#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2018-03-20

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:00] <waveform> yup - at TTL level (or so it claims)
[0:00] <puff> Lartza: The middle value is what's on the card's label.
[0:00] <puff> Cool.
[0:00] <Lartza> Yeah makes sense with that spec and everything :)
[0:03] <puff> Hm, so I think that means the first 4 bytes are type, last two bytes are XOR checksum, everything in between is the tag data?
[0:04] <waveform> sounds entirely reasonable
[0:04] <waveform> oh - although I'd say the last one byte (two hex chars) is the checksum
[0:05] <waveform> (and the first 2 bytes (4 hex chars) is the type)
[0:05] * Quatroking (~Quatrokin@507098BE.static.ziggozakelijk.nl) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
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[0:10] <puff> Hm, that's weird and annoying. Trying out this pyrfid library (https://github.com/philippmeisberger/pyrfid) and it seems to work, but the values it's printing out are nothing like the values I got just reading from the serial port.
[0:13] <puff> https://paste.pound-python.org/show/5GShLSKdqkk2JdJ6Vd9T/
[0:15] * djk (~Thunderbi@pool-96-242-161-125.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[0:26] <waveform> puff, that library's for readers that obey the EM4100 protocol (according to the repo) - there's no mention of that in the RDM630 spec sheet so I'd assume it talks a different protocol
[0:26] * Singmyr (~singmyr@ Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[0:27] <waveform> hmm, although looking at https://www.pm-codeworks.de/pyrfid.html it does look ... very reminiscent of that spec sheet
[0:28] * plugwash (~plugwash@2a02:c7f:ba49:1500::2) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:29] <waveform> ah, here's the description of EM4100: http://www.priority1design.com.au/em4100_protocol.html - that is indeed different to the spec sheet's description
[0:31] <waveform> right, bed time for me - good luck!
[0:31] * waveform (~waveform@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[0:31] <puff> waveform: aha, thanks.
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[0:42] <flarpydarpy> hello. what is a good powered usb hub to power 4-5 raspberry pis? the ones I see on Amazon are mostly 2.4amp per port, does the pi 3 require 2.5 amp?
[0:43] <flarpydarpy> pi 3 b+ I mean
[0:43] <HrdwrBoB> flarpydarpy: don't think of the USB port as a usb port
[0:43] <HrdwrBoB> think of it as a power cable
[0:43] <HrdwrBoB> that is usb shaped
[0:44] <HrdwrBoB> you don't want a hub, you want a power supply
[0:44] <flarpydarpy> right, that's what I meant
[0:44] * denimsoft (~textual@cpc115988-dals23-2-0-cust224.20-2.cable.virginm.net) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[0:44] <flarpydarpy> https://www.amazon.com/RAVPower-Charger-Desktop-Charging-Technology/dp/B00OQ19QYA/ something like this
[0:45] <HrdwrBoB> https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/47208/multiport-power-supply-for-powering-multiple-pis
[0:46] <shauno> and watch out for the total rating too. that says 2.4A per port, but 2.4 * 6 isn't 60W/12A
[0:47] <flarpydarpy> I noticed that, it should work for 5 though right?
[0:47] <flarpydarpy> the anker one says the same thing
[0:47] <shauno> if it works as claimed, sure. and yeah, that's pretty normal. buy based on the wattage you need, not the number of square holes they drilled in it
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[0:50] <shauno> (I don't know how much less than 2.4A you can actually get away with, but it sounds like the 3b+ has a higher draw than the 3b, so that 2.4A target is more important than it was last week)
[0:51] * energizer (~energizer@unaffiliated/energizer) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:53] <flarpydarpy> the pis shouldn't be maxing at 2.5 amps all day though should they?
[0:54] * duckpuppy (~patrickai@h58.8.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[0:54] * IT_AFK is now known as IT_Sean
[0:54] <shauno> I doubt it. but I think they need to arrive in more people's hands before I'd be willing to say what 'normal' is yet
[0:55] * clemens3 (~clemens@80-218-38-71.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[0:56] <shauno> (it also depends a lot on what you're doing with them, assuming you don't just want 5 because they look cute stacked)
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[0:58] <flarpydarpy> true. i'm surprised adafruit or canakit or someone doesn't sell one.
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[1:00] * weez17 (~isaac@unaffiliated/weez17) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[1:01] <Thedarkb> Is the raspberry pi zero GPIO compatible with the model B one?
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[1:01] <Thedarkb> I want to use mine to flash a BIOS.
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[1:04] <mfa298> depends which B you mean and how compatible you mean (i.e. what methid/library the code uses to talk to the gpio)
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[1:05] <Thedarkb> mfa298, I mean the original model B
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[1:06] <mfa298> well the zero has 40 pins and the original B only has 26, so not totally compatible
[1:06] <Thedarkb> Thanks.
[1:06] <mfa298> but for the most part the first 26 pins match between the two
[1:07] <Thedarkb> Oh, OK then.
[1:07] <Thedarkb> That's all I need.
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[1:07] <mfa298> although a couple of things may have changed depending which revision of the original B you have (there were a few revisions)
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[1:08] <Thedarkb> I need 23, 19, 25, 21 and 24
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[1:08] <Thedarkb> Will software intended for a B work with a Zero W?
[1:09] <Thedarkb> I'm literally just buying one to flash 6 BIOSes
[1:09] <Thedarkb> and the software assumes a model B or B+
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[1:12] <mfa298> is that SPI?If so that should be the same I think
[1:12] <Thedarkb> Yeah, it is.
[1:12] <Thedarkb> I'm going to try selling libreboot motherboards for X60 thinkpads.
[1:13] <Thedarkb> See how they do.
[1:13] <mfa298> if it uses the spidev kernel interface it may well work on any Pi model
[1:13] * ircuser-1 (~Johnny@158.183-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[1:14] <Thedarkb> Oh, perfect.
[1:14] <Thedarkb> I broke my model B
[1:14] <Thedarkb> Inductive spiking.
[1:14] <Thedarkb> From a relay of all things.
[1:14] <IT_Sean> that has been known to happen.
[1:15] <IT_Sean> did you kill it entirely, or just kill that gpio pin?
[1:15] <Thedarkb> Whole fucking thing.
[1:15] <myself> Relays are fiery kickback death for everything transistorized. :P
[1:15] * vstehle (~vstehle@rqp06-1-88-178-86-202.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[1:15] <mfa298> spidev is a standard kernel interface so potentially works with a range of devices (even those pesky non raspberry flavoured ones)
[1:15] <IT_Sean> Oi! Language, Thedarkb.
[1:15] <Thedarkb> Sorry
[1:15] <ebarch> Thedarkb: there's a good chance it's not completely dead. I've brought mine back from the dead by removing/replacing D5
[1:15] <ebarch> it'll get really hot when you power up if it's fried
[1:15] <IT_Sean> That is a shame, though.
[1:15] <myself> I love shoot-through.
[1:16] <ebarch> but removing it will at least allow it to boot (albeit you won't have protection at that point)
[1:16] <myself> No. I love when shoot-through resolves itself when you power-cycle the device.
[1:16] <Thedarkb> I wanted to do it through a parallel port but apparently you need some latches.
[1:17] * jevph (~jevph@cpe-76-186-88-173.tx.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[1:17] <myself> depending on the parallel port mode and voltage, it can be considerably easier.
[1:17] <myself> Heck, you can use a PATA port in PIO mode if you're feeling clever and have an old mobo sitting around :)
[1:18] <Thedarkb> It's a T41p ThinkPad running TinyCore Linux.
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[1:21] * flarpydarpy (adefec29@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[1:21] <Thedarkb> This particular thinkpad has some mobo issues.
[1:21] <r3> ebarch: I've got one (a 2) that does that, you think I could replace D5 with something? I would have to look for where/what D5 is but I bet I could do it!
[1:21] <Thedarkb> So the USB ports and optical drive don't work.
[1:22] <Thedarkb> I have a CardBus USB 2.0 card though.
[1:22] <ebarch> r3: could be. take a look at https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=111600 it's the protection diode on the power input
[1:23] <ebarch> mine wouldn't boot after I fried it. I temporarily removed it and it worked without issue.
[1:23] <r3> was just looking at this: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/schematics/Raspberry-Pi-2B-V1.2-Schematics.pdf
[1:23] <ebarch> best to find the same component and replace it
[1:23] <r3> oh, remove, eh? Hrm. I wonder if I could find a similar PTH diode to replace it with as I don't have anything smaller
[1:24] <ebarch> i bet you could
[1:24] <ebarch> i removed it just to test :P but yeah, not safe long term
[1:24] <r3> looks like it is one of these: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/littelfuse-inc/SMBJ5.0A/SMBJ5.0ALFCT-ND/285951
[1:25] <r3> I will have to try removing it, I mean, it can't really get less useful than it is right now
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[2:07] * BlueProtoman (~androirc@ool-4577f1a5.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:08] <BlueProtoman> Has anyone ever used a Pi to block or mute commercials on cable television?
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[2:44] <Twist> BlueProtoman: does replacing cable TV entirely with Kodi on a Pi count?
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[2:49] <BlueProtoman> Twist: No, but I can't laugh at that because streaming is huge
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[2:56] <Cypher100> The 3B+ is very hot
[2:57] <Cypher100> even the heatsink itself is hot to the touch lol
[2:58] <myself> I mean, thermal flux is a result of temperature difference
[2:58] <myself> if you have heat to move, first you gotta get hot to get it moving
[3:02] <Cypher100> So it's like a hot pizza with the pepperoni moving around
[3:03] * zer0her0 (~Z@unaffiliated/zer0her0) Quit (Quit: 99.999% chance you just witnessed me hit the wrong button.)
[3:05] * Leonarbro (~Leonarbro@S01067824af93741c.cg.shawcable.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[3:05] * gschanuel (~gschanuel@2001:1284:f018:9cea::e75) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[3:07] <Twist> Heh.. I wonder when Microcenter will have stock of the 3B+
[3:08] <Twist> I bought a 3B a couple days before the announcement.
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[3:08] <JohnyTheSmith> Hello
[3:08] <Twist> Cypher100: did the power draw increase? I didn't see mention of that in the official announcement.
[3:08] <Twist> kind of stands to reason it would have to
[3:09] <Cypher100> I don't have a way to measure it atm, but I suspect there is a increase in power draw due to the temps
[3:09] <Twist> Alternatively, it might just be moving heat more effectively
[3:10] <JohnyTheSmith> Recently set up my Raspberry, i have one problem: How can i start a service and keep it running after disconnecting or closing the terminal window (using bitvise)? nohup doesnt seem to do that...
[3:10] * PunchFox (620ef3f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[3:10] <PunchFox> Hey all. Newbie to raspberry pi. I bought a Pi 3B kit to get myself started, came with everything i need, including a pre-installed SD card with Raspian. I've connected a keyboard and mouse to the available USB ports, and my monitor to it with an HDMI->VGA Adapter. It seems to boot up fine, i get the "rainbow screen", and then a bunch of text output, and finally the Raspian loading window, but the second it gets to Desktop, an
[3:10] * v01d1 (~v01d1@5-12-20-170.residential.rdsnet.ro) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:10] <PunchFox> oh.... didnt know there was a character limit
[3:11] <Twist> PunchFox: decent IRC clients will indicate you hit the wall or break it up for you.
[3:11] <PunchFox> Im just using the online client.
[3:11] <PunchFox> brief summary of my huge text wall, im new to pi, my pi boots up and shows the diag screen and text and etc, then goes black the moment it hits Desktop, sometimes before.
[3:12] <PunchFox> I've heard that Raspian has a very aggressive screensaver policy which blacks the screen if it doesn't detect any mouse/keyboard input, so I'm wondering if its to do with that, but I have both of them connected, and fiddling with either achieves nothing.
[3:12] <Twist> PunchFox: IRC is a whole subculture. Flag it for later review. :D
[3:12] <Twist> moving on
[3:12] <PunchFox> The green LED continues to blink for a little bit even after the screen blacks, so I know it's successfully reading from the SD card... any tips?
[3:13] <Twist> You won't like my baseline tip.. don't use VGA
[3:13] <PunchFox> but i see everything fine during boot, so it should work fine, no? Anyways, I'm not about to go and buy a new monitor
[3:13] <Twist> cheap converters can fail to work, and in some cases damage the Pi
[3:14] <PunchFox> I got this converter fro mthe same website i got the kit from. Pishop.us
[3:14] * d4rklit3 (~textual@rrcs-64-183-104-146.west.biz.rr.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[3:14] <Twist> Does the converter have an external power supplu?
[3:14] <Twist> supply
[3:14] <PunchFox> anyways, if it was the converter, im guessing it wouldnt work period, but it shows the boot sequence just fine. And nope.
[3:15] <PunchFox> just a male HDMI to female VGA dongle
[3:15] <Twist> PunchFox: Yeah, you may just have a detection failure in X11, so twoddling the modeline manually might be the way out
[3:15] <Twist> twiddling. yeesh. typing. how does it work?
[3:16] <PunchFox> Can you explain that to me in layman's terms? I work in IT and am very familiar with all things computers, but I'm completely new to Raspberry pi, and Linux isn't my strongpoint
[3:16] <Twist> Oh, handy. http://thegeekyway.com/connect-raspberry-pi-vga-monitortv/
[3:16] <Twist> They floated it up to the config.txt in the root of the SD card.
[3:17] <PunchFox> so from what I'm understansding, I have to load up the SD card into another computer and manually edit the text files as described?
[3:17] <Twist> Yeah. You can also enable SSH and set up your wifi/network while you're in there.
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[3:18] <JohnyTheSmith> How can i start a daemon and keep it running after disconnecting or closing the terminal window (using bitvise)? nohup doesnt seem to do that...
[3:18] <poisonby> Hey. Can the rpi3 power an external usb hdd by itself, or do I need an additional power source for it?
[3:18] <Twist> PunchFox: My usual approach is to set up headless.
[3:19] <leftyfb> JohnyTheSmith: screen is the easiest way
[3:19] <leftyfb> poisonby: depends on what you plug into the hub
[3:19] <Twist> PunchFox: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=raspberry+headless+wifi+ssh
[3:19] <JohnyTheSmith> leftyfb thanks
[3:19] <poisonby> leftyfb: the usb hdd
[3:19] <Twist> PunchFox: Are you familiar with SSH? Putty is probably the most common windows client.
[3:19] <leftyfb> poisonby: no
[3:20] <leftyfb> poisonby: it will not power the usb hdd
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[3:20] <Zardoz> poisonby: it can with limits, but also very dependent on the RPI PSU used.
[3:21] <Twist> PunchFox: alternatively, is there an HDMI TV in the house that could be use for initial setup?
[3:21] <PunchFox> Twist: Yea, I've used SSH before. I'll work on just getting a signal, since I'm a little wuss and have been coddled by GUIs my whole life, but i do plan on setting up some form of remote access once I get that much working. Thanks so much for the help and giving me that link!
[3:21] * fredp (~fredp@unaffiliated/fredp) Quit (Client Quit)
[3:21] <poisonby> leftyfb: A shame, thanks. Another question: I actually powered it on while the hdd was plugged in, powered it off because I realized I should ask before doing it. Can it cause any problems with the pi if it draws too much power?
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[3:21] <Zardoz> leftyfb: sure it can.
[3:21] <Twist> PunchFox: To put this in windows terms, the VGA adapter probably prevented the display driver from detecting the monitor resolution.
