BurtyB> 13000000 sounds way to fast for a Pi uart
[19:18] <dan2wik> I think I have an extra 0 there. should be 1300000
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[19:22] <gordonDrogon> if you can store a trace in your logic analyser you might be able to work out if it's async.
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[20:06] <uriahheep> yeah 1000000 is safe though
[20:07] <uriahheep> I’m actually communicating on here via such a uart configuration
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[20:26] <iEv0lv3__> "Nice baud, hot baud, *whispers* I want your baud" -baud man fantasies
[20:27] * mine9 (~wtf_over@c-24-22-38-85.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: [IRSSI] The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill)
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[20:40] <uriahheep> what commercial was that again?
[20:40] <uriahheep> iEv0lv3__: ^
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[20:45] <iEv0lv3__> Bod Man fantasies.
[20:45] <iEv0lv3__> Bod fragrance spray
[20:45] <uriahheep> oh yeah
[20:45] <uriahheep> nice
[20:46] <iEv0lv3__> Hehe
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[21:23] <epifani8> Hi #all, I was wondering if you can help me in setting up an lvds for my rasperrypi
[21:24] * p71 (~chatzilla@71-90-117-89.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:25] <red9> epifani8, insufficient problem description.
[21:26] <epifani8> I bought an lvds (exactly this one: UDOO 15" Touch Panel Display Kit the Datasheet is available at https://www.udoo.org/docs/Hardware_&_Accessories/UDOO_LVDS_Panels.html ) I used it for a project were I was using the UDOO platform. I now switched to RasperryPi3
[21:27] <epifani8> what I want try to do is to connect this lvds to my pi3 using the hdmi connector
[21:27] <epifani8> so I need to add an adaptor to my lvds .. but I don't know which one will woork
[21:28] <epifani8> the lvdd model is: INNOLUX MODEL NO.: G156BGE SUFFIX: L01
[21:28] * iKarith (~ikarith@174.127.209.54) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:29] <epifani8> .. I need help in finding the right adaptor
[21:29] * anunnaki (~chris@unaffiliated/anunnaki) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[21:30] <red9> I suspect you need the kind of adaptor that sits in every external screen.
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[21:32] <epifani8> I guess so, there are tons on ebay. but I can't find one that list exactly my lvds model.
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[21:47] <red9> epifani8, You need one that most importantly supports your pixel resolution. Perhaps bitdepth too.
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[21:55] <Tenacious-Techhu> Does the name on the boot SD card have to be named "BOOT"?
[21:56] <Tenacious-Techhu> Is it a requirement, and is that Raspbian/Debian related distros only, or everything?
[21:58] * retrosenator (~pi@72.45.49.222) has joined #raspberrypi
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[22:05] <retrosenator> I know it's been asked, but what is the future of raspberry pi?
[22:05] <retrosenator> will there ever be a version 4 or is 3 the end?
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[22:05] <CoJaBo> Tenacious-Techhu: You can change it to anything you want
[22:06] <CoJaBo> (I think it's limited to like, 11 ASCII chars tho)
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[22:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> retrosenator, a Raspberry Pi 4 would almost certainly require a new chipset of some sort; the Broadcom chips have reached their limit.
[22:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> Figuring out WHICH chipset is a big deal, because there are backwards compatibility tradeoffs that will have to be made.
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[22:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> I suspect we'll see some Smartphone SoC family whose oldest relative has been retired, but which has growth potential for future Pis.
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[22:12] <retrosenator> so basically, any raspberry 4 would not be backwards compatible
[22:12] <retrosenator> you couldn't share the microsd card
[22:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> retrosenator, the issue is not yet so black and white.
[22:14] * anunnaki (~chris@unaffiliated/anunnaki) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:14] <Tenacious-Techhu> They're probably deciding right now what shade of grey to settle for.
[22:15] * SopaXorzTaker (~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:16] <Tenacious-Techhu> They'll probably shoot for the cheapest chipset they can find that has lots of "by default" support from the major Linux Distributions, and just continue to push Pi 1-3 + 0 upstreaming as much as possible, to keep things as compatible as possible.
