#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2018-08-01

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[0:02] <artok> well even then start with raspbian
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[0:05] <sushi__> okay, is raspbian just better or arch linux is hard to install?
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[0:13] <akk> sushi__: raspbian is much more standard -- it'll be a lot easier to find help when you have questions.
[0:13] <artok> you'll find more documents on raspbian + debian derivates
[0:13] <akk> There's nothing wrong with arch, it's just not a common choice on RPi.
[0:13] <artok> (other debian derivates)
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[0:15] <sushi__> okay, thanks for info
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[0:23] <shauno> arch does have a pretty impressive wiki though
[0:23] <akk> sushi__: I'd also suggest regular raspbian rather than NOOBS, if possible; NOOBS adds some differences that sometimes make things harder to debug.
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[0:24] <akk> Oh, yes, the arch wiki is wonderful regardless of what distro you run.
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[0:24] <sushi__> i bought SD card with NOOBS on it, i was recommended to install from there :O
[0:26] <akk> Oh, well, not a big deal, NOOBS will probably work. But if you hit snags, keep it in mind that you can always switch to regular raspbian if you want.
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[1:35] <arahael> Doesn't NOOBS include raspbian?
[1:38] <Khaytsus> Yes, noobs just has more gui.. do you need that? I've never used anything but raspbian myself, although I have a specific use for each of my Pis
[1:39] <ShorTie> maybe, depends n the version you get
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[1:39] <arahael> Khaytsus: Not as such, no, but doesn't Noobs *specifically contain raspbian*? It just tasksel's "desktop environment" or something, right?
[1:39] <ShorTie> s/n/on/
[1:40] <Khaytsus> Yes, afaik it's just raspbian with a ui.. as long as you didn't get 'lite' or something. NO idea waht that is
[1:40] <arahael> I do intend to check out what using it as a "desktop" is like, though. :)
[1:40] <arahael> Khaytsus: All I know is that I have an SDCard that has Noobs on it. Not allowed to use this yet... It's a gift for me on friday and I'm not allowed to use it earlier!
[1:41] <ShorTie> NOOBS is not a full operating system
[1:41] <ShorTie> it just loads the os
[1:41] <ShorTie> it can have many os's
[1:41] <arahael> So it's a boot loader.
[1:41] <ShorTie> basically, ya
[1:42] <Khaytsus> Ah, so you're a pi noob
[1:42] * Khaytsus lets that sink in
[1:42] * Khaytsus slinks off slowl
[1:42] <arahael> Bought myself a nice HDMI->DVI-D adapter, too. Stupid "oxygen-free" copper cables, but anyway.
[1:42] <arahael> Khaytsus: I'm indeed a Pi Noob.
[1:42] <Khaytsus> HDMI cables are suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch a rip off
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[1:42] <Khaytsus> Get it off amazon or those other places
[1:43] <ShorTie> it's great for like schools, because it can install a fresh os quickly
[1:43] <Khaytsus> But like in a box store? Lord. Come out rubbing your ass.
[1:43] <arahael> Khaytsus: I got it from one of those discount stores.
[1:43] <arahael> $16, which is a reasonable price considering it's from a local store, and I'm Australian. We pay the pacific tax.
[1:44] <arahael> 1.8M, too.
[1:44] <arahael> brb, gotta top up my mobile data.
[1:44] <stiv> nothing wrong with being a pi noob. it's a brave, new world!
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[1:46] <arahael> Back.
[1:47] <arahael> Yeah, actually this will be a CPU upgrade for me, for my current home server (which does little more than routing).
[1:47] <arahael> Memory downgrade, though.
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[1:47] <arahael> Current server is an ancient 8-year-old Intel Atom cpu, but with 2GB ram, iirc.
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[2:04] * Tenacious-Techhu (4911e54d@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[2:05] <BurtyB> arahael, depends what you're serving but a 10yr old atom may be the better solution vs a pi
[2:06] <arahael> BurtyB: I wouldn't be so sure about that.
[2:06] <arahael> BurtyB: For instance, the Pi's network is faster.
[2:06] * ephemer0l_ (~ephemer0l@pentoo/user/ephemer0l) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[2:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> O.K., so I'm trying to write a script to do some "first boot" configuration stuff automatically, like destroying the pi user and replacing it with something more secure, but I'm having trouble; I do "sudo su" to switch to root, switch to a virtual console, and then I do "skill -KILL -u pi", which should kill the pi user and let me obliterate it, but the terminal session goes with it, presumably because I haven't *actuall
[2:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> ?
[2:07] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: "sudo su" is completely pointless.
[2:08] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: "sudo" runs the following as - by default root. The application you're wanting to run as root, is "su"?
[2:08] <BurtyB> arahael, the atom most likely has real ethernet tho vs the pi with it hung off usb 2
[2:08] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: "su", also runs the following as - by default, root...
[2:08] <arahael> BurtyB: Right, the atom has real 100mb/s ethernet.
[2:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, "sudo su" lets you run multiple commands as root, rather than just one command as root.
[2:09] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: So does sudo.
[2:09] <Tenacious-Techhu> It saves a lot of pointless "sudo" ing.
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[2:09] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: You could run 'sudo bash', or 'sudo -i', if you were to read the man page for it.
[2:10] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: But running many commands as root smells as something that isn't right. YOu need to run as little as possible as root.
[2:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, it may not always be wise, but it is not pointless.
[2:10] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: It's completely pointless.
[2:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> Regardless, that line of discussion is nowhere near what I am trying to accomplish.
[2:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> As I said, it is not pointless, as it lets you run multiple commands as root.
[2:11] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: I run multiple commands as root without su, all the time.
[2:11] <BurtyB> "sudo -i" does it for me :)
[2:11] <arahael> Yeah, already mentioned that. :)
[2:11] <Tenacious-Techhu> "sudo bash" takes up more characters, and "sudo -i", while the same number of characters, is marginally more difficult to get to at speed.
[2:12] <ShorTie> i just login as root from the get go
[2:12] <arahael> ShorTie: That would actually be better than 'sudo su'.
[2:12] <Tenacious-Techhu> Regardless, I didn't come here to ask about "best practices for sudo"; if I wanted to know about that, I would search for it.
[2:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'm asking how I permanantly switch to root so that when I kill the pi user, the whole thing doesn't shut down on me.
[2:13] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Anyway, your question was truncated. The reason the terminal session went with it, was because, I assume, you're logged in as pi.
[2:13] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: pi is running bash. Which runs sudo, which runs su, which runs the command to kill the parent's parent's parent.
[2:13] <Tenacious-Techhu> I assume that too, but that doesn't really point me in the direction of how to accomplish my goal.
[2:14] <d0rm0us3> 3 step minimum.. create/add a su equiv user, logout and login as the su equiv user..
[2:15] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'd also ask for a more graceful way of logging out the pi user than the skill command, but I don't want to give you another tangent to sidetrack my original question.
[2:15] <d0rm0us3> If works then you could do whatever to the pi user..
[2:16] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: You could perhaps run `ps f`, and selectively kill the process you're interested in. You don't even need sudo at all, since it's the same user.
[2:16] <Tenacious-Techhu> d0rm0us3, I'm not sure that actually solves anything, because we still would have switched to that user from the pi user... while a reboot would take care of that, it would complicate the script.
[2:16] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Wait? A script? It's starting something and then you want to kill it?
[2:17] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Take note of the PID and store it somewhere
[2:17] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, as I said; I'm trying to start the script from the pi user, switch to root, wipe out the pi user, and then set up new users.
[2:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> Apparently, I'm not logging in to root fully.
[2:18] <Tenacious-Techhu> Presumably, there aught to be some way to log into root that would allow me to then kill off the pi user.
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[2:23] <BurtyB> Tenacious-Techhu, how about "sudo /bin/bash -c '/some/path/script-to-kill-pi-user.sh &'" ?
[2:23] * Cobalt (~cobalt@unaffiliated/sinnerman) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[2:25] <Tenacious-Techhu> BurtyB, why is an additional script necessary?
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[2:27] <BurtyB> Tenacious-Techhu, well it could be the same script with a parameter or check the uid or something but it need to start it as root not from the pi user you're killing processes for
[2:28] <Tenacious-Techhu> Isn't there a way to permanantly switch to root from the pi user?
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[2:31] <Khaytsus> Tenacious-Techhu: besides sudo ?
[2:32] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, apparently, sudo doesn't cut it in this case, because even though we should have switched to root already, when we kill the pi user, the virtual console gets taken out too.
[2:32] <Khaytsus> wat
[2:33] <BurtyB> Khaytsus, that wouldn't help as Tenacious-Techhu wants to kill all "pi" user processes and the bash/sudo/etc are all still running as user "pi".
[2:33] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Perhaps you could sudo sudo sudo su?
[2:33] <Khaytsus> good lord, don't sudo su.. sudo -s
[2:33] <OO-Dragon> even if you do something like sudo -u root ?
[2:33] <Tenacious-Techhu> BurtyB, no, I don't want to be running as user "pi" anymore.
[2:33] <Khaytsus> BurtyB: I can't imagine why anyone would want to do this.
[2:33] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'm trying to switch to root permanantly.
[2:34] <Khaytsus> Tenacious-Techhu: create a new user
[2:34] <Khaytsus> And no, using root full time is nonsense.
[2:34] <Khaytsus> Learn to use things right
[2:34] <BurtyB> yay to the nonsense world I live in :)
[2:34] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, I may well wind up taking that road, but I'd still prefer to have my original question answered.
[2:34] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, not nonsense, just a high security risk
[2:34] <Khaytsus> No, it's nonsense.
[2:34] <Khaytsus> Tenacious-Techhu: create a new user
[2:34] <Khaytsus> If you don't want to login as pi
[2:34] <BurtyB> Tenacious-Techhu, in the decades I've been using linux I've not seen anything that can do what you want
[2:34] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, you saying that doesn't answer my questio any faster.
[2:35] <Khaytsus> BurtyB: Because his question is asinine
[2:35] <Tenacious-Techhu> Maybe it is; that doesn't mean it shouldn't be answered.
[2:35] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, I'm not trying to use root full time; I'm just trying to switch to it for the time being.
[2:36] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, so did you try sudo -u root /script.sh ? I think just plain sudo give temp permissions to the pi user and runs, but sudo -u root should tell it to use root, so the pi console doesn't exit it
[2:36] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: On linux, you have a process tree.
[2:36] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: If a parent process dies, typially, all childrne get killed.
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[2:36] <BurtyB> OO-Dragon, again that won't work as killing sudo will kill the script which is why I said run bash with sudo and background it
[2:36] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, I'm trying to switch to root. There should be a way of starting a new parent process, rather than merely a child process.
[2:37] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: All processes can be parent processes, if they spawn a child.