[3:22] <Twist> PunchFox: Think about how you can get BIOS and boot text, then no video with the windows display driver is fubar.
[3:23] <Zardoz> poisonby: only thing it can do is power starve the HDD or RPI. one or both may not work.
[3:24] <poisonby> Zardoz: Thanks. Just worried about bricking it or something :P
[3:24] <Zardoz> poisonby: no, will not brick.
[3:24] <TheCryptek> Will someone be willing to help me with checking the time on my raspberry pi via terminal and setting up crontab?
[3:25] <poisonby> Zardoz: Thanks
[3:25] <Twist> JohnyTheSmith: Do you want to start it manually, or have it start on boot? systemd is the topic to explore in the latter case.
[3:25] <Twist> JohnyTheSmith: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/linux/usage/systemd.md
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[3:29] <JohnyTheSmith> Twist Oh i just started it manualy, i intend to keep it running so it doesnt really matter.
[3:29] <JohnyTheSmith> Screen works nicely.
[3:30] <Twist> JohnyTheSmith: A common failure mode is setting something up in this way, then forgetting how it works.
[3:30] <Twist> Four months down the road you catch a reboot due to a power cut, and can't remember how to start the service. :D
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[3:31] <JohnyTheSmith> yeah i guess. I mean my memory is rather good but ill look into that as well
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[3:41] <PunchFox> Twist: I got into my SD card, but the /boot directory appears to be empty... full transparency, I am using a Windows machine with some special driver to read ext file systems installed, but other directories seem to work fine and show files
[3:42] <Twist> boot should be fat
[3:43] <Twist> there's a small root FAT partition anyhoo.
[3:43] <Twist> oh
[3:43] <Twist> heh.. I bet you didn't mount the FAT partition because of said driver
[3:44] <PunchFox> i initially just plugged it in, and only half of the partitions were readable. however, i just realized my mistake. The article was referring to the /boot partition.
[3:44] <PunchFox> which as you said, is readable... whoops.
[3:45] <PunchFox> I was expecting a boot dir inside the linux install partition, but yea, thanks for clarifying that for me
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[4:27] <kzisme> Hmm just rebooted my pi - now I can ping it again...
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[4:33] <PunchFox> Twist: if you are still there, I followed the tutorial, and now it reliably gets to Desktop, but it still goes black soon after... weird thing is, the amount of time it takes between reaching Desktop, and going black, is irregular...
[4:34] <PunchFox> it also always comes back on for a second a little while later, and my monitor gives the "automatic configuration" message, and then goes black again permanently
[4:34] <PunchFox> ok, correction, it keeps turning on for a fraction of a second to do the monitor configuration, and then goes back off
[4:35] * caoliver (~caoliver@75-129-98-132.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[4:35] <poisonby> PunchFox: Black? The monitor you mean? can you get to a TTY?
[4:36] <PunchFox> this is initial setup. I'm trying to get it to show on my monitor. As a summary of whats been going on so far, I have a Pi 3B, and a VGA monitor, so I have an HDMI -> VGA adapter. Originally, it went black after boot, sometimes even before reaching desktop
[4:36] <PunchFox> So i followed this guide, given to me by Twist: http://thegeekyway.com/connect-raspberry-pi-vga-monitortv/
[4:36] <PunchFox> now as I said, it gets to Desktop, then goes black, then keeps coming back on for a second before going black again for a bit, repeatedly
[4:38] <poisonby> PunchFox: Assuming it goes into X, can you get to a TTY?
[4:39] <kzisme> How much lag do most people experience sshing into a pi zero on the same network?
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[4:51] <PunchFox> poisonby: how would I get into TTY? I'm assuming you mean configuring SSH manually on my laptop, and then rebooting and SSHing in? I'm sure that would work just fine, since its still running. The screen has been blinking on and then off as I described for the past 15 minutes
[4:51] <PunchFox> so i know its running... just, would like video to work
[4:53] <stiv> kzisme, minimum of one nanosecond per foot of cable. maximum depends...
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[5:04] <kzisme> stiv: I mean it's on wifi amd I'm connecting via wifi
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[5:16] <poisonby> PunchFox: Sorry for the late response. You use HDMI, right? So I assume you have a keyboard attached. Ctrl + Alt + F2.
[5:17] <poisonby> PunchFox: Basically I'm trying to determine whether there's a problem with the connector, the GPU/driver, X, etc. Getting into a TTY would be a good sign
[5:18] <shbrngdo> boot into a GUI is a bad idea. you should disable that. then you'd have virtual consoles through which you could adjust things
[5:18] <shbrngdo> but if you've got systemd on it, it'll be slightly more difficult and may not work right with 'startx'
[5:18] <poisonby> shbrngdo: How so?
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[5:19] <shbrngdo> depending on the implementation, startx may cause a lot of problems. it did that once with a Mint system when I tried it. but a straight Debian install handled it just fine
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[5:19] <shbrngdo> I'm not sure what the Raspbian setup does
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[5:19] <poisonby> shbrngdo: So what makes you think the cause was systemd?
[5:19] <poisonby> I've *never* had any problem with xinit on a systemd system.
[5:19] <shbrngdo> systemd does too much "magick schtuff" behind the scenes.
[5:21] <poisonby> shbrngdo: Sorry, but you sound full of shit :P
[5:22] <shbrngdo> you can use "systemctl enable multi-user.target --force" followed by "systemctl set-default multi-user.target" to boot to console
[5:22] <shbrngdo> however that's so much extra work compared to removing the 'gdm' files from the run level 'rc#.d' directory, heh
[5:23] <poisonby> Why not just disable the display manager? systemctl disable displaymanager.service
[5:23] <shbrngdo> there's a new one it would've taken hours to find using an online search engine
[5:23] <shbrngdo> I think I'll add that to my 'remember' file, thanks
[5:23] <poisonby> ?????
[5:23] <poisonby> shbrngdo: I don't understand you man
[5:23] * shbrngdo really *HATES* systemd
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[5:24] <shbrngdo> finding where that crap is documented is worse than painful
[5:24] <shbrngdo> wading through it to glean what you need is even worse.
[5:25] <poisonby> shbrngdo: displaymanager.service was obviously a placeholder for whatever DM he is using. Listing existing service files is easy, RTFM: man systemd and man systemctl, also the package manager should be able to tell you where the service file(s) of a given package is
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[5:26] <poisonby> I have a feeling you hate systemd either because you just don't feel like learning a new init system (understandable, but don't bash it), or because you've heard it somewhere. I don't like systemd either, but for other reasons, and I *sincerely* doubt systemd causes any problem with xinit.
[5:26] <shbrngdo> yeah, yeah, the usual from a systemd fan. Let's not start a religious war here. [I'd win]
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[5:27] * shbrngdo runs FreeBSD, which will _never_ have anything even *remotely* like systemd!
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[5:27] <shbrngdo> it's also why i won't run anything on windows 10
[5:27] <shbrngdo> but yeah, "religious war"
[5:27] <poisonby> You're an idiot. Whatever. Calling me a systemd fan is fucking hilarious. Just don't start spewing shit about stuff you don't understand without anything to back it up with.
[5:28] <shbrngdo> thanks for the pejorative
[5:28] <poisonby> You're welcome.
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[5:31] <shbrngdo> so, who's looked at Xorg.0.log yet?
[5:31] <shbrngdo> [strangely nobody suggested looking at the log file]
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[7:55] <mlelstv> looking at log files is like reading manuals
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[8:12] <shbrngdo> source code is more fun
[8:13] <shbrngdo> seriously, though, if the problem is X11 [and I suspect not, but still could be] then the Xorg.0.log file would explain why, more than likely
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[8:13] <shbrngdo> also if you don't boot into a GUI you can use several X11 tools to troubleshoot things
[8:13] <shbrngdo> but anyway, that guy's been away from the channel for a bit
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[9:17] <CSRaghunandan> hello
[9:18] <CSRaghunandan> I'm having trouble configuring an i2s microphone in raspbian
[9:18] <CSRaghunandan> I'm not able to change the capture volume for the mic and the default capture volume is very low
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[9:24] <DrunkenDwarf> Hi all. im trying to work on some Pi networking. I have 2 pis. Pi 1 is kicking out a wifi access point with hostapd and dnsmasq which I can connect to. Pi 1 and Pi 2 are connected via ethernet with static ips. I've set up a nat ipv4 forwarding on pi 1 between eth0 and wlan0. I can connect to pi1s wifi connection but then I need to ssh into pi2 which I cannot. do all the interfaces need to be on the same subnet? or am i missing something else?
[9:25] * CSRaghunandan (~user@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[9:25] <ali1234> you need to set up either routing or bridging
[9:25] <ali1234> nat is routing so it should work
[9:26] <ali1234> you should not need anything more
[9:26] <shbrngdo> DrunkenDwarf - would this help? https://blog.adafruit.com/2018/02/09/raspberry-pi-zero-w-streaming-with-i2s-mic-piday-raspberrypi-raspberry_pi/
[9:26] <DrunkenDwarf> ali1234, hmm. thats what i thought, but when im on pi1s wifi network. i cannot ssh to pi2...
[9:26] <DrunkenDwarf> shbrngdo, ill have a look, thanks
[9:28] <shbrngdo> also after reading your thingy, I'd think that maybe you're not bridging/routing between ethernet and wifi on the Pi 1
[9:28] <DrunkenDwarf> to bridge i followed this: https://frillip.com/using-your-raspberry-pi-3-as-a-wifi-access-point-with-hostapd/ with the section on "Set up IPV4 Forwarding"
[9:29] <shbrngdo> so you'd want to either a) read up on turning the wlan0 and the ethernet into a bridge, or [my preference] b) configure routing on the Pi 1 device
[9:29] <shbrngdo> you also want to make sure that the wifi clients that attach to the Rpi 1 have their DHCP info tell them that the primary gateway is the RPi 1's IP address
[9:29] <DrunkenDwarf> to put it into context. once its working between these 2. pi 2 will also be on a wifi mesh network of 12 pis
[9:30] <shbrngdo> rather than picking through someone else's instructions, I'll go by my own networking experience: you either need to bridge the two adaptors so they route between one another automatically, OR you set up a routing gateway for things attaching themselves to the AP
[9:30] * voltagex (voltagex@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wnpouohdfafkkscp) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[9:30] * lvrp16 (sid153650@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-muchqyiiazhslexl) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[9:31] <DrunkenDwarf> shbrngdo, do you have an example of how to do the routing?
[9:31] * CRImier (~CRImier@zerophone.org) Quit (Quit: Bye I guess)
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[9:32] <shbrngdo> well normally I pick a different subnet, and make sure the primary gateway knows about it. the primary gateway for "the rest of the network" needs to know to send packets to the AP
[9:32] * lvrp16 (sid153650@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qfltzqfsymhicrcx) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:32] <shbrngdo> so you'd set up a static routing on the gateway using the 'route' command [or a config file, whichever]
[9:33] <shbrngdo> if your gateway is an off-the-shelf Wifi access point, it probably won't be able to do this
[9:33] <DrunkenDwarf> i dont have a gateway. its all pis
[9:33] <shbrngdo> so now that I think of it, bridge mode is probably better in your case
[9:33] <shbrngdo> 'pis' ?
[9:33] <DrunkenDwarf> the 2 pis. theyre not connected to an external gateway
[9:34] <shbrngdo> I forget how to create a bridge in linux, but essentially the bridge will have an IP address, and the wlan0 and other adaptor will be members of it
[9:34] <shbrngdo> at least that's how it used to work back when i was working on network kernel drivers
[9:34] <shbrngdo> that was like more than 10 years ago too so my memory is a little foggy on the details
[9:35] <DrunkenDwarf> and to connect from the accessable wifi netwrk on pi1, to a mesh node on pi2, they wont have to be on the same subnet?
[9:35] <shbrngdo> not sure about the mesh node. that's a bit beyond where I'm thinking at the moment.
[9:35] <shbrngdo> I haven't messed with meshes much. that was also 2010'ish last I played with them
[9:37] <shbrngdo> anyway 'd think that setting up a bridge would be the first concern. then the wlan0 and the ethernet will appear as "one big network" to anything attached to either end
[9:37] <DrunkenDwarf> that sound exactly what I want :)
[9:38] <shbrngdo> right - at the low level the bridge handles the 'arp' requests to get the mac address of a particular IP address, and then makes sure it goes to the right place
[9:38] <DrunkenDwarf> ive just found a forum post about setting it up with bridge-utils which looks really easy
[9:39] <shbrngdo> I think the Linux device that gets created is 'br0' - you attach wlan0 and (I guess) eth0 to it, then assign the IP address and subnet mask to br0. Both the ethernet and wlan will reflect the same IP address, and they'll act like a single network adaptor
[9:40] <shbrngdo> quick search, found this: http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/BRIDGE-STP-HOWTO/set-up-the-bridge.html
[9:41] * gilesc (~gilesc@host217-37-178-82.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:41] <shbrngdo> now as for having the networking scripts do that for ya, I'm not so familiar. but I can use something like that to do it from the command line.
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[9:43] <DrunkenDwarf> the only thing I can think of that affecting adversely. is zeroing the wifi ip address and setting it again with that messing up the wifi access point with dnsmasq. though setting it to the same ip as im setting the bridge might help
[9:43] <shbrngdo> you shouldn't set any Ip address to bridge members, only the bridge interface
[9:44] <shbrngdo> that might mean using a USB keyboard rather than ssh'ing since changing the network config on the fly will kill your ssh session
[9:44] <DrunkenDwarf> but dnsmasq requires it to get the dhcp running on the wifi access point
[9:46] <shbrngdo> oh I get it. dnsmasq is probably causing some of this to happen... yeah maybe you can config that later, just get the bridge up and running first and let your network's DHCP do the IP address assignments [I think that still works through a bridge]
[9:46] <shbrngdo> and that's another thing - if you have 2 DHCP servers, you should use separate subnets. otherwise they fight.
[9:47] <shbrngdo> and separate subnets means... routing
[9:47] <shbrngdo> so I'd dispense with dnsmasq and just use your network's DNS and DHCP
[9:48] <DrunkenDwarf> Pi no 1 is running its own wifi acess point which I can connect to via laptop/phone etc. So I think that needs a dhcp server. .. other than that the ethernet bridge and mesh network are all static IPs so no dhcp or dns
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[9:49] <shbrngdo> ah, question answered about DHCP, and a new page on bridges: https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/networking/bridge#does-dhcp-work-overthrough-a-bridge
[9:49] <DrunkenDwarf> cause other than Pi 1, its not on a network with dns and dhcp
[9:50] <shbrngdo> ok - just so you know - dhcp responds to broadcast packets. If you try that with more than one DHCP server, it's like a 'race condition'
[9:51] <shbrngdo> on a multi-homed system that's acting like a gateway [let's say the WAN port on an access point is plugged into your LAN] this isn't a problem for the AP to have DHCP. however, if they're on the SAME LAN, you don't want that
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[9:51] <DrunkenDwarf> yeah. I went thorough that setting up the wifi access point with bost dnsmasq and dhcpcd
[9:51] <DrunkenDwarf> for context. none of this is connecting to any other network or the internet at any point
[9:51] <shbrngdo> right I wouldn't do either one of 'em until you get connectivity, then experiment later
[9:52] <shbrngdo> you still just need connectivity between the devices. But if it's standalone, then I suppose you WOULD need DHCP (and I guess dnsmasq) running, since you're not plugged into your LAN
[9:53] <shbrngdo> I dunno maybe I'm misunderstanding your connectivity. I was thinking ethernet -> Pi 1 -> wlan0 -> Pi 2
[9:53] <shbrngdo> where 'ethernet' is on your LAN and normally has a LAN-visible IP address etc.
