#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2018-06-01

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[16:33] -leguin.freenode.net- *** Looking up your hostname...
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[16:33] * RaspberryPiBot (~raspberry@unaffiliated/datagutt/bot/databot) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:33] * Topic is 'Unofficial RaspberryPi IRC channel but "Blessed" by the Foundation as the ONE channel. | Logs: http://srv.datagutt1.com | Rules: https://goo.gl/h5qPhz'
[16:33] * Set by gordonDrogon!~gordon@2001:4d48:ad51:8901::2 on Sat Dec 24 16:04:53 CET 2016
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[16:48] <katnip> JimBuntu:
[16:49] <JimBuntu> Salutations katnip
[16:49] <katnip> hehe
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[16:50] <katnip> power went out again last night, storm, iv tried to reformat 3 times, im just gonna get a new card for it
[16:50] * Milhouse (~Milhouse@kodi/staff/milhouse) Quit ()
[16:51] <JimBuntu> That's a good tactic, since we don't know if it's the card yet. Hopefully not something wrong with the Pi
[16:51] <katnip> correct
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[17:04] <GraysonBriggs> 15 new RPi 3Bs in, they look nice all stacked to each other
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[17:21] <gordonDrogon> clustering them, or just for general use?
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[17:30] <stiv> or little 10 watt space heaters?
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[17:34] <hotpot33> I'm running the google assistant SDK sample
[17:34] <hotpot33> but when it's recording voice, I see the voltage drop in dmesg
[17:35] <hotpot33> it only happens then
[17:35] <Choscura> how much amperage does your power supply have
[17:35] <hotpot33> I'm using a Element14 5V 3A charger
[17:35] <Choscura> that's a good start, what sort of mic is it
[17:35] <hotpot33> I don't see how it'd run out of amperage
[17:35] <Choscura> well it's dropping when the mic's on
[17:35] <hotpot33> it's a Logitech webcam
[17:35] <Choscura> hmm
[17:36] <Choscura> well, I'd get a powered USB hub and have it in that and the pi as thats' controller
[17:36] <Choscura> see if that solves it, because if it doesn't, that rules out the amperage thing
[17:36] * Karyon (~Karyon@unaffiliated/karyon) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[17:37] <hotpot33> https://www.amazon.in/QuantumZERO-External-Powered-USB-Ports/dp/B011OSM2KW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1527867415&sr=8-3&keywords=powered+USB+hub
[17:37] <hotpot33> something like this?
[17:38] <hotpot33> it costs around 22.76$
[17:38] <hotpot33> is that normal?
[17:38] <Choscura> that's a pricey one, any USB hub with an external power supply will work
[17:38] <Choscura> I would expect to spend between $10-15 for this
[17:38] <Choscura> let me see if I can find one for you
[17:39] <hotpot33> the voltage normalizes around 6 seconds later
[17:39] <hotpot33> is it going to damage the RPi in any way?
[17:40] <hotpot33> https://a.uguu.se/RfqMPBqoBOUV.png
[17:41] <hotpot33> Mine is a RPi 3B+
[17:41] <hotpot33> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1301962
[17:42] <hotpot33> these people are saying those alerts might be wrong
[17:42] <Choscura> my pi is not loving this amazon bullshit, lol
[17:42] * cave (~various@h081217094244.dyn.cm.kabsi.at) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:42] <Choscura> keeps crashing the browser on amazon.com/.in
[17:42] <Choscura> argh
[17:43] <Choscura> again, sorry, I live in an adult world, not used to censoring myself, I only do that here
[17:43] <Choscura> also why there's #raspberrypi_NSFW
[17:43] <Choscura> anyway
[17:43] <Choscura> https://www.amazon.in/Portronics-343-Charger-Charging-Station/dp/B00TGUX8T0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527867571&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+charger+hub
[17:43] <hotpot33> that's a charger
[17:44] <Choscura> that looks like it might be what I'm talking about, but the page keeps crashing before I can read ify ou can control that as a USB hub
[17:44] <Choscura> if it's a charger that's also a hub, that's perfect, that's a really good deal, 8A means you could reasonably have 3 B+'s on it etc
[17:44] <hotpot33> https://screenshots.firefox.com/dXG4mDcwlU2DsWg7/www.amazon.in
[17:44] <hotpot33> nope
[17:44] <hotpot33> that's not a USB hub
[17:44] <hotpot33> it's a charging station
[17:45] <hotpot33> it doesn't seem to be externally powered
[17:45] <Choscura> well, shit, there's gotta be something good-enough from china
[17:45] <Choscura> sec
[17:45] <Choscura> again, sorry on the profanity, not trying to be a jerk, I just actually use these words in daily life
[17:46] <hotpot33> https://www.elementzonline.com/5v-3a-dc-adapter-for-raspberry-pi-3-2-b-b-a-a-with-usb-to-microusb-cable-534?search=5v%203a&description=true
[17:46] <hotpot33> This is the one I have
[17:46] <hotpot33> well idk #raspberrypi has this weird policy
[17:47] <hotpot33> it's explicitly made for Raspberry Pi 3
[17:48] <Khaytsus> I had SO much trouble with my Pi's until I got power supplies from adafruit, not a single problem since. I was using old phone chargers.. Clearly they don't put out clean/reliable enough power for the pi, fine for charging a phone.
[17:48] <hotpot33> Khaytsus: I'm using one from Element14, and they explicitly state it's 3A and it's for RPi
[17:48] <hotpot33> so either they are scamming me or I got a defective one
[17:49] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: For me it wasn't the power. These all output plenty of power. I think it was the quality of the power. A phone charger can probably be pretty trashy and get away with it.
[17:49] <hotpot33> 'quality of power'?
[17:49] <Khaytsus> Yes. QUality of power.
[17:49] <hotpot33> what? voltage variation?
[17:49] <Khaytsus> Yes?
[17:49] <hotpot33> noise?
[17:49] <Khaytsus> Yes?
[17:49] <Khaytsus> Obvious things.