[22:16] <Tenacious-Techhu> Ideally, they'll run standard Linux distros, rather than require special distros like Raspbian.
[22:17] <retrosenator> that would be niceeeeeeeeeeeee
[22:17] <Tenacious-Techhu> Yup.
[22:17] <retrosenator> sorry, sticky keyboard
[22:17] <retrosenator> There are a lot of boards to choose from also
[22:17] <Tenacious-Techhu> You should be sorry; your keyboard stuck on the wrong vowel.
[22:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> Yes, yes there are.
[22:18] <retrosenator> I'm looking at the rock 960, it is 6 core, and 4gb ram..
[22:18] <retrosenator> with raspberry I am always swapping because javascript spoiled the web
[22:18] * Damni (~Damni@host141-71-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0)
[22:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> I suspect precisely because Pi competitors are using Allwinner chips that the Pi Foundation won't.
[22:18] <retrosenator> yeah, I have an orange pi also... it works but it's buggy
[22:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> Also, not a lot of upstream support with those, though the situation is improving there.
[22:18] <retrosenator> for me, the raspberry has the most stable software
[22:19] <retrosenator> I used odroid also until I killed it... it was faster than raspberry 3
[22:19] <retrosenator> but also more bugs, but it was also 64bit
[22:19] <retrosenator> it would lock up often
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[22:19] <retrosenator> I hope whatever they choose, it is something with completely free graphics support
[22:20] <retrosenator> most of the boards seem to rely on closed drivers
[22:20] * puzzola (~puzzola@unaffiliated/puzzola) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[22:20] <Tenacious-Techhu> retrosenator, it's a hard sell for these custom chip vendors to release their drivers; I think they should too, but it's a hard argument to make to them.
[22:21] <retrosenator> the raspberry gpu is weak and the opengl driver is still buggy
[22:22] <red9> Go for SoC + FPGA?
[22:22] <retrosenator> anyway.. I don't understand what their problem is, and why they are so greedy that they can't just release the specs
[22:22] <red9> as 3D graphics in the FPGA.
[22:22] * niq84 (~niq84@3x0.eu) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:22] <retrosenator> red9: you have done that on the raspberry? opengl?
[22:22] <retrosenator> can it talk over sdio or something?
[22:23] <red9> retrosenator, The raspberry suffer from secretsauce. So RPi can't really rectify the situation.
[22:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> I would love to see some FPGA on the Pi, but I don't think it's the Raspberry Pi Foundation's target demographic.
[22:23] <Tenacious-Techhu> It would sure make SNES emulators run better, though!
[22:24] <red9> But with a FPGA one can go full open and free OpenGL. And easily jump hardware.
[22:24] <ali1234> here you go https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fleafpga-ohm-fpga-experimenter-board-arduino#/
[22:25] <retrosenator> red9: I mean.. can the fpga graphics accelerator be a hat?
[22:25] * shantorn (~W7SAK-Sha@67-5-133-199.ptld.qwest.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:25] <red9> I just want a cheap I/O controller that can run Unix. Should be possible to beat RPi considering they raised prices significantly.
[22:25] <ali1234> you will never get specs or driver code from broadcom
[22:26] <retrosenator> ali1234: then we should definately stop using their chips
[22:26] <ali1234> i agree
[22:26] <ali1234> what should we use instead?
[22:26] <retrosenator> I don't know
[22:28] <red9> There's a lot of ARM and MIPS chips on the market.
[22:28] * Encrypt (~Encrypt@2a01cb0401d17200555f53bf53cdfd3c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Quit: Quit)
[22:29] <Tenacious-Techhu> There's nothing "free" about FPGAs...
[22:30] <red9> Did the RPi-2/3 had integrated DRAM into the SoC chip?
[22:30] <Tenacious-Techhu> You're just locked in on the FPGA vendor side, rather than the SoC code side.
[22:30] <retrosenator> 2gb ram isn't enough imho
[22:31] <red9> Anyway any SoC ought to have MMU, SD-card interface, 32 MB RAM, >48 MHz clock. The rest is just about PCB wizardy and $$.