[2:37] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: init, with PID 1, is special.
[2:40] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: There's no way around it - on linux, you need to learn about mulitple user accounts. If you don't like that, try using a different system that doesn't use multiple user accounts, and those are obsolete now.
[2:40] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, I only came in half way through the convo. What exactly is the end goal of having it spawn under another user?
[2:40] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, I'm not dodge doing multiple user accounts.
[2:40] <Khaytsus> If he just wants to login as root, why not just login as root
[2:41] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: You have pi, and root. That's two users, right there.
[2:41] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, by making this about things it isn't, you are not helping.
[2:41] <Khaytsus> Tenacious-Techhu: I think it's pretty clear your desires are nonsense if everyone is telling you it's the wrong way to do it.
[2:41] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, I'm just trying to *actually* switch to root, so I can kill off the pi user and delete it, before adding other users.
[2:41] * Stromeko (~Stromeko@unaffiliated/stromeko) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[2:41] <Khaytsus> You don't need to do anything to the pi user
[2:42] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, fact one is no indication of theory 2.
[2:42] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, yes, I do, because it's an eyesore.
[2:42] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, You made him aware of the issues, and he still wants to. You won't get anything extra by repeating yourself. Just let him find the answer from someone else
[2:42] * Khaytsus blinks
[2:42] <Khaytsus> an eyesore
[2:42] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: Nobody can answer him; his question has no answer. He won't accept "mkuser", won't accept sudo... there's no answering
[2:42] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, but you want to do it from the pi user?
[2:43] * arahael regards every user that has access to sudo as an 'admin' user account.
[2:43] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, that just means you don't have a answer he wants. and thats OK. you know it, he knows it, leave it be
[2:43] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, I want to start the script from the pi user, switch to root, have root terminate/log out the pi user, delete it, and then start adding new users.
[2:43] <arahael> Wait, what? Delete the user? Why?
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[2:43] <Tenacious-Techhu> Because it's an eyesore.
[2:44] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: If he can waste everyones time, I can waste his time.
[2:44] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: What about files on disk or in the process tree that are already using that user ID?
[2:44] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Lets suppose this is user ID 300.
[2:44] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, and logging in as root to do so is a no go?
[2:44] <Tenacious-Techhu> I would prefer to stop them as gracefully as possible.
[2:44] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, true.. but he actually wants something.. I'm not sure why you are hoping to get out of it...
[2:45] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, while I can certainly do that if I wanted to, that's not what I'm going for.
[2:45] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: I don't want anything except vampires to stop leaching everyones time.
[2:45] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Logging in directly as root, while I still discourage it, is the only way to do what you want.
[2:45] <arahael> Well, it's the *simplest* way to do what you want.
[2:45] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, do you have any documentation that says so?
[2:46] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, I gotch ya.
[2:46] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: 15 years of linux experience. You wont' find documentation that documents what doesn't exist.
[2:46] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, do you have a dissenting opinion?
[2:46] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: That said, another way would be to use nohup.
[2:46] <Tenacious-Techhu> nohup?
[2:46] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: But I doubt nohup will work the way you want it to.
[2:46] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: It lets you run a script and allow the parent process to be killed.
[2:47] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: I repeat: It does NOT do what you want.
[2:48] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, Just options. Feel free to use or dismiss. One you might want to consider, is you can actuallly hold Ctrl + alt and hit f3 to pull up a new terminal window to login with
[2:48] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, from there, you can login as root and wipe things, as you would actually be logged in as root
[2:48] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, part of my script is to switch virtual consoles.
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[2:48] <arahael> OO-Dragon: He already doesn't want to do that, though.
[2:48] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, does your script do anything besides create users?
[2:49] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'm trying to make this script only as hands-on as absolutely necessary.
[2:49] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Why do you switch virtual consoles, anyway?
[2:49] <arahael> In 15 years, I've never seen a script do that.
[2:50] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, I figure it's necessary so that the script can continue, while I'm killing off all the pi-related GUI processes.
[2:50] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: It's not.
[2:50] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: It still needs controlling terminal, though, which you're killing.
[2:51] <Khaytsus> Do you even use the GUI Tenacious-Techhu
[2:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> I'm trying to make the virtual console the controlling terminal, if at all possible.
[2:51] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, how do you mean?
[2:51] <Khaytsus> It's a simple question.
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[2:53] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: You could try starting a custom virtual console launched by init.
[2:53] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: You will be 100% on your own, there, though.
[2:54] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, I don't know in what context you mean; do you mean in general, or do you mean for this specific use case?
[2:54] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, how would I start that?
[2:55] <Tenacious-Techhu> After looking it over, I'm not sure nohup does what I want either; just because the user's logged out, that doesn't mean nohup doesn't still depend on that user existing...
[2:55] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: As I said, you'd be on your own there.
[2:55] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: As for that user existing, here's a tip: The user never completely goes away.
[2:55] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, do you at least know the relevant command?
[2:56] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, Yeah, getting things to work that way, kinda goes against how and why users work to begin with (isolation). Even during impersinations, its still initiated by the user, meaning you can't delete the user that ran it, without halting everything running under that user
[2:56] <Tenacious-Techhu> Even after you do "deluser --remove-all-files"?
[2:56] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Perhaps openvt, launched by init.
[2:56] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Yes.
[2:56] <Khaytsus> Tenacious-Techhu: Obviously this use case.
[2:56] <OO-Dragon> actualy...
[2:56] <OO-Dragon> rc.local
[2:56] <Tenacious-Techhu> Yeah, I'm not trying to impersonate here; I'm trying to legitimately switch users.
[2:57] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: A "user" is just a convenient name for a particular user ID.
[2:57] <Khaytsus> "impersonate" ? wat?
[2:57] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, but thats the problem. switching users requires you to actually get out of the user, otherwise it IS impersenating
[2:57] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: And user ID's are neither created nor destroyed. THey just are.
[2:57] <Tenacious-Techhu> Khaytsus, he means going through sudo.
[2:57] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, I *am* trying to get out of the user.
[2:57] <Tenacious-Techhu> That's my question.
[2:57] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, could you just put your script into rc.local? that loads as root
[2:58] * NickG365_ (~NickG365@cortex.starlabs.theflash.rocks) has joined #raspberrypi
[2:58] <Tenacious-Techhu> That's an interesting line of thought, but not necessarily productive; I hardly want it to run every time the computer boots.
[2:58] <OO-Dragon> requires a reboot, but then it would run, do whatever. just remove it from rc.local when it boots back up
[2:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> Yeah, that's not the sort of ease of use I'm going fr.
[2:59] <Tenacious-Techhu> Err, for.
[2:59] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Or just nohup it. ;)
[2:59] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, so what exactly is this script doing? have you made it yet?
[2:59] * Khaytsus facepalms
[2:59] <OO-Dragon> arahael, *looks up nohup*
[2:59] * stiv (~steve@blender/coder/stivs) has left #raspberrypi
[3:00] <Khaytsus> This makes me miss pisquared yammering about making a robot
[3:00] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, cause I also don't understand why you are trying to do it this way with current information
[3:00] * zproc (~zproc@2001:41d0:a:2459::1) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[3:00] * NickG365 (~NickG365@cortex.starlabs.theflash.rocks) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[3:00] * NickG365_ is now known as NickG365
[3:00] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, So I assume I'm missing something
[3:00] <Tenacious-Techhu> Ugh... robots should be hard-real-time platforms, which the Raspberry Pi is not.
[3:01] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Could also be an XY problem.
[3:01] <Tenacious-Techhu> Don't get me started on people yammering about "XY" problems I supposedly have.
[3:01] <Tenacious-Techhu> I have a "YX" problem.
[3:01] <Khaytsus> smh
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[3:01] <Tenacious-Techhu> People just assume it's an "XY" problem, because they don't understand why I would ever want to do things the way I choose to.
[3:02] <Khaytsus> Because they're asinine
[3:02] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, read somewhere that screen detatched still runs. maybe try that? screen -A -m -d -S somename ./somescript.sh &
[3:02] <Tenacious-Techhu> It doesn't matter if they are. I asked a question, and I should get an answer to that question, and not an answer to other questions I never asked.
[3:02] <OO-Dragon> after install screen ....
[3:02] <arahael> OO-Dragon: You can't view it though, without a a user connecting to it.
[3:03] * arahael prefers tmux to screen, but that's not a solution to this current issue, it seems.
[3:03] <OO-Dragon> arahael, I really need to know what this darn script DOES to give a accurate answer... has he given a clear answer you can paste to me?
[3:03] <Tenacious-Techhu> Gotta go, guys. Unfortunately, time is up for today on my end.
[3:03] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Nope, he hasn't.
[3:03] <OO-Dragon> arahael, all right then :P
[3:03] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, If you can post said script, it would help a lot
[3:03] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, I just want to *actually* switch users to root, so I can then kill off the pi user completely.
[3:03] <arahael> OO-Dragon: But so far, we know that: 1. It switches to another VT, as pi user. sudo's su some script, which then kills pi, and he's absolutely frustrated that he just lost his VT.
[3:04] <OO-Dragon> ... why not just logout?
[3:04] <Tenacious-Techhu> It's not really that complicated a question; just obscure, and perhasp legitimately impossible.
[3:04] * davr0s (~textual@host81-155-68-151.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:04] * r0Oter is now known as r00ter
[3:04] <Tenacious-Techhu> arahael, I'm not frustrated by that, I'm frustrated by not finding out how to switch users properly so the script can continue uninterrupted.
[3:05] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: The script runs under the pi user.
[3:05] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, but that's NOT done on a user level....
[3:05] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: Which you just killed. You can't "switch" users.
[3:05] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: You can run a script in a different user's context, but you can not "switch" users.
[3:06] <OO-Dragon> Programs are not given that level of control
[3:06] <OO-Dragon> that's what a lower level does
[3:06] <arahael> Even root, special cased in the linux kernel in a way that bypasses any access control, and is profoundly privilaged, does not "switch" users.
[3:07] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, If you can, let us know what you are trying to accomplish as a whole, not this one step, there is more then likely another way to do it, that's a lot easier.
[3:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, I don't need advice about that.
[3:07] <Tenacious-Techhu> I just wanted an answer to my question.
[3:08] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, Then I'll have to just confirm what the other are saying. The sytem was never designed to do what you are asking
[3:08] <Tenacious-Techhu> I don't need help writing my script; I need clear-cut, correct, concise answers so I can determine how to do that for myself.
[3:08] <arahael> Tenacious-Techhu: The clear, and probably correct, answer is: You can't do what you want.
[3:08] <OO-Dragon> Tenacious-Techhu, I don't want to make you script, I just need to understand the big picture
[3:09] <OO-Dragon> in order to do that, I need to at least see what you are trying to accomplish as a whole, not individual steps.