[17:50] <Choscura> the chargers thing is about the amperage
[17:50] <Khaytsus> Pi is hypersensitive to input power.
[17:50] <Choscura> hence why I brought it up above
[17:50] * Spr1ng (~Spr1ng@unaffiliated/spr1ng) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:50] <Choscura> the official chargers are 2.5 amp
[17:50] <Choscura> if you have an old phone charger, those are usually 1-2 amp
[17:50] <BurtyB> power supplies not chargers
[17:51] <hotpot33> Adafruit costs like 20$ in shipping alone lm*o
[17:51] <Choscura> charger in the context of phones
[17:51] <Khaytsus> If a shoddy charger powers the pi and isn't shutting down when the Pi is busy or such it's not the wattage that's the issue. stability is the issue for cheaper chargers.
[17:51] * KP--- (~AndChat92@unaffiliated/karan200000) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:51] <Choscura> Khaytsus, srsly, look this up, it's the amperage
[17:51] <Khaytsus> Choscura: .......k
[17:51] <Choscura> unless you mean, low amperage causes processor instability?
[17:52] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MARDJZ4 is the same thing
[17:52] <BurtyB> hotpot33, you might want to check those rules again...
[17:53] <Choscura> but, I have an old USB hub that has external power- these things are not expensive, it is very easy to get them second hand here
[17:53] <Khaytsus> Choscura: I can beat the snot out of any of my pis on any of these phone chargers and it works jsut fine, zero problems. But running 24/7/365 I'll find them rebooting or locked up. That's the pi being very sensitive to input power. Not that the chargers don't provide enough power. Need stable, clean power. Phone chargers just don't seem to provide that.
[17:53] <Choscura> and that will keep the pi on and running when I unplug the power supply
[17:53] <Choscura> and will even boot the pi when I plug it into the pi's usb ports
[17:54] <Khaytsus> Choscura: So keep in the back of your mind if you have stability issues, it's your power supply. But you can certainly try your powered hub.
[17:54] <hotpot33> BurtyB: lmo is not ok?
[17:54] <Choscura> Khaytsus, totally with you, that sounds like the phone charger being of lower grade materials and heating up/building up resistance/lowering supply, causing issues
[17:55] <Choscura> the powered hub, in addition to whatever charger you've got, makes up the difference
[17:55] <Choscura> in both cases
[17:55] <Khaytsus> Choscura: I bet if one monitored the output, it'd vary in power, voltage, noise, etc, on the phone chargers
[17:55] <Choscura> srsly, it's an awesome thing, try it
[17:55] <hotpot33> I don't think Premier Farnell would be providing trash-quality chargers repurposed as PSUs
[17:55] <Choscura> they aren't, but there are inherently limitations to all things, and we should be aware of them
[17:56] <Choscura> and, an extra line of power isn't a bad thing to have
[17:56] <Choscura> also, you might consider getting one of those battery pack things
[17:56] * AGTT (~root@modemcable146.80-162-184.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:56] <Choscura> the phone charge packs
[17:56] <Choscura> and charge that, and then feed the power from that to pi.
[17:56] <Choscura> that's like a little UPS backup system on a pi, lol
[17:57] <Khaytsus> That reminds me.. I use a pi in my car, and right now I just make sure nothing is writing to the sdcard because it's on accessory power. Been looking at this http://www.voc-electronics.com/a-36289459/power-batteries-adapters/pi-ups/ and it just seems too cheap.
[17:57] * davr0s (~textual@host86-157-70-142.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[17:57] <hotpot33> I don't know
[17:57] <Khaytsus> I'd prefer to shut the pi down clean when the power turns off
[17:57] <hotpot33> I'd just like to keep my Pi running as an assistant plus a few more things
[17:58] <hotpot33> and not get its SD card corrupted or something like
[17:58] <hotpot33> that
[17:58] <hotpot33> or damage it
[17:58] <hotpot33> I'd like the best option available
[17:58] <Choscura> guys, I've seen pis get sprayed by sprinklers and keep running
[17:58] <hotpot33> Imo using a powered USB hub while RPi has only one USB device, looks like solving the wrong problem
[17:58] <Khaytsus> I jsut back up my pi sdcards. I just assume the sdcard in it is going to get mangled eventually, even if you minimize writes.
[17:58] <Choscura> I've seen them get soaked, short out, turn off, dry out, and turn back on again undamaged
[17:59] <hotpot33> yeah I'm ok about backing up the sd card but getting the rpi burnt in a week isn't cool
[17:59] <Choscura> pis are tough, SD cards have long-term write issues but the decent ones make up for most of that, and they're cheap enough to replace. Get a handful of the 8gb ones if you're worried about short shelf life.
[17:59] <Khaytsus> I had a pi here that was my home automation one day just flip out, no obvious reason. I looked at the sdcard, it was just utterly trashed. Garbage in ramdom files, even stuff that would have been just read-only (html files, etc) It was nutty.
[18:00] <Choscura> that happens
[18:00] <Choscura> fortunately, a new SD card is cheap, and you should be keeping backups
[18:00] <hotpot33> so those dmesg messages are harmless?
[18:00] <Choscura> eh?
[18:00] <hotpot33> should I be fixing the weird PSU problems or is it fine?
[18:00] <Khaytsus> Yep. For me the backups are kind of annoying.. my pis are in weird random places, but. every few months I'll pull out the card and back it up if I've changed anything. Most of them are just doing a job though, so one backup is enough.
[18:01] <hotpot33> Or should I be looking for a better 5V 3A USB adapter
[18:01] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MARDJZ4
[18:01] <Choscura> hotpot33, get an external hub so you have half a load on both power sources so it doesn't crap out
[18:01] <Choscura> make sure your pi has a heat sync, maybe even get a fan for it, since india
[18:01] <hotpot33> I think the 0.5A is just wasted since RPi has a limit at 2.5A
[18:01] <BurtyB> hotpot33, as I said go read it again - especially the part about using * not making it ok
[18:01] <hotpot33> ah I live in the colder areas of India, it isn't hot here
[18:02] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: Are you running something that uses a lot of power on the pi's usb ports? If so, a powered hub to power that device would be better.
