#raspberrypi IRC Log

Index

IRC Log for 2018-04-30

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:02] * davr0s (~textual@host81-155-68-228.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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[0:05] <mfa298> iKarith: don't know about exim, but that seems like a non issue, my experience of rasbian and debian (and others) is that ipv6 is enabled by default and has been for a long time
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[0:05] <mfa298> last time I had to enable IPv6 on an OS was back in the early XP days
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[0:13] <shauno> it used to be blacklisted on raspbian. long since past, thankfully
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[0:35] <dogbert2> IPv6 should be disabled, if you don't need it (IMO)
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[0:40] <shauno> I think we're almost 20 years past that point
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[0:53] <iKarith> shauno: so exim no longer spits out an error message with the default Debian config because ::1 isn't a thing?
[0:53] * aaa__ is now known as test123
[0:54] <iKarith> As I said, I haven't got a Raspbian handy, my Pis are all across town :)
[0:54] <shauno> no idea, I've been using postfix for longer than I care to remember
[0:55] <iKarith> If ::1 exists on a Pi, it won't error.
[0:55] <iKarith> We only end up with exim because installing tin pulls in a MTA, and Debian still defaults to exim
[0:56] <iKarith> Yes, tin, for usenet. :)
[0:57] <iKarith> If I can find a usenet client that's relatively friendly for non-UNIX people (sadly slrn is not that client!), I'd use that.
[0:59] * tristero (~nobody@unaffiliated/transfinite) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1)
[1:00] <Habbie> iKarith, but tin is?
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[1:15] <shauno> things like that tend to be kinda relative. pine isn't friendly, but compared to mutt ..
[1:15] * markmcb (~markmcb@104.129.24.147.adsl.inet-telecom.org) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[1:15] <Habbie> hehe yes
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[1:18] <mfa298> iKarith: certainly on Jessie and Stretch the default is for IPv6 to be enabled so there should be a ::1
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[1:26] <dustfinger> how may cpus does the pi3 have?
[1:26] <Habbie> one
[1:27] <dustfinger> Thanks.
[1:27] <Habbie> with four cores
[1:27] <Habbie> why?
[1:27] * stoilkov (~stoilkov@95.111.120.130) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[1:27] <dustfinger> I am compiling minetest and I have to run make -j <number of processors>
[1:27] <Habbie> don't go beyond 4; depending on memory needs, go lower
[1:28] <dustfinger> Should I just pass 1 since there is only one processor?
[1:28] <Habbie> 1 is always a safe number
[1:28] <Habbie> might take longer than needed but it is safe
[1:29] <dustfinger> Does it just affect compile time or will a higher number affect the program at runtime?
[1:29] <Habbie> just compile time
[1:29] <dustfinger> Ahh, I will just pass 1 then and be safe :-)
[1:29] <Habbie> yes
[1:29] <Habbie> good choice
[1:29] <dustfinger> Thanks for your time Habbie.
[1:30] <Habbie> no problem!
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[1:42] <ShorTie> sometimes it can eefect the compile too...
[1:45] <Habbie> we call those situations 'serious bugs'
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[3:26] <i-make-robots> hello all. I have tried every tutorial I can find on streaming picam from a pi B and a pi 3 to my subnet. no matter what i run, netstat always says no ports are open and nmap from another machine agrees. cvlc appears to be thinking that the stream from raspivid is dead and closes down early. this is definitely not correct.
[3:26] <i-make-robots> what do?
[3:28] <larsks> i-make-robots: I dunno; which tutorials have you followed? What commands are you running? What do you expect to be listening (and on what port)?
[3:29] <i-make-robots> hi larsks. thank you! I typed it all out here: ://www.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi/comments/8ekek9/how_do_i_weekly_question_and_idea_thread_23_apr/dy5a088/
[3:29] * test123 is now known as aaa__
[3:29] <i-make-robots> i am getting a "cannot pre fill buffer" error in my latest attempt
[3:30] <i-make-robots> which is odd, considering i'm streaming from camera to stdin, it should be there.
[3:30] <larsks> I just pipe raspivid into 'nc -l 8000', and then connect to that from a remote host.
[3:31] <larsks> Let me try out your command on my pi, just a sec.
[3:31] * t0adst00l (~sluggo@gateway/tor-sasl/prometheusfalli/x-99064168) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[3:32] <larsks> Going to have to wait while I install cvlc...
[3:33] <i-make-robots> is that -I upper case i or lower case L?
[3:34] <larsks> That is '-l' as in the 'listen' option. Although you may also want to change your font...
[3:34] <i-make-robots> thanks
[3:35] <i-make-robots> oh snap, that might have worked!
[3:35] <i-make-robots> it quits after a few seconds ...
[3:37] <i-make-robots> huh. it runs until the moment nmap detects the open port, then it quits.
[3:38] <larsks> Huh. That's unexpected if raspivid is actually still running.
[3:38] <i-make-robots> ah, -k
[3:38] <i-make-robots> nc -k will keep it open after the connection is closed
[3:38] <larsks> Yes. I though you meant it was crashing after a few seconds.
[3:39] * cyphase (~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[3:42] <i-make-robots> so now on the receiving end i'm trying to capture the video and display it in vlc. this is so that I can run OBSStudio and send the feed to Twitch
[3:42] * djk (~Thunderbi@pool-96-242-161-188.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:42] <i-make-robots> vlc on the receiver doesn't seem to be able to open the feed. at least, it produes a LOT of error messages when it attempts to do so.