[3:09] <OO-Dragon> but to answer your individual question. I don't know how to do that
[3:09] <Tenacious-Techhu> OO-Dragon, you don't; you need to listen to the question that I asked, and answer it in the way it was constructed. I don't need help with anything else.
[3:10] <Tenacious-Techhu> O.K., I really have to go now.
[3:10] <arahael> Bye!
[3:10] <OO-Dragon> Good luck though!
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[3:14] * d0rm0us3 (~any@unaffiliated/anym0us3) has left #raspberrypi
[3:14] * Tenacious-Techhu (4911e54d@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[3:14] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[3:15] <OO-Dragon> W00t, got my got python to look through and change variables in a HTML file, then save a copy with the different data somewhere else on a web server
[3:15] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ has joined #raspberrypi
[3:15] <OO-Dragon> Now to create a bunch of HTML templates for my different sensor pages...
[3:15] * kamdard (~kamdard@cpe-76-187-196-41.tx.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:15] * davr0s (~textual@host81-155-68-151.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[3:15] * fedorafan (~fedorafan@unaffiliated/fedorafan) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[3:16] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Very cool - which templating language? (jinja2 is popular there)
[3:17] <OO-Dragon> arahael, haha, WYSIWYG online html editor :)
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[3:17] <OO-Dragon> I put my own "codes" in. {{ sensorread1 }} type stuff
[3:17] <OO-Dragon> so it can identify what to replace
[3:18] <arahael> OO-Dragon: I highly recommend giving jinja2 a look then. :)
[3:18] <OO-Dragon> I started using Django, but realized I didn't need any of it :P
[3:18] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Django's already using that, or very similar.
[3:18] * harmlessgryphon (~default@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[3:19] <OO-Dragon> Its just to show updated sensor readings from my remote sensors. So it socket connects, grabs data, then replaces the "tags" or whatever you call them with actual data
[3:19] <OO-Dragon> demo of how it looks here http://dragonwarz.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/WebProgram1.png
[3:21] <OO-Dragon> I just have to add my other... 6 sensors?
[3:22] <Khaytsus> I keep meaning to hook up a magnetic switch sensor to my garage, and raise/lower it from the pi
[3:22] <OO-Dragon> was considering making it so python would build the html by adding a whole html section for each additonal sensor, so I wouldn't have to static each sensor into the html file.. but I think I'll do that part later, once I have other stuff working
[3:23] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Consider using meta-refresh instead of the refresh button.
[3:23] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, its pretty awesome how cheap sensors are, when you are willing to do it yourself
[3:24] <OO-Dragon> arahael, haha, actually that doesn't do anything anymore. it did with django, but because the html file is seperate from the program ( it runs once, updates then closes), the refresh doesn't actualy do anthing
[3:24] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: And if you're handy, but not inclined to design, there are people who have probably already documented how to do it on line ;)
[3:24] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, soo true!
[3:25] <OO-Dragon> pretty much ALL of what I have done, came from cherry picking stuff from other projects, then editing to my needs
[3:25] <Khaytsus> like I can wire up a breadboard and do something, but designing it I just never groked.
[3:25] <Khaytsus> I dunno why
[3:25] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, I do enjoy the desing stuff. I made my sensors with a Pi zero w and a EnviroHAT
[3:25] <OO-Dragon> pic of them here
[3:25] <OO-Dragon> http://dragonwarz.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/PiZWSensor.jpg
[3:26] <Khaytsus> I've thought about putting some environmental sensors on a pi that runs my home automation, but haven't
[3:26] <Khaytsus> temp, humidity etc... all prepackaged stuff, basically just plug it in
[3:26] <OO-Dragon> yep
[3:26] <OO-Dragon> saddly this envir doesn't have humidity :( but does have a extra attachment spot for whatever
[3:27] <OO-Dragon> I started with the SenseHAT, and that does have humidity
[3:27] <OO-Dragon> Great HAT to learn about sensors and switches!
[3:27] <arahael> That'll be fun, actually.
[3:27] <OO-Dragon> You do have to solder the pins on the ENVIR PHAT though... so that was neat to learn
[3:28] <Khaytsus> https://www.adafruit.com/product/3251 is waht I had thought of getting
[3:28] * rafael_p (uid72318@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-obbfeasabtdvtbqe) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[3:28] <arahael> I thought it was just a LED grid?
[3:28] <arahael> (SenseHAT, that is)
[3:28] <OO-Dragon> the SenseHAT? nope, that's just one of like 9 things it has on it
[3:29] <OO-Dragon> https://pythonhosted.org/sense-hat/api/
[3:29] <OO-Dragon> shows the sensors and such
[3:30] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, yeah that sensor would work. but if you don't want to have to play with the connections as much, you could find a pre-made HAT to start messing with stuff right away
[3:31] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: Yeah.. that is pretty cheap though heh
[3:31] * Rekonnected (~Rekonnect@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[3:31] * mns (~mns@c-71-232-198-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[3:31] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, yeah... the sense hat is .. not so cheap. but does come with the following. 8x8 LED grid, 5 button joystick, Gyroscope
[3:31] <OO-Dragon> Accelerometer
[3:31] <OO-Dragon> Magnetometer
[3:31] <OO-Dragon> Temperature
[3:31] <OO-Dragon> Barometric pressure
[3:31] <OO-Dragon> Humidity
[3:32] * chris_99 (uid26561@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jocqkxlqqmdchimx) Quit ()
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[3:32] <arahael> I'm only interested in Temperature, barometric, and humidity sensors.
[3:32] <OO-Dragon> The LED grid is more useful then I first though too, cause its easy to scroll text on it
[3:32] * alex73 (~alex73@ Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[3:32] * VonDutch is now known as NowhereMan
[3:32] <OO-Dragon> for instance, I hit a joystick button and it would scroll the TEMP on the LED lights
[3:33] <OO-Dragon> arahael, what were you thinking of doing with those kinds of sensors?
[3:33] * mlelstv (~mlelstv@hoppa.1st.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[3:33] <Khaytsus> I rarely touch my pi's.. one is a gps track logger, one is an aprs node, one is a home automation (433mhz rx/tx), one is a security camera (just for giggles; not cost efficient), etc
[3:34] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Just monitoring the temperature of where I live. ;)
[3:34] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, neat, sounds like you have done a few already
[3:34] <OO-Dragon> arahael, Yeah, that's a thing I want to track over years and in spots all over my area
[3:35] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: yeah, they're all single purpose machines.. and amazingly reliable
[3:35] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, I must admit, I have like... 14 pies? and not a single one has had issues (besides the SD cards having issues)
[3:35] * graphene (~graphene@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[3:36] * Rekonnected (~Rekonnect@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[3:36] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: Every time I look I find another. Pretty sure I have 2 3's, 2 or 3 2's, two 1's, and two ZW's
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[3:36] <OO-Dragon> arahael, I just swapped my data logger from a text file, making a new file every day, to a SQLite database. Since I want to compare over long term, I though that would be better
[3:36] <OO-Dragon> all mine are from the past 3 months (Since I got into it).
[3:36] <arahael> Sounds reasonable.
[3:36] * Rekonnected (~Rekonnect@ has joined #raspberrypi
[3:37] <OO-Dragon> So 4 Pi 3B+ and ... a lot of Zero W's
[3:37] <OO-Dragon> After my HTML templates, I plan on inserting nice fancy graphs (was using matplotlib, but looking at plotly now)
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[3:39] <OO-Dragon> At some point, I'll even try to program it to upload data once a day to a online server, so I can review results and share with others
[3:40] <arahael> OO-Dragon: gitlab pages might be a good way to do that. Cheap.
[3:40] <OO-Dragon> *looks up gitlab*
[3:40] <arahael> Static though - but cheap.
[3:40] <arahael> No...
[3:40] <arahael> *gitlab pages*.
[3:40] <arahael> gitlab pages just happens to use gitlab for it's configuration.
[3:40] <arahael> (And content)
[3:41] <arahael> Oh, sorry. "github pages".
[3:41] * arahael has been using gitlab for work a lot lately.
[3:41] <arahael> It's github pages. :)
[3:41] <OO-Dragon> o coolies
[3:42] <arahael> https://pages.github.com
[3:43] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[3:43] <OO-Dragon> I also have my own servers though. I own dragonwarz.net
[3:43] <arahael> If you have a remote host, then sure, go for that.
[3:43] <arahael> What do you use, btw?
[3:44] <OO-Dragon> for which?
[3:44] <arahael> Your servers?
[3:44] * arahael doesn't have good enough internet to self-host.
[3:44] <OO-Dragon> its actually a godaddy server
[3:44] * Arcaelyx_ (~Arcaelyx@2604:2000:f14a:2500:d7d:6207:4be5:d82c) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:45] <OO-Dragon> unlimited web hosting linux thingy
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[3:46] <arahael> Ah, I see.
[3:46] <OO-Dragon> github pages does look nice to integrate with github itself too.. I should put github on my todo list
[3:46] <arahael> No free ssl certificate? They're old.
[3:46] * Arcaelyx (~Arcaelyx@2604:2000:f14a:2500:d7d:6207:4be5:d82c) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[3:47] <OO-Dragon> not for that one
[3:47] <arahael> It's pathetic. ssl certs are generally free now.
[3:48] <OO-Dragon> yeah, I wonder if I can upload my own... I just havn't bothered, considering the content and how much I use it
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[3:54] <Khaytsus> godaddy :( Stole two of my domains, I wouldn't trust them for anything
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[3:58] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, that sucks. Yeah, I'm not in the web site / server business. It mostly holds a few friends websites
[4:00] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, so what do you do for work?
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[4:04] <OO-Dragon> arahael, Thanks for the meta-refresh mention. that will come in handy :)
[4:04] <Khaytsus> OO-Dragon: Depends on the day... heh.. developer, qa, release manager, architech, etc
[4:04] <OO-Dragon> Its nice to have variety sometime ^_^
[4:04] <Khaytsus> We're a full stack team... Lots overlap on knowledge (good), some obviously better than others in various things
[4:05] <OO-Dragon> the team is for software development I take it though?
[4:05] <Khaytsus> Yeah
[4:05] <OO-Dragon> for a particular company or you have multiple clients that hire you to make their apps?
[4:06] <Khaytsus> Large printer company
[4:06] <OO-Dragon> neat!
[4:06] <OO-Dragon> Do you guys ever use Raspberry Pi's to just test stuff out at work?
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[4:07] <Khaytsus> We've used them to introduce some people to hardware concepts... it's amazing how someone can write software but never touched a computer beyond a keyboard.
[4:07] <arahael> Khaytsus: Wouldn't arduino be better? ;)
[4:08] <Khaytsus> but not some ongoing thing... Like we have innovation days or weeks (depends on the manager at the time ;) where we can work on anything we want and one time a few people wanted to learn a little about HW so they used Pis
[4:08] <Khaytsus> arahael: I have two.. I've never used them. really should sometime.