[18:02] <hotpot33> BurtyB: k
[18:02] <hotpot33> Khaytsus: a USB webcam by Logitech
[18:02] <hotpot33> Khaytsus: Amazon.com is not for me
[18:02] <Khaytsus> Like I use to run a rtlsdr off a pi 1 that could not provide it enough power, so I got a powered hub.
[18:02] <Choscura> and using the mic on his webcam makes the voltage drop
[18:02] <hotpot33> CanaKit doesn't ship to India
[18:02] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: Not problem.
[18:02] <Choscura> so putting it on a powered hub would be a fix even if the powered hub weren't great for pi's also
[18:02] <Khaytsus> Not my
[18:02] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: Are you actually looking for help or just whinge? Meh.
[18:02] <hotpot33> Khaytsus: recommend something that ships to India lol
[18:02] <hotpot33> wat
[18:03] * Khaytsus &
[18:03] <Choscura> he asked for the help already Khaytsus scroll up
[18:03] <Choscura> and hotpot, I'd look at a local shop there, ask around for an old USB 1 externally powered thing
[18:04] <hotpot33> I'd count on AliExpress more than local stores here
[18:04] <hotpot33> they are trash
[18:04] <Choscura> those tend to be around 3-5 amps, I think mine is 5 amps, they tend to use standard round-pin power connectors so you can get the actuall power supplies easily
[18:04] <Choscura> either way, same requirements
[18:04] <Choscura> look for this on ali, then
[18:04] <Choscura> externally powered USB hub
[18:05] <Choscura> Khaytsus, tell me more about how you pi in your car
[18:05] <hotpot33> the problem with AliExpress is the slow shipping, but I guess I have no other option but run the pi at low voltage sometimes until these arrive
[18:05] <Choscura> is it your stereo or something?
[18:05] <Choscura> well, hotpot33 you'll have to unplug it at night, basically
[18:07] <Khaytsus> Choscura: gps track logger.. so far only the end of the files it's writing gets corrupted, which is fine. I sync each write, so it only loses the last piece of data so far. Everything else is tmpfs or such.
[18:07] <Khaytsus> Choscura: and the data rsyncs to my workstation which processes it further
[18:07] <Choscura> what, logging your miles or something?
[18:07] * sigsts (~sigsts@unaffiliated/skyroverr) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:08] <hotpot33> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4-7-Port-USB-3-0-Hub-Splitter-USB-Hub-3-0-with-Individual-Power-Switches/32839726183.html?spm=2114.search0104.8.52.753d2bae9uwkdJ&priceBeautifyAB=0
[18:08] <hotpot33> is this what I want
[18:08] <Choscura> and, I've gotta meatspace away, will be back shortly
[18:09] <hotpot33> They have a photo for a AC connector
[18:09] <hotpot33> but I'm not sure if this is what I want
[18:09] <Khaytsus> Choscura: I'm a dork, I have tracklog data back to 2007. And scripts to give me info, like miles total, or when is the last time i was near x,y, etc... plus the same database is used for my photography to geotag etc.
[18:09] <Choscura> lol
[18:09] <Choscura> yep, we're the same species of dork it sounds like, you've just started earlier
[18:09] <Khaytsus> Data from multiple sources go into it.. directly from phone, bluetooth gps tracklog, car tracklog, tablet, etc..
[18:10] <Choscura> also don't forget #raspberrypi_NSFW
[18:10] <Khaytsus> nsfw is me powering directly on accessory.. but so far it's okay.
[18:10] * GraysonBriggs (~GraysonBr@206-51-126-226.up.net) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[18:11] <Khaytsus> I'd really like to let it power down clean. I don't want it running when the car is off though, so acc off? shut down cleanly, off.
[18:11] <Choscura> srsly it's a thing, go check it out, you're allowed to swear there
[18:11] <Choscura> but no human trafficking/gun running/etc
[18:11] <Khaytsus> Well that's a shame, those are my favorite topics.
[18:11] * egavin (~egavin@24.red-217-126-80.staticip.rima-tde.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:11] <Choscura> gun construction is allowed, we just can't actually help facilitate the sales
[18:11] <hotpot33> guys, is this ok? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4-7-Port-USB-3-0-Hub-Splitter-USB-Hub-3-0-with-Individual-Power-Switches/32839726183.html?spm=2114.search0104.8.52.753d2bae9uwkdJ&priceBeautifyAB=0
[18:11] <Khaytsus> um.. noted
[18:12] * KP--- (~AndChat92@unaffiliated/karan200000) Quit (Quit: Bye)
[18:12] <hotpot33> can't understand what USB 'splitter' means
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[18:12] <hotpot33> is that the same thing as USB externally powered hub?
[18:12] * Azlux (~Azlux@unaffiliated/azlux) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[18:12] <Choscura> hotpot33, not that, you want that with a wall charger attached to it
[18:13] * Azlux (~Azlux@unaffiliated/azlux) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:13] <Khaytsus> Choscura: that has a 5v input but probably doesn't provide one
[18:13] <hotpot33> there are options
[18:13] <hotpot33> and in one of the options there's a option for EU plug
[18:13] <Choscura> if it has that, get the highest-amperage 5v connector you can find and power it with that
[18:13] <hotpot33> India uses EU plug AFAIK
[18:14] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: What duty is this going to serve? 24/7/365 operation? If so I _bet_ you will find that unstable.
[18:14] <hotpot33> well wtf I have to get a 5V adapter now? if I get a 5V adapter why wouldn't I buy a female barrel jack connector a USB female connector?
[18:14] * Ben64 (~Ben64@unaffiliated/ben64) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[18:15] <Khaytsus> For using and hosing around with and it's not stable that's okay? I'm sure it's fine.
[18:15] <hotpot33> Khaytsus: it's an assistant, so..