[3:42] * giddles (~giddles@unaffiliated/giddles) Quit (Quit: gn8)
[3:43] <i-make-robots> what format is raspivid? I tried to google it. maybe i can force vlc to acknowledge the correct format.
[3:44] <larsks> I believe it is some sort of raw h264 stream. I usually run it through ffmpeg first which seems to handle it better than vlc.
[3:45] <larsks> Just a second, let me try the same thing here...
[3:45] * kupad (kupad@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/kupad) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:45] <i-make-robots> thank you :)
[3:47] * aaa__ (~aaa__@unaffiliated/km9k62tkuq) Quit (Quit: aaa__)
[3:52] <i-make-robots> i'm trying uv4l mmal : https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/7446/how-can-i-stream-h-264-video-from-the-raspberry-pi-camera-module-via-a-web-serve
[3:54] <larsks> I am philosophically opposed to uv4l, but I here it works for some people.
[3:54] <larsks> So, when I run, on my pi: raspivid -w 640 -h 480 -t 0 -o - -n | nc -l 8000
[3:54] <larsks> And on my host: vlc tcp://cam1:8000 :demux=h264
[3:55] <larsks> It all Just Works.
[3:55] * Obi-Wan (~obi-wan@unaffiliated/obi-wan) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[3:55] <larsks> Oh, huh. But maybe only sometimes? Just a second.
[3:57] <i-make-robots> on my recipient im using vlc for windows. i have no idea how to demux there.
[3:58] * Ilyas (uid43013@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xhlshoymppwubkpx) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[3:59] <larsks> Okay, try this.
[3:59] <larsks> On the pi, we can use ffmpeg to clean up the stream to make it more consumable by vlc.
[3:59] <larsks> raspivid -w 640 -h 480 -t 0 -o - -n | ffmpeg -f h264 -r 20 -i - -c copy -f mpegts - | nc -l 8000
[3:59] <larsks> Then on my receiver, I just run:
[3:59] <larsks> vlc tcp://cam1:8000
[4:00] <i-make-robots> larsks: trying now...
[4:00] <larsks> For me, that seems to work consistently without producing errors on the vlc side.
[4:01] <i-make-robots> the -f flag appears twice?
[4:01] <larsks> Yes. That specifies the stream format; the first is for the input stream from raspivid, the second is for the output stream on stdout.
[4:02] * Obi-Wan (~obi-wan@unaffiliated/obi-wan) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:02] <i-make-robots> well... the video is definitely on the pi...
[4:03] <i-make-robots> all ports on the host are closed.
[4:03] <i-make-robots> wtf
[4:03] <larsks> Is that 'nc' process still running?
[4:03] <larsks> Did you remember your '-k'?
[4:04] <larsks> If you're trying to connect multiple times...
[4:04] <i-make-robots> i missed the -o
[4:04] <larsks> You may want to consider copy-and-paste just to test this out.
[4:04] <larsks> That would avoid typos.
[4:04] <i-make-robots> i wish. this irc is on a machine with a gui. the pi is headless.
[4:04] <i-make-robots> er, a separate console
[4:04] <i-make-robots> i have to type carefully :)
[4:05] <larsks> You can paste into a terminal. My pi is also headless; I'm connected via ssh.
[4:05] <i-make-robots> the port is open ,the video is (presumably) there, but mac vlc can't open it.
[4:05] <i-make-robots> i'm not connected headless. that was my bad.
[4:05] <larsks> What version of vlc are you using? I have a mac laptop hanging around I can try with.
[4:05] <i-make-robots> 2.2.6
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[4:08] <larsks> The current version seems to be 3.0.2.
[4:10] <i-make-robots> updating now...
[4:10] <larsks> I'm installing it right now.
[4:11] <i-make-robots> when i have hdmi screen and keyboard in pi, i can use it just fine. when i remove them and try to ssh? no access. wtf.
[4:11] <i-make-robots> oh, i rpbably have to set up ssh access in raspi-config. blech
[4:11] <larsks> Are you saying that ssh access works when you have the screen/keyboard connected?
[4:11] <larsks> Are you have just not enabled ssh yet?
[4:12] <i-make-robots> second option
[4:12] <larsks> Using 3.0.2 I'm able to connect w/o a problem to the stream from the camera...
[4:12] <i-make-robots> well that's because you're very clever. :)
[4:12] <larsks> On your pi, '
[4:13] <larsks> "systemctl enable --now ssh"
[4:14] <i-make-robots> i used raspi-config
[4:15] <larsks> If that floats your boat!
[4:17] <i-make-robots> well it DID work. nmap said it was up
[4:18] <i-make-robots> disconnected the monitor and rebooted the pi, now ssh isn't available.
[4:18] <i-make-robots> wtf.
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[4:19] <larsks> You can run "systemctl is-enabled ssh" to confirm that it ought to be available (that should print "enabled").
[4:19] <larsks> If it is enabled but not running, we can look for errors.
[4:19] <i-make-robots> to do that i have to reattach the montior. i'm trying to turn it on so i can use it headless, because it makes sense to do that.
[4:20] <i-make-robots> connecting/disconnecting the hdmi cable reboots the pi.
[4:21] <larsks> Yeah, agreed! Just need to figure out what's going on. Probably leave the monitor/keyboard plugged in until ssh survives a reboot.
[4:21] <i-make-robots> something else is funny now. it gets partway through boot and then reboots
[4:21] <i-make-robots> no low-voltage warning. there's a yellow lightning bolt in the top right
[4:21] <larsks> Isn't that the low-voltage warning?
[4:22] <i-make-robots> maybe? it wasn't there before
[4:22] <i-make-robots> the pi has a dedicated power supply.
