#raspberrypi IRC Log


IRC Log for 2018-11-10

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

[0:00] * echoSMILE (~echoSMILE@unaffiliated/echosmile) has joined #raspberrypi
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[3:07] * finalbeta (~finalbeta@ptr-e2o38d3vamjsb1ezw1f.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be) has joined #raspberrypi
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[3:25] * chris349 (~office@104-12-70-21.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:25] <chris349> I put in /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections a few WiFI connections and when I do nmcli list connections it shows the connection, but its not connecting
[3:26] <chris349> How can I add, without any GUI, multiple WiFI connections and have it attmept to connect automatically?
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[3:41] * dj_pi (~dj_pi@d4-50-221-173.col.wideopenwest.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:42] * jiffe (~jiffe@unaffiliated/jiffe) has joined #raspberrypi
[3:44] <jiffe> so I've got home automation setup but one of the things I've been hard pressed to figure out is whether my tv is on or off
[3:44] <jiffe> I see there is a cec-client usable from a rpi
[3:46] * _BigWings_ (~Thunderbi@modemcable063.162-178-173.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[3:54] <jiffe> I imagined this was doing something with the HDMI port but now that I'm reading this it might be over usb somehow
[3:55] <friendofafriend> Over USB?
[3:55] <friendofafriend> cec-client? That's over HDMI.
[3:55] * skunkz (~skunkz@eth-east-parth2-46-193-65-193.wb.wifirst.net) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
[3:55] <morfin> RPI does not have DHCP boot?
[3:56] <morfin> *netboot
[3:56] <friendofafriend> morfin: The Pi3 can PXE boot with no SD card, other Pi versions require one.
[3:56] <morfin> oh Pi3 can PXE boot
[3:56] <morfin> cool
[3:57] <friendofafriend> jiffe: echo scan | cec-cleint -s -d 1 | grep "power status"
[3:58] <friendofafriend> Drat, typo: echo scan | cec-client -s -d 1 | grep "power status"
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[4:00] <jiffe> friendofafriend: I get * failed to open vchiq instance
[4:01] <friendofafriend> jiffe: You're probably running as a user, and tickling the /dev/vchiq requires permissions.
[4:02] <friendofafriend> You can test the command with root, but it would be best to add your user to the "video" group. sudo usermod -a -G video pi
[4:03] * jakent (~john@pool-71-127-52-40.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: jakent)
[4:03] <jiffe> ah good call
[4:03] <jiffe> yup that's exactly what I need, sweet
[4:03] * jakent (~john@pool-71-127-52-40.washdc.fios.verizon.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[5:10] <phinxy> PXE boot works if there is not a router in between for some reason
[5:13] <friendofafriend> Like a SOHO router?
[5:14] * clackety (~clackety@gateway/tor-sasl/clackety) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:15] <phinxy> Does SOHO mean a generic router that your ISP give you for "free"? i.e. not enterprise, locked down consumer grade junk
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[5:15] * cstk421 (~cstk421@2600:380:442d:e5f8:b009:74d7:9811:7f1f) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:15] <friendofafriend> More or less, Small Office/Home Office.
[5:16] <friendofafriend> Is the router doing DHCP?
[5:19] * pi0 (zeropi@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-kuflqwivgnigvgsp) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:19] <pi0> is it possible to use the gps from a android and sync with rpi zero?
[5:19] <phinxy> Yes, it does all kinds of stuff. It even sends out its own PXE image
[5:19] * djhworld (~djhworld@ Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[5:21] <friendofafriend> pi0: When you say, "the gps from an android", do you mean you've removed a GPS module from a phone?
[5:22] <friendofafriend> phinxy: Wow, you've managed to coax the router your ISP gave you into serving images by TFTP?
[5:22] <pi0> hey friendofafriend! how is everything! it is an older android phone with 4.4
[5:23] <friendofafriend> pi0: It's going great! How have you been?
[5:23] <pi0> tiny little screen i want to use it more of a BT, GPS and screen for my pi
[5:23] <pi0> not too bad, just putting some of these older devices to use so i learn a little more
[5:25] <friendofafriend> Do you have the phone rooted?
[5:25] * jakent (~john@pool-71-127-52-40.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: jakent)
[5:25] * uks (~uksio@p200300CB1BD8E30BC57E60DFF009273E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[5:27] <pi0> yes
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[5:28] <pi0> not a bad way to use an older phone
[5:28] <pi0> no need to buy lcd module for pi
[5:28] <pi0> or gps
[5:28] * leorat (~rat@unaffiliated/leorat) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:28] <pi0> thinking maybe usb ssh to pi?
[5:28] <pi0> from android phone
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[5:32] * giddles (~giddles@unaffiliated/giddles) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:32] <friendofafriend> So, I see a couple ways that you could accomplish sharing GPS to your network with an Android phone. One way is the "ShareGPS" app, and another is "GPSTether".
[5:34] * jakent (~john@pool-71-127-52-40.washdc.fios.verizon.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:34] <friendofafriend> There's also some code here that should feed your phone's GPS data into GPSd on your Raspi. https://github.com/tiagoshibata/Android-GPSd-Client
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[5:34] * bitmask (~bitmask@pool-71-187-148-49.nwrknj.ftas.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: Gone to sleep...)
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[5:36] <friendofafriend> Yeah, trying out that GPSd Client now, looks really cool. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.github.tiagoshibata.gpsdclient
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[5:37] <pi0> all you need GPSd apk installed for this to work?
[5:39] <friendofafriend> Well, you'd install GPSd on your Raspberry Pi, and then your Android phone acts as a source for GPSd on your Raspberry Pi.
[5:39] <friendofafriend> Which means you get time, location, elevation data, and speed of the phone on your Raspi.
[5:41] <pi0> apt install gpsd?
[5:42] <friendofafriend> Right, and you don't need gpsd-clients or the -dbg package.
[5:42] * redstarcomrade (~quassel@cpe-104-175-255-182.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:44] <jiffe> so I've got kind of an odd HDMI setup in that I have my TV plugged into the main port of my audio receiver and I also have a projector plugged into the sub port in the receiver
[5:44] <jiffe> it seems cec-client only shows the TV
[5:45] <jiffe> I tried plugging the pi into the second HDMI port of the projector and cec-client scan shows nothing
[5:45] <pi0> friendofafriend: but it communicates via wifi? i mean pi and android phone
[5:45] <pi0> not usb, correct?
[5:45] <jiffe> so I'm not sure how to get the projector status
[5:45] <friendofafriend> pi0: It's just communicating with a server and port, so it will take whatever route is available.
[5:46] <pi0> would usb be possible
[5:46] <pi0> since this is a pi zero w/ out the w
[5:46] <pi0> without the w
[5:46] <pi0> that is
[5:47] <friendofafriend> Sure, you could use Ethernet mode and tether to the phone by USB OTG.
[5:47] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:47] <friendofafriend> jiffe: If you plug the Raspberry Pi directly into the projector, does cec-client see the projector?
[5:48] <pi0> does that require a different apk app to be installed
[5:48] * cstk421 (~cstk421@2600:380:442d:e5f8:b009:74d7:9811:7f1f) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[5:48] <friendofafriend> Nope, you'd use that GPSd client linked above.
[5:48] * tdy (~tdy@unaffiliated/tdy) has joined #raspberrypi
[5:49] <jiffe> friendofafriend: negative, I tried both ports, cec-client only reports itself in either case
[5:49] <friendofafriend> pi0: You set the Pi Zero into OTG Ethernet mode like this. https://gist.github.com/gbaman/50b6cca61dd1c3f88f41
[5:51] <friendofafriend> jiffe: Is there any other control ports on the projector, like RS-232?
[5:51] <friendofafriend> Are there**
[5:52] <pi0> aah so when i plug it into to the android it appears as ethernet connect
[5:53] <friendofafriend> You got it! And because your app is talking to an address on that network, traffic will go through the USB Ethernet device.
[5:54] <pi0> funny thing now is a micro to micro usb cable
[5:56] * gooooootime (~gooooooti@unaffiliated/gooooootime) Quit (Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com)
[5:56] <friendofafriend> Nah, it's not micro-to-micro. You need to use an OTG adapter.
[5:57] <pi0> whooop, i just happen to own one..booom!