[18:15] <Khaytsus> pi+hub+power+trouble < google home mini or amazon echo
[18:15] * Khaytsus shrugs
[18:15] <hotpot33> this is one of the reason I like ODROID products, they use barrel jacks
[18:16] <hotpot33> Khaytsus: Google Home Mini can't play FMM
[18:16] <hotpot33> FM*
[18:16] <hotpot33> or radios
[18:16] <hotpot33> Pi can
[18:16] <hotpot33> (I'm going to make it play radio)
[18:16] <hotpot33> that's the main reason I'm using a pi, it's hackable
[18:17] * Stromeko (~Stromeko@unaffiliated/stromeko) Quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[18:17] <hotpot33> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PCS-High-quality-IC-program-5V-3A-EU-plug-USB-Charger-Power-Adapter-with-USB-Charger/32670861175.html
[18:17] <hotpot33> it says high quality
[18:17] <hotpot33> and it's cheap
[18:17] <hotpot33> I don't know
[18:17] <hotpot33> 5 star rating tho
[18:18] <Khaytsus> HIGH QUALITY
[18:18] <Khaytsus> Must be
[18:18] <hotpot33> yeah that's the main problem
[18:18] <hotpot33> it says high quality, that somehow gives it negative points to me
[18:18] <hotpot33> that's something shady sellers would put
[18:19] * Stromeko (~Stromeko@unaffiliated/stromeko) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:19] <hotpot33> and its shipping is more expensive than the product
[18:19] <hotpot33> but it's still cheaper than E14
[18:20] <hotpot33> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-high-quality-5v-3a-Micro-Usb-Ac-dc-Power-Adapter-EU-Plug-Charger-Supply-5v3a/32662355464.html
[18:20] <hotpot33> > Usage: Raspberry Pi Zero Tablet Pc Other The
[18:20] <hotpot33> says raspberry pi
[18:20] <hotpot33> I don't know, why is powering a pi all it needs so hard?
[18:21] <hotpot33> https://www.elementzonline.com/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-accessories-110/stontronics-t5875dv-official-2-5a-5-1v-power-supply-designed-for-use-with-the-raspberry-pi-3-model-b-uk-euro-usa-aus-264
[18:22] <hotpot33> this is the official PSU
[18:22] <hotpot33> it's somehow more expensive than the 320 INR 5v 3A adapter
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[18:27] <hotpot33> Idk why I even bother about RPi anymore
[18:28] <hotpot33> I'll just ask Element customer support (they friendly) about if it's defect with their USB adapter
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[18:30] <hotpot33> this kit is brand new though
[18:31] <Khaytsus> hotpot33: because pi's have no input filtering, no input buffering. It needs pure, clean input power. It's for size and cost.
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[18:36] <BurtyB> tbh if your "5v" supply drops below 4.7v then I'd hardly blame the Pi for your issues
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[18:39] <hotpot33> BurtyB: the thing is I can't tell whose fault it is, is the Element14 adapter trash or is the pi defective
[18:39] <Choscura> ok, back
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[18:40] <hotpot33> I might as well put a potentiometer-based voltage regulator to be sure using the USB male/female sockets I found on eBay
[18:40] <Choscura> same issue? lol
[18:40] <Khaytsus> Choscura: non-issue, yes, he's still whinging
[18:41] <Choscura> whinging?
[18:41] <Choscura> anyway, hotpot33, powered USB hub, maybe mobile battery pack that acts as a balast for your charger to supply constant power
[18:42] * orti (~orti@p5DE56BA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:44] <Choscura> again, if you plug a powered USB hub into a pi's usb port, it can boot that way and it can be kept on without the pi's power supply plugged in
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[18:49] <hotpot33> tried this older 5.1V 2.4A PSU I have (I forgot its name), same problem
[18:49] <hotpot33> Choscura: that'd be fine if I actually found a fairly priced powered USB hub
[18:49] <hotpot33> mobile battery pack? one that provides USB output? where?
[18:51] <Choscura> between pi and wall power supply
[18:51] <Choscura> as long as it has sufficient amperage out, at least
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[19:31] <JimBuntu> If it drops TO 4.7v I wouldn't blame the Pi. USB spec says 5V+/-0.25V as the extremes.
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[19:33] <JimBuntu> hotpot33, powering a Pi doesn't need to be difficult... the reason it isn't as easy as most USB devices is because many of the Pi devices want more power than most USB hubs can output on a single node. USB was designed for ~500mA... after negotiation. Then other specs started to play in and now there is a whole 'charging' mode with higher output... sadly, many Pi still want more than that.
[19:33] <JimBuntu> Especially more than the "industry standard" 2.1A output for most modern mobile phones/etc.
[19:33] <Khaytsus> JimBuntu: and the pi has no buffering or filtering
[19:34] <JimBuntu> Khaytsus, most USB powered devices have no buffering or filtering... that's part of the spec for the INPUT SUPPLY to deal with.
[19:34] <Khaytsus> Fair enough
[19:34] <JimBuntu> The Pi uses the microUSB for power as a convenience to us users... instead of it being a barrel plug or such. I don't mind it, but it often leads to confusion.
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[19:36] <Khaytsus> Yeah, just because you can plug it into your old USB 1.1 port and it can work doesn't mean it's going to work well, or with anything plugged into the pi
[19:36] <Khaytsus> but even at that, it takes some pretty clean power input to the Pi to work with stability.
[19:37] <JimBuntu> Exactly. Is the Pi even USB Certified? I notice my packaging doesn't use the logo, nor have I noticed it on the official web page.
[19:40] <JimBuntu> Since the Pi can brownout if supplying spec'd power to the hub for client devices, I doubt that it is. If a device is going to negotiate an output power level, it needs to actually be capable of supplying that output.
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[19:52] <hotpot33> well the official universal Pi PSU is the greatest of them all, right?
[19:53] <hotpot33> If I use that, I'd be guaranteed getting no problems since the RPi Foundation itself manufactures these
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[20:02] <JimBuntu> It's the suggested, official power supply, yes.
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[20:11] <Choscura> official is best, close second is a good solid 2 amp and a good solid 2+amp externally powered hub that is also supplying current
[20:13] <GenteelBen> You're the suggested, official power supply, JimBuntu.