[22:31] <retrosenator> what about emmc?
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[22:32] <retrosenator> that and usb3
[22:32] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, The synthesis process is proprietary. But the usage of the binary HDL code is then unencumbered. It's not like the RPi ASIC netlist is available.. ;)
[22:33] <retrosenator> maybe the rpi4 could be completely free
[22:33] <red9> Btw, are the synthesis tools for the Lattice FPGA availble on Linux for free?
[22:33] <retrosenator> including the asic design
[22:33] <red9> retrosenator, could, won't :p ;-)
[22:34] <retrosenator> if it isn't, there are few compelling reasons to follow it
[22:34] <red9> With an FPGA as SoC one can actually get openly documented graphics.
[22:34] <retrosenator> considering the plethora of alternatives
[22:34] <retrosenator> red9: is the fpga as power efficient?
[22:35] <Tenacious-Techhu> There's an open-source toolchain for the Ice 40 FPGAs, but I haven't played with it myself; I'm waiting for a convenient installer and app package.
[22:35] <Tenacious-Techhu> FPGAs are not nearly as power efficient as proper ASICs.
[22:35] <red9> The RPi got low price (maybe not anymore) and community. Take away those and it's just like any other overpriced evaluation board.
[22:36] <retrosenator> what about working on a zero 2 instead?
[22:36] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, That open-source (reverese engineered) Lattice FPGA toolchain is not ready for regular usage.
[22:36] <retrosenator> basically keep the same rpi0, but make it lower power
[22:37] <retrosenator> right now it still is drawing about a watt which is a lot
[22:37] <Tenacious-Techhu> I never said it was, red9. XD
[22:37] <retrosenator> can they respin the broadcom chip with 16 nm process or something?
[22:37] <red9> Take the feauture set and run with it. Beat them in their own game.
[22:38] <Tenacious-Techhu> retrosenator, the Raspberry Pi foundation doesn't have access to the chip fabrication AT ALL.
[22:38] <Tenacious-Techhu> They just buy chips from Broadcom; THAT'S IT.
[22:38] <retrosenator> ah.. so it's up to broadcom
[22:38] <retrosenator> if it's even possible
[22:38] <red9> Tenacious-Techhu, Case in point. There is as of now no free FPGA toolchain. So it's just about which toolchain that has the least amount of side effects.
[22:38] <Tenacious-Techhu> So, if they want better than what Broadcom offers, they have to go somewhere else, because Broadcom doesn't care about the Raspberry Pi as a customer.
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[22:56] <Mad7Scientist> Does raspbian have gtk-1 installed?
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[23:04] <red9> Regarding graphics. There was an effort in 2006 to get open graphics interface: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Graphics_Project
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[23:11] * H4ndy is now known as h4ndy
[23:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> red9, I've seen lots of those.
[23:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> FPGAs just aren't fast enough for practical Graphics Card purposes, though.
[23:15] <CoJaBo> red9: ha, their website is even down..
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[23:20] <daynaskully> On boot i'm getting 4 flashes of green led with the 4th pausing before repeating. (...-)
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[23:29] <gordonDrogon> what did google say?
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[23:44] <Mad7Scientist> red9, a PCI-X graphics board awesome!
[23:44] * Quatroking (~Quatrokin@507098BE.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:44] <Mad7Scientist> I wanna make one with PCIe on one side flip it over for PCI-X
[23:45] <Mad7Scientist> There is already a graphics standard called VESA for 2D graphics
[23:45] <Mad7Scientist> I wonder if a Radeon 8500 could be done on FPGA
[23:47] <Tenacious-Techhu> Mad7Scientist, look up the clock frequencies of FPGAs before you consider whether or not that is a good idea.
[23:47] * shoogz (~shoogz@unaffiliated/shoogz) Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[23:48] <gordonDrogon> have a look at the propellor chip .
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[23:48] <gordonDrogon> and note that an ATmega @ 16MHz can generate a simple mono output.
[23:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> The propeller chip had so much potential that was wasted because the cores couldn't process interrupts independently.
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These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.