[5:58] <friendofafriend> Hey, lucky you! They're pretty cheap, but who likes waiting for delivery?
[6:01] <pi0> seriously lol, barely getting ebay summer items from china
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[6:03] <bhw> hi all, wow much more people than I thought
[6:04] * crimastergogo (~crimaster@ has joined #raspberrypi
[6:05] <friendofafriend> Hello bhw.
[6:07] <bhw> can anyone help a noob with ip forwarding? all traffic between to LAN interfaces
[6:09] <bhw> pi connects to wifi router and serves internet for a lan on its eth0, I managed DHCP DNS and internet for the lan on eth0, but no ping goes through from main lan to lan on pi's eth0
[6:09] * maetopid (~maetopid@2600:1003:b11e:c8c2:1bb:cd70:a270:a344) has joined #raspberrypi
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[6:11] <bhw> who would be the best to talk regarding this? thanks!
[6:12] <friendofafriend> When you "echo /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward" , what is the result?
[6:12] <friendofafriend> Drat, sorry.
[6:12] <friendofafriend> "cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward".
[6:12] <bhw> its enabled, but I recheck
[6:13] <bhw> 1
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[6:13] * fnDross (~fnDross@unaffiliated/fndross) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:14] <bhw> most of the tutorials stop at forwarding the interfaces and then masquerade postrouting
[6:14] <bhw> interestingly the internet access works wihtout the forward rules, only leaving the the postrouting line in
[6:15] <bhw> i can't get my head around this thing since two days
[6:16] <bhw> the pi lan can ping the main internet router but nobody else in the main lan where the pi wifi is connected to
[6:16] * crimastergogo_ (~crimaster@ has joined #raspberrypi
[6:17] <bhw> damn, kids are up. need to take them to school. thanks anyway! i'll be back
[6:17] * bhw (54032874@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has left #raspberrypi
[6:18] * crimastergogo (~crimaster@ Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[6:18] * crimastergogo_ is now known as crimastergogo
[6:20] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[6:21] * Acelogic (~Acelogic@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[6:21] * maetopid (~maetopid@2600:1003:b11e:c8c2:1bb:cd70:a270:a344) Quit (Quit: quit)
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[6:22] * maetopid (~maetopid@2600:1003:b11e:c8c2:1bb:cd70:a270:a344) Quit (Client Quit)
[6:23] * godane (~guest@c-24-91-213-140.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[6:24] * maetopid (~maetopid@4.sub-174-204-6.myvzw.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:26] <pi0> friendofafriend: which rooting app do you reommend?
[6:28] <friendofafriend> I think Magisk is probably the way to go.
[6:29] * Toadisattva (~Toadisatt@gateway/tor-sasl/toadisattva) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[6:30] * maetopid (~maetopid@4.sub-174-204-6.myvzw.com) Quit (Quit: quit)
[6:32] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:33] <pi0> safer than king-root
[6:34] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit (Excess Flood)
[6:36] <fnDross> anyone familiar with cana on amazon?
[6:42] * pavlushka (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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[6:48] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[6:48] <friendofafriend> fnDross: The wildly popular kit company, that even sells product in Target?
[6:53] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:54] * maetopid (~maetopid@2600:1003:b11e:c8c2:1bb:cd70:a270:a344) has joined #raspberrypi
[6:56] * maetopid (~maetopid@2600:1003:b11e:c8c2:1bb:cd70:a270:a344) Quit (Client Quit)
[6:57] <fnDross> seeing a big price jump on things that look to have the same stuff
[6:59] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[7:02] <fnDross> from 89.99-180.45
[7:02] <fnDross> ..same stuff >:/
[7:06] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:07] * godane (~guest@c-24-91-213-140.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
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[7:15] * crimastergogo (~crimaster@ Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[7:24] * stekro (~stekro@x4db94259.dyn.telefonica.de) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[7:49] * pavlushka (~pavlushka@ubuntu/member/pavlushka) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:50] * chris349 (~office@104-12-70-21.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[7:51] * Oatmeal (Suzeanne@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/suzeanne) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[7:57] <friendofafriend> fnDross: That kind of stuff is to be expected. You're really paying for someone else to collect parts and come up with things you can do with them.
[7:59] * linzst (~linzst@unaffiliated/linzst) has joined #raspberrypi
[7:59] <friendofafriend> The education is well worth the price, especially if you're just starting out or teaching a youngster.
[8:02] * frank1e (~frank1e@unaffiliated/frank1e) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:06] * stiv (~steve@blender/coder/stivs) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[8:11] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit ()
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[8:14] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit (Client Quit)
[8:14] <fnDross> so is that minecraft editor or w/e it is,.. free?
[8:17] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:17] <fnDross> seen it in the promo for kano
[8:25] <friendofafriend> I think it's probably the "Universal Minecraft Editor".
[8:26] <friendofafriend> "A powered-up version of Minecraft, combined with the coding editor Kano Code", no clue.
[8:27] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit ()
[8:28] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:29] <pi0> hmm
[8:29] <pi0> i need to stream from ubuntu to firestick is that possible?
[8:31] <linzst> pi0 idk but try chromium
[8:31] <friendofafriend> Not sure, I'm using minidlnad. What do you mean when you say "streaming"?
[8:31] * Oatmeal (~Suzeanne@c-73-169-85-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[8:38] <pi0> stream a mp4 from my laptop to the firestick
[8:39] <pi0> friendofafriend: does the firestick need a special app to connect to laptop and see the stream
[8:39] * sdothum (~znc@dsl-173-206-41-214.tor.primus.ca) Quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in)
[8:41] * s8548a (~s8548a@unaffiliated/s8548a) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[8:44] <fnDross> those clear cases they use.. i can still add a screen afterwards right?
[8:48] <fnDross> and battery addon
[8:49] * Tw|tch (~Snapped@075-177-088-100.res.spectrum.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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[8:57] <fnDross> friendofafriend, im thinking he's moreso interested in the making things do stuff on the breadboard.. leading into robotics
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[9:00] * lankanmon (~LKNnet@CPE64777d632383-CM64777d632380.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Quit: Left...)
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[9:14] * Tw|tch (~Snapped@075-177-088-100.res.spectrum.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[9:15] <friendofafriend> pi0: Not sure, what I see says you can sideload Kodi.
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[9:18] * godane (~guest@c-24-91-213-140.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[9:20] * learningc (~learningc@ Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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[9:30] * nibble_zero (~nibble_ze@ Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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[9:31] * nighty- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) Quit (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke)
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[9:35] <pi0> hey thats a good idea, thans friendofafriend !
[9:35] <pi0> be right back
[9:35] * pi0 (zeropi@gateway/shell/xshellz/x-kuflqwivgnigvgsp) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[9:39] * sir_guy_carleton (~username@ Quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2)
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[10:01] * Volis (uid12493@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vanhuerigtoltavo) has joined #raspberrypi
[10:02] * leorat (~rat@unaffiliated/leorat) Quit (Quit: leorat)
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[10:21] <friendofafriend> Always welcome, pi0. ;)
[10:28] * widmo (~widmo@unaffiliated/widmo) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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[12:50] <Encrypt> Hello guys o/
[12:50] <BurtyB> moo
[12:50] <Encrypt> Is there a USB current limiter component on the very first Rasbperry Pi 1 B?
[12:51] * crimastergogo (~crimaster@ Quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
[12:51] <gordonDrogon> yes.
[12:52] <gordonDrogon> the very first ones had a 110mA polyfuse.
[12:52] <mfa298> no current limit chip (like the newer ones) but the very first modules had small (100mA) polyfuses
[12:52] <Encrypt> 110mA :/
[12:52] <Encrypt> That's nothing
[12:53] * s8548a (~s8548a@unaffiliated/s8548a) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[12:53] <Encrypt> So, 0.550 W
[12:53] <Encrypt> I guess my Waveshare screen won't work (T.T)
[12:53] <Encrypt> And I have no USB hub around
[12:55] * pauliunas (uid237462@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mzwckbwfitbugkjt) has joined #raspberrypi
[12:56] <mfa298> that's only the very first batches of 1B, after that those polyfuses were replaced with a 0R link then removed from the PCB entirly. but there's still a ~1A polyfuse on the input which covers the SoC and USB
[12:57] <Encrypt> Yeah :S
[12:57] <Encrypt> I may have to buy another Pi then...