[20:14] <JimBuntu> Vroom, Vroom!
[20:15] <JimBuntu> To follow up on that topic, I would say the BIGGEST issue by far, is manufacturer/distributors lying about the capabilities and certifications of their power supplies.
[20:15] <Khaytsus> And shoddy manufacturing and qa
[20:16] <Choscura> the manufacturing is generally acceptable
[20:16] <Choscura> as in, you can use the part physically
[20:16] <Choscura> that's not the issue in most cases
[20:16] <Choscura> it's just that they're manufacturing inferior items and marking up the specs
[20:17] <Choscura> But, this is also why multiple parallel supplies overcome this
[20:18] <Choscura> doesn't matter if your supply runs at half its stated capacity if two of them together run the pi + hub at a third each
[20:20] <JimBuntu> The only concern then is that the supplies could still hit a point where they bottom out the voltage, much lessened of an issue in this case.
[20:20] <Choscura> right, that whole redundancy thing
[20:21] <Choscura> they'd have to both bottom out at once, etc
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[20:22] <Choscura> hmmmm
[20:22] <Choscura> I kind of wonder
[20:22] * heym0e (~heym0e@76-237-90-194.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) Quit ()
[20:23] <Choscura> what if you did power supply -> pi ->( + power supply 2) ->USB hub -> micro USB charger for battery pack -> male to male back to USB hub
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[20:31] <shbrngdo> I am pretty sure that a battery charger will either go into 'charge mode' or 'discharge mode' but not do both. most likely it would end up "floating"
[20:31] * s8548a (~s8548a@unaffiliated/s8548a) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[20:31] <Choscura> well, if it's charging, let it be in charge mode, and if the current cuts out, it can be in discharge mode
[20:31] <ali1234> it depends entirely on the charger
[20:31] <Choscura> if the voltage drops it can switch and make up the difference
[20:31] <Choscura> etc
[20:31] <Choscura> and, yes
[20:31] <shbrngdo> the best way to manage that would be to plug a supply into the battery pack, then from there, drive the load.
[20:32] <Choscura> but it's a doable thing
[20:32] <ali1234> you can design them to operate this way, but most do not
[20:32] <Choscura> right
[20:32] <shbrngdo> normally the battery pack will supply the power regardless, so the charger will keep the battery 'topped off' until it drops out, in which case you're on pure battery (like a UPS)
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[20:32] <Choscura> right
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[20:32] <Choscura> that's the intent
[20:32] <ali1234> for lipo batteries there is an additional complication
[20:33] <ali1234> lipos should not be trickle charged
[20:33] <Choscura> do tell
[20:33] <Choscura> well, capacitors, lol
[20:33] <ali1234> and the charger detects when the battery is full by measuring the current draw
[20:33] <Choscura> can they be intermittently charged at full voltage? or should it all be at once?
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[20:33] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - actually you're wrong. LiPo's SHOULD be trickle charged. they'll last longer that way. let the charge controller manage that
[20:33] <ali1234> so if you are also powering a load from the charger, the charger will not shut off correctly
[20:33] <ali1234> it will continue to charger the battery after it is full
[20:33] <ali1234> this can lead to it exploding
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[20:33] <Choscura> ali1234, you have a very good point about how this will fuck with a load control unit by being not what it expects
[20:34] <Choscura> but, I think this is a relatively straightforward problem to solve
[20:34] <ali1234> yes it is, but eg, cheap chinese battery packs will not do this
[20:34] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - sorry, you're wrong again. there are 2 things that will make a LiPo explode: one is a short circuit. the other is mechanical damage
[20:34] <ali1234> okay well good luck :)
[20:34] <shbrngdo> mechanical damage is kind of like the short circuit. Now, if you OVER-DISCHARGE a LiPo, it'll form gas which will turn it into a pillow
[20:34] <Choscura> also temperature changes etc
[20:34] <ali1234> don't say i didn't warn ya
[20:35] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - I've done a lot of work with LiPo batteries in embedded equipment, and designed the battery charge circuits etc. for a customer device. so yeah.
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[20:36] <JimBuntu> shbrngdo, but isn't the minty smell worth it?
[20:36] <shbrngdo> all of the history in the project proved that when battery voltage drops below a certain point, you can't allow a trickle discharge - you have to cut out all current loads down to microamps, or the battery will swell up over time
[20:36] <Choscura> well, solveable problems, still
[20:36] <shbrngdo> "minty smell" - that's not how I'd describe it - more like a funky chemical smell that I can't identify any other way than "insides of a LiPo"
[20:36] <Choscura> and, we know about needing to solve them
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[20:37] <Choscura> eh, some people think cyanide smells like almonds
[20:37] <JimBuntu> shbrngdo, Ah, for me, I call it 'minty'... spearmint to be more precise
[20:37] <Choscura> some people think cilantro tastes of soap
[20:37] <shbrngdo> heh
[20:37] <JimBuntu> The ones who are lucky enough to smell cyanide do
[20:37] <Choscura> 'lucky' isn't exactly how I'd describe it, lol
[20:37] <shbrngdo> I've heard cyanide smells like almonds.