[4:08] <OO-Dragon> Khaytsus, Very cool.
[4:10] <arahael> Khaytsus: I feel very closeto the hardware on arduino. :)
[4:10] <arahael> I doubt I'll quite get that on Rpi.
[4:10] <OO-Dragon> I have found the Pi's very versatile. beyond my sensor projects, I turned 2x RP3B+'s into network testers. They work darn well too!
[4:11] <Khaytsus> arahael: I thought about using arduino for my car gps tracklogger project just to learn it a bit more but I'd already basically done it on a pi before so I just stuck with that
[4:12] <arahael> Khaytsus: Fair enough.
[4:12] <OO-Dragon> I imagine the arduino version would use much less power
[4:12] <Khaytsus> Basically went from pi+usb gps+radio for a mobile APRS node (ham radio stuff) to just pi+gps+rsync to get data off
[4:12] <arahael> OO-Dragon: Maybe - hopefully. We are talking about an absurdely expensive, clunky microcontroller, vs an astonishingly small and cheap general computer system.
[4:13] <Khaytsus> The radio in the car was just causing me problems with my other radios.. interference etc. But it was pretty neat having live tracking. but...
[4:13] <OO-Dragon> arahael, haha
[4:13] * Khaytsus isn't sure which is which
[4:15] <OO-Dragon> arahael, I was actually thinking if we compared the RP to the arduino, not his old GPS to his pi (if that's what you were thinking?)
[4:17] <OO-Dragon> O has anyone tried this one yet? http://www.pi-in-the-sky.com/index.php?id=guides
[4:18] <OO-Dragon> High Altitude Balloons with Pis!
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[4:32] <Khaytsus> Anyone know if you can use a generic car relay from a pi? I guess they all run off 12v though
[4:32] <TinkerTiger> If I recall correctly, and there is no garauntee of that, you can edit a file on the SD card for a Pi to turn on ssh withoutconnecting through a console cable?
[4:33] <Khaytsus> TinkerTiger: Yes, something in the boot config
[4:33] <Khaytsus> You can also preconfig wifi etc
[4:33] <TinkerTiger> Cool, thanks.
[4:33] <Khaytsus> I almost never hook a pi up to a monitor or keyboard.. I just do that stuff and plug it in
[4:34] <TinkerTiger> If the relay sends 12v, you'd need a step down converter from 12v. It's been something I've had on my back burner for a while since I'll have a 12v gel cell on my trike.
[4:34] <Khaytsus> Relay would need 12v to be switch on I think
[4:34] * Obi-Wan (~obi-wan@unaffiliated/obi-wan) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:34] <TinkerTiger> Cool.
[4:34] <TinkerTiger> Likely.
[4:34] * Ilyas (uid43013@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ceenefdemajcztph) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[4:35] <TinkerTiger> Need to find another relay! I feel that I'll probbly end up building my own step down voltage converter for my trike.
[4:36] * HighInBC (~highinbc@unaffiliated/chillum) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:38] <TinkerTiger> I have a Raspbeery Pi clone zero and I really don't want to wire it up again. heh.
[4:40] * Karyon (~Karyon@unaffiliated/karyon) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[4:41] * {HD} (s6d7XSaB@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/hd/x-06969157) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
[4:41] <Khaytsus> Every time I want to get some neat little thing for the pi it seems like I can't find it local so I gotta order it. ah well
[4:43] <TinkerTiger> I know. I live in a backwater. Look, I'm a linux hobbies going to be teaching at a technical college because I have more experience with Linux than the computer science guy.
[4:43] <TinkerTiger> Hobbyist.
[4:44] <TinkerTiger> Yes, I started in computer science, 28 years ago but that's not what my degrees are in.
[4:44] * munch_ (~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb4:3e30:9814:4113:926a:25c3) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:46] * {HD} (s6d7XSaB@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/hd/x-06969157) has joined #raspberrypi
[4:49] * graphene (~graphene@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[4:54] * {HD} (s6d7XSaB@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/hd/x-06969157) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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[5:02] * Jinx (Dojo@unaffiliated/jinx) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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[5:08] <TinkerTiger> I've always loved the 'tarball'.
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[5:12] * TinkerTiger waves.
[5:12] * TinkerTiger (~will@97-91-69-87.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) Quit (Quit: leaving)
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[10:58] <arahael> Does Raspbian use wayland by default?
[10:59] <shiftplusone> no, not at all
[10:59] <arahael> Hmm, ok - does it work well with wayland?
[10:59] <shiftplusone> doubt it, but I haven't tried.
[10:59] <arahael> Why do you doubt it?
[11:00] <arahael> shiftplusone: It was mentioned on the raspberrypi blog some years ago: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/wayland-preview/
[11:00] <shiftplusone> Because every time there's a release, there's one individual in the comment section asking about when we're gong to add wayland support. I assume he tried it and found it doesn't work.
[11:01] <arahael> That's interesting. I understand it if it's not the default, but you're implying it barely works at all.
[11:01] <Shadow_7_> I recall seeing a picture of some arm thing with a mali gpu running wayland years ago
[11:02] <shiftplusone> No, I haven't tried. I'm only doubting it based on the assumption that somebody who complains about it not working would have tried it.
[11:02] <shiftplusone> And also, I have never packaged any special version of wayland for the pi, so whatever build that blog post mentions, it probably wouldn't work with current version of Raspbian (stretch) and it's definitely not in the repo.
[11:03] <shiftplusone> So it depends on what level of support upstream wayland has for raspberry pi
[11:03] <shiftplusone> and whether the version that's in stretch is compiled with the appropriate flags to enable it
[11:05] <arahael> Hmm, so it might work, but should be considered highly experimental.
[11:05] * Rekonnected (~Rekonnect@ Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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[11:14] * peepsalot (~peepsalot@cpe-173-174-74-169.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[11:16] <shiftplusone> I see some success reported here https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=191251&start=25
[11:17] * nevodka (~nevodka@ has joined #raspberrypi
[11:20] <Shadow_7_> Not that wayland is anything like it was hoped to be.
[11:21] <Shadow_7_> It was supposed to be soo much faster, but it's about the same.
[11:22] <Shadow_7_> I like it's redneck factor. If you've got nVidia... Can't get there from here.
[11:22] <arahael> Shadow_7_: How do you test that? Right now applications are _still_ primarily optimised for X11.
[11:22] * guccibandana (~gucciband@78-57-205-76.static.zebra.lt) has joined #raspberrypi
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[11:22] <arahael> Shadow_7_: And even then, graphics vendors still don't really care about linux.
[11:23] <Shadow_7_> It's speed shouldn't be graphics bound IMO
[11:23] <Shadow_7_> Although our modern reality is, since CPUs really aren't much faster than they were ten years ago
[11:23] * YuGiOhJCJ (~YuGiOhJCJ@gateway/tor-sasl/yugiohjcj) Quit (Quit: YuGiOhJCJ)
[11:24] <Shadow_7_> My old 2007 athlon x2 is 1.9GHz with up to 4GB ram. My newest and best machine is only twice the cores and 2.5GHz.
[11:25] <Shadow_7_> And that athlon is the lowest spec'd one for that mobo in it's day
[11:25] <Shadow_7_> 3.1GHz for the best one a decade+ ago
[11:25] <arahael> In theory, the idea beyind wayland was that it should move more stuff to the GPU, I think - but also to redesign teh graphics pipeline.
[11:26] * vaft_ (~vaft@cpe-24-211-192-145.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:26] <arahael> 3.1GHz is still decent for a new machine.
[11:26] <Shadow_7_> the only real speed difference is the 800MHz DDR2 ram versus 2k+ DDR4
[11:26] <arahael> Sure. :)
[11:26] <Armand> Pfft.. X2
[11:27] <Armand> Amateur. :P
[11:27] <mlelstv> wayland doesn't move anything to the GPU
[11:27] * jkridner|pd (~jkridner@pdpc/supporter/active/jkridner) has joined #raspberrypi
[11:27] <Shadow_7_> I upgraded that old machine from 512MHz ram, and what a difference with integrated graphics
[11:27] <Armand> I've got a dual P3-800EB here.. much sexier. :D
[11:27] * _BigWings_1 (~Thunderbi@modemcable037.137-178-173.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #raspberrypi
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[11:28] * shbrngdo (shabrnigdo@user-112v223.biz.mindspring.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[11:28] <Shadow_7_> The best thing about that old x2, was that every year linux kept running faster on it
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[11:28] <Shadow_7_> with all the compiler optimizations and other improvements over the years
[11:28] <arahael> mlelstv: Does it have any performance improvements at all, though?
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[11:30] <arahael> Yes there is a performrance improvement - but only a very marginal one: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gnome-326-x11way&num=1
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[11:31] <arahael> Possibly statistical noise, even.
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[11:35] <arahael> I wonder when the RPi supports USB3.
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[11:37] <mlelstv> arahael, not by itself. It mainly adds support for multiple drawing surfaces, so each window can be its own display, even with transparency for overlapping surfaces. With X you have to simulate that slowly.
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[12:10] <Shadow_7_> note to self. Plug the usb from the printer in, before trying to print
[12:10] <Lartza> Pff, no wi-fi printer in 2018?
[12:11] <Shadow_7_> not only that, but it's a usb to parallel port adapter to boot. A tank of a printer though.
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[12:13] <BurtyB> they don't make 'em like they used to
[12:14] <Shadow_7_> back when murder weapons could be used more than once and still function on the primary mission
[12:14] <Shadow_7_> when dropping things was more of a hazard to the floor than the device
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[12:32] <arahael> mlelstv: Yes, that does make sense.
[12:33] <arahael> Won't see any improvement with tcl/tk apps, for sure. :)
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[12:38] <shiftplusone> Of course you can't improve tcl/tk. It's the peak of perfection.
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[12:41] <arahael> shiftplusone: Heh. :)
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[12:46] <arahael> This is an interesting article: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Raspberry-Pi-Hwmon-Linux-4.19
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[12:46] <arahael> Seems that undervoltage is a thing.
[12:46] <arahael> Doesn't strike me as Pi specific, though?
[12:46] <chris_99> i've had a little lightning bolt appear
[12:46] <chris_99> and undervoltage message
[12:47] <arahael> Nice.
[12:47] <arahael> kinda. :)
[12:47] <chris_99> heh yeah it's doo it can do it
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[12:47] <chris_99> *good it can do it
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[12:52] <mfa298> arahael: it's probably more broadcom/VC4 specific, but seeing as the Raspberry is the only broadcom based SBC it's effectively the same thing
[12:52] <arahael> Ah, interesting.