[4:22] <larsks> That is the under-voltage symbol: https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/57963/what-does-the-lightning-bolt-mean
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[4:25] <i-make-robots> survives a reboot. i think the usb cable in the power port is twitchy
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[4:25] <i-make-robots> it would be the third or fourth micro usb cable i've used.
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[4:30] <i-make-robots> the power light on the pi stays on about 4s then cuts out and the process repeats.
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[4:30] <i-make-robots> @#($*E
[4:30] <larsks> If you're confident your USB power supply is sufficient...then you've got me, man. I haven't had to deal with power problems before.
[4:32] <i-make-robots> i tried it from a powered usb hub with no other devices, then the back of the pc.... i can try it from my mac but i think it'll be the same.
[4:33] <i-make-robots> mac same result.
[4:34] <i-make-robots> well larsks, thank you for your help. it must be something on my end, probably pebkac?
[4:34] <i-make-robots> i need to eat dinner and maybe i'll try again tomorrow.
[4:34] <larsks> I don't think so. It sounds like you have power problems.
[4:34] <larsks> Either your Pi is faulty, or you should grab a spare 2.5A usb power supply and see if that improves things.
[4:34] <i-make-robots> already tried a powered usb hub.
[4:35] <larsks> What was its current rating?
[4:35] <i-make-robots> also tried two model B pis and a model 3.
[4:35] <i-make-robots> all give me junk results.
[4:35] <larsks> And they are all getting the under voltage warning?
[4:35] <i-make-robots> i don't believe the B has an undervoltage warning.
[4:35] <i-make-robots> i will eat dinner and then swap out the usb cable.
[4:35] <larsks> Sure. Good luck!
[4:35] <i-make-robots> it's trapped in 2m of cable chain. suuuuper fun
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[6:53] <Project86__> I've always used win32diskimager, but just got etcher last week, I like it. Plus it works on all platforms
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[10:09] <Strykar> any try PoE with the new RPi B+?
[10:09] <Strykar> s/any/anyone
[10:13] <stevenm> Strykar, I'm still waiting for mine to arrive, been on back order for months
[10:13] <stevenm> http://cpc.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/rpi3-modbp-poe/poe-hat-for-raspberry-pi-3-model/dp/SC14884?CMP=TREML007-005
[10:16] <Strykar> stevenm, thanks. Is the max 2.5 amps sufficient for the B+ and 4 USB devices? assuming the USB devices are all within 500mA each?
[10:16] <stevenm> no idea
[10:16] <stevenm> i'm hoping (when it comes) it'll be enough to run the pi and the official touchscreen together
[10:18] <BurtyB> I doubt it if you want to use 2A on USB ports
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[10:20] <Strykar> me too, I was hoping it being 802.3af compliant would mean more than enough power
[10:21] <Strykar> how much does the B+ need itself?
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[10:25] <BurtyB> Strykar, up to around 1A iirc
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[10:25] <Strykar> BurtyB, thank you
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[10:39] <gordonDrogon> the USB ports are limited to a max. of 1.2A over all 4 ports.
[10:40] <gordonDrogon> fwiw: I'mn running a Piv2 with the 7" touchscreen off an older 2A PSU without any issues.
[10:50] * swift110 (~swift110@unaffiliated/swift110) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[10:51] <Ben64> i'm running a 12v backup camera screen off of pi
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[10:57] <shbrngdo> any USB device that needs more than a few hundred ma of current should probably have a dual data/power cable to get power from a separate line. A typical USB power thingy has 2 ports on it, so one for the RPi, one for the external device's power USB thingy
[10:58] <shbrngdo> the RPi was not designed to have a bunch of current supplying the USB devices. Maybe a single hoggy device, but that's about it.
[10:59] <Strykar> shbrngdo, USB2 spec allows for 500mA per port iirc, it's up to the manufacturer to enable adequate supply. I agree if using something like an external HDD, a separate power supply makes sense
[10:59] <shbrngdo> I've got an old USB drive that came with a cable like that. The other one had its own power supply.
[11:00] <shbrngdo> it was one of those 'shirt pocket' hybrid hard drives. Kinda nice, actually. I used it a lot back in the day.
[11:00] <shbrngdo> but yeah it needed more current than a standard USB could provide.
[11:03] <GenteelBen> Most 2.5" 7-9mm HDDs can live with the current supplied by a standard USB port.
[11:03] <shbrngdo> newer ones, yeah
[11:03] <Strykar> ancient spinning hard drives are exceptions
[11:03] <GenteelBen> The only ones that can't are like, 4TB drives with 6 platters or whatever.
[11:04] <shbrngdo> I think this one drive is at least 8 years old...
[11:04] <GenteelBen> I think we should put this to the test. Mail me all your HDDs and I will judge.
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[11:07] <gordonDrogon> Pi's since the v2 (maybe the 1b+) have had a USB current limiter fitted - the v2 was selectable from 600mA or 1.2mA. It supplies power to all 4 ports.
[11:07] <gordonDrogon> very few consumer grade PC's do anything more than stick a polyfuse on the USB connectors.
[11:07] <gordonDrogon> the v1.1 Pi had 150mA (IIRC) polyfuses which were removed on the 1.2
[11:08] <gordonDrogon> mostly because people were simply soldering wires directly from the micro USB input to the USB sockets, but hey ho ...