[20:37] <JimBuntu> It's saved many-a-life
[20:38] <Choscura> it's not actually almonds, and there's a meme about cyanide chocolates to kill jews floating around from ww2
[20:38] <JimBuntu> If you watch those CSI shows, it's solved crimes too, but in reality, I think a coroner's last wish is to smell the breath of a corpse that was brought in
[20:38] <Choscura> the guys I've seen describe it say "a cross between almonds and sulfuric acid" because smelling it burns
[20:38] <shbrngdo> I accidentally shorted a LiPo [didn't see a tiny solder bridge in a board I modified] and it swelled up in seconds, started to melt plastic underneath it. I quickly disconnected it, rushed to a sink and poured water on it for 30 seconds after which it suddenly collapsed down. didn't charge after that though
[20:39] <JimBuntu> water + Lithium = not good
[20:39] <shbrngdo> well the battery was sealed. I was trying to keep it from going 'boom'
[20:39] <zleap> indeed
[20:39] <zleap> well most liquids and lithim not good
[20:39] <zleap> lithium
[20:39] <JimBuntu> We purposefully stressed tons of cells in order to gauge if/when they would get dangerous, most were OK, some were terrible
[20:40] <shbrngdo> however - disposing of a LiPo - the safest way is to cut it in half with scissors, then immediately dunk it in a glass/bucket/whatever of water
[20:40] <shbrngdo> let it 'fizz' for a while, then pour out the liquid (which will be LiOH infused - good for cleaning drains) and the rest can be tossed since the 'toxic' chemicals will be gone
[20:40] <JimBuntu> very fast corrosion
[20:40] <Choscura> trollface.gif
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[20:41] <shbrngdo> JimBuntu - since the water leaks kinda slowly into the LiPo, it won't explode on you, but it will deplete the Lithium. but just in case I'd cover it and stand back
[20:41] <JimBuntu> "Energy Drink" ? lol. Don't do that
[20:41] <Choscura> so no wonder so many meth labs somehow get leases signed. The land lords want them to clean the drains with the by-chemicals.
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[20:42] <JimBuntu> KOH is strong enough for my drains
[20:42] <Choscura> so is hydrogen peroxide, baking soda, and boiling water
[20:42] <Choscura> generally
[20:43] <Choscura> won't actually dissolve plastics
[20:43] <zleap> no
[20:43] <shbrngdo> drano is mostly hydroxides (K and Na)
[20:43] <zleap> even if it did the plastic molecules or similar would still be there
[20:43] <shbrngdo> or you could get a bottle of 'Lewis Lye'
[20:43] <Choscura> or a bag of lye
[20:44] <zleap> which is?
[20:44] <shbrngdo> plastic isn't generally affected by strong hydroxides.
[20:44] <Choscura> lye in crystal form?
[20:44] <shbrngdo> bag, bottle, same idea
[20:44] <Choscura> if you need to get plastics out you basically need a mechanical intervention
[20:44] <Choscura> rotorooter or vacuum pump or something
[20:44] <zleap> never heard of lye
[20:44] <shbrngdo> what you'd need for homemade soap ['fight club' reference not being made... oops too late]
[20:44] <Choscura> lye is NaCl iirc
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[20:45] <shbrngdo> lye is basically NaOH plus KOH (mostly NaOH I think)
[20:45] <ali1234> acetone or sulphates will both eat most plastics
[20:45] <zleap> so salt
[20:45] * JimBuntu makes soap.
[20:45] <Choscura> and, in Thailand I used to buy 1-5 kg bags of it to clear the drain pipes of my house
[20:45] <shbrngdo> sulphates? not sure about that one. acetone for sure, though
[20:45] <Choscura> ali1234, the acetones have the problem of also eating the pipe you want to clear
[20:45] <Choscura> and dissolving the linings on metal pipes
[20:45] <shbrngdo> to dissolve polymers you need an organic solvent (like acetone, alcohols, various kinds of petroleum products)
[20:46] <Choscura> right, the problem is that these aren't very selective
[20:46] <zleap> you use the right tool / chemical for the job
[20:46] <Choscura> I've seen cool stuff in plumbing of, eg, clearing out ceramic pipes with concrete debris in them by filling the pipe with acid to eat the concrete and leave the ceramic
[20:46] <Choscura> this is possible
[20:46] <shbrngdo> iron pipes are actually helped by strong alkali since it causes the FeO corrosion to become Fe2O3 which tends to be protective of the underlying metal, rather than causing localized areas of Ferrous acid that eats the metal like a cancer
[20:47] <ali1234> well, sulphates don't dissolve it so much as make it crumble into bits
[20:47] <shbrngdo> so using strong caustics on both plastic and metal pipes is actually very good for them
[20:48] <shbrngdo> ali1234 - sulfates might somehow cause some kinds of oxidation, I suppose. I'm not sure whether or not there's some organic reaction happening with the polymers
[20:48] <Choscura> actually a stable layer of rust is the premise of 'bluing', because a surface rust prevents additional rust from going deeper, and part of the problem to deal with particularly in waste pipes is salt buildups/accretions
[20:48] <shbrngdo> sulfer reactions are used to harden rubber for tires...
[20:49] <shbrngdo> Choscura - correct - if it's the right kind of rust (Fe2O3) and not the wrong kind (FeO) it's protective
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[20:51] <zleap> vulkanize
[20:51] <zleap> iirc
[20:51] <Choscura> the vulcanization is the heating process?
[20:52] * redrabbit (~nick@unaffiliated/redrabbit) Quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
[20:55] <zleap> you just mentioned sulfur and rubber i know part of the process is called that
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[20:55] <shbrngdo> ah, I was slightly off - Fe2O3 is the bad one, Fe3O4 is the good one. 'black rust' formed by base pH
[20:55] <zleap> vulcanising is most logical :D
[20:56] * jrheaton (~jrheaton@162-235-12-210.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:56] <shbrngdo> Fe2O3 dissolves in water to form an ion which causes a slight acidity in the vicinity of the rust, which causes more rust. that's the part I was remembering.
[20:56] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:57] <shbrngdo> anyway - hydroxides are good for iron pipes
[20:57] <Choscura> you know, one of the trekky things that bugged/bugs me is how much it's basically "the christian empire in space" and how weakly irrational it makes humans. more logical beings have to not be humans? really? we need vulcans because people can't do that sort of high-grade thinking?
[20:58] <zleap> so the ions causing acidity would be mitigated by the OH alkalinity
[20:58] <Choscura> hang on
[20:58] <shbrngdo> zleap - not only that, but the Fe3O4 forms a protective coating
[20:58] <Choscura> this isn't #chemistry
[20:58] <Choscura> one of us has to put a pi + camera in a pipe now
[20:59] <zleap> lol
[20:59] <shbrngdo> in the presence of a high pH, Fe2O3 will become Fe3O4
[20:59] <zleap> PI = phosphorous iodide
[20:59] <shbrngdo> actually a pi+camera might fit in a 3" drain
[20:59] <zleap> Raspberry Pi how many elements are in there
[21:00] <shbrngdo> PI3 <-- phosphorous tri-iodide, which if it's anything like nitrogen tri-iodide, is a contact explosive
[21:00] <zleap> P phosporous Ra Radium
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[21:00] <Choscura> nitrogen is the critical ingredient, the breakable bond, in most explosives iirc
[21:00] <zleap> yeah
[21:00] <mlankhorst> how much current can I use on the 3.3v pin on the pi zero?