[13:00] * s8548a (~s8548a@unaffiliated/s8548a) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:00] * Gathis (~TheBlack@unaffiliated/gathis) has joined #raspberrypi
[13:00] <gordonDrogon> many people hard-wired from the usb in to the usb outs..
[13:01] <gordonDrogon> I think the input polyfuse was 700mA in the early ones too - so 200mA for USB and 500mA for the SoC, etc.
[13:05] <mfa298> hmmm it might have been, I'm probably rembering the first official PSUs which were 1A
[13:05] <Encrypt> Lunch time :)
[13:05] * Encrypt (~Encrypt@2a01cb0401d1720076d02bfffe31b37c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Quit: Quit)
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[13:08] * davr0s (~textual@host109-156-49-67.range109-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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[14:31] * pksato (~PEBKAC@unaffiliated/pksato) Quit (Quit: Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair)
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[14:35] <gordonDrogon> mfa298, in the bad old days ;-)
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[14:40] <PhotoJim> gordonDrogon: Darmak and Jalad at Tanagra
[14:42] * clackety (~clackety@gateway/tor-sasl/clackety) has joined #raspberrypi
[14:42] <Encrypt> BTW, for those of you interested in having a GitHub-like website hosted on a Pi to show your projects to the world
[14:42] <Encrypt> Gitea is a perfect choice
[14:43] <Encrypt> I installed it on the Pi of a friend, it has an extremely low RAM / CPU footprint
[14:44] <PhotoJim> a Pi sounds perfect for that project then, as long as it has enough storage space
[14:44] <PhotoJim> (and an NFS share could cure that if needed)
[14:44] <Encrypt> PhotoJim, I installed it next to a Filebrowser instance too
[14:44] <Encrypt> And NginµX as reverse-proxy :)
[14:44] <Encrypt> NginX*
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[14:56] <gordonDrogon> I just use gitweb ..
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[15:14] <Cthulhux> i just use svn.
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[15:17] <gordonDrogon> could be worse - I used sccs for a long time...
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[15:20] <Cthulhux> what's wrong with sccs?
[15:20] <mfa298> kids these days don't know how lucky they are with tools like cvs, svn, git (I used sccs for a few years when I started working)
[15:20] <Cthulhux> it has a use case.
[15:20] <Cthulhux> i mean, it's "the standard" (according to POSIX).
[15:21] <Cthulhux> kids these days using git mostly don't know that there are better VCSs which are less of a mess
[15:21] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:21] <Cthulhux> they usually say "everyone uses linux so my 10-LoC project needs git too"
[15:21] <Cthulhux> which is a horrible approach IMO.
[15:21] <Cthulhux> *git
[15:21] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[15:22] <Cthulhux> throwing a 55626-command version control system on a one-person, one-branch, zero-releases project is like fishing with atom bombs
[15:22] <Cthulhux> it will have the right effect... and many more.
[15:22] * toomin (~Slartibar@unaffiliated/toomin) has joined #raspberrypi
[15:22] <Cthulhux> SVN scales much better.
[15:24] <Cthulhux> brb, eating cake.
[15:27] <Khaytsus> I can not imagine one thing svn does better than git
[15:27] <mlelstv> it doesn't fill your disk with repositories
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[15:28] <Khaytsus> You can do a shallow checkout if that's an issue
[15:29] <mfa298> I thought the whole idea of git was the other tools didnt scale as well (especially with thousands/millions of commits)
[15:29] <mlelstv> git doesn't scale
[15:29] <gordonDrogon> I wish I could learn more about git, but I just can't engage the enthusiasm. I only use it because people demanded it...
[15:30] <mlelstv> https://xkcd.com/1597/
[15:30] <gordonDrogon> that about sums it up...
[15:32] <Khaytsus> I've never had to blow away a git repo.. hard reset, yes.. typically because I did something stupid
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[15:32] <Khaytsus> i have gotten in a detached head state before, but only with my git edit wrapper that I use when trying to revert a change. I think I'm doing something silly in it... I wrote it long long ago, I really should review it
[15:32] <mlelstv> isn't that victim blaming?
[15:32] <Khaytsus> If I screw it up, I'm at fault.
[15:33] <mlelstv> if the tool lets you screw up easily, it's still your fault :)
[15:33] <Khaytsus> You can not idiot proof things;; there are much bigger idiots than you can account for.
[15:33] <mlelstv> that's why there is the KISS principle for us idiots :)
[15:35] <Khaytsus> Of course I think it all depends on what scale someone is working at... Linux seems to do fine with git.. at work everyone uses git. Some insant crap like SAP? Who knows.
[15:35] <Khaytsus> insane
[15:35] <mlelstv> they probably switch proprietary tools every two years.
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[15:36] <Khaytsus> Save money; ruin workflows and efficiency.
[15:37] <Khaytsus> They switched us at work from Google Suite to Office 365 a while back. Because it's cheaper, with some other bundles of nonsense. but welp, productivity in the toilet. Everything is slower and more unreliable.
[15:38] <mlelstv> they only want your best
[15:38] <gordonDrogon> sometimes I'm glad I'm self-employed..
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[15:47] * stiv worked at a company where they switched from expense Framemaker to cheap MS Word for doing book-length docs. eventually the tech writers quit due to frustrations like losing formating and page numbering. cost is not the only metric
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[15:52] <gordonDrogon> most startup SMEs I've worked for grow to the point of getting in expensive management - then things go downhill as the management forget it's an engineering driven company.
[15:54] <OpenSorceress> for startups, time === money
[15:54] <OpenSorceress> except when time > money
[15:54] <gordonDrogon> ot they go public then the term banded around is "exit strategy" ...
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[15:58] <Khaytsus> Yeah.. I do a lot of my work documenting test plans, test results, working with an offshore team via documentes... and DAILY with Office 365 it'll randomly say I need to login and lose the last 10+ minutes of work.
[15:58] <Khaytsus> Drives me utterly insane.
[15:59] <pwillard> Meh. I write docs with GIT now with the Ruby based ASCIIDOCTOR tools... my editor is Visual Studio code... I'm *that* annoyed with Office365..
[16:01] * clearcasting (~clearcast@ Quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.x-nightly-20181102-a1aca294 - https://znc.in)
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[16:11] <gordonDrogon> vim & latex user here ..
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[16:28] <Cthulhux> people still use vim? ;-)
[16:29] <BurtyB> yup :)
[16:34] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:34] <Jusii> have to, started it once 30 years ago and can't exit
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[16:35] <Cthulhux> i doubt that. there was no vim 30 years ago.
[16:38] <shauno> (vim is actually 30 years old)
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[16:39] <Cthulhux> the first public version of vim was released in 1991 which is less than 30 years.
[16:39] <mfa298> according to wiki vim (the clone) is only around 27 but the original vi is 42 years old
[16:40] <mfa298> but these days people tend to use the names interchangeably
[16:40] * Envil (~envil@55d4ec0a.access.ecotel.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:40] <Cthulhux> which is horrible and needs to stop, IMO.
[16:41] * TheNavyBear (~TheNavyBe@unaffiliated/thenavybear) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:41] <shauno> says he started working on it in 1988. so the author had vim 30 years ago, just no-one else
[16:42] <Cthulhux> bill joy said that vi was made for a world that ceased to exist decades ago. he was right.
[16:43] * dj_pi (~dj_pi@d4-50-221-173.col.wideopenwest.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:43] <stiv> that world still exists if you are a sysadmin
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[16:44] <Cthulhux> my sysadmin keyboards have arrow keys.
[16:46] * tjbp (~tom@2001:4b98:dc0:51:216:3eff:fe8a:81c5) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[16:46] <Cthulhux> and if i really have to rescue a failing OS with no graphical user interface (which is rare), there are enough options: mg, joe - i usually use ed or teco (yes, teco). but even if you dislike ed and teco, there is no sane reason to use an editor made for a much worse keyboard than yours.