[9:54] <shbrngdo> but if you've connected a cable directly into a PC [not a LAN] to ssh in, this is a completely different scenario
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[9:54] <DrunkenDwarf> ahhhh. no, its WiFi -> Pi 1 -> Ethernet -> Pi 2 -> WiFi -> Mesh network
[9:55] <shbrngdo> and you want to be able to ping through the mesh network from the wifi on Pi 1? hmmm...
[9:55] <DrunkenDwarf> yeah
[9:55] <shbrngdo> yeah I'd get each leg to work separately FIRST, then dick around with the settings until it all works, later. That's got routing written all over it.
[9:55] <shbrngdo> if you try to bite that whole thing off in one chunk, you'll probably do bodily damage banging your head into a wall
[9:56] <shbrngdo> so yeah read up on how routing and gateways work, how to configure route tables, and I think you might understand a bit more how to make that kind of thing work... two multi-homed systems in series like that
[9:57] <shbrngdo> or one bridge, one multi-homed [essentially] since you're routing to a mesh
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[9:58] <DrunkenDwarf> okay. thank you for your help. I might have to go for a smoke and get it sorted in my head. then i wil focus on bridge first and do it in stages
[9:59] <shbrngdo> there ya go - how to eat an elephant - one bite at a time
[9:59] <shbrngdo> 2am. zzzzzz
[10:01] <DrunkenDwarf> lol. thanks. i was worried noone would be around at this time. im working in china atm and, well, timezones
[10:03] * fredp2 (~fredp@unaffiliated/fredp) Quit ()
[10:04] * raynold (uid201163@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qqvumdluitlbinxq) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[10:11] <red9> DrunkenDwarf, Don't worry. The timezone for hackers & tinkers may differ substantially from the official one ;)
[10:11] <DrunkenDwarf> :P
[10:12] * elektrinis (~circuit@unaffiliated/circuit) Quit (Quit: pokðt)
[10:12] <red9> Besides being an international project. There's usually at least some people around all the time.
[10:12] * bikram (~bikram@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[10:13] * PunchFox (620ef3f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[10:13] <red9> How do you get unrestrained irc access from that country? I read they pushed for harder restrictions as of lately. In aprticular for VPN services.
[10:13] * energizer (~energizer@unaffiliated/energizer) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[10:14] <DrunkenDwarf> yeah. VPNs are now more or less illegal. My academic one works from a university wifi, but its getting harder. strangely, freenode is freely accessable
[10:16] <gilesc> my guess, for irc, it is more about them being able to see what is being communicated, rather than blocking it. Besides irc is used as C&C for botnets, which the state and pro chinese activists probably need to access more than it needs to block.
[10:16] <red9> Can you use TLS with freenode? if not that explains the "free" access..
[10:17] <Lartza> "DrunkenDwarf is using a secure connection"
[10:17] <Lartza> red9, Unlike you for instance :P
[10:17] <red9> So an efficient strategy may be to tag along with the activists? ;)
[10:17] <red9> Lartza, I know..lazy ;)
[10:18] <Lartza> Well I just use SSL for reasons
[10:18] <Lartza> Don't really have anything to hide that I need it
[10:18] <red9> Three letter reasons? :p
[10:18] <Lartza> I'm on quakenet anyways and they don't have ssl
[10:19] <red9> The problem with "I have nothing to hide" is that other parties decides what needs to be hiden in order to stay out of trouble. So even following the law and being moral won't help.
[10:20] <red9> Anyway
[10:22] <red9> My thoughts on that far-east country is that if international access is severely impeded. Then a lot of qualified people will consider that country even less attractive and cumbersome to deal with.
[10:23] <Lartza> red9, I mean, if I wanted to hide SSL wouldn't be the solution
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[10:36] <red9> DrunkenDwarf, Are satellite phones prohibited in any way?
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[13:27] <Robdgreat> the problem with SSL on IRC is if not everyone is using it it's as good as nobody using it
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[13:48] <mfa298> depends what you're tryign to secure.
[13:49] <mfa298> ssl on IRC will (or should) protect your authentication (for the registered users) and potentially private chats (if you're both on a secure connection)
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[14:09] <DReynolds> my wifi bridging didnt work. If I have a pi with 2 wifi adapters, one joining a network and one hosting it. and I want to connect to the hosted network and access the devices on the other. Im thinking this with ipv4 routing+nat should both networks be on the same subnet? or different ones?
[14:09] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@ Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[14:11] <lopta> Wait, are you routing or bridging?
[14:11] <DReynolds> routing. bridging isnt supported without 4 channel wifi adapters ive learned
[14:12] <DReynolds> unless im mistaken and can bridge with greater ease
[14:13] <lopta> Ah, ok.
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[14:14] <lopta> For clarity I'd probably use a different IP network for the second WiFi LAN.
[14:15] <DReynolds> And routing between the two will work? So I can wifi my laptop to the hosted wifi, and ssh to the devices on the other network on a different subnet?
[14:15] * mythos (~mythos@unaffiliated/mythos) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[14:16] * lopta ponders
[14:16] <lopta> If your Pi Access Point is the default gateway for devices on its wireless LAN, I don't see why not. Going the other way could be more tricky though.
[14:17] <lopta> ...might be cleaner to do it without NAT but then you have to be careful to avoid overlapping DHCP pools.
[14:17] <lopta> It's probably possible, I just don't know how.
[14:17] <lopta> Someone in #packetpushers will know though.
[14:18] <DReynolds> hmmm. I could do it on the same subnet withoug NAT? I can be sure of not overlapping DHCP
[14:19] <DReynolds> only one of the networks has DHCP, the mesh network is all static ips. so I can set the dhcp in the range of the subnet i know i wont use
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[14:25] <mfa298> DReynolds: bridging with wifi where the wifi interface is in client mode (i.e. connecting to another AP) will give problems (and may not be possible at all)
[14:25] <mfa298> routing (possibly with NAT) is possible, but you'll need to ensure each network is on it's own network, and any devices will need to know how to get to the other network
[14:26] <mfa298> exactly how you do that is dependant on how it's setup and what the various devices are.
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[14:31] <leftyfb> DReynolds: is this what you're looking to do? https://pimylifeup.com/raspberry-pi-wifi-bridge/
[14:31] <leftyfb> but with 2 wifi's as opposed to ethernet
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[14:33] <lopta> I would look at that if I had a working Web browser ;-)
[14:34] <leftyfb> lopta: how did you break your browser? On a pc or pi?
[14:35] <lopta> leftyfb: I didn't break it. I'm just trying to get one built.
[14:35] <lopta> (on a Pi)
[14:35] <leftyfb> lopta: just install chromium?
[14:36] * IT_Sean is now known as IT_AFK
[14:36] <lopta> leftyfb: I'm on NetBSD and using pkgsrc, so I don't think Chromium is even an option.
[14:36] <leftyfb> gross
[14:36] <lopta> Besides, Chrome (and probaby Chromium) lacks a couple of features that I use regularly.
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[14:36] <leftyfb> what features?
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[14:37] <lopta> RSS feeds, mostly.
[14:38] <leftyfb> I have an extension for chrome that allows me to subscribe to an rss feed on a site if that's what you mean
[14:39] <lopta> Ah ok. I haven't looked at that. Firefox does it out of the box.
[14:39] * mfa298 hates guides that use the wrong terms, the link leftyfb is a router not a bridge
[14:40] <leftyfb> yeah, that's the one thing I missed about firefox. But then I found the extension and all was right. But these days, I don't even bother with rss
[14:40] <leftyfb> mfa298: ah, I didn't actually read through. ..i assumed he was doing a proper bridge
[14:41] <leftyfb> https://pimylifeup.com/raspberry-pi-wifi-extender/
[14:41] <leftyfb> that looks to be what DReynolds is looking for
[14:42] * davr0s (~textual@host81-155-68-143.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:42] <mfa298> leftyfb: nope, dhcp, dns and nat. As I said earlier a real bridge (i.e. using bridge-utils to create a br0 interface) with a wifi client won't work too well (if at all)
[14:42] <leftyfb> bah ... this guy needs to reword his tutorials then
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[14:44] <mfa298> that wifi extender looks like the best you're likely to manage with two wifi interfaces, although for devices on the "wan" side to talk to the "lan" side it'll take a bit more customisation of routing tables and nat rules.
[14:44] <mfa298> it's a good network learning exercise to get all that stuff working though
[14:44] <leftyfb> I would just do that and use sshuttle to a node on the other side :)
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[15:14] <davr0s> pi/battery - seems one of these little usb phone chargers 5a 1A does let me boot.. anything i should know? i thought 1A wouldn't be enough. but some tables seem to indicate it would be enough to power video recording (that's my intended application)
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[15:16] <lopta> davr0s: I doubt 1A is enough for that but I suppose if you have everything else plugged into a powered hub it might work.
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[15:18] <davr0s> i guess it will fail on 3d graphics
[15:19] <lopta> Possibly.
[15:20] <davr0s> hah maybe i spoke to soon. running the desktop, i just plugged a keyboard in and that rebooted it (i preseume lost power)
[15:20] <lopta> Oops.
[15:20] <davr0s> rebooted, lets see what i can get away with. i have a keyboard and mouse working
[15:22] <lopta> The Pi on my desk at work is running from something that's essentialy a phone charger. I get away with it because keyboard, mouse and WiFi adaptor are plugged into the monitor's powered hub.
[15:24] <Jekotia> davr0s: You also need to be careful with USB chargers (and their cords). Even if a power source outputs to spec, and the specs meet the Pi's needs, there can be subtle fluctuations that a device with a battery wont care about, but that can play hell with the Pi. I learned that the hard way.
[15:25] <davr0s> Jekotia ok, noted. 'the hard way' - fried?
[15:26] <Jekotia> Fried would have been easier. I'd just replace it, stop doing that, and move on
[15:26] <Jekotia> Kept corrupting it's OS, seemingly for no reason. I never linked it back to power myself, since on paper it was a good solution
[15:27] <Jekotia> I was using the charger that shipped with the original Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1. On paper it was more than enough. But the pi would randomly flash it's power warning on screen. I looked it up, and I saw people mentioning that in RARE cases it's a non-issue. Just the Pi acting up.
[15:28] <Jekotia> Went on to headless use, so I never saw the warning again. But the damn thing kept corrupting on me
[15:29] <Jekotia> Now I'm running Berryboot on a slow AF USB drive, and with the power issue solved, trying to migrate my existing image back to microsd
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[15:30] <Jekotia> Tip for anyone thinking of similar berryboot things: the wiki page doesn't fully cover the fstab changes needed. It's better to take a look at the fstab in one of the berryboot distributed OS images and just overwrite your images fstab with that
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[15:45] <r3> maybe, since you say it is a wiki, might be better to leave a comment there?
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[16:30] <larsks> Is there a way to add a text overlay (date/time) to live video stream that won't kill my framerate (on a pi zero w)? Adding the text requires re-encoding the video, and that seems to drop my framerate down to around 2-4 fps.
[16:31] * IT_Sean is now known as IT_AFK
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[16:32] <Armand> larsks: Why not pass it to a HDMI capture card?
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[16:32] <davr0s> hmm ... just tried my camera module - managed to record a video. rebooted. tried again, it tells me it's not there
[16:32] <larsks> Armand: I...what? I have pi zero w with a raspberry pi camera module.
[16:33] <larsks> I'm not sure where an hdmi capture card would enter the picture?
[16:33] <larsks> davr0s: the video is not there? Or the camera module?
[16:33] <Armand> Because a PC with a cap card can encode it with the overlay.. and it would have more power available. :)
[16:33] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[16:33] <davr0s> previously recorded video file exists; but after reboot trying to record another, it tells me the camera isn't enabled
[16:34] <davr0s> jst trying again ..
[16:34] <larsks> davr0s: that's odd. What does "vcgencmd get_camera" report?
[16:35] <davr0s> i'll try that when it's booted
[16:35] <davr0s> admitedly, my plastic connector snapped off and i've got tape holding the thing in lol
[16:36] <lopta> Oooh, I should price up a USB video capture thing.
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[16:38] <davr0s> i have another pi with intact connector i can try it in
[16:38] <waveform> larsks, http://picamera.readthedocs.io/en/release-1.13/recipes1.html#overlaying-text-on-the-output
[16:38] <davr0s> its possible without the plastic lock it doesn't connect tight enough, i guess
[16:39] <larsks> waveform: thanks. That's interesting, but I think that may only be for still images.
[16:39] <waveform> no, works fine with video - see further down that recipe
[16:39] <waveform> (there's literally a script down there for timestamping video)
[16:41] <larsks> Huh, interesting. I see that raspivid supports a --anotate option, but that would only get me a static annotation. I guess I would write up a python script that would perform the annotations and feed video on stdout to e.g. ffmpeg?
[16:41] <waveform> why feed it to ffmpeg? The annotation is performed in the GPU pipeline prior to encoding so you can simply take the H.264 output
[16:42] <larsks> I'm using ffmpeg to stream the video to youtube. It adds a null audio track and speaks rtsp.
[16:42] <larsks> Err, rtmp.
[16:42] <waveform> ah fair enough - in that case, sure - just do camera.start_recording(sys.stdout, format='h264', ...)
[16:42] * DuchiDachi (~DuchiDach@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[16:42] <waveform> pipe the output of that script to ffmpeg, job done
[16:43] <larsks> I'll give that a shot.
[16:44] <waveform> (and yes, raspivid's annotation is static (as I recall) - that's the downside of using an application instead of a library to control the camera (one of the major reasons I wrote picamera in the first place :)
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[16:55] <shbrngdo> ffmpeg is a good way. gstreamer also. it depends on what kind of filtering (etc.) you want.
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[16:59] <larsks> waveform: that worked out great, thanks!
[16:59] <waveform> good to hear!
[16:59] <davr0s> seems the PiZero camera does work when plugged in via the adapter into my RPi2
[16:59] <davr0s> i guess the broken connector is a problem, it might not really connect
[17:00] <davr0s> (broken plastic tab).. damn it's fidly
[17:00] <davr0s> should i give up and by a f***ing gopro
[17:01] <davr0s> and save the pis for other purposes
[17:01] * Trel (~Trel@c-76-117-237-163.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:03] <larsks> davr0s: I dunno, you can buy a *lot* of pi cameras for the cost of a gopro :)
[17:03] <shbrngdo> yeah those pinch connectors are tricky. And cheaply made, from what I can tell. I've had to purchase a connector of that type for a customer project. A really teeny one
[17:03] * Arcaelyx (~Arcaelyx@2604:2000:f14a:2500:dc1d:3ad9:fb11:a08c) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:03] <shbrngdo> imagine working the flap thingy with tweezers
[17:04] <shbrngdo> I also can't imagine replacing one and NOT damaging the board
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[17:04] <davr0s> i guess the fullsize pi ones are less fiddly.. parhaps i'll try again with those
[17:04] <davr0s> although my adapter seems to have worked ok
[17:05] <shbrngdo> they're probabyl the same connector
[17:05] <shbrngdo> or maybe not - pi zero is designed for very low cost
[17:05] <lopta> Do the Pi Zero and B+ have different CSI connectors?