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[12:53] <mfa298> on many other SBCs you might not even be able to detect low input voltage (and same on the original Pi1B and Zero) as they don't have suitable circuitry
[12:53] <BurtyB> mfa298, don't forget the poor old Odroid-W ;)
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[12:56] <shiftplusone> the circuitry is external to the soc, I doubt odroid-w would've had it
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[12:57] * mfa298 wonders how many odroid-w are even in use or would get updated to 4.19
[12:58] <BurtyB> heh I doubt there are many if any these days
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[12:59] <shiftplusone> ali1234: btw, ages ago you asked whether the libegl et al libs wll be removed from the firmware repo to push the libbrcm ones. Yes, so qt's solution to the problem is not sustainable.
[13:00] <arahael> shiftplusone: What's the context there?
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[13:02] <shiftplusone> arahael: raspberry pi has opengl es libraries which get the firmware to do the heavy lifting. We're slowly moving away from that to a fully open mesa gl/egl implementation. The issue is that the libraries had the same names. Software needs to know which ones it's being built against.
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[13:02] <arahael> Ah, yes. That's always an issue. :(
[13:02] <shiftplusone> Overall it would allow you to run opengl programs with hardware acceleration without having a special pi version. For example, if you enable the experimental driver, you can install neverball from apt and it will be nice and smooth.
[13:03] <shiftplusone> otherwise, the source would have to be changed and then it wouldn't run on other arm machines.
[13:05] <arahael> shiftplusone: This is especially bad in Android, apparently, where they have an sqlite driver, but if you link to a different one, you have the potential for crashes.
[13:05] <shiftplusone> well... more crashes than usual
[13:05] <arahael> Heh. Sure. :)
[13:06] <arahael> I "went apple' a while ago, at least with mobile phones. :(
[13:06] <arahael> Haven't regretted it.
[13:06] <shiftplusone> Oh, I wouldn't go that far.
[13:06] <arahael> It's pretty good, except for being stuck in the apple ecosystem.
[13:06] <Armand> Must... not.... troll....
[13:06] * Armand walks away
[13:07] <arahael> (And that's a pretty significant limitation)
[13:07] <H__> impressive
[13:07] * H__ highfives Armand
[13:07] <Armand> o/
[13:07] <arahael> Heh.
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[13:07] <Armand> It's ok.. My wife has an iPhone X.. I can troll her. :P
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[13:08] <shiftplusone> I did look around for a new laptop and the macbook pro doesn't actually seem bad value than something like one of the dell xps laptops.
[13:08] <shiftplusone> Seems like the apple premium has dropped somewhat.
[13:09] <arahael> shiftplusone: Sucky keyboards, though.
[13:09] <arahael> shiftplusone: Frankly I'd go for the dell, if it wasn't for my career (I'd be burning bridges leaving apple)
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[13:10] <arahael> shiftplusone: Did you hear about the apple keyboards?
[13:10] <shiftplusone> Yeah, I still have enough reasons not to buy one. Price wasn't the main factor keeping me from Apple products.
[13:10] <shiftplusone> That they would stop working from any bit of dust that got in and refused to acknowledge the problem?
[13:10] <Armand> I'm really tempted to get the Pinebook myself.
[13:10] <Armand> Cheap, light.. and super-sexeh
[13:10] <shiftplusone> and have very little travel or feedback and are just overall bad?
[13:11] <arahael> shiftplusone: Or if you hit them too hard, like, as a heavy typist...
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[13:11] <shiftplusone> they've come out with a fixed model, but still don't admit that there's a problem, right?
[13:12] <arahael> shiftplusone: THe jury's still out wether it's "fixed".
[13:12] <arahael> Armand: Pity about the sucky linux support.
[13:13] <shiftplusone> the dust problem should be. I think they've added some membrane to keep dirt from getting under the keys, but idk.
[13:13] <Armand> arahael: Not really looked too deeply as yet
[13:13] <arahael> Armand: Otherwise, a very interesting netbook.
[13:13] <shiftplusone> Pinebook seems a bit low spec.... 30 day warranty doesn't inspire confidence either.
[13:13] <Armand> Definitely
[13:13] <Armand> ^ arahael
[13:14] <shiftplusone> I'll stick with my chromebook for that use case.
[13:14] <Armand> I don't care about warranty..
[13:14] <Armand> I'll void it within a week. :P
[13:14] <shiftplusone> ah, only $99
[13:14] <arahael> Armand: I think they need more RAM, and a higher spec CPU. Also way better IO, including video output would be neat.
[13:14] <Armand> TRue
[13:15] <shiftplusone> Tempted to get one just to figure out how to get a pi in there instead.
[13:15] <arahael> Armand: And no idea what it's like with the ultimate test: Full screen flash.
[13:15] <Armand> Hahaha
[13:15] <Armand> Flash can DIAF
[13:15] <arahael> Armand: Full screen youtube, then. ;)
[13:15] <Armand> PC or phone
[13:16] <Armand> I want the Pinebook purely for comms.. IRC, email, SSH, etc.
[13:17] <arahael> Requires a daughter board for wifi, apparently. And an adapter for ethernet.
[13:18] <arahael> I'd wonder about the shielding, too. It's a metal case.
[13:18] <shiftplusone> Wouldn't there be like 100 different chinese netbooks for a similar price with better specs?
[13:19] <arahael> shiftplusone: This is probably one of them! But with markup. :)
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[13:21] <shiftplusone> That reminds me I should probably get a clean install going on my chromebook. I used to use it to build packages which required more RAM than the pi had, but now we have a proper ARM build server for that, so the chromebook can be more general purpose.
[13:21] <arahael> shiftplusone: Couldn't you use a large intel system for that? (But with an arm emulator), or are such emulators dog slow?
[13:22] <shiftplusone> slow if you emulate and some things require many hoops to be jumped through before they build with qemu-user.
[13:23] <arahael> Blegh. :(
[13:23] <shiftplusone> after wasting lots of time on chromium builds and then libreoffice, I decided that a proper build server is justified.
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[13:24] <shiftplusone> it's not perfect either, since it runs a 64bit kernel. Some packages automatically detect that and ignore the fact that it's a raspbian userland, try to build for aarch64 and then fall over.
[13:25] <shiftplusone> That's easier to fix though
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[13:28] <Armand> arahael: The Pinebook has wifi and BT.
[13:29] <Matt> shiftplusone: have you watched any of Louis Rossmann's stuff?
[13:29] <shiftplusone> Matt: yeah, that's about the extent of my knowledge of Apple's wrongdoings.
[13:30] <shiftplusone> But most of the stuff he mentions doesn't seem that different for other brands. If he wanted to, could he order Dell parts easily, get schematics and gerbers? I would be surprised if the answer was yes to all of that.
[13:31] * Pi42 (~Pi42@unaffiliated/pi42) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[13:32] <arahael> Armand: Their FAQ says this -> Yes, the Pine A64 has the reserved expansion port for Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. The various Wi-Fi and Bluetooth daughter boards are available at Pine64 store (https://shop.pine64.org).
[13:32] <Armand> That's weird, because the product details include wifi & BT.
[13:32] <arahael> Armand: Maybe their 'laptop' ships with those already integrated. But if so, where do they put the antenna?
[13:32] <Armand> Top half
[13:33] <arahael> Armand: Looking at it, I see metal everywhere. That's not going to work well. Even the bevel looks to have metal, and that's where they usually put it.
[13:33] <arahael> Armand: Bluetooth is iffy, even, on the macbooks. I use an external adapter.
[13:33] <shiftplusone> He also uses cars as an example saying "imagine if car manufacturers did that!" and yet Kawasaki refused to sell parts for a bike a had and none of their workshops could order them in. Before, when I still could get them it would take months to literally ship them.
[13:33] <Armand> I don't care much about BT
[13:33] <arahael> (It's ok, I guess, when the laptop is open, but not when closed)
[13:34] <Armand> You mean, when I don't need to care about it? lol
[13:35] <arahael> Armand: A number of macbook users like to put their laptop closed, in a "dock", while at work with a larger screen and keyboard.
[13:35] <Armand> Yeah... it's all pretty subjective
[13:35] <arahael> But still, there is a lot of metal. My macbook doesn't have that much metal on the bevel - it's black something, not aluminium.
[13:37] <Matt> shiftplusone: aye, but the point he tends to make is that the PC vendors make hardware modular and spares are readily available
[13:38] <Matt> so if you kill a keyboard or a screen, it's a fairly straightforward repair
[13:39] <shiftplusone> PCs are different beasts to laptops though.
[13:39] <Matt> and the design tends to be sensible - things like drain holes on the keyboard tray that redirect liquid away from the board
[13:39] <arahael> Matt: Most people don't repair. They really should, though.
[13:39] <Matt> shiftplusone: this is PC as opposed to Mac
[13:39] <Matt> still talking laptop :)
[13:39] <shiftplusone> you can easily get spare chips found on motherboards from dell?
[13:40] <Matt> not for board level stuff, but dell also use a lot more off the shelf stuff
[13:40] <Matt> dell/lenovo/HP/etc
[13:41] <Matt> but you swap a lot more modules on a typical PC laptop
[13:41] * kozy (~quassel@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[13:41] <Matt> wifi, gpu, storage, etc
[13:41] <shiftplusone> Yeah, no argument there.
[13:41] <Matt> all modular on a PC
[13:41] <Matt> quite possibly CPU too
[13:41] <Matt> Intel were a big driver with that back when they pushed out Centrino
[13:42] * retrosenator (~pi@pool-108-15-18-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:42] <retrosenator> is there a tool to evaluate sdcard ?
[13:42] <mlelstv> the wifi antenna on the pinebook is at or behind the screen, just like with most other notebooks.
[13:42] <shiftplusone> Haven't taken apart a laptop recently, but last time I did, most of it was soldered down and not modular.
[13:42] <Matt> shiftplusone: you'd /love/ my precision
[13:42] <retrosenator> I have one that occasionally gets read errors.. I want to test about 8 cards
[13:43] <Matt> shiftplusone: and I suspect it depends on vendor - here's my old Thinkpad i1410: http://pkl.net/~matt/photos/thinkpad/
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[13:44] <shiftplusone> Yeah, that doesn't look bad at all.
[13:44] <Matt> and that's pentium MMX era
[13:44] <Matt> it's a 166 IIRC
[13:45] <Matt> thanks to centrino, vpro, etc from Intel, laptops use standard connections for a lot of stuff
[13:45] <Matt> mini-pcie and the like
[13:45] <shiftplusone> To play devil's advocate, are those laptops a lot fatter and heavier than macbooks? The argument that they can't be as modular because of their design limitations isn't too far fetched.