[16:46] * crowley95 (~crowley95@cpe-108-176-247-248.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:47] <Cthulhux> gentoo comes with nano instead of vi. i'm not saying that nano was great, but... :-)
[16:47] * egilhh (~egilhh@186.81-167-3.customer.lyse.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[16:47] <Jusii> I just like the keyboard commands in vim
[16:47] <Jusii> like cut 5 lines below, delete 2 lines above etc
[16:47] <OpenSorceress> vim can do an awful lot. including support a mouse :)
[16:48] <Cthulhux> Jusii, those are actually the same commands as in ed. upgrade to ed! ;-)
[16:48] <OpenSorceress> :wq
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[16:48] <Cthulhux> OpenSorceress, if i have a mouse, i usually also have X --> time for a sane GUI editor :)
[16:49] <Jusii> I remember I've used ed in the past, maybe I'll take a look!
[16:49] <Cthulhux> btw. ed even saves you keystrokes - it uses wq instead of :wq
[16:49] <Cthulhux> :>
[16:49] <OpenSorceress> X? so much for headless?
[16:49] <OpenSorceress> :!
[16:49] <Cthulhux> ed uses ! instead of :!
[16:49] <Cthulhux> ha! ;-)
[16:49] <OpenSorceress> you know why : is good?
[16:49] <OpenSorceress> it requires deliberacy
[16:50] * akk (~akk@97-123-90-36.albq.qwest.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:50] <Jusii> oooo, so I'd even save some keystrokes
[16:50] <OpenSorceress> and then there's stuff like termcap or even just :set list
[16:50] <Cthulhux> if vim's "advantage" were the keyboard commands, getting rid of ":" would be a major achievement.
[16:50] * maetopid (~maetopid@63.sub-97-34-193.myvzw.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[16:51] <OpenSorceress> that's not the case. : provides a text editor with a programmatic interface
[16:51] <Cthulhux> ed (just like teco :-)) _is_ a programmatic interface
[16:52] <Cthulhux> there is no non-programmatic interface for it, because why?
[16:52] <OpenSorceress> ^V for example, ^] etc. Keystroke commands are much faster but there are so damn many of them
[16:52] <Jusii> but :wq is actually ZZ in vim
[16:52] <OpenSorceress> sometimes you don't need a text editor that makes you waffles
[16:53] <Cthulhux> ZZ is :x
[16:53] <Cthulhux> not :wq
[16:53] <OpenSorceress> ^wX iirc splits window
[16:53] <Cthulhux> ;-)
[16:53] * maetopid (~maetopid@63.sub-97-34-193.myvzw.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[16:53] <OpenSorceress> ^wS hops around
[16:53] <OpenSorceress> ... now I have to check
[16:53] <OpenSorceress> damn your eyes :P
[16:54] <akk> mm, waffles, I need that emacs package
[16:54] <Cthulhux> you can run ed inside vim inside an emacs shell inside an acme window
[16:54] <Cthulhux> i tried
[16:54] <Cthulhux> but you shouldnt :D
[16:54] <OpenSorceress> https://linuxhint.com/how-to-use-vim-split-screen/
[16:54] <mlelstv> .oO( vmunix.el )
[16:54] <OpenSorceress> :)
[16:54] <akk> Cthulhux: ZZ saves as well as exits.
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[16:55] <Cthulhux> akk, ZZ is still not :wq --> https://vi.stackexchange.com/a/5726
[16:55] <OpenSorceress> my bad. ^wv
[16:55] <Jusii> yea, ZZ saves only if there's modified buffer, :wq saves always
[16:56] <OpenSorceress> ^ws splits horizontally
[16:56] <OpenSorceress> no
[16:56] <OpenSorceress> :!wq saves always
[16:56] <OpenSorceress> :wq writes and quits
[16:56] <OpenSorceress> :!q quits
[16:56] <OpenSorceress> :!w writes always
[16:57] <mlelstv> and now the same for Wordstar
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[16:58] <Cthulhux> teco uses EX<Esc><Esc> for :wq and -EX<Esc><Esc> for :!q
[16:58] <Cthulhux> ;o)
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[16:59] <OpenSorceress> lol
[16:59] <OpenSorceress> :set termcap
[16:59] <OpenSorceress> :D
[16:59] <OpenSorceress> how about that
[16:59] <mlelstv> Esc is newfangled stuff.
[17:01] * gregbert (~gregbert@unaffiliated/gregbert) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:01] <mlelstv> the manual called it altmode
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[17:07] <gordonDrogon> OpenSorceress, did someone say waffles? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRq_SAuQDec
[17:09] * irdr (~irdr@bzq-79-182-32-216.red.bezeqint.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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[17:09] <gordonDrogon> I wrote "termcap" once.
[17:09] * irdr (~irdr@bzq-79-177-33-185.red.bezeqint.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:09] <gordonDrogon> bringing up a new *nix system - it needed an editor, man pages, nroff, more/less, etc. I started with termcap.
[17:11] <Cthulhux> "termcap" is another relict from a time when computers were different
[17:11] <Cthulhux> we should really work harder on make them go away
[17:11] * irdr (~irdr@bzq-79-177-33-185.red.bezeqint.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:11] <Cthulhux> the successor of unix has a GUI-only interface and it has been around for a quarter century now
[17:11] <Cthulhux> time to embrace it.
[17:11] <gordonDrogon> this was almost 30 years ago, mind.
[17:12] <akk> Cthulhux: You never ssh in to your pi?
[17:12] <OpenSorceress> Cthulhux: it never goes away. you're just leaning a van gogh on a pile of broken snowflakes soaked in cat piss
[17:13] <Cthulhux> ssh is annoying, it feels wrong to have to connect to a 2018 computer system with a "secure telnet".
[17:14] <OpenSorceress> Secure SHell
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[17:14] <Cthulhux> we have giant displays powered by powerful graphics cards, futuristic mice, awesome network connections. still we limit ourselves to technologies which are not much better than what the mid-70s had when talking between computers.
[17:14] <Cthulhux> "the future".
[17:14] * Cthulhux sighs, sadly.
[17:15] <phinxy> You have the complete opposite of my mindset
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[17:15] <OpenSorceress> Cthulhux: if you want to discuss why we stick with those tools seriously, I mean
[17:15] <Cthulhux> that's fine.
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[17:16] <Cthulhux> i would like to see a plan 9 world, not a unix world. because i *think* it would be amazing.
[17:16] <Cthulhux> YMMV.
[17:16] <OpenSorceress> when working on embedded stuff where efficiency of execution is critical to success
[17:16] * vjacob (~vjacob@ Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[17:16] <OpenSorceress> the more processes you heap onto an already incredibly complex system, the more crap you have to peel off to figure out what went wrong
[17:17] <stiv> embedded is a whole different world. running light, without overbyte as they used to say
[17:19] * irdr (~irdr@bzq-79-177-33-185.red.bezeqint.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:20] <OpenSorceress> and that includes integration of embedded. often you have to interact with the device with whatever minimalist interface it can manage to supply you an endpoint for
[17:20] <OpenSorceress> where vi is a luxury
[17:20] <akk> The line between embedded and non is increasingly vague.
[17:21] <akk> With something like a pi you don't have to count bytes any more, but it still makes sense to limit the running services.
[17:21] <gordonDrogon> and here's me wondering why my 6502 is mis-behaving when I pull the BE line low.....
[17:21] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:21] * LFlare (~LFlare@unaffiliated/lflare) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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[17:23] <OpenSorceress> akk in our case, we have to incorporate the pi expressly because the primary computing module, if you will, is a weirdass architecture that nobody supports and a critical sensor is proprietary
[17:23] <OpenSorceress> they won't give us the sources, they want a hundred grand to cross compile the thing, or we can use an R-pi to talk to the sensor and then relay that beck to the main module
[17:24] * dj_pi (~dj_pi@d4-50-221-173.col.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[17:24] * whysthatso (~whysthats@206-107-196-88.dyn.estpak.ee) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:25] <akk> Ugh, companies that deliberately make it hard to use their hardware.
[17:26] * learningc (~learningc@ has joined #raspberrypi
[17:26] <OpenSorceress> hardware companies, no less
[17:26] * mgottschlag (~quassel@reactos/tester/phoenix64) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[17:29] <morfin> can RPI connect to WiFi and be hostpot same time?>
[17:31] <BurtyB> morfin, yes
[17:32] * defsdoor (~Andrew@cpc120600-sutt6-2-0-cust232.19-1.cable.virginm.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:32] * Dimik (~Dimik@ool-2f1499e1.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[17:32] <morfin> end-user has some issues with configuring kiosk because it could be either be connected to WiFi or be a hotspot
[17:34] * sublevel (~sublevel@gateway/tor-sasl/sublevel) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[18:03] * Haxxa (~Harrison@180-150-30-18.NBN.mel.aussiebb.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:10] * Alina-malina (~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:11] <Alina-malina> i know i might already ask this question, but is there really noway to connect my creative sound card to rpi anyhow? i need my nice sound and the sound from my laptop is crap, could it be done with rpi3?