[17:05] <davr0s> yes
[17:05] <waveform> yes, the fullsize ones are *much* easier - they get rather loose after repeated use (as I know all too well), but I haven't had one break yet. I've had two 0s camera connectors break
[17:05] <lopta> That's useful to know.
[17:05] * djbeadle (~djbeadle@dyn138122.cc.lehigh.edu) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:05] <shbrngdo> yeah thanks. it confirms the 'cheap connector' hypothesis anyway
[17:06] <shiftplusone> The problem isn't that it's cheap but that it's much smaller to fit on the zero
[17:06] * djbeadle (~djbeadle@dyn138122.cc.lehigh.edu) Quit (Client Quit)
[17:06] <davr0s> yes
[17:06] <waveform> lopta, the 0s have a "mini" CSI connector - it's electrically the same but physically smaller (so the adapter just "compresses" the connections)
[17:07] <davr0s> i'll know for next time to be less clumsy.. maybe tweasers
[17:07] <shiftplusone> mechanical things tend to get more fragile as they get smaller so it helps to be careful (even with the full size ones)
[17:07] <lopta> waveform: Thanks
[17:07] <inc0gn1t0> I just saw a new vid about a new pi B+ coming out, was posted 3 days ago, supports Ethernet power, and 5gz WiFi. Is this real?
[17:07] <waveform> yup
[17:07] <lopta> inc0gn1t0: That's a 3B+
[17:07] <inc0gn1t0> 😮
[17:07] <lopta> inc0gn1t0: There's also the 2B and B+
[17:07] <inc0gn1t0> I know, I assumed you would know the latest pi lol
[17:07] <lopta> (B+ is single-core)
[17:07] <inc0gn1t0> My apologues
[17:08] <inc0gn1t0> Is it for sale yet??
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[17:09] <waveform> yes - although plenty of places will be out of stock by now
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[17:09] <shbrngdo> from what I've read, 3B+ has a slightly faster CPU with fewer thermal problems
[17:09] <inc0gn1t0> Yeah, the cpu is better encased to stay cooler
[17:09] <shbrngdo> as long as it's compatible with older SD card images, I'm happy to see it
[17:09] * Trel (~Trel@c-76-117-237-163.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:09] <inc0gn1t0> And can boot with no sd!? I'm excited. Brb
[17:10] <waveform> yes, the thermal design is *much* better to the point that even though the clock is only a little faster it can stay at high speeds for much longer periods (my 3+ has been compiling opencv packages for the last 40 hours straight and it's still at 1.4Ghz)
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[17:10] <lopta> waveform: Nice!
[17:10] <waveform> inc0gn1t0, technically the 3 can boot with not SD but it's a much riskier proposition (because the bootcode is rather iffy)
[17:10] <waveform> *no SD
[17:10] <inc0gn1t0> waveform: u have the newest one already?
[17:10] <davr0s> lol
[17:10] <gilesc> shbrngdo, I tried to transpose a SD from 3B to 3B+ even after doing apt update;apt dist-upgrade, and was no go, had to download 2018-03-13 raspbian image
[17:11] <davr0s> gaffer tape to jam it in .. helped a little, it recognized it
[17:11] <shbrngdo> waveform - why exactly do you need opencv? I've messed with it, discovered it has a lot of [somewhat irritating] limitations
[17:11] <waveform> inc0gn1t0, yup - also worth noting though you can you boot most Pis (except the early model 1s) from the network with an SD that just contains the bootcode.bin file (so the SD is effectively read-only)
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[17:11] <inc0gn1t0> Ooh😮
[17:11] <davr0s> i think that at least confirms i need the tab to squash it in properly
[17:12] <waveform> shbrngdo, heh - personally I *don't* need opencv - I'm compiling it in many versions and with several different option sets for the piwheels service (which I also have a hand it)
[17:12] <waveform> *in
[17:12] <waveform> inc0gn1t0, more info here: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bootmodes/
[17:12] <inc0gn1t0> Thank uuu
[17:12] <shbrngdo> I get it.
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[17:13] <waveform> shbrngdo, however many picamera users do want opencv and get mightily annoyed when they have to wait several hours to compile it on a Pi (and that's on a 3 - it's *hugely* long on 0). Unfortunately it's also non-trivial to compile (not a straight "pip wheel" job), hence the interest in making it easier for people so my inbox is a little less stressed ;)
[17:13] <shbrngdo> I once did a customer project that had a video camera that needed to be displayed live on a web page, only altered. THe original spec was to use opencv, but I couldn't get rid of the 1 second delay. So I used gstreamer directly and solved it pretty fast.
[17:13] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@ Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[17:14] <ali1234> gstreamer is great
[17:14] <ali1234> but you can integrate opencv with it if you want
[17:14] <waveform> hmmm, opencv tends to use ffmpeg for decoding under the covers - and it's probably configured not to be concerned with latency
[17:14] <shbrngdo> waveform - gotcha - FreeBSD uses a program called 'poudriere' to set up build environments to convert the 'ports' into binary packages, and it uses cross-compilers. Just a thought to mention it.
[17:14] <ali1234> i dont know why you'd use opencv unless you're doing... computer vision though
[17:15] <lopta> I've been craving a B+ but $5 extra will get me three more cores and twice the RAM...and WiFi.
[17:15] <davr0s> attempt 2 with the tape plus thumb worked
[17:15] <davr0s> it seems a taping solution might work if i can get the pressure right, LOL
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[17:15] <waveform> shbrngdo, hehe - the number #1 FAQ we get with piwheels is "why don't you just cross-compile" to which the answer is, for specific projects that's fine but piwheels builds *all* of pypi (all versions of all packages) and craziness abounds there - actually easier to just "do it on a Pi"
[17:15] <waveform> (especially when mythic give us several cloud Pis for free :)
[17:16] <shbrngdo> yeah it's just that I found that opencv has built-in limitations (like that 1 second stream cache I couldn't get rid of)
[17:16] <inc0gn1t0> Will it fit the older pi 3 cases the same?
[17:16] <ali1234> but seriously though... why not cross compile? if i can cross compile gobject-introspection then i am certain some python modules can be done
[17:16] <waveform> inc0gn1t0, depends on the case - in some cases yes, in others no
[17:16] <ali1234> you got any real corner cases i can look at?
[17:16] <shbrngdo> waveform - I 'do it on a pi' when developing specifically for a pi. So I totally get that.
[17:17] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - kernel drivers
[17:17] <ali1234> what about them?
[17:17] <lopta> What's the CPU clock speed for a 2B?
[17:17] <shbrngdo> you can set them up to cross-compile, but if you're developing them it's easier to build locally
[17:17] <waveform> ali1234, to give you an idea of the level of craziness: bear in mind that PyPI's packaging essentially boils down to "please run your arbitrary python script on my machine". I've literally seen a package do: print("Press Ctrl+C when you've installed these dependencies"); while True: pass
[17:18] * borkr (~borkr@static130-244.mimer.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:18] <waveform> (had to insert manual skips on that version ;)
[17:18] <ali1234> lol. but that's not really any worse for cross compiling though
[17:18] <inc0gn1t0> Big question. Did they change the gpio pins that everyone uses to plug the fan in that they aren't supposed to because it's 5v and not 3.3?
[17:18] <ali1234> also, isn't like 90% of pypi junk/broken anyway?
[17:18] <shbrngdo> waveform - yeah some developers need to be 'educated' with a cat-5-o-nine-tails
[17:18] <inc0gn1t0> So we don't have to wire a resistor
[17:18] <lopta> Ah, 900 MHz.
[17:18] <waveform> ali1234, not quite 90% - about 25% in our experience :)
[17:19] <waveform> (i.e. we've got >70% successful build rate)
[17:19] <ali1234> well, i'll take your word for that, as i haven't looked in detail
[17:19] <davr0s> strange mix of kludgy despair and awesomeness
[17:19] <waveform> ali1234, https://github.com/waveform80/piwheels-analysis/blob/master/analysis_failures2.ipynb (I have :)
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[17:19] <inc0gn1t0> I'm asking alot because I'm about to hit "purchase"
[17:19] <inc0gn1t0> Lol
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[17:20] <shbrngdo> I've seen some pretty horrific code written in python.
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[17:20] <lopta> Python is the new BASIC
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[17:20] <lopta> (I'm told)
[17:20] <shbrngdo> yeah and someone gets in there and says "oooh, python can do OBJECTS" and then DOES it. everywhere. poorly.
[17:21] <waveform> inc0gn1t0, GPIO pins are the same as always (backwards compatibility is still a big thing on the Pi)
[17:21] <ali1234> python is nothing but objects
[17:21] <inc0gn1t0> Ok thnx
[17:21] <waveform> ali1234, come to think of it: picamera is one (bad) example of something that won't cross compile because I do something really naughty in setup.py...
[17:22] <shbrngdo> my biggest concerns on the pi is that I can take an SD card image for a system that has parts I bought >2 years ago, buy new RPis for new units, and still have them work.
[17:22] <shbrngdo> because using 'the latest raspbian' is NOT an option
[17:22] <waveform> it checks if you're on a Pi by querying /proc/cpuinfo and blows up with an error if you're not. And the only reason I did it was because I was sick of people emailing me asking how to get picamera working on a PC ... seriously :)
[17:22] <ali1234> it should have a PC mode
[17:22] <waveform> (I ought to remove that now; haven't had an e-mail like that in a couple of years)
[17:23] <ali1234> so you can test scripts :)
[17:23] <ali1234> v4l2 wrapper :)
[17:23] <shbrngdo> waveform - someone figured out how to remove that line of code?
[17:23] <shbrngdo> actually a video for linux wrapper could just use gstreamer
[17:24] <waveform> oh it's trivial enough to work around (I used to myself as I used to develop on my ubuntu box, but frankly the 3 was fast enough to just do development on it directly so I switched to that for picamera a while back)
[17:24] <shbrngdo> yeah there's a nice dependency list you might want to avoid if you want to use a small SD card
[17:24] <ali1234> i like gst-rpicamsrc
[17:24] <shbrngdo> gstreamer does clog things up if you load it all
[17:24] <shbrngdo> well, not 'clog' just a bozillian things
[17:25] <ali1234> i build my own version of it with all the useless stuff configured out
[17:25] <shbrngdo> that's not an uncommon thing. you see that with ffmpeg stuff by vlc
[17:25] <waveform> ali1234, a PC mode would involve mocking up MMAL (the underlying library, which is BCM specific) on the PC - too much work for no major gain
[17:25] <shbrngdo> include 'the other package' as actual source files rather than trusting the installed version
[17:26] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@ Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[17:26] <ali1234> can't you just implement the high level abstraction?
[17:26] <ali1234> shbrngdo: i dont do that. i build a shared library version
[17:27] <waveform> ali1234, sure - but it's still a fair bit of work for no major gain
[17:27] <shbrngdo> right but you're now relying on the implementation of that shared lib
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[17:27] <shbrngdo> so as long as that's ok, you can do it
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[17:28] <shbrngdo> it's just that the vlc people apparently did NOT trust the ffmpeg installs [at least at one time]. I haven't looked at their source in a while, though
[17:28] <waveform> (and by implement I assume you mean "mock" - I couldn't implement an *actual* abstraction of MMAL - too many unknowns in the closed-source firmware to make it anywhere near accurate)
[17:28] <shbrngdo> yeah broadcom does that a LOT with their stuff - closed source BLOB with an open source wrapper
[17:29] * shbrngdo used to work on broadcom wireless - had access to their source files for WRT
[17:29] <davr0s> (1 step closer to my goal , i have the pi unteathered,running off battery, recording video.. i might need a more practical way to start it than SSHing if i'm going to use this for cycling , lol, although i suppose i can ssh from a smartphone app
[17:29] * z0 (~zzz@2001:8a0:ca05:d701:b5bb:4e92:527:7192) Quit (Quit: z0)
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[17:30] <shbrngdo> maybe you can put a pushbutton on it with an LED indicating "recording" ?
[17:30] <shbrngdo> you can use a script to test for the button and toggle the LED
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[17:31] <davr0s> yeah that would be good,
[17:31] <ali1234> waveform: would you mind taking a look at this? https://github.com/ali1234/ugly
[17:31] <shbrngdo> a "sleep 0.1" loop will proably work to poll the GPIO pin
[17:31] <waveform> ali1234, fabulous name ;)
[17:31] * yeticry (~yeticry@ Quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds)
[17:31] <ali1234> it's a wrapper library for small LED displays
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[17:32] <davr0s> heh the gaffer tape connection is fragile, i lost it again.still i'm encouraged to have seen it working
[17:33] <davr0s> i can grab another one and redeploy this some other way
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[17:34] <ali1234> waveform: it kind of grew out of this rewritten unicorn hd camera example: https://gist.github.com/ali1234/5f5ced4dcce4fc1a5c99145b2a9cb449#file-switchingdemo-py-L12
[17:35] <ali1234> using numpy there makes it run about 4x faster
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[17:35] <ali1234> plus all the pimoroni libraries being different codebases, different apis, but having largely the same set of demos
[17:36] * shbrngdo sees "using numpy makes it run about 4x faster" and thinks: what the HELL were they doing before???
[17:36] <waveform> ali1234, interesting - just looking into how you're actually writing to the display
[17:36] <waveform> shbrngdo, probably just using lists and tuples
[17:37] <ali1234> shbrngdo: copying the image with a double nested for loop
[17:37] <waveform> shbrngdo, there used to be good reason to avoid numpy as a dependency because in venvs it did take *ages* to build (less of an excuse now we've got it in piwheels, but that's one of the reasons it's an optional dependency in picamera)
[17:37] <shbrngdo> I dunno my experience in cleaning up poorly written python code included seeing why they're using numpy instead of doing it 'the easy way' (along with the performance benefits from using 'the easy way')
[17:38] <shbrngdo> well, when numpy becomes a wrapper around a library written in C I'll stop criticizing it.