[13:45] <Matt> where they get nasty is that they whitelist devices in firmware and refuse to boot if you're using some other vendor's hardware
[13:45] <Matt> oh, my precision is huge compared to a macbook
[13:46] <Matt> probably 4x thicker, and 3x heavier
[13:46] <shiftplusone> Ah, my brother is an Apple fan and I remember when we were upgrading his macbook, we had to use a specific type of hard drive... you'd think a hard drive is a hard drive, but nope.
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[13:47] <shiftplusone> and of course there's serial pairing of different components so that a motherboard will only work with a specific individual peripheral
[13:47] <Matt> but it's also got 4 USB3 A sockets, 1 combined eSATA/USB2, VGA, DP, HDMI, an optical drive, an internal 2.5" drive, an internal mSATA drive
[13:47] <Matt> shiftplusone: drives are one thing they don't restrict you on
[13:47] <Matt> it's generally wifi adaptors and such
[13:48] <shiftplusone> in that case, the drive was the issue. He was running out of storage and that particular model required a specific model of hard drive, IIRC.
[13:48] <Matt> i7-4710MQ with 32G
[13:48] <Matt> at least he's got a macbook where the drive is replaceable
[13:48] <Matt> the modern ones it's soldered onto the mainboard
[13:49] <shiftplusone> nice
[13:49] <shiftplusone> To be fair, they did make it very difficult to get to that hard drive. For most people, it may as well have been soldered down.
[13:49] <Matt> yeah, but also think that if it's not soldered in, you can at least pull the drive if you have to replace the board due to a fault
[13:50] <arahael> shiftplusone: Yeah, you have to match parts *exactly* depending on the *exact* macbook you have.
[13:50] <arahael> shiftplusone: And if you have a $10k iMac Pro... Those memory or hdd slots aren't user accessible.
[13:50] <Matt> oh, and good luck replacing the battery when that dies
[13:50] <Matt> at one point apple were gluing it down over the display cable
[13:50] <arahael> Have to replace half the case when you do.
[13:51] <arahael> There's a rumour that apple might go ARM soon.
[13:51] <arahael> "soon".
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[13:52] <shiftplusone> arahael: is that the one that was 'featured' on linustechtips recently? That looked fairly accessible
[13:52] <shiftplusone> if you didn't mind working that close to an exposed power supply
[13:52] <arahael> shiftplusone: I haven't seen that one.
[13:52] <chris_99> was it definitely arm apple wanted to use, i did here they wanted to make their own processor
[13:52] <arahael> chris_99: Oh, it would certainly be their own processor, but heavily based on ARM.
[13:52] <shiftplusone> arahael: take a look at the recent video with Lois Rossmann in it.
[13:53] <arahael> shiftplusone: I don't watch those videos.
[13:53] <shiftplusone> fair enough
[13:53] <arahael> And I don't watch youtube. :)
[13:53] * pavlushka (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[13:54] <shiftplusone> but yeah, the short version is that it looks fairly upgradeable... things aren't soldered down, but the power supply is completely exposed. Take the screen out and bam... exposed power supply you can short the screen to as you're taking it out.
[13:54] * tommy`` (~UPP@host88-186-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:54] <arahael> shiftplusone: You're supposed to unplug battery and power, though exposed capacitors would certainly be something to be wary of.
[13:55] <shiftplusone> yup
[13:58] * arahael is looking forward to when he can unbox his Rpi and check out Raspbian.
[13:58] * finlstrm (~quassel@pool-96-253-50-155.prvdri.fios.verizon.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[13:58] <arahael> It'll be good to have linux again. :) MacOS with brew just isn't the same.
[13:59] <chris_99> someone mentioned VPNs yesterday, i just found this server on HN today, https://www.wireguard.com/ which looks really good
[14:00] <shiftplusone> yeah, that does look interesting. Saw that they sent the patch upstream, so it could be part of standard linux soonish.
[14:00] <shiftplusone> openvpn is a bit of a pain to set up and use
[14:01] <chris_99> yeah exactly heh
[14:01] <chris_99> will see if i can play with it soon, as it looks really nice
[14:03] <chris_99> would be nice if it made it into android too heh
[14:05] <shiftplusone> What's the use case? Haven't really had much of a need to tunnel stuff from or to my phone.
[14:06] * shiroininja (~shiroinin@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[14:09] <chris_99> oh i was just thinking would be useful on unsecured hotspots
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[14:10] <Matt> openvpn is easy to set up and use
[14:10] * Matt uses it pretty much everywhere
[14:10] * TheSin (~TheSin@d199-126-166-85.abhsia.telus.net) Quit (Quit: Client exiting)
[14:10] <Matt> ipsec on the otherhand tends to be something of a configuration minefield with a load of tinkering before it's all working right
[14:11] <shiftplusone> Matt: do you set it up from scratch every time, or do you copy in config files you have stashed away?
[14:12] <Matt> I typically reuse a config file, but it wouldn't take long to put one together from scratch
[14:12] <Matt> they don't need to be very long
[14:12] <Matt> <20 lines
[14:13] * pavlushka_ (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:15] <shiftplusone> so <20 options out of however many there are in total. If you're not already familiar with what you want, it can be a little obscure to find the options you want/need. More commonly, the thing to do is to copy one some guy on the internet wrote and then go through the errors and warnings until it's actually what you want. Either way you need to sit there for a while with the documentation open as you do it.
[14:15] <shiftplusone> whereas I only had to glance at the wireguard quickstart guide to have a good idea of what's involved.
[14:16] <shiftplusone> But yeah, I mean it's a pain relatively speaking. It's not like it took me long to figure it out the first time or that I struggle with it now, but wireguard just looks a lot simpler.
[14:17] <Matt> aye, I'll agree with that assessment
[14:17] <Matt> it's still easier than setting up ipsec :)
[14:17] <Matt> plus it NATs well
[14:18] <Matt> but wireguard is definitely on my "need to play with on work time" list
[14:18] <shiftplusone> Never had to set up ipsec
[14:18] <Matt> ipsec with linux tools is insane
[14:18] <Matt> with a frontend of some sort it's a little better, but still a pain
[14:19] <shiftplusone> Any advantage to it that makes people use it?
[14:19] <Matt> it's a standard
[14:19] * rafalcpp (~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl) Quit (Excess Flood)
[14:19] <Matt> so you can do cross-vendor VPNs
[14:19] * guccibandana (~gucciband@78-57-205-76.static.zebra.lt) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[14:20] <shiftplusone> and I guess windows and macs can connect without any additional software then?
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[14:20] <BurtyB> from my experience of ipsec it's for those who like pain
[14:20] <Matt> I like pfSense (or opnsense) as a firewall platform, and recently I've done IPsec VPNs between pfsense and juniper, and pfsense and cisco
[14:21] <Matt> shiftplusone: in /theory/ - but in practice no
[14:21] <Matt> cause road-warrior type configs usually throw an additional authentication layer on top, which is 3rd party
[14:21] <Matt> cisco anyconnect for example
[14:21] <shiftplusone> ah
[14:22] <Matt> but net-to-net stuff does work cross-vendor
[14:22] <chris_99> what's the new linux firewall btw, that's apparently gonna replace iptables?
[14:22] <Matt> so long as you can figure out the correct settings based on vendor terminology
[14:22] <wigums> nftables
[14:22] <chris_99> ah that's it
[14:22] <Matt> that'll be fun
[14:22] * Matt remembers ipfwadm
[14:22] <Matt> and ipchains
[14:23] <Matt> and converting firewall scripts from one to the next
[14:23] <chris_99> heh
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[14:23] <Matt> my original linux boxes connected to the net ran ipfwadm
[14:24] <chris_99> is that something before ipchains? i don't recall it
[14:24] <Matt> then ipchains
[14:24] <Matt> yup
[14:25] <chris_99> ah
[14:25] <Matt> ipfwadm was 2.0
[14:25] <Matt> ipchains was 2.2
[14:25] <Matt> iptables came in with 2.4
[14:25] <chris_99> haha so they're going through firewalls like crazy
[14:25] <mfa298> 2.0 and 2.2 were a long time ago (I remember ipchains back in the early 00's)
[14:26] <Matt> yes they were
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[14:26] <ali1234> shiftplusone: heh. i look forward to telling them "i told you so"
[14:26] <mfa298> and at least on the user side there were a lot of similarities between ipchains and iptables
[14:27] <Matt> 2.4 was introduced in 2001
[14:27] <Matt> last 2.2 release was 2004
[14:27] <Matt> mfa298: yup
[14:27] * sdothum (~znc@dsl-173-206-10-184.tor.primus.ca) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[14:28] <Matt> converting an ipchains script to iptables was pretty mechanical
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[14:30] <Matt> I should poke at nftables, see if it simplifies the nonsense required when you've got a multihomed box with multiple default routes
[14:31] <chris_99> Why do you have multiple default routes out of interest, is that used for load balancing or..?
[14:31] <Matt> rather than having to muck around with conntrack, multiple routing tables, and ip rule stuffs
[14:31] * BurtyB didn't think it was that bad tbh
[14:31] <Matt> chris_99: most recently, $client switching their internet connection from $provider1 to $provider2
[14:31] <Matt> with a /28 on both
[14:31] <Matt> and a 1 month overlap where both need to be active alongside each other
[14:32] <chris_99> ahh
[14:32] * Armand (~Armand@office.prgn.misp.co.uk) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[14:34] <Matt> they're running pfsense on their main firewall, which handles it fairly sanely
[14:34] <Matt> each NIC gets its own gateway
[14:34] <Matt> but their legacy externally facing linux box is a bit more annoying
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[14:37] * BurtyB just uses "ip route add default... table blah" and "ip rule add from x.x.x.x table blah" and an entry for blah in rt_tables for each on my linux gw
[14:37] <Matt> yup
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[15:16] <lopta> I think my microSDHC card might be horribly slow.
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[15:19] <sushi__> I am about to buy SD card with NOOBS on it, will I be able to install Raspbian Lite from it?
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[15:27] <lopta> I would pull it and test the speed then I'd have to start the re-imaging process all over again.
[15:30] * pavlushka_ is now known as pavlushka
[15:31] <shiftplusone> sushi__: yes, but I would highly recommend having another way to flash the card just in case
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[15:36] <sushi__> okay, i have a dekstop with windows so that should be alright?
[15:37] <shiftplusone> and an sd card reader? yup
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[16:41] <lopta> 1669922816 bytes transferred in 5703.053 secs (292812 bytes/sec)
[16:41] * VonDutch is now known as NowhereMan
[16:41] <lopta> ^- seems a bit slow.
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[16:42] <mlelstv> use larger blocks
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[17:31] -christel- : [Global Notice] Hi all, we are aware of the current spambot attacks, and we would encourage users to set themselves +R and channel operators to set +r in the channels while the attack is ongoing. While our mitigating efforts are catching the vast majority at the gate, a small proportion still make it through. Apologies for the inconvenience and please bear with us as we do our best to minimize impact.