[18:12] <Rickta59> you are asking about a pci bus card that goes into a desktop?
[18:12] <Alina-malina> yes
[18:12] * mike_t (~mike_t@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[18:12] <Rickta59> does your rpi have pci slot?
[18:12] <Alina-malina> its regular rpi3 mode b+
[18:13] <Rickta59> do you mean is there a pci adapater for rpi boards?
[18:13] <Rickta59> adapter
[18:13] <Alina-malina> i guess so
[18:13] <Rickta59> are you sure it is pci and not isa?
[18:14] <Rickta59> which creative sound card?
[18:14] <Alina-malina> yes its for desktop
[18:14] <Rickta59> i have some creative boards from the 90s that are ISA
[18:14] * davr0s (~textual@host109-156-49-67.range109-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[18:14] <Alina-malina> no its pci
[18:14] <Alina-malina> what you mean isa?
[18:15] <Rickta59> it was the PC bus technology before PCI .. ISA bus
[18:15] <Rickta59> there is no external bus on the RPI, aside from spi, i2c and ttl usart
[18:15] <Rickta59> well there is the camera thing
[18:15] <Alina-malina> well its for creative 5.1
[18:16] <Alina-malina> so its pci
[18:16] <Rickta59> http://www.techpartswarehouse.com/product/DE-0R533-Dell-Creative-Labs-Sound-Blaster-Live-SB0200-5-1-PCI-Sound-Card-17114.cfm that one?
[18:16] <Alina-malina> ah let me check hold on
[18:17] <Alina-malina> ye
[18:17] * d0rm0us3 sees Rube Goldberg appearing
[18:17] <Rickta59> there are like 10 different versions of that
[18:17] <Rickta59> is that the specific model you have?
[18:17] * clearcasting (~clearcast@ has joined #raspberrypi
[18:18] <Alina-malina> model: SB0220
[18:18] <Rickta59> so .. the problem is .. PCI is either a 32 bit or 64 bit bus
[18:18] <Rickta59> where are going to get 32 pins on the rpi?
[18:18] <Rickta59> that aren't doing something else
[18:19] <Rickta59> btw .. sb0220 was the answer to which creative sound card
[18:19] * binaryhermit (~binaryher@unaffiliated/binaryhermit) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
[18:19] <Alina-malina> what?
[18:19] <Alina-malina> sb0220 is the model
[18:19] <Alina-malina> so its 32bit?
[18:20] <Rickta59> i don't know how many pins are on the card edge that go to something?
[18:20] <Alina-malina> you mean the slot pins?
[18:20] <Rickta59> you are going to have to provide a signal/power and ground for each pin that is being used
[18:20] * binaryhermit (~binaryher@unaffiliated/binaryhermit) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:21] <Alina-malina> umm no i am going to use only 1 output jack
[18:21] <Alina-malina> not all 5.1
[18:21] <Alina-malina> and maybe the mic
[18:21] <stiv> just get a usb sound module. easier than re-implementing the bus protocol
[18:21] <Alina-malina> ye mic too
[18:21] <Rickta59> how is the rpi going to provide the required pci data?
[18:22] <Alina-malina> stiv, like those cheap usb to jack ones?
[18:22] * whysthatso (~whysthats@206-107-196-88.dyn.estpak.ee) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:22] <stiv> they come in all levels from cheap stuff to pro audio
[18:23] <Rickta59> even then, getting one doesn't mean there is an rpi usb driver for it
[18:23] <stiv> i'd suspect the pi isn't real-timey enough to drive a fake pci bus reliably
[18:23] * sublevel (~sublevel@gateway/tor-sasl/sublevel) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[18:23] <Alina-malina> ok
[18:23] <Rickta59> * i was trying to get Alina-malina to understand that
[18:25] <Alina-malina> eh useless crap, why i even have that stuff here...
[18:26] <friendofafriend> There's some boards out there that could be coaxed into using your PCI card.
[18:27] <Alina-malina> like those ryzers friendoffather?
[18:27] <friendofafriend> There are PCI to PCIe boards like this one. https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Slot-Extension/PCI-Express-to-PCI-Adapter-Card~PEX1PCI1
[18:28] <Alina-malina> how you going to connect it to rpi?
[18:28] * davr0s (~textual@host109-156-49-67.range109-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:28] <Alina-malina> 60 bucks ridiculous...could get a nice headphones from china lol
[18:29] <friendofafriend> Just an example, they're $8 shipped to the US on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/p/Pci-express-Pci-e-to-PCI-Bus-Riser-Card-Adapter-Converter-High-Efficiency-1pc/8003348056https://www.ebay.com/p/Pci-express-Pci-e-to-PCI-Bus-Riser-Card-Adapter-Converter-High-Efficiency-1pc/8003348056
[18:33] <friendofafriend> While, alas, the Pi doesn't have PCIe, there are a number of low-cost SBCs that do.
[18:34] <friendofafriend> The RockPro64 and RockPi, also some Pogoplugs.
[18:34] <friendofafriend> And then there are some OpenWRT-compatible routers with mini-PCIe slots.
[18:35] <Alina-malina> nah, i think it doesnt worth to try
[18:36] <Alina-malina> maybe i could connect it to my laptop, but doesnt worth it either
[18:36] <Alina-malina> will just find some cheap 1055 board and some cheap cpu and plug it all together
[18:36] <Alina-malina> 1055lga i mean
[18:36] <friendofafriend> With that ebay adapter and an extension cable, you can get it working in a laptop with mini-PCIe for sure.
[18:37] <Alina-malina> nah i dont want to do that with my laptop
[18:37] * sublevel (~sublevel@gateway/tor-sasl/sublevel) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:39] <friendofafriend> But with all the nice Raspberry Pi DACs, not worth the bother. This one is $4. https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCM5102A-DAC-Decoder-I2S-32bit-Player-Module-Beyond-ES9023-PCM1794-Raspberry-Pi/401192259164
[18:39] <friendofafriend> Does 24-bit/192KHz. Pretty crazy.
[18:40] <Alina-malina> lol tiny sound blaster
[18:41] <friendofafriend> Yeah, I think I just sold myself on one. xP
[18:42] <Alina-malina> lol
[18:43] <Alina-malina> well i have this thing building the rpi computer lol, but some parts are on the way i ordered, so its unfinished, i thought i could have some fun with sound card, but looks like easier just to connect that 5.1 system to rpi directly via audio jack and make nice media center
[18:45] <friendofafriend> Oh, you need 5.1 output? You're back to a USB sound card then, I think.
[18:45] <Alina-malina> no no 5.1
[18:45] <Alina-malina> i only need 1 channel to use
[18:46] <Alina-malina> since i just use the 2.1 like
[18:46] <Alina-malina> so 1 audio jack is ok
[18:46] <Alina-malina> there are 3 channels
[18:46] <Alina-malina> but i only use 1
[18:46] <friendofafriend> I've got this USB port replicator for laptops that has 5.1, Ethernet, a serial, and a parallel port. https://www.parts-people.com/index.php?action=item&id=4177
[18:47] <Alina-malina> lol what the hell is this
[18:47] <friendofafriend> Not that you'd spend $20 on it, but you could likely find something similar. It's very handy for a Pi Zero board.
[18:48] <friendofafriend> (I just hot glued my Raspi Zero to the top.)