[17:38] <ali1234> it already is
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[17:38] <shbrngdo> not the stuff I've seen
[17:38] <ali1234> has been since forever
[17:38] <ali1234> that's the whole point of it
[17:38] <shbrngdo> ok ENTIRELY in C then
[17:38] <waveform> yup - numpy is almost entirely C
[17:39] <shbrngdo> must not be the same numpy I looked at
[17:39] <ali1234> you must be thinking of some other library :)
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[17:39] <shbrngdo> what I saw was a bunch of tiny functions written in python
[17:39] <shbrngdo> or maybe that was just the stuff i was looking at, not all of it
[17:39] <waveform> yeah, that's definitely not numpy
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[17:40] <shbrngdo> maybe numpy from a few years ago then
[17:40] <waveform> ali1234, the Buffer implementation looks good but you might be interested in another thing I bashed together a while ago (might give you some ideas on the buffer side of things) - just a sec and I'll dig it up (it was an alternate screen driver for the Sense HAT)
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[17:42] <waveform> ali1234, here we go: https://github.com/waveform80/pisense/blob/master/pisense/screen.py - because the sense HAT's screen has a frame-buffer that constructs a numpy array on top of the frame buffer (with frombuffer) and then provides some facilities to manage the RGB888<->RGB565 translation
[17:42] <shbrngdo> I'd have to dig up old source files to see what it was... pretty sure it was a part of numpy, written in python, a recursive call to handle polynomials
[17:42] <ali1234> i just realised that camera example can be made even faster by just taking every other pixel instead of averaging :)
[17:43] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@ Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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[17:44] <waveform> anyway - I must go and finish off some things then pick up my daughter from nursery - cya later
[17:44] <ali1234> waveform: will take a look thanks
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[17:56] <shbrngdo> heh - thought so - https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/master/numpy/polynomial/polynomial.py <-- an example of what I waded through and re-wrote using C
[17:57] <shbrngdo> except in the case of what I was working on, it was just using some of that functionality on polynomial coefficients
[17:57] <shbrngdo> it's relevant for RPi because the CPU is "underpowered" compared to PCs and servers
[17:57] <shbrngdo> so wasting a lot of time doing python monkey-motions may hurt your performance a LOT
[17:58] <ali1234> that file is 90% comments
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[17:58] <shbrngdo> maybe, maybe not. the point is the array stuff inside of loops, things like that. there's still a LOT of 'pure python' in numpy, and that's where the bottlenecks would be. But for small stuff, prob'ly ok. just not on 'megapixels'
[17:59] <shbrngdo> it may mean doing a 'surgical strike' to elminate the performance problems, but then continue to use it for other stuff
[18:00] <shbrngdo> that way you dont' hae to take out 'every other pixel'
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[18:00] <ali1234> dropping pixels is just the fastest way tp halve the resolution of an image
[18:00] <ali1234> and numpy can do it directly in C
[18:00] * duckpuppy (~patrickai@ Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[18:01] <ali1234> you can just say image[::2,::2]
[18:01] <ali1234> that's faster than taking the average
[18:01] * lopta files that under "crude but swift)
[18:01] <lopta> "
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[18:03] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - yeah, you could do that but the thing i would consider is re-writing the key features of the library entirely in C or C++ and then calling from python
[18:03] * Dave_MMP is now known as djsxxx_away
[18:03] <ali1234> why? it would not make any difference to the speed
[18:03] <shbrngdo> then you use C or C++ where it makes sense, and python where performance isn't a problem
[18:03] <ali1234> the key parts are already written in C because i use numpy
[18:04] <shbrngdo> I'm basing this on my experience with doing _exactly_ that. if there are python functions doing things in loops, the slowness just happens
[18:04] <ali1234> there aren't any loops
[18:04] <ali1234> operations are done directly on arrays
[18:04] <inc0gn1t0> I bought it😁
[18:04] <lopta> inc0gn1t0: What did you buy?
[18:05] <shbrngdo> well, if you're convinced, then I'm not stopping you. my experience of cleaning up old python code says otherwise.
[18:05] <shbrngdo> and yeah maybe it's tainted because it was _poorly_ _written_ python code, but still...
[18:05] <ali1234> there are actually a couple of loops i should vectorize out
[18:05] <ali1234> no need for C to do it though
[18:06] <shbrngdo> well, if you can keep it 'pure python' and save effort, it might be worth doing just that
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[18:06] <shbrngdo> but now you're focusing on the potential problem areas, so that's a good thing.
[18:06] * lopta wants to sleep
[18:07] <GenteelBen> League of Polish Travel Agents?
[18:07] <shbrngdo> FYI - last year I was correcting serious performance in a DJango-based web server, that was taking > 2 minutes to import binary files. got the process down to under 20 seconds [still used python for charting], but less than 5 seconds on the importing using C language utilities
[18:07] <shbrngdo> so yeah, poorly written python code probably tainted my opinion heh
[18:08] <ali1234> i've written performance critical code in numpy and CUDA
[18:08] <shbrngdo> as long as you don't have gross problems you have to weigh effort against performance
[18:08] <ali1234> there is no trade off
[18:09] <shbrngdo> hmm... python = interpretive, C = native binary. not sure how that's correct
[18:09] <ali1234> properly written numpy code performs approximately as fast as C
[18:09] <lopta> Can numpy use CUDA?
[18:09] <ali1234> lopta: no, it can use the intel thing... mk?
[18:09] <shbrngdo> well 'properly written' is the key I guess
[18:10] <ali1234> lopta: mkl, which can run on that silly CPU with ~256 cores or whatever
[18:10] <lopta> Hmm... I'm not familiar with that.
[18:10] <ali1234> not many people are because it's not commodity hardware like GPUs
[18:10] <lopta> I'd look it up but I'm still waiting for Firefox to build.
[18:11] <shbrngdo> heh - FF takes hours on a quad core
[18:11] <ali1234> xeon phi is the CPU
[18:11] <ali1234> up to 72 cores
[18:11] <shbrngdo> that many cores is really only good for virtualization. unless you can split up your tasks into that many chunks, it just spins in low power wait mode
[18:11] <inc0gn1t0> The pi 3 B+ only one place still had stock
[18:12] <ali1234> it's designed for SIMD
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[18:12] <ali1234> which happens to be perfect for anything involving arrays
[18:12] <inc0gn1t0> @lopta
[18:12] <ali1234> as long as you dont use for loops
[18:12] <ali1234> numpy is probably faster than a naive C implementation using nested for loops
[18:12] <shbrngdo> there's an interesting idea - a generic threading algorithm for array-related stuff. I'll consider it.
[18:12] <ali1234> due to its abaility to use SIMD instructions when appropriate
[18:13] <ali1234> unless your compiler can optimize it out
[18:13] <shbrngdo> without the python-to-C layer it might be even faster...
[18:13] <shbrngdo> heh
[18:13] <ali1234> sure, like 0.1% :)
[18:14] <shbrngdo> you sure about that? my experience suggests otherwise. there's a LOT of overhead inside of python, from what I can tell
[18:14] <shbrngdo> garbage collection would be one biggee
[18:14] <ali1234> depends on data size
[18:14] <shbrngdo> I'm used to dealing with megabytes of data
[18:14] <ali1234> bigger data means the python overhead is a smaller proportion of runtime
[18:14] <shbrngdo> like your pixels
[18:14] <ali1234> i've written algorithms that takes days to run on CPU
[18:14] <shbrngdo> single core or multi?
[18:15] <ali1234> i7
[18:15] <shbrngdo> ok but is your algorithm single-core ?
[18:15] <ali1234> no
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[18:15] <ali1234> it just has to process several gigabytes of data
[18:15] <ali1234> the CUDA version takes ~3 hours
[18:15] <shbrngdo> I'd be interested in seeing what that was. if you do it a lot I'd suggest scaled integer math, first
[18:16] <ali1234> here's the CUDA kernel https://github.com/ali1234/vhs-teletext/blob/master/teletext/vbi/patterncuda.py#L26
[18:16] <ali1234> all it does is calculate mean squared difference over and over
[18:17] <ali1234> rewriting this in C would have zero effect on performance. you'd save like 3 seconds in the beginning setting up the python interpreter and then after that, nothing
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[18:19] <shbrngdo> if your loops are C code, that's probably true. that's because most of the work appears to be getting done with compiled C code [if I interpret that correctly by just looking at it]
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[18:20] <shbrngdo> but that was my point before, to write the time-critical stuff in C and use python to wrap it
[18:20] <ali1234> it's CUDA code
[18:20] <ali1234> it runs on GPU
[18:20] <shbrngdo> why 'float' instead of 'double' (just curious)
[18:20] <ali1234> the kernel runs (logically) 256 copies of that code in parallel
[18:21] <ali1234> actually i'm not sure
[18:21] <ali1234> i think float is slightly faster on nvidia GPUs
[18:21] <ali1234> at least consumer ones
[18:21] <shbrngdo> there might be data conversion between float/double going on, if that's not the case [which might actually be slower]
[18:21] <shbrngdo> but depending on the range of your data, scaled integers would probably be the fastest
[18:22] <ali1234> GPUs are weird
[18:22] <ali1234> float is faster than int
[18:22] <shbrngdo> I haven't messed with it. I suppose it depends on the architecture, yeah
[18:23] <ali1234> it's something to do with how many threads it can run in parallel
[18:23] <shbrngdo> so you create work units and spawn them. CPU, GPU, shouldn't matter
[18:23] <ali1234> i forgot the details. it's been a while
[18:23] <ali1234> right.
[18:24] <ali1234> but the point is numpy works the same way
[18:24] <ali1234> if you want to add together two arrays in numpy you don't use a for loop. that's slow
[18:24] <shbrngdo> well, I'll never see the benefits of using python at all, other than simplifying the code for certain kinds of things
[18:24] <ali1234> you just add them, and you get a new array. all done in C
[18:24] <shbrngdo> well yeah but I'd probably just code the 'C' side myself, avoiding the lib
[18:25] <shbrngdo> then you hand-tweek it for your application
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[18:25] <shbrngdo> I've been known to write qsort as a function once or twice [with performance tweeks here and there] - one was a multi-thread qsort
[18:26] <shbrngdo> once you've done the pivot point you can create a thread for one side of it, then wait on that thread when the other side's done
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[18:30] <ali1234> the slowest thing in ugly is actually the i2c communication
[18:30] <ali1234> because the i2c library in python doesn't accept arrays
[18:30] <ali1234> so you have to turn the data into a list to transmit it
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[18:30] <ali1234> that's really slow
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[18:31] <ali1234> then the i2c library turns it directly back into a string anyway
[18:31] <ali1234> that library sucks and i should rewrite it
[18:31] <lopta> brb, sandwich!
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[18:38] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - heh yeah, i2c lib. I've still got to take a look at FBSD's implementation of i2c to see what the differences are. I need to write a kernel module for SPI for sure.
[18:38] <shbrngdo> but here's a question: what kind of spi interface would be best? I won't be using '/sys' vars because they don't exist in FBSD. The gpio interface uses ioctl, so I'll go with something similar
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[18:39] <shbrngdo> then there will need to be a config program - say 'spictl' - similar to 'gpioctl' [which is the FBSD program to twiddle with GPIOs]
[18:40] <shbrngdo> by the way, nice trick wtih getting the largest power of 2 divisor for a value: "x & (-x)" essentially
[18:40] <shbrngdo> I had to run that in a loop to see what it does
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[18:40] <shbrngdo> however, tricky code needs a comment, even a single-line comment
[18:41] <shbrngdo> that assumes that someday, "your lib" will be maintained by multiple people
[18:42] <shbrngdo> anyway - I don't want to restrict SPI to using E0 or E1 [or E2 for that matter]. And it's very possible to do just that
[18:42] <shbrngdo> also I'd like to set up a signal to let your program know when the transaction is done. a kernel driver can do this no problem
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[18:43] <shbrngdo> and SPI communicates bi-directionally, so a write also does a read. but not always do you want the read data. so you might want to stack up several transactions while keeping the enable line 'on'
[18:43] <shbrngdo> anyway, someone might already have an implementation that does something *like* this
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[19:11] <gordonDrogon> shbrngdo, the kernel SPI interface works fine.
[19:11] <gordonDrogon> shbrngdo, however it has relatively high latency between calls, but for simple gpio expanders, DAC, etc. it's mostly OK.
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[19:28] <wyvern> I got pishop's 3+ pack that includes heatsinks. Do I need the second heatsink (the small one) for the 3+? It's apparently for the GPU but I thought the GPU was on the same die as the CPU in the 3.
[19:30] <MacGeek> the chip on the underside's the RAM iirc
[19:30] <Bitweasil> Underside chip is the RAM. Heatsink that.
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[19:31] <wyvern> https://www.pishop.us/product/raspberry-pi/pi-accessories/aluminum-heatsink-for-raspberry-pi-b23-2-pack/#tab-description
[19:31] <Bitweasil> The smaller chip on the top is the USB controller and such, which shouldn't get hot - it did on the early Pi1s because of a bit of a design mistake.
[19:31] <Bitweasil> The GPU is on the main SOC in all the boards.
[19:32] <Bitweasil> So one chip on the top, one on the bottom.
[19:32] <wyvern> gotcha
[19:32] <Bitweasil> But that probably won't keep the 3 from throttling... they're hot little chips.
[19:32] <shbrngdo> gordonDrogon - thanks - FYI I (finally) submitted my gpioshutdown port - http://mrp3.com/fbsd_rpi.html [it has a startup script and a man page]
[19:32] <MacGeek> make sure your case has sufficient clearance for the bottom heatsink
[19:33] <shbrngdo> gordonDrogon - so the point here is to make something in FBSD that's consistent with FBSD though, particularly if there are /sys vars involved
[19:33] <MacGeek> my kit came with a coin-like heatsink for the ram chip for that reason
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[19:33] <shbrngdo> /sys vars involved with the Linux implementation, I mean
[19:33] <Bitweasil> Some guy did a review of a nice looking case and heatsink with a lot of thermal data analysis.
[19:33] <Bitweasil> https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2018/03/raspberry-pi-3-thermal-throttling-analysis-moster-heatsink.html
[19:34] <Bitweasil> I have one ordered, I'll see how I like it.
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[19:35] <MacGeek> I've read good things about those porous ceramic heatsinks too
[19:35] <Bitweasil> Link? I haven't seen that before.
[19:36] <MacGeek> https://www.element14.com/community/community/raspberry-pi/raspberrypi_projects/blog/2016/03/03/raspberry-pi-3-cooling-heat-sink-ideas
[19:36] <MacGeek> there are posts showing other styles of ceramic heatsinks in the comments
[19:36] <shbrngdo> this seems to be an ongoing thing - proper heat sinking for RPi 3
[19:37] <shbrngdo> reminds me of 486DX back in the day, supposedly no heat sink needed - HAH!
[19:37] <Bitweasil> ... that was a worthless post. No real data.
[19:37] <Bitweasil> shbrngdo: the ICON case apparently will keep it from throttling at all.
[19:37] <shbrngdo> it's an old post - I remember seeing that page before
[19:38] <Bitweasil> It uses the whole case top as thermal mass/radiative area.
[19:38] <shbrngdo> I'd like to see that work with the pi on stilts - thats normally what I do
[19:38] <MacGeek> the 3B+ is supposed to be much better at avoiding throttling
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[19:38] <MacGeek> the problem with those cases where the whole body is the heatsink is that they'll need to be modified for the 3B+
[19:38] <Bitweasil> Yeah, I saw that. And, agree they won't work on the 3B+. :/
[19:39] <shbrngdo> 1/2 inch nylon 4-40 screws and nuts in the 4 holes
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[19:39] <MacGeek> because the SoC is slightly taller
[19:39] <Bitweasil> But if the B+ can drop the voltage enough to avoid it, it should be OK.
[19:39] <Bitweasil> I'd like to get one, but haven't had the spare coin lately.
[19:39] <kzisme> I finally found the issue with being booted from wifi.....power management on wlan0 was on
[19:39] <Bitweasil> (rather, I don't *need* one, so it would just be for pure messing about)
[19:40] <shbrngdo> wlan power management can bite you, yeah
[19:40] <shauno> woot, new toys day
[19:40] <shbrngdo> don't do performance measurements with power management eneabled
[19:40] <kzisme> shbrngdo: I mean I couldn't even stay connected via SSH with it enabled
[19:40] <kzisme> I thought it was off by default lol
[19:41] <shbrngdo> apparently not. someone "felt" you needed it
[19:41] <kzisme> Now...what can I constantly run on my zerow lol
[19:41] <shbrngdo> I can think of a lot of things that would be nice to run on an RPi, from a NAS to a media station
[19:42] <shbrngdo> plug in a USB external hard drive for a NAS
[19:42] <wyvern> neither of my plastic cases has room for the lower heatsink. Fortunately, I have a dremel...