[21:00] <Choscura> as much as it draws at 3.3v
[21:01] <shbrngdo> Choscura - right, because it can easily be coerced into bonding with things, but it can also be coerced into NOT bonding with them
[21:01] <shbrngdo> I think phosphorous is in the same chemical group as Nitrogen... where's a periodic table
[21:01] <Choscura> shbrngdo, right, but it's *the* critical element in most explosive considerations
[21:01] <mlankhorst> I mean without causing permanent damage
[21:01] <Choscura> I think acetone peroxide has something different?
[21:01] <Choscura> would have to look it up again
[21:01] * shbrngdo confirms
[21:02] <shbrngdo> Choscura - yeah I'm just speculating that because P is also trivalent like N, that the chemicals will be similar. maybe not
[21:02] * kingarmadillo (~kingarmad@ Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[21:02] <shbrngdo> because N is a gas, rapid breakdown makes more pressure. P would give you heat, but not necessarily pressure
[21:03] <Choscura> right, but that critical thing is that bond because that snap and rebound around the nitrogen atoms breaking the big molecule into the small ones is what you need, and phosphorous may have different properties
[21:03] <Choscura> and if it's heat, you could get a high energy state
[21:03] <Choscura> maybe it would be a productive plasma
[21:03] <shbrngdo> Choscura - yep - it's worth an experiment
[21:03] <Choscura> phosphorous peroxide
[21:03] <Choscura> lol
[21:03] <shbrngdo> in any case, it should be possible to form PI3 just like you can form NI3
[21:04] * shbrngdo has made it
[21:04] <shbrngdo> heh
[21:04] <Choscura> shbrngdo, gitcherass in #raspberrypi_NSFW please, chemical dorkery is a needed consideration, lol
[21:05] <shbrngdo> heh - yeah. actually it's kinda related to RPi too. well, embedded, anyway. For the most recent customer I developed a pH detector and a salinity detector, that fit on a very small circuit board
[21:05] <Choscura> those don't last very long
[21:05] <Choscura> I hope you made separate electrode probes they can replace
[21:05] <shbrngdo> the pH detector went to an X prize competition a few years ago. The only reason it didn't win is because the ref electrode [not my design] ran out of KCl during a 2 month underwater test
[21:06] <Choscura> seems like the smart way to do this is with a mass-produced-to-tight-specification replaceable metal rod like, maybe a machine screw or something
[21:06] <Choscura> and, cool
[21:07] <shbrngdo> the salnity detector uses carbon electrodes in a 4 probe config. I did the circuity for it, someone else did the probe [it's still under patent, not my idea, just my implementation]. I made a test probe with nickel thumbtacks and 3/4" poly tubing though
[21:07] <Choscura> I've seen these deployed with the expensive, eg, octopuce etc boards, the electrodes/probes corrode, that's something that needs to be replaceable at scale
[21:08] <shbrngdo> to do a pH detector, you can use an ISFET (very tiny MOSFET with a permeable membrane window over the gate) but you still need a KCl ref electrode
[21:08] * hotpot33 (~hotpot33@unaffiliated/hotpot33) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[21:08] <Choscura> maybe the process should involve a callibration (putting probes in a glass of vinegar, taking measurements, washing, taking measurements, putting in glass with sodium bicarb, taking measurements, calibrating based on the known PH quantities)
[21:08] * Conino_ (~Conino_@ has joined #raspberrypi
[21:08] <shbrngdo> then it's just a matter of building a circuit that combines temperature compensation with "a means to measure gate to source volts"
[21:08] <Choscura> right
[21:09] <Choscura> the printed-pcb-all-in-one things take a shit and die after a couple months
[21:09] <Choscura> the brass goes green and peels off
[21:09] <shbrngdo> we had the thing measuring +/- 0.01 pH units within the desired range
[21:09] <Choscura> right, but that gets out of whack after relatively little time
[21:09] <Choscura> eg in agriculture you'd be replacing these every year
[21:09] <Choscura> that's just not a feasible plan, you need a longer term solution
[21:09] <shbrngdo> if you're measuring volatile chemicals, you can get industrial pH thingies that are the size of a pen with a digital readout
[21:10] <Choscura> right, that's a good tool, and that's a very different application
[21:10] <shbrngdo> Choscura - FYI - for soil measurements like that, the ISFET solution works the best
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[21:10] <Choscura> still the same problem of the materials most of those probes are made from
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[21:11] <Choscura> they go green and peel off
[21:11] <shbrngdo> Choscura - you have to make the thing completely waterproof [customer project is always under water]
[21:11] <Choscura> of course, that's not hard
[21:11] <Choscura> fiberglass, hot glue, epoxy, etc
[21:11] * tdy (~tdy@unaffiliated/tdy) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:11] <Choscura> also the vacuum cleaner trick is cool
[21:12] <shbrngdo> well, a process involving fiberglass and resin is probably the most reliable
[21:12] * clearcasting (~clearcast@ has joined #raspberrypi
[21:12] <shbrngdo> vacuum forming gets the bubbleso ut
[21:12] <shbrngdo> out
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[21:12] <Choscura> not vacuum forming, lol, not a hot sheet of plastic
[21:12] <Choscura> but yes, you get the idea
[21:12] * nevodka (~nevodka@ Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[21:12] * markmcb (~markmcb@ Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[21:12] <shbrngdo> and as it turns out, if you can include the battery and wireless charging / wireless data extraction, you can embed the entire thing, make it waterproof, and so on
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[21:12] <shbrngdo> hence, customer project
[21:13] * nevodka (~nevodka@ has joined #raspberrypi
[21:13] <shbrngdo> [I'm still under NDA even though development stopped on it a while ago; it's actually in use right now]
[21:13] <Choscura> fastest way is a bag full of goo with the wires connected and tested inside, fill with a bit of fiberglass to keep the electronics from poking the bag, and basically just close it and seal as much as possible and vacuum out
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[21:13] <Choscura> shbrngdo, you're not working for iunu are you ? lol
[21:13] * jrheaton (~jrheaton@162-235-12-210.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
[21:14] <shbrngdo> Choscura - nope. different people. did most of the electronics and nearly all of the firmware, the test fixture [which uses an RPi for a 'bed of nails' and firmware flasher]
[21:14] * Deusdeorum (~Deusdeoru@unaffiliated/deusdeorum) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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[21:15] <shbrngdo> RPi 2 worked perfectly for that, drives an inexpensive LCD, has some buttons (yes, no, power). ATX Raspi for the power control part.