[18:48] <Alina-malina> ah i see
[18:50] <Alina-malina> also i order some bluetooth controller to solder into my car audio, so i could use my rpi to interact to it
[18:50] <Alina-malina> cant wait for it to arrive
[18:50] * learningc (~learningc@ Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[18:50] <friendofafriend> That's very exciting! What a world of gizmos we live in! :)
[18:50] <Alina-malina> i have nice 14 inch display so i am going to make a tablet alike computer with ssd ri and that display it the plexiglass
[18:50] <Alina-malina> with archlinux
[18:51] <Alina-malina> so i will have that thing with me in car
[18:51] <Alina-malina> it will be my small hacking station
[18:51] <davr0s> greetings,
[18:51] <davr0s> does 'globalmenu' work on any R-Pi desktop,
[18:51] <Alina-malina> project just not ready, because not enough money to buy few things, but basically it wlil be ready next week i think
[18:52] * redstarcomrade (~quassel@cpe-104-175-255-182.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:52] <Alina-malina> oh also i am going to mount there laptop batteries so my rpi3b+ be autonomous
[18:52] <davr0s> conversely do any of the 'menubar-less' 'header-bar' type DEs work on it
[18:52] * Syliss (~Syliss@ has joined #raspberrypi
[18:53] <akk> davr0s: Any Linux window manager or desktop should work. Googling, it looks like "globalmenu" is part of xfce?
[18:54] <davr0s> last time i tried i got XFWM but i didn't find XFCE itself in the packages. I suppose it could be a case of user contribution required..
[18:54] <davr0s> i thought i'd ask before digging around incase anyone else happens to use it
[18:56] <friendofafriend> Using X without a WM isn't completely terrible.
[18:56] <davr0s> hah i'm aware of a commandline utility to move the windows, what is it wmctrl?
[18:56] <davr0s> i'm ok with minimalist WMs
[18:56] <davr0s> retro charm
[18:57] * Cthulhux uses dwm on gentoo
[18:57] * Tobbi (~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi) has joined #raspberrypi
[18:57] <Cthulhux> sadly, there is no fully functional rio for linux/unix/bsd
[18:57] <davr0s> but for some reason i've got a really deep obsession wiht globalmenu , and another retro fascination with the tear-off menus on NeXTstep ( (probably because its just different)
[18:57] <Cthulhux> because x doesn't support the "replace window contents" logic
[18:57] <Cthulhux> :(
[18:58] <Cthulhux> davr0s, nextstep was one of the least shitty desktops in the 90s <3
[18:58] <davr0s> its not just me haha
[18:58] * clackety (~clackety@gateway/tor-sasl/clackety) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[18:58] <Cthulhux> i always have a version of window maker whenever i can. if dwm is broken or something
[18:58] <Cthulhux> or i just feel like using it
[18:59] <Cthulhux> which happens every few weeks :)
[18:59] <davr0s> i love those menus, and the columns file manager. now this is why i'm addicted to OSX. these are seemingly simple things .. it should be possible to break the addiction
[18:59] <davr0s> (i wonder what it would take to get a real emulation of the NeXTstep style menu)
[18:59] <Cthulhux> ha, yes. the nextstep heritage of macos is probably a good reason to like that. (but macos is much too animated for me)
[18:59] <Cthulhux> i tried a columns file manager on windows a while ago, "one commander". it is .. weird
[19:00] <davr0s> just checking you ahve the same definiton of columns - the nextstep reference should nail it
[19:00] <Cthulhux> yup
[19:00] <davr0s> the thing where each column is one directory level
[19:00] <Cthulhux> this: https://i.imgur.com/Qy3Mccs.png
[19:00] <Cthulhux> screenshot from just now
[19:00] * erm3nda (~erm3nda@96.red-80-33-109.staticip.rima-tde.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:01] <davr0s> ok thats it for sure
[19:01] <Cthulhux> it feels wrong on windows, to be honest
[19:01] <Cthulhux> ;-)
[19:01] * clackety (~clackety@gateway/tor-sasl/clackety) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:01] <davr0s> and it sort of alludes to a problem if you have very unbalanced trees, but .. i still seem obsessed with it
[19:01] * ExtraCrispy (~ExtraCris@gateway/tor-sasl/extracrispy) Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[19:01] <davr0s> maybe i need a psychiatrist
[19:01] <Cthulhux> i got used to OFMs a while ago
[19:01] <davr0s> these two things obsess me far more than their technical value
[19:01] <Cthulhux> mostly total commander
[19:02] <davr0s> OFM=?
[19:02] <Cthulhux> (but speedcommander is sweet as well)
[19:02] <Cthulhux> orthodox file managers
[19:02] <Cthulhux> "like norton" ;-)
[19:02] <Cthulhux> definition: http://www.softpanorama.org/OFM/index.shtml
[19:02] * chen (~fury@pipe.bannerfree.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:03] <davr0s> i'm wondering if the 'menu-less' design trend could save me from the mac but i find gnome stuff hideous generally these days
[19:03] <davr0s> (the 'header bar' idea). it sort of makes sense but..
[19:03] * azizLIGHT (~azizLIGHT@unaffiliated/azizlight) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[19:03] <Cthulhux> gnome stuff has been hideous since its initial version
[19:03] <davr0s> part of what i like about global menu is: declutter.
[19:03] <Cthulhux> i never liked gnome
[19:03] <Cthulhux> too mac-ish
[19:03] <davr0s> basically you can have menu windows open for reference, but you only have the menu bar for the current focussed window. that to me is declutter. and it's always full size
[19:04] <davr0s> the opposite being windows cluttered with many contorls
[19:04] <Cthulhux> the first thing i usually disable in applications are toolbars
[19:04] <davr0s> i've always despised the way windows did it
[19:05] <davr0s> it might be because i went amiga->pc->mac
[19:05] <davr0s> with apple ditching opengl (and not having official vulkan support) its sort of an alarmbell ringing ... "quit mac addiction"
[19:05] <davr0s> they have me on a few simple things ...
[19:06] <Cthulhux> i had to use a macbook during 2012 and 2013 for my work
[19:06] <akk> It's sad how much linux UIs have copied Windows.
[19:06] <Cthulhux> so lucky to have quit :x
[19:07] <davr0s> to be fair more people learn windows
[19:07] <Cthulhux> akk, it's sad how few linux UIs have copied solaris, actually. both xfce and kde started as a CDE clone - and then they broke it :(
[19:07] * Cthulhux has been a windows user since 1996 and does not plan to make anything else his main workstation ever.
[19:07] <akk> Cthulhux: Solaris was okay but I liked Irix's UI better.
[19:08] <Cthulhux> solaris is still alive (somewhat :-)), irix is dead
[19:08] <Cthulhux> point for solaris.
[19:08] <akk> Solaris isn't very alive. :)
[19:08] <Cthulhux> solaris is kept on life support
[19:08] <Cthulhux> opensolaris (illumos) is very alive :)
[19:08] <Cthulhux> and has a lovely, very engaged community
[19:08] <akk> Solaris had a bigger, smarter company behind it so it lasted far longer.
[19:08] <Cthulhux> and less 12-year-old kids than linux
[19:09] <akk> (still not smart enough, though)
[19:09] <Cthulhux> yup
[19:09] <Cthulhux> being bought by oracle is not really smart
[19:09] <Cthulhux> i mean, it could have been worse, it could have been corel :D
[19:09] <Cthulhux> but oracle... oh man
[19:09] <davr0s> its a shame PIXEL disables desktops, instead of trying to tame desktops with alt-tab customization etc
[19:10] <Cthulhux> oracle employees are the only group of people who deserve to be slapped in the face
[19:10] <Cthulhux> they are part of the worst thing that could happen to the most innovative IT company.
[19:10] <Cthulhux> slap an oracle employee today!
[19:11] <davr0s> imagine if the desktops were managed - this is one thng gnome3 does manage to do , i.e. 'there is always 1 empty desktop'. ('hide everyhing' = 'go to the empty desktop', maximize should be 'put somethig on it's own desktop' , etc
[19:11] <Rickta59> i used to use blackbox wm a lot .. i'm settled on lubuntu
[19:11] <Rickta59> blackbox is about a minimal as you can get
[19:11] <davr0s> xfce/xfwm is my favourite linux desktop environment last time i tried.
[19:11] <Cthulhux> *buntu seems to me like "i want windows but i don't want to confess that"
[19:11] <davr0s> just hte right balance between minimal and features.
[19:11] <Cthulhux> all of them, honestly
[19:12] <davr0s> dont give windows a monopoly on those features
[19:12] <Cthulhux> i heard the newest shiny bling thing on linux is flatpak, where you basically have an installer that you can double-click
[19:12] <davr0s> or even the mac. there wwere lots of gui machines
[19:12] <Rickta59> i just have a bunch of xterms opened, a web browser and arduino
[19:12] <Cthulhux> ... like setup.exe
[19:12] <Cthulhux> :x
[19:12] <akk> I'm an openbox user myself, been happy with it for years, don't need no steenkin taskbars.