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[17:44] <phinxy> what pins is UART on the Pi2 header? 8,10?
[17:45] <phinxy> of course it is.. I had a ground loop and it broke some stuff :.(
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[17:51] <phinxy> When two singleboard computers are supplied from the same power supply and then connected together with GND,TX,RX is stuff expected to short-circuit?
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[17:55] <mfa298> if that's what you connected then that should be fine, as long as the PSU can supply enough power
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[18:49] <das_j> Hey, is this the proper IRC channel for self-built kernels?
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[19:02] <das_j> Sooo, is it possible to build an arm64 kernel that works both on the 3 and on the 3+?
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[19:04] <das_j> make bcm2*_defconfig only exists for arm, and bcmrpi3_defconfig doesn't work on the 3+
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[20:26] <norwood67> Hi. i have two nic on my rpi. i'm wanting to force the cifs client to use eth1 to mount a directory on a windows machine. It doesn't seem I can do this but I might be missing something.
[20:27] <Matt> you've got two NICs on the same network?
[20:27] <norwood67> i do
[20:27] <Matt> linux behaviour in such situations is... probably not what you expect
[20:27] <norwood67> yeah. i am seeing that
[20:27] <Matt> you probably need to roll up your sleaves and go digging through some documentation
[20:28] <Matt> you're probably going to want to look at the rp_filter sysctl, and have a look at "ip rule" and "ip route"
[20:29] * linzst (~linzst@unaffiliated/linzst) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[20:29] <norwood67> yeah, i've been doing that too. i'm thinking that i might turn off the slower one ... and maybe need to limit the bandwidth used by cifs because that can saturate the connection and then i can't get dns or dhcp request
[20:29] <ShorTie> add what does 2 nic's on the same network gain you ??
[20:29] <Matt> and possibly the iptables connmark module
[20:29] * sdoherty (sdoherty@nat/redhat/x-huoguqstmasuucac) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[20:30] <norwood67> i wanted the cifs on eth1 and everything else on eth0
[20:30] <Matt> also keep in mind on a pi all your connectivity is limited by a single USB connection to the SoC
[20:30] <ShorTie> ^^^^
[20:30] <norwood67> right
[20:30] <Matt> which is probably more of a bottleneck than your ethernet connection
[20:30] <norwood67> so, if i saturate one nic then the other is going to suffer too
[20:31] <norwood67> right
[20:31] <norwood67> ok, back to single nic...which i figured.
[20:32] <Matt> you /can/ do it - I do exactly this in iSCSI environments with servers that have multiple gig-e connections
[20:32] <ShorTie> a minipc might be better choice then a pi, mine has 2 nic's
[20:32] <norwood67> also, pfsense doesn't like the two as i'm getting arp errors every hour or so
[20:32] <Matt> you probably just won't see much benefit on a pi I don't think
[20:32] * mythos (~mythos@unaffiliated/mythos) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[20:32] <norwood67> right
[20:32] <Matt> norwood67: yeah - that's where you need to look at rp_filter
[20:33] <Matt> the default configuration is to reply to ARP requests on the interface they arrive on, with the MAC of that interface
[20:33] <norwood67> thanks Matt and ShorTie, this confirms what I was starting to think.
[20:33] <Matt> so long as the IP belongs to the system in question
[20:33] <Matt> you can see how this might be a problem with two nics on the same network :)
[20:33] * pavlushka (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) Quit (Quit: See you on the other side)
[20:33] <norwood67> Matt, what minipc are you using?
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[20:34] <Matt> I'm not - I do this stuff on an enterprise scale with big expensive servers :)
[20:34] <norwood67> yeah, i knew this Matt but you know. i have to relearn this every couple of years.
[20:35] <norwood67> @matt: ah, yeah, not working with large stuff at the moment, this is just my home network and stuff.
[20:35] <ShorTie> like this minipc, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Partaker-B5-Business-Office-Mini-Pc-with-5th-Gen-Intel-14nm-Quad-Core-N3150-Processor/32550695648.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.b93b4c4d7B3Bng
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[20:37] <norwood67> @ShorTie nice
[20:37] <norwood67> @ShorTie what OS are you running on that machine?
[20:39] <ShorTie> debian
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[20:42] <rain1> hello
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[20:42] <norwood67> hi rain1
[20:43] <rain1> I'm trying to cross compile build some code for a raspberry pi, im on arch linux & using arm-none-eabi-gcc
[20:43] <rain1> I got these command line flags -march=armv7-a -mtune=cortex-a7 -mfloat-abi=hard
[20:43] <rain1> but when I try to build i get the error: cc1: error: -mfloat-abi=hard: selected processor lacks an FPU
[20:43] <rain1> just wondering if anybody knows about this error or saw it.. im not sure how to get around it
[20:44] <norwood67> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/ARM-Options.html
[20:44] <norwood67> check: -mfloat-abi=hard
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[20:47] <ShorTie> i'd say your trying to use spec's your cpu does not have
[20:47] <ShorTie> why not just compile on pi ??
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[20:54] <chris_99> i managed to get dockcross working for me to compile my stuff for the pi
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[21:55] * Toerkeium (b5e5da6e@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #raspberrypi
[21:56] <Toerkeium> Hello guys, I'm trying a PSU which outputs 5V 500 mA, but it doesn't power up the RPi. Should it?
[21:56] <Toerkeium> it's a microusb PSU
[21:57] <chris_99> i'm pretty sure 500mA is too low esp for the more recent versions
[21:57] <Toerkeium> chris_99: oh, well.. thank you!
[21:58] * giddles (~giddles@unaffiliated/giddles) has joined #raspberrypi
[21:58] <Khaytsus> Toerkeium: Get a PSU that's suggested by various sites.. they cost about $7
[21:59] * darksim (~quassel@78-72-41-176-no186.tbcn.telia.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[22:00] <Toerkeium> Khaytsus: yes, I was just testing one I had without use and didn't know how much the RPi was needing
[22:01] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[22:02] <Odd0002> which pi are you powering?
[22:03] <Toerkeium> it's a PI 3 model b
[22:03] <Odd0002> ah ok
[22:03] <mfa298> about the only pi that might work on 500mA is the Zero, the newer 3B and 3B+ need over an amp (2.5A is recommended)
[22:03] <Odd0002> you need a better PSU then
[22:03] <Toerkeium> great
[22:04] <Toerkeium> didn't know my notebook USB port supplied that much
[22:04] <chris_99> you're powering it from your notebook?
[22:04] <Odd0002> USB 3.0+ supplies 900 ma
[22:04] <Toerkeium> chris_99: right now working on it, yes
[22:04] <Khaytsus> Don't do that for real. It's not stable enough.
[22:04] <Toerkeium> but I've tried a PSU
[22:05] <Toerkeium> oh, really Khaytsus ? not tu power it up from a computer?
[22:05] <Odd0002> depends on the USB port but 900ma isn't enough for it to run at full speed
[22:05] <Odd0002> on all cores
[22:06] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ has joined #raspberrypi
[22:06] <Toerkeium> nice
[22:06] <Khaytsus> Toerkeium: Not for long term us no
[22:06] <Toerkeium> good to know Khaytsus
[22:06] <Toerkeium> thank youç
[22:11] * GraysonBriggs (~GraysonBr@206-51-126-226.up.net) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[22:12] * sdoherty (sdoherty@nat/redhat/x-dphufqqfcymvnrip) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:13] <chris_99> So, dumb question, what does the PoE hat actually do, i can see something that looks transformer-esque on it
[22:13] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[22:14] <ShorTie> PoE is normally > 5v, so i could see the need for a transformer
[22:14] <Odd0002> powers the pi using the power supplied through a PoE injector or PoE switch on the other end of the Ethernet cable
[22:14] <Odd0002> is the official hat out now?
[22:14] <chris_99> ah, so maybe it's a buck converter or something too?
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[22:16] * tvm (~tvm@router-sever1-nat-m.pilsfree.net) Quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
[22:18] <Odd0002> I don't want to go out to buy a heatsink, so what can I put on the pi to act as a heatsink?
[22:20] <artok> heatsink
[22:20] <chris_99> heh
[22:20] * Karyon (~Karyon@unaffiliated/karyon) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[22:20] <Odd0002> so far I've been using a quarter on top of a penny on top of the CPU
[22:21] <chris_99> heh, does that help
[22:21] <mlelstv> it probably looks cute
[22:21] <Odd0002> not sure, but the penny and quarter were really hot when I took them off
[22:21] <artok> it keeps them hot
[22:22] <Odd0002> I have a pentium 3 heatsink, but the rest of the pi is in the way
[22:22] <artok> it does nothing for the cpu because you don't add any area that is in contact with cooler air
[22:22] <Odd0002> well the quarter has a bigger surface area than the CPU
[22:22] <artok> how many % ?
[22:22] <chris_99> artok: need something with fins?
[22:23] <Odd0002> uhh no idea
[22:23] <mlelstv> add more quarters on top
[22:23] <artok> fins are there just to add area that contacts molecules in the air
[22:23] <chris_99> add a fish
[22:23] <Odd0002> that increases thermal mass more than surface area
[22:23] <Odd0002> also I don't want to short out the board if they fall
[22:24] <Khaytsus> Odd0002: Heat in your heatsink is good. It means it's not in the device you're cooling.
[22:24] <Odd0002> yes
[22:24] <Khaytsus> However, just dumping random change on your devices seems like a really bad idea in terms of potentially shorting things out
[22:24] * Toerkeium (b5e5da6e@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[22:24] <Khaytsus> Plus once they get saturated they won't help anymore, since they are not going to radiate heat very well
[22:24] * louisdk (~louisdk@static-5-103-138-205.ip.fibianet.dk) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:24] <mlelstv> you need lots of surface to get a significant effect.
[22:24] <Khaytsus> Get a heatsink. You can find 'em anywhere, or steal 'em off some other device or old mobo ;)
[22:24] <chris_99> I recall something about comparing thermal pastes, and apparently toothpaste worked pretty well ;)
[22:24] <Odd0002> well I'm keeping it level and trying to avoid letting them touch other stuff
[22:25] <Odd0002> toothpaste works well, for a day
[22:25] <Odd0002> I have thermal compound
[22:25] <Odd0002> and a pentium 3 heatsink
[22:25] <mlelstv> there are ceramic heatsinks too
[22:25] <Odd0002> but it's way too big
[22:25] <Khaytsus> Even a thermal sticker and a heatsink will do better than nothing.. or.. coinage
[22:25] <Khaytsus> But for most efficient, yeah you want some silver paste, VERY VERY VERY thin.
[22:25] <mlelstv> in my experience, a heatsink alone has a very small effect unless it is huge.
[22:25] <Khaytsus> If it's not almost transparent it's not as efficient as it could be. But reality is you don't need to sweat it that much.