[21:15] <shbrngdo> the test bench software is literally a shell script and a C language utility to do the LCD screen
[21:15] <shbrngdo> bluetooth connectivity is achieved by careful firmware flashes and bluez tools
[21:16] <shbrngdo> [that way you can run more than one of these at the same time without bluetooth interference - autodiscover of the BT's mac address by the RPi using bluez tools]
[21:16] <Choscura> well, cool, make an open-source version the way you wish you'd been able to when you're done, lol
[21:17] <shbrngdo> actually the device _is_ open source since it's based on Arduino code and uses GPLv3 libraries for things like the SD card. it was unavoidable, really
[21:17] <Choscura> get the R&D expense account and put it to good use outside the command heirarchy of the people who don't have as good a picture of the possibilities
[21:17] <Choscura> well, then you can talk about that, and just not their specific deployments
[21:17] <Choscura> lol
[21:17] <shbrngdo> Choscura - if I could get funding to take this thing and make it a "10k/month" manufactured product, I would
[21:18] <Choscura> why does it need that? is it at that level already?
[21:18] <shbrngdo> unfortunately the owner doesn't think like that. it's more like "build 1000 then stop"
[21:18] <Choscura> eh, if it is open source
[21:18] * BOKALDO (~BOKALDO@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[21:18] <Choscura> I kind of want to get my online store built, I need to work more on this
[21:19] <shbrngdo> Choscura - yeah, well I don't wanna say anythign _BAD_ about it or how it's being managed. The device itself is mostly my doing
[21:19] <Choscura> but my premise is, if you have an open source thing, you can list that as a product for sale, and if somebody wants one, they can buy it off you, you make it and make it work and you send it off
[21:19] <shbrngdo> and the firmware can be SO specific to YOUR device that it's cheaper to buy yours and not develop your own
[21:19] <Choscura> or they can buy the parts off you, or they can source parts themselves and hit you up for quality control/trouble shooting for a smaller fee
[21:20] <shbrngdo> and then there are cloud services and subscriptions, etc. for "extras" - these are all possibilities in a 'for profit' world.
[21:20] <Choscura> eh, those are all in your ballpark if you want to do that
[21:21] <shbrngdo> I had lots of plans in my head for making it desirable in a 'for profit' world. Unfortunately, like I said, the person who owns it didn't want to do it that way
[21:21] * SebastienThiry (~Thunderbi@217.82-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) Quit (Quit: SebastienThiry)
[21:21] <Choscura> I'm focused on hardware devices, not cloud services, although I do have a content serving thing I'm working on and an idea for a graph architecture to let devices network around central nodes like, say, mobile networks, agnostic of them
[21:21] <Choscura> lol
[21:21] * greggerz (~greggerz@unaffiliated/greggerz) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[21:21] <Choscura> where are you located?
[21:21] <shbrngdo> San diego
[21:22] <Choscura> well, I'm in seattle and not staying here, let's get together this summer sometime maybe.
[21:22] <Choscura> hackathon + coffee + cannabis + lunch or something
[21:22] <shbrngdo> interesting. not sure how possible that would be... and I'll skip the cannabis
[21:23] <Choscura> no worries.
[21:23] <shbrngdo> it's "legal" here though
[21:23] <shbrngdo> as far as business goes, though, without investors there's really not much
[21:24] <Choscura> and, I'm road-tripping cross country this year, I'm already interested in seeing california, it's a profitable uber market to drive in to fund this sort of stuff, so it's an option we can talk seriously about if you like
[21:24] <shbrngdo> I can self-invest a lot. I have at least 3 projects on the burner that could become crowd-source. 2 are music-related, one is software
[21:24] <Choscura> we're both in the same boat of "making cool shit sans investors/intelligent oversight"
[21:24] <Choscura> right now, I gotta meatspace away
[21:25] <Choscura> srsly, go idle in #raspberrypi_NSFW, there's other people, it's not my sex dungeon, I promise
[21:25] <shbrngdo> later then
[21:25] <shbrngdo> heh - NSFW
[21:25] <Choscura> well, you're allowed to say "firetruck" in it without the ire.
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[21:27] <Choscura> last thought shbrngdo do you have a hackaday.io page or a github
[21:27] <Choscura> I've got 'choscura' on both
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[23:04] <Encrypt> Hello guys
[23:04] <Encrypt> I have a question regarding the systemd-timesyncd service on Raspbian Stretch
[23:05] * energizer (~energizer@unaffiliated/energizer) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[23:05] <Encrypt> It seems it should synchronise the time at startup
[23:05] <Encrypt> But where are the NTP addresses configured ?
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[23:05] <Encrypt> I had a look in: /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf
[23:06] <Encrypt> Oh
[23:06] <Encrypt> The commented servers are compile time defaults
[23:06] <Encrypt> Well...
[23:06] <Encrypt> Mokay: |
[23:07] <Encrypt> In that case, I have another question
[23:07] <Encrypt> Is the daemon running by default?
[23:07] <Encrypt> Or does it only try to get the correct date at startup?
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These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.