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[11:16] * H__ raises hand .... i did that too
[11:16] <H__> and that pi still works. up 482 days now :)
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[11:17] <gordonDrogon> :)
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[11:28] <shbrngdo> gordonDrogon - FYI, /dev/mem on FreeBSD doesn't handle registers at all. Just so you're aware. But it has an ioctl interface for 'things' and so would probably be about as fast when you consider the effect of mmap paging
[11:28] <shbrngdo> to access a register, /dev/mem would have to basically do uncached reads and immediate write-through for specific address ranges. basically does not happen.
[11:29] * Karyon_ (~Karyon@unaffiliated/karyon) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:29] <shbrngdo> in short, you get a page fault for each read/write operation, which then gets translated through the various driver layers into a memory access.
[11:29] <shbrngdo> I suspect that performing a single ioctl call might actually be faster.
[11:30] * Karyon (~Karyon@unaffiliated/karyon) Quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
[11:31] <shbrngdo> I tested an early attempt at porting wiringPi using /dev/mem and the gpio 'readall' function wouldn't reflect what a separate program did to an IO pin. Sometimes pins would appear to 'flip' on their own, too. it was kinda pathetic.
[11:31] <Habbie> when you say 'caching' you mean the CPU cache?
[11:32] <shbrngdo> correct, L0/L1/L2 cache. registers need to be uncached so they immediately read/write
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[11:32] <Sepultura> Hallo
[11:32] <Sepultura> how can I remove/deactivate the OpenGL drivers?
[11:33] <shbrngdo> why do you need to do that? I'm just curious...
[11:33] <shiftplusone> Depends on what you mean.
[11:33] <shbrngdo> normally you could alter the xorg.conf file [you might have to make one] so that the GL extensions aren't there. docs for that kind of thing are on x.org
[11:33] <Sepultura> shbrngdo: we have a rasp2
[11:34] <shiftplusone> Technically, the answer is you can't (unless start_cd.elf has them removed).
[11:34] <shbrngdo> huh?
[11:34] <Sepultura> if I switch off GUI the gl drivers won't be loaded?
[11:34] <shiftplusone> shbrngdo: X11 on the pi doesn't use GL drivers
[11:34] <Sepultura> if I boot only to console?
[11:34] <shbrngdo> normally there are GL extensions though, which may or may not be openGL drivers.
[11:35] <shbrngdo> boot to console should do that, yeah
[11:35] <shiftplusone> ah
[11:35] * shbrngdo always boots to console. I hate X11 login manglers
[11:35] <shiftplusone> Still not clear what OP is trying to accomplish though.
[11:35] <Sepultura> are the opengl drivers kernel drivers?
[11:35] <shbrngdo> for the RPi, they might be, or not. I'm not familiar enough with the hardware.
[11:36] <shbrngdo> in some cases they are (for example, NVidia typically would hve its own)
[11:36] <shiftplusone> The main implementation is in the pi's firmware.
[11:36] <shbrngdo> exactly - the video core - which is closed source
[11:36] <Sepultura> you can'T deactivate the GL drivers?
[11:36] <shiftplusone> with libraries in /opt/vc/lib
[11:36] <shiftplusone> What do you mean deactivate? they're not 'activated'... they're simply available for applications to use if they choose to.
[11:37] <Sepultura> you can activate them via sudo raspi-config
[11:37] <shbrngdo> Sepultura - you can disable GL extensions for X11 which should avoid using any GL-specific things in the driver. probably.
[11:37] <shiftplusone> remove the .so files and they won't be available
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[11:37] <Sepultura> can I deinstall it?
[11:37] <shiftplusone> raspi-config switches between the firmare implementation and the mesa implementation
[11:37] <BCMM> Sepultura: opengl on the pi works a bit differently from how it typically works on a PC
[11:38] <BCMM> Sepultura: there isn't really an "opengl driver" in the same sense there is on a PC
[11:38] <Sepultura> need to go
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[11:38] <shbrngdo> I'm not running Raspbian on my RPi's so I'm not sure what effect that would have, deleting the .so files. Most likely those are loaded up by Xorg when the various extensions are activated. You can check the Xorg.0.log file to see what it's up to, most likely
[11:38] <BCMM> because the GL implementation is in SoC firmware, not in a driver running on the CPU as it would be on a Pc
[11:39] <shbrngdo> BCMM - that actually makes sense. 'gl extensions' would manage that
[11:39] <BCMM> i mean obviously there's still a graphics driver, but it doesn't really do GL - just sort of passes it through
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[11:39] <BCMM> if i understand correctly
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[11:43] <shbrngdo> OpenGL extensions are a set of libraries that are (as I recall) loaded by Xorg and may be different for different adaptors. there is (or was?) a library called 'mesa' which might have to "not be there" if your graphics card has its own implementation of the GL extensions. In the case of the BCM video core, it probably does.
[11:43] <shbrngdo> you can check Xorg.0.log to see when they load up, should say something.
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[11:44] <shbrngdo> maybe something like this: "Loading /usr/local/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so"
[11:45] <shbrngdo> (that was from my workstation's Xorg.0.log but RPi should be similar)
[11:46] * shbrngdo scrollback a bit - yeah, firmware implementation vs mesa implementation
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[11:53] <BCMM> shbrngdo: minor correction: mesa isn't only a software GL implementation
[11:54] <BCMM> it also implements hardware drivers for quite a few graphics cards
[11:54] <shiftplusone> including the pi
[11:55] <shbrngdo> yes. however, I know that some implementations (NVidia on FreeBSD, for one) require using their drivers, and not mesa
[11:55] <shbrngdo> anyway the point is that the Xorg.0.log will tell you what it's doing
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[11:56] <BCMM> e.g. on PC, the open-source Nouveau driver works with Mesa, but the official proprietary nvidia driver ships its own libgl
[11:56] <shbrngdo> ack - that's what I'm using at the moment
[11:56] <shbrngdo> (the proprietary one)
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[11:58] <shbrngdo> in any case I don't think I ever got an explanation why this was necessary...