[19:42] <Stromeko> MacGeek: There are aluminum cases that have heat slugs for the processor, network chip and DRAM. Those would need to be slightly modified for the 3B+ due to the slightly higher chip height, but should otherwise perform nicely. With some thermal interface material these cases keep a plain 3B ~20K above ambient at full load without forced airflow.
[19:42] <shbrngdo> wyvern - there should be air space in those cases for under the board - that's a good amount of heat exchange NOT being used
[19:42] <kzisme> I'm more thinking of software I can run to mine data or something
[19:43] <wyvern> there is air space, just not *quite* high enough.
[19:43] <shbrngdo> yeah, but natural circulation probably needs a bit more for proper air flow
[19:43] <MacGeek> Stromeko: that's what I wrote above :p
[19:44] <shbrngdo> I guess the 'plastic pressers' wanted to save $.002 on materials and made it tinier than it should be
[19:44] <Stromeko> shbrngdo: put a 1mm thermal pad in it and you can pull out all the heat generated on the bottom.
[19:44] * sdoherty (sdoherty@nat/redhat/x-nawfapqeujxhumgy) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:44] <shbrngdo> yeah good point. so why didn't the case have this in the FIRST place I wonder??? [ok cheapest manufacturing]
[19:45] <Stromeko> MacGeek: It's easy to do. I have a TinkerBoard in one of those cases, which I think has a very similar metal lid on the processor.
[19:45] <wyvern> fwiw I have a 3B (not +) in one of flirc's cases and it idles at 40C.
[19:45] <shbrngdo> it's probably good that I didn't fork over money for Pi cases, just put stilts on'em. doesn't work on Pi 1's though, but I only have the one 1
[19:45] <wyvern> the plastic cases I have are the super cheapo bundled ones.
[19:45] <shbrngdo> idles at 40C - that's a lot of heat
[19:45] <shbrngdo> funny thing, the 4-40 screws probably cost less and would cool better
[19:46] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:46] <MacGeek> my pi3 is idling at 45 right now
[19:47] * meinside (uid24933@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qpjbbgoozbgpwteu) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[19:47] <shbrngdo> I think if there were no ethernet on the side, someone would come up with a case that's half as high, and it would have thermal problems
[19:48] * nils_2 (~nils_2@unaffiliated/nils-2/x-2480262) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:48] <shauno> do people really find they're cooking the ram? worrying about the underside seems a bit backwards
[19:49] * asteele_ is now known as asteele
[19:49] <shbrngdo> the surface of the circuit board is a heat radiator. having underside as well as top side air flow will help
[19:49] <MacGeek> Bitweasil: here's the comment with the data: https://www.element14.com/community/community/raspberry-pi/raspberrypi_projects/blog/2016/03/03/raspberry-pi-3-cooling-heat-sink-ideas#comment-80393
[19:49] <MacGeek> apparently his conclusion was that the fan made the most difference
[19:49] <shbrngdo> there's a lot of copper in the circuit board and it conducts heat
[19:50] <shbrngdo> increased air flow - yes
[19:50] <shbrngdo> finding an _ADEQUATE_ fan that does NOT increase the height of the RPi is the biggest problem
[19:50] <shbrngdo> I've seen photos of chip-sized fans
[19:50] <Cypher100> Is there a good way to add a fan to the official raspberry pi case?
[19:50] <GenteelBen> What's the new Pi called? RPi 3B+?
[19:51] <GenteelBen> They need to start naming their products properly.
[19:51] * Encrypt (~Encrypt@2a01cb0401d17200494f458cf3773cea.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Quit: Quit)
[19:51] <GenteelBen> How about RPi 3.1??????????????????????????
[19:51] <Stromeko> shbrngdo: Increasing the effective area for heat dissipation is a lot more effective than increasing airflow.
[19:51] <MacGeek> https://www.element14.com/community/community/raspberry-pi/raspberrypi_projects/blog/2016/03/13/raspberry-pi-temperature-and-cooling-testing-part-2-with-hat-tests with a plate simulating a HAT
[19:51] * IT_Sean slaps GenteelBen
[19:51] * shbrngdo calls it 'Eric'
[19:51] <gordonDrogon> shbrngdo, can't fbsd have a kernel SPI driver then? everything's a file ...
[19:51] <shauno> eh, it's inline with the b > b+
[19:52] <shbrngdo> gordonDrogon - yes - and that's what I'm considering, as a char driver (basically) but no read/write method. Problem is, when you read bytes you need to write bytes, and when you write bytes, you also read bytes
[19:52] <MacGeek> I've seen some people also propose using heat pipes
[19:52] <shbrngdo> gordonDrogon - if I pass a read/write buffer with an IOCTL, then this happens automatically
[19:52] <shbrngdo> however, there is no read/write method for a character device that I'm aware of
[19:52] <MacGeek> like these: https://amecthermasol.co.uk/product/flat-cool-pipes/flat-cool-pipes/mhp-series
[19:53] <gordonDrogon> shbrngdo, it's an ioctl in Linux that does the actual work.
[19:53] <shauno> for some reason I thought the sensehat would fit in the 'official' case. bummer
[19:53] <shbrngdo> I'll have a closer look at it. thanks
[19:53] <gordonDrogon> you pass it a buffer which gets clocked out and overwritten as it clocks in.
[19:53] <shbrngdo> exactly - that's what I'm thinking of. nice to know, I thought it was using /sys vars
[19:53] <gordonDrogon> nothing on the Pi uses /sys for gpio.
[19:53] <gordonDrogon> well - some old stuff..
[19:54] <wyvern> you can gpio via sysfs; it's just deprecated
[19:54] <gordonDrogon> and the "interrupts", but other than that...
[19:54] <shbrngdo> did not know it was deprecated now. that's interesting to know. what method is "official" now other than the /dev/mem method wiringPi uses?
[19:54] <gordonDrogon> I'm told that sysfs is the way you're "supposed" to do gpio under Linux, however, ... meh ...
[19:54] <shbrngdo> yes
[19:54] <shbrngdo> that's what I was under the impression of
[19:55] <gordonDrogon> the foundation wrote a /dev/gpiomem that's a user-level interface.
[19:55] <wyvern> See https://github.com/rust-embedded/rust-sysfs-gpio/issues/38 for deprecation info.
[19:55] <wyvern> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76j3TIqTPTI&feature=youtu.be explains the new way
[19:55] * Reedy (~quassel@wikimedia/pdpc.active.reedy) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[19:55] <shbrngdo> video is probably a bad idea - I'll check docs, though
[19:55] <gordonDrogon> however it doesn't map everything - in particular some of the clock registers, so PWM via it doesn't work.
[19:55] <Stromeko> MacGeek: I don't think they quite understand how heat pipes work. They are optimised to transport a lot of heat, not to produce the lowest temperature difference.
[19:56] * davr0s (~textual@host86-157-66-67.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[19:56] <gordonDrogon> shbrngdo, so there is /dev/ devices for I2C and SPI.
[19:56] <wyvern> While we're on Linux APIs -- is there a way to read from an ADC via SPI with Linux's built-in stuff that does reasonably high frequency (100khz) and won't drop samples when my process is scheduled off the cpu?
[19:57] <gordonDrogon> wyvern, not that fast - too much latency going via the kernel.
[19:57] <gordonDrogon> about 20K samples / sec is the limit.
[19:57] <wyvern> I see. The per-clk overhead is too high?
[19:57] <ali1234> wyvern: you need iio for that
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[19:57] <ali1234> it's in kernel
[19:57] <wyvern> Bummer. Well, back to figuring out how to program the DMA then.
[19:57] <gordonDrogon> no - it's calling the kernel and return to userland.
[19:57] <ali1234> may or may not have a driver for your adc
[19:57] <wyvern> Is there not a way to have the kernel buffer samples for me?
[19:57] <ali1234> yes, iio :)
[19:57] <gordonDrogon> write a kernel module to do it.
[19:57] <ali1234> that's it's one job
[19:58] <wyvern> ali1234: looking that up, thanks.
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[19:58] <gordonDrogon> you might also want to look at the pigpio library.
[19:58] <wyvern> yeah I've been looking at how pigpio does its thing. Its API isn't a great fit for what I'm doing, but it shows how to do some of what the DMA engine can do
[19:59] <wyvern> I have a WIP library to manipulate the DMA channels in a (relatively) safe way at https://bitbucket.org/marshallpierce/bcm283x/src/master/ if you're interested in doing that kind of thing in Rust.
[19:59] <shbrngdo> strangely I looked at the gpio.h link and didn't see anything that looked like a GPIO for setting a pin's state or config...
[19:59] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-E9F8-8D15-5032-2903.dyn6.twc.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:01] <gordonDrogon> pinMode (x, thing) ; ;-)
[20:01] <wyvern> ali1234: do you have any suggested docs for working with iio?
[20:01] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-E9F8-8D15-5032-2903.dyn6.twc.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:02] <ali1234> wyvern: no, sorry
[20:03] <ali1234> only what's on google
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[20:04] * Demannu (~demannu@unaffiliated/demannu) Quit (K-Lined)
[20:04] * divx118 (~divx118@D93F170F.cm-20.dynamic.ziggo.nl) Quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
[20:04] <GenteelBen> LG have released WebOS for the RPi.
[20:04] <GenteelBen> Anybody tried it? https://fossbytes.com/lg-webos-open-source-edition-released/
[20:05] <ali1234> did someone say weaboo?
[20:05] * wuzamarine (~kvirc@c-68-33-78-133.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:05] <shauno> possibly off-topic, but does anyone find bash completion for dd on debian is broken?
[20:05] <ali1234> shauno: i think that is intentional to make sure you actually know what you are doing
[20:07] <shauno> really? whoever decided that needs to sit next to me so I can slap them every time tab causes more problems than it solves
[20:07] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-E9F8-8D15-5032-2903.dyn6.twc.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:09] <shauno> that right up there next to bsd & gnu refusing to agree on the case of bs=4m/4M
[20:09] * NavyBear-Pi (~TheNavyBe@unaffiliated/thenavybear) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:09] <GenteelBen> WeeabOS
[20:10] <GenteelBen> The FOSS community's answer to ChadOS.
[20:10] * r0Oter is now known as r00ter
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[20:13] <shauno> hm. sticking wpa_supplicant in /boot doesn't bring my wifi up anymore
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[20:21] * donalsd (af65556b@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[20:21] <donalsd> Hello guys, anyone here?
[20:23] * Singmyr (~singmyr@ has joined #raspberrypi
[20:23] <shbrngdo> in spurts from what I've seen, or lurking randomly like me
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[20:24] <donalsd> Can anyone help me out with connecting my raspberry pi with arduino over bluetooth?
[20:24] * shbrngdo never noticed bs=4m vs 4M before
[20:25] * timofonic (~timofonic@unaffiliated/timofonic) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[20:26] <shbrngdo> donaldsd - what kind of bluetooth and what version of OS - this actually makes a difference. bluez on the newer Raspbian is *BROKEN* for "classic" bluetooth (which is why I like using the older one, other than the lack of systemd in the older one)
[20:26] <Bitweasil> donalsd: what of it? The Arduino doesn't come stock with Bluetooth, but you should be able to find instructions to pair with whatever serial module you have installed and treat it as a virtual serial port.
[20:26] <shauno> bsd & mac use bs=4m. which is obviously wrong because it'd be a millibyte, but regardless. all it'd take would be for one of them to admit it's not ambiguous, and we'd be set
[20:26] * timofonic (~timofonic@unaffiliated/timofonic) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:26] <shbrngdo> I'm assuming donaldsd has a BT module for the Arduino, maybe an RN-42 breakout [right?]
[20:26] <donalsd> Bitweasil: I have an HC-05 that I can connect with.
[20:26] <Bitweasil> ... yeah, fair, assuming BT isn't broken for that use case. I really only do USB to serial, haven't found a need for BT serial.
[20:27] <shbrngdo> I do BT serial a lot.
[20:27] <shbrngdo> ok what BT adaptor are you using on the RPi
[20:27] <Bitweasil> That's a 3.3V module, are you using level converters or a 3.3V Arduino?
[20:27] <donalsd> Well, I am making a raspberry pi based tablet, which has this gui where you can click to turn on and off the lights.
[20:27] <shbrngdo> ah good point
[20:28] <donalsd> So, when you go back to sleep, and you are far from the switch and you are lazy to get up. You click it and you turn off the lights.
[20:28] <shbrngdo> ok waitaminute - you are using bluetooth to communicate to an arduino that's part of the same thingy?
[20:28] <donalsd> shbrngdo: I guess the default one RPi comes with?
[20:28] <shbrngdo> RPI 3 then?
[20:28] <donalsd> Yes.
[20:28] <Bitweasil> Presumably, an Arduino on the light switch side of things?
[20:28] <shbrngdo> I haven't worked with that one. maybe bluez isn't pooched for that
[20:28] <donalsd> Yes.
[20:29] <shbrngdo> I strongly suggest NOT using BT for comms between arduino and the RPi. serial through level converter, I2C, or even SPI would be better
[20:29] <shbrngdo> but yeah the level converter is important
[20:29] <shbrngdo> for one, the antennae will be too close, and the radios will be yelling at each other
[20:29] <donalsd> With bluez I had to send data in the terminal. It did work for me a bit. I could directly write to /dev/rfcomm0, but my application is a gui where you let the user click buttons.
[20:30] <shbrngdo> right and the gui couldn't open up the serial comms for some reason? I have a comms application in github that might give you hints, if you want the URL
[20:30] <shbrngdo> it's not simple, though
[20:30] <donalsd> Bitweasil: Yes, so the user just clicks the buttons to turn off the lights.
[20:31] * ConkyAxis (~ConkyAxis@cpc82865-enfi22-2-0-cust482.20-2.cable.virginm.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:31] <shbrngdo> might I suggest using GPIO pins?
[20:31] <Bitweasil> shbrngdo: I think the point is that the Pi is mobile, and the Arduino is fixed in location.
[20:31] * DammitJim (~DammitJim@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[20:31] <Bitweasil> Remote control over BT.
[20:31] * borkr (~borkr@static130-244.mimer.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:31] * widmo (~widmo@unaffiliated/widmo) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:31] <shbrngdo> Oh, I get it...
[20:31] <donalsd> shbrngdo: It requires sudo access, and that is a tiny bit of problem.
[20:31] <donalsd> Bitweasil: Yes.
[20:32] <shbrngdo> normally the serial IO can be done without sudo, but you have to be part of the 'operator' group [as I recall]
[20:32] * DeadTOm (~deadtom@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe58:44d0) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:32] <Bitweasil> Personally, I'd just use a NRF24L01 radio pair and skip the whole bluetooth absurdity.
[20:32] <donalsd> shbrngdo: I would love to get some hints.
[20:32] <Bitweasil> Since BT is a horror show.
[20:32] <Bitweasil> Especially on Linux.
[20:32] * codestorm (~codestorm@cpe-76-94-68-62.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:32] <shbrngdo> Bitweasil - can be, yes. I came up with some nice hacks for a customer project, though. it has to associate with a bluetooth device and test a piece of equipment
[20:32] <shbrngdo> but it doesn't work with the later raspbian's bluez
[20:33] <Bitweasil> But for a wide open project design, there's no reason to use BT for this particular case.
[20:33] * widmo (~widmo@unaffiliated/widmo) Quit (Client Quit)
[20:33] <shbrngdo> the later raspbian's bluez actually has page faults, last I tested it. I submitted the bug more than 2 years ago to Debian.