[19:12] <Cthulhux> Rickta59, in that case, *buntu is overkill for you.
[19:13] <davr0s> i use emacs aswell which is sort of an os within an os..
[19:13] <Rickta59> it is but i don't have to do anything on the rare occasion i want to configure something
[19:13] <gordonDrogon> I've been using xfce4 for over 6 years or so now. fvwm2 for over 15 before that.
[19:13] <akk> Cthulhux: flatpak is a nice idea, bundle needed libraries along with an app, but I found it didn't work on debian stable.
[19:13] <Rickta59> i think lubuntu uses xfce underneath so it is pretty lightweiht
[19:13] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[19:13] <Cthulhux> davr0s, that's not even a joke, given that (at least GNU) emacs is, in fact, a lisp machine emulator.
[19:13] <davr0s> hell i shouldnt' care about the DE. you're right. just emacs ,terminal , browser.. should be enough. but where is this sodding Mac addiction coming from
[19:13] <akk> xfce isn't all that lightweight, maybe a little lighter than gnome or kde.
[19:14] <Cthulhux> akk, flatpak is basically "windows setup.exe for non-windows"
[19:14] <Cthulhux> *shrugs*
[19:14] <davr0s> akk its light compared to the unity deskotp / gnomeshell
[19:14] <Rickta59> compared to the ubuntu wm it is a feather akk
[19:14] * xvnvx (~xvnvx@unaffiliated/xvnvx) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:14] <davr0s> thats why i say balance rather than light
[19:14] <Cthulhux> there's not much more lightweight than dwm
[19:15] <Rickta59> dwm .. dumb wm?
[19:15] <Cthulhux> dynamic window manager
[19:15] * s8548a (~s8548a@unaffiliated/s8548a) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[19:15] <Rickta59> i take that back lubuntu uses LXDE
[19:15] <Cthulhux> https://dwm.suckless.org/
[19:15] <davr0s> i just need to code a columns file-browser in elisp... then i'm sorted anywhere
[19:16] <Rickta59> i run my pi headless and just display on my desktop
[19:16] <Cthulhux> davr0s, https://github.com/ralesi/ranger.el
[19:16] <Cthulhux> ;-)
[19:16] * uks (~uksio@p200300CB1BD8E33198BE9888FEB122E9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[19:17] <davr0s> ranger if its what i think is nearly there but i seem to remmber it being a fixed number of levels.
[19:17] <Cthulhux> it would probably be easier to patch that instead of writing your own
[19:17] <davr0s> that does look ok
[19:17] <akk> Actually I do what Rickta59 does, run the pi headless, and if I need any X stuff I ssh -X into it.
[19:18] <Cthulhux> elisp is not quite a good lisp though, IMO. we've been waiting for guile emacs for years now
[19:18] <Cthulhux> :x
[19:18] <davr0s> ah i know what you mean
[19:18] <Rickta59> arduino on an rpi2 displaying on my desktop is fairly usable
[19:18] * Tobbi (~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[19:19] <Rickta59> so i save all the memory that normally would be sucked up by the gui on the rpi
[19:19] <akk> I don't even run the arduino IDE, I use makefiles and commandline.
[19:19] <Cthulhux> Rickta59, one of the reasons why i adore the 9pi project: a remote GUI without any X
[19:19] <Cthulhux> :-D
[19:19] <Rickta59> 9pi?
[19:20] <Cthulhux> plan 9 for the rpi
[19:20] <Rickta59> ah
[19:20] <Rickta59> bad 50s sci fi
[19:20] <Cthulhux> https://bendyworks.com/blog/getting-plan-9-running-on-the-raspberry-pi
[19:21] <Rickta59> i used to work for AT&T when that stuff started appearing
[19:21] <Cthulhux> AT&T had so much capacity
[19:21] <Rickta59> we were all on dumb serial terminals
[19:21] <Cthulhux> another history thing that's sad: google took all the good bell devs
[19:21] <Cthulhux> :x
[19:22] * sadsfae loves XFCE
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[19:35] <davr0s> maybe i should spend more time on 4k monitors to lose the globalmenu advantage
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[19:46] <sadsfae> anything beyond 1080p is too squinty for these old eyes
[19:47] <erm3nda> plan 9? never heard
[19:47] <erm3nda> plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/ not working
[19:47] <erm3nda> should anyone go with something that even has docs published?
[19:47] <erm3nda> doesn't even
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[19:47] <erm3nda> Cthulhux, do you know if that is still alive?
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[19:50] <erm3nda> Cthulhux, do you really use p9 for some project?
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[19:52] <Cthulhux> plan 9 is semi-active
[19:52] <Cthulhux> it gets patches every now and then
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[19:53] <Cthulhux> there are quite active forks of it, e.g. jehanne and harvey os (both of which are running on my windows for various reasons)
[19:53] <Syliss> damn it, i lost all my raspberry pi’s in the campfire in cali
[19:53] <Cthulhux> i use sam as my daily text editor at work
[19:53] <Syliss> i just remembered
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[20:01] <Rickta59> so do you have a web browser in your 9pi Cthulhux ?
[20:01] <Cthulhux> there are no good web browsers for it yet.
[20:01] <Rickta59> :) .. linux circa 1999
[20:02] * Keanu73 (~Keanu73@2ProIntl/User/Geek/Keanu73) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:02] <Cthulhux> :) .. nextstep circa 1992
[20:02] <Cthulhux> now what? :p
[20:02] <Rickta59> i guess you kick out the pepsi guy
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[20:27] <chris_99> Hey, i'm just wondering has anyone here used pysdl2 on the PI, or have any recommendations for gfx libs that will work without X? Also would there be any difference in performance graphics-wise without X, or with X?
[20:27] <gordonDrogon> I've used sdl1.3 on pi - console and X. performance is the same.
[20:28] <chris_99> ah cool thanks
[20:28] <gordonDrogon> sdl2 on the Pi is accelerated I think
[20:28] <chris_99> for both X and without X?
[20:29] <gordonDrogon> not sure - I think it may not work on the console - that was the case early on (I think).
[20:30] <chris_99> ah, i'm not terribly au fait with how X works, but i guess there may be a way to run X without a windowmanager and just my python program?
[20:30] <gordonDrogon> yes.
[20:30] <chris_99> cool, is there a name for doing that? or is there something you'd recommend looking at re. that?
[20:31] <gordonDrogon> I don't know about the python part though. All my SDL stuff is for BASIC.
[20:31] * TheFatherMind (~TheFather@cpe-104-34-204-52.socal.res.rr.com) Quit ()
[20:31] <chris_99> but you use it via X then?
[20:31] <gordonDrogon> with and without. 1.3 works just fine.
[20:31] <gordonDrogon> (although there is a minor keyboard mapping issue on the console, but it's minor)
[20:32] <chris_99> oh - https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-run-x-applications-without-a-desktop-or-a-wm that seems easy enough heh
[20:33] <gordonDrogon> give it a go...
[20:33] <gordonDrogon> you might want to make sure you application goes full-screen as from what I recall, you don't get any window decorations, etc.
[20:33] <chris_99> ah yeah true
[20:34] <chris_99> i'm gonna start knocking up an SDL application for that stop-frame animation thingy
[20:34] <gordonDrogon> ok.
[20:34] <gordonDrogon> hm. I used a linear video editor that was written in python once upon a time. what was it called....
[20:34] * gordonDrogon ponders
[20:35] <chris_99> hmm, interesting
[20:35] <gordonDrogon> openShot...
[20:36] <chris_99> cool
[20:36] <chris_99> oh next question, any recommendation for GPIOy stuff with python?
[20:36] <gordonDrogon> there are a few python GPIO libraries.
[20:37] <gordonDrogon> but I don't do python, so couldn't recommend one. I only do BASIC (and C)
[20:37] <chris_99> gotcha, will have a looky at whats out there
[20:37] <chris_99> oh i was thinking of getting a spectrum heh, to play with the basic stuff
[20:38] <gordonDrogon> as in ZX Spectrum?