[11:58] <shbrngdo> "disabling OpenGL"
[11:58] <shiftplusone> which is a phrase that makes no sense, so I don't think a sensible answer can be given until the problem is defined.
[11:59] <shbrngdo> no argument here
[11:59] <BCMM> my money would be on a mistaken assumption that simply loading the driver causes the GPU to use more power
[12:00] <shbrngdo> maybe the real question was how to prevent the GUI from coming up. I generally make that change whenever I install Linux [since the distros all seem anal retentive about having a "*dm" or "slim" loading up on boot]
[12:00] <Strykar> BCMM, depends on the hardware, on my Odroid C2, I can save quite a bit by disabling HDMI output
[12:01] <BCMM> Strykar: sure, but that's not the same thing as not loading the opengl driver
[12:01] <shbrngdo> I usually run the RPi headless anyway. Rarely do i connect it to a monitor
[12:02] <shbrngdo> so you can prevent "all that in memory" by disabling the display manager
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[12:04] <shbrngdo> the min video RAM is 16M as I recall, so you set "gpu_mem=16" in config.txt
[12:05] <shbrngdo> then you disable the GUI depending on your distro. In the 'sane' SysV way, you change the display manager symlink from an 'S' to a 'K'. In systemd-land, you have to jump through a bit of a hoop.
[12:07] <shiftplusone> 'systemctl set-default multi-user.target'
[12:07] <shiftplusone> not much of a hoop
[12:07] <shiftplusone> you can do it by changing a symlink too
[12:07] <shbrngdo> it took me HOURS, maybe even DAYS, to find that info online the first time I ran into that problem. I hate systemd.
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[12:08] <shiftplusone> Yeah, it wasn't straight forward. I tried just disabling and re-enabling the DM service (lightdm, in our case), but that didn't do what I'd expect it to do.
[12:08] <shbrngdo> at some point I'll try Devuan's RPi image
[12:08] <shiftplusone> But once you know how to do it, it's straight forward. The same goes for SysV.
[12:09] <shbrngdo> it depends on what you mean by 'straight' and 'forward'...
[12:10] <BCMM> i mean, i'm no systemd fan, but, like first hit on google for "debian disable display manager"
[12:10] <shbrngdo> I basically find it *IRRITATING* when some foolish 'developer's idea of system configuration basically stands in my way and taunts me
[12:11] <shbrngdo> BCMM - several years ago, was VERY difficult to find
[12:11] <BCMM> oh yeah, fair enough.
[12:11] <shbrngdo> but yeah it's such a common complaint, I'm sure it's easy to find *NOW*
[12:11] <BCMM> i remember when everybody was insisting that systemd was the entire future, but their documentation was still for systemv
[12:12] <shbrngdo> in essence, the rules were changed without regard to how it would affect end-users and I was extremely DISPLEASED
[12:12] <BCMM> basically the rule is that if you're not using a Fedora desktop in standard configuration, you don't count as an end-user :)
[12:12] <BCMM> with that in mind, systemd 100% makes sense
[12:13] <shbrngdo> nice analogy
[12:13] <shbrngdo> in any case, Devuan has an RPi image. I just haven't tested it yet.
[12:13] <shbrngdo> It would be a really awesome move if the RPi foundation were to properly acknowledge it
[12:17] <shiftplusone> acknowledge it how? Link to it from the download page?
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[12:27] <Fulgen> shbrngdo: So you hate systemd because you can't find something in the internet which is documented? ok
[12:28] <shbrngdo> no, I hate systemd because it changed the rules for no good reason, and forces people to change along with it whether they want to or not. And the documentation, at the time, was POOR, and it got in my way more often than anything else I'd seen up to that point. But I'll stop raggin on systemd, now, because it can easily degrade in to a religious war
[12:28] <shiftplusone> good idea
[12:29] <shbrngdo> what I like is that there are alternatives [like Devuan]
[12:29] <shbrngdo> or, my favorite, FreeBSD
[12:30] <shiftplusone> Just don't mention hugs.
[12:30] <shbrngdo> hugs? ew. touchy-feely-bleah. my lunch is coming up...
[12:30] <shiftplusone> heh
[12:31] <shiftplusone> that would explain their policy then
[12:31] <Fulgen> shbrngdo: what do you mean by "changing rules"? upstart, sysvinit, rc.d, all behave differently, so why is systemd the bad sheep
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[12:31] <mfa298> because people don't like change
[12:31] <shbrngdo> Fulgen at this point in time, if I continue this, it will only end up in me being flamed for not liking it. So I won't continue.
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[12:32] <Fulgen> shbrngdo: my question was only out of interest, but I can understand you :D
[12:32] <shbrngdo> I think the term 'religious war' pretty much covers it. and it's 3:30AM and my eyes are fuzzy
[12:32] <Fulgen> :o
[12:32] <BurtyB> Fulgen, because it tries to take over everything rather than doing one thing well it does all the things ish
[12:32] <BurtyB> (imho)
[12:33] <shiftplusone> I think you get to a point in life where you're comfortable and proficient with what you know. You can go on about your day happily getting things done. Then somebody comes along and yanks your tools away and expects you to learn new tools. Some people just accept it, some people say "nuh, I'm alright with what I have."