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[20:33] <donalsd> shbrngdo: If I use GPIO then I will need to get some module.
[20:33] <shauno> okay, I give up. what on earth have they done to wifi in the 03-13 release?
[20:33] <shbrngdo> yeah I was thinking that the arduino was part of the tablet
[20:33] <Bitweasil> donalsd: yes, but you can design a system that's more reliable.
[20:34] <donalsd> Aaaand, I don't have enough time for that. I need to submit the project very soon.
[20:34] * DeadTOm (~deadtom@2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe58:44d0) has left #raspberrypi
[20:34] <donalsd> Bluetooth sucks, I know. But I don't have an alternative at hand right now.
[20:34] <shbrngdo> since I don't have a working script for the newer Raspbian, I might not be able to help you
[20:34] <donalsd> shbrngdo: Ah, thanks. No worries.
[20:34] <shbrngdo> let me make an older script available for you, a starting point
[20:35] <donalsd> That would be great!
[20:36] <donalsd> Bitweasil: I plan on making a better system this summer, but I have to finish this project in 2 days and show a working demo in an expo.
[20:36] <donalsd> So... I don't really have many choices.
[20:36] <Bitweasil> Ah. Best of luck, then.
[20:37] <donalsd> Does pySerial work with bluetooth?
[20:37] <shbrngdo> this works in older Raspbian. may fail in newer raspbian. https://pastebin.com/HVkaRdeJ
[20:37] * ravustaja (~ravustaja@37-136-63-166.rev.dnainternet.fi) Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[20:37] <shbrngdo> donaldsd - pyserial will work after you've associated and created an rfcomm device
[20:37] * ravustaja (~ravustaja@37-136-63-166.rev.dnainternet.fi) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:37] <shbrngdo> also this script I gave you waits for a CTRL+C to disconnect, so you'll need to background it
[20:38] <donalsd> shbrngdo: I guess I can create an rfcomm device on booth.
[20:38] <donalsd> boot*
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[20:39] <donalsd> Can you point me to a resource that shows how to work with pyserial over bluetooth?
[20:41] <shbrngdo> once it's rfcomm0 it's another serial device, so any example should work
[20:42] <shbrngdo> oh one more thing that pastebin link expires in les than an hour
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[20:44] <waveform> donalsd, I can point you to something that does serial over bluetooth, but with sockets instead of pyserial (it's not the easiest thing as there's some dbus fun to talk to bluez too, but it works reliably with raspbian jessie and stretch)
[20:44] <shbrngdo> I'd be interested in seeing that example, just so I'll know about it [even if it DOES use *shudder* dbus]
[20:45] <donalsd> waveform: Sure thing, thanks!
[20:45] <waveform> okay - think it's in Martin O'Hanlon's github - just a sec...
[20:45] <waveform> yup, here we go: https://github.com/martinohanlon/bluedot
[20:45] <shbrngdo> dbus keeps wanting to automount my SD cards for RPi when I use a USB SD card thingy on a PC, even when I EXPLICITLY tell it *NOT* to do that
[20:46] <waveform> it's something we use in various teaching scenarios as it makes a great remote for robots and other things, and the APIs simple enough for total beginners
[20:46] <waveform> anyway, the interesting bits are:
[20:46] <shbrngdo> invariably I'll have a dialog box saying "could not mount" after I unplug the SD card [after unmounting it to where I want it mounted]
[20:46] <waveform> bluedot/utils.py - contains all the dbus stuff to initialize the adapter via bluez, but don't start there
[20:46] <waveform> bluedot/btcomm.py - contains the sockets stuff - start here and then work down to util
[20:46] <waveform> s
[20:47] * JasonCL (~JasonCL@cpe-2606-A000-4E4D-A300-E9F8-8D15-5032-2903.dyn6.twc.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[20:47] <shbrngdo> dbus is almost as bad as ".Net" - *shudder* *choke* *choke* *cough* - where's a bucket...
[20:48] <shbrngdo> nice example code, though, thanks. I 'starred' the repo
[20:49] <gordonDrogon> sure it's dbus and not some udev rules or filemangler?
[20:49] <waveform> you may have to forgive Martin's use of threads in some places - I've been meaning to do another PR on that for a while :)
[20:49] <donalsd> waveform: Thanks!
[20:49] <waveform> gordonDrogon, erm good question - I've only skimmed that bit of the code so I'm not 100% certain but here's a line example: https://github.com/martinohanlon/BlueDot/blob/master/bluedot/utils.py#L20
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[20:50] <gordonDrogon> er, I was meaning that to shbrngdo about automounting sd card
[20:50] <waveform> ah, sorry!
[20:51] <gordonDrogon> I've never used bluetooth. one day I might look at it. (ok, almost never, I have a bt headset that talks to my phone, but really, that's all I've ever used bt for in my life!)
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[20:52] <shbrngdo> gordonDrogon - yep, pretty sure - it has a GUI dialog generated by dbus or one of its "helpers", which (fortunately) is only a compatibility thing in FreeBSD
[20:52] <shbrngdo> there's dbus and one other thing that create trouble. when you plug in a device, I don't want it automounted. It can be a camera, a USB drive, or (in this case) an SD card. If I want it mounted I'll type 'mount' myself.
[20:53] <shbrngdo> for all dbus knows, I'm going to access it from a VM, and need the 'ugen' device, and not what it thinks I want
[20:53] <shbrngdo> so I turned everything "auto" off. not good enough, it seems.
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[20:54] <shbrngdo> but i suppose in Linux, on the RPi, it may be the way to go. dbus _WAS_ designed for GUI Linux for gnome
[20:55] <shbrngdo> in my case I use console mode and scripts to drive connecting to a specific MAC address, after discovering what it is.
[20:55] <ali1234> dbus isn't what mount disks
[20:55] <ali1234> udisks does that
[20:55] <shbrngdo> dbus is connected to "all of that". no 'udisks' on FreeBSD
[20:55] <ali1234> dbus is just an RPC system
[20:56] <ali1234> all it does is pass messages
[20:57] <shbrngdo> there is a program called 'dbus-launch' that seems to be (at least partially) responsible for some of my headaches with dbus
[20:57] <shbrngdo> either that or dbus-daemon, or both
[20:59] <shbrngdo> I first ran into this when I couldn't unmount something NOT mounted to either /media/something or /mnt without using '-f'. I found it was dbus grabbing it.
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[21:04] <DrJ> are raspberry pi 3 cases compatible with the new B+?
[21:04] * EnrgySmth (d8eba101@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit ()
[21:04] <Bitweasil> Anything that relies on tight spacing for a heatsink is probably not, but most generic cases likely are.
[21:06] <DrJ> I guess I'll take my chances :)
[21:07] <DrJ> got a B+ coming thursday :)
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[21:07] <shbrngdo> I think it's got the same shape and board pattern for USB ethernet and holes
[21:07] <shbrngdo> or at least seems to
[21:07] <DrJ> so the CPU is just taller or something?
[21:07] <shbrngdo> hotter
[21:07] <Bitweasil> The CPU has a heat spreader on it.
[21:07] <Bitweasil> Which changes the Z height.
[21:08] <binaryhermit> isn't the cpu on the top of the board?
[21:08] <shbrngdo> yeah depending on the case that could make a difference
[21:08] <shbrngdo> hopefully NONE of them extends that low over the CPU though
[21:08] <waveform> the CPU is *barely* taller but there's other changes that can matter. For example, the new POE pins mean the pimoroni pibow coupe cases for the 3 won't fit the 3+
[21:08] <Bitweasil> For most cases, it won't matter, but something like the ICON will matter.
[21:08] <Bitweasil> shbrngdo: some of the good cases use the case as the heatsink.
[21:09] <shbrngdo> ok - that makes sense - so dremel it then like someone already suggested
[21:09] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - it's hald as well as dbus that was causing my headaches. I double-checked. I knew dbus was connected, but forgot about hald
[21:09] <waveform> frankly, I'm not convinced a heatsink is going to be necessary on the 3+ - mine's been compiling for nearly two days at this point and the CPU's still sitting nicely at 1.4Ghz (not throttled at all)
[21:09] <Bitweasil> Sorry, flirc case.
[21:09] * z0 (~zzz@2001:8a0:ca05:d701:a598:e4a5:f6d2:5958) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:09] <ali1234> yeah hald is dead on linux
[21:10] <Bitweasil> waveform: are you looking at the CPU governor or the vc_gen_cmd get_temp ?
[21:10] <waveform> which is in marked difference to the 3 which hit the thermal throttle within a few minutes of trying this
[21:10] <ali1234> it's been replaced at least two times
[21:10] <Bitweasil> Yeah, the stock Pi3 throttles bad. :/
[21:10] * zesterer (~zesterer@cpc138506-newt42-2-0-cust207.19-3.cable.virginm.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[21:10] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - there are still things that need it, unfortunately. I'll have to look into removing it once and for all.
[21:10] <katnip> <3 my pi
[21:10] <waveform> Bitweasil, both: CPU governor is reporting 1.4Ghz and vcgencmd measure_temp is reporting ... just a sec ... 65C
[21:10] <binaryhermit> is the official rpi case compatible probably?
[21:10] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - thing is I'm not running Linux, and mate desktop might need its services for some reason
[21:11] * jancoow (~jancoow@ Quit (Quit: jancoow)
[21:11] <waveform> and that's with no heatsink, and the thing wrapped in a few layers of perspex (the newer pimoroni pibow case)
[21:11] <Bitweasil> Ok, the CPU governor isn't going to show changes.
[21:11] <Bitweasil> What's 'vcgencmd measure_clock arm' show?
[21:11] <waveform> the interesting difference is the *whole board* is quite warm to the touch which is very different to the 3
[21:11] <ali1234> i know. bsd still needs hald because the replacements are linux only
[21:11] <shbrngdo> and that's exactly it, right there.
[21:11] <waveform> Bitweasil, ahh - that's showing 1.2Ghz so it is indeed throttled
[21:11] <Bitweasil> But, yes, I believe they did use the whole board as thermal mass.
[21:11] <waveform> (though nothing tlike the 3)
[21:12] <Bitweasil> Sure. But that's the proper way to measure it on the 3 series.
[21:12] <Bitweasil> The CPU governor tells the firmware what it would /like/ but the firmware handles the clocks on the 3 series.
[21:12] <waveform> interesting - thanks
[21:12] <Bitweasil> Now, sitting at 1.2 without a heatsink and a compile job going on is damned impressive.
[21:12] <shbrngdo> ack
[21:12] <Bitweasil> waveform: https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2018/03/raspberry-pi-3-thermal-throttling-analysis-moster-heatsink.html <-- I didn't know about it until I read that post.
[21:13] <Bitweasil> A lot of the internet still shows the CPU governor as evidence it's not throttling.
[21:13] <waveform> yeah - it's *much* faster than the 3, simply by virtue of not throttling so damned much :)
[21:13] <Bitweasil> Well, put a good heatsink on the 3 and it doesn't throttle much.
[21:13] <Bitweasil> The FLIR cases are good for that.
[21:13] <Bitweasil> FLIRC?
[21:14] * inc0gn1t0 (uid278945@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pcmenlzhgleyhvpp) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[21:14] <waveform> this little thing's now chewed through ... <counts> ... 26 builds of opencv in a day
[21:14] <shbrngdo> at some point someone's gonna do a heat pipe for RPi 3
[21:14] <shbrngdo> question is, where could you mount the external fins?
[21:15] <shbrngdo> I suppose an aluminum ceramic could be used to make it. A friend of mine did some thermal sensors with such a material, which mixed like epoxy
[21:15] <Bitweasil> https://steemit.com/flirc/@cryptos/review-flirc-raspberry-pi-case-the-best-rpi-2-3-case-out-there shows the underside of that case top.
[21:15] <Bitweasil> Personally, I think a peltier is the way to go. ;)
[21:15] <shbrngdo> no kill like 'overkill'
[21:15] <shbrngdo> peltier with a heat pipe and superfan
[21:16] <shbrngdo> sounds like a jet engine when you power it up
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[21:16] <Bitweasil> https://store.schlockmercenary.com/v/vspfiles/photos/P-R37-2.jpg
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[21:17] <shbrngdo> heh - I haven't added anything to my demotivational collection in some time. thanks
[21:18] <waveform> more interesting thermal stuff on the 3+: https://freelance.halfacree.co.uk/2018/03/raspberry-pi-3-b-plus-performance-benchmarks/ (nice thermal shot of the board shows how well the heat is spread)
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[21:20] <Bitweasil> Oh, I didn't realize it had more metal in the board. Nice!
[21:20] * H4ndy is now known as h4ndy
[21:20] <waveform> yup - I've noticed it feels *slightly* heavier than the 3 - it's not much, but it is noticeable if you pick each up
[21:21] <shbrngdo> inner ground planes can conduct heat, too
[21:21] * shbrngdo has used that to advantage before
[21:21] <waveform> indeed - the USB ports on mine are currently quite toasty (nice hand warmer temperature :)
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[21:22] <shbrngdo> thermal gradient of typical circuit board material is not bad. an inner ground plane will distribute the heat across the entire board
[21:22] <shbrngdo> you can 'heat sink' voltage regulators, CPUs, support stuff, and USB thingies as well
[21:23] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[21:23] <Bitweasil> Nice. I may have to pick one up.
[21:23] <shbrngdo> you have to be careful with inner planes, though. I prefer having the ground planes on the outer layers
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[21:24] <Bitweasil> Personally, I prefer flying planes.
[21:24] <Bitweasil> Grounded planes are no fun. :p
[21:25] <shbrngdo> PUNishment
[21:26] <Stromeko> Bitweasil: That FLIRC case seems to have a plastic base. The case I was talking about is all aluminum and keeps the temperatures way below 50°C when placed on the desk.
[21:26] <Stromeko> (with thermal interface material added to the bottom of the board).
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[21:29] <shbrngdo> anyway because of the BGA the Pi probably uses a 6 layer board, but may use a 4 layer board. having one layer devoted to ground would make routing hard
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[21:30] <shbrngdo> 6 layer you could probably do that, more or less, devote one layer to ground and power, and the large amount of copper would make the heat dissipate really nice
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[21:30] <shbrngdo> and you wouldn't see it because it would be on an inner layer
[21:31] <shbrngdo> [but the board would be heavier, yeah]
[21:32] <shbrngdo> anyway, 3+ is supposed to run cooler. I bet they engineered stuff "like that" into it. Same price, should be worth it.
[21:33] <Stromeko> shbrngdo: I have a bunch of voltage regulator boards from old Pentium servers that I keep just to show folks how heavy these are (due to the extra thick inner copper layers). They're about three times as heavy as you expect them to be based on the unassuming looks (I removed the heatsinks).
[21:34] * pavlushka (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) Quit (Quit: See you on the other side)
[21:34] <Stromeko> shbrngdo: They actually said it takes substantially more power, at least when you run it at 1.4GHz.
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[21:36] <lopta> I do like my Raspberry Pi.
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[21:43] <GenteelBen> League of Part-Time Apiarists?
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[21:49] <Bitweasil> lopta: it's certainly a nice unit, especially once you get rid of the SD card limitations.
[21:49] <lopta> I'm currently running mine on a Class 10 SDHC card. I might plug in a hard disk, too.
[21:50] * donalsd (af65556b@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[21:50] <Bitweasil> What filesystem?
[21:50] <Bitweasil> Saw a guy using btrfs with compression on a USB SSD, apparently it works quite well.