[22:26] <Odd0002> I have CPU heatsink compound from when I built my PC 2 years ago
[22:26] <chris_99> mlelstv: cool i've not heard of ceramic heatsinks before
[22:26] <mlelstv> i.e. use the case as a heatsink.
[22:26] <mlelstv> otherwise you always need some airflow, i.e. a fan.
[22:26] <Odd0002> throttle temps are 85c right?
[22:26] <Khaytsus> Personally my pi's run maybd 43c max.. the one on my garage is like 60c.
[22:26] <Khaytsus> But it's pretty hot out there, and it's in a box
[22:26] <Odd0002> oh I was running the dolphin emulator on it and it ran at 70c
[22:27] <Khaytsus> Even a very small fan pushing a very small amount of air through with a heatsink will drop temps dramatically
[22:27] <Khaytsus> I personally don't do anything cpu intensive on pis
[22:27] <Odd0002> but it did get 3-5 fps using a 64 bit OS!
[22:27] * nshire (~nealshire@unaffiliated/nealshire) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:27] <chris_99> haha
[22:27] <Odd0002> next up: x86 emulation through qemu, install XP, then run crysis
[22:27] <chris_99> lol
[22:28] <chris_99> there's interestingly an x86->arm translatory thing
[22:28] <chris_99> for the pi
[22:28] * pksato (~PEBKAC@unaffiliated/pksato) Quit (Quit: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair)
[22:28] <mlelstv> temperature: 65.528 85.000 degC
[22:28] <mlelstv> that's a 3b+ idle
[22:28] <Odd0002> I tried to install XP in raspbian but qemu kept crashing due to some corruption or something
[22:28] * Darcidride (~Darcidrid@2a01:e35:8b4a:ca10::719e:e3e1) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:28] <Odd0002> pointer double free or corruption
[22:28] <Khaytsus> mlelstv: hmm, maybe 3b's run hot. Only 3b I have online is the one in the garage
[22:28] <mlelstv> temperature: 42.932 85.000 degC
[22:28] <Khaytsus> My 2b in the house is like 43c
[22:29] <mlelstv> that's a 3b idle... but with a small fan
[22:29] <Khaytsus> But it's like 99% idle
[22:29] <chris_99> https://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop/ not used it so can't comment
[22:29] <chris_99> but it sounds interesting
[22:29] <mlelstv> environment temperature here is 28C...
[22:29] <Odd0002> but that costs money
[22:29] <Odd0002> heh
[22:29] <Khaytsus> I keep saying I need to set up my pis to feed info to cacti...
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[22:29] * artok (~azo@business-c25928-53.syi.inet.fi) Quit (Quit: argh)
[22:33] <Odd0002> hmm, guess I can look for a fan but then I don't have a way to power it
[22:33] <Odd0002> unless I can just plug a PC fan into the GPIO pins somewhere
[22:34] <Odd0002> but I don't think that's going to work too well
[22:35] <chris_99> cacti does what exactly out of interest, is it something that collects logs?
[22:35] <Odd0002> it's just a bunch of cactuses stationed in front of computer screens
[22:35] <chris_99> lol
[22:36] * Colti (Miramar-FL@unaffiliated/colti) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[22:37] <mlelstv> cacti collects some data and produces graphs from it. Originally it was used to monitor network traffic.
[22:37] * asteele_ (~cronoh@2601:646:102:c370:4876:f294:623d:5f92) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:37] * patr0clus (~s3nd1v0g1@unaffiliated/patr0clus) has joined #raspberrypi
[22:38] * OO-Dragon (~OO-Dragon@S0106c0562764dce8.wk.shawcable.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:38] <chris_99> ah neat
[22:38] * asteele (~cronoh@c-73-241-204-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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[22:42] <Odd0002> how is the status of wayland for the pi?
[22:42] <Odd0002> I saw those demo videos years ago and I'm wondering if any progress has been made
[22:45] * Colti (Miramar-FL@unaffiliated/colti) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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[22:48] <Lartza> Someone just asked this today. At best unsupported, at worst unworking
[22:48] * oodsway (~oodsway@unaffiliated/oodsway) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[22:49] <Odd0002> oh well
[22:50] * redstarcomrade (~quassel@cpe-104-175-255-182.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[22:55] <Odd0002> any way of getting opengl or gles 3.0 on the pi (other than through llvmpipe/full software rendering)?
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[23:05] * hungig (~hungig@router-taduha-nat-e.pilsfree.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:05] <X-M4ch1nA_> So I added a keyboard shortcut to the Power logo button on a small portable keyboard, "shutdown -h now". It works great to power down with a power, but is there a way to make it power back on the same way? Probably not (without wiring my own button to gpio, or buying a IR reciever module), but I thought I'd ask anyways since even powering down leaves cpu running
[23:05] * CyberManifest (~CyberMani@50-25-87-106.amrlcmtk05.res.dyn.suddenlink.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:06] <hungig> if i screw my arch linux installation on raspberry pi, can i safely start over and install raspbian?
[23:06] * patr0clus (~s3nd1v0g1@unaffiliated/patr0clus) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[23:06] <Khaytsus> hungig: just rewrite the sdcard
[23:06] <X-M4ch1nA_> hungig: yes
[23:06] <X-M4ch1nA_> What he said
[23:06] <Khaytsus> X-M4ch1nA_: powering down does not leave a cpu running
[23:07] <hungig> ok, so if i have NOOBS on it, it should be pretty easy, right?
[23:08] * _BigWings_ (~Thunderbi@modemcable037.137-178-173.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Quit: _BigWings_)
[23:08] <X-M4ch1nA_> Khaytsus: I've read that it does several places. And also leaves power to the usb ports on. That's why powering down still leaves the red LED on. Only unplugging after power down stops all power completely
[23:08] * goiko (~goiko@unaffiliated/goiko) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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[23:10] * X-M4ch1nA_ is now known as X-M4ch1nA
[23:11] * X-M4ch1nA is now known as X-M4ch1nA_
[23:14] <Encrypt> hungig, Just rewrite the SD Card with Raspbian :x
[23:14] <hungig> does NOOBS include installation for Arch Linux?
[23:15] <hungig> I saw on reddit that it does but can't find it in the documentation
[23:18] * norwood67 (~human@c-76-102-39-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: seeya)
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[23:19] <X-M4ch1nA_> hungig: they are different distros. If u want noobs, download noobs, if you want arch, download and flash arch. Simple
[23:19] * jkhsjdhjs (~jkhsjdhjs@unaffiliated/jkhsjdhjs) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:20] <hungig> thought noobs was just an installer not a distro
[23:21] * AaronMT (~textual@2607:fea8:3ddf:e528:35e2:9d10:1ccf:6f8c) Quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
[23:21] * louisdk (~louisdk@static-5-103-138-205.ip.fibianet.dk) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:22] <X-M4ch1nA_> Just flash the arch linux img, if it boots. You were successful. Not too hard of a process. Not Mich to mess up. Not at that process anyways
[23:22] <X-M4ch1nA_> *Not much
[23:23] <jkhsjdhjs> hey, i'm trying to access the gpio ports of my raspberry pi 1 b as normal (non-root) user so i added myself to the gpio group. however, /dev/gpiomem is owned by root:root and not root:gpio. i could easily change the group, but i don't think that change would survive a reboot, or would it?
[23:23] <Khaytsus> X-M4ch1nA_: Huh, googled it... yep, they appear to be halted but not powered off entirely... that sucks. Although I rarely have a pi plugged in powered off
[23:25] <jkhsjdhjs> ah, seems like i have to create a udev rule for this
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[23:26] <X-M4ch1nA_> Khaytsus: ya, mine's almost always plugged in. I have one of the usb cords with a switch on it though, so I just switch it off instead of unplugging (after power down). But since it's in a halted state, that's what gave me the idea that maybe I can power it back on via a command or something. Maybe I'd have to make a script for gpio, then add the script to a shortcut key?
[23:28] * TheSin (~TheSin@gateway.bluefalls.ca) Quit (Quit: Client exiting)
[23:31] <jkhsjdhjs> worked
[23:31] <X-M4ch1nA_> Where's gordonDrogon, he'd know
[23:34] * Stromeko (~Stromeko@unaffiliated/stromeko) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[23:34] * mschorm (~mschorm@ip-62-245-104-215.net.upcbroadband.cz) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[23:35] <Khaytsus> X-M4ch1nA_: there is a POE hat, haven't looked into it
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[23:40] <X-M4ch1nA_> Khaytsus: I'm aware of the hat, there's also an IR hat. I low-key hate hats, and like to find better solutions. I have an arduino IR module that's a quarter the size of the rpi hat, but it's for arduino, so I haven't checked if I can implement it yet, sure I could, but then I'd also be forced to a clear case for the IR to work
[23:42] * hungig (~hungig@router-taduha-nat-e.pilsfree.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[23:43] <X-M4ch1nA_> Either that, or have the module outside of the case, which is just ridiculous. gordonDrogon has that famous WiringPi script that I might be able to use to power on, since it allows remote access to gpio
[23:44] <X-M4ch1nA_> But idk if gpio is also active in the halted state
[23:45] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[23:47] <chris_99> i could be missing what you mean, are you trying to power up the pi, when it's halted, via another pi?
[23:48] <X-M4ch1nA_> chris_99: no, I want to power on from halted state via a shortcut key on the usb keyboard
[23:49] * InverseRhombus (~InverseRh@ has joined #raspberrypi
[23:49] <X-M4ch1nA_> But via another pi would also be useful intel
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[23:51] <chris_99> hmm, can you 'suspend' a pi?
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[23:52] <X-M4ch1nA_> chris_99: idek
[23:52] <X-M4ch1nA_> I think so
[23:53] <X-M4ch1nA_> I think I recall "sleep" being an option under the Power option
[23:53] <chris_99> suspending is different to halting thoo, i'd be suprised if you can wake up the pi from a halted state via usb though
[23:54] * Blackpajamas (~blackpaja@ Quit (Quit: Ciao!)
[23:55] <X-M4ch1nA_> Ya, it's wishful thinking, but was just an idea since usb stays powered in halted state, that maybe it could take commands through usb as well. Then I could add a gpio function to a keyboard shortcut
[23:55] <chris_99> there are apparently some gpio pins you can short to start it up again though iirc
[23:56] * redrum88 (~Helder@ has joined #raspberrypi
[23:56] <X-M4ch1nA_> chris_99: yes, 1 and 5. That's how you wire a power button, already succeeded in that, was just wondering if there was a remote way
[23:56] <chris_99> ahh
[23:58] * techwave61 (~py@ has joined #raspberrypi
[23:58] <chris_99> could get a wifi socket - http://sonoff.itead.cc/en/products/residential/s20-socket such as that

These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.