[12:34] <Fulgen> BurtyB: hmm, that's a point which is a bit opinion-based - does systemd handle way too much or did e.g. the other PID-1's handle way too less?
[12:34] <Fulgen> luckily, if someone doesn't like it, he can just replace it
[12:35] <Fulgen> shiftplusone: true :D
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[12:42] <shbrngdo> ah, this took some finding: http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/holy-wars.html
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[14:25] <red9> Thing is change equals cost and to make it worthwhile it must be an improvement that makes up for it. Too many times people demand change for the sake of change.
[14:28] <red9> And subversion is a thing too. Not even computer stuff is free from that any longer.
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[14:32] <shiftplusone> I'd say systemd made my life as a maintainer easier in the long run.
[14:32] <shiftplusone> It was a pain to port everything over and learn how things work, but that's expected
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[14:37] <red9> No security, stability or overcomplication issues?
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[14:44] <shiftplusone> Can't comment on security other than whatever issues are found should be handled like any other. No difference as far stability goes. What kind of issues did you see? Over-complication? In some areas with simplification in other. systemd unit files are much clearer and compact than the old init scripts.
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[14:50] <red9> I saw some really bad programming used in systemd which enabled root access. It can most likely be found using search.
[14:50] <red9> (beyond the normal programming mistake)
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[14:56] <red9> I think it's this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/05/linux_systemd_grants_root_to_invalid_user_accounts/
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[14:56] <shiftplusone> And in standard Lennart fashion - "It's not a bug, it's a feature"
[14:56] <shiftplusone> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237
[14:56] <red9> More: https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/0343258/severe-systemd-bug-allowed-remote-code-execution-for-two-years
[14:56] <red9> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/linux-systemd-flaw-gives-attackers-root-access/
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[14:57] <shiftplusone> indeed
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[16:50] <Habbie> what's a good OS choice for the pi if i want recent stuff instead of the longer debian release cycle? i don't feel like compiling things from source to be clear
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[16:53] <mfa298> I'd probably look at arch or gentoo for bleeding edge or fedora if you want something in the middle.
[16:54] <mfa298> not that I've ever used Arch or Gentoo and I've not used Fedora on the Pi since the very early days.
[16:54] <Habbie> arch and fedora were the two that came to mind, yes
[16:54] <akk> Ubuntu is a good middle ground too, 6-month release cycle, but I haven't used it on RPi.
[16:55] <Habbie> that's a good point
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[16:55] <Habbie> they wouldn't be far behind fedora
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[16:56] <mfa298> I have a bit of a Love/Hate relationship with Ubuntu, things often seen somewhat broken in 50% of their releases. Fedora often seems to be well ahead of Ubuntu and more stable (although that's in the PC world rather than Pi)
[16:57] <Habbie> ack
[16:57] <Habbie> my train of thought started with 'man my weechat is really old'
[16:57] <Habbie> and besides weechat this pi does nothing besides the occasional (software) tinkering
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[16:58] <Syliss> mfa298 ive had the same feeling, used to love ubuntu, but lately its been meh
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[16:58] <Habbie> for servers i switched from debian to ubuntu because ubuntu doesn't actually support 80% of the stuff i run in terms of security
[16:58] <Habbie> and debian does
[16:58] <Syliss> i really wish bodhi was still being developed for pi
[16:59] <Syliss> Habbie: is your statement reversed?
[16:59] <Habbie> it is not
[16:59] <akk> I stopped using ubuntu (on x86) because it was too heavyweight, loaded down with daemons I didn't need. But my last try at fedora didn't go well (admittedly a while ago).
[16:59] <Syliss> so you use ubuntu because it dosent support 80% of the stuff you use?
[16:59] <Habbie> oops
[16:59] <akk> Kind of the same thing I found with arch: it worked well for a while then something randomly broke and didn't get fixed for too long.
[17:00] <Habbie> you're right
[17:00] <Syliss> lol
[17:00] <Syliss> was like wtf
[17:00] <Habbie> i only checked the second half of my sentence against your question
[17:00] * mfa298 checks weechat on local X86 type machines. Ubuntu 18.04 (released this week?) 1.9.1, fedora 27 (released last november) 2.0.1
[17:00] <Syliss> pwnd
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[17:00] <Habbie> mfa298, good data points, thanks
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[17:01] <Habbie> mfa298, and there are other arguments for fedora, for me
[17:01] <mfa298> Fedora is my main workstation OS, servers are mostly Ubuntu or Smartos (with a bit of CentOS)
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[17:02] <Habbie> other than the mac laptop and the openbsd router, everything i touch (outside customer stuff) is debian
[17:02] <Habbie> so an rpm-based thing for my own tinkering would be wise
[17:02] <mfa298> the main thing that wins for Ubuntu is the longish release support (although CentOS is slightly better), and Ubuntu is what most people seem to like for servers so documentation and tools are sometimes easier to find.
[17:03] <Habbie> yes, LTS is nice
[17:03] <Syliss> yeah im mac at home (other than a gaming rig i dont use enough), windows at work (network is linux based tho), and linux for everything in between
[17:03] <mfa298> I only had an 18.04 instance to look at as I've just setup a VM for it to see what's broken this time around.
[17:04] <Syliss> im normally lazy and just install rasbian on my pi's
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[17:05] <mfa298> all my pi's are raspbian as well, it's the easy route that just works without much effort
[17:05] <Syliss> yeo
[17:06] <Syliss> yep*, i use noobs to install it too
[17:06] <Syliss> normally
[17:06] <mfa298> NOOBS seems like a lot more work that win32diskimager or dd
[17:06] <Syliss> drag and drop
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[17:07] <Syliss> plug it in, select install, done
[17:07] <akk> Agreed, NOOBS is more work on linux, but maybe easier on mac and windows.