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[21:51] <lopta> Bitweasil: ffsv2
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[21:57] <iKarith> Bitweasil: I'm not all that impressed with btrfs personally and Oracle … well I guess they're an RPF partner. They're not MY partner however.
[21:58] <iKarith> My big wishlists for RPi4 are significantly more RAM and faster storage.
[21:58] <Stromeko> iKarith: You're not mixing up btrfs and ZFS, do you?
[21:59] <Bitweasil> iKarith: but it supports compression.
[21:59] <Bitweasil> Context: https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2018/03/project-pi3desk-building-awesome-pi3.html
[21:59] <iKarith> Stromeko: I'm not. Neither are impressive for speed.
[21:59] <iKarith> Stromeko: btrfs is faster than zfs
[21:59] <Bitweasil> But, apparently, compression + a choked disk interface is worth the tradeoffs.
[21:59] <Bitweasil> The Pi3 can't push more than about 30MB/s over USB.
[21:59] <Bitweasil> So filesystem speed is less of a factor...
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[22:00] <iKarith> Bitweasil: Compression might increse throughput in that case, yeah.
[22:00] <Bitweasil> And in the context of a Pi3, throughput /sucks/.
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[22:06] <Encrypt> iKarith | My big wishlists for RPi4 are significantly more RAM and faster storage // At some point you may consider buying a micro ITX board and an x64 CPU...
[22:06] <Encrypt> Just sayin' :P
[22:07] <Encrypt> Mini* ITX
[22:07] <ali1234> you can get mITX with integrated CPU for like £100
[22:08] <ali1234> runs off an external DC pack and uses barely more power than a pi
[22:08] <ali1234> but an order of magnitude faster
[22:08] <mfa298> wishlists for the Pi4 are probably pretty pointless at this point in time. Chances are the big work on the SoC is well in progress by now.
[22:09] <Bitweasil> Like a Minnowboard?
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[22:10] <ali1234> nah, way better than that
[22:11] <ali1234> like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/GIGABYTE-Celeron-N3150N-Mini-ITX-Motherboard/dp/B01ALSQA2W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521580285&sr=8-1&keywords=mini+itx+integrated+cpu
[22:12] <lopta> Oh! I was thinking about ARM mITX boards this morning.
[22:12] <lopta> I think Simtec used to do mATX and eventually mITX boards. No idea whether they're still around though.
[22:12] <iKarith> Encrypt: Not really. mITX requires a LOT MORE RAM to feed an x86 doing the same thing.
[22:13] <iKarith> 2-4 GB is plenty for ARM
[22:14] <iKarith> Unless you're trying to run modern DEs (and people are), 1GB is plenty.
[22:14] <Encrypt> i3 <3
[22:14] <Encrypt> I'm using my Pi as a server
[22:14] <iKarith> It's not plenty for four cores actually working seriously.
[22:14] <Encrypt> I'm only consuming 100 MB of RAM
[22:15] <iKarith> which DEs don't really need four cores
[22:15] <ali1234> it doesn't matter though because the mITX board has enough SATA bandwidth that swap is actually practical
[22:15] <Encrypt> With asterisk, filebrowser, nginx, openvpn...
[22:15] <ali1234> not that you need more than 4GB
[22:15] <Encrypt> Or I think the Banana Pi as a SATA port
[22:15] <ali1234> it has an on board USB to SATA chip
[22:15] <Encrypt> Or orange Pi, I don't remember (never used any of them)
[22:15] <ali1234> it it's rubbish
[22:16] <Encrypt> Oh, USB to SATA
[22:16] <Encrypt> It kills the game :P
[22:16] <iKarith> Encrypt: The problem with most Pi competitors is Mali GPUs.
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[22:16] <iKarith> They blow.
[22:17] <iKarith> Everyone wants all these faster CPUs for their retropie boxes and whatnot, but they all have Mali GPUs and therefore suck so hard they're not worth the gains.
[22:17] <lopta> iKarith: Blackbox ;-)
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[22:22] <ShapeShifter499> hi
[22:22] <ShapeShifter499> is the power port connected to OTG in any way?
[22:22] <lopta> Hello ShapeShifter499
[22:22] <lopta> ShapeShifter499: On a Pi Zero?
[22:23] <ShapeShifter499> I damaged the OTG port though soldering on my Pi Zero, it still boots but only the power connector and hdmi remain
[22:23] <lopta> On the up-side, at least you only ruined a $5 computer.
[22:23] <Encrypt> Eh eh, yeah :D
[22:24] <ShapeShifter499> I know of the gadget mode and I'm wondering if that can be routed through the power port
[22:24] <Encrypt> Hopefully
[22:24] <ShapeShifter499> Well I plan on using this if nothing else remains https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/share-internet-to-the-raspberry-pi-zero/
[22:24] <iKarith> Oh, that's the other thing… If power requirements increase even a little on the RPi4, it's time to move to USB-C.
[22:25] <lopta> BANANA!
[22:25] <ShapeShifter499> So the power adapter is ONLY for power?
[22:25] * timofonic (~timofonic@unaffiliated/timofonic) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[22:25] <iKarith> The micro-USB connector is really pushing more current than it really ought to already.
[22:25] <Encrypt> Yes
[22:25] <Encrypt> ShapeShifter499, The D+ / D- aren't wired
[22:25] <ShapeShifter499> Encrypt: ah
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[22:25] <ShapeShifter499> damn
[22:26] <ShapeShifter499> Encrypt: on to the internet over gpio then
[22:26] <iKarith> ShapeShifter499: There exist pogo pin boards that have hubs on them
[22:26] <iKarith> ShapeShifter499: Granted they cost more than your Pi Zero ;)
[22:27] <ShapeShifter499> iKarith: I wanted to connect this into a cluster
[22:27] <Encrypt> ShapeShifter499, On the top left hand side: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/schematics/Raspberry-Pi-Zero-V1.3-Schematics.pdf
[22:27] <ShapeShifter499> I just wired the GPIO pin serials between two pis
[22:27] <iKarith> Call it a $10 soldering mistake then
[22:27] <ali1234> how did you break it?
[22:27] <ShapeShifter499> iKarith: huh?
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[22:28] <ShapeShifter499> no I soldered the RX and TX to the appropriate RX and TX of another board
[22:28] <ShapeShifter499> iKarith: https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/share-internet-to-the-raspberry-pi-zero/ this is what I'll be using to share internet
[22:29] <ShapeShifter499> ali1234: don't ask, stupid soldering
[22:29] <ShapeShifter499> lol
[22:29] <Bitweasil> iKarith: yeah, the Pi power consumption is really pushing it on the micro USB port. You can power it through the 5V pins, at least...
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[22:29] <Bitweasil> I mean, you lose some protections, but it works.
[22:29] <lopta> I miss BANANA plugs.
[22:29] <Bitweasil> USB-C would certainly fix it.
[22:29] <iKarith> ShapeShifter499: neat. How'd you break your USB port doing that?
[22:29] <Bitweasil> lopta: I have a ton of them.
[22:30] <lopta> Bitweasil++
[22:30] <iKarith> Bitweasil: My real source of sadness lately is that I can't find a RTC that fits cases like the FLIRC. :(
[22:30] <ShapeShifter499> iKarith: no I broke the Pi first by trying to solder to the pads on the back side of the OTG port. Now I'm trying to salvage it by using the GPIO pins for the internet
[22:31] <Bitweasil> iKarith: can't help you there. :( Just use a USB RTC?
[22:31] <iKarith> Bitweasil: Possibly.
[22:31] <iKarith> ShapeShifter499: Oh, have fun with that!
[22:32] <iKarith> ShapeShifter499: If it fails though, the nice thing about the Zero is it's cheap :)
[22:32] <ShapeShifter499> are there sellers with low shipping cost?
[22:32] <ShapeShifter499> The shipping cost kind of ruins that
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[22:35] <ShapeShifter499> This would be to the California, USA
[22:35] <iKarith> I got my last Zero at a MicroCenter
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[22:36] <ShapeShifter499> no microcenters near me
[22:36] <iKarith> Admittedly I don't live near one of those, but I was traveling at the time
[22:36] <iKarith> Amazon doesn't currently have any just the board please offerings.
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[22:37] <ShapeShifter499> I'm surprised that frys doesn't carry all the pis
[22:37] <bioa10> Hello
[22:37] <bioa10> I need some help
[22:38] <bioa10> So I have a USB microphone that I got for the Pi, but when I use it, it has a ton of static
[22:38] <iKarith> bioa10: You're working on building interplanetary spacecraft and figured that if NASA can do a moon lander on the equivalent of an Apple IIe you should be able to hit Mars with a Pi Zero?
[22:39] <iKarith> oh, USB audio.
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[22:39] <bioa10> lol
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[22:39] <iKarith> Well you hadn't said what you were doing, so I had to try and read your mind.
[22:40] <iKarith> bioa10: Does the USB mic work well on a desktop machine?
[22:40] <bioa10> Sorry, was typing it up while paying attention to my machine learning class
[22:40] <ShapeShifter499> iKarith: not a half bad idea actually
[22:40] <ShapeShifter499> xD
[22:40] <bioa10> Yes, it works fine on my laptop
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[22:40] <bioa10> running windows
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[22:40] <iKarith> what's the sampling rate?
[22:41] <lopta> 8 kHz u-Law :-)
[22:41] <bioa10> I'm not sure, I used this command "arecord -D plughw:1,0 test.wav"
[22:41] <iKarith> lopta: well there's your problem
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[22:42] <lopta> iKarith: Hey, it's compact! :-)
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[22:42] * iKarith bzip2s lopta
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[22:43] <bioa10> I'm following a guide and it said to use "arecord -D plughw:1,0 test.wav" to test the mic, and when I did, it was pretty bad
[22:44] <iKarith> bioa10: is the sound all static?
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[22:44] <bioa10> I think when I used my webcam mic before, it worked fine
[22:44] <iKarith> or is there audio in there?
[22:45] <bioa10> There is the sound I recorded also, but there is tons of static in the blank space and over the voice
[22:46] <iKarith> I wonder if hte power out of your USB power supply is clean?
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[22:46] <bioa10> ?
[22:46] <iKarith> People don't generally find that the Pi is known for static
[22:46] <iKarith> but the mic that close to the Pi might pick up stray electronic noise
[22:47] <bioa10> I googled it, and someone else said they had a similar problem but people just suggested a sound card
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[22:47] <iKarith> If you're using a cheap phone charger, that might be a problem. It could also be your sound settings.
[22:48] <bioa10> I have the charger from the Canakit
[22:48] <Lartza> Shouldn't use a charger even if it's an expensive one though
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[22:48] <Lartza> bioa10, I doubt that it's a charger
[22:49] <bioa10> https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi-3-starter-kit.html
[22:49] <Lartza> Also seems to have a noise filter possibly?
[22:49] <iKarith> bioa10: The official and CanaKit power supplies are both pretty reliable.
[22:49] <lopta> What sort of interface do eInk panels (or HATs) tend to use?
[22:50] <iKarith> lopta: SPI probably for a HAT?
[22:50] <bioa10> And here is the microphone https://www.amazon.com/aitesco-Microphone-Omnidirectional-Condenser-Interviews/dp/B072Q2GH99
[22:50] <lopta> iKarith: Thanks
[22:50] <iKarith> Ah, okay, so the element isn't going to be right next to the board
[22:51] <iKarith> That makes me think your ALSA settings aren't ideal.
[22:51] <ShapeShifter499> isn't there a supplier that will just throw the pi into a anti static bag and mail it in a standard envelope?
[22:52] <bioa10> I turned up all the alsamixer volumes
[22:52] <iKarith> bioa10: How high? The mic will distort if it's too high
[22:53] <bioa10> 100
[22:53] <iKarith> That's too high. Back it off to about 80 or even 70.
[22:53] <iKarith> you're probably clipping all over the place
[22:54] <bioa10> I'll try testing after class, I just know the guide says to set it to high
[22:55] <iKarith> Try 80
[22:55] <iKarith> I assume you're working on an alexa sort of thingy?
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[22:55] <bioa10> Here is the tutorial btw https://maker.pro/education/best-voice-recognition-software-for-raspberry-pi
[22:55] <bioa10> And yeah, voice controlled media center
[22:56] <iKarith> That mic is probably not the best for hearing you across the room BTW.
[22:56] <iKarith> But it's cheap and good for testing
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[22:56] <bioa10> It's what we got from our professor when we asked for a microphone for our project
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[22:58] <iKarith> It'll work for the purpose.
[22:58] <iKarith> it's just not ideal for shouting at your TV across the room ;)
[22:58] <bioa10> We are trying to make a media center using RecalBox that is both voice and web controlled
[22:58] <iKarith> neat
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[22:59] <xtore> Can a pi zero run androidOS and run all those apps and make the apps think it's a legit tablet?
[22:59] <lopta> I have to go, sadly.
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[22:59] <bioa10> Using two Pis though, one will do the web and voice processing, the other will run RecalBox and will be connected to the TV and such
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[23:00] <ghostboarder> There we go
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[23:01] <xtore> When people ask whether the power to a pi out of a USB power supply is clean, what do they mean by clean exactly, is it in reference to voltage fluctuations or something a bit more occult such as the "dirty electricity" meme about which a few books have also been written?
[23:01] <bioa10> Also, if we have a PC case with a case fan, would putting the microphone inside the case be a bad idea?
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[23:04] <davr0s> before i go googling... r.e. some pi's as cameras controlled by smartphone - has anyone already written some nice UI/apps for this
[23:05] <davr0s> at the moment i'm just SSHing to start it lol
[23:06] <davr0s> what i have in mind is a number of cameras being synced.. it would be nice to have a smartphone app that shows thumbnails of what each pi is seeing
[23:06] <iKarith> xtore: "dirty" as in ripple, unstable voltage, etc.
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[23:06] <davr0s> a smartphone interface is probably easier for me than getting more hardware bits like pushbuttons & indicator LEDs
[23:07] <bioa10> iKarith: Do you have any advice for my case question? Sorry to bug you more
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[23:08] <iKarith> xtore: Back in the day, power supplies that fed computers were pretty poorly regulated in general and splattered all kinds of RF noise. And the early machines used noisy chips with long, straight runs for traces without internal ground planes. Those traces were like antennas for RF hash.
[23:09] <iKarith> Homebrew electronics with high-speed components pretty much required a box of 0.1uf caps to try and filter out the noise on the power rails, and there was just a lot of hope and pray for the signal traces.
[23:10] <iKarith> bioa10: don't put the mic head inside the case.
[23:10] <iKarith> bioa10: just outside should be fine, but the whole microphone itself should be outside.
[23:11] <bioa10> Hmm, we were thinking about putting it in the case near an open area so it looks nicer
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[23:13] <r3> if you wanted the whole thing in the case, you could look at a wireless microphone or a wreless lavalier mcrophone
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[23:14] <r3> otherwise too much background noise will interfere with the microphone picking up anything
[23:14] <mave_> Anyone else having trouble with 'man-db' when processing triggers while updating on a pi 3b+?
[23:14] <mave_> https://i.imgur.com/9Gxujkb.jpg
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[23:14] <mave_> this is the kernel error i get
[23:14] <mave_> running raspbian
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[23:24] <xtore> This so called noise, if it's RF noise would basically just translate into what? Current fluctuations in the electric cables or are we talking about RF assaults on components themselves sort of like a low level, chronic EMF blast on every single componet sensitive to RF?
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