[20:38] <chris_99> i was looking at the c64 mini, however it turns out that has a fake keyboard!
[20:38] <chris_99> yeah zx spectrum
[20:38] * stiv guesses: prolly pip install something-with-wiring-in-the-name
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[20:38] <chris_99> heh
[20:38] <stiv> not at the pi at the moment
[20:38] <gordonDrogon> stiv, rpi.gpio and rpizero are 2 python ones I have heard of. there are others. wiringPi has some python wrappers, but who knows.
[20:39] <chris_99> i'm also kind of curious with old consoles about hacking them slightly to get digital gfx output
[20:39] <gordonDrogon> the issue with getting an old Spectrum is the keyboard and it working or not.
[20:39] <chris_99> ah yeah i'd be careful to get one that says it works, from fleabay
[20:39] <gordonDrogon> the bbc micro had digital output - red (on/off), green (on/off) and blue (on/off). 8 colours :)
[20:40] <chris_99> not just composite/ coax output then?
[20:41] <gordonDrogon> the beeb has ttl rgb and composite co-ax
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[20:41] <chris_99> ooh
[20:41] <chris_99> i did not know that
[20:41] <gordonDrogon> and a 6502 processor running at 2Mhz.
[20:42] <gordonDrogon> they are plentifull on ebay, but most will blow up after a while unless the PSU has been recapped.
[20:42] <gordonDrogon> http://zx.zigg.net/ has some Spectrum resources, etc. that's run by an old friend of mine.
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[20:43] <gordonDrogon> and have a look at "the 8-bit guy" for a lot of videos and ideas of older stuff.
[20:43] <chris_99> oh yeah i as watching his video on the c64 mini
[20:44] <chris_99> *was watching
[20:44] <gordonDrogon> right. you need a ps/2 keyboard for it?
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[20:45] <chris_99> i think it uses usb, but i'm not gonna get it after finding the keyboard isn't real :(
[20:45] <gordonDrogon> ok
[20:45] <gordonDrogon> I'm not into the C64, but I suspect there are lots on ebay too.
[20:45] <chris_99> that video from your friends site is interesting
[20:46] <gordonDrogon> which video?
[20:46] <chris_99> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzgCmldm2H4
[20:47] <gordonDrogon> ah right.
[20:48] <chris_99> for some reason i quite fancy one of those sinclair bike things heh
[20:48] <gordonDrogon> C5?
[20:48] <chris_99> yeah
[20:50] <gordonDrogon> good luck there, then :)
[20:50] <gordonDrogon> hm. supper time. biab.
[20:51] * cccyRegeaneWolfe (cccyRegean@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/cccyregeanewolfe) has joined #raspberrypi
[20:51] <chris_99> bon appetit
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[21:03] <chris_99> ooh - https://www.bytedelight.com/?product=zx-hd-hdmi-interface-with-ulaplus
[21:03] <chris_99> that uses a pi-zero heh too
[21:03] <FireHopper> afternoon all
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[21:09] <gordonDrogon> there are emulators for most old consoles for the Pi.
[21:11] <chris_99> yeah, that's just using the pi for the hdmi though interestingly, and presumably converting digital gfx output from the speccy via the pi to hdmi heh
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[21:22] <chris_99> looks like it works pretty well from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN9bXtiDmxg
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[21:23] <fasm> Hello!
[21:23] <fasm> Running alpine on my rpi2 and having this strange issue with Ralink dongle: http://ix.io/1rvV
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[21:25] <gordonDrogon> fasm, the alpine email program?
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[21:25] <fasm> gordonDrogon: i forgot that was a thing. no, alpine linudx
[21:26] <gordonDrogon> oh, alpine linux.
[21:26] <gordonDrogon> I only use Pi foundation dongles now. they just work.
[21:27] <gordonDrogon> (I do use the alpine email program though)
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[21:53] <Cthulhux> alpine (the mail program) is quite nice. i wish i wouldn't prefer gnus.
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[21:55] <gordonDrogon> I've used alpine (& pine before it) for probably over 25 years now.
[21:55] <Cthulhux> is alpine still being developed? i've read that re-alpine has pretty much replaced it
[21:57] <gordonDrogon> don't know, don't care - it works for me right now and I don't appear to need more bloat/features.
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[22:22] * sadsfae real happy with neomutt
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[23:02] * dj_pi (~dj_pi@d4-50-221-173.col.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[23:03] * patr0clus (~s3nd1v0g1@unaffiliated/patr0clus) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1)
[23:06] * yohnnyjoe (~yohnnyjoe@c-73-129-2-10.hsd1.dc.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: yohnnyjoe)
[23:07] * fjavier (~fjavier@ has joined #raspberrypi
[23:11] * tvm (~tvm@router-sever1-nat-m.pilsfree.net) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:12] * Killerkid (Killerkid@unaffiliated/killerkid) Quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
[23:13] * vinnix (~vinnix@unaffiliated/vinnix) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[23:14] * vinnix (~vinnix@unaffiliated/vinnix) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:14] * redstarcomrade (~quassel@cpe-104-175-255-182.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:15] <morfin> hmm i started kiosk with only X without DE/WM
[23:15] * TheFatherMind (~TheFather@cpe-104-34-204-52.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:17] * Smeef (~deathonat@unaffiliated/smeef) Quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
[23:17] <morfin> using 'ExecStart=-/usr/bin/agetty --autologin pi --noclear %I $TERM' and starting xinit in ~/.bash_profile and ~/.xinitrc running all required operations
[23:18] * Bambus (~Bambus@p200300DF87059C00349172FFFE866C87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:20] * vinnix (~vinnix@unaffiliated/vinnix) Quit (Quit: leaving)
[23:21] * Envil (~envil@55d4ec0a.access.ecotel.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:23] * frikinz (~me@unaffiliated/luser) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:25] * toomin (~Slartibar@unaffiliated/toomin) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:25] * TheFatherMind (~TheFather@cpe-104-34-204-52.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[23:28] * davr0s (~textual@host109-156-49-67.range109-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[23:28] * Lorduncan (~Thunderbi@ has joined #raspberrypi
[23:31] * binaryhermit (~binaryher@unaffiliated/binaryhermit) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:31] * lastaid_ (d4ca61a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[23:34] * echoSMILE (~echoSMILE@unaffiliated/echosmile) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:34] * chris349 (~office@104-12-70-21.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:36] * Lorduncan (~Thunderbi@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:38] * Bambus (~Bambus@p200300DF87059C00349172FFFE866C87.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Quit: Bye)
[23:39] * FireHopper yawns and flops, bored
[23:39] * vinnix (~vinnix@unaffiliated/vinnix) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:40] * FireHopper has to figure out how to get a ham tech lic, got myself a ham transciever, cant transmit without a lic.
[23:42] <mfa298> aiui you've just done the hardest part of it by saying you want a tecnnician license although that's not really on-topic for #raspberrypi
[23:42] * defsdoor (~Andrew@cpc120600-sutt6-2-0-cust232.19-1.cable.virginm.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:42] * MacGeek (~BSD@host28-17-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[23:44] * skunkz (~skunkz@ec2-35-180-86-21.eu-west-3.compute.amazonaws.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:44] * sublevel (~sublevel@gateway/tor-sasl/sublevel) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:45] * sublevel (~sublevel@gateway/tor-sasl/sublevel) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:47] * Gathis (~TheBlack@unaffiliated/gathis) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:47] <FireHopper> nope its not, although, there isnt any ontopic chat going on here anyway. :)
[23:48] <FireHopper> not at the moment anyway
[23:50] * Toadisattva (~Toadisatt@gateway/tor-sasl/toadisattva) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:50] * Toadisattva (~Toadisatt@gateway/tor-sasl/toadisattva) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:51] * TheFatherMind (~TheFather@cpe-104-34-204-52.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #raspberrypi
[23:52] * whysthatso (~whysthats@206-107-196-88.dyn.estpak.ee) Quit (Quit: whysthatso)
[23:52] * clemens3 (~clemens@mx.eniso-partners.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[23:55] * TheFatherMind (~TheFather@cpe-104-34-204-52.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Client Quit)
[23:56] * expert975 (~expert975@ has joined #raspberrypi
[23:57] * expert975 (~expert975@ has left #raspberrypi

These logs were automatically created by RaspberryPiBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.