[17:08] <Syliss> it is easier on windows and mac
[17:08] <akk> I tried it on Linux and it took about 3x as long as just dd-ing raspbian.
[17:08] <Habbie> akk, what took 3x as long?
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[17:08] <Syliss> noobs is, unzip, drag file, done
[17:08] <akk> First I had to install NOOBS (which took about as long as the dd) then from NOOBS I had to install raspbian which took much longer.
[17:09] <Habbie> akk, right
[17:09] <Habbie> akk, i figured that second half might take long
[17:09] <akk> It was apparently downloading a bunch of stuff, which seemed strange since the image was so big I'd assumed raspbian was included.
[17:09] <akk> Maybe it's fast for people with a faster net.
[17:09] <Syliss> i dont connect my to the net
[17:09] <Syliss> when i install it
[17:10] <akk> Probably a good idea.
[17:10] <Syliss> if you do the netinstall, yeah its slow af
[17:10] <akk> I only tried it once; it worked initially but there was something weird on /boot that caused problems later, I've forgotten now what it was
[17:10] <akk> and I gave up and went back to regular raspbian.
[17:11] <mfa298> I think there's a couple of variations of NOOBS, one which includes a local copy of raspbian and one that doesn't, also with NOOBs I think you're losing at least 1GB of the SD card space for NOOBs and it's stuff.
[17:12] <mfa298> akk: possibly that there's no easy way to update NOOBs so if you move your SD card to a newer Pi model it might not work.
[17:12] <akk> I downloaded the default that the pi foundation page points to -- I was trying to follow the default path that a newbie would follow.
[17:12] <akk> It was a big image; I don't think it was a netinstall image.
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[17:14] <akk> It was for a book, and I wanted to check both so I'd know whether I should recommend noobs or straight rasbian.
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[17:15] <akk> A lot of the people on this channel at the time said they had had problems similar to mine with noobs, so I decided I shouldn't recommend it as the best option.
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[17:23] <Syliss> there were a few times where ive had problems with noobs but that was a long time ago.
[17:23] <Syliss> ive been using it on and off since it started
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[17:46] <always_su> what are the coolest rpi projects right now?
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[17:56] <shiftplusone> I like the handhelds and tablets people make
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[17:58] <Syliss> yeah the handhelds are getting nice
[17:59] <Syliss> i was thinking of using one for wireless network scanning, just add a gps module
[17:59] <shiftplusone> isn't that illegal or something?
[18:00] <mfa298> doesn't that depend on if you're called Google or Apple or not ? :p
[18:01] * Dave_MMP is now known as djsxxx_away
[18:01] <Syliss> scanning for not connecting to
[18:01] <Syliss> big difference
[18:02] <Habbie> still illegal in some countries
[18:02] <Syliss> lol
[18:03] <Syliss> its helpful to see what channels everyone is using to see what would be good for channel avoidance
[18:03] <Syliss> or looking for comcast hotspots
[18:03] <Syliss> that way i know where i can connect and get fast speeds, since its part of my plan
[18:03] <akk> I scan for wireless networks every time I go to a new place and want to connect. Surely that can't be illegal.
[18:04] <akk> Making and publishing a map of them, that's different.
[18:04] <mfa298> also what you're recording might make a difference. I think Google had some legal issues around doing that but it might be more about what they stored not that they did the scanning.
[18:04] <Syliss> akk, everything is illegal
[18:04] <Syliss> google was connecting to the networks and stuff too
[18:04] <Syliss> thats what got them
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[18:06] <always_su> scanning shouldn't be illegal anywhere
[18:06] <gordonDrogon> I saw a neat toy a while back -basically a mobile device scanning Wi-Fi then outputting the channels (or was it signal strength) on a pole that the person carried about with them - they filmed it in slow motion and made an art video or it all..
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[18:07] <Syliss> thats actually cool gordonDrogon
[18:07] * Johnjay (26780a63@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.120.10.99) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[18:08] <always_su> but yeah there are some cool wireless scanners
[18:08] <always_su> https://whitedome.com.au/re4son/pocket-kali/
[18:08] <gordonDrogon> this might have been it: https://vimeo.com/20412632
[18:09] <gordonDrogon> I'd turn the volume down on that though - it's random noise.
[18:13] <Syliss> nice, ill have to watch it later
[18:15] * collyrium (~godlessfa@unaffiliated/godlessfather) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:15] <Syliss> if i could do a full spectrum analyzer for 5.8ghz, it would be helpful for quad flying
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[18:46] <richstewart> I am trying to get the current value that can be seen by right clicking on the volume icon in the task bar. (i.e. "Analog", "HDMI" or an optional USB speaker). I need to get this value from within C/C++ code.
[18:47] <richstewart> I've been looking at the ALSA utilities source code, but haven't been able to figure it out.
[18:48] <Habbie> richstewart, have you managed to get it from the command line?
[18:48] <akk> richstewart: Try amixer from the command line, maybe?
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[18:49] <akk> In Python I use alsaaudio.Mixer and there's probably a C binding for that too.
[18:49] <richstewart> I have not been able to get it from the command line. I have tried aplay and amixer.
[18:49] <akk> But if pulse is on top, I don't know how to get those bindings (I try to avoid pulse).
[18:50] <richstewart> I'm not using pulse.
[18:50] <akk> What does amixer give you? An error?
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[18:51] <richstewart> amixer gives:
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[18:52] <akk> Oh, hmm, doesn't work on my pi3 either, amixer: Mixer attach default error: No such file or directory
[18:52] <richstewart> Simple mixer control 'PCM',0
[18:52] <richstewart> Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined
[18:52] <richstewart> Playback channels: Mono
[18:52] <richstewart> Limits: Playback -10239 - 400
[18:52] <richstewart> Mono: Playback 282 [99%] [2.82dB] [on]
[18:54] <richstewart> I switched from "Analog" to "HDMI" and the above output from amixer did not change.
[18:56] <akk> Can you read /var/lib/alsa/asound.state ?
[18:57] <akk> Here are some other cmdline ideas: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/89571/how-to-get-volume-level-from-the-command-line?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_rich_qa&utm_campaign=google_rich_qa
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[18:57] <richstewart> I can read that file. What am I looking for?
[18:58] <akk> python-alsaaudio doesn't seem to be available on raspbian either from apt-get or pip, dunno about C libraries.
[18:58] <akk> richstewart: I don't actually know, maybe look in that stackexchange thread?
[18:59] <Tenkawa> umm
[18:59] <Tenkawa> that file is in raspbian
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[19:00] <Tenkawa> you havent updated your repo properly
[19:00] <Tenkawa> i see that module
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[19:01] <Tenkawa> on my pi 3 apt lookup
[19:01] <kre10s> hello. what is the purpose of the /etc/shadow- file?
[19:01] <Tenkawa> in python-alsaaudio
[19:01] <gordonDrogon> kre10s, it's a security feature.
[19:01] <Habbie> kre10s, it's a backup of the previous version of /etc/shadow
[19:01] <gordonDrogon> kre10s, it's a 'shadow' of /etc/passwd.
[19:01] <Habbie> kre10s, and /etc/shadow is what gordonDrogon is saying
[19:01] <gordonDrogon> doh!
[19:01] * ZetFury (~ZetFury@unaffiliated/zetfury) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[19:01] <gordonDrogon> I missed the - at the end.
[19:02] <gordonDrogon> yes, - -> backup.
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[19:02] <Habbie> by our powers combined, gordonDrogon :)
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[19:03] <akk> richstewart: Interesting, you're right, after another apt-get update I see it. It wasn't there before.
[19:03] <gordonDrogon> anyway, in the olden days, there was just /etc/passwd and it held usernames and hashed passwords, but when the hash algorithm was found to be weak (computers got faster), they split it out, so that shadow was root readable only.
[19:04] <Tenkawa> akk: correct.. you have to run that to keep your repository updated
[19:04] <gordonDrogon> this didn't work at all, but it remains one of those legacys.
[19:04] <kre10s> ah. I'm trying to reset the password because I forgot it. I changed the shadow file to not contain a password. it now reads pi::17331:0:99999:7:::
[19:04] <akk> Tenkawa: I ran my last apt-get update about a week ago, maybe things were messed up then.
[19:04] <gordonDrogon> kre10s, sudo passwd pi
[19:04] <kre10s> I cannot log in.
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[19:04] <akk> Actually I think it was more like 2 weeks ago.
[19:04] <Tenkawa> or it wasnt sucessful
[19:05] <gordonDrogon> kre10s, oh - well, you're stuck unless you have another Linux system that can read the SD carx.
[19:05] <Tenkawa> it rolls back chages
[19:05] <gordonDrogon> *SD card.
[19:05] <Tenkawa> er changes
[19:05] <Habbie> can't you boot raspbian to a root shell?
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[19:06] <kre10s> I tried the /boot/cmdline.txt trick but still gives a login prompt.
[19:06] <kre10s> how do i boot to root?
[19:06] <Habbie> what did you put in cmdline.txt?
[19:06] <kre10s> init=/bin/sh
[19:06] <akk> But neither alsaaudio.Mixer('Master', 0) nor alsaaudio.Mixer('PCM', 0) actually works on my pi (neither does amixer, I guess there's something wrong with the sound setup).
[19:07] <kre10s> Does this feature require a recent version of raspbian? mine might be a little old. from a year ago maybe.
[19:07] <Tenkawa> akk: that part I cannot help with.. I only use bluetooth and headphones so far
[19:07] <Tenkawa> on mine
[19:08] <akk> I've done audio via the headphone jack on Pi 1 and via a gpio pin on pi 0 but not on this pi 3, I guess.
[19:09] <akk> Oh, I think I disabled audio in /boot/config.txt because it conflicted with something like the serial console.
[19:10] <Tenkawa> ahhh
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[19:11] <richstewart> I'm using VERSION 9.
[19:12] <kre10s> fixed it by generating a new password with openssl passwd -1
[19:13] <kre10s> apparently you cannot set an empty password
[19:14] <akk> Okay, re-enabled it and now it works, mixer = alsaaudio.Mixer('PCM', 0); mixer.getvolume()
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[19:14] <akk> It only seems to be one channel. Does the pi3 not do stereo?
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[19:15] <red9> What is WCHAN=n_tty_ when doing a 'ps' listing?
[19:16] <akk> amixer says: Simple mixer control 'PCM',0 ... Playback channels: Mono
[19:16] <richstewart> Mine has 2 cards. The first card has 7 subdevices (channels), the second card is HDMI.
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[19:18] <akk> (/boot/config.txt has: dtparam=audio=on, start_x=1, gpu_mem=128
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[19:20] <richstewart> "ps -elf" is quite verbose. What process am I looking for?
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[19:24] <richstewart> The taskbar is handling those values. It is "LXPanel 0.9.3". Perhaps I can figure out what they did.